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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I am changing the subject to better reflect the discussion. I have
posted a blog at <a
href="http://blogs.msdn.com/shrib/archive/2008/07/24/cls-compilation-of-ironpython.aspx">http://blogs.msdn.com/shrib/archive/2008/07/24/cls-compilation-of-ironpython.aspx</a>
discussing some issues I see.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Keith, as far as exposing IronPython types as System.Type, its
not just a question of inheriting from System.Type. If we did just that, the
resulting Type would not be usable from important APIs like
Activator.CreateInstance, from IL instructions like newobj, etc. because the
CLR has special knowledge about the System.Type object it creates from
metadata.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Also, LINQ to SQL does look like an interesting scenario. I
mention this at the end of the blog. However, the reason to collect real use
cases is to know exactly what features are needed. Supporting the full range of
CLS features may not be necessary. Knowing how folks are wanting to use the
feature can guide the design of the feature in the future. For example LINQ to
SQL only needs CustomAttributes on types but not on methods AFAIK. This may could
make a significant difference as support CustomAttributes on method is much
more complicated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>So do send in other use cases you have run into…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com [mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Dino Viehland<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 23, 2008 7:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of IronPython<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [IronPython] IronPython Post 2.0 Roadmap<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The only problem w/ the existing Type and MemberInfo classes is
that they all require inheritance demands to inherit from them. That
prevents us from subclassing them in anything core because it won’t work
in Silverlight or other partial trust scenarios. But it is something
we’ve been working w/ the CLR team on getting fixed so we’ll be
able to take that approach in the future – there’s other areas
where it’d be useful as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com
[mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Keith J. Farmer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 23, 2008 7:30 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of IronPython; Discussion of IronPython<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [IronPython] IronPython Post 2.0 Roadmap<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div id=idOWAReplyText58982>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I
can answer both in one: To be able to use IronPython to create data
classes, marked up with attributes, to be consumed by APIs probably
written in something other than IronPython.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>That's
it.. quite simple.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Example
of such an API: LINQ to SQL. Or LINQ to whatever, since outside of
of Objects and XML, things pretty much end up with mapping metadata and
attributes are one of the first places to look for that.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>And
so, in light of the DLR effort, and the general push to make the static
languages be able to work well with the dynamics, I think it's only right that
the DLR languages be able to expose their dynamic types in such as way as to be
transparent to the static languages. That's why I pointed out that Type
is an abstract class and the MemberInfo subclasses themselves appear to be
subclassable. It really appears that the API is there, waiting to be
implemented.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Otherwise,
really, the dynamic languages are completely unusable for certain APIs -- they
just don't interact with the reflection API in such a way that libraries can
consume in a reasonable, language-neutral manner.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com on
behalf of Curt Hagenlocher<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wed 7/23/2008 4:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of IronPython<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [IronPython] IronPython Post 2.0 Roadmap</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>So, we had a brief hallway discussion today about this topic,
and the upshot is that I'm interested in hearing your "real
world" use cases for <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>a) attributes, and<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>b) static type generation in general<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>By "use case", I mean
a scenario that's specifically relevant to you today. By
"relevant", I mean that it would be *nice* to be able to write a
PowerShell extension in Python, but if you didn't end up writing the extension
in another language, then it doesn't really count for what I'm looking for. :)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Keith J. Farmer <<a
href="mailto:kfarmer@thuban.org">kfarmer@thuban.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>We are talking about *new* features, but you're limiting
yourself to existing APIs?<br>
<br>
If, for the sake of working nicely with the DLR, the existing reflection API
needs to be modified to deal with a more dynamic world, that's not outside the
realm of possibility in my books. After all, there has always been talk
of IP being able to expose static types for consumption outside of IP. I
don't see that this is any less possible now than it was at the start.<br>
<br>
Incidentally, Type is an abstract class. Also, ParameterInfo isn't
sealed, and implements ICustomerAttributeProvider, which is a public interface:<br>
<br>
public interface ICustomAttributeProvider <<a
href="http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Reflection.ICustomAttributeProvider"
target="_blank">http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Reflection.ICustomAttributeProvider</a>><br>
{<br>
// Methods<br>
object <<a
href="http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Object"
target="_blank">http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Object</a>>
[] GetCustomAttributes <<a
href="http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Reflection.ICustomAttributeProvider/GetCustomAttributes(Boolean):Object%5b%5d"
target="_blank">http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Reflection.ICustomAttributeProvider/GetCustomAttributes(Boolean):Object%5b%5d</a>>
(bool <<a
href="http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Boolean"
target="_blank">http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Boolean</a>>
inherit);<br>
object <<a
href="http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Object"
target="_blank">http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Object</a>>
[] GetCustomAttributes <<a
href="http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Reflection.ICustomAttributeProvider/GetCustomAttributes(System.Type,Boolean):Object%5b%5d"
