From barry at python.org  Mon Nov  2 03:52:41 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 21:52:41 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GNU Mailman roadmap
Message-ID: <8817269A-60B2-4160-A235-DD4F7CAD6024@python.org>

As you know, Mailman 2.1 has long been in maintenance-only mode.   
Mailman 2.2 was where we were going to add new features and update the  
user interface, without changing the basic model.  Mailman 3 was where  
we were going to fix the model and modernize the architecture to allow  
for better embedded use.  Mark has been doing an incredible job fixing  
Mailman 2.1, and forward porting these fixes to Mailman 2.2.  I have  
been working on Mailman 3 and have released several alphas.

The current state of affairs is not ideal though.  Neither 2.2 nor 3.0  
has been released, there is confusion in the community as to which  
version to develop patches for, and frustration on our part that we  
have divided efforts and not as much community participation as we'd  
like.

Mark and I have decided therefore to combine our efforts under Mailman  
3, and we invite you to join us.  Working together, I feel confident  
that we can have a solid release of Mailman 3 very soon, hopefully by  
the end of the year.  Patrick Koetter and his group have expressed  
interest and resources in helping jump start the new Mailman user  
interface, which will be built on top of Mailman 3's REST interface.   
What do /you/ want to work on? :)

Here's the plan: Mark is going to put a 2.1.13 bug fix release out  
soon and will continue to fix only the most important bugs on the 2.1  
branch.  He'll forward port those fixes to the 2.2 branch for the few  
people who are running it from source, but there will never be a  
Mailman 2.2 release.  For all practical purposes, Mailman 2.2 is  
dead.  Mark will be joining me to focus all new development work on  
Mailman 3.0.

I hope this brings clarity to where we're going, and I hope that the  
renewed and concentrated efforts will encourage you to pull down the  
Mailman 3.0 code or alphas and begin testing and developing for it.

Enjoy,
-Barry

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From Brian.Mingus at Colorado.EDU  Mon Nov  2 06:59:36 2009
From: Brian.Mingus at Colorado.EDU (Brian J Mingus)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 22:59:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] GNU Mailman roadmap
In-Reply-To: <8817269A-60B2-4160-A235-DD4F7CAD6024@python.org>
References: <8817269A-60B2-4160-A235-DD4F7CAD6024@python.org>
Message-ID: <9839a05c0911012159g37549f49vb21def8ff635f629@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Barry Warsaw <barry at python.org> wrote:

> As you know, Mailman 2.1 has long been in maintenance-only mode.  Mailman
> 2.2 was where we were going to add new features and update the user
> interface, without changing the basic model.  Mailman 3 was where we were
> going to fix the model and modernize the architecture to allow for better
> embedded use.  Mark has been doing an incredible job fixing Mailman 2.1, and
> forward porting these fixes to Mailman 2.2.  I have been working on Mailman
> 3 and have released several alphas.
>
> The current state of affairs is not ideal though.  Neither 2.2 nor 3.0 has
> been released, there is confusion in the community as to which version to
> develop patches for, and frustration on our part that we have divided
> efforts and not as much community participation as we'd like.
>
> Mark and I have decided therefore to combine our efforts under Mailman 3,
> and we invite you to join us.  Working together, I feel confident that we
> can have a solid release of Mailman 3 very soon, hopefully by the end of the
> year.  Patrick Koetter and his group have expressed interest and resources
> in helping jump start the new Mailman user interface, which will be built on
> top of Mailman 3's REST interface.  What do /you/ want to work on? :)
>
> Here's the plan: Mark is going to put a 2.1.13 bug fix release out soon and
> will continue to fix only the most important bugs on the 2.1 branch.  He'll
> forward port those fixes to the 2.2 branch for the few people who are
> running it from source, but there will never be a Mailman 2.2 release.  For
> all practical purposes, Mailman 2.2 is dead.  Mark will be joining me to
> focus all new development work on Mailman 3.0.
>
> I hope this brings clarity to where we're going, and I hope that the
> renewed and concentrated efforts will encourage you to pull down the Mailman
> 3.0 code or alphas and begin testing and developing for it.
>
> Enjoy,
> -Barry


Perhaps the failure of the mailman dev team to attract community
participation can be related not to any crazy versioning scheme but rather
to a failure to engage with the community. I have only recently subscribed
to this list and I can say that you and every other person that read my
e-mail saw fit to ignore it. Your null hypothesis, namely that people who
send questions and not patches to the list are not worth your time, costs
you dearly in the long run.

