From iiourov at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  1 00:04:27 2006
From: iiourov at yahoo.com (Ilia Iourovitski)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:04:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Everything Your Professor Failed to Tell You About
	Functional Programming
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90601311317m33c2f396q49ed4172af7abcb5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060131230427.64927.qmail@web53209.mail.yahoo.com>

In Java land those Monads called interceptors
http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/XW/Interceptors


public String invoke() throws Exception {
        if (executed) {
            throw new IllegalStateException("Action has already executed");
        }

        if (interceptors.hasNext()) {
            Interceptor interceptor = (Interceptor) interceptors.next();
            result = interceptor.intercept(this);
        } else {
            result = action.execute();
            executed = true;
        }

        return result;
    }


Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote: On 1/31/06, Danny Yoo  wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> > I wrote an article for "Linux Journal" called "Everything Your Professor
> > Failed to Tell You About Functional Programming".  It's mainly about
> > Haskell, but I thought I'd post it here because a) it's a fun read b) a
> > few of the examples are in Python.  I remain a Python fan(atic).
> > Hopefully some of you will enjoy the article.
>
> Thanks for writing this article!  It looks nice and meaty, and I've always
> wanted to learn more about monads.
>
> (Quick note on the reference to NULL in SQL; C.J. Date definitely doesn't
> like NULL at all; his O'Reilly book "Database in Depth" says that NULLs
> break the relational model and the relational algebra; the violations that
> NULL presents in SQL makes the algebra nonsensical.  So in a sense, NULLs
> do cause his his universe to come crashing down.  *grin*)

Nice ;) hahahaha

Thanks a lot for the feedback!

-jj
_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
Baypiggies at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


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From vigognamarco at infinito.it  Wed Feb  1 14:16:30 2006
From: vigognamarco at infinito.it (vigognamarco at infinito.it)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 14:16:30 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Send characters to other windows
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0602011319140.16966@linux.site>

Hi.
I wrote a python program that opens a window with a button.
The button has a label. The label is "A".
An openoffice wordprocessor (oowriter) window is opened.
I want "send" the character "A" to oowriter when I press my labeled 
button. OOwriter should show the character "A".
Thank you. Bye.

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  2 08:43:36 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 23:43:36 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] FWD:(San Francisco) Snr SWE- MVC GUI Linux GTK Python
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0602012343w1006e3edoc9d664d301bf7424@mail.gmail.com>

This one looks like it should appeal to a lot of BP members.
If interested, Please reply to the email address below

Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 16:24:15 -0800
  From: "Ralph Min" <ralph at connextinc.com>
Subject: (San Francisco)  Snr SWE- MVC GUI Linux GTK Python

Please reference position ID# 4931 when responding
Please reply with a copy of your resume as a Word attachment to:

ralph at connextinc.com

Thorough knowledge of MVC design patterns and significant experience with
GUI toolkit programming in either Java Swing/AWT, Microsoft MFC, or Linux
GTK/QT. Experience with Python and WxWindows/WxPython are highly desired.
Strong knowledge of XML and related technologies and standards including XSD
and XSLT along with SQL and Relational Database systems.
Knowledge of and experience with either Web Services (SOAP, WSDL), XForms,
or BPEL highly desirable.
Minimum of 3 years experience.

Please reference position ID# 4931 when responding
Please reply with a copy of your resume as a Word attachment to:

ralph at connextinc.com


Ralph Min
Account Executive

Connext, Inc.
10557 Jefferson Blvd., #B
<http://maps.google.com/maps?q=10557+Jefferson+Blvd.%2C+%23B%2CCulver+City%2
CCA+90232&hl=en>
Culver City, CA 90232
       Work: 310-279-5546
Fax: 650-887-0404
Email: ralph at connextinc.com
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From Ted.Speers at actel.com  Sun Feb  5 21:30:23 2006
From: Ted.Speers at actel.com (Speers, Ted)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 12:30:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PythonCom ? (connecting to a Visual Basic project)
Message-ID: <D8366D5792B03341B84DB535F866772C93D830@SV-MSG-01.amer.actel.com>

I know how to drive Excel from Python.
 
Anyone know how to drive my Excel Visual Basic Projects from Python?
I'm guessing I just need to know how to fill in the following:
VBProj=win32com.client.Dispatch("????")
 
After accomplishing that feat, what I'd really like to do is write an
Excel macro to run my Python program that does everything else ... but
first things first.
 
Thanks, Ted
 


This information contained or attached to this e-mail may be subject to the Export Administration Regulations (EAR) or the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) and may require an approved export license prior to its export.  An export can include a release or disclosure to a foreign national inside or outside the United States.  Include this notice with any reproduced portion of this information.
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From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  6 00:59:29 2006
From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip)
Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 15:59:29 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PythonCom ? (connecting to a Visual Basic project)
In-Reply-To: <D8366D5792B03341B84DB535F866772C93D830@SV-MSG-01.amer.actel.com>
References: <D8366D5792B03341B84DB535F866772C93D830@SV-MSG-01.amer.actel.com>
Message-ID: <op.s4ix9fu5oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>

I recommend the book

Python Programming On Win32
   Help for Windows Programmers
   By Mark Hammond, Andy Robinson

http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/pythonwin32/

You'll find answer to your question and lot more.

Wai Yip


> I know how to drive Excel from Python.
> Anyone know how to drive my Excel Visual Basic Projects from Python?
> I'm guessing I just need to know how to fill in the following:
> VBProj=win32com.client.Dispatch("????")
> After accomplishing that feat, what I'd really like to do is write an
> Excel macro to run my Python program that does everything else ... but
> first things first.
> Thanks, Ted
>
>
> This information contained or attached to this e-mail may be subject to  
> the Export Administration Regulations (EAR) or the International Traffic  
> in Arms Regulations (ITAR) and may require an approved export license  
> prior to its export.  An export can include a release or disclosure to a  
> foreign national inside or outside the United States.  Include this  
> notice with any reproduced portion of this information.



From marilyn at deliberate.com  Mon Feb  6 16:49:29 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 07:49:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] UCSC Short Python Course
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0602060740520.456-100000@localhost.localdomain>

Hi,

If you know anyone who is looking for some Python Training, you might
point them to this weekend course coming up March 11 and 12.

It's a pretty good deal: $495 in a nice lab in Cupertino.  

The class is motivated by a series of lab exercises, with minimal
lecture.  It's fun.

http://www.ucsc-extension.edu/ucsc/public/category/courseDetails.do?method=load&courseId=3007541&selectedCategoryId=1000075&selectedProgramAreaId=1000171&selectedProgramStreamId=1528553

Thank you!

Marilyn Davis
http://www.deliberate.com/marilyn


From fordlc at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  6 19:23:21 2006
From: fordlc at yahoo.com (Louisa Ford)
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:23:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Participants needed for user feedback study
Message-ID: <20060206182321.33840.qmail@web54403.mail.yahoo.com>

IBM User-Experience will be holding some daytime and
evening user feedback study sessions at the IBM
Silicon Valley Lab in Santa Teresa, California, in
early March to gather feedback from software
developers about their requirements.  We are looking
for software developers with open source development
experience who work for an Independent Software Vendor
(ISV) that develops database applications using open
source technologies. If you meet these requirements
and are interested in participating in this study,
please contact Susan Hamilton at ucdacts at ca.ibm.com
for more details.

