<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div>On Dec 12, 2007, at Dec 12:11:26 AM, kirby urner wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Also people have different styles, like you</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">don't need to use a bare True, but might</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">go like:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">untouched = True</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">while untouched:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>keepmoving()</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">or something similar.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div></blockquote><br></div><div>True, and this is what I do, but I find myself more often than not, in the robotics context, thinking of the loop in "until" mode, and then reversing the logic to fit it into the "while". </div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I wouldn't make "intuitive" the guiding light in all cases, as it's</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">often just code for "conditioned reflex" or "what we're used to."</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Usually beginners outgrow their initial discomfort, like when</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">learning to drive stick instead of automatic or whatever.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></blockquote><br></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>That is also true, if the intuition were limited to the beginner. Unfortunately, I find myself thinking in this way, and I don't consider myself to be a beginner, and I have a firm understanding of while, for, and if structures. I think it is usually in the context of robotics, or moving agents, that I find that I think in terms of "until". I recognize that it is a special case, and not in the pythonic tradition, and I am not endorsing adding it for that reason.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>I'll try the while-true-if-break construct on for size, and see how well it fits my brain after using it for a while.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bb<br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div>-- </div><div>Brian Blais</div><div><a href="mailto:bblais@bryant.edu">bblais@bryant.edu</a></div><div><a href="http://web.bryant.edu/~bblais">http://web.bryant.edu/~bblais</a></div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span> </div><br></body></html>