/Brian

From kaja at cs.au.dk  Mon Nov  2 10:25:15 2009
From: kaja at cs.au.dk (Kaja P. Christiansen)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:25:15 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman/admindb: request for 'redirect' action
Message-ID: <4AEEA57B.6020902@cs.au.dk>


[This posting was originally sent on Oct 27th
but it seems it didn't make it to the list]

Hello all,

Our MTA provides strong and effective spam filtering
(MIMEdefang with Solido/greylisting/NilSimsa). Part
of the process is redirecting spam which gets through
to our spam filters.

In my role as Mailman site administrator for two busy domains
(at two continents :-) I have been greatly missing the 'Redirect'
action for mailman/admindb. Although Mailman has currently
4 actions and 4 sender filters in mailman/admindb, none of these
can be used for automated redirection of spam messages.

A field for an address for redirection of spam and a 'Redirect'
button would make a big difference for list administrators!

My apologies if this topic was already discussed -
mail archives for mailman-developers seemed down or very
busy today, so I couldn't check.

Kaja






From joost at greenskin.net  Tue Nov 10 13:52:30 2009
From: joost at greenskin.net (Joost Schuttelaar)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:52:30 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FR: obscure email address in archives
Message-ID: <393279D3-2659-416D-B445-5643F08C2195@greenskin.net>

When the obscure email address feature in the admin settings is  
enabled, e-mail addresses are transformed into the format 'xxx AT xxx'  
in the archives. This may have worked 5 years ago to prevent spam  
harvesting. But it does not work anymore.

I've patched (well... butchered) my own install by modifying  
HyperArch.py to simply output 'EMAIL HIDDEN' instead of the obscured e- 
mail address, by replacing the regexes to a constant string at line 284.

I think a 'proper' feature like this would be a very welcome addition.  
Right now, it would be trivial to write a script to harvest tens of  
thousands of e-mail addresses from Mailman users...

-- 

Joost Schuttelaar
The Hague, NL


From barry at python.org  Wed Nov 11 15:36:43 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:36:43 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] GNU Mailman roadmap
In-Reply-To: <9839a05c0911012159g37549f49vb21def8ff635f629@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8817269A-60B2-4160-A235-DD4F7CAD6024@python.org>
	<9839a05c0911012159g37549f49vb21def8ff635f629@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7FC13E2F-1D3B-46FF-83E0-018E1B51268B@python.org>

On Nov 1, 2009, at 11:59 PM, Brian J Mingus wrote:

> Perhaps the failure of the mailman dev team to attract community
> participation can be related not to any crazy versioning scheme but  
> rather
> to a failure to engage with the community. I have only recently  
> subscribed
> to this list and I can say that you and every other person that read  
> my
> e-mail saw fit to ignore it. Your null hypothesis, namely that  
> people who
> send questions and not patches to the list are not worth your time,  
> costs
> you dearly in the long run.

Hi Brian,

I'm sorry, but I don't remember seeing your message on the list.  For  
any misunderstandings like this, I take full blame and  
responsibility.  I can say that I value all contributions from the  
community, whether it be in the form of questions, patches,  
complaints, kudos, or stacks of dollar bills. :)

I think the mailman-developers list is fairly typical for an open  
source project.  I invite you to repost your message and this time  
I'll keep an eye out for it.

-Barry

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From barry at python.org  Wed Nov 11 15:37:56 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:37:56 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman/admindb: request for 'redirect'
	action
In-Reply-To: <4AEEA57B.6020902@cs.au.dk>
References: <4AEEA57B.6020902@cs.au.dk>
Message-ID: <47D8B1E6-EDB0-4246-8C6C-1905E92E1A8D@python.org>

On Nov 2, 2009, at 3:25 AM, Kaja P. Christiansen wrote:

> A field for an address for redirection of spam and a 'Redirect'
> button would make a big difference for list administrators!

I really want imap access for admindb functionality. ;)

-Barry

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From barry at python.org  Wed Nov 11 15:40:47 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:40:47 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FR: obscure email address in archives
In-Reply-To: <393279D3-2659-416D-B445-5643F08C2195@greenskin.net>
References: <393279D3-2659-416D-B445-5643F08C2195@greenskin.net>
Message-ID: <2FE99400-14EB-4CA0-9E4C-41C89228859C@python.org>

On Nov 10, 2009, at 6:52 AM, Joost Schuttelaar wrote:

> When the obscure email address feature in the admin settings is  
> enabled, e-mail addresses are transformed into the format 'xxx AT  
> xxx' in the archives. This may have worked 5 years ago to prevent  
> spam harvesting. But it does not work anymore.
>
> I've patched (well... butchered) my own install by modifying  
> HyperArch.py to simply output 'EMAIL HIDDEN' instead of the obscured  
> e-mail address, by replacing the regexes to a constant string at  
> line 284.