From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Mon Feb  6 20:56:56 2006
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:56:56 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Announcement - Thursday, Feb 9, 6 pm
Message-ID: <5538c19b0602061156q629c46f5i4bf80028bced36e7@mail.gmail.com>

I can coordinate dinner at Crepes du Monde in the Bayhill Shopping Center,
several blocks from the IronPort meeting location for this Thursday.

Crepes du Monde has a web site
http://www.lacreperiedumonde.com

and a map
http://www.lacreperiedumonde.com/img/mapimage.gif

Crepes du Monde
815 Cherry Avenue  Suite 16
San Bruno. CA 94066
Phone: 650 589-3778

I've made reservations under "Mahoney" for 6pm Thursday.

If you wish to join us for
dinner please e-mail me by 3 pm Thursday
(earlier is better) so I confirm the headcount.

From walterv at gbbservices.com  Mon Feb  6 21:53:32 2006
From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini)
Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 12:53:32 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU is alive and well
Message-ID: <43E7B74C.1030507@gbbservices.com>

I just thought I'd mention that the local ACCU group is
alive and well and still meeting every month, despite
Reg Charney having left the bay area. And, many of our
talks still involve Python. On April 12 Guido will be
giving a presentation and on June 14 Greg Stein will
talk about Python at Google.

The current list of upcoming talks, also listed at
<http://www.accu-usa.org/Future-Meetings.html>, is

February 8, 2006 - Gregory Murray - An introduction to AJAX
March 15, 2006 - Kevlin Henney - A Critical View of C++ Practices
April 12, 2006 - Guido van Rossum - Python
May 10, 2006 - Scott Atwood - A Gentle Introduction to Unicode
June 14, 2006 - Greg Stein - Python at Google

I've appended the announcement for Wednesday's AJAX talk
for those of you who might be interested.

All the best,

Walter

Walter Vannini
President, Silicon Valley ACCU
<http://www.accu-usa.org/>
<http://www.gbbservices.com/>

Here's the AJAX announcement:

PLEASE NOTE THE CHANGE OF DATE from Tuesdays to Wednesdays

When:      Wednesday, February 8, 2006
Topic:     An introduction to AJAX
Speaker:   Gregory Murray
Time:      7:00pm
Where:     eBay Town Hall (next to PayPal/eBay)
              2161 North First St
              San Jose, CA 95131
Map:       <http://tinyurl.com/cdg5u/>
Cost:      Free
More Info: <http://www.accu-usa.org>

Please note the change of date!! From now on we will be
meeting on a Wednesday, NOT a Tuesday.

AJAX is a technique for using JavaScript to communicate
asynchronously with a server-side component and dynamically
update the source of an HTML page based on the resulting
XML/Text response.

For those who want to read ahead for the talk, Greg
recommends his introductory AJAX article at
<http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/J2EE/AJAX/>

Gregory Murray is a lead engineer at SUN Microsystems.
He is currently the servlet specification lead.
Previously he was a member of the BluePrints team during
which he was responsible for the web tier recommendations.
He has experience with internationalization, web services,
J2SE standalone clients, and AJAX based web clients.
He is coauthor of Designing Enterprise Applications With
the Java 2 Platform, Enterprise Edition and Designing Web
Services With the J2EE 1.4 Platform (Addison-Wesley).

Greg is the author of the AJAX FAQ for the Java Developer.
His blog is at <http://weblogs.java.net/blog/gmurray71/>

The ACCU meets monthly. To suggest topics and speakers please
email Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com



From cuba at iotacenter.org  Mon Feb  6 23:10:21 2006
From: cuba at iotacenter.org (Larry Cuba)
Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:10:21 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Feb 9th meeting
Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20060206140943.02701ec0@postoffice.pacbell.net>



I understand this meeting will be a
preview of talks to be given at Pycon.
Any specifics available as to who will
be speaking on what?

thanks.
Larry C.






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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Feb  7 02:47:15 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:47:15 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: Feb 9, 7:30pm (Ironport)
Message-ID: <20060207014715.GA983@panix.com>

The next meeting of BayPIGgies will be Thurs, February 9 at 7:30pm at
Ironport.

This meeting features PyCon practice talks by Wes Chun, Jimmy Retzlaff,
and possibly others.


BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California)
and Google (Mountain View, California).  For more information and
directions, see http://baypiggies.net/


Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner.  Discussion of
dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list.  

Advance notice:  The March meeting will probably be a PyCon wrap-up.
Please e-mail baypiggies at python.org if you want to suggest an agenda (or
volunteer to give a presentation).
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing."  --Alan Perlis

From wescpy at gmail.com  Tue Feb  7 05:59:34 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 20:59:34 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: Feb 9, 7:30pm (Ironport)
In-Reply-To: <20060207014715.GA983@panix.com>
References: <20060207014715.GA983@panix.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580602062059r456c05d3y56b3cad552c58ebf@mail.gmail.com>

i've updated the web page with this month's talk info.

Jeffrey Harris will be giving an iCal talk, and Jimmy has a py2exe talk.

we still have room for 2 more talks, so if anyone else is delivering
at PyCon, pls step up now.  i'll only preview my talk if no one else
volunteers.

http://baypiggies.net

cheers,
-wesley


> The next meeting of BayPIGgies will be Thurs, February 9 at 7:30pm at
> Ironport.
>
> This meeting features PyCon practice talks by Wes Chun, Jimmy Retzlaff,
> and possibly others.

From keith at kdart.com  Tue Feb  7 15:15:20 2006
From: keith at kdart.com (Keith Dart)
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 06:15:20 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] users of trac SCM
Message-ID: <20060207061520.1503eac3@leviathan.kdart.com>

Greetings all,

I have recently installed the Trac SCM system. This is implemented in
Python. It integrates subversion and bug tracking, obviating the need
for bugzilla (or similar). So far, I really like it. Anyone else here
have experience with it?

Here's my project page:

http://www.dartworks.biz/pynms

PS. I'm moving pyNMS off of sourceforge and onto my own server. 

-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================
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From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Wed Feb  8 16:34:03 2006
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 07:34:03 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner re-Announcement - Thursday, Feb 9, 6 pm
Message-ID: <5538c19b0602080734v2e5d809bveea527020b0b841a@mail.gmail.com>

Unusually low response, so I am reposting this announcement from Monday.

I can coordinate dinner at Crepes du Monde in the Bayhill Shopping Center,
several blocks from the IronPort meeting location for this Thursday.

Crepes du Monde has a web site
http://www.lacreperiedumonde.com

and a map
http://www.lacreperiedumonde.com/img/mapimage.gif

Crepes du Monde
815 Cherry Avenue  Suite 16
San Bruno. CA 94066
Phone: 650 589-3778

I've made reservations under "Mahoney" for 6pm Thursday.

If you wish to join us for
dinner please e-mail me by 3 pm Thursday
(earlier is better) so I confirm the headcount.

