<div dir="ltr">The emails seem to have reached an equilibrium point of bikeshedding on the (bootstrap|setup)_requires issue that is being discussed (as Daniel points out below, this has nothing to do with how building works and instead is only about statically declaring what tools need to be installed to simply run your builder to do whatever the heck it wants; this is the first baby step to build decoupling/customization).<div><br></div><div>So who is the BDFL on this decision? It seems we need someone to stop the bikeshedding on the field name and what file is going to house this configuration data. And do we need someone to write a PEP for this proposal to have something to target?<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, 5 May 2016 at 13:54 Daniel Holth <<a href="mailto:dholth@gmail.com">dholth@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">This is a recurring point of confusion. <span style="line-height:1.5">setup.py is not ever going away. In general it is necessary for you to be able to write software to build your software, and there is no intention to take that feature away.</span><div><br></div><div><div>People repeatedly come to the conclusion that static metadata means the entire build is static. It's only the dependencies that need to be static to enable better dependency resolution in pip. The build does not need to be static.</div><div><br></div><div><span style="font-family:'helvetica neue',helvetica,arial,sans-serif;line-height:1.5">The proposed feature means you will be able to have a simpler setup.py or no setup.py it by using something like flit or pbr that are configured with .cfg or .ini. setup.py is not going away.</span></div></div><div><span style="font-family:'helvetica neue',helvetica,arial,sans-serif;line-height:1.5"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:'helvetica neue',helvetica,arial,sans-serif;line-height:1.5">Static metadata means the list of dependencies, author name, trove classifiers is static. Not the build itself.</span></div><div><span style="font-family:'helvetica neue',helvetica,arial,sans-serif;line-height:1.5"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:'helvetica neue',helvetica,arial,sans-serif;line-height:1.5">Enforced staticness of the build script is right out.</span></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 4:34 PM Alex Grönholm <<a href="mailto:alex.gronholm@nextday.fi" target="_blank">alex.gronholm@nextday.fi</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
I think it would be best to gather a few extreme examples of
setup.py files from real world projects and figure out if they can
be implemented in a declarative fashion. That at least would help us
identify the pain points.<br>
<br>
For starters, gevent's setup.py looks like it needs a fair bit of
custom logic:<br>
<a href="https://github.com/gevent/gevent/blob/master/setup.py" target="_blank">https://github.com/gevent/gevent/blob/master/setup.py</a><br>
<br>
<div>05.05.2016, 23:30, Chris Barker
kirjoitti:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 7:45 PM, Nick
Coghlan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ncoghlan@gmail.com" target="_blank">ncoghlan@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">This
configuration vs customisation distinction is probably
worth<br>
spelling out for folks without a formal software
engineering or<br>
computer science background, so:<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>fair enough -- good to be clear on the terms.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Configuration is different: you're choosing amongst a set
of<br>
possibilities that have been constrained in some way, and
those<br>
constraints are structurally enforced. </blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That's a key point here -- I guess I'm skeptical that
we can have the flexibility we need with a purely
configuration-based system -- we probably don't WANT to
constrain the options completely. If you think about it,
while distutils has it's many, many flaws, what made it
possible for it to be as useful as it is, and last as long
as it has because is CAN be customized -- users are NOT
constrained to the built-in functionality.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I suspect the idea of this thread is to keep the API to
a build system constrained -- and let the build systems
themselves be as customizable as the want to be. And I
haven't thought it out carefully, but I have a feeling
that we're going to hit a wall that way .. but maybe not.</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Usually
that enforcement is<br>
handled by making the configuration declarative - it's in
some passive<br>
format like an ini file or JSON, and if it gets too
repetitive then<br>
you introduce a config generator, rather than making the
format itself<br>
more sophisticated.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>OK -- that's more or less my thought -- if it's python
that gets run, then you've got your config generator built
in -- why not?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The big advantage of configuration over customisation is
that you<br>
substantially increase the degrees of freedom in how
*consumers* of<br>
that configuration are implemented - no longer do you need
a full<br>
Python runtime (or whatever), you just need an ini file
parser, or a<br>
JSON decoder, and then you can look at just the bits you
care about<br>
for your particular use case and ignore the rest.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sure -- but do we care? this is about python packaging
-- is it too big a burden to say you need python to read
the configuration?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-CHB</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
-- <br>
<div><br>
Christopher Barker, Ph.D.<br>
Oceanographer<br>
<br>
Emergency Response Division<br>
NOAA/NOS/OR&R (206) 526-6959 voice<br>
7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax<br>
Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:Chris.Barker@noaa.gov" target="_blank">Chris.Barker@noaa.gov</a></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><blockquote type="cite">
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Distutils-SIG maillist - <a href="mailto:Distutils-SIG@python.org" target="_blank">Distutils-SIG@python.org</a>
<a href="https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig" target="_blank">https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig</a>
</pre>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Distutils-SIG maillist - <a href="mailto:Distutils-SIG@python.org" target="_blank">Distutils-SIG@python.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Distutils-SIG maillist - <a href="mailto:Distutils-SIG@python.org" target="_blank">Distutils-SIG@python.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>