I'm a recruiter in the space and I must say, I'm not surprised to hear this account. As professionals in 'hiring', we know the rules well. We realize the (quite serious) ramifications of abuse with regards to these sensitive questions. Unfortunately, our clients and hiring managers such as the one you've written about here rarely fully understand the faux pas they are committing when pursuing such a line of questioning. Because the knowledge is not as common as it probably should be, people like this manager haven't heard the horror stories that might scare them off these tactics.<div>
<br></div><div>It's not pleasant to hear that this particular manager decided to go down this path as he/she did, but Glen, you handled it probably as well as you could have. Obviously your options for recourse in a situation like this are two fold: press them with legal action, or, better yet, make sure all the best developers you know are aware of their distasteful hiring practices. A kick in the wallet hurts, but a blow to the recruiting pipeline kills. ;-)</div>
<div><br></div><div>Good luck in your search ;)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>-Lumen</div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Glen Jarvis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:glen@glenjarvis.com">glen@glenjarvis.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">And, since a few have asked privately, let me put this out there for the record... <div><br></div><div>I did graduate High School, top 5% of my class with several honors.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The point isn't that I have anything to hide (I actually don't). Yes, I worked first before getting my degree, and did quite well without a degree. That makes my history unusual. But, not *that* unusual. If one were to ask "Did you graduate?" I would happily answer that question (as it is relevant and I'm proud of doing so well). I'd love to throw in that I also graduated a very reputable University in the midwest Cum Laude.</div>
<div><br></div><div>But, "When did you graduate?" clearly tells how old someone is. And, that question should be allowed to be refused without any repercussions. This is especially true since there is obviously enough work history on my resume to show that I graduated quite a while back, and went back to University as an older student.</div>
<div><br></div><div>It's also not personal. I don't personally mind. If it weren't illegal, I would have answered immediately (probably without even thinking about it). I only refuse to answer because it *is* illegal to ask and one should have the right to refuse something that is illegal to be asked.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>Glen</div></font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><div><br></div><div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Glen Jarvis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:glen@glenjarvis.com" target="_blank">glen@glenjarvis.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Fair points, Jim. But, would you push the question when you were told "You cannot ask me that question, as it would reveal my age and that question is illegal?"<br>
<br>
Would you continue pushing that question when you were told very clearly, "You cannot legally ask that question?"<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
<br>
Glen<br>
<br>
El Feb 1, 2011, a las 12:26 PM, jim <<a href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com" target="_blank">jim@systemateka.com</a>> escribió:<br>
<div><div></div><div><br>
><br>
><br>
> some (long) time ago i was a hiring manager and not<br>
> much experienced. i occasionally got feedback (and not<br>
> kindly) as to my intrusive, illegal questions. i believe<br>
> the criticisms were right, though they did not address<br>
> my motives: to find out about the person, i.e.<br>
> personality.<br>
> it's a difficult problem: something like 30% of new<br>
> hires turn out badly (for a variety of reasons, but one<br>
> big one is mismatch to the job tasks).<br>
> it sounds like you might have encountered someone<br>
> who was trying to apply a formula (such as "we don'<br>
> want no old people") rather than discover how to match<br>
> you to their tasks.<br>
> none-the-less i write this to suggest taking it easy,<br>
> don't get worked up, even if this was blatant<br>
> discrimination you should consider the possible<br>
> backfiring effects of expressing indignity ("do you know,<br>
> that glen guy never even went to high school" or worse).<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 11:39 -0800, Glen Jarvis wrote:<br>
>> Roderick,<br>
>><br>
>> I have had an experience today that I think you can relate to. I'm<br>
>> never been someone who has an issue with ageism because I am still<br>
>> quite young, pass for young, and am quite current with the 'trends'<br>
>> etc...<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> However, I don't think I've ever seen a more blatant violation of<br>
>> ageism today. I had a phone screening with someone who, believe it or<br>
>> not, came from the BayPIGgies list. They asked me blatantly "When did<br>
>> you finish High School."<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> My mouth fell open. I couldn't believe that such<br>
>> a blatant question was asked. Maybe he didn't know. I explained that I<br>
>> could answer that question as it would reveal my age and that,<br>
>> therefore, was not a question he could ask. He never backed down. In<br>
>> fact, he become quite confrontational that I would have an issue with<br>
>> this. I was *amazed.*<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> First of all, there is *NOTHING* possibly related to my resume of<br>
>> when I finished High School. Not a single thing - no matter how he<br>
>> tried to justify it. He can't justify "filling in any gaps" as High<br>
>> School was before my five year history on my resume. I did leave IBM<br>
>> to finish a degree at University - that is unusual - and would show a<br>
>> work gap until someone reviewed it. I can easily answer that question<br>
>> and explain. However, he didn't seem interested -- only when I<br>
>> graduated High School.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> I personally have no issue with my age as I'm currently in my<br>
>> programming prime. But, I refused to answer out of principle -- like<br>
>> when someone tries to ask race when they shouldn't.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Regardless, I'm reeling from the conversation and am thinking of<br>
>> any type of legal sanctions that I could ask for. I need to calm down<br>
>> before I take this too seriously, but I am seriously considering what<br>
>> can be done as it was so blatant and so unapologetic.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Cheers,<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Glen<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 2:52 AM, Glen Jarvis <<a href="mailto:glen@glenjarvis.com" target="_blank">glen@glenjarvis.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>> So, my experience is that those resumes are<br>
>> not tossed automatically.<br>
>> However, they must be related to the job in<br>
>> question. I found that the<br>
>> quality of the programmer does not decline<br>
>> with age, even well past<br>
>> retirement age -- especially if that person is<br>
>> proactive and stays current<br>
>> in their field.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Let me give a specific case. There are 4 applicants<br>
>> for an ENTRY LEVEL Django Python Web job. None of the<br>
>> applicants have any experience in Python Django. Two<br>
>> are just graduating from TopNotchU with Computer<br>
>> Science degrees and two have twenty years experience<br>
>> as programmers in a variety of areas, but none of it<br>
>> with Web applications, and they have made it clear on<br>
>> their cover letter that they will take a pay cut if<br>
>> necessary to meet the salary range of the job.<br>
>><br>
>> How many hiring managers will consider all four<br>
>> applicants equally?<br>
>><br>
>> Rob<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> My personal experience is that they are all considered<br>
>> equally. If it were me, I would consider them all equally.<br>
>><br>
>> I agree that ageism exists, unfortunately, and you will find<br>
>> cases where some people will not treat those individuals<br>
>> equally. That's not generally my experience, however.<br>
>><br>
>> Warmest Regards,<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Glen<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which<br>
>> matter least.<br>
>><br>
>> -- Goethe<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least.</span><br>
<br>-- Goethe <br>
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