From epalmore at pixar.com  Thu Feb  9 00:35:37 2006
From: epalmore at pixar.com (Elizabeth Palmore)
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 15:35:37 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] SWE,
	Production Engineering (3D Computer Graphics) @ Pixar!
Message-ID: <47DD3AA1-3BFF-4253-A7F1-D739BD3A7F5E@pixar.com>

Software Engineer, Production Engineering
Pixar Animation Studios
Emeryville, CA

Pixar Animation Studios combines creative and technical artistry to  
create original stories in the medium of computer animation. Pixar  
has created six of the most successful and beloved animated films of  
all time: Toy Story, A Bug's Life, Toy Story 2, Monsters, Inc.,  
Finding Nemo and The Incredibles. Pixar has won 18 Academy Awards?  
and its six films have grossed more than $3.2 billion at the  
worldwide box office to date. The Northern California studio will  
release its next film, Cars, on June 9, 2006.

Summary of Position:

This is a software engineering position in the Studio Tools  
Department to help support the existing deployments of Pixar's in- 
house movie production software. The primary responsibility of this  
position is to maintain and fix bugs in our proprietary system. This  
is a front line position that requires collaboration with our  
engineering staff, project managers, and production users to maintain  
mission critical software.


  Responsibilities:

? Primarily responsible for the maintenance and support of software  
and/or systems under the guidance of a departmental project lead.
? Works directly with production staff to solve technical challenges  
and debug high priority issues.
? Detailed problem analysis and resolution of issues.
? Triage incoming issues and provide rapid response/resolution.


Qualifications

? Strong software engineering skills with expertise in C and C++
? B.S. degree in computer science, advanced degree preferred.
? 5-7 years of experience in the computer graphics field.
? OpenGL experience preferred.
? Strong 3D math and computer graphics experience
? Linux or UNIX Operating System experience.
? Excellence in problem solving and balancing quick turnaround with  
long-term quality.
? Must be able to work well with a wide range of personality types.
? Must be detail oriented and organized, possess strong communication  
skills, and be able to handle a variety of tasks in an efficient manner.
? Excellent tracking and follow through ability
? Desire to provide excellent customer-service to production staff

To apply please go to www.pixar.com. Click on "Company Info" then  
"Jobs." Please submit resume AND cover letter.

Pixar is an Equal Opportunity Employer.
  

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Feb  9 01:10:17 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 16:10:17 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] SWE,
	Production Engineering (3D Computer Graphics) @ Pixar!
In-Reply-To: <47DD3AA1-3BFF-4253-A7F1-D739BD3A7F5E@pixar.com>
References: <47DD3AA1-3BFF-4253-A7F1-D739BD3A7F5E@pixar.com>
Message-ID: <20060209001017.GA13029@panix.com>

On Wed, Feb 08, 2006, Elizabeth Palmore wrote:
>
> Software Engineer, Production Engineering
> Pixar Animation Studios
> Emeryville, CA

There does not appear to be any Python-specific requirement for this ad.
Please only post jobs with Python content to the BayPIGgies list.  You
can find our policy at

http://baypiggies.net/jobs.html
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing."  --Alan Perlis

From wescpy at gmail.com  Thu Feb  9 09:40:05 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 00:40:05 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: Feb 9, 7:30pm (Ironport)
In-Reply-To: <20060207014715.GA983@panix.com>
References: <20060207014715.GA983@panix.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580602090040o62a4d093u16f22915a9d06e64@mail.gmail.com>

ok everyone, it looks like we have a full lineup.  speakers previewing
their PyCon talks will be: Jeffrey Harris, Jimmy Retzlaff, and Matt
Harrison.  the website has been updated with everyone's talks.  if
there's time leftover, then i can introduce my talk, otherwise i'd be
happy ending on time.  :-)

one change in the venue is that we will be meeting in IronPort's "new"
Dungeon, so rather than going up to the 3rd floor, as soon as you
enter the lobby, look for a (wood-paneled?) door leading downstairs. 
there should be signs around, so keep an eye out for them.

c u all soon!
-- wesley
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2006,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From jxd6 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  9 22:00:02 2006
From: jxd6 at hotmail.com (John J. Dooley)
Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 13:00:02 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Relative Python newbie baypiggies talk wish list
Message-ID: <BAY108-F137AE0FF8884443427A3108F030@phx.gbl>

At the Nov baypiggies meeting someone floated the idea for future meeting(s) 
that would present resources useful to Python newbies. I am not sure what 
was intended but after my own struggle to get my feet wet, I am at the point 
where I sort of know what I don't know.

I have the suspicion that an effective way to learn Python(I am not just 
talking about the core language but to effectively use it in real projects) 
is to undestand "cherry picked" Python projects - those projects that are 
acknowledged success. Perhaps, these projects are old hat and a little 
borring for the Python experts.

Anyway, here is my dream list:

  Twisted Architecture - useful to practically everyone

  Zope 3 Component model - how to structure massive Python projects

  Ajax - Last night I attended the ACCU's Ajax presentation by Greg Murray. 
It pulled in 72, a 5 year record for ACCU SV. This is the oddball in the 
list - it is nearly all legacy (XHTML, CSS, Javscript) so except for the 
approach.

Nevow - Think this is useful but would love to get an overview. Something 
that would let me decide whether this is a "learn now" or "learn later".

  IDEs - A state of the art overview - Even if I swear by  vIm  or emacs, 
when I praise Python to the unwashed the IDE question is not far behind.

Other topics that might be useful: Zope 3 in general, TurboGears.

I am not sure what was intended by "presenting resources" to the newbie, but 
the "case study" approach seems to be working for me. The newbie can learn 
lot by poreing over the Python legacy, and a few presentations could help 
him identify the most "Pythonic" of these.



From stevewedig at gmail.com  Fri Feb 10 00:25:30 2006
From: stevewedig at gmail.com (Steve Wedig)
Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 15:25:30 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Relative Python newbie baypiggies talk wish list
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F137AE0FF8884443427A3108F030@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-F137AE0FF8884443427A3108F030@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <cf1393b20602091525l5891c957q761e5b9306ac172d@mail.gmail.com>

I'd definitely drive up from LA to attend a weekend talk about Zope 3.
Particularly stuff like scaling it and how to take full advantage of
python for webapps.

-Steve

On 2/9/06, John J. Dooley <jxd6 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> At the Nov baypiggies meeting someone floated the idea for future meeting(s)
> that would present resources useful to Python newbies. I am not sure what
> was intended but after my own struggle to get my feet wet, I am at the point
> where I sort of know what I don't know.
>
> I have the suspicion that an effective way to learn Python(I am not just
> talking about the core language but to effectively use it in real projects)
> is to undestand "cherry picked" Python projects - those projects that are
> acknowledged success. Perhaps, these projects are old hat and a little
> borring for the Python experts.
>
> Anyway, here is my dream list:
>
>   Twisted Architecture - useful to practically everyone
>
>   Zope 3 Component model - how to structure massive Python projects
>
>   Ajax - Last night I attended the ACCU's Ajax presentation by Greg Murray.
> It pulled in 72, a 5 year record for ACCU SV. This is the oddball in the
> list - it is nearly all legacy (XHTML, CSS, Javscript) so except for the
> approach.
>
> Nevow - Think this is useful but would love to get an overview. Something
> that would let me decide whether this is a "learn now" or "learn later".
>
>   IDEs - A state of the art overview - Even if I swear by  vIm  or emacs,
> when I praise Python to the unwashed the IDE question is not far behind.
>
> Other topics that might be useful: Zope 3 in general, TurboGears.
>
> I am not sure what was intended by "presenting resources" to the newbie, but
> the "case study" approach seems to be working for me. The newbie can learn
> lot by poreing over the Python legacy, and a few presentations could help
> him identify the most "Pythonic" of these.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 10 01:37:35 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:37:35 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [baypiggies] Anyone carpooling from South Bay this
	evening?
Message-ID: <BAY103-F43F83A6B06335B9BC7440A0020@phx.gbl>


If so, call me XXX-YYYYYYY.
I'll be going from MV/Sunnyvale
Can pass Stanford (Danny?)

Not sure when I'll leave, probably 6-7pm - I'll probably skip the dinner.

Stephen



From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Fri Feb 10 02:09:27 2006
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo)
Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 17:09:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] [baypiggies] Anyone carpooling from South Bay this
 evening?
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F43F83A6B06335B9BC7440A0020@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0602091709160.5811-100000@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>



On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Stephen McInerney wrote:

> If so, call me XXX-YYYYYYY.
> I'll be going from MV/Sunnyvale
> Can pass Stanford (Danny?)
>
> Not sure when I'll leave, probably 6-7pm - I'll probably skip the dinner.

Sorry, can't make it.   But thank you anyway!


From krishna2 at krishna2.com  Fri Feb 10 04:38:57 2006
From: krishna2 at krishna2.com (Krishna Srinivasan)
Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:38:57 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] How to verify if a string is properly encoded in utf-8
	?
Message-ID: <43EC0AD1.4090401@krishna2.com>


Greetings.

A quick question. How can I verify if a given
string is properly encoded in utf-8 ?

The use case is this - I have a web form that
I send with the charset set to utf-8. But it
is possible that the user might change the
encoding and hence when the form gets submitted,
a different character might get back to me.

Thanks,
Krishna.


From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 10 05:01:54 2006
From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip)
Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:01:54 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] How to verify if a string is properly encoded in
	utf-8 ?
In-Reply-To: <43EC0AD1.4090401@krishna2.com>
References: <43EC0AD1.4090401@krishna2.com>
Message-ID: <op.s4qn5gzioiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>


try:
     unicodetext = bytestring.decode('utf-8')
     # it is very likely that bytestring is utf-8 encoded
except UnicodeDecodeException:
     # this is not UTF-8 encoded

UTF-8 is designed with redundancy. If you can decode it, it is very likely  
that the text stream is UTF-8 encoded.

Wai Yip

>
> Greetings.
>
> A quick question. How can I verify if a given
> string is properly encoded in utf-8 ?
>
> The use case is this - I have a web form that
> I send with the charset set to utf-8. But it
> is possible that the user might change the
> encoding and hence when the form gets submitted,
> a different character might get back to me.
>
> Thanks,
> Krishna.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies



From deirdre at deirdre.net  Fri Feb 10 06:23:06 2006
From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen)
Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 21:23:06 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Free: A bunch of technical books,
	including Python books
Message-ID: <CAB1D646-442E-434C-AD64-999364647D6B@deirdre.net>

We're having our twice-monthly Linux Cabal meeting on Saturday from 4  
p.m. to midnight.

Available for adoption (at no cost) will be quite a few technical  
books. We're moving and these are either duplicates or they are books  
we no longer need.

You can see what's available at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/muhe-e/ 
sets/72057594062048521/

First come, first served.

-- 
_Deirdre                                             http://deirdre.net



From keith at kdart.com  Fri Feb 10 15:43:04 2006
From: keith at kdart.com (Keith Dart)
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 06:43:04 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] piggie news
Message-ID: <20060210064304.0662a69e@leviathan.kdart.com>

BayPiggie News
rooters news service - 10 Feb 2006

A cabal of Pythonistas met in a dark dungeon last night to discuss
world domination. On the menu were frozen pythons, pickled eggs,
and low-cal iCals. 

One member, Keith Dart, came to meet Guido in person for the first time
but was unable to locate him in the dark. 

Other members offered compensation for help in keeping Spam off the
menu.


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================
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From sesquile at gmail.com  Fri Feb 10 18:39:11 2006
From: sesquile at gmail.com (m h)
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:39:11 +0000
Subject: [Baypiggies] Blog coverage of SDForum Python event...
In-Reply-To: <e36b84ee0602092337w2989de8ah4e0ab9d1f70d8fe3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e36b84ee0602092337w2989de8ah4e0ab9d1f70d8fe3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e36b84ee0602100939j58f8469k47b2b51ce256de2f@mail.gmail.com>

> Piggies-
>
> I mentioned last night the recent SDForum Python event.  I've covered
> some of it at my blog:
> http://panela.blog-city.com/
>
> Enjoy.
>
> matt
>

From jxd6 at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 11 21:30:49 2006
From: jxd6 at hotmail.com (John J. Dooley)
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 12:30:49 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Ubuntu 5.10 DVD included in Magazine
Message-ID: <BAY108-F20430BD34BBEDCF6D9D5D58F050@phx.gbl>

This is probably most useful to the Python newbie trying to set up an 
environment for Python developing on Linux.

I heard that it takes up to six weeks to get a Ubuntu 5.10 CD. The Feb. 
issue of Linux Pro Magazine (Voice over IP on the cover) comes with a Ubuntu 
5.10 DVD. Borders carries this magazine.

I got my copy by downloading a CD-ROM image from the ubuntu web site and 
burning my own CD under Suse, I haven't tried to use the DVD from the 
magazine.

Ubuntu 5.10 comes with Python 2.4.2 already installed. There is a very 
complete set of Python packages that are ready for installation thru 
synaptic. For example, all the packages mentioned in the Twisted book(from 
o'reilly) are easily installed this way.

In addition, (g)vim enabled with Python is easily installed this way. 
Together with Keith Dart's vim and Python scripts this makes a very nice 
development environment. The vim package for bicyclerepair refactoring is 
also available. I notice there are also python packages for emacs.

Among the many other included python tools, SPE (Stani's Python Editor) is 
proving useful for browsing code. For example, when looking at Twisted 
source, the modules of interest can be brought up in a tabbed view. The find 
in files is also useful. Once in a while(this ssems to be happening less as 
my mouse clicks get less random), SPE crashes so I think I will stick with 
vim for creating or editing code.



From jxd6 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 12 02:17:22 2006
From: jxd6 at hotmail.com (John J. Dooley)
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:17:22 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dejavu: Components and IDEs
Message-ID: <BAY108-F28F68A9B3EFAB7173A7B0C8F040@phx.gbl>

My recent puzzling about Python's IDE and module support got me to thinking
along the following lines. As systems mature, useable subsystems become
componentized (Microsoft (D)COM, chip cells, Linux packages, etc). Once this 
starts to
happen, design systems(Visual Basic IDE, Cadence CAD, RPM/Synaptic etc.) 
become
possible. This seems to be a recurrent pattern: as systems become larger 
there is an
attempt to systematically componentize units and to provide tools for 
assembling
them.