target="_blank">http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Reflection.ICustomAttributeProvider/GetCustomAttributes(System.Type,Boolean):Object%5b%5d</a>>
(Type <<a
href="http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Type"
target="_blank">http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Type</a>>
attributeType, bool <<a
href="http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Boolean"
target="_blank">http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Boolean</a>>
inherit);<br>
bool <<a
href="http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Boolean"
target="_blank">http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Boolean</a>>
IsDefined <<a
href="http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Reflection.ICustomAttributeProvider/IsDefined(System.Type,Boolean):Boolean"
target="_blank">http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Reflection.ICustomAttributeProvider/IsDefined(System.Type,Boolean):Boolean</a>>
(Type <<a
href="http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Type"
target="_blank">http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Type</a>>
attributeType, bool <<a
href="http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Boolean"
target="_blank">http://www.aisto.com/roeder/dotnet/Default.aspx?Target=code://mscorlib:2.0.0.0:b77a5c561934e089/System.Boolean</a>>
inherit);<br>
}<br>
<br>
<br>
So I think, actually, that this could be done without changing much if any
external API. They'd probably need to change some of the internals to
return dynamic variants of the info types, but I think that's doable.<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</a>
on behalf of Harry Pierson<br>
Sent: Mon 7/21/2008 12:59 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>To: Discussion of IronPython<br>
Subject: Re: [IronPython] IronPython Post 2.0 Roadmap<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
All of the many overloads of GetCustomAttributes (<a
href="http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.attribute.getcustomattributes(VS.85).aspx"
target="_blank">http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.attribute.getcustomattributes(VS.85).aspx</a>)
need some type of static type info (Type, MemberInfo, ParameterInfo). So
supporting custom attributes would require some type of static class as Michael
mentions below.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</a>]
On Behalf Of Michael Foord<br>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 12:48 PM<br>
To: Discussion of IronPython<br>
Subject: Re: [IronPython] IronPython Post 2.0 Roadmap<br>
<br>
Keith J. Farmer wrote:<br>
> Attributes can be applied to more than just types -- members,<br>
> parameters, return values (as I recall), etc.<br>
<br>
But those all presuppose a static type - right?<br>
<br>
IronPython could generate a static class in the compile phase where .NET<br>
attributes are used. Python decorator syntax could be used - class<br>
decorators are now part of Python 2.6 and no-one would object to you<br>
sneaking them into Python 2.5...<br>
<br>
Parameter and return type attributes could still use a method decorator<br>
to apply them.<br>
<br>
Michael<br>
<br>
><br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> *From:* <a href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</a>
on behalf of Curt Hagenlocher<br>
> *Sent:* Mon 7/21/2008 9:51 AM<br>
> *To:* Discussion of IronPython<br>
> *Subject:* Re: [IronPython] IronPython Post 2.0 Roadmap<br>
><br>
> "Availability of a static type" not because IronPython would
need to<br>
> access one but because it would need to expose one.<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 9:44 AM, Keith J. Farmer <<a
href="mailto:kfarmer@thuban.org">kfarmer@thuban.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:kfarmer@thuban.org">kfarmer@thuban.org</a>>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> You can create your own attribute classes, for whatever
markup.<br>
> Particularly since LINQ-to-*, where they often are
used to<br>
> annotate data classes with strings, etc (not references to
types).<br>
><br>
> In any event, why does "availability of a static
type" enter into<br>
> this? IP can access static types just as well as any
other .NET<br>
> language (System.Math comes to mind). The motivation
in general<br>
> is to make IP a better producer for CLR types, rather than
just a<br>
> consumer, and attributes are an increasingly important thing
to<br>
> support.<br>
><br>
> As for expression trees and extension methods, those are to
make<br>
> IP a better consumer of a very important API (LINQ and the<br>
> IQueryable stack from .NET 3.5).<br>
><br>
> To be honest, once those 3 features are available in IP, I
think<br>
> it would be on par with the mainstream languages in being
very<br>
> usable in an exclusive sense.<br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a
href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</a>><br>
> [mailto:<a href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a
href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</a>>]
On Behalf Of Harry<br>
> Pierson<br>
> Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 11:14 PM<br>
> To: Discussion of IronPython<br>
> Subject: Re: [IronPython] IronPython Post 2.0 Roadmap<br>
><br>
> Can you give me some examples where you would use these? The<br>
> problem I see is that many scenarios (WCF contracts, XML<br>
> serialization just to name two) where people want to use a
custom<br>
> attribute depends on the availability of a static type.<br>
><br>
> Harry<br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a
href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</a>><br>
> [mailto:<a href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a
href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</a>>]
On Behalf Of Keith J.<br>
> Farmer<br>
> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 8:13 PM<br>
> To: Discussion of IronPython<br>
> Subject: Re: [IronPython] IronPython Post 2.0 Roadmap<br>
><br>
> votes++<br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a
href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</a>><br>
> [mailto:<a href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a
href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</a>>]
On Behalf Of Michael<br>
> Foord<br>
> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 10:38 AM<br>
> To: Discussion of IronPython<br>
> Subject: Re: [IronPython] IronPython Post 2.0 Roadmap<br>
><br>
> Sanghyeon Seo wrote:<br>
> > 2008/7/20 Harry Pierson <<a
href="mailto:Harry.Pierson@microsoft.com">Harry.Pierson@microsoft.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Harry.Pierson@microsoft.com">Harry.Pierson@microsoft.com</a>>>:<br>
> ><br>
> >> Hosting features are all done via the DLR, so
that's a separate<br>
> team. As for<br>
> >> "ability to interact with the rest of the .Net
framework", can<br>
> you be more<br>
> >> specific about what you're looking for in that
space? What<br>
> *isn't* IPy doing<br>
> >> that you want it to?<br>
> >><br>
> ><br>
> > .NET attributes?<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> +1 :-)<br>
><br>
> Michael<br>
><br>
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