<HTML dir=ltr><HEAD><TITLE>Re: [IronPython] IronPython 2.6 RC 1 Release Hidden</TITLE>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>"I told you so" in an underutilized but very powerful feature of any rapidly-changing technology. I think we should be making greater use of it.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>(No, it didn't count /g/)</FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com on behalf of Michael Foord<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wed 11/11/2009 2:04 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Discussion of IronPython<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [IronPython] IronPython 2.6 RC 1 Release Hidden<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
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<P><FONT size=2>Michael Foord wrote:<BR>> Keith J. Farmer wrote:<BR>>> While technically true -- I can't *stop* them -- I can tell them "I<BR>>> told you so" when support is rightfully removed.<BR>><BR>> Yep, and that's the *only* advantage of hiding releases - you get to<BR>> say I told you so. :-)<BR><BR>Oh, plus you don't clutter the download link. Does this still count as<BR>having the last word?<BR><BR>Michael<BR><BR>><BR>> Michael<BR>>> <BR>>> I agree it *would* be better to advertise that such-and-such version<BR>>> is not tracked for long-term support, rather than rely on the<BR>>> implication that "RC" means as much, but I don't see that the lack of<BR>>> advertisement is any significant omission, either. It's simply<BR>>> common sense.<BR>>><BR>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>> *From:* users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com on behalf of Michael Foord<BR>>> *Sent:* Wed 11/11/2009 1:20 PM<BR>>> *To:* Discussion of IronPython<BR>>> *Subject:* Re: [IronPython] IronPython 2.6 RC 1 Release Hidden<BR>>><BR>>> Keith J. Farmer wrote:<BR>>> > Well, perhaps because I don't see the upside in breaking things,<BR>>> either. Where I see an upside is in keeping people from taking<BR>>> inappropriate dependencies. :)<BR>>> ><BR>>> You won't stop them taking dependencies on the latest released version<BR>>> (people are building stuff against IP 2.6 RC 2 as we speak). All you do<BR>>> is make those dependencies unavailable to users once the next release is<BR>>> out.<BR>>> > Making use of IronPython in Action, by the way. One thing that<BR>>> seems to be missing from the hosting API discussion is talk about the<BR>>> ScriptRuntimeSetup classes. Might be worth a posting or two.<BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>> Sounds like something good to include in the next edition. :-)<BR>>><BR>>> All the best,<BR>>><BR>>> Michael<BR>>><BR>>> > -----Original Message-----<BR>>> > From: users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com<BR>>> [<A href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</A>] On Behalf Of Michael Foord<BR>>> > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 1:32 PM<BR>>> > To: Discussion of IronPython<BR>>> > Subject: Re: [IronPython] IronPython 2.6 RC 1 Release Hidden<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Hmm... I certainly don't suggest that the dynamic languages team<BR>>> > *support* obsolete versions, but in my experience it is 'unusual'<BR>>> for an<BR>>> > open source project to make previously released code / binaries<BR>>> > *completely* unavailable - support notwithstanding.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > For Python itself I believe you can download the sources for version<BR>>> > 0.9.1, but it isn't much of a maintenance burden these days...<BR>>> ><BR>>> > I don't see an upside to hiding code (or 'breaking things' as I<BR>>> like to<BR>>> > put it) in quite the same way you do. :-)<BR>>> ><BR>>> > All the best,<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Michael<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Keith J. Farmer wrote:<BR>>> > >> You're right .. the problem *is* a developer taking<BR>>> dependencies on<BR>>> >> specific releases. Further, I contend that it's the developer taking<BR>>> >> dependencies on experimental releases. That's improper, and why<BR>>> we as<BR>>> >> an industry label such things with "alpha", "beta", "RC" and so<BR>>> >> forth. Each of those are warning signs of "this may change, and you<BR>>> >> shouldn't depend on it yet".<BR>>> >> >> The low-level point releases, of course, represent (in theory)<BR>>> non-API<BR>>> >> fixes, and so the only dependency taken in those cases should not<BR>>> >> break, unless the dependency was on broken behavior in which case the<BR>>> >> end-user is more likely than not being sloppy. I have no qualms<BR>>> about<BR>>> >> them bleeding in that case.<BR>>> >> >> The years-long-betas of the *nix community notwithstanding, I'd as<BR>>> >> soon we stick to our guns regarding such things. Having to maintain<BR>>> >> (ie, support) n different versions is a tremendous burden. I myself<BR>>> >> had to maintain (no exaggeration) about 3 dozen different versions of<BR>>> >> the *same* product at one job, but there were other reasons that came<BR>>> >> to be.<BR>>> >> >> Would an image of a giant Monty Python foot stomping on the prior<BR>>> >> versions, with the caption "the version you are requesting has been<BR>>> >> obsoleted and is no longer supported -- use at your own risk" be an<BR>>> >> acceptable approach? :)<BR>>> >><BR>>> >><BR>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>> >> *From:* users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com on behalf of Michael Foord<BR>>> >> *Sent:* Tue 11/10/2009 12:34 PM<BR>>> >> *To:* Discussion of IronPython<BR>>> >> *Subject:* Re: [IronPython] IronPython 2.6 RC 1 Release Hidden<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> Keith J. Farmer wrote:<BR>>> >> >>> As for the question at hand, though :)<BR>>> >>><BR>>> >>> I'm not in blanket agreement here. I'd agree for some releases<BR>>> to be<BR>>> >>> valid dependency points, but things like RCs, betas, obsoleted<BR>>> >>> third-level versions -- not really.