I observed this transistion in the microprocessor design industry. At the
start of my experience, chips were designed with tools developed as needed.
This period saw the designer population increase and the typical designer
profile change. Armies of newly minted "Carver Mead" designers soon out 
numbered the
pre-CAD veterans. The transition was not smooth and many veteran designers 
had
misgivens. The co-evolution of component and Computer Aided Design took 
wasn't
instantaneous and  some veteran designers had some misgivings along the way.

Visual Basic and ActiveX/COM seems to have followed a similar path. Perhaps,
RPMS, and Synaptic is having a similar effect on  expnaded use of Linux.

My guess is that the population of Python developer would increase an order 
of
magnitude given a mature components and design composition(IDE) tools. This
popularization by making things easy is not necessarily of top interest or
priority to the majority of Python verterans.

Stephen Deibel of Wingware said that Wing simplicity was a common request. 
The
most interested in a VB/ActiveX like evolution may be the 9 million newbie
developers that are enabled once the component/IDE chasm is bridged. It may 
be
that demand for IDE is closely coupled to availability for standardized
components. Without a large inventory of ready components, the IDE is an
alternative editor.



From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 12 03:10:34 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 18:10:34 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] SDForum 01/25? Python event
Message-ID: <BAY103-F7248D4E907955DC3FCF13A0040@phx.gbl>

Hi Matt,

A real pity I missed this, was it publicised in advance? If so I missed the 
announce.
I assume you mean 01/25 "Dynamic Languages Series: Python"
If they are doing this semi-regularly can you tell us where to subscribe, 
and/or
invite SDForum to cross-advertise Pythonic events to baypiggies?

http://www.sdforum.org/SDForum/Templates/Calendar.aspx?pid=179&sid=1&mo=1&yr=2006

Thanks,
Stephen

Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Blog coverage of SDForum Python event...
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 9:39 AM
>Piggies-
>
>I mentioned last night the recent SDForum Python event.  I've covered
>some of it at my blog:
>http://panela.blog-city.com/
>
>Enjoy.
>
>matt



From wescpy at gmail.com  Sun Feb 12 06:44:05 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 21:44:05 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] SDForum 01/25? Python event
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F7248D4E907955DC3FCF13A0040@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY103-F7248D4E907955DC3FCF13A0040@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580602112144k4a53e265k9cb4817526c18d1e@mail.gmail.com>

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-January/000149.html


On 2/11/06, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> A real pity I missed this, was it publicised in advance? If so I missed the
> announce.
> <snip> cross-advertise Pythonic events to baypiggies?

From jjinux at gmail.com  Mon Feb 13 21:02:45 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 12:02:45 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] SDForum 01/25? Python event
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580602112144k4a53e265k9cb4817526c18d1e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY103-F7248D4E907955DC3FCF13A0040@phx.gbl>
	<78b3a9580602112144k4a53e265k9cb4817526c18d1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90602131202o62b2b0c9rff69789d08628689@mail.gmail.com>

I do recommend that people sign up for SDForum events.  I go to the
"Emerging Technologies SIG", and I really like it.  The only drawback
is that it costs about $15 a shot.  They also have a "Distinguished
Speaker" series.

-jj

On 2/11/06, w chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-January/000149.html
>
>
> On 2/11/06, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > A real pity I missed this, was it publicised in advance? If so I missed the
> > announce.
> > <snip> cross-advertise Pythonic events to baypiggies?
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From epalmore at pixar.com  Tue Feb 14 01:59:33 2006
From: epalmore at pixar.com (Elizabeth Palmore)
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:59:33 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] SWE (3D Computer Graphics) @ Pixar!
References: <47DD3AA1-3BFF-4253-A7F1-D739BD3A7F5E@pixar.com>
Message-ID: <24ACD54E-8E11-4A10-A223-099B4D792287@pixar.com>

> Software Engineer, Production Engineering
> Pixar Animation Studios
> Emeryville, CA
>
> Pixar Animation Studios combines creative and technical artistry to  
> create original stories in the medium of computer animation. Pixar  
> has created six of the most successful and beloved animated films  
> of all time: Toy Story, A Bug's Life, Toy Story 2, Monsters, Inc.,  
> Finding Nemo and The Incredibles. Pixar has won 18 Academy Awards?  
> and its six films have grossed more than $3.2 billion at the  
> worldwide box office to date. The Northern California studio will  
> release its next film, Cars, on June 9, 2006.
>
> Summary of Position:
>
> This is a software engineering position in the Studio Tools  
> Department to help support the existing deployments of Pixar's in- 
> house movie production software. The primary responsibility of this  
> position is to maintain and fix bugs in our proprietary system.  
> This is a front line position that requires collaboration with our  
> engineering staff, project managers, and production users to  
> maintain mission critical software.
>
>
>  Responsibilities:
>
> ? Primarily responsible for the maintenance and support of software  
> and/or systems under the guidance of a departmental project lead.
> ? Works directly with production staff to solve technical  
> challenges and debug high priority issues.
> ? Detailed problem analysis and resolution of issues.
> ? Triage incoming issues and provide rapid response/resolution.
>
>
> Qualifications
>
> ? B.S. degree in computer science, advanced degree preferred.
> ? Strong software engineering skills with expertise in C, C++, and  
> Python
> ? OpenGL experience preferred.
> ? 5-7 years of experience in the computer graphics field.
> Strong 3D math and computer graphics experience
> ? Linux or UNIX Operating System experience.
> ? Excellence in problem solving and balancing quick turnaround with  
> long-term quality.
> ? Must be able to work well with a wide range of personality types.
> ? Must be detail oriented and organized, possess strong  
> communication skills, and be able to handle a variety of tasks in  
> an efficient manner.
> ? Excellent tracking and follow through ability
> ? Desire to provide excellent customer-service to production staff
>
> To apply please go to www.pixar.com. Click on "Company Info" then  
> "Jobs." Please submit resume AND cover letter.
>
> Pixar is an Equal Opportunity Employer.

From epalmore at pixar.com  Tue Feb 14 23:08:18 2006
From: epalmore at pixar.com (Elizabeth Palmore)
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 14:08:18 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Software Engineer,
	(Objective C/Cocoa) @ Pixar Animation Studios
Message-ID: <F61547EE-E085-4F04-B2CB-FB33FC86D52B@pixar.com>

Software Engineer, (Objective C/Cocoa)
Pixar Animation Studios
Emeryville, CA

Pixar Animation Studios combines creative and technical artistry to  
create original stories in the medium of computer animation. Pixar  
has created six of the most successful and beloved animated films of  
all time: Toy Story, A Bug's Life, Toy Story 2, Monsters, Inc.,  
Finding Nemo and The Incredibles. Pixar has won 18 Academy Awards?  
and its six films have grossed more than $3.2 billion at the  
worldwide box office to date. The Northern California studio will  
release its next film, Cars, on June 9, 2006.