Agreed.  I'm in the process right now of separating Pipermail (from  
the Mailman 3 branch) into its own project on Launchpad.  Hopefully  
this will enable and inspire folks to contribute changes to that  
project.

I plan to structure it as a typical distutils-style project so that  
it's very easy to integrate into Mailman, but separate enough that  
it's useful on its own.  You can follow the progress here:

https://launchpad.net/pipermail

-Barry

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From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 11 15:47:15 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 06:47:15 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GNU Mailman roadmap
In-Reply-To: <9839a05c0911012159g37549f49vb21def8ff635f629@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200911110647150593105aea20@msapiro>

Brian J Mingus wrote:
>
>Perhaps the failure of the mailman dev team to attract community
>participation can be related not to any crazy versioning scheme but rather
>to a failure to engage with the community. I have only recently subscribed
>to this list


You are subscribed to mailman-users, not mailman-developers.


>and I can say that you and every other person that read my
>e-mail saw fit to ignore it.


Not true. There have been extreme moderation delays recently and your
post was only delivered to the mailman-users list on Sunday and it has
not been ignored.

I apologize for the moderation delay. We have added more resources to
the task which we hope will help.


>Your null hypothesis, namely that people who
>send questions and not patches to the list are not worth your time, costs
>you dearly in the long run.


If you read the archives of the mailman-users and mailman-developers
lists, I think you'll find that the above statement is unjustified.

Further, during the moderation delay, I had an irc conversation on
#mailman with someone about the subject of your original mailman-users
post. Was that you? Does that seem like I think your issue is not
worth my time?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 11 15:51:52 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 06:51:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Network is unreachable
In-Reply-To: <c6144a8d0910290413r76834128h422ec99e8e5b48be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200911110651520562105aea26@msapiro>

Gerheim wrote:
>
>I've terminated to configure my server but when I create a list, the welcome
>message stops on queue.
>Analysing /var/log/mailman/smtp-failure I get:
>
>Oct 29 09:04:29 2009 (18551) delivery to test at xxx.xxx.xxx failed with code
>-1: (101, 'Network is unreachable')
>
>Could anyone help?


This is more a question for mailman-users at python.org, but ...

Mailman is unable to connect the the SMTP server defined as SMTPHOST in
Defaults.py/mm_cfg.py. This is normally 'localhost'.

Do you have an entry like

127.0.0.1  localhost

in /etc/hosts?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 11 15:56:02 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 06:56:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FR: obscure email address in archives
In-Reply-To: <393279D3-2659-416D-B445-5643F08C2195@greenskin.net>
Message-ID: <PC195200911110656020515de58f3c5@msapiro>

Joost Schuttelaar wrote:

>When the obscure email address feature in the admin settings is  
>enabled, e-mail addresses are transformed into the format 'xxx AT xxx'  
>in the archives. This may have worked 5 years ago to prevent spam  
>harvesting. But it does not work anymore.


You may be interested in the thread "Proposed: remove
address-obfuscation code from Mailman 3" starting at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2009-August/020741.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Wed Nov 11 16:00:34 2009
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:00:34 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Network is unreachable
In-Reply-To: <c6144a8d0910290413r76834128h422ec99e8e5b48be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c6144a8d0910290413r76834128h422ec99e8e5b48be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091111150034.GW24624@amyl.org.uk>

On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 09:13:32AM -0200, Gerheim wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I've terminated to configure my server but when I create a list, the welcome
> message stops on queue.
> Analysing /var/log/mailman/smtp-failure I get:
> 
> Oct 29 09:04:29 2009 (18551) delivery to test at xxx.xxx.xxx failed with code
> -1: (101, 'Network is unreachable')

'xxx' is not (yet) a valid TLD[1]. If that's an effort to obfuscate,
it might be useful to not do so, so we can look up things like MX
records.

Is this transient, or permanent?
Does DNS resolution ordinarily work?
Is the host ping'able?
Are there routing problems/issues?

&c &c.


[1] http://iana.org/domains/root/db


-- 
``... a difficulty for every solution'' (Samuel, on the Civil Service)

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Nov 11 17:53:34 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 01:53:34 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] GNU Mailman roadmap
In-Reply-To: <9839a05c0911012159g37549f49vb21def8ff635f629@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8817269A-60B2-4160-A235-DD4F7CAD6024@python.org>
	<9839a05c0911012159g37549f49vb21def8ff635f629@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87pr7pvw8h.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brian J Mingus writes:
 > I have only recently subscribed to this list and I can say that you
 > and every other person that read my e-mail saw fit to ignore
 > it.

