[python-advocacy] Python culture clash complaint

[Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T]

On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 11:00 PM, Tennessee Leeuwenburg
<tleeuwenburg at gmail.com> wrote:
> I wouldn't say it was diatribe. I found myself agreeing with many of his
> comments, and it's a shame that presenting things in a civil manner is
> thought of as being 'touchy feely'.
But, I don't consider the passage to be uncivil, I believe it to be
somewhat funny.

> How the docs are written is an act of the community, ergo how someone reacts
> to the docs is also a reaction to the community.
>
> While a competitive / combative style of communication gives some people a
> real buzz, and is something they enjoy, for others it is different. This is,
> basically, why most official documentation tends to adopt a somewhat dry and
> squeaky-clean tone. It's not because there's anyone who thinks it's
> particularly wonderful, but because it's just not worth pissing people off.
I wouldn't say combative, dry wit is a more accurate description.  A
hallmark of Monty Python.  And I agree with you that most
documentation is offensively boring.

> Consider his quote from PEP-8:
>
> The second objection is typically cast as: "I am really telling a sequence
> to join its members together with a string constant". Sadly, you aren't.
>
> Well, I can see how that would piss someone off. So why do it? For the
> kicks? For the buzz that can come from standing up for the rightness of
> things? I just don't see any point. It really doesn't matter that much
> whether the call is delimiter.join(list) or list.join(delimiter). So I don't
> think anyone needs to be told that it's sad how they can't see the
> advantages in one particular method.
I do not believe that was ever the intent by the writer.   In fact, I
have never witnessed or read anything demeaning from anyone in the
community -- especially those that are very active in it, so to make
the jump that some one is attempting to be demeaning in what they
wrote in the documentation is hard to do.  While I respect your
opinion that the tone of that particular section of the docs needs to
be modified because not everyone might not read it in the same light,
I do not agree with your assertion about its intent.

Further, it doesn't just end with "...sadly, you aren't."  It
continues on with the reasoning.
http://www.python.org/doc/faq/general/#why-is-join-a-string-method-instead-of-a-list-or-tuple-method
 Here, they explain the .split/.join, unicode/ascii and string module
reasoning for why .join is a string method and not a list method.

>
> Most people, let's face it, have had their share of being crapped on already
> in life. Why add to it?
Wow.

> -Tennessee
Since you found yourself agreeing with the blogger, can you point out
other examples in the docs/faqs that support your view?  Is this a
broader issue with the docs or not?  You have editorial experience
that I do not and I trust that you are better at catching these types
of faux pas, than I.  I contend that at worst, this is an isolated
passage, whose humor may not be universal.  (A travesty, in my
opinion<g>)

Irregardless, if you have a patch for the FAQ, I am confident it would
be accepted.  There is no reason to detract from the fact, that the
people I have interacted with in the Python community have been the
helpful, generous and encouraging.


Regards,

Jeff

>
> On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T <jeffh at dundeemt.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> After reading his diatribe, he is not referring to how he is treated
>> by the community , but rather his commentary is about the docs.  Maybe
>> the truth could be pointed out out in a more touchy-feely manner but
>> it doesn't change the fact of what join does.
>>
>> He then goes on to single out an unnamed irc member about his comment
>> on line length. (PEP8) (And the writer was just lurking, not
>> participating)  As a side note, when I first started with Python I
>> couldn't see why tabs were inferior to spaces -- although it didn't
>> take long for me to amend my ways, wisdom is always gained at a
>> price.<g>  Python doesn't coerce you very much and most times gives
>> you plenty of rope to trip yourself.
>>
>> Maybe I am completely off base, but it appears as if the writer is
>> looking for a way to justify his decision to not like Python.  His
>> remark about "fundamentalist religious methods of conversion" is sheer
>> hyperbole.  He should have led off with that, instead I had to read to
>> the end to confirm what I suspected.
>>
>> -Jeff
>>
>> On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Brad Allen <bradallen137 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Here is a blog from a developer exploring Python but getting frustrated
>> > with
>> > the community attitude, which I find surprising:
>> >
>> >
>> > http://developmentadventures.blogspot.com/2008/05/culture-clash-with-python.html
>> >
>> > Excerpt:
>> >
>> > There is one aspect though that just really clashes with me; the
>> > community
>> > is VERY quick to point out how you're wrong. It doesn't matter about
>> > what,
>> > it's just you're wrong. I've found that most of the time, I am, but
>> > there's
>> > this absoluteist tone that I sense that makes me completely understand
>> > why
>> > the community has the "Pythonista" term applied.
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Hinrichs
>> jeffh at dundeemt.com
>> web: www.dundeemt.com
>> blog: inre.dundeemt.com
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