Summary of Job:

The Studio Tools Department is responsible for developing Pixar?s in- 
house proprietary animation software. The Engineering Team is looking  
for Mac software engineers to help create and maintain new software  
for the studio. The position requires a deep understanding of  
software application engineering, an ability to collaborate in a  
cross-functional team of world-class developers, and skill in  
designing and implementing robust, easy to maintain code.

Responsibilities:

? Develop, implement, test and support software
? Work effectively with a team of engineers and program managers.
? Work with artists and developers to provide world class software  
development and support for film production

Qualifications:

? 5+ years of experience engineering in Objective-C / Cocoa & Python.
? Bachelor's degree in Computer Science or equivalent
? Experience working with technical and non-technical software users
? Strong OS X application development experience
? Experience developing multimedia applications used by creative  
professionals a plus
? Experience with OS X multimedia architecture and APIs including  
Quicktime, Core Audio, and Core VIdeo
? Commitment to creating world class production tools
? Strong problem solving skills with high attention to detail and  
quality
? Excellent verbal and written communication skills
? Proven ability to work with a team to deliver high quality software  
in a fast paced, dynamic, deadline oriented environment.

To apply please go to www.pixar.com Click on "Company Info" then "Jobs."

Pixar is an Equal Opportunity Employer.


From gautham.hegde.sf at gmail.com  Wed Feb 15 00:24:48 2006
From: gautham.hegde.sf at gmail.com (gautham hegde)
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:24:48 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Introducing PloneLounge - a user group for Zope and
	Plone enthusiasts
Message-ID: <a3992a5a0602141524h29c3c1e9l614b23dfd8fa8d18@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Everyone,

Since this list is about supporting all things python, I wanted to announce
to you all the creation of PloneLounge.  A user group for Zope and Plone
enthusiasts.

What is zope?
Zope <http://zope.org> is an open source application server for building
content management systems, intranets, portals, and custom applications. The
Zope community consists of hundreds of companies and thousands of developers
all over the world, working on building the platform and Zope applications.
Zope is written in Python, a highly-productive, object-oriented scripting
language.
What is Plone?
Plone <http://plone.org/> is the leading open source content management
system. It's powerful, extensible, and easy-to-use, right out of the box. It
runs on an industrial strength application server, and works equally well on
Linux, Windows, or OSX.

URL
http://plonelounge.org/

when
Wednesday Feburary 15th between 7:00-9:00 PM

where
CIGNEX Technologies, Inc.
2055 Laurelwood Road, Suite 110
Santa Clara, CA 95054

So if youd like to know a little more about python web frameworks, meet some
of the core developers and board members, and discuss your valentines day
horror stories, come on over to the meeting.

Cheers,
Gautham

P.S -
It would be great if you could let me know if youre interested in coming by
sending me a quick email.
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From hsuclarklarry at sbcglobal.net  Fri Feb 17 08:32:44 2006
From: hsuclarklarry at sbcglobal.net (Laurence Clark)
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:32:44 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python ORM?
In-Reply-To: <a3992a5a0602141524h29c3c1e9l614b23dfd8fa8d18@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a3992a5a0602141524h29c3c1e9l614b23dfd8fa8d18@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43F57C1C.9080201@sbcglobal.net>

So what is the Python version of Hibernate? Or is this the wrong 
question? Do serious Python users believe in relational databases? If 
not what is the preferred persistence solution for a midsize data model 
-- the kind of thing that would use a hundred tables or so in an old 
fashioned client-server database application with a normalized 
relational database.



From daveg at sonic.net  Fri Feb 17 11:40:07 2006
From: daveg at sonic.net (daveg)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 02:40:07 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python ORM?
In-Reply-To: <43F57C1C.9080201@sbcglobal.net>
References: <a3992a5a0602141524h29c3c1e9l614b23dfd8fa8d18@mail.gmail.com>
	<43F57C1C.9080201@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20060217104007.GB23771@sonic.net>

On Thu, Feb 16, 2006 at 11:32:44PM -0800, Laurence Clark wrote:
> So what is the Python version of Hibernate? Or is this the wrong
> question? Do serious Python users believe in relational databases? If
> not what is the preferred persistence solution for a midsize data model
> -- the kind of thing that would use a hundred tables or so in an old
> fashioned client-server database application with a normalized
> relational database.

As a sometime dba and sometime python purist, I tend to dislike ORMs. They
either run out of power or lead to patterns that fail to take advantage of
what relational databases are good at, or become so complex that it is
difficult to predict what they will do. Notice that all of them let you
escape to writing your own SQL, a hint if ever there was one.

Usually people seek more transparency and simplicity in code, but when
it comes to ORMs some want a whole complicated layer of obsfucatory
library filled with hidden metadata and covert code generators. It is
almost as if SQL was all icky somehow, something to be ashamed of,
covered up and hidden.

Ok, the truth is, SQL is all icky. And historically relational databases were
stuffed down our gullets by the likes of IBM and Oracle. Still the failure of
ANY of the proposed alternatives over the last quarter century must signify
something. Probably that everything else is either ickier or simply
insufficient, or even that SQL systems are the best tool we have for certain
problems.

SQL is about sets. To use it effectively you want to express as much of
your processing as possible in terms of sets and operations on sets.
Instead of writing python to do something to one object, write SQL to do it
to all of the objects at once. The more work you can force the SQL engine to
do in batches and the less interaction with it you have, the better. To do
this effectively, I think you need to understand SQL and have good control
of the queries you write.

One specific problem with ORMs is that they encourage "one at a time"
thinking:

    I have a customer Object, I'll just instantiate it here with a call
    to the ORM ... now I'll have a loop to call the ORM to instantiate all
    the Order objects... 

Which is just a relational join that ends up hand coded in python ignoring
25 years of industrial R & D on how to process joins efficiently.

Think of Python as a car or truck and SQL as a freight train. The train only
goes certain places and its all rusty and ugly, but if you have ten million
tons of coal to move across the country it beats a million separate truck
trips. And (to be completely unfair to ORMs) it really really beats dividing
the coal up onto a million trains painted up to look like a truck.

SQL is your friend, don't hide from it, learn to love it.

-dg


--
David Gould                      daveg at sonic.net
If simplicity worked, the world would be overrun with insects.

From ben at groovie.org  Fri Feb 17 16:38:45 2006
From: ben at groovie.org (Ben Bangert)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:38:45 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python ORM?
In-Reply-To: <43F57C1C.9080201@sbcglobal.net>
References: <a3992a5a0602141524h29c3c1e9l614b23dfd8fa8d18@mail.gmail.com>
	<43F57C1C.9080201@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <271A1B7C-85B9-4FDE-A632-69141AC9C167@groovie.org>

On Feb 16, 2006, at 11:32 PM, Laurence Clark wrote:

> So what is the Python version of Hibernate? Or is this the wrong
> question? Do serious Python users believe in relational databases? If
> not what is the preferred persistence solution for a midsize data  
> model
> -- the kind of thing that would use a hundred tables or so in an old 
> fashioned client-server database application with a normalized
> relational database.

The closest thing to Hibernate in the Python world would most likely  
be SQLAlchemy (http://sqlalchemy.org/), which implements a lot of the  
same enterprise patterns as Hibernate. It lets you stay close to the  
SQL, or abstract away from it as you choose.