I don't see anything in my folder or in the archives for this list
(Mailman Developers).  Perhaps you are referring to your post
"E-mail-based moderation" to Mailman Users?  If so, it would seem that
you have "seen fit to ignore" the replies you've already received:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-November/067633.html
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-November/067646.html

It's quite reasonable for the developers to see replies from users
known to usually give good advice and assume the matter is settled, at
least until there's a followup.  It's not so reasonable for you to
assume that things regularly get dropped on the floor when you
discover that one similar message to a different list went unanswered
18 months ago, especially when you could just eyeball a few months'
worth of "thread view" in the archives and see it's simply not true.

 > Your null hypothesis, namely that people who send questions and not
 > patches to the list are not worth your time, costs you dearly in
 > the long run.

In fact the developers are quite good about replying on this list, and
some of the developers are usually available on the Mailman Users
list[1], as well as between 5 and 20 experienced users who are able to
answer most questions posed there.  It's true that the OPs don't
always consider the replies to be responsive to their needs, but then
I gather the developers' and FAQ meisters' salaries are several
million dollars in arrears....

While it's the obvious/traditional thing to do, making a request for
enhancement on a mailing list is no longer the most effective way to
get action.  Better would be to submit a "wishlist" bug at

https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/

because that won't get lost, or accidentally flushed from an INBOX if
overlooked for 48 hours.[2]  Wishlist bugs probably don't do as well as
average, but the details page (append "+bugs" to the above URL) shows
643 open bugs out of 1820, so about 2/3 of the reported bugs have been
addressed.  Many of the bugs labelled "new" have comments from
developers, and some are waiting on further input (sometimes for years
:-) from the reporter.


Footnotes: 
[1]  I personally wish Mark would cut his FAQ-answering time by about
80%; there are plenty of experienced users who can do the job well enough.

[2]  I think you have to go through a mildly annoying registration
process to submit a bug or feature request, but you only have to do it
once.



From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 12 08:45:24 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:45:24 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] GNU Mailman roadmap
In-Reply-To: <87pr7pvw8h.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <PC195200911112345240765f2fe08d5@msapiro>

Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>[1]  I personally wish Mark would cut his FAQ-answering time by about
>80%; there are plenty of experienced users who can do the job well enough.


Of course you are right, but there is a reason my nickname on the
acknowledgements page is "Mailman's compulsive responder". I also have
a motto (not completely joking) "OCD is a terrible thing to waste".

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From peibel at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 19 11:58:32 2009
From: peibel at hotmail.com (peibel80)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:58:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mail of subscribe to mailing list with
 multiple users
Message-ID: <26421277.post@talk.nabble.com>



Hi, 

I?m new with Maiman.

I need make mail of subscription with multiple users,

Is possible make a mail with name-request at sudominio.com with several lines
of subscribe [contrase?a] [digest|nodigest] [address=]  command 

if is yes, I need a example,

if is not possible, as can be done?

thanks,

Sorry for my inglish
-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Mail-of-subscribe-to-mailing-list-with-multiple-users-tp26421277p26421277.html
Sent from the Mailman - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 19 17:33:37 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:33:37 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mail of subscribe to mailing list
	withmultiple users
In-Reply-To: <26421277.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952009111908333701717ef8cf10@msapiro>

peibel80 wrote:
>
>I need make mail of subscription with multiple users,
>
>Is possible make a mail with name-request at sudominio.com with several lines
>of subscribe [contrase?a] [digest|nodigest] [address=]  command 
>
>if is yes, I need a example,


This question is more appropriate for mailman-users at python.org
<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users>, but...

The email subscribe interface is designed for users to request their
own subscription, but it does allow alternate address specification,
so it will accommodate what you want.

You could send an email to name-request at sudominio.com with multiple
subscribe commands such as the following. You can put the first
subscribe caoomand in the Subject: and the rest in the body, or you
can put them all in the body with no Subject: or an innocuous subject
that doesn't say "subscribe"

example commands:

subscribe xyz01qwe digest address=user1 at example.com
subscribe address=user2 at example.com
subscribe nodigest

The first requests subscription for user1 at example.com in digest mode
with list password xyz01qwe

The second requests subscription for user2 at example.com with mode
determined by the list's digest_is_default setting and a randomly
generated list password

The third requests subscription for the sender of the email in
non-digest mode with a randomly generated list password

There are other possibilities. Note that the only way to specify a
'real name' is to not specify the address= option which will then take
the name and address from the From: header of the request.

Also, note that these are not 'administrative' subscribes; they are
user requests and as such are subject to confirmation/approval as
determined by the list's subscribe_policy.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan