[Edu-sig] Version 0.2.03 of PataPata released (adds Jython/Swing support)

[Paul D. Fernhout]

kirby urner wrote:
> When Python first came out, maybe C programmers were the primary
> target, but a lot of us were used to an interactive shell environment
> from xBase (i.e. dBase II, III, IV, V, Clipper, FoxPro).
> 
> So when MSFT purchased FoxPro to compete with Borland (FoxPro for
> Windows versus Borland's dBase V), and started going OO, that pushed a
> huge cadre into the OO paradigm'd who'd hardly even heard of
> Smalltalk, let alone coded in it.
> 
> What was cool about FoxPro is it didn't go the VB route and just let
> programmers use precoded objects from libraries (the OCX, later
> ActiveX model).  VBers were kept blissfully igorant of OO at the level
> of actually defining classes (with VB .NET, that's all changed).

Just for reference, I seriously learned OO from ZetaLisp+Flavors on a 
Symbolics, as the TekTronix Smalltalk machine in the lab was hogged and 
APDA (Apple) Smalltalk was too slow and limited on the Mac Plus.

Before I seriously got into Smalltalk years later, I learned the dBase 
compiler "Clipper" for an information management project, and that was 
phenomenal for the time. The best thing about Clipper for our use was that 
you could ship "live" code in the application -- that is, while Clipper 
was fast compiler, it could also interpret some of an applications code 
loaded from a database. For a time, I used ObjectWorks (a VisualWorks 
precursor) to prototype stuff I recoded in Clipper. After Clipper, I 
started doing some stuff in FoxBase, which I agree was really neat for the 
time and PC equipment. Not being able to ship end-user modifiable code 
like I could with Clipper haunted me for a long time after that in my own 
later work in C++ or Delphi (or VisualWorks) -- one reason I liked Python 
and Squeak (this was before open source ideas of just ship the whole 
source took root).

Python definitely has a comfortable Clipper or FoxPro sort of feel. Not 
sure completely what defined that -- interactive turnaround? useful error 
messages?  the syntax? And I agree that helps with its adoption.

My phrasing was perhaps not clear. I think Python does have many benefits 
now for beginners or non-C users, but I feel its early success and 
continued (relatively) easy acceptance by industry derives from looking a 
lot like C without the braces. But I'll agree that feeling like dBase in 
terms of libraries or interactivity or some other aspect was a big win too.

--Paul Fernhout