- Ben

From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Feb 18 00:46:26 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:46:26 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python ORM?
In-Reply-To: <20060217104007.GB23771@sonic.net>
References: <a3992a5a0602141524h29c3c1e9l614b23dfd8fa8d18@mail.gmail.com>
	<43F57C1C.9080201@sbcglobal.net> <20060217104007.GB23771@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90602171546u777dc64ao56c7d126d98dd6e4@mail.gmail.com>

I think RDBMSs are the best thing to happen to business software in
the last 30 years.  I *love* SQL.  However, with all due respect for
David, it does seem that the active record pattern used by Ruby on
Rails, Django, SQLAlchemy (I believe), SQLObject, etc. is actually
helpful.  I liked having the OR Mapper that Django provides, and it
*is* intelligent about generating good SQL and not pulling down
everything into the client.  I think the fact that it lets you drop
down to SQL if you need to is like having your cake and getting to eat
it too.  I've read a lot that says SQLAlchemy is the way to go.

Best Regards,
-jj

On 2/17/06, daveg <daveg at sonic.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2006 at 11:32:44PM -0800, Laurence Clark wrote:
> > So what is the Python version of Hibernate? Or is this the wrong
> > question? Do serious Python users believe in relational databases? If
> > not what is the preferred persistence solution for a midsize data model
> > -- the kind of thing that would use a hundred tables or so in an old
> > fashioned client-server database application with a normalized
> > relational database.
>
> As a sometime dba and sometime python purist, I tend to dislike ORMs. They
> either run out of power or lead to patterns that fail to take advantage of
> what relational databases are good at, or become so complex that it is
> difficult to predict what they will do. Notice that all of them let you
> escape to writing your own SQL, a hint if ever there was one.
>
> Usually people seek more transparency and simplicity in code, but when
> it comes to ORMs some want a whole complicated layer of obsfucatory
> library filled with hidden metadata and covert code generators. It is
> almost as if SQL was all icky somehow, something to be ashamed of,
> covered up and hidden.
>
> Ok, the truth is, SQL is all icky. And historically relational databases were
> stuffed down our gullets by the likes of IBM and Oracle. Still the failure of
> ANY of the proposed alternatives over the last quarter century must signify
> something. Probably that everything else is either ickier or simply
> insufficient, or even that SQL systems are the best tool we have for certain
> problems.
>
> SQL is about sets. To use it effectively you want to express as much of
> your processing as possible in terms of sets and operations on sets.
> Instead of writing python to do something to one object, write SQL to do it
> to all of the objects at once. The more work you can force the SQL engine to
> do in batches and the less interaction with it you have, the better. To do
> this effectively, I think you need to understand SQL and have good control
> of the queries you write.
>
> One specific problem with ORMs is that they encourage "one at a time"
> thinking:
>
>     I have a customer Object, I'll just instantiate it here with a call
>     to the ORM ... now I'll have a loop to call the ORM to instantiate all
>     the Order objects...
>
> Which is just a relational join that ends up hand coded in python ignoring
> 25 years of industrial R & D on how to process joins efficiently.
>
> Think of Python as a car or truck and SQL as a freight train. The train only
> goes certain places and its all rusty and ugly, but if you have ten million
> tons of coal to move across the country it beats a million separate truck
> trips. And (to be completely unfair to ORMs) it really really beats dividing
> the coal up onto a million trains painted up to look like a truck.
>
> SQL is your friend, don't hide from it, learn to love it.
>
> -dg
>
>
> --
> David Gould                      daveg at sonic.net
> If simplicity worked, the world would be overrun with insects.
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From keith at kdart.com  Sat Feb 18 00:57:51 2006
From: keith at kdart.com (Keith Dart)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:57:51 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python ORM?
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90602171546u777dc64ao56c7d126d98dd6e4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a3992a5a0602141524h29c3c1e9l614b23dfd8fa8d18@mail.gmail.com>
	<43F57C1C.9080201@sbcglobal.net> <20060217104007.GB23771@sonic.net>
	<c41f67b90602171546u777dc64ao56c7d126d98dd6e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060217155751.12e9a150@leviathan.kdart.com>

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote the following on 2006-02-17 at 15:46 PST:
===
> I think RDBMSs are the best thing to happen to business software in
> the last 30 years.  I *love* SQL.  However, with all due respect for
> David, it does seem that the active record pattern used by Ruby on
> Rails, Django, SQLAlchemy (I believe), SQLObject, etc. is actually
> helpful.  I liked having the OR Mapper that Django provides, and it
> *is* intelligent about generating good SQL and not pulling down
> everything into the client.  I think the fact that it lets you drop
> down to SQL if you need to is like having your cake and getting to eat
> it too.  I've read a lot that says SQLAlchemy is the way to go.

===

I have used SQLObjects, and I liked it. However, the syntax was a
little weird. But it does make interfacing to the SQL (mySQL) easier
for the SQL non-expert. 

As for other object storages, I also use the Durus persistence package.
My software's whole configuration database is based on it. It makes a
great free-form data storage. My wrapper objects make it look like a
hierarchical file system, except that it stores Python objects.





-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================
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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sat Feb 18 19:01:38 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:01:38 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python ORM?
In-Reply-To: <20060217104007.GB23771@sonic.net>
References: <a3992a5a0602141524h29c3c1e9l614b23dfd8fa8d18@mail.gmail.com>
	<43F57C1C.9080201@sbcglobal.net> <20060217104007.GB23771@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20060218180138.GB19538@panix.com>

On Fri, Feb 17, 2006, daveg wrote:
>
> Ok, the truth is, SQL is all icky. And historically relational
> databases were stuffed down our gullets by the likes of IBM and
> Oracle. Still the failure of ANY of the proposed alternatives over the
> last quarter century must signify something. Probably that everything
> else is either ickier or simply insufficient, or even that SQL systems
> are the best tool we have for certain problems.

Note that "relational database" and SQL are not synonymous:

http://www.oreillynet.com/lpt/a/6060
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing."  --Alan Perlis

From dave at krondo.com  Sat Feb 18 19:08:58 2006
From: dave at krondo.com (Dave Peticolas)
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:08:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] job posting
Message-ID: <43F762BA.6010201@krondo.com>

Industrial Light & Magic -- Software Tools Engineer

This position develops and maintains a large body of Python code
related to the support of CG and visual effects production. The
projects include several large applications and numerous smaller
scripts and utilities. Specific uses include digital asset management,
production pipeline scripts, and process automation. You will work
with a team of programmers in a fast and flexible work environment.

Note this position does not involve graphics programming.


Job description

    * Develop and maintain Python code
    * Troubleshoot problems with deployed code
    * Work directly with users to obtain new requirements
      and fix problems.


Requirements

    * Bachelor's degree in Computer Science or other technical degree
      with 1+ years experience in a software development environment
      required. Demonstrated ability to serve as an effective
      contributor on mid to large scale development projects.
    * Expertise in Python
    * SQL and relational database experience.
    * Experience with GUI programming helpful, especially GTK and Tkinter
    * Experience with Twisted and PEAK is a bonus.
    * Proficient in UNIX. Windows proficiency a bonus.
    * Experience with computer graphics production a bonus.
    * Familiar with software development practices including unit testing.
    * Good communication and organization skills.