<BR>>> >>><BR>>> >>> In the first two cases, those are bleeding-edge releases. If you<BR>>> take<BR>>> >>> a dependency on them, expect to bleed.<BR>>> >>><BR>>> >>> >> The problem is that if a developer has used (and depended<BR>>> on) APIs in a<BR>>> >> specific release of IronPython then the person who bleeds is<BR>>> likely to<BR>>> >> be an end user rather than the developer (who may have moved onto<BR>>> other<BR>>> >> things without updating their project).<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> I don't have a problem with relegating obsolete releases to a small<BR>>> >> corner, but making them unavailable altogether is a high cost.<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> Michael<BR>>> >><BR>>> >><BR>>> >> >>> In the latter case, I wouldn't expect API differences, or<BR>>> other<BR>>> >>> breaking changes unless they represented critical bug fixes. <BR>>> Again, I<BR>>> >>> wouldn't want to support a dependency upon something horribly<BR>>> broken.<BR>>> >>><BR>>> >>> In light of the above, then, I'd propose keeping the following<BR>>> versions:<BR>>> >>><BR>>> >>> max(x).y.max(z)[.max(b)]<BR>>> >>><BR>>> >>> and strongly consider keeping:<BR>>> >>><BR>>> >>> [max(x)-1].y.max(z)[.max(b)]<BR>>> >>><BR>>> >>><BR>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>> >>> *From:* users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com on behalf of Michael<BR>>> Foord<BR>>> >>> *Sent:* Tue 11/10/2009 11:25 AM<BR>>> >>> *To:* Discussion of IronPython<BR>>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [IronPython] IronPython 2.6 RC 1 Release Hidden<BR>>> >>><BR>>> >>> Keith J. Farmer wrote:<BR>>> >>> >>>> "making releases that people / projects may have<BR>>> depended on is an<BR>>> >>>> >>> unacceptable cost"<BR>>> >>> >>>> You wanna rephrase that there, Michael? :)<BR>>> >>>><BR>>> >>>> >>> Ha. :-)<BR>>> >>><BR>>> >>> making unavailable releases that people....<BR>>> >>><BR>>> >>> Thanks<BR>>> >>><BR>>> >>> Michael<BR>>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message-----<BR>>> >>>> From: users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com<BR>>> >>>> >>> [<A href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com">mailto:users-bounces@lists.ironpython.com</A>] On Behalf<BR>>> Of Michael Foord<BR>>> >>> >>>> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 1:47 AM<BR>>> >>>> To: Discussion of IronPython<BR>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [IronPython] IronPython 2.6 RC 1 Release Hidden<BR>>> >>>><BR>>> >>>> Jimmy Schementi wrote:<BR>>> >>>><BR>>> >>>> >>>>> I agree, but I think the desire it to keep that<BR>>> "Releases" list<BR>>> >>>>> >>> clean. Otherwise it would have every release ever<BR>>> in there. It's a<BR>>> >>> CodePlex limitation that there is no way to hide those releases from<BR>>> >>> that list, while still keeping the links active.<BR>>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I understand the motivation, but<BR>>> making releases that people /<BR>>> >>>> >> projects<BR>>> >> >>>> may have depended on is an unacceptable cost in my opinion.<BR>>> >>>><BR>>> >>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> >>>> Users mailing list<BR>>> >>>> Users@lists.ironpython.com<BR>>> >>>> <A href="http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com">http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com</A><BR>>> >>>><BR>>> >>>> >>> --<BR>>> >>> <A href="http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/">http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/</A><BR>>> >>><BR>>> >>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> >>> Users mailing list<BR>>> >>> Users@lists.ironpython.com<BR>>> >>> <A href="http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com">http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com</A><BR>>> >>><BR>>> >>><BR>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>> >>><BR>>> >>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> >>> Users mailing list<BR>>> >>> Users@lists.ironpython.com<BR>>> >>> <A href="http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com">http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com</A><BR>>> >>> >>> >> --<BR>>> >> <A href="http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/">http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/</A><BR>>> >><BR>>> >> _______________________________________________<BR>>> >> Users mailing list<BR>>> >> Users@lists.ironpython.com<BR>>> >> <A href="http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com">http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com</A><BR>>> >><BR>>> >><BR>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> _______________________________________________<BR>>> >> Users mailing list<BR>>> >> Users@lists.ironpython.com<BR>>> >> <A href="http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com">http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com</A><BR>>> >> >> ><BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>><BR>>> --<BR>>> <A href="http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/">http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/</A><BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> Users mailing list<BR>>> Users@lists.ironpython.com<BR>>> <A href="http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com">http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com</A><BR>>><BR>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> Users mailing list<BR>>> Users@lists.ironpython.com<BR>>> <A href="http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com">http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com</A><BR>>> <BR>><BR>><BR><BR><BR>--<BR><A href="http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/">http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/</A><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Users mailing list<BR>Users@lists.ironpython.com<BR><A href="http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com">http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com</A><BR></FONT></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>