[Baypiggies] Pyop

[Shannon -jj Behrens]

On 3/1/07, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
> Hi JJ et.al.,
> ----- On Wednesday, February 28, 2007 jjinux at gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Hey Everyone,
> >
> > I'd like to avoid any more discussion about the Pyop mailing list.
> > The fork is happening, so there's no use crying over spilled milk.
>
> Well, not necessarily.
>
> I think we're still in position to withdraw the new list if JJ would like to institute democracy here.  JJ?  How about it?  How about adopting and adhering to the PyOP rules here?  Or something like them?

I think a democracy is something that should be chosen.  It shouldn't
be forced upon you.  If you start the PyOP list, it's a wonderful
opportunity for other people to choose which type of mailing list
they'd like to participate in.

A benevolent dictator must do some average of "what's best for his
people" and "what they actually want".  In this case, it is clear that
many people want things to "just work", without the strenuous activity
of constantly voting on things.  If people have issues, they can just
raise them to me.  I will either fix them, or I will ask for advice
from the list.

Hence, I think the best course of action is to keep the current list
as it is.  Anyone who wants to join a democracy is welcome to join
your list.  I will continue to harbor no ill will.  If I suddenly
force a democracy upon this list, I know for a fact that many people
will quickly grow irritated with the constant politics.  Violating the
will of the people is clearly not democratic.  Let them vote for
themselves by willingly joining your list.

(moderator hat on:)
Anyone who disagrees with this decision is free to email me
personally.  In the name of good netiquette, I'm going to ask politely
one more time that there be no more discussion about PyOP on the
BayPiggies list.  Use the PyOP list instead.

> After all, the only benevolent dictator is the one who creates democracy and steps down.
>
> I can't help saying that I'm amazed that you keep talking about the name of this list, after decreeing that discussion of the name should stop.

I think people are sharing their lovable memories of pigs.  I'm happy
to hear more.  Alex's story was quite nice ;)

> But, since discussion about the name seems to be open to new material, I'll add that my worst association with "pig" is a "bullying, unthinking, mean cop".

In English, we have many words with multiple meanings.  Some of those
meanings are hateful.  Hateful language is not permitted on any
@python.org mailing list.  The term "PIG" as applied to either the
animal or "Python interest group" is permitted on this mailing list.
The derogatory term for police officers is off limits.

> When I've seen the admin for this list announce a rule with threats of expulsion rather than simply asking for cooperation, it does remind me of this meaning for word.

I haven't threatened to expel anyone.  I am indeed asking politely for
cooperation.

PyOP members are allowed to stay as long as they like.  However, PyOP
is not an appropriate topic for the BayPiggies list.  Nor is hateful
language directed toward police officers.

It brings me great sadness to say this, but continued disregard for
these basic rules will result in moderation.  In the "real world", you
are liable for your speech (e.g. yelling "fire" in a crowded
restaurant).  On a mailing list, my only option is to turn on
moderation or expel users.  I would *really, really* hate to have to
turn on moderation.

Rather, it's best to constrain PyOP discussions to the PyOP list.

> And I'm saddened because the dominant/submissant model is being perpetuated among my friends and colleagues.
>
> Back to democracy, when I was in 9th grade in suburbian LA, we were required to take a "civics" class.  There was material about the structure of our government, but also about Robert's Rules of Order, and specifically, how to start and run a club using these rules so that the club can flourish. We were required to join a club, with extra credit for starting a club.  I did start one and I remember I didn't like the name of that one either.  The name was decided according to Robert's Rules.  I think the name was "Adorians" or something way too cute.  We were all girls.
>
> I understand that Robert's Rules were deleted from the required curriculum long ago.
>
> Too bad.  Lacking this sort of experience, we are complacent about being under the thumb of a dictator, or a President who stole the election with fraud.

If you are speaking about Bush, whether wrong or right, this is the
wrong forum to voice your complaints.

> I suppose this is my last-ditch-effort to keep the list together.
>
> Marilyn
>
> p.s. When is the ETA for the announce list?

I will consider myself "encouraged" to hurry up and get it done. ;)

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/