To apply use the link on this page: http://www.ilm.com/jobs/it/20050204.html


From epalmore at pixar.com  Tue Feb 21 23:23:26 2006
From: epalmore at pixar.com (Elizabeth Palmore)
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:23:26 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Quality Assurance Engineer (Unix,
	Perl or Python)  @ Pixar Animation Studios!
Message-ID: <9ACFE858-348D-487F-9DE8-B641CE11D875@pixar.com>

We are seeking an experienced QA Engineer with a passion for quality  
to participate in the software quality assurance efforts for our  
proprietary in house toolset.

This position requires close collaboration with the engineering staff  
to define, develop, execute, and automate API level test plans and  
test cases. Identify and communicate a strategy for API and other  
testing methodologies, review and report on test progress, status,  
and coverage, and meet test completion and delivery milestones that  
you help define. Work closely with development, project management  
and documentation to coordinate testing responsibilities.

Responsibilities:

? Develop and execute an API testing strategy, using API testing  
methodology and programming language knowledge
? Develop and implement API tests
? Contribute to setting and evaluating milestone criteria such that  
product is released on schedule with high quality
? Design and implement quality processes for a small team of senior  
software developers
? Work closely with the core development teams during all phases of  
the product life cycle
? Evaluate completeness and effectiveness of developer's unit tests

Qualifications:

? 5+ years of experience in QA or software development
? Bachelor's degree in Computer Science or equivalent
? 3+ years of experience testing APIs and complex data structures
? Excellent design and coding skills ( C/C++ or  and a scripting  
language such as Python or Perl)
? Knowledge of QA methodology, processes, and tools
? Direct experience testing software under Unix (e.g., Linux or OSX)
? Cross platform development experience is preferred (Macintosh, Linux)
? Experience with 3D graphics applications is a plus
? Experience with Objective-C/Cocoa is a plus

Pixar Animation Studios
Emeryville, CA
Full - Time
(Sorry, new visa sponsorship is not available.  Must be currently  
authorized to work in the US)

About Pixar Animation Studios:

Pixar Animation Studios combines creative and technical artistry to  
create original stories in the medium of computer animation.  Pixar  
has created six of the most successful and beloved animated films of  
all time: Toy Story, A Bug's Life, Toy Story 2, Monsters, Inc.,  
Finding Nemo and The Incredibles.  Pixar has won 18 Academy Awards?  
and its six films have grossed more than $3.2 billion at the  
worldwide box office to date.  The Northern California studio will  
release its next film, Cars, on June 9, 2006.  JOIN OUR TEAM!

  To apply please go to www.pixar.com. Click on "Company Info" then  
"Jobs" the "Sofware Development Engineer in Test." Or send resume AND  
cover letter to epalmore at pixar.com.

From webb.sprague at gmail.com  Wed Feb 22 23:31:58 2006
From: webb.sprague at gmail.com (Webb Sprague)
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:31:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] East Bay python problem-solving group?
Message-ID: <b11ea23c0602221431m26dd7ceftd91ffeacc4239b3c@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Are there any pythonistas who get together near Berkeley to talk about
challenges or solutions to code they are working on?  If not, would
anyone like to help start one with me?

I am paid by the University, so all my code is free in both senses.  I
can see where this might be a problem for a lot of the professionals
on the list, but maybe it still be useful.

I envision a meeting that starts with a round-table set of short
intros to you, your project, and what is hassling you at the time. 
Then a free for all as people who can help find the people who need
their help and then help them.  Then a little wrap up so that the
moderator can write a helpful summary for the archives.

Let me know if this might be helpful.
W

From chris at noncombatant.org  Wed Feb 22 23:50:36 2006
From: chris at noncombatant.org (Chris Palmer)
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:50:36 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] East Bay python problem-solving group?
In-Reply-To: <b11ea23c0602221431m26dd7ceftd91ffeacc4239b3c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b11ea23c0602221431m26dd7ceftd91ffeacc4239b3c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060222225036.GA14730@nodewarrior.org>

Webb Sprague writes:

> Are there any pythonistas who get together near Berkeley to talk about
> challenges or solutions to code they are working on?  If not, would
> anyone like to help start one with me?

That sounds like a great time!


-- 
http://www.noncombatant.org/
http://www.boshuda.com/


From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Feb 22 23:58:10 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:58:10 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] East Bay python problem-solving group?
In-Reply-To: <20060222225036.GA14730@nodewarrior.org>
References: <b11ea23c0602221431m26dd7ceftd91ffeacc4239b3c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060222225036.GA14730@nodewarrior.org>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90602221458s65d72c06i465444e1d5b6065e@mail.gmail.com>

By the way, <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-help> is
also very helpful if you can pose your question in a succinct manner.

-jj

On 2/22/06, Chris Palmer <chris at noncombatant.org> wrote:
> Webb Sprague writes:
>
> > Are there any pythonistas who get together near Berkeley to talk about
> > challenges or solutions to code they are working on?  If not, would
> > anyone like to help start one with me?
>
> That sounds like a great time!
>
>
> --
> http://www.noncombatant.org/
> http://www.boshuda.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Feb 23 00:54:52 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:54:52 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] history of prototype based languages
Message-ID: <c41f67b90602221554p4da6a1ebv26f3f90cad0b3c4f@mail.gmail.com>

Can anyone point me in the right direction to learn about the history
of prototype based languages?  Which was the first one?  Are there any
"must read" theoretical papers on the subject?

I don't want to write a thesis on the subject, but I'd love to be able
to speak with some expertise, and I don't have any yet ;)

Thanks,
-jj

From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Thu Feb 23 00:55:38 2006
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:55:38 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] East Bay python problem-solving group?
In-Reply-To: <b11ea23c0602221431m26dd7ceftd91ffeacc4239b3c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b11ea23c0602221431m26dd7ceftd91ffeacc4239b3c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5538c19b0602221555j6ff6f39bn8354587a1c80b9a9@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/22/06, Webb Sprague <webb.sprague at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Are there any pythonistas who get together near Berkeley to talk about
> challenges or solutions to code they are working on?  If not, would
> anyone like to help start one with me?

Is there a meeting place available on campus for
such a group, or is that one of the challenges?

From hauser at namecraft.com  Thu Feb 23 01:03:59 2006
From: hauser at namecraft.com (Michael Hauser)
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:03:59 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] history of prototype based languages
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90602221554p4da6a1ebv26f3f90cad0b3c4f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90602221554p4da6a1ebv26f3f90cad0b3c4f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7AC97378-6BB4-4E57-BFB5-BD8874EEC39D@namecraft.com>

See the page on Wikipedia. The original papers on Self would probably  
be a good place to start reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype-based_languages


On Feb 22, 2006, at 3:54 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> Can anyone point me in the right direction to learn about the history
> of prototype based languages?  Which was the first one?  Are there any
> "must read" theoretical papers on the subject?
>
> I don't want to write a thesis on the subject, but I'd love to be able
> to speak with some expertise, and I don't have any yet ;)
>
> Thanks,
> -jj
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies