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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>w00t! </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;
color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> Thank you so much!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Adam Brand<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>SilverKey Technologies<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com
[mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jimmy Schementi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 21, 2009 3:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of IronPython<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [IronPython] IronPython for ASP.Net<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I completely agree with your points; we have a finite amount of
resources and choose to focus on language compatibility over .NET web-stack
integration. Though IronPython has done that web-work in the past, we’re purely
focused on compat. I’ve forwarded on the previous mail to the ASP.NET team; I
want to see IronPython and IronRuby be used on the web more too. =)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>That being said, <b>I’ve just finished packaging up
Microsoft.Web.Scripting.dll that works against the released IronPython 2 Beta
1, and I’ll be releasing it either today to tomorrow</b> … so end of
conversation? =P Na, I this is a good conversation to have, but in short you’ll
be able to use IronPython 2 Beta 1 in ASP.NET very soon again. Hopefully the
next beta of IronPython 2.6 will include the DLL and source, otherwise I’ll
make this package again.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~js<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Dody Gunawinata
[mailto:empirebuilder@gmail.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 21, 2009 4:23 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jimmy Schementi<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Discussion of IronPython<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [IronPython] IronPython for ASP.Net<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The refresh was unusable because it contained the version of
IronPyton that is not compatible with .Net 3.5 framework (I think it was built
on IP 2.0 Beta 3/4); <br>
<br>
I'm griping about this issue in this list because I don't think this is a
completely separate issue from the DLR programming languages. Maybe it is not a
direct responsibility of this team, but the impact is direct for the following
reasons:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type=disc>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'>Nobody adopts a language as is. The libraries
matters. The existing community of Python and Ruby are not going to move
to Windows platform just because IronPython and IronRuby are being worked
on and released. They have had a multi platform runtimes with de facto
standards that are capable of doing wonderful things for more than a
decade.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'>There is much bigger market for language adoption
for existing .Net/Windows based developers (and new developers) and these
guys/gals are using mostly standard Microsoft stacks. And they are using
.Net via mainly C# and VB.Net. If the DLR languages do not have proper
support at least for the major technology stacks (I would consider
ASP.Net/Silverlight as major stacks), many people will not consider using
the DLR based language for their production systems.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'>I know ASP.Net MVC is open source and it's free
to be extended etc, but ASP.Net WebForm have be en deployed massively and
that's not going to change anytime soon. And theres is already a support,
albeit poor and not up to date, for ASP.Net webform stacks in IronPython.
Not having it fully updated is a waste of opportunity.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'>.Net 4.0 and C# vNext contains dynamic language
support but really, what is good for if the DLR languages can only be used
in much more limited scenarios because some major technology stacks are
not supported.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'>You raised correctly that Django and RoR
are being used to validate the languages. But I would argue that the
existing technology stack support validates the DLR platform, not just the
languages. <o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>So yes, I'm not happy with the
level of investment being put on supporting the technology stacks because I
think it is pretty short sighted. No, I don't blame this team for this but at
least if I complain on this list, it might have a chance being forwarded
internally because this is one of the best community mailing list for Microsoft
technologies. <br>
<br>
Dody Gunawinata<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 5:17 AM, Jimmy Schementi <<a
href="mailto:Jimmy.Schementi@microsoft.com">Jimmy.Schementi@microsoft.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>First off, it hasn’t been three
years: a refresh was released 8 months ago, and sent to this very list:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><a
href="http://lists.ironpython.com/pipermail/users-ironpython.com/2008-September/008497.html"
target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>http://lists.ironpython.com/pipermail/users-ironpython.com/2008-September/008497.html</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Secondly, rather than just
producing these one off releases (where are very taxing on the team), we’re
doing it right and getting the source code released and Ms-Pl’d, so we can
include it on Codeplex sources, builds, and nightly builds. Then it can be
included in each IronPython release, just like Silverlight binaries are.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Lastly, IronRuby and IronPython
are programming languages, made by programming language teams. We’re very
interested in running as many existing Ruby and Python programs as possible. It
just so happens that Django and Rails are popular, complex pieces of software
that help find bugs, and give the languages street cred for running them. If
those web frameworks didn’t run, theirs probably something wrong with our
language. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Running in </span><a
href="http://ASP.NET" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>ASP.NET</span></a><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> and MVC require a significant amount of
work <b>outside</b> of the language, so it really isn’t a language team’s
purpose to build that. Sure they provide good demos as conferences or blog
posts, but they’ll only be toys. We’ve invested in those technologies before,
which is why the </span><a href="http://ASP.NET" target="_blank"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt'>ASP.NET</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
color:#1F497D'> and Silverlight integration exists, but no one is working on
enabling web-technologies full-time (though I have spurts of diving back into
Silverlight from time to time). If you don’t like the level of investment in
dynamic languages for Microsoft web technologies, that’s something that you
should communicate to the </span><a href="http://ASP.NET" target="_blank"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt'>ASP.NET</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
color:#1F497D'> team; Phil Haack (</span><a href="http://www.haacked.com"
target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>http://www.haacked.com</span></a><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>) or Dmitry Robsman (</span><a
href="http://blogs.msdn.com/dmitryr" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:
11.0pt'>http://blogs.msdn.com/dmitryr</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
color:#1F497D'>) are good people to address.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>~Jimmy</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> </span><a href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com"
target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</span></a><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> [mailto:</span><a
href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com" target="_blank"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</span></a><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dody Gunawinata<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 20, 2009 1:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of IronPython<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [IronPython] IronPython for ASP.Net</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p>Is there any update for IronPython for ASP.Net?<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>It has been three years since IronPython
support for ASP.Net introduced with the release of the whitepaper (<a
href="http://www.asp.net/DynamicLanguages/whitepaper/" target="_blank">http://www.asp.net/DynamicLanguages/whitepaper/</a>)
and the first binary. Since then I think we've had Katrina, a Beijing Olympic,
a new President, a financial collapse and two James Bond movies - yet until now
there is still no up to date support for the technology. I know that the legal
team, etc are working on the source release, but I think it is pretty galling
that Microsoft's own web framework stack is barely supported by its own dynamic
language technology, both on the 'classic' ASP.Net and MVC stack. I mean there
is more energy put into having IronPython and IronRuby to run Django and
RubyOnRails web framework instead of ASP.Net stack. This just doesn't make
sense to me.<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
<a href="http://nomadlife.org" target="_blank">nomadlife.org</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
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<br>
-- <br>
<a href="http://nomadlife.org">nomadlife.org</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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