[Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000

[Arthur]

kirby urner wrote:

> On 9/16/06, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> I am trying to say that some integration of algorithmics into required
>> math education is eminently sensible.
>
>
> As stated, that's too watered down to make a difference I should
> think.  Of course math education centers around algorithmics to some
> degree, but does that entail any use of a programming language that
> executes electronically?

Absolutely it does.  My recommendation happens to be one called Python.

> I'm satisfied that it does to.  But this position made a lot of sense
> several decades ago (nothing new in your view) and *still* most kids
> get little if any exposure to computer programming *except* through
> the CS door in college.

I don't require that my views represent anything new.  That's a harder 
task than I am prepared to try to handle, under this Sun.

And my point exactly, in many ways.

> So for you, just having a sensible position is the end of it, hey?
>
> Like, "the USA, IF using computer-controlled voting, THEN should have
> the source code be public and the process transparent."  A sensible
> position no?  So there's no fight shaping up, no battle lines to be
> drawn?
>
> I make sense, so now I get to go home and take bath and watch TV?


It is necessary, though not sufficient.

You tend to fail on the necessary part.

And as you know, I am not simply a passive observer to the scene.  I - 
like everyone - have my motives.  I would indeed like something like 
PyGeo, source code and all, to be something accessible to a decent range 
of folks. 

I need help.

> You also seem to shy away from focusing on children, just want to make
> sure the Disneys stay out of it somehow.

I am just more cautious about what I say in regard to the education of 
children.  I understand less.  I know I understand less, I say I 
understand less, but I am unconvinced I understand less than the folks 
who claim to understand more.

> People who don't properly defer to experts, when on expert turf, are
> considered arrogant.  "You must take your hat off in the presence of
> kings" is how no one says it anymore, but many still mean it through
> various social cues.

Who are the kinds here???  The geeks???

I defer to the educators.  But they are being hounded by the geeks and 
software vendors, and can't be expected to cut through that noise at 
this particular moment of time. For good reason, they can't tell who to 
rely on at this point.  If there is a moratorium on bold moves at this 
juncture, I support it.

Eventually the din will quiet, and folks will begin to rely on their 
common sense again, God willing.

> It wsa "on the right track" thirty years ago when people like Alan Kay
> first started taking this position.

Yeah.  But Alan Kay is a schmuck.

Art