From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 00:17:11 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:17:11 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
Message-ID: <200609010017.11978.k.oliver@t-online.de>

Hello,
I installed and configured mailman on Debian Sarge running apache2 and exim4. 
I set up a list and the list adminstrator / owner can post to the list from a 
remote client. I am pretty sure that the mailman config is right and that 
there is a problem with the exim4 config. Non local subscribers cannot post 
to the list. The Exim4 log always says that relay is not permitted. 

/var/log/exim4/mainlog:
2006-09-01 00:00:52 H=mailout01.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.80] 
F=<k.oliver at t-online.de> rejected RCPT <news at server.windfinder.com>: relay 
not permitted

Here are parts of my exim4 config:
[..]
# On Debian systems, the main binary is installed as exim4 to avoid
# conflicts with the exim 3 packages.
exim_path = /usr/sbin/exim4

# Macro defining the main configuration directory.
# We do not use absolute paths.
.ifndef CONFDIR
CONFDIR = /etc/exim4
.endif

# This sets a macro DC_minimaldns if dc_minimaldns=true. If
# dc_minimaldns=false, this expands to an empty line.
.ifndef DC_minimaldns
DEBCONFminimaldnsDEBCONF
.endif

# Create other macros from Debconf. Macros created here are used in
# other places in exim config.
.ifndef DC_visiblename
DC_visiblename=DEBCONFvisiblenameDEBCONF
.endif

# Create domain and host lists for relay control
# '@' refers to 'the name of the local host'

.ifndef MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS
MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS = DEBCONFlocal_domainsDEBCONF
.endif
domainlist local_domains = MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS

.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS
MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS = DEBCONFrelay_domainsDEBCONF
.endif
domainlist relay_to_domains = MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS

.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_NETS
MAIN_RELAY_NETS = DEBCONFrelay_netsDEBCONF
.endif
hostlist relay_from_hosts = 127.0.0.1 : ::::1 : MAIN_RELAY_NETS

# Specify the domain you want to be added to all unqualified addresses
# here. Unqualified addresses are accepted only from local callers by
# default. The recipient_unqualified_hosts option can be used to permit
# unqualified addresses from remote sources.
# If qualify_domain is not set, the primary_hostname value is used for
# qualification.
# The ifdef bracket makes sure that an empty debconf value is correctly
# translated to "unset".
.ifdef DC_visiblename
qualify_domain = DC_visiblename
.endif
[..]
# Home dir for your Mailman installation -- aka Mailman's prefix
# directory.
# By default this is set to "/usr/local/mailman"
# On a Red Hat/Fedora system using the RPM use "/var/mailman"
# On Debian using the deb package use "/var/lib/mailman"
# This is normally the same as ~mailman
MAILMAN_HOME=/var/lib/mailman
#
# User and group for Mailman, should match your --with-mail-gid
# switch to Mailman's configure script.
# Value is normally "mailman"
MAILMAN_USER=list
MAILMAN_GROUP=daemon
#
# Domains that your lists are in - colon separated list
# you may wish to add these into local_domains as well
domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS=news.server.windfinder.com
#
# -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
#
# These values are derived from the ones above and should not need
# editing unless you have munged your mailman installation
#
# The path of the Mailman mail wrapper script
MAILMAN_WRAP=MAILMAN_HOME/mail/mailman
#
# The path of the list config file (used as a required file when
# verifying list addresses)
MAILMAN_LISTCHK=MAILMAN_HOME/lists/${lc::$local_part}/config.pck
[..]
begin routers

mailman_router:
driver = accept
require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
local_part_suffix_optional
local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
-confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
-owner : -request : -admin
transport = mailman_transport
[..]
begin transports

mailman_transport:
driver = pipe
command = MAILMAN_WRAP \
'${if def:local_part_suffix \
{${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
{post}}' \
$local_part
current_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
home_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
user = MAILMAN_USER
group = MAILMAN_GROUP

Any idea how to configure Exim4 to allow posting to mailing list for 
subscribers like someone at somedomain.tld?


From tomnaugh at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 00:56:43 2006
From: tomnaugh at gmail.com (Tom Kavanaugh)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:56:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View Subscriber list format
In-Reply-To: <98a90c220608311436i14e1cd7dmbbb0fa6bf7c5eb21@mail.gmail.com>
References: <98a90c220608311013k1972c218t6dcb2c688971546f@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC17602006083110270805315071e57b@msapiro>
	<98a90c220608311436i14e1cd7dmbbb0fa6bf7c5eb21@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <98a90c220608311556r292cda74p9e8d96540b2cc8fb@mail.gmail.com>

Is there a way to incorporate this change across all exisitng mail lists?
I looked at commands in mailman/bin but did not find any command that could
do this for me. Or, am I missing something?

Later,
Tom

On 8/31/06, Tom Kavanaugh <tomnaugh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> That workes!
> Thanks folks.
>
>
> On 8/31/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> >
> > Tom Kavanaugh wrote:
> > >
> > >Currently "View subscribers list" displays members in the following
> > format:
> > >first.last at my.domain.com
> > >
> > >Is it possible to change the format to:
> > >first.last at my.domain.com
> >
> >
> > in the list admin intervace set Privacy options...->Subscription
> > rules->obscure_addresses to No.
> >
> > This will display the email address with '@' instead of ' at '. The
> > 'local part' of the address will be unchanged. If it is of form
> > first.last, it will be shown that way, but if it is of some other
> > form, it will be shown as whatever it is.
> >
> > --
> > Mark Sapiro < msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> > San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> >
> >
>


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 01:01:25 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:01:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <200609010017.11978.k.oliver@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <PC17602006083116012505783de67c9b@msapiro>

Oliver K?nig wrote:

>I am pretty sure that the mailman config is right and that 
>there is a problem with the exim4 config. Non local subscribers cannot post 
>to the list. The Exim4 log always says that relay is not permitted. 


Yes, that would be an Exim config problem.


>Here are parts of my exim4 config:
<snip>
># Domains that your lists are in - colon separated list
># you may wish to add these into local_domains as well
>domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS=news.server.windfinder.com


And what about server.windfinder.com? And did you add it to
local_domains?


<snip>
>mailman_router:
>driver = accept
>require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
>local_part_suffix_optional
>local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
>-confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
>-owner : -request : -admin
>transport = mailman_transport


The above is incomplete. It is not the cause of your problem, but see
<http://www.exim.org/howto/mailman21.html#roconf> for what the
mailman_router: should be. In particular, the above is missing
-confirm, -subscribe and -unsubscribe in local_part_suffix and is
missing
domains = +MAILMAN_DOMAINS to prevent mail to an address that looks
like a list but in another domain from being delivered to the list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 01:22:14 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:22:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View Subscriber list format
In-Reply-To: <98a90c220608311556r292cda74p9e8d96540b2cc8fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006083116221403123de67b86@msapiro>

Tom Kavanaugh wrote:
>
>Is there a way to incorporate this change across all exisitng mail lists?
>I looked at commands in mailman/bin but did not find any command that could
>do this for me. Or, am I missing something?


First, you want to put

DEFAULT_OBSCURE_ADDRESSES = No

in mm_cfg.py so new lists will be created with obscure_address = No.

Then you have two choices for existing lists, bin/withlist and
bin/config_list. config_list is easier to describe so, put the
following 1 line in a file

obscure_addresses = 0

and run a shell script like

#!/bin/sh
for list in `bin/list_lists --bare`
do bin/config_list -i file $list
done

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 01:09:08 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:09:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
Message-ID: <p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>

At 10:06 AM -0700 2006-08-31, John W. Baxter quoted "Brad Knowles" 
<brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>:

>>  We're not a commercial environment, and we've actually had pretty bad
>>  experiences with people/companies that are in commercial environments
>>  taking our software and making unapproved modifications to it, or
>>  providing the software to their customers but *not* providing
>>  adequate support to those customers.
>
>  "unapproved" may be a bit strong.  Perhaps "un-vetted" would be closer?

Actually, I think either "unapproved" or "unauthorized" are the most 
appropriate terms.  After all, the code is released under the GPL, 
and anyone who is making modifications to that code and then making 
their modified version available to their customers (or otherwise 
benefiting from those modifications) are supposed to contribute the 
source to their changes back to the community.  But CPanel has not 
done this, neither has Plesk, nor Apple.

Now, in a way, Apple gives back to the project more than they 
probably realize, but that's not the same thing.


So, while we don't make that big a deal of this issue, I think I'm 
actually being reasonably lenient on these companies.

>>  I just recently wrote a FAQ entry on this subject -- see FAQ 1.32.
>
>  Quite nicely done!

Thanks!

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 01:24:40 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:24:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <44F72DF3.4060706@hivemind.net>
References: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>
	<25DB89FB2DB1CFAAF1AB8959@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>
	<44F72DF3.4060706@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <p06240508c11d1fba0a8a@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:44 PM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote:

>  The point I was illustrating is that if you have to justify the rationale
>  behind a default setting to a third-party-decision-maker -- what is the most
>  appropriate and concise response?

This is the key point that was not coming across to me, at least not 
until much later in the exchange.  Speaking only for myself, I 
seriously misunderstood what you were asking and why, which greatly 
colored my responses.

I'm still not certain that we've given you the best answer to this 
question, but I'm hoping that you'll be able to synthesize something 
that you will then be able to contribute back to the community, and 
we will hopefully be able to avoid these kinds of problems in the 
future -- at least with respect to this one particular issue.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 01:21:10 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:21:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <44F729B6.7000507@hivemind.net>
References: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060831102919.0632dfa0@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F729B6.7000507@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <p06240507c11d1d076879@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:25 PM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote:

>  I view it differently. I have had great feedback and I highly doubt either
>  of the parties mentioned viewed a response as a "restraining, difficult
>  exercise". I /really/ use lists to their full advantage and with some in
>  particular have never felt my input or response was an exercise in patience
>  or restraint. It's a labour of love. You do it because it's what you do.

Maybe I'm getting better at this process than I have been in the 
past, but I most definitely held back quite a bit in my responses.  I 
did allow myself to get a bit testy, but that's about it.

It took me a while to realize that you were more playing devil's 
advocate (on behalf of your boss) as opposed to actually believing in 
some of the things you were saying.


And yes, a great deal of context is lost in e-mail.  Remember that 
about 90% of all human communication is not verbalized, and of the 
remainder about 90% is more in the tone of how you respond as opposed 
to the actual words that are chosen.  Pretty much all of that is lost 
in e-mail, leaving only the words -- and about 1% of what would 
normally be conveyed in a natural human conversation.

>  That's not to say I don't appreciate a response (some time after the fact)
>  with another avenue to explore (thanks Mark) but compare the difference
>  between "you're harping on about nothing" to "have you tried this?". The
>  latter (in hindsight) is blindingly obvious -- and yet no-one else let their
>  sub-conscious ponder the problem a while longer.

A lot of my responses were defensive in nature, responding to the way 
I felt that our entire community was being attacked, and I took that 
pretty personally.

As such, there really wasn't any time available for me to ponder the 
question in any more depth.  If I'd had that time, I might have been 
able to find a better way to convey what it was I was trying to get 
across.

Now, I may have managed to moderate my response quite a bit, but that 
doesn't change the fundamental nature of the situation as it occurred.

>  Lists are communities. And community isn't about 'gifts' from the elders or
>  sticking to sensible rules. It's about invigorating the elders so they feel
>  like children in a toy-store again.

It should be about enabling people to contribute something and allow 
them to feel useful, in whatever way that they find that they are 
best able to do.  We don't always succeed in that goal, however.  But 
as we work towards that goal, we should find that when everyone helps 
everyone else, we all benefit from the combined strength, and the 
result is much greater than the sum of its parts.

The big problem comes when a new person comes in, or a new situation 
occurs, and one or more members of the community feels like they are 
being attacked, and how they respond.  The result can either 
strengthen the enlarged community, or be extremely destructive.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 07:32:01 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:32:01 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brad Knowles writes:
 > At 10:06 AM -0700 2006-08-31, John W. Baxter quoted "Brad Knowles" 
 > <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>:
 > 
 > >>  We're not a commercial environment, and we've actually had pretty bad
 > >>  experiences with people/companies that are in commercial environments
 > >>  taking our software and making unapproved modifications to it, or
 > >>  providing the software to their customers but *not* providing
 > >>  adequate support to those customers.
 > >
 > >  "unapproved" may be a bit strong.  Perhaps "un-vetted" would be closer?
 > 
 > Actually, I think either "unapproved" or "unauthorized" are the most 
 > appropriate terms.  After all, the code is released under the GPL, 

Excuse me?  The GPL *explicitly* approves and authorizes (not to
mention implicitly encourages) modification and redistribution without
conditions other than providing source.  That's exactly what "license"
means.

Has anybody at Mailman asked CPanel, Plesk, or Apple for source and
been refused?  Or one of their customers, and been refused because
they were under NDA?  If we haven't asked, how can we bitch?

 > and anyone who is making modifications to that code and then making 
 > their modified version available to their customers (or otherwise 
 > benefiting from those modifications) are supposed to contribute the 
 > source to their changes back to the community.  But CPanel has not 
 > done this, neither has Plesk, nor Apple.

C'mon, Brad, you know what the GPL actually says.  They're supposed to
give the source to their customers.  That's all it says.

It is quite possible to write a license that says you *must* give your
modifications back to some entity.  You could argue that the reason
the GPL doesn't do that is that "the community" is the only
appropriate beneficiary, but it's impossible to legally define "the
community" in a satisfactory way.  But I don't think that's what
Richard Stallman has in mind when he declares licenses containing such
clauses "unfree".  Nor do they satisfy the DFSG or the OSD.  I believe
it's that the whole idea of demanding payment of any kind is unfree.

 > So, while we don't make that big a deal of this issue, I think I'm 
 > actually being reasonably lenient on these companies.

I would say we're not trying to accomplish by jawbone what we refuse
to put in the license.  And that's very important to me.  It's one of
the things I like best about this community.  Of course you're
certainly welcome to consider that you're being lenient; I'm simply
explaining that I very much appreciate your lenience, but I
rationalize it differently.

Once again, has anybody simply *asked* these companies for their code,
and maybe for some contribution of labor toward integrating it?  If
so, how recently?  I realize that we probably "dislike" some of their
changes, so they wouldn't make it into the mainline (at least not as
defaults), but it could exist on more or less deprecated branches.
Surely there are CPanel- or Plesk-using ISPs who would like to have
Mailman project support available to their customers; we should be
able to get moral, if not financial, support from them.

Sincere regards,
Steve




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 08:39:21 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:39:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:32 PM +0900 2006-09-01, <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

>  Excuse me?  The GPL *explicitly* approves and authorizes (not to
>  mention implicitly encourages) modification and redistribution without
>  conditions other than providing source.  That's exactly what "license"
>  means.

Right, and they haven't provided the source.

>  Has anybody at Mailman asked CPanel, Plesk, or Apple for source and
>  been refused?  Or one of their customers, and been refused because
>  they were under NDA?  If we haven't asked, how can we bitch?

I don't know about CPanel or Plesk, but I'd be willing to bet that 
they would not be willing to provide the source code to their changes 
to anyone, although a knowledgeable person could extract the source 
code differences by comparing what is shipped by the commercial 
vendor against our code, although it might take some work to figure 
out which version of our code they should be comparing against.

I'm pretty sure that I know what the answer would be from Apple.  You 
see, the primary problem is that the Server Group is totally and 
completely unresponsive to their own high-paying Platinum-account 
customers (i.e., major Universities and businesses with thousands or 
tens of thousands of machines), and likewise completely unresponsive 
even to internal people at Apple who are working in other groups.


You'd have to ask Barry as to whether or not he has actually 
contacted these groups to ask them to contribute their code changes 
back to the community, or if anyone has gone to the FSF lawyers to 
have them send a letter requesting that the company in question honor 
their obligations under the GPL.

I just don't have the answers to the questions you're asking me.


Moreover, I don't think that it's reasonable for you to respond to me 
in this manner.  What have I ever done to you?  When have I ever said 
anything that would lead you to believe that I would have the kinds 
of answers you require to these extremely loaded questions you're 
asking?


If you want to get into a diatribe about licensing, please be aware 
that I'm a BSD guy, and I've found myself surrounded by a bunch of 
GPL types, so license-wise I've tended to say pretty quiet.

But if you want to argue the finer points of the GPL with someone, my 
response is going to be that none of this would be a problem if 
they'd just use a BSD-like license instead and then be done with it.

As such, I'm not going to be your foil for your GPL holy war, and if 
you want that then you would be better off looking elsewhere.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 08:47:54 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:47:54 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <p0624050fc11d87de72b1@[10.0.1.210]>

At 1:39 AM -0500 2006-09-01, Brad Knowles wrote:

>  If you want to get into a diatribe about licensing, please be aware that
>  I'm a BSD guy, and I've found myself surrounded by a bunch of GPL types,
>  so license-wise I've tended to say pretty quiet.

Sorry, I meant "... stay pretty quiet".  That was a bad typo to have 
in such a place.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From bretton at hivemind.net  Fri Sep  1 11:36:31 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:36:31 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240508c11d1fba0a8a@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>
	<25DB89FB2DB1CFAAF1AB8959@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>
	<44F72DF3.4060706@hivemind.net>
	<p06240508c11d1fba0a8a@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <44F7FF1F.1080008@hivemind.net>

Brad Knowles said the following on 2006/09/01 01:24 AM:
> This is the key point that was not coming across to me, at least not
> until much later in the exchange.  Speaking only for myself, I seriously
> misunderstood what you were asking and why, which greatly colored my
> responses.

My apologies, I could have been clearer. I did try and fork the thread with
the inclusion of (devils advocate!) in the subject line.

> I'm still not certain that we've given you the best answer to this
> question, but I'm hoping that you'll be able to synthesize something
> that you will then be able to contribute back to the community, and we
> will hopefully be able to avoid these kinds of problems in the future --
> at least with respect to this one particular issue.

I may not have what I was looking specifically, but I do have a clearer of
how to approach things in future.

I've had to edit context significantly for various reasons (brevity being
one) but it comes down this. We've had a solution in place for 10 years that
just works but doesn't offer us the functionality we need or clients want
any more. I've been on mailman run lists for ~6 years and found the setup to
be more useful and when the time came for a new server had to make a number
of decisions based on skills available, difference in volumes of legitimate
mail and spam today (compared to setup of ageing server from 96) and new
things to be learnt using a different OS and architecture.

A mistake appears to be the perception (prior to installation and initial
use phase) that Mailman was Majordomo with a web-gui and archives. It's not.
It's a different product and approach entirely. This realisation is hammered
home in the implementation of Mailman -- but not easily visible when
researching alternative solutions to the previous way we did things.

Such a mistaken perception is echoed both up to management and down to users
in selling the solution. You get approval, go ahead and implement and then
there this "oops" moment and realisation you didn't have all the knowledge
to begin with, and sold management and users a solution you just couldn't
(at the time) anticipate certain problems with. So it's your head on the
block and you either have to wing it or come up with an explanation that
satisfies both users and management without too much trouble in the process.

Just as an example, some list-owners have pending administrative request
queues numbering in the hundreds already. No amount of prodding or pushing
or assisting helps them just to complete a small and easy daily task.
Feedback is "my prior list didn't bother me with stuff" or "Oh, I used to
just ignore that stuff anyway". Horse --> water situation.

Additionally in terms of the historical setup, things with majordomo were
already highly customised to our needs, and when I came in I
assumed/took-for-granted this was the default (old system has even worse
documentation than anything else I've seen <chuckles>) and also assumed
thing would be echoed in the Mailman setup. My mistake, but during the "ask
around for suggestions" phase most of the feedback I got was Mailman
orientated, like the move is just a casual change in clothes. It's not :-)

Now despite my mixed positive/negative reactions to documentation and
feedback from the list, and growing growing appreciation of why certain
things were done a certain way, neither users or management have the time to
sift through the same volume of information to reach a satisfactory
conclusion. Instead you get a very offensive response due to resistance to
change, or new variables.

You see the following doesn't cut it in that situation:

 * but we can change it
 * we can modify the source if we need to
 * that's the way the developers chose to do it
 * the documentation was lacking

In an environment where someone has to take responsibility for a situation,
even if it's not their fault as such, providing the best answer to users or
management can go two ways. Shift the blame, or fix the problem -- even if
it means undoing the best practices suggested and letting users/management
realise for themselves why it's a bad idea. But in some environments you
just can't afford to do this.

So far I've discovered that yes, most of the safe defaults are the best
desired functionality. And that on a Debian/Exim setup it's best to install
from source, and if using virtual domains to install a separate installation
of mailman per domain. The additional overhead on the box isn't that much
for ~20 domains. It might be for more than that though. I've also found the
documentation to be scattered but where there is info that can be
referenced, it's generally pretty good.

Once we have a stable system that meets the needs of users and management
I'll be happy to share the setup of how we've done it in our particular way
along with some rationale behind the different decisions based both on what
I've learnt on this list, and from user/management feedback.

Obviously every installation is in a different environment, and as has been
mentioned Mailman isn't a one-stop-solution-for-all-situations solution.
There is also a lot of public misconception about Mailman in general --
things you only realise when you're actually implementing it on a box or run
into trouble. I doubt anyone is to blame for this -- there are simply too
many variables involved.

I'd suggest to anyone looking at Mailman as a solution search the
docs/FAQ/list-archives, *and* join the list and ask a few questions before
actually implementing. It's a lot easier to anticipate certain things that
way. :-)

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose
of common sense." - Chapman Cohen


From bretton at hivemind.net  Fri Sep  1 11:51:30 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:51:30 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>

Brad Knowles said the following on 2006/09/01 08:39 AM:
> If you want to get into a diatribe about licensing, please be aware 
> that I'm a BSD guy, and I've found myself surrounded by a bunch of 
> GPL types, so license-wise I've tended to say pretty quiet.

Note, the issues raised are not unique to Mailman or other popular GPL
products. There is an undercurrent of concern over how Ubuntu is building on
Dedian but not necessarily contributing back, and developer dissatisfaction
at the Debian level moving to the more trendy and dynamic Ubuntu front.

The GPL approach has obviously been useful (and popular) but I find many
'just solve the problem' type individuals seem to favour the BSD approach.
Kind of "you're welcome to use and modify, just don't blame us for any
consequences", whereas with the GPL it's more about a zealous popular
uprising against corporate overlords.

I don't think there is any obligation for someone who changes the source of
a GPL product to give the changes back to the original developers, but there
might be a case of 'good manners' at play in that it is polite to do so. I'm
sure developers welcome input even if they choose not to include it in the
primary code distribution.

One can however approach someone who has modified the source and request the
modified source but there may be trouble getting a diff version of the
modifications made and reasons why.

However it's probably a case of motivation. Developers would need to be
motivated to chase one of the organisations mentioned and it would be
time-consuming and require effort when they might prefer to be coding.
Obviously a gap here for a champion from within the user base to pursue the
matter further.

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"To teach a man how he may learn to grow independently, and for himself, is
perhaps the greatest service that one man can do another." - Benjamin Jowett


From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 13:40:49 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:40:49 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [exim] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <E1GJ694-0005Ka-9R@scyw00225.scy001.de>
References: <200609010022.35450.k.oliver@t-online.de>
	<E1GJ694-0005Ka-9R@scyw00225.scy001.de>
Message-ID: <200609011340.50213.k.oliver@t-online.de>

On Friday 01 September 2006 12:21, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:22:35 +0200, Oliver K?nig <k.oliver at t-online.de>
>
> wrote:
> >/var/log/exim4/mainlog:
> >2006-09-01 00:00:52 H=mailout01.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.80]
> >F=<k.oliver at t-online.de> rejected RCPT <news at server.windfinder.com>: relay
> >not permitted
>
> if mailout01.sul.t-online.com is your smarthost, then that box doesn't
> like to relay for you. Please note that T-Online has a rather severe
> daily mail volume limit and thus you won't have much fun with running
> a mailing list server via the T-Online mail servers.
>
> Additional to that, please make sure to read the documentation that
> came with your Debian package. May I ask how you managed to miss the
> pointers to the Debian specific mailing list and where you found the
> pointer to exim-users?
>
> Greetings
> Marc
Sorry, I forgot to say that I actually read /usr/share/doc/mailman/README.EXIM 
and changed my config. Still could not fix the problem:

This is my actual configuration:
/etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py:
[..]
# Default domain for email addresses of newly created MLs
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'server.windfinder.com'
[..]
------
/etc/exim4/exim4.conf.template (accepted after exim4 restart):
# Home dir for your Mailman installation -- aka Mailman's prefix
# directory.
MAILMAN_HOME=/var/lib/mailman
MAILMAN_WRAP=MAILMAN_HOME/mail/mailman

# User and group for Mailman, should match your --with-mail-gid
# switch to Mailman's configure script.
MAILMAN_USER=list
MAILMAN_GROUP=daemon

[..]
begin routers

mailman_router:
  driver = accept
  require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
  local_part_suffix_optional
  local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
                      -confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
                      -owner : -request : -admin
  transport = mailman_transport

[..]
begin transports

mailman_transport:
  driver = pipe
  command = MAILMAN_WRAP \
            '${if def:local_part_suffix \
                  {${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
                  {post}}' \
            $local_part
  current_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  home_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  user = MAILMAN_USER
  group = MAILMAN_GROUP
[..]
-----

When a subscriber posts to the list /var/log/exim4/mainlog says:
2006-09-01 13:37:27 H=mailout09.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.84] 
F=<k.oliver at t-online.de> rejected RCPT <news at server.windfinder.com>: relay 
not permitted

Any idea how to allow postings from subscribers? Thanks.

Oliver


From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 14:09:47 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:09:47 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

stephen at xemacs.org wrote:
> Has anybody at Mailman asked CPanel, Plesk, or Apple for source and
> been refused?  Or one of their customers, and been refused because
> they were under NDA?  If we haven't asked, how can we bitch?

I asked cPanel a few years ago.  I got the run-around and they closed
the support ticket 2 or 3 times without providing any source or diffs.
Only after persisting did they send me a link to a half-assed diff
that I know didn't match all that they changed.

I've since had the displeasure of working on a cPanel hosted system
and there is a source directory for mailman.  If anyone's really
curious, I'll diff it against whatever the official source release
they're claiming it is.

They may be honoring the letter of the license, but they deserve the
shit they get here for abusing the spirit of it so badly.  If I made
changes to Mailman that caused a regular stream of frequently asked
questions I'd fix the problems or get involved in helping answer them
just so I could sleep at night.  cPanel doesn't do that and they are
charging folks good money to package up free software.  That leaves a
bad taste in *my* mouth, and I'm not even a significant contributor to
Mailman.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
The more laws, the less justice.
    -- Marcus Tullius Cicero "De Officiis", 44 B.C.

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From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 14:22:33 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:22:33 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006083116012505783de67c9b@msapiro>
References: <PC17602006083116012505783de67c9b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <200609011422.33607.k.oliver@t-online.de>

Hello Marc,
thanks for your feedback. I have been trying to get it working for several 
weeks.

On Friday 01 September 2006 01:01, you wrote:
> Oliver K?nig wrote:
> >I am pretty sure that the mailman config is right and that
> >there is a problem with the exim4 config. Non local subscribers cannot
> > post to the list. The Exim4 log always says that relay is not permitted.
>
> Yes, that would be an Exim config problem.
>
> >Here are parts of my exim4 config:
>
> <snip>
>
> ># Domains that your lists are in - colon separated list
> ># you may wish to add these into local_domains as well
> >domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS=news.server.windfinder.com
>
> And what about server.windfinder.com? And did you add it to
> local_domains?
Just added it:
domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS= server.windfinder.com : news.server.windfinder.com

After exim4 restart the mail delivery failed completely (even for non mailman 
mail):

/var/log/exim4/mainlog
2006-09-01 10:39:13 1GJ4YH-0004nB-ND <= user at server.windfinder.com U=user 
P=local S=11314
2006-09-01 10:39:13 1GJ4YH-0004nB-ND unknown named domain 
list "+MAILMAN_domains"
2006-09-01 10:39:26 socket bind() to port 25 for address (any IPv4) failed: 
Address already in use: waiting before trying again
2006-09-01 10:39:49 1GJ4Z3-0004pq-Mi <= oliver at windfinder.com 
H=p548de4f5.dip.t-dialin.net ([192.168.0.2]) [84.141.228.245] P=esmtpsa 
X=TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32 A=plain_courier_authdaemon:oliver S=1609 
id=200609011039.15788.oliver at windfinder.com
2006-09-01 10:39:49 1GJ4Z3-0004pq-Mi unknown named domain 
list "+MAILMAN_domains"
2006-09-01 10:39:56 socket bind() to port 25 for address (any IPv4) failed: 
Address already in use: waiting before trying again
2006-09-01 10:40:01 1GJ4ZF-0004wl-Sf <= user at server.windfinder.com U=user 
P=local S=752
2006-09-01 10:40:01 1GJ4ZF-0004wl-Sf unknown named domain 
list "+MAILMAN_domains"
2006-09-01 10:40:02 1GJ4ZG-0004wv-6z <= user at server.windfinder.com U=user 
P=local S=737
2006-09-01 10:40:02 1GJ4ZG-0004wv-6z unknown named domain 
list "+MAILMAN_domains"


> <snip>
>
> >mailman_router:
> >driver = accept
> >require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
> >local_part_suffix_optional
> >local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
> >-confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
> >-owner : -request : -admin
> >transport = mailman_transport
>
> The above is incomplete. It is not the cause of your problem, but see
> <http://www.exim.org/howto/mailman21.html#roconf> for what the
> mailman_router: should be. In particular, the above is missing
> -confirm, -subscribe and -unsubscribe in local_part_suffix and is
> missing
> domains = +MAILMAN_DOMAINS to prevent mail to an address that looks
> like a list but in another domain from being delivered to the list.

I changed this according tohttp://www.exim.org/howto/mailman21.html to:
[..]
begin routers

mailman_router:
   driver = accept
   domains = +MAILMAN_domains
   require_files = MAILMAN_LISTCHK
   local_part_suffix_optional
   local_part_suffix = -admin     : \
-bounces   : -bounces+* : \
                       -confirm   : -confirm+* : \
-join      : -leave     : \
-owner    : -request   : \
-subscribe : -unsubscribe
   transport = mailman_transport
[..]
begin transports

mailman_transport:
  driver = pipe
  command = MAILMAN_WRAP \
            '${if def:local_part_suffix \
                  {${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
                  {post}}' \
            $local_part
  current_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  home_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  user = MAILMAN_USER
  group = MAILMAN_GROUP



From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 14:30:31 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 21:30:31 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <17656.10215.46422.826213@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brad Knowles writes:

 > I just don't have the answers to the questions you're asking me.

That's fine.

 > Moreover, I don't think that it's reasonable for you to respond to me 
 > in this manner.  What have I ever done to you?

Since you ask, lots of nice things.  I've certainly benefited from
your contributions to these lists and the FAQ.  Thank you!

I'm not sure what you mean by "manner", but the reason I responded is
that I got triggered by the juxtaposition of "us vs. them" language
with "GPL".  I agree that there's a justification for a feeling of "us
vs. them" between Mailman and the companies mentioned, but in my
experience the GPL normally contributes to such antagonism, and I've
never seen the GPL help alleviate it.  So I want the GPL out of the
discussion (unless the companies are in violation of their license,
which seems possible---that's why I asked for evidence).

 > When have I ever said anything that would lead you to believe that
 > I would have the kinds of answers you require

Aren't you the guy who was there when the Postel Principle was coined?
<wink>  You're right, I should ask Barry, but Barry's not here right
now that I can see, and you usually do have answers, good answers.

 > to these extremely loaded questions you're asking?

What's loaded about the questions?  True, my phrasing assumed that you
probably knew the answers to the questions, but I didn't mean to imply
any obligation for you to know them.

Your post asks for more than the GPL does.  I agree that it would be
good if these companies would participate actively in the community.
But I'm more confused than ever why you cited the GPL in support of
that, since you write:

 > But if you want to argue the finer points of the GPL with someone, my 
 > response is going to be that none of this would be a problem if 
 > they'd just use a BSD-like license instead and then be done with
 > it.

 > As such, I'm not going to be your foil for your GPL holy war, and if 
 > you want that then you would be better off looking elsewhere.

All I want w.r.t. the GPL is that downstream do what it explicitly
demands, since that is the license Mailman uses.

And maybe Mailman should consider asking for source code from these
companies, to improve support for not a few users.

Steve




From franc at ncsi.iisc.ernet.in  Fri Sep  1 15:24:50 2006
From: franc at ncsi.iisc.ernet.in (Francis Jayakanth)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:54:50 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] peculiar problem
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>


We have been using Mailman software for almost 6 years now without much of
a problem. Occasionally, some of our subscribers complain that they do not
receive mails from the mailman list. What I have been doing as a list
moderator in such situations is, deleting the existing id of such a user
and re-create the same id. Many-a-times this solution has worked. However,
it doesn't work for particular user. I have re-created the id for this
user at least 5 times but still the user in question doesn't get mailman
mails.  what do u think could be the problem. we are using 2.1.3, which
quite out-dated as compared to the latest version, 2.1.8 I will be
upgrading the version shortly.

Many thanks,

 - Francis



From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 14:58:41 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 21:58:41 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicit	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Todd Zullinger writes:

 > stephen at xemacs.org wrote:
 > > Has anybody at Mailman asked CPanel, Plesk, or Apple for source and
 > > been refused?  Or one of their customers, and been refused because
 > > they were under NDA?  If we haven't asked, how can we bitch?

 > [...]
 > I've since had the displeasure of working on a cPanel hosted system
 > and there is a source directory for mailman.  If anyone's really
 > curious, I'll diff it against whatever the official source release
 > they're claiming it is.

If you actually do have the right to do so, yes, please.  If nobody
else wants it, feel free to send it to me personally, and I'll stick
it up on a website and post an URL in the FAQ.  It ought to be
available for the benefit of cPanel users who might be able to use it,
even if we're not going to use any of it in Mailman itself.

 > They may be honoring the letter of the license,

And then again, they may not be.  Checking the source will help to
figure that out.

Cheers,
Steve



From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 14:52:32 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:52:32 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [exim] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <20060901115140.GA25158@www.lobefin.net>
References: <200609010022.35450.k.oliver@t-online.de>
	<200609011340.50213.k.oliver@t-online.de>
	<20060901115140.GA25158@www.lobefin.net>
Message-ID: <200609011452.32855.k.oliver@t-online.de>

On Friday 01 September 2006 13:51, Stephen Gran wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 01:40:49PM +0200, Oliver K?nig said:
> > When a subscriber posts to the list /var/log/exim4/mainlog says:
> > 2006-09-01 13:37:27 H=mailout09.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.84]
> > F=<k.oliver at t-online.de> rejected RCPT <news at server.windfinder.com>:
> > relay not permitted
> >
> > Any idea how to allow postings from subscribers? Thanks.
>
> It sounds to me like you don't have +MAILMAN_DOMAINS in any accept
> statements in your rcpt acl.  I would just add it to one of the verify =
> recipient stanzas towards the end of the rcpt acl (given a stock
> configuration).

Hello Stephen,
thanks for for reply. I added +MAILMAN_DOMAINS whereever I thought it might 
help. I am still getting the same error: relay not permitted. Here are 
excerpts from my exim config:
[..]
.ifndef MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS
MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS = DEBCONFlocal_domainsDEBCONF
.endif
domainlist local_domains = MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS : MAILMAN_DOMAINS : 
server.windfinder.com

.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS
MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS = DEBCONFrelay_domainsDEBCONF
.endif
domainlist relay_to_domains = MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS

.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_NETS
MAIN_RELAY_NETS = DEBCONFrelay_netsDEBCONF
.endif
hostlist relay_from_hosts = 127.0.0.1 : ::::1 : MAIN_RELAY_NETS
[..]
# Home dir for your Mailman installation -- aka Mailman's prefix
# directory, see: /usr/share/doc/mailman/README.exim.
MAILMAN_HOME=/var/lib/mailman
MAILMAN_WRAP=MAILMAN_HOME/mail/mailman

# User and group for Mailman, should match your --with-mail-gid
# switch to Mailman's configure script.
MAILMAN_USER=list
MAILMAN_GROUP=daemon

# Domains that your lists are in - colon separated list
# you may wish to add these into local_domains as well
domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS= server.windfinder.com
#
# -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
#
# These values are derived from the ones above and should not need
# editing unless you have munged your mailman installation
#
# The path of the list config file (used as a required file when
# verifying list addresses)
MAILMAN_LISTCHK=MAILMAN_HOME/lists/${lc::$local_part}/config.pck

[..]
begin routers

mailman_router:
  driver = accept
  require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
  local_part_suffix_optional
  local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
                      -confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
                      -owner : -request : -admin
  domains = server.windfinder.com : MAILMAN_DOMAINS
  transport = mailman_transport

[..]
  # Accept if the address is in a local domain, but only if the recipient can
  # be verified. Otherwise deny. The "endpass" line is the border between
  # passing on to the next ACL statement (if tests above it fail) or denying
  # access (if tests below it fail).
  #
  accept
    domains = +local_domains : +MAILMAN_DOMAINS
    endpass
    message = unknown user
    verify = recipient


  # Accept if the address is in a domain for which we are relaying, but again,
  # only if the recipient can be verified.
  #
  # If you want to use the more conservative "unknown user" error
  # message in case of a non-existing local part, you might want to
  # set CHECK_RCPT_GIVE_UNKNOWN_USER. However, this might reveal
  # local information, which is the cause for it not being enabled by
  # default.
  accept
    domains = +relay_to_domains : +MAILMAN_DOMAINS
    endpass
    .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_GIVE_UNKNOWN_USER
    message = ${if eq{$acl_verify_message}{Unrouteable address}{unknown user}
{$acl_verify_message}}
    .else
    message = unrouteable address
    .endif
    verify = recipient

[..]
begin transports

mailman_transport:
  driver = pipe
  command = MAILMAN_WRAP \
            '${if def:local_part_suffix \
                  {${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
                  {post}}' \
            $local_part
  current_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  home_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  user = MAILMAN_USER
  group = MAILMAN_GROUP

Regards,
Oliver


From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 16:00:08 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:00:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

stephen at xemacs.org wrote:
> If you actually do have the right to do so, yes, please.

I do, AFAIK.  Mailman is GPL'd and I have legitimate root access on
that system so I have access to the source code.  AIUI, the GPL
doesn't permit them to restrict what I do with the source that I get.
So it's tough titties for cPanel if they don't like me sharing it with
the rest of the world. :)

The diff is rather large and messy.  The source dir on cpanel seems to
include a build dir with the mailman bin/ utils in it along with some
of the stuff from contrib and cron.  There are also various remnants
of the build process (config.status, Makefiles, etc) strewn about --
perhaps to discourage anyone from using the source easily. :)

In the interests of completeness, I've not excluded any of that from
the diff, so it's rather large (~ 7MB unzipped)!  This source came
from /usr/local/cpanel/src/3rdparty/gpl/mailman-2.1.7 on a cpanel
system.

The diff:

    http://pobox.com/~tmz/mailman-2.1.7-cpanel.diff.bz2 (1.7MB)

Let me know if you want any other info from the cpanel system and I'll
do my best to get it for you.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
The only reason we still have elections in this country is to see if
the pollsters were right.
    -- Ed Rollins

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From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 16:14:37 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:14:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] peculiar problem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609010714t1c5ac7b0q24026401fa6c2dd4@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Francis Jayakanth <franc at ncsi.iisc.ernet.in> wrote:
>
> We have been using Mailman software for almost 6 years now without much of
> a problem. Occasionally, some of our subscribers complain that they do not
> receive mails from the mailman list. What I have been doing as a list

My guess here would be that it's bounce processing. You can check
mailman's 'bounce' logs to see if this is, in fact, the case.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From maltokyo at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 16:21:53 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:21:53 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, I am running mailman / postfix on Ubuntu 6.06 (using apt-get
latest standard versions)

I have everything working correctly, except that when people send
mails to the list, it takes on average one hour to send the mails out
to subscribers!!

The volume is only small now, as we are testing with only three people..

I have searched this list, but can not find an answer for slow
delivery times on systems where mail volume is very low.

If you have a clue what I could be missing, I would LOVE to get your advice.

Thank you
Mal


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 16:24:42 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:24:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello, I am running mailman / postfix on Ubuntu 6.06 (using apt-get
> latest standard versions)
What MTA are you using?

> I have everything working correctly, except that when people send
> mails to the list, it takes on average one hour to send the mails out
> to subscribers!!
Is the slowdown in Mailman, or in your MTA? (Check your MTA's queues
when you send, see if the messages are stuck there. Check Mailman's
qfiles/out folder to see if they're stuck there. Check the 'post' and
'smtp' logs to see how big the actual delay is, for Mailman.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From heinrich at esono.de  Fri Sep  1 16:53:19 2006
From: heinrich at esono.de (Heinrich, Maximilian)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:53:19 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need help: Failure_to_exec_script._WANTED_gid_12,
	_GOT_gid_110
Message-ID: <D54C98F43BF2CC4EB000C3B2DEBC47880112CFED@mapibe12.exchange.xchg>

Hello again,

thanks for your help so far with the strange
unable-to-determine-caller's-group-id-thing. In fact I found out that
the problem was that the either qmail or mailman expected the GID of
user "popuser" to be 110. (it was 30). So I changed that by changing the
GID in /etc/group and /etc/passwd to 110 and by performing this

find / -gid 30 -print -exec chgrp 110 {} \; >gid30to110.log

so far so good. NOW I get at least no "deferral" but "success" delivery
message in my qmail log but with this error behind it:

delivery 890: success:
Failure_to_exec_script._WANTED_gid_12,_GOT_gid_110./Failed_to_start_/usr
/lib/mailman/mail/mailman./did_0+0+1/

:'-( (gid 12 == mail)

Since using a combination of Suse9.3, PLESK and a (obviously?) special
distribution of mailmnan that comes with this combination I'm not able
to compile this with those funky parameters like -with-mail-gid=12 or
something. 

What can I do? Thanks in advance - Regards Maxi


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 16:52:46 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:52:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] peculiar problem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>
Message-ID: <p06240511c11df94e08e0@[10.0.1.210]>

At 6:54 PM +0530 2006-09-01, Francis Jayakanth wrote:

>                                      I have re-created the id for this
>  user at least 5 times but still the user in question doesn't get mailman
>  mails.  what do u think could be the problem. we are using 2.1.3, which
>  quite out-dated as compared to the latest version, 2.1.8 I will be
>  upgrading the version shortly.

What's in the Mailman logs?  What's in the MTA logs?  Can you get the 
MTA logs from the other side, and then compare that to your MTA logs?

We've got some instructions in the FAQ that should help you track 
down e-mail delivery problems.  Have you searched the FAQ for 
"troubleshooting"?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From maltokyo at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 17:01:36 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:01:36 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Patrick,
Thank you very much for your reply.

> What MTA are you using?
Postfix latest version.

Checking the logs that you suggested, I found the cause for this
delay, however, do not know how to get around it...

When I am sending mails to the list from any other smtp server than my
isp's (from webmail etc), the delivery is instant!
However, when I send a mail from my isp's smtp server (which is the
same smtp that postfix is using to send all mails that are posted to
my list), then delivery takes about 1 hour!!

Does anyone know why that could be?  Is it confusing my isp's smtp server???

Thank you for your help.
Mal



On 01/09/06, Patrick Bogen <pdbogen at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/1/06, Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello, I am running mailman / postfix on Ubuntu 6.06 (using apt-get
> > latest standard versions)
> What MTA are you using?
>
> > I have everything working correctly, except that when people send
> > mails to the list, it takes on average one hour to send the mails out
> > to subscribers!!
> Is the slowdown in Mailman, or in your MTA? (Check your MTA's queues
> when you send, see if the messages are stuck there. Check Mailman's
> qfiles/out folder to see if they're stuck there. Check the 'post' and
> 'smtp' logs to see how big the actual delay is, for Mailman.
>
> --
> - Patrick Bogen
>


From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Fri Sep  1 17:04:11 2006
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:04:11 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>

* Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com>:

> When I am sending mails to the list from any other smtp server than my
> isp's (from webmail etc), the delivery is instant!
> However, when I send a mail from my isp's smtp server (which is the
> same smtp that postfix is using to send all mails that are posted to
> my list), then delivery takes about 1 hour!!

You ISPs mailserver could have a huge queue, thus delivery may take
VERY long.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt (i.A. des IT-Zentrums)         Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de
Charite - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin            Tel.  +49 (0)30-450 570-155
Gemeinsame Einrichtung von FU- und HU-Berlin    Fax.  +49 (0)30-450 570-962
IT-Zentrum Standort CBF                 send no mail to spamtrap at charite.de


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 17:03:43 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:03:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17656.10215.46422.826213@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17656.10215.46422.826213@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <p06240512c11dfb6f8890@[10.0.1.210]>

At 9:30 PM +0900 2006-09-01, <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

>  Your post asks for more than the GPL does.  I agree that it would be
>  good if these companies would participate actively in the community.
>  But I'm more confused than ever why you cited the GPL in support of
>  that, since you write:

I'm not really citing the GPL, at least not per se.  I know what the 
GPL actually requires, but as far as I'm concerned any changes that 
are made without being approved by Barry or filtered back into the 
community would qualify as "unapproved".

>  All I want w.r.t. the GPL is that downstream do what it explicitly
>  demands, since that is the license Mailman uses.

If they were willing to do that, I'd be reasonably happy.

>  And maybe Mailman should consider asking for source code from these
>  companies, to improve support for not a few users.

That's a good idea, but that's another issue for Barry.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From maltokyo at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 17:07:58 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:07:58 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Ralf,

> You ISPs mailserver could have a huge queue, thus delivery may take
> VERY long.

thanks for the hint, but other mails are getting in with no delay at all..
Anyone else tried to send mails from same smtp server that your MTA uses?



On 02/09/06, Ralf Hildebrandt <Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> wrote:
> * Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com>:
>
> > When I am sending mails to the list from any other smtp server than my
> > isp's (from webmail etc), the delivery is instant!
> > However, when I send a mail from my isp's smtp server (which is the
> > same smtp that postfix is using to send all mails that are posted to
> > my list), then delivery takes about 1 hour!!
>
> You ISPs mailserver could have a huge queue, thus delivery may take
> VERY long.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 17:09:53 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:09:53 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
 but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
Message-ID: <p06240514c11dfd05e7a1@[10.0.1.210]>

At 5:04 PM +0200 2006-09-01, Ralf Hildebrandt quoted maltokyo at gmail.com:

>>  When I am sending mails to the list from any other smtp server than my
>>  isp's (from webmail etc), the delivery is instant!
>>  However, when I send a mail from my isp's smtp server (which is the
>>  same smtp that postfix is using to send all mails that are posted to
>>  my list), then delivery takes about 1 hour!!
>
>  You ISPs mailserver could have a huge queue, thus delivery may take
>  VERY long.

I would hope that the situation is that simple.

The other problem is that the ISP might be incompetent, and the 
queues are relatively small but very poorly managed, and the result 
is that the messages are delayed a long time -- but for no good 
reason.


Either way, it sounds like you need to talk to your ISP about this 
problem, because they're the only ones that are going to be able to 
help you.  The only other alternative is to find a different provider.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 17:11:17 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:11:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <200609011422.33607.k.oliver@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <PC17602006090108111709211beb062a@msapiro>

Oliver K?nig wrote:

>Just added it:
>domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS= server.windfinder.com : news.server.windfinder.com
>
>After exim4 restart the mail delivery failed completely (even for non mailman
>mail):
<snip>
>2006-09-01 10:39:13 1GJ4YH-0004nB-ND unknown named domain
>list "+MAILMAN_domains"
<snip>
>I changed this according tohttp://www.exim.org/howto/mailman21.html to:
>[..]
>begin routers
>
>mailman_router:
>   driver = accept
>   domains = +MAILMAN_domains
>   require_files = MAILMAN_LISTCHK
>   local_part_suffix_optional
>   local_part_suffix = -admin     : \
>-bounces   : -bounces+* : \
>                       -confirm   : -confirm+* : \
>-join      : -leave     : \
>-owner    : -request   : \
>-subscribe : -unsubscribe
>   transport = mailman_transport

You seem to have case issues here, i.e., MAILMAN_DOMAINS vs.
MAILMAN_domains. The documentation shows this all lower case. I don't
know if that is significant or not, but it may be.

Also, you don't indicate whether or not you have server.windfinder.com
and news.server.windfinder.com in local_domains. If not, I think this
is the cause of your relaying problem.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 17:12:35 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:12:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
	<aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609010812l56bece90y2ed418516050c211@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com> wrote:
> thanks for the hint, but other mails are getting in with no delay at all..
> Anyone else tried to send mails from same smtp server that your MTA uses?

If your ISP allows it, you might try configuring your postfix to NOT
use the ISP as a smart relay, and just attempt to deliver mail
locally.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 17:15:02 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:15:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
 but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
	<aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240515c11dfdfd21ce@[10.0.1.210]>

At 12:07 AM +0900 2006-09-02, Mal quoted Ralf Hildebrandt:

>>  You ISPs mailserver could have a huge queue, thus delivery may take
>>  VERY long.
>
>  thanks for the hint, but other mails are getting in with no delay at all.

That's the joy of e-mail -- messages you sent an hour ago might still 
be in the queue, while messages that you send now may go through 
immediately, even if they are to the exact same destination.

There are a lot of factors involved, and the only people who can 
really help you answer the question of what is wrong and how it might 
be fixed are the people who administer that system -- your ISP.

>  Anyone else tried to send mails from same smtp server that your MTA uses?

If you're using a webmail system from your ISP, you don't have any 
control over the MTA that is used by the webmail system.


Everything boils down to the fact that you need to talk to your ISP 
and see what's going on and why, and what might be done about it.

We might be able to speculate and suggest potential alternatives 
based on the speculations, but that's about as far as anyone here can 
go.

You need real answers, and the only person (or people) who can 
possibly provide those answers is/are at your ISP.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 17:28:27 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:28:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicit	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <17656.20891.795544.237969@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Todd Zullinger writes:

 > I do, AFAIK.  Mailman is GPL'd and I have legitimate root access on
 > that system so I have access to the source code.  AIUI, the GPL
 > doesn't permit them to restrict what I do with the source that I
 > get.

You have to actually receive a distribution to have GPL rights.
Merely having access to somebody else's copy is not enough.  The
system owner can indeed tell you what uses you are and are not
allowed, just as a cashier has legitimate access to the contents of
the cash register, but isn't allowed to just share out the change to
anybody who comes along.



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 17:23:12 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:23:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] peculiar problem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010823120093566fed09@msapiro>

Francis Jayakanth wrote:
>
>What I have been doing as a list
>moderator in such situations is, deleting the existing id of such a user
>and re-create the same id. Many-a-times this solution has worked. 


I don't know why this would make a difference unless delivery was
disabled for that user and deleting and recreating had the effect of
enabling delivery.


>However,
>it doesn't work for particular user. I have re-created the id for this
>user at least 5 times but still the user in question doesn't get mailman
>mails.  what do u think could be the problem.


The user or her/his ISP could be filtering or blocking the mail from
your mailman installation based on any number of factors. Can you
successfully send non-Mailman mail to this user from the same domain
as Mailman sends from?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From maltokyo at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 17:26:01 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:26:01 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <p06240515c11dfdfd21ce@10.0.1.210>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
	<aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240515c11dfdfd21ce@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609010826y45698dbxac7104c5815c19dd@mail.gmail.com>

OK!  Thank you, Ill ask the isp.  Thanks for the suggestions at the
start, it really helped me pinpoint the problem, even though it doesnt
seem to be mailman!


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Sep  1 17:29:39 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 08:29:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] GPL Issues (was Re: query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!))
In-Reply-To: <44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
	<44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>

Bretton Vine did speak thusly:

>I don't think there is any obligation for someone who changes the source of
>a GPL product to give the changes back to the original developers, but there
>might be a case of 'good manners' at play in that it is polite to do so. I'm
>sure developers welcome input even if they choose not to include it in the
>primary code distribution.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Disclaimer: I am not a licensed attorney and this is not to be 
construed as legal advice.

Have you actually read the GPL?

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt

There is such an obligation explicitly defined in it within section 3 
that states that source code of any derivative work MUST be provided 
either as part of the actual distribution of the work or upon request 
to ANY third party that requests it. Section 2 also plays heavily 
into this situation.

Thus by either passively ignoring or actively refusing requests for 
source, Apple, Plesk and CPanel are in direct violation of the GPL.

And while we are on the subject of the GPL, sections 11 and 12 
basically state that there is absolutely no warranty for the fitness 
or suitability of a GPL program and that your use of a program under 
the license is entirely at your own risk.



Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 17:35:01 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:35:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17656.20891.795544.237969@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.20891.795544.237969@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20060901153501.GK4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

stephen at xemacs.org wrote:
> You have to actually receive a distribution to have GPL rights.
> Merely having access to somebody else's copy is not enough.

The system owner most certainly allows me to access and use the source
that he was provided as part of the cPanel installation.  If you have
reason to believe that there are other factors which would prohibit
the system owner from sharing that source code, feel free to point
those out.  But of course, I've already posted the diff and don't plan
to retract it. ;)

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a
virtue.  Fleas are interested in dogs.
    -- P.J. O'Rourke

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From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Sep  1 17:40:19 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 08:40:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
 but very slow delivery of  posted mails
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901083647.0125c508@crimson-dragon.com>

Mal did speak thusly:
>Dear Patrick,
>Thank you very much for your reply.
>
> > What MTA are you using?
>Postfix latest version.
>
>Checking the logs that you suggested, I found the cause for this
>delay, however, do not know how to get around it...
>
>When I am sending mails to the list from any other smtp server than my
>isp's (from webmail etc), the delivery is instant!
>However, when I send a mail from my isp's smtp server (which is the
>same smtp that postfix is using to send all mails that are posted to
>my list), then delivery takes about 1 hour!!
>
>Does anyone know why that could be?  Is it confusing my isp's smtp server???
>
>Thank you for your help.
>Mal
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Sounds like they have implemented greylisting as an anti-spam measure 
and have set the retry period to an hour.

Do you see anything in your MTA logs that looks something like this?

reject=451 4.7.1 Greylisting in action, please come back in 00:10:00


If so, you need to get with their sysadmin and have them whitelist 
your mailman server.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 17:42:17 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:42:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicitdestination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240512c11dfb6f8890@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <PC17602006090108421702810f4ab56a@msapiro>

Brad Knowles wrote:

>At 9:30 PM +0900 2006-09-01, <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
>
>>  And maybe Mailman should consider asking for source code from these
>>  companies, to improve support for not a few users.
>
>That's a good idea, but that's another issue for Barry.


FWIW, I only this week discovered that Apple has Mailman source code on
it's web site.

I found the following quote somewhat ironic -

  Apple uses software created by the Open Source community, such as the
  HTML rendering engine for Safari, and returns its enhancements to the
  community.

(<http://www.apple.com/opensource/>)

Anyway, if you go to <http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/>
and follow any of the "Mac OS X 10.3  Darwin 7.0" or later "source"
links you will find links to Mailman source. I don't know whether this
is Apple modified source or just our source. I haven't had time to
investigate this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From R.Bannocks at nhm.ac.uk  Fri Sep  1 17:27:31 2006
From: R.Bannocks at nhm.ac.uk (Robert Bannocks)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:27:31 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting up mailman
Message-ID: <82A8FC2BA38D7F46998355F69C861BAFBFDA87@FRANK.nhm.ac.uk>

Hi,  
 
A few simple questions.
 
I want to run mail man as part of the main name space, i.e.
listnames at nhm.ac.uk, however the machine it runs on will be called
someother.nhm.ac.uk, and 
the alias I want for the web front end will be lists.nhm.ac.uk.  Am I
correct in doing this by setting the following variables in
~mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py
 
and that this will acheive the following
 
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'nhm.ac.uk'
DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.nhm.ac.uk'
DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'
VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()

 
1.  When users go to http://lists.nhm.ac.uk, they will be able to view
the lists
2.  mail from the lists will come from listname at nhm.ac.uk
 
Thanks 
 
RB
 
 
 


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 17:51:36 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:51:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicitdestination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <44F7FF1F.1080008@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010851360468c2517f58@msapiro>

Bretton Vine wrote:
>
>Just as an example, some list-owners have pending administrative request
>queues numbering in the hundreds already. No amount of prodding or pushing
>or assisting helps them just to complete a small and easy daily task.
>Feedback is "my prior list didn't bother me with stuff" or "Oh, I used to
>just ignore that stuff anyway". Horse --> water situation.


FYI, in case you missed it, beginning with 2.1.6 there is a
max_days_to_hold list setting and the corresponding
DEFAULT_MAX_DAYS_TO_HOLD mm_cfg.py setting.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 17:52:17 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:52:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20608292119l4adeb132y77ad1f534e5c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34a783b20608292119l4adeb132y77ad1f534e5c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609010852o1c3380e2m9bda285eeccb452@mail.gmail.com>

Answering my own question, on the off-chance somebody else now or in
the future cares...

On 8/29/06, David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:

> What I think I want to do is leave the new/current mailing list, and
> its archives, alone, and put up the old archives in my web space.  (A
> more aggressive approach would be to try to attach my old archives to
> the beginning of the new/current archive, so everything would be in
> one place.  That would require a lot of reliance on Dreamhost tech
> support, since I don't have access to those files/directories, and
> they might not even be willing to do it.)
>
> So, what executables and configuration settings are key to this?  I
> need to run "arch", it looks like, and have a mailing list configured
> that will define where it puts the resulting HTML files.  Maybe also
> stuff to make the page templates match the rest of the website (I did
> that for the ezmlm-cgi version).   And I only have to do this once
> (just to convert the old archives, static, no more messages).

I've made significant progress on this.  I built a private copy of
mailman, to run under my username (never to actually be connected to
incoming email; just so that I can create and configure lists and run
arch on them).

The configure command I used was:

./configure --with-username=ddb --with-groupname=ddb --prefix=/home/ddb/mailman

I can create a list with bin/newlist, and I can then run bin/arch and
import mbox list archives, and it builds web pages that serve up just
fine.

I believe I need to do more to configure the list, so that for example
the list name appears somewhere on the archive pages.  I'm not yet
sure if I should do this via command line tools, or if I need to hook
it up so the list admin web pages work on this private copy of
mailman.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 17:55:16 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:55:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature request
Message-ID: <34a783b20609010855l11d12489w5838f3b2da8091a1@mail.gmail.com>

It'd sure be nice if there were a CSS file associated with the web
archives that mailman generates.  Perhaps, ideally, a different one
for the individual message files and for the various index files.
Perhaps there could be a default one that was put in by default (it
could be pretty much null), and then each list could be configured to
use a specific other one if the list owner wanted.  This gives a LOT
of flexibility to spruce up (and make conform to site style) the
appearance of the archives, for very little (it seems to me) work by
the Mailman developers.

The other thing is that the various sections of the messages would
need to be tagged in appropriate ways to make the style sheets more
able to access individual bits.

How do people go about fitting the archives into their site style now?  Frames?
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 17:59:22 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:59:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicitdestination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010859220765c516ae73@msapiro>

Todd Zullinger wrote:
>
>The source dir on cpanel seems to
>include a build dir with the mailman bin/ utils in it along with some
>of the stuff from contrib and cron.

The build directory is created by configure and contains 'configured'
versions of the scripts.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 18:07:46 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 01:07:46 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicit	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <20060901153501.GK4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.20891.795544.237969@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901153501.GK4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <17656.23250.67763.76038@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Todd Zullinger writes:

 > If you have reason to believe that there are other factors which
 > would prohibit the system owner from sharing that source code,
 > feel free to point those out.

There are none to worry about, except that he/she arbitrarily decides
he/she doesn't want to.

I'm just concerned that sharing might not be the intention of the
system owner.



From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 18:11:13 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:11:13 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17656.23250.67763.76038@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.20891.795544.237969@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901153501.GK4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.23250.67763.76038@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20060901161113.GM4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

stephen at xemacs.org wrote:
> I'm just concerned that sharing might not be the intention of the
> system owner.

No problem.  Sharing this source code is perfectly fine with the
system owner.  I know him well enough to know that implicitly.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Drugs may lead to nowhere, but at least it's the scenic route.

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V51V6S6VQQPmprg2nPWiP9do6Kdrq+JTKEetri4ZoyxnXlinZP0C5EUZ3OWNWl38
yT7sojobP0PppWZ3OYU1cYzaYPwQXAweRh3M6fIFnwxqPTAPl9y/o1pT0BC8uhjq
3CDDupqjlruhRrOtTn7uZNlVwVVTOjLmXoF0lauCZLOVrXjeDwQ=
=NhZz
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From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 18:19:40 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:19:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature request
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609010855l11d12489w5838f3b2da8091a1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34a783b20609010855l11d12489w5838f3b2da8091a1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609010919v28785836j8a4f0d36c50bff80@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:
> It'd sure be nice if there were a CSS file associated with the web
> archives that mailman generates.  Perhaps, ideally, a different one
> for the individual message files and for the various index files.
> Perhaps there could be a default one that was put in by default (it
> could be pretty much null), and then each list could be configured to
> use a specific other one if the list owner wanted.  This gives a LOT
> of flexibility to spruce up (and make conform to site style) the
> appearance of the archives, for very little (it seems to me) work by
> the Mailman developers.

It's actually a fair but of work, because all of the static HTML has
to be modified to make use of CSS classes, etc., and they'd need to
remove all of the formatting and put it into a CSS file.

That said, fill out and/or check for an RFE at <http://sf.net/projects/mailman>

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 18:25:54 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:25:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting up mailman
In-Reply-To: <82A8FC2BA38D7F46998355F69C861BAFBFDA87@FRANK.nhm.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010925540515781d76b9@msapiro>

Robert Bannocks wrote:
> 
>I want to run mail man as part of the main name space, i.e.
>listnames at nhm.ac.uk, however the machine it runs on will be called
>someother.nhm.ac.uk, and 
>the alias I want for the web front end will be lists.nhm.ac.uk.  Am I
>correct in doing this by setting the following variables in
>~mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py
> 
>and that this will acheive the following
> 
>DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'nhm.ac.uk'
>DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.nhm.ac.uk'
>DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'
>VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()

As long as this is followed by

add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)


>1.  When users go to http://lists.nhm.ac.uk, they will be able to view
>the lists


This will require appropriate configuration of your webserver.
Normally, you would go to a URL like http://lists.nhm.ac.uk/mailman/.
If you want http://lists.nhm.ac.uk to go to the listinfo overview, but
you want to access various Mailman CGIs as
http://lists.nhm.ac.uk/mailman/admindb/listname, etc. then the above
is OK and for Apache as an example, you would put something like the
following in the lists.nhm.ac.uk section of httpd.conf

ScriptAlias /mailman/       /path/to/mailman/cgi-bin/
Alias   /pipermail/     /path/to/mailman/archives/public/
RedirectMatch ^[/]+$   http://lists.nhm.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo

If you don't want to use 'mailman' in the URLs at all, e.g., go to URLs
like http://lists.nhm.ac.uk/admindb/listname, you need something like

ScriptAlias /       /path/to/mailman/cgi-bin/
Alias   /pipermail/     /path/to/mailman/archives/public/
RedirectMatch ^[/]+$   http://lists.nhm.ac.uk/listinfo

And you need 

DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/'

in mm_cfg.py.


>2.  mail from the lists will come from listname at nhm.ac.uk

Yes.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 18:30:46 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:30:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature request
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609010855l11d12489w5838f3b2da8091a1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010930460765f63eb80b@msapiro>

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>It'd sure be nice if there were a CSS file associated with the web
>archives that mailman generates.

See <http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Summer+of+Code>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From bretton at hivemind.net  Fri Sep  1 17:47:39 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:47:39 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] GPL Issues (was Re: query re "message has
 implicit destination"(devils advocate!))
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
	<44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <44F8561B.3040803@hivemind.net>

Dragon said the following on 2006/09/01 05:29 PM:
> Have you actually read the GPL?
> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt

yes plus variations ;-)

> There is such an obligation explicitly defined in it within section 3
> that states that source code of any derivative work MUST be provided
> either as part of the actual distribution of the work or upon request to
> ANY third party that requests it. 

Yes, but that's not what I said. I said there was no obligation to send
changes back to original developers, but that it was polite to do so.
Obviously, if the original developers ask for the changes then yes, but if
they've failed to do so there is no obligation.
(The feedback appears to indicate that they have asked however)

In fact I can take GPL code, modify it and use it internally without either
the original developers or any third party knowing I've done so. I'm under
zero obligation to inform anyone of my actions or changes. If however I
start distributing the changed code it must be done so under the same
licence, and upon request I must make the source available.

There is no obligation for me to indicate what I changed from an original
code base (code or docs) only an obligation for me to provide the source
*on request*.

Manners imply shipping the compiled product with source, but it's not
necessary or necessarily a rule followed by everyone.

> Thus by either passively ignoring or actively refusing requests for
> source, Apple, Plesk and CPanel are in direct violation of the GPL.

Ok, then any person is welcome to contact those organisations and request
the source. If they fail to provide it you can take the matter up with the
relevant people at the FSF.

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-violation.html

(well technically only copyright holders can do so)

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"A new study shows that licking the sweat off a frog can cure depression.
The down side is, the minute you stop licking, the frog gets depressed
again." - Jay Leno


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 18:42:34 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:42:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609010852o1c3380e2m9bda285eeccb452@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
>I believe I need to do more to configure the list, so that for example
>the list name appears somewhere on the archive pages.  I'm not yet
>sure if I should do this via command line tools, or if I need to hook
>it up so the list admin web pages work on this private copy of
>mailman.


The list's real_name attribute is what will appear in the archive web
pages. This is the listname given to bin/newlist with possible
capitalization differences. You can modify the capitalization if
desired with bin/config_list before running bin/arch. Once you've run
bin/arch, it's built in to the web pages (you can run bin/arch --wipe
to rebuild them)

You don't need to run the web interface for anything assuming the
archive is 'public'. Also, since the archive is static, you don't need
the list (or Mailman) at all after the archive is created.

You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 18:49:15 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:49:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
 implicitdestination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006090108421702810f4ab56a@msapiro>
References: <PC17602006090108421702810f4ab56a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <p06240500c11e14815a91@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:42 AM -0700 2006-09-01, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>  Anyway, if you go to <http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/>
>  and follow any of the "Mac OS X 10.3  Darwin 7.0" or later "source"
>  links you will find links to Mailman source. I don't know whether this
>  is Apple modified source or just our source. I haven't had time to
>  investigate this.

Looking at 
<http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.3/mailman-105/mailman/NEWS>, 
it appears that they started with Mailman 2.1.2, but I am not yet 
seeing any Apple-modified stuff.

Looking at 
<http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.7.ppc/mailman-117/mailman/NEWS>, 
it looks like they got up to version 2.1.5, but again I'm still 
trying to figure out what parts may have been modified by Apple.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 18:53:06 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:53:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need help:
	Failure_to_exec_script._WANTED_gid_12, _GOT_gid_110
In-Reply-To: <D54C98F43BF2CC4EB000C3B2DEBC47880112CFED@mapibe12.exchange.xchg>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010953060593b8e1b0b7@msapiro>

Heinrich, Maximilian wrote:
>
>so far so good. NOW I get at least no "deferral" but "success" delivery
>message in my qmail log but with this error behind it:
>
>delivery 890: success:
>Failure_to_exec_script._WANTED_gid_12,_GOT_gid_110./Failed_to_start_/usr
>/lib/mailman/mail/mailman./did_0+0+1/
>
>:'-( (gid 12 == mail)
>
>Since using a combination of Suse9.3, PLESK and a (obviously?) special
>distribution of mailmnan that comes with this combination I'm not able
>to compile this with those funky parameters like -with-mail-gid=12 or
>something. 
>
>What can I do?


Contact the provider of your package (Suse, PLESK, ?). Some packagers
arrange for the expected group or gid to be read from some file. This
may be the case here.

Or, perhaps you can arrange for qmail to execute the pipe as group
'mail' instead of group 'popuser'.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From tomnaugh at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 18:55:35 2006
From: tomnaugh at gmail.com (Tom Kavanaugh)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:55:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View Subscriber list format
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006083116221403123de67b86@msapiro>
References: <98a90c220608311556r292cda74p9e8d96540b2cc8fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC17602006083116221403123de67b86@msapiro>
Message-ID: <98a90c220609010955q3ccf77e5te6ae75b60d60ff5c@mail.gmail.com>

I use a template to create new lists.
Si, I had already updated the template to reflect this change in new lists
being created.
obscure_addresses = 0

Thanks for the tip and the script.

Mailman rocks!
Tom

On 8/31/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
>
> Tom Kavanaugh wrote:
> >
> >Is there a way to incorporate this change across all exisitng mail lists?
> >I looked at commands in mailman/bin but did not find any command that
> could
> >do this for me. Or, am I missing something?
>
>
> First, you want to put
>
> DEFAULT_OBSCURE_ADDRESSES = No
>
> in mm_cfg.py so new lists will be created with obscure_address = No.
>
> Then you have two choices for existing lists, bin/withlist and
> bin/config_list. config_list is easier to describe so, put the
> following 1 line in a file
>
> obscure_addresses = 0
>
> and run a shell script like
>
> #!/bin/sh
> for list in `bin/list_lists --bare`
> do bin/config_list -i file $list
> done
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 19:20:50 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 02:20:50 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] GPL Issues (was Re: query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!))
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
	<44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <17656.27634.115460.76886@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Dragon writes:

 > Bretton Vine did speak thusly:

 > >I don't think there is any obligation for someone who changes the source of
 > >a GPL product to give the changes back to the original developers, [...]
 > ---------------- End original message. ---------------------
 > 
 > There is such an obligation explicitly defined in it within section 3 
 > that states that source code of any derivative work MUST be provided 
 > either as part of the actual distribution of the work or upon request 
 > to ANY third party that requests it. Section 2 also plays heavily 
 > into this situation.

Bretton's right.  Satisfying *any* of 3a, 3b, or 3c means you are in
full compliance with section 3.  If you distribute source as part of
every distribution you make, you are under no legal obligation to give
source to any third party.  That includes upstream.

BTW, I was quite surprised at the way you construe 3b; I've always
assumed "any third party" was a reference to recipients of non-source
distributions under 3c.  But IANAL and I'm often enough wrong---you're
probably right.

 > Thus by either passively ignoring or actively refusing requests for 
 > source, Apple, Plesk and CPanel are in direct violation of the GPL.

cPanel seems not to be.  Definitely not at the installation Todd
Zullinger has access to.  I would not be surprised if both Apple and
Plesk are similarly in full technical compliance.  Especially Apple,
since Steve Jobs has not had very good luck with trying to violate the
GPL in the past. :-)

Steve


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Sep  1 19:16:29 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 10:16:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] GPL Issues (was Re: query re "message has
 implicit destination"(devils advocate!))
In-Reply-To: <44F8561B.3040803@hivemind.net>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
	<44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F8561B.3040803@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901100909.08c19600@crimson-dragon.com>

Bretton Vine sent the message below at 08:47 AM 9/1/2006:
>Dragon said the following on 2006/09/01 05:29 PM:
> > Have you actually read the GPL?
> > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt
>
>yes plus variations ;-)
>
> > There is such an obligation explicitly defined in it within section 3
> > that states that source code of any derivative work MUST be provided
> > either as part of the actual distribution of the work or upon request to
> > ANY third party that requests it.
>
>Yes, but that's not what I said. I said there was no obligation to send
>changes back to original developers, but that it was polite to do so.
>Obviously, if the original developers ask for the changes then yes, but if
>they've failed to do so there is no obligation.
>(The feedback appears to indicate that they have asked however)

No, it was not exactly what you said but it could be interpreted in such a way.

>In fact I can take GPL code, modify it and use it internally without either
>the original developers or any third party knowing I've done so. I'm under
>zero obligation to inform anyone of my actions or changes.

Yes, you can. But that is also not applicable to this situation 
because Plesk and Cpanel and Apple have all taken the mailman code, 
applied changes and redistributed them.

>If however I start distributing the changed code it must be done so 
>under the same
>licence, and upon request I must make the source available.

And that is the crux of the issue because as I understand it, such 
requests have been made and rebuffed or ignored.

>There is no obligation for me to indicate what I changed from an original
>code base (code or docs) only an obligation for me to provide the source
>*on request*.
>
>Manners imply shipping the compiled product with source, but it's not
>necessary or necessarily a rule followed by everyone.

Nor is it required under the GPL. The GPL only requires that it be 
made available and does not specify the exact mechanism of how this 
must be done.

> > Thus by either passively ignoring or actively refusing requests for
> > source, Apple, Plesk and CPanel are in direct violation of the GPL.

If the link Mark posted earlier with Apple's source code does indeed 
have their version (which looks likely due to a different version 
number on it), then I retract my statement about Apple. By providing 
the source on the web, they have adhered to both the letter and the 
spirit of the GPL.

>Ok, then any person is welcome to contact those organisations and request
>the source. If they fail to provide it you can take the matter up with the
>relevant people at the FSF.
>
>http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-violation.html
>
>(well technically only copyright holders can do so)

Very true.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 19:17:58 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:17:58 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicitdestination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240500c11e14815a91@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <PC17602006090108421702810f4ab56a@msapiro>
	<p06240500c11e14815a91@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060901171758.GN4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Brad Knowles wrote:
> Looking at 
> <http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.7.ppc/mailman-117/mailman/NEWS>, 
> it looks like they got up to version 2.1.5, but again I'm still 
> trying to figure out what parts may have been modified by Apple.

I grabbed the source from:

    http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/tarballs/other/mailman-117.tar.gz

which is linked from (among other places):

    http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.7.x86/

The mailman sources are in the tarball in the mailman dir.  The diff
to that is here:

    http://pobox.com/~tmz/mailman-apple.diff.bz2

There are other Apple specific things in the tarball, Makefile, init
script, etc, which are worth checking out to see how they package
Mailman and how that may affect those coming here for some help with
those Apple packages.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels so good.

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From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 19:23:45 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:23:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
>information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.


Or you can remove them from the templates before running bin/arch.

templates/en/archtoc.html
templates/en/archtocnombox.html
templates/en/archidxhead.html
templates/en/archidxfoot.html

assuming English.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 20:55:27 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:55:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
References: <34a783b20609010852o1c3380e2m9bda285eeccb452@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609011155q27776d77s7a4bbcac10456d8e@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> >
> >I believe I need to do more to configure the list, so that for example
> >the list name appears somewhere on the archive pages.  I'm not yet
> >sure if I should do this via command line tools, or if I need to hook
> >it up so the list admin web pages work on this private copy of
> >mailman.
>
>
> The list's real_name attribute is what will appear in the archive web
> pages. This is the listname given to bin/newlist with possible
> capitalization differences. You can modify the capitalization if
> desired with bin/config_list before running bin/arch. Once you've run
> bin/arch, it's built in to the web pages (you can run bin/arch --wipe
> to rebuild them)

Ah, config_list is what I'm looking for I'm sure.  Thanks!

I've looked at the output of the tests, of course, so I know the
archives are all static; that's one reason I'm taking this approach,
it's a do-once-and-back-up scenario, it won't need any future effort
once it's done.

I'm hoping arch doesn't choke on the 43MB mbox file.

> You don't need to run the web interface for anything assuming the
> archive is 'public'. Also, since the archive is static, you don't need
> the list (or Mailman) at all after the archive is created.

Since I'm running everything as user ddb and user ddb owns everything,
even private archives should be accessible.  Doesn't matter, for this
purpose I'm setting them up as public (I'm not even doing this on the
destination system, they'll be tared up and moved when I get them
right).

> You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
> information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.

Or change the template, as someone suggested.

For the couple of extinct lists I should do something like that (or
point it to the page explaining what the list *was* and that it's
extinct).

For the big list, it's still active, so I'm pointing to it's live
page.  I'm just getting old archives together to put online.  I'm not
merging them into the new archives because of peculiarities in
Dreamhosts support of mailman -- while I control evertyhing through
the mailman web pages, I don't actually have filesystem visibility
into any of it, not even readonly.  So the old archives will be
separate from the new archives.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 20:57:13 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:57:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature request
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609010930460765f63eb80b@msapiro>
References: <34a783b20609010855l11d12489w5838f3b2da8091a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1760200609010930460765f63eb80b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609011157i2876cc20i5b8b65f6ad31bc1d@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> >It'd sure be nice if there were a CSS file associated with the web
> >archives that mailman generates.
>
> See <http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Summer+of+Code>.

That's interesting.  Although if I understand correctly, he's going
with mod_python, which like mod_perl and the rest won't be available
in a shared hosting environment.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From ken at sunward.org  Fri Sep  1 21:42:37 2006
From: ken at sunward.org (Ken Winter)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:42:37 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
Message-ID: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>

Using the Mailman web admin interface, can I / how can I:

 

1.	Delete an entire mailing list? 
2.	Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
different name but the same configuration? 
3.	Rename a list? 

 

I looked for these how-tos in the available documentation, but I can't find
them.

 

~ Thanks in advance for your help

~ Ken Winter

 

PS: I sent this query two weeks ago, and have heard no response, so I'm
sending it again.  Am I barking up the wrong tree?

 



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 21:50:02 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:50:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
	<PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609011250n4c7a8339h5c6fbb549ed674e2@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> Mark Sapiro wrote:
> >
> >You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
> >information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.
>
>
> Or you can remove them from the templates before running bin/arch.
>
> templates/en/archtoc.html
> templates/en/archtocnombox.html
> templates/en/archidxhead.html
> templates/en/archidxfoot.html
>
> assuming English.

Ah, and the individual article template really doesn't contain any
identification of the list.  Well, now I know where to fix that.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 21:51:12 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:51:12 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
	<PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609011251i6b299f5dge0b37fcaa62b24d7@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> Mark Sapiro wrote:
> >
> >You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
> >information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.
>
>
> Or you can remove them from the templates before running bin/arch.
>
> templates/en/archtoc.html
> templates/en/archtocnombox.html
> templates/en/archidxhead.html
> templates/en/archidxfoot.html
>
> assuming English.

Hey, looking at those templates plus article.html, I can put in the
CSS stuff I want right there; the code doesn't even have to be
touched.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From steele at agora-net.com  Fri Sep  1 22:02:08 2006
From: steele at agora-net.com (Ryan Steele)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 16:02:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
In-Reply-To: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>
References: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>
Message-ID: <44F891C0.40408@agora-net.com>

First off, I'm not sure if any of those are possible via the web 
interface.  I don't think that's really what the interface was designed 
for.  Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Renaming a list is a royal pain in the ass.  There's some documentation 
on the Mailman website about it, though it warns that there's no really 
safe way to do this.  And it seems to me that 2) and 3) are going to do 
the same thing.  However, for #2 you might take a look at 
bin/config_list.  As far as deleting a list, it's easy to do using the 
bin/rmlist.  Generally, if you're doing administration for a bunch of 
lists, I've found it much easier to work with the command line utilities 
that ship with Mailman.  Hope this helps a little bit.

Ryan

Ken Winter wrote:
> Using the Mailman web admin interface, can I / how can I:
>
>  
>
> 1.	Delete an entire mailing list? 
> 2.	Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
> different name but the same configuration? 
> 3.	Rename a list? 
>
>  
>
> I looked for these how-tos in the available documentation, but I can't find
> them.
>
>  
>
> ~ Thanks in advance for your help
>
> ~ Ken Winter
>
>  
>
> PS: I sent this query two weeks ago, and have heard no response, so I'm
> sending it again.  Am I barking up the wrong tree?
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/steele%40agora-net.com
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>   


-- 
Ryan Steele                         
Systems Administrator               steele at agora-net.com
AgoraNet, Inc.                      (302) 224-2475
314 E. Main Street, Suite 1         (302) 224-2552 (fax)
Newark, DE 19711                    http://www.agora-net.com



From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 22:18:44 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:18:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
In-Reply-To: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>
References: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>
Message-ID: <20060901201844.GO4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ken Winter wrote:
> Using the Mailman web admin interface, can I / how can I:
> 
> 1.	Delete an entire mailing list? 

By default you can't do this from the web interface.  If the site
admin puts OWNERS_CAN_DELETE_THEIR_OWN_LISTS = yes into mm_cfg.py,
then list owners can delete their own lists.

> 2.	Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
> different name but the same configuration? 

I don't think this is possible with the web interface.  The command
line provides a config_list tool that can be used to do this.  There
are also some scripts to drive the web interface that may be able to
do this, but I don't recall the location of those at the moment
(somewhere on starship.python.org).

> 3.	Rename a list? 

Also not possible from the web interface AFAIK.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
So I don't get hurt?!  Thats the best you can come up with you
dull-witted termagant!
    -- Stewie Griffin, on why he needs a car seat

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From betsy.schwartz at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 22:32:41 2006
From: betsy.schwartz at gmail.com (Elizabeth Schwartz)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:32:41 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to create a list with an approved list of
	posters? (not answered by FAQ?)
In-Reply-To: <p06240504c11bbecd735e@192.168.1.102>
References: <a923f15e0608301112n5401b9b2h22ed06929e570ddc@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240504c11bbecd735e@192.168.1.102>
Message-ID: <a923f15e0609011332p40a85afct425a3921b4c5f4d5@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks but I am still not getting this.

On 8/30/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
>
> At 2:12 PM -0400 2006-08-30, Elizabeth Schwartz wrote:
>
> >  I have been charged with creating two lists, each with a limited set of
> >  people who are allowed to **post** to the list.
> >  One list is an umbrella list ; the other is not.  The people who are
> allowed
> >  to post are a subset of members of the list.
>
> That would be required for the umbrella list situation, unless you
> want to apply the patch where you can use the @list notation to call
> in the list of subscribers from another list and then put that in the
> set of approved senders.


I never want the whole list to be approved, I just want a few people to be
approved.

>  I see how to allow them to post if they are *not* members of the list ,
> but
> >  not if they *are*.
>
> Just turn off their moderation bits, but leave everyone else moderated.


The people who are in the sub-lists don't have moderation bits, though. If I
make them unmodearted members of the umbrella list, and they are also
members of the sub-lists, will they get everything twice?

(I will make some dummy lists to play with.  This is all fraught with peril
because much FUD exists about email at high levels. Many phone calls
accompany use of these umbrella lists. To my knowledge, our mailman
installations have NEVER lost or mis-delivered a message. But it's hard to
prove that they never will)


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 23:05:56 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:05:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to create a list with an approved list
	ofposters? (not answered by FAQ?)
In-Reply-To: <a923f15e0609011332p40a85afct425a3921b4c5f4d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006090114055601560bcc6554@msapiro>

Elizabeth Schwartz wrote:
>
>The people who are in the sub-lists don't have moderation bits, though. If I
>make them unmodearted members of the umbrella list, and they are also
>members of the sub-lists, will they get everything twice?


Yes, unless you set their delivery on the umbrella list to disabled.

So if I understand, you have an umbrella list and some sub-lists. Your
authorized posters are unmoderated on the sub-lists so they can post
to the sub-list directly without their posts being held.

To enable them to post to the umbrella list, you have several options.

1) make the posters unmoderated members of the umbrella list with
delivery disabled. This will work, but there will be administrivia
issues. E.g., if jdoe at example.com is a member of the umbrella, things
like the password reminder for jdoe will be sent to
jdoe-owner at example.com which of course will bounce. You can turn off
password reminders too and that may cover it.

2) make the umbrella list 'open'. I.e., set Privacy options...->Sender
filters->generic_nonmember_action to accept. Then poster (who must be
unmoderated on all the sub-lists) can post and the post is accepted by
the umbrella and all the sub-lists. A non-member or non-poster post
will be accepted by the umbrella, but held by the sub-lists.

3) add the posters to accept_these_nonmembers of the umbrella list.

4) make a 'posters' list which is not a member of the umbrella, but
which has as members all the authorized posters. Apply the patch at
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1220144&group_id=103&atid=300103>
and add '@posters' to the umbrella's accept_these_nonmembers.

There are probably other ways I haven't thought of (and gotcha's I
haven't thought of too).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 23:08:06 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:08:06 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [exim]  Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <E1GJBEq-0000zQ-BC@scyw00225.scy001.de>
References: <PC17602006083116012505783de67c9b@msapiro>
	<200609011422.33607.k.oliver@t-online.de>
	<E1GJBEq-0000zQ-BC@scyw00225.scy001.de>
Message-ID: <200609012308.07145.k.oliver@t-online.de>

On Friday 01 September 2006 17:47, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:22:33 +0200, Oliver K?nig <k.oliver at t-online.de>
>
> wrote:
> >domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS= server.windfinder.com :
> > news.server.windfinder.com
> >
> >After exim4 restart the mail delivery failed completely (even for non
> > mailman mail):
> >
> >/var/log/exim4/mainlog
> >2006-09-01 10:39:13 1GJ4YH-0004nB-ND <= user at server.windfinder.com U=user
> >P=local S=11314
> >2006-09-01 10:39:13 1GJ4YH-0004nB-ND unknown named domain
> >list "+MAILMAN_domains"
>
> I suspect that names of named lists are case sensitive, and
> MAILMAN_DOMAINS does not equal MAILMAN_domains.
>
> Greetings
> Marc
I made the changes to match case sensitivity butdelivery still does not work:

server:~# exim4 -bt news at server.windfinder.com
news at server.windfinder.com
  router = mailman_router, transport = mailman_transport


server:~# exim4 -d -bt news at server.windfinder.com
Exim version 4.50 uid=0 gid=0 pid=2790 D=fbb95cfd
Berkeley DB: Sleepycat Software: Berkeley DB 4.2.52: (December  3, 2003)
Support for: iconv() IPv6 PAM Perl GnuTLS Content_Scanning Old_Demime
Lookups: lsearch wildlsearch nwildlsearch iplsearch cdb dbm dbmnz dnsdb 
dsearch ldap ldapdn ldapm mysql nis nis0 passwd pgsql
Authenticators: cram_md5 cyrus_sasl plaintext spa
Routers: accept dnslookup ipliteral iplookup manualroute queryprogram redirect
Transports: appendfile/maildir/mailstore/mbx autoreply lmtp pipe smtp
Fixed never_users: 0
changed uid/gid: forcing real = effective
  uid=0 gid=0 pid=2790
  auxiliary group list: <none>
configuration file is /var/lib/exim4/config.autogenerated
log selectors = 00000ffc 00020800
trusted user
admin user
user name "root" extracted from gecos field "root"
originator: uid=0 gid=0 login=root name=root
sender address = root at server.windfinder.com
Address testing: uid=0 gid=102 euid=0 egid=102
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Testing news at server.windfinder.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Considering news at server.windfinder.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
routing news at server.windfinder.com
--------> mailman_router router <--------
local_part=news domain=server.windfinder.com
checking require_files
file check: /var/lib/mailman/lists/$local_part/config.pck
expanded file: /var/lib/mailman/lists/news/config.pck
stat() yielded 0
calling mailman_router router
mailman_router router called for news at server.windfinder.com
  domain = server.windfinder.com
set transport mailman_transport
queued for mailman_transport transport: local_part = news
domain = server.windfinder.com
  errors_to=NULL
  domain_data=NULL localpart_data=NULL
routed by mailman_router router
  envelope to: news at server.windfinder.com
  transport: mailman_transport
news at server.windfinder.com
  router = mailman_router, transport = mailman_transport
search_tidyup called
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Exim pid=2790 terminating with rc=0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Gruss,


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 23:30:40 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:30:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [exim]  Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <200609012308.07145.k.oliver@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609011430400734c9049cc6@msapiro>

Oliver K?nig wrote:

>I made the changes to match case sensitivity butdelivery still does not work:
>
>server:~# exim4 -d -bt news at server.windfinder.com
>Exim version 4.50 uid=3D0 gid=3D0 pid=3D2790 D=3Dfbb95cfd
>Berkeley DB: Sleepycat Software: Berkeley DB 4.2.52: (December  3, 2003)
>Support for: iconv() IPv6 PAM Perl GnuTLS Content_Scanning Old_Demime
>Lookups: lsearch wildlsearch nwildlsearch iplsearch cdb dbm dbmnz dnsdb 
>dsearch ldap ldapdn ldapm mysql nis nis0 passwd pgsql
>Authenticators: cram_md5 cyrus_sasl plaintext spa
>Routers: accept dnslookup ipliteral iplookup manualroute queryprogram redirect
>Transports: appendfile/maildir/mailstore/mbx autoreply lmtp pipe smtp
>Fixed never_users: 0
>changed uid/gid: forcing real = effective
>  uid=0 gid=0 pid=2790
>  auxiliary group list: <none>
>configuration file is /var/lib/exim4/config.autogenerated
>log selectors = 00000ffc 00020800
>trusted user
>admin user
>user name "root" extracted from gecos field "root"
>originator: uid=0 gid=0 login=root name=root
>sender address = root at server.windfinder.com
>Address testing: uid=0 gid=102 euid=0 egid=102
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Testing news at server.windfinder.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Considering news at server.windfinder.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>routing news at server.windfinder.com
>--------> mailman_router router <--------
>local_part=news domain=server.windfinder.com
>checking require_files
>file check: /var/lib/mailman/lists/$local_part/config.pck
>expanded file: /var/lib/mailman/lists/news/config.pck
>stat() yielded 0
>calling mailman_router router
>mailman_router router called for news at server.windfinder.com
>  domain = server.windfinder.com
>set transport mailman_transport
>queued for mailman_transport transport: local_part = news
>domain = server.windfinder.com
>  errors_to=NULL
>  domain_data=NULL localpart_data=NULL
>routed by mailman_router router
>  envelope to: news at server.windfinder.com
>  transport: mailman_transport
>news at server.windfinder.com
>  router = mailman_router, transport = mailman_transport
>search_tidyup called
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Exim pid=3D2790 terminating with rc=0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


It looks OK to me. What doesn't work?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 23:45:19 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:45:19 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006090108111709211beb062a@msapiro>
References: <PC17602006090108111709211beb062a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <200609012345.20004.k.oliver@t-online.de>

> You seem to have case issues here, i.e., MAILMAN_DOMAINS vs.
> MAILMAN_domains. The documentation shows this all lower case. I don't
> know if that is significant or not, but it may be.
>
> Also, you don't indicate whether or not you have server.windfinder.com
> and news.server.windfinder.com in local_domains. If not, I think this
> is the cause of your relaying problem.

The lists are in the local domain (windfinder.com). So I just deleted the 
following:
domainlist mailman_domains= server.windfinder.com
MAILMAN_LISTCHK=MAILMAN_HOME/lists/${lc::$local_part}/config.pck
.. and any additional RCPT ACL should be obsolte because the lists ARE in the 
local domain. 

When a subscriber posts to the list /var/log/exim4/mainlog still says. 
2006-09-01 23:40:08 H=mailout03.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.81] 
F=<k.oliver at t-online.de> rejected RCPT <News-request at server.windfinder.com>: 
relay not permitted

Here is my complete Exim4 config:
#########
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# this file is generated dynamically from the files in
# CONFDIR/conf.d/ or /etc/exim4/exim4.conf.template respectively and
# /etc/exim4/update-exim4.conf.conf
# Any changes you make here will be lost.
# See /usr/share/doc/exim4-base/README.Debian.gz and update-exim4.conf(8)
# for instructions of customization.
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
#########
MAIN_TLS_ENABLE = true#####################################################

exim_path = /usr/sbin/exim4

.ifndef CONFDIR
CONFDIR = /etc/exim4
.endif

.ifndef DC_minimaldns

.endif

.ifndef DC_visiblename
DC_visiblename=server.windfinder.com
.endif

.ifndef MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS
MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS = @:localhost:windfinder.com:server.windfinder.com
.endif
domainlist local_domains = MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS

.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS
MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS = 
.endif
domainlist relay_to_domains = MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS

.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_NETS
MAIN_RELAY_NETS = 127.0.0.1 : ::::1 : MAIN_RELAY_NETS
.endif
hostlist relay_from_hosts = 127.0.0.1 : ::::1 : MAIN_RELAY_NETS

.ifdef DC_visiblename
qualify_domain = DC_visiblename
.endif

.ifndef DCreadhost
DCreadhost = 
.endif

.ifndef DCsmarthost
DCsmarthost = 
.endif

.ifdef MAIN_LOCAL_INTERFACES
local_interfaces = MAIN_LOCAL_INTERFACES
.else
local_interfaces = 0.0.0.0
.endif

.ifndef LOCAL_DELIVERY
LOCAL_DELIVERY=maildir_home
.endif

gecos_pattern = ^([^,:]*)
gecos_name = $1

.ifndef DCconfig_satellite
.ifndef DCconfig_internet
.ifndef DCconfig_local
.ifndef DCconfig_smarthost
DCconfig_internet = 1
.endif
.endif
.endif
.endif

.ifndef CHECK_RCPT_LOCAL_LOCALPARTS
CHECK_RCPT_LOCAL_LOCALPARTS = ^[.] : ^.*[@%!/|\'`#&?]
.endif

.ifndef CHECK_RCPT_REMOTE_LOCALPARTS
CHECK_RCPT_REMOTE_LOCALPARTS = ^[./|] : ^.*[@%!\'`#&?] : ^.*/\\.\\./
.endif

av_scanner = clamd:/var/run/clamav/clamd.ctl
spamd_address = /var/run/spamd.sock

MAILMAN_HOME=/var/lib/mailman
MAILMAN_WRAP=MAILMAN_HOME/mail/mailman

MAILMAN_USER=list
MAILMAN_GROUP=daemon

.ifndef MAIN_ACL_CHECK_RCPT
MAIN_ACL_CHECK_RCPT = acl_check_rcpt
.endif
acl_smtp_rcpt = MAIN_ACL_CHECK_RCPT

.ifndef MAIN_ACL_CHECK_DATA
MAIN_ACL_CHECK_DATA = acl_check_data
.endif
acl_smtp_data = MAIN_ACL_CHECK_DATA

.ifdef MESSAGE_SIZE_LIMIT
message_size_limit = MESSAGE_SIZE_LIMIT
.endif

.ifdef MAIN_ALLOW_DOMAIN_LITERALS
allow_domain_literals
.endif

.ifndef DC_minimaldns
.ifndef MAIN_HOST_LOOKUP
MAIN_HOST_LOOKUP = *
.endif
host_lookup = MAIN_HOST_LOOKUP
.endif

.ifndef MAIN_FORCE_SENDER
local_from_check = false
local_sender_retain = true
untrusted_set_sender = *
.endif

.ifndef MAIN_IGNORE_BOUNCE_ERRORS_AFTER
MAIN_IGNORE_BOUNCE_ERRORS_AFTER = 2d
.endif
ignore_bounce_errors_after = MAIN_IGNORE_BOUNCE_ERRORS_AFTER

.ifndef MAIN_TIMEOUT_FROZEN_AFTER
MAIN_TIMEOUT_FROZEN_AFTER = 7d
.endif
timeout_frozen_after = MAIN_TIMEOUT_FROZEN_AFTER

.ifndef MAIN_FREEZE_TELL
MAIN_FREEZE_TELL = postmaster
.endif
freeze_tell = MAIN_FREEZE_TELL

.ifndef SPOOLDIR
SPOOLDIR = /var/spool/exim4
.endif
spool_directory = SPOOLDIR

.ifndef MAIN_TRUSTED_USERS
MAIN_TRUSTED_USERS = uucp
.endif
trusted_users = MAIN_TRUSTED_USERS
.ifdef MAIN_TRUSTED_GROUPS
trusted_groups = MAIN_TRUSTED_GROUPS
.endif

.ifdef MAIN_TLS_ENABLE
.ifndef MAIN_TLS_ADVERTISE_HOSTS
MAIN_TLS_ADVERTISE_HOSTS = *
.endif
tls_advertise_hosts = MAIN_TLS_ADVERTISE_HOSTS

.ifndef MAIN_TLS_CERTIFICATE
MAIN_TLS_CERTIFICATE = CONFDIR/exim.crt
.endif
tls_certificate = MAIN_TLS_CERTIFICATE

.ifndef MAIN_TLS_PRIVATEKEY
MAIN_TLS_PRIVATEKEY = CONFDIR/exim.key
.endif
tls_privatekey = MAIN_TLS_PRIVATEKEY

.ifndef MAIN_TLS_VERIFY_CERTIFICATES
MAIN_TLS_VERIFY_CERTIFICATES = ${if 
exists{/etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt}\
                                    {/etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt}\
				    {/dev/null}}
.endif
tls_verify_certificates = MAIN_TLS_VERIFY_CERTIFICATES

.ifdef MAIN_TLS_VERIFY_HOSTS
tls_verify_hosts = MAIN_TLS_VERIFY_HOSTS
.endif

.ifndef MAIN_TLS_TRY_VERIFY_HOSTS
MAIN_TLS_TRY_VERIFY_HOSTS = *
.endif
tls_try_verify_hosts = MAIN_TLS_TRY_VERIFY_HOSTS

.endif

begin acl

acl_whitelist_local_deny:
  accept
    hosts = ${if exists{CONFDIR/local_host_whitelist}\
                 {CONFDIR/local_host_whitelist}\
                 {}}
  accept
    senders = ${if exists{CONFDIR/local_sender_whitelist}\
                   {CONFDIR/local_sender_whitelist}\
                   {}}

  .ifdef WHITELIST_LOCAL_DENY_LOCAL_ACL_FILE
  .include WHITELIST_LOCAL_DENY_LOCAL_ACL_FILE
  .endif

acl_check_rcpt:
  accept
    hosts = :

  warn
    hosts = +relay_from_hosts
    control = submission/sender_retain

  .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_LOCAL_LOCALPARTS
  deny
    domains = +local_domains
    local_parts = CHECK_RCPT_LOCAL_LOCALPARTS
    message = restricted characters in address
  .endif

  .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_REMOTE_LOCALPARTS
  deny
    domains = !+local_domains
    local_parts = CHECK_RCPT_REMOTE_LOCALPARTS
    message = restricted characters in address
  .endif

  accept
    .ifndef CHECK_RCPT_POSTMASTER
    local_parts = postmaster
    .else
    local_parts = CHECK_RCPT_POSTMASTER
    .endif
    domains = +local_domains

  deny
    message = sender envelope address $sender_address is locally blacklisted 
here. If you think this is wrong, get in touch with postmaster
    !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
    senders = ${if exists{CONFDIR/local_sender_blacklist}\
                   {CONFDIR/local_sender_blacklist}\
                   {}}

  deny
    message = sender IP address $sender_host_address is locally blacklisted 
here. If you think this is wrong, get in touch with postmaster
    !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
    hosts = ${if exists{CONFDIR/local_host_blacklist}\
                 {CONFDIR/local_host_blacklist}\
                 {}}

  .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_VERIFY_SENDER
  deny
    message = Sender verification failed
    !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
    !verify = sender
  .endif

  deny
    !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
    senders = ${if exists{CONFDIR/local_sender_callout}\
                         {CONFDIR/local_sender_callout}\
                   {}}
    !verify = sender/callout

  deny
    !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
    recipients = ${if exists{CONFDIR/local_rcpt_callout}\
                            {CONFDIR/local_rcpt_callout}\
                      {}}
    !verify = recipient/callout

  .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_REVERSE_DNS
  warn
    message = X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 
$sender_host_address (${if eq{$host_lookup_failed}{1}{failed}{deferred}})
     condition = ${if and{{def:sender_host_address}{!def:sender_host_name}}\
                      {yes}{no}}
  .endif

  .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_IP_DNSBLS
  warn
    message = X-Warning: $sender_host_address is listed at $dnslist_domain 
($dnslist_value: $dnslist_text)
    log_message = $sender_host_address is listed at $dnslist_domain 
($dnslist_value: $dnslist_text)
    dnslists = CHECK_RCPT_IP_DNSBLS
  .endif

  .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_DOMAIN_DNSBLS
  warn
    message = X-Warning: $sender_address_domain is listed at $dnslist_domain 
($dnslist_value: $dnslist_text)
    log_message = $sender_address_domain is listed at $dnslist_domain 
($dnslist_value: $dnslist_text)
    !senders = ${if exists{CONFDIR/local_domain_dnsbl_whitelist}\
                    {CONFDIR/local_domain_dnsbl_whitelist}\
                    {}}
    dnslists = CHECK_RCPT_DOMAIN_DNSBLS/$sender_address_domain
  .endif

  .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_LOCAL_ACL_FILE
  .include CHECK_RCPT_LOCAL_ACL_FILE
  .endif

  accept
    domains = +local_domains
    endpass
    message = unknown user
    verify = recipient

  accept
    domains = +relay_to_domains
    endpass
    .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_GIVE_UNKNOWN_USER
    message = ${if eq{$acl_verify_message}{Unrouteable address}{unknown user}
{$acl_verify_message}}
    .else
    message = unrouteable address
    .endif
    verify = recipient

  accept
    hosts = +relay_from_hosts

  accept
    authenticated = *

  deny
    message = relay not permitted

acl_check_data:

  .ifdef CHECK_DATA_VERIFY_HEADER_SYNTAX
  deny
    message = Message headers fail syntax check
    !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
    !verify = header_syntax
  .endif

  .ifdef CHECK_DATA_VERIFY_HEADER_SENDER
  deny
    message = No verifiable sender address in message headers
    !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
    !verify = header_sender
  .endif

  deny
    message = This message contains a virus: ($malware_name) please scan your 
system.
     demime = *
     malware = *

  warn  message = X-Spam-Score: $spam_score ($spam_bar)
        spam = nobody:true
  warn  message = X-Spam-Report: $spam_report
        spam = nobody:true
  
  warn  message = Subject: *SPAM* $h_Subject:
        spam = nobody
  
  deny   message = This message scored $spam_score spam points.
         spam = nobody:true
         condition = ${if >{$spam_score_int}{100}{1}{0}}

  .ifdef CHECK_DATA_LOCAL_ACL_FILE
  .include CHECK_DATA_LOCAL_ACL_FILE
  .endif

  accept

begin routers

mailman_router:
  driver = accept
  require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
  local_part_suffix_optional
  local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
                      -confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
                      -owner : -request : -admin
  transport = mailman_transport

.ifdef MAIN_ALLOW_DOMAIN_LITERALS
domain_literal:
  debug_print = "R: domain_literal for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = ipliteral
  domains = ! +local_domains
  transport = remote_smtp
.endif

hubbed_hosts:
  debug_print = "R: hubbed_hosts for $domain"
  driver = manualroute
  domains = "${if exists{CONFDIR/hubbed_hosts}\
                   {partial-lsearch;CONFDIR/hubbed_hosts}\
              fail}"
  route_data = ${lookup{$domain}partial-lsearch{CONFDIR/hubbed_hosts}}
  transport = remote_smtp

.ifdef DCconfig_internet

dnslookup_relay_to_domains:
  debug_print = "R: dnslookup_relay_to_domains for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = dnslookup
  domains = ! +local_domains : +relay_to_domains
  transport = remote_smtp
  same_domain_copy_routing = yes
  no_more

dnslookup:
  debug_print = "R: dnslookup for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = dnslookup
  domains = ! +local_domains
  transport = remote_smtp
  same_domain_copy_routing = yes
  ignore_target_hosts = 0.0.0.0 : 127.0.0.0/8 : 192.168.0.0/16 :\
                        172.16.0.0/12 : 10.0.0.0/8 : 169.254.0.0/16
  no_more

.endif

.ifdef DCconfig_local
nonlocal:
  debug_print = "R: nonlocal for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = redirect
  domains = ! +local_domains
  allow_fail
  data = :fail: Mailing to remote domains not supported
  no_more

.endif

.ifdef DCconfig_smarthost DCconfig_satellite

smarthost:
  debug_print = "R: smarthost for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = manualroute
  domains = ! +local_domains
  transport = remote_smtp_smarthost
  route_list = * DCsmarthost byname
  host_find_failed = defer
  same_domain_copy_routing = yes
  no_more

.endif

real_local:
  debug_print = "R: real_local for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = accept
  domains = +local_domains
  local_part_prefix = real-
  check_local_user
  transport = LOCAL_DELIVERY

system_aliases:
  debug_print = "R: system_aliases for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = redirect
  domains = +local_domains
  allow_fail
  allow_defer
  data = ${lookup{$local_part}lsearch{/etc/aliases}}
  .ifdef SYSTEM_ALIASES_USER
  user = SYSTEM_ALIASES_USER
  .endif
  .ifdef SYSTEM_ALIASES_GROUP
  group = SYSTEM_ALIASES_GROUP
  .endif
  .ifdef SYSTEM_ALIASES_FILE_TRANSPORT
  file_transport = SYSTEM_ALIASES_FILE_TRANSPORT
  .endif
  .ifdef SYSTEM_ALIASES_PIPE_TRANSPORT
  pipe_transport = SYSTEM_ALIASES_PIPE_TRANSPORT
  .endif
  .ifdef SYSTEM_ALIASES_DIRECTORY_TRANSPORT
  directory_transport = SYSTEM_ALIASES_DIRECTORY_TRANSPORT
  .endif

.ifdef DCconfig_satellite
hub_user:
  debug_print = "R: hub_user for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = redirect
  domains = +local_domains
  data = ${local_part}@DCreadhost
  check_local_user

hub_user_smarthost:
  debug_print = "R: hub_user_smarthost for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = manualroute
  domains = DCreadhost
  transport = remote_smtp_smarthost
  route_list = * DCsmarthost byname
  host_find_failed = defer
  same_domain_copy_routing = yes
  check_local_user
.endif

userforward:
  debug_print = "R: userforward for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = redirect
  domains = +local_domains
  check_local_user
  file = $home/.forward
  no_verify
  no_expn
  check_ancestor
  allow_filter
  directory_transport = address_directory
  file_transport = address_file
  pipe_transport = address_pipe
  reply_transport = address_reply
  skip_syntax_errors
  syntax_errors_to = real-$local_part@$domain
  syntax_errors_text = \
    This is an automatically generated message. An error has\n\
    been found in your .forward file. Details of the error are\n\
    reported below. While this error persists, you will receive\n\
    a copy of this message for every message that is addressed\n\
    to you. If your .forward file is a filter file, or if it is\n\
    a non-filter file containing no valid forwarding addresses,\n\
    a copy of each incoming message will be put in your normal\n\
    mailbox. If a non-filter file contains at least one valid\n\
    forwarding address, forwarding to the valid addresses will\n\
    happen, and those will be the only deliveries that occur.

procmail:
  debug_print = "R: procmail for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = accept
  domains = +local_domains
  check_local_user
  transport = procmail_pipe
  require_files = ${local_part}:\
                  ${if exists{/etc/procmailrc}\
                    {/etc/procmailrc}{${home}/.procmailrc}}:\
                  +/usr/bin/procmail
  no_verify
  no_expn

maildrop:
  debug_print = "R: maildrop for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = accept
  domains = +local_domains
  check_local_user
  transport = maildrop_pipe
  require_files = ${local_part}:${home}/.mailfilter:+/usr/bin/maildrop
  no_verify
  no_expn

local_user:
  debug_print = "R: local_user for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = accept
  domains = +local_domains
  check_local_user
  local_parts = ! root
  transport = LOCAL_DELIVERY

mail4root:
  debug_print = "R: mail4root for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = redirect
  domains = +local_domains
  data = /var/mail/mail
  file_transport = address_file
  local_parts = root
  user = mail
  group = mail

begin transports

mailman_transport:
  driver = pipe
  command = MAILMAN_WRAP \
            '${if def:local_part_suffix \
                  {${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
                  {post}}' \
            $local_part
  current_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  home_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  user = MAILMAN_USER
  group = MAILMAN_GROUP

address_file:
  debug_print = "T: address_file for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = appendfile
  delivery_date_add
  envelope_to_add
  return_path_add

address_pipe:
  debug_print = "T: address_pipe for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = pipe
  return_fail_output

address_reply:
  debug_print = "T: autoreply for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = autoreply

mail_spool:
  debug_print = "T: appendfile for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = appendfile
  file = /var/mail/$local_part
  delivery_date_add
  envelope_to_add
  return_path_add
  group = mail
  mode = 0660
  mode_fail_narrower = false

maildir_home:
  debug_print = "T: maildir_home for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = appendfile
  .ifdef MAILDIR_HOME_MAILDIR_LOCATION
  directory = MAILDIR_HOME_MAILDIR_LOCATION
  .else
  directory = $home/Maildir
  .endif
  .ifdef MAILDIR_HOME_CREATE_DIRECTORY
  create_directory
  .endif
  .ifdef MAILDIR_HOME_CREATE_FILE
  create_file = MAILDIR_HOME_CREATE_FILE
  .endif
  delivery_date_add
  envelope_to_add
  return_path_add
  maildir_format
  .ifdef MAILDIR_HOME_DIRECTORY_MODE
  directory_mode = MAILDIR_HOME_DIRECTORY_MODE
  .else
  directory_mode = 0700
  .endif
  .ifdef MAILDIR_HOME_MODE
  mode = MAILDIR_HOME_MODE
  .else
  mode = 0600
  .endif
  mode_fail_narrower = false

maildrop_pipe:
  debug_print = "T: maildrop_pipe for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = pipe
  path = "/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin"
  command = "/usr/bin/maildrop"
  return_path_add
  delivery_date_add
  envelope_to_add

procmail_pipe:
  debug_print = "T: procmail_pipe for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = pipe
  path = "/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin"
  command = "/usr/bin/procmail"
  return_path_add
  delivery_date_add
  envelope_to_add

remote_smtp:
  debug_print = "T: remote_smtp for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = smtp

remote_smtp_smarthost:
  debug_print = "T: remote_smtp_smarthost for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = smtp
  hosts_try_auth = ${if exists {CONFDIR/passwd.client}{DCsmarthost}{}}
  tls_tempfail_tryclear = false
  
  

address_directory:
  debug_print = "T: address_directory for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = appendfile
  envelope_to_add = true
  return_path_add = true
  check_string = ""
  escape_string = ""
  maildir_format

begin retry

*                      *           F,2h,15m; G,16h,1h,1.5; F,4d,6h

begin rewrite

*@+local_domains ${lookup{${local_part}}lsearch{/etc/email-addresses}\
                   {$value}fail} Ffrs
*@server.windfinder.com ${lookup{${local_part}}lsearch{/etc/email-addresses}
{$value}fail} Ffrs

begin authenticators

plain_courier_authdaemon:
  driver = plaintext
  public_name = PLAIN
  server_condition = \
               ${if eq {${readsocket{/var/run/courier/authdaemon/socket}\
               {AUTH ${strlen:exim\nlogin\n$2\n$3\n}\nexim\nlogin\n$2\n$3\n}}}
{FAIL\n}{no}{yes}}
  server_set_id = $2
  .ifndef AUTH_SERVER_ALLOW_NOTLS_PASSWORDS
  server_advertise_condition = ${if eq{$tls_cipher}{}{}{*}}
  .endif
 
login_courier_authdaemon:
   driver = plaintext
   public_name = LOGIN
   server_prompts = Username:: : Password::
   server_condition = ${if eq 
{${readsocket{/var/run/courier/authdaemon/socket} \
                 {AUTH 
${strlen:exim\nlogin\n$1\n$2\n}\nexim\nlogin\n$1\n$2\n}}}{FAIL\n}{no}{yes}}
   server_set_id = $1
   .ifndef AUTH_SERVER_ALLOW_NOTLS_PASSWORDS
   server_advertise_condition = ${if eq{$tls_cipher}{}{}{*}}
  .endif

cram_md5:
  driver = cram_md5
  public_name = CRAM-MD5
  client_name = ${extract{1}{:}{${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}
{$value}fail}}}
  client_secret = ${extract{2}{:}
{${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}}

plain:
  driver = plaintext
  public_name = PLAIN
.ifndef AUTH_CLIENT_ALLOW_NOTLS_PASSWORDS
  client_send = "${if !eq{$tls_cipher}{}{\
                     ^${extract{1}{::}\
		       {${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}}\
		     ^${extract{2}{::}\
		       {${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}}\
		   }fail}"
.else
  client_send = "^${extract{1}{::}
{${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}}^${extract{2}
{::}{${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}}"
.endif

login:
  driver = plaintext
  public_name = LOGIN
.ifndef AUTH_CLIENT_ALLOW_NOTLS_PASSWORDS
  client_send = "${if !eq{$tls_cipher}{}{}fail}\
                 : ${extract{1}{::}\
		        {${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}} \
		 : ${extract{2}{::}\
		     {${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}}"
.else
  client_send = ": ${extract{1}{::}
{${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}} : ${extract{2}
{::}{${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}}"
.endif
----

Regards,
Oliver





From k.oliver at t-online.de  Sat Sep  2 00:34:21 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:34:21 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [exim]  Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <20060901220329.GA8215@www.lobefin.net>
References: <PC17602006090108111709211beb062a@msapiro>
	<200609012345.20004.k.oliver@t-online.de>
	<20060901220329.GA8215@www.lobefin.net>
Message-ID: <200609020034.22028.k.oliver@t-online.de>

On Saturday 02 September 2006 00:03, Stephen Gran wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 11:45:19PM +0200, Oliver K?nig said:
> > > You seem to have case issues here, i.e., MAILMAN_DOMAINS vs.
> > > MAILMAN_domains. The documentation shows this all lower case. I don't
> > > know if that is significant or not, but it may be.
> > >
> > > Also, you don't indicate whether or not you have server.windfinder.com
> > > and news.server.windfinder.com in local_domains. If not, I think this
> > > is the cause of your relaying problem.
> >
> > The lists are in the local domain (windfinder.com). So I just deleted the
> > following:
> > domainlist mailman_domains= server.windfinder.com
> > MAILMAN_LISTCHK=MAILMAN_HOME/lists/${lc::$local_part}/config.pck
> > .. and any additional RCPT ACL should be obsolte because the lists ARE in
> > the local domain.
> >
> > When a subscriber posts to the list /var/log/exim4/mainlog still says.
> > 2006-09-01 23:40:08 H=mailout03.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.81]
> > F=<k.oliver at t-online.de> rejected RCPT
> > <News-request at server.windfinder.com>: relay not permitted
> >
> > .ifndef MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS
> > MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS = @:localhost:windfinder.com:server.windfinder.com
> > .endif
> > domainlist local_domains = MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS
>
> That should set the domainlist local_domains to be the list
> MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS, which is what you wnat, unless of course it is
> elsewhere defined (command line or something).  Should be OK, though.
>
> [snip]
>
> >   accept
> >     domains = +local_domains
> >     endpass
> >     message = unknown user
> >     verify = recipient
> >
> >   accept
> >     domains = +relay_to_domains
> >     endpass
> >     .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_GIVE_UNKNOWN_USER
> >     message = ${if eq{$acl_verify_message}{Unrouteable address}{unknown
> > user} {$acl_verify_message}}
> >     .else
> >     message = unrouteable address
> >     .endif
> >     verify = recipient
> >
> >   accept
> >     hosts = +relay_from_hosts
> >
> >   accept
> >     authenticated = *
> >
> >   deny
> >     message = relay not permitted
>
> This should accept the message, unless the local part isn't routeable.
>
> So, run:
>
> /usr/sbin/exim4 -bhc 194.25.134.81
>
> (output from exim)
> EHLO mailout03.sul.t-online.com
> (output from exim)
> MAIL FROM:<k.oliver at t-online.de>
> (output from exim)
> RCPT TO:<News-request at server.windfinder.com>
>
> (the part you type begins in caps)
> And post the bit after RCPT TO.  someone will spot the flaw.
My dynamic IP address has changed so I used H=mailout02.sul.t-online.com 
[194.25.134.17] F=<k.oliver at t-online.de>. Here is the output after RCPT TO

RCPT TO:<News-request at server.windfinder.com>
>>> using ACL "acl_check_rcpt"
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check hosts = :
>>> host in ":"? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> processing "warn"
>>> check hosts = +relay_from_hosts
>>> no IP address found for host MAIN_RELAY_NETS (during SMTP connection from 
mailout02.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.17])
LOG: no IP address found for host MAIN_RELAY_NETS (during SMTP connection from 
mailout02.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.17])
>>> host in "127.0.0.1 : ::::1 : 127.0.0.1 : ::::1 : MAIN_RELAY_NETS"? no 
(failed to find IP address for MAIN_RELAY_NETS)
>>> host in "+relay_from_hosts"? no (end of list)
>>> warn: condition test failed
>>> processing "deny"
>>> check domains = +local_domains
>>> server.windfinder.com 
in "@:localhost:windfinder.com:server.windfinder.com"? yes 
(matched "server.windfinder.com")
>>> server.windfinder.com in "+local_domains"? yes (matched "+local_domains")
>>> check local_parts = ^[.] : ^.*[@%!/|\'`#&?]
>>> News-request in "^[.] : ^.*[@%!/|'`#&?]"? no (end of list)
>>> deny: condition test failed
>>> processing "deny"
>>> check domains = !+local_domains
>>> server.windfinder.com in "!+local_domains"? no (matched "!
+local_domains" - cached)
>>> deny: condition test failed
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check local_parts = postmaster
>>> News-request in "postmaster"? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> processing "deny"
>>> check !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
>>> using ACL "acl_whitelist_local_deny"
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check hosts = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_host_whitelist}
{/etc/exim4/local_host_whitelist}{}}
>>> host in ""? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check senders = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_sender_whitelist}
{/etc/exim4/local_sender_whitelist}{}}
>>> k.oliver at t-online.de in ""? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> end of ACL "acl_whitelist_local_deny": implicit DENY
>>> check senders = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_sender_blacklist}
{/etc/exim4/local_sender_blacklist}{}}
>>> k.oliver at t-online.de in ""? no (end of list)
>>> deny: condition test failed
>>> processing "deny"
>>> check !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
>>> using ACL "acl_whitelist_local_deny"
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check hosts = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_host_whitelist}
{/etc/exim4/local_host_whitelist}{}}
>>> host in ""? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check senders = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_sender_whitelist}
{/etc/exim4/local_sender_whitelist}{}}
>>> k.oliver at t-online.de in ""? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> end of ACL "acl_whitelist_local_deny": implicit DENY
>>> check hosts = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_host_blacklist}
{/etc/exim4/local_host_blacklist}{}}
>>> host in ""? no (end of list)
>>> deny: condition test failed
>>> processing "deny"
>>> check !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
>>> using ACL "acl_whitelist_local_deny"
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check hosts = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_host_whitelist}
{/etc/exim4/local_host_whitelist}{}}
>>> host in ""? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check senders = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_sender_whitelist}
{/etc/exim4/local_sender_whitelist}{}}
>>> k.oliver at t-online.de in ""? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> end of ACL "acl_whitelist_local_deny": implicit DENY
>>> check senders = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_sender_callout}
{/etc/exim4/local_sender_callout}{}}
>>> k.oliver at t-online.de in ""? no (end of list)
>>> deny: condition test failed
>>> processing "deny"
>>> check !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
>>> using ACL "acl_whitelist_local_deny"
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check hosts = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_host_whitelist}
{/etc/exim4/local_host_whitelist}{}}
>>> host in ""? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check senders = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_sender_whitelist}
{/etc/exim4/local_sender_whitelist}{}}
>>> k.oliver at t-online.de in ""? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> end of ACL "acl_whitelist_local_deny": implicit DENY
>>> check recipients = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_rcpt_callout}
{/etc/exim4/local_rcpt_callout}{}}
>>> News-request at server.windfinder.com in ""? no (end of list)
>>> deny: condition test failed
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check domains = +local_domains
>>> server.windfinder.com in "+local_domains"? yes (matched "+local_domains" - 
cached)
>>> check verify = recipient
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> routing News-request at server.windfinder.com
>>> calling mailman_router router
>>> routed by mailman_router router
>>> ----------- end verify ------------
>>> accept: condition test succeeded
250 Accepted
                                                     


From mailman at veggiechinese.net  Sat Sep  2 00:50:03 2006
From: mailman at veggiechinese.net (William Yardley)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:50:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] quick script to rebuild subscriber list from logs
Message-ID: <20060901225003.GC32508@mitch.veggiechinese.net>

So I had a list configuration get hosed recently, and unfortunately, my
only backups were from after the configuration got hosed.

Fortunately, I had a Mailman subscription log dating back to before the
list was created, so I decided to throw together a little script to
rebuild the subscriber list.

Anyway, this isn't perfect / well thought-out, and isn't really designed
in a super user-friendly way, but thought I'd throw it out there in case
it helps out someone in a similar spot in the future.

The script reads a file named "subscribe" in the current directory, and
writes out a list of regular and digest subscribers based on that log
(you'd have to change the paths around if you don't want to write to
/tmp/digestfile and /tmp/regularfile).

w


From mailman at veggiechinese.net  Sat Sep  2 00:56:30 2006
From: mailman at veggiechinese.net (William Yardley)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:56:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] quick script to rebuild subscriber list from
	logs
In-Reply-To: <20060901225003.GC32508@mitch.veggiechinese.net>
References: <20060901225003.GC32508@mitch.veggiechinese.net>
Message-ID: <20060901225630.GD32508@mitch.veggiechinese.net>

Ok - so the attachment got stripped.

Anyway, it's up at:

 http://veggiechinese.net/rebuild_subscriber_list.txt

w



From ken at sunward.org  Sat Sep  2 01:25:52 2006
From: ken at sunward.org (Ken Winter)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:25:52 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
In-Reply-To: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>
Message-ID: <00a501c6ce1d$f88e5a10$6703a8c0@kenxp>

Todd, Ryan, & Dan ~

Thanks for your responses.  Glad to know I was barking up the right tree.
I'm communicating with my host administrator to see if I have the privileges
to do what I'm trying to do.

~ Ken


    -----Original Message-----
    From: mailman-users-bounces+ken=sunward.org at python.org [mailto:mailman-
    users-bounces+ken=sunward.org at python.org] On Behalf Of Ken Winter
    Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 3:43 PM
    To: mailman-users at python.org
    Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
    
    Using the Mailman web admin interface, can I / how can I:


    1.	Delete an entire mailing list?
    2.	Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
    different name but the same configuration?
    3.	Rename a list?

    I looked for these how-tos in the available documentation, but I can't
    find
    them.
    
    
    
    ~ Thanks in advance for your help
    
    ~ Ken Winter
    
    
    
    PS: I sent this query two weeks ago, and have heard no response, so I'm
    sending it again.  Am I barking up the wrong tree?
    
    
    
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Mailman-Users mailing list
    Mailman-Users at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
    Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
    Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
    users%40python.org/
    Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
    users/ken%40sunward.org
    
    Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-
    mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp




From ken at sunward.org  Sat Sep  2 03:10:11 2006
From: ken at sunward.org (Ken Winter)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 21:10:11 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
In-Reply-To: <00a501c6ce1d$f88e5a10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
Message-ID: <00ad01c6ce2c$8bad2160$6703a8c0@kenxp>

My host administrator says I have the privileges I need.  Indeed, I can get
to /usr/local/mailman/ through a SSH shell.  But, see, I'm more-or-less UNIX
/ LINUX ignorant, so I can't seem to get anything to happen from there.  Can
you point me to some command line documentation that can get me through to
where I can do the stuff I need to do?

~ TIA
~ Ken

    -----Original Message-----
    From: mailman-users-bounces+ken=sunward.org at python.org [mailto:mailman-
    users-bounces+ken=sunward.org at python.org] On Behalf Of Ken Winter
    Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 7:26 PM
    To: mailman-users at python.org
    Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
    
    Todd, Ryan, & Dan ~
    
    Thanks for your responses.  Glad to know I was barking up the right
    tree.
    I'm communicating with my host administrator to see if I have the
    privileges
    to do what I'm trying to do.
    
    ~ Ken
    
    
        -----Original Message-----
        From: mailman-users-bounces+ken=sunward.org at python.org
    [mailto:mailman-
        users-bounces+ken=sunward.org at python.org] On Behalf Of Ken Winter
        Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 3:43 PM
        To: mailman-users at python.org
        Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
    
        Using the Mailman web admin interface, can I / how can I:
    
    
        1.	Delete an entire mailing list?
        2.	Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
        different name but the same configuration?
        3.	Rename a list?
    
        I looked for these how-tos in the available documentation, but I
    can't
        find
        them.
    
    
    
        ~ Thanks in advance for your help
    
        ~ Ken Winter
    
    
    
        PS: I sent this query two weeks ago, and have heard no response, so
    I'm
        sending it again.  Am I barking up the wrong tree?
    
    
    
        ------------------------------------------------------
        Mailman-Users mailing list
        Mailman-Users at python.org
        http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
        Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
        Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
        users%40python.org/
        Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
        users/ken%40sunward.org
    
        Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-
        mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
    
    
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Mailman-Users mailing list
    Mailman-Users at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
    Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
    Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
    users%40python.org/
    Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
    users/ken%40sunward.org
    
    Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-
    mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp




From jwblist3 at olympus.net  Sat Sep  2 03:14:23 2006
From: jwblist3 at olympus.net (John W. Baxter)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:14:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <C11E28FF.E6B9%jwblist3@olympus.net>

On 8/31/06 4:09 PM, "Brad Knowles" <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:

> Actually, I think either "unapproved" or "unauthorized" are the most
> appropriate terms.  After all, the code is released under the GPL,
> and anyone who is making modifications to that code and then making
> their modified version available to their customers (or otherwise
> benefiting from those modifications) are supposed to contribute the
> source to their changes back to the community.  But CPanel has not
> done this, neither has Plesk, nor Apple.
> 
> Now, in a way, Apple gives back to the project more than they
> probably realize, but that's not the same thing.
> 
> 
> So, while we don't make that big a deal of this issue, I think I'm
> actually being reasonably lenient on these companies.

I continue to think that "un-vetted" is closer.  GPL doesn't give Mailman's
copyright holders control over what changes are made, which "unapproved" or
"unauthorized" would seem to imply.

I think.

  --John




From maltokyo at gmail.com  Sat Sep  2 03:39:44 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 10:39:44 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Add "sender's name/email" to BODY of mail as header?
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609011839l5849b711u3351af2a50468d0a@mail.gmail.com>

I want all mails sent to the list to come from the list's email address...

But, in this case, if the user forgets to sign their name at the
bottom of their mail body, effectively the mail to the list is
anonymous...!

Is there a way to add the user name (or email address) to the top of
each mail so that the mails have the name of the sender, while the
mail itself comes from the list address?

I have looked high and low for an answer, but noone seems to have the solution.
Thank you!
Mal


From tmz at pobox.com  Sat Sep  2 04:16:36 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 22:16:36 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
In-Reply-To: <00ad01c6ce2c$8bad2160$6703a8c0@kenxp>
References: <00a501c6ce1d$f88e5a10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
	<00ad01c6ce2c$8bad2160$6703a8c0@kenxp>
Message-ID: <20060902021636.GQ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ken Winter wrote:
> My host administrator says I have the privileges I need.  Indeed, I can get
> to /usr/local/mailman/ through a SSH shell.

Excellent.

> But, see, I'm more-or-less UNIX / LINUX ignorant, so I can't seem to
> get anything to happen from there.  Can you point me to some command
> line documentation that can get me through to where I can do the
> stuff I need to do?

Most of the command line tools are fairly straightforward and running
them without any options/arguments results in usage information.

The mailman FAQ and the archives of this list have examples and details
of how to use the tools to perform various tasks, searching those
would be a good place to start for general info on the mailman command
line tools.

Taking your original list of tasks but knowing now that you aren't
limited to the web interface, I'd answer a little differently...

> 1.  Delete an entire mailing list?

bin/rmlist would be the tool to use.  It's pretty simple in usage,
just pass it a listname to remove.  If you want to delete the list's
archives as well, use the -a option.

bin/rmlist -a testlist

> 2.  Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
> different name but the same configuration?

That's a task for config_list.  The basic steps are

a) bin/newlist newlist (or use the web interface)
b) bin/config_list -o config oldlist
c) edit config, change any references to the old list to the newlist
c) bin/config_list -i config newlist

> 3.  Rename a list?
            
Renaming is a minor pain.  Perhaps it's best to search the archives.
I've done it but not often enough that I could give you the steps from
memory.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
It's not God. I'm down with God; it's the damn fan club that pisses me
off.
    -- Dan Berger

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From msapiro at value.net  Sat Sep  2 04:48:05 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:48:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Add "sender's name/email" to BODY of mail as
	header?
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609011839l5849b711u3351af2a50468d0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609011948050125b8e1aee2@msapiro>

Mal wrote:

>I want all mails sent to the list to come from the list's email address...
>
>But, in this case, if the user forgets to sign their name at the
>bottom of their mail body, effectively the mail to the list is
>anonymous...!


That's why the setting that controls this is called anonymous_list.


>Is there a way to add the user name (or email address) to the top of
>each mail so that the mails have the name of the sender, while the
>mail itself comes from the list address?


Only by modifying Mailman code or creating a custom handler to do it.


I wonder why you want all mail to be From: the list if you also want
the poster to be identified. If it is because you want filtering rules
to be able to identify the mail as list mail, consider using some
header other than From: such as X-BeenThere: which identifies the list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Sep  2 04:54:50 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:54:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
In-Reply-To: <20060902021636.GQ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609011954500750b8e1b180@msapiro>

Todd Zullinger wrote:
>            
>Renaming is a minor pain.  Perhaps it's best to search the archives.
>I've done it but not often enough that I could give you the steps from
>memory.

I posted a reply to this. It may show up eventually, but in case it
disappeared in my outgoing server whose queue I can't see, the
procedure is in the FAQ.
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.070.htp>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From gerald at silvasolutions.net  Sat Sep  2 14:23:19 2006
From: gerald at silvasolutions.net (Gerald Edwards)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 08:23:19 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin Functions Failing
Message-ID: <02ac01c6ce8a$932ce700$6601a8c0@KISTraders>

I have installed Mailman 2 with Postfix 2.1.5 on Debian Sarge 3.2 running VirtualDomains on Apache2.

After some trial and error, several remove and purge (start all over) It's up and delivering mail as it should.  Before I went to bed (in the wee hours of Friday morning) I ran a final check and tested the mass add of 3 users (3 of my email accounts at various servers).  All appeared to be working very nicely.  I even created two other mailing lists without incident.

Friday morning (closer to noon) when I went to "show it off" the Administration portion fails to function.  It allows me to login but any action bounces back to the login screen and does not perform the requested function.  I have four mailing lists with Mailman as the primary list and all four behave the same way.  I have checked the cookies and they're setting fine.

I did reboot the server before retiring and after performing the tests, so I'm sure that I've made an error or failed to save a change but can't figure out what I did wrong.  Any help or clue as to where to look would be most helpful.

I've gone through the installation instructions several times and checked the various config files and all appear to be set correctly.

I'm stumped and need a shove.

Thanks
Gerald

From maltokyo at gmail.com  Sat Sep  2 15:25:56 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 22:25:56 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin Functions Failing
In-Reply-To: <02ac01c6ce8a$932ce700$6601a8c0@KISTraders>
References: <02ac01c6ce8a$932ce700$6601a8c0@KISTraders>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609020625k117c862evf8f69d0ff840dd79@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Gerald,

Sounds like your ScriptAlias is playing up.  Did this for me with vhosts too..
I would put everything, including your script alias inside your
vhost..  Then, it will not be fouled up by the default script index of
apache.

Mine is set up like this:

<VirtualHost>
*** all your normal vhost stuff for your server here ***
ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/
ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/mailman/ /usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/
<Directory /usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/>
   AllowOverride None
   Options ExecCGI
   Order allow,deny
   Allow from all
</Directory>
</VirtualHost>






On 02/09/06, Gerald Edwards <gerald at silvasolutions.net> wrote:
> I have installed Mailman 2 with Postfix 2.1.5 on Debian Sarge 3.2 running VirtualDomains on Apache2.
>
> After some trial and error, several remove and purge (start all over) It's up and delivering mail as it should.  Before I went to bed (in the wee hours of Friday morning) I ran a final check and tested the mass add of 3 users (3 of my email accounts at various servers).  All appeared to be working very nicely.  I even created two other mailing lists without incident.
>
> Friday morning (closer to noon) when I went to "show it off" the Administration portion fails to function.  It allows me to login but any action bounces back to the login screen and does not perform the requested function.  I have four mailing lists with Mailman as the primary list and all four behave the same way.  I have checked the cookies and they're setting fine.
>
> I did reboot the server before retiring and after performing the tests, so I'm sure that I've made an error or failed to save a change but can't figure out what I did wrong.  Any help or clue as to where to look would be most helpful.
>
> I've gone through the installation instructions several times and checked the various config files and all appear to be set correctly.
>
> I'm stumped and need a shove.
>
> Thanks
> Gerald
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/maltokyo%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Sep  2 15:58:52 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 06:58:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin Functions Failing
In-Reply-To: <02ac01c6ce8a$932ce700$6601a8c0@KISTraders>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609020658520656eacb7724@msapiro>

Gerald Edwards wrote:
>
>Friday morning (closer to noon) when I went to "show it off" the Administration portion fails to function.  It allows me to login but any action bounces back to the login screen and does not perform the requested function.  I have four mailing lists with Mailman as the primary list and all four behave the same way.  I have checked the cookies and they're setting fine.


FAQs 4.65 and/or 4.71 may help
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From rlandman at hlinstruments.com  Sat Sep  2 16:46:36 2006
From: rlandman at hlinstruments.com (Bob Landman)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 10:46:36 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
 but very slow delivery of posted mails
Message-ID: <905045FF-CAE9-46A0-8124-EF2179FB8D4B@hlinstruments.com>

If the ISP you are having delay problems with is AT&T you can forget about talking to them - they don't listen.  We recently had a very serious issue with AT&T as one of our consultants in Utah uses them via Quest DSL. He didn't see the problem but we did.  They delayed for a week, on average, every mail from another consultant in Florida who is on ISDN using Megapath.  I got both their mails just fine and from AT&T to Megapath was no problem but the reverse was.  We set up a relay forward through our mailserver but still we had problems so it seems that they were parsing the headers and rejecting mail from Megapath, perhaps as spam?  Whatever the reason, it was clearly deliberate.  They would not comment on the problem, would not solve it. 

In the end our Utah consultant had to get another ISP.  Megapath tried to reason with AT&T and got nowhere.

Bob Landman
H&L 




From barry at python.org  Sat Sep  2 20:47:32 2006
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 14:47:32 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RELEASED Mailman 2.1.9 release candidate 1
Message-ID: <243CCA3B-B7E9-42E4-9D67-A24E7AC91154@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On behalf of the Mailman development team, I'm happy to announce the  
release of Mailman 2.1.9 release candidate 1.  This is primarily a  
bug fix and security release, although it also contains two new  
languages: Arabic and Vietnamese.

This version is not yet recommended for production environments,  
however testing and feedback is greatly encouraged.  My plan is to  
release 2.1.9 final by 10-Sep-2006.  A more detailed list of changes  
will be included in the final release announcement.

Mailman 2.1.9rc1.tgz is available from SourceForge:

https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=103

Translators: If you have any language updates you'd like to see in  
2.1.9 final, please commit them now or send them to me.

Enjoy,
- -Barry

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Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin)

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A+azXWgaVY/C3L+HDneqFGBVZLXkKg+4IfxmKPALcEs88jHGzOpvlnuZEVzpyaon
bOYFooMqc3c=
=NWI4
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From jimpop at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 23:15:14 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 17:15:14 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RELEASED Mailman 2.1.9 release candidate 1
In-Reply-To: <243CCA3B-B7E9-42E4-9D67-A24E7AC91154@python.org>
References: <243CCA3B-B7E9-42E4-9D67-A24E7AC91154@python.org>
Message-ID: <44F9F462.1020904@yahoo.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Question:

How can a RC1 release be listed as "Stable"?

https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=103&release_id=444295

- -Jim P.

Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On behalf of the Mailman development team, I'm happy to announce the  
> release of Mailman 2.1.9 release candidate 1.  This is primarily a  
> bug fix and security release, although it also contains two new  
> languages: Arabic and Vietnamese.
> 
> This version is not yet recommended for production environments,  
> however testing and feedback is greatly encouraged.  My plan is to  
> release 2.1.9 final by 10-Sep-2006.  A more detailed list of changes  
> will be included in the final release announcement.
> 
> Mailman 2.1.9rc1.tgz is available from SourceForge:
> 
> https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=103
> 
> Translators: If you have any language updates you'd like to see in  
> 2.1.9 final, please commit them now or send them to me.
> 
> Enjoy,
> -Barry
> 
- ------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list
Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jimpop%40yahoo.com

Security Policy:
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp


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From dd-b at dd-b.net  Sun Sep  3 03:00:17 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 20:00:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609011251i6b299f5dge0b37fcaa62b24d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
	<PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>
	<34a783b20609011251i6b299f5dge0b37fcaa62b24d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609021800ycb7eee4yf5a88c70bd387018@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:
> On 9/1/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> > Mark Sapiro wrote:
> > >
> > >You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
> > >information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.
> >
> >
> > Or you can remove them from the templates before running bin/arch.
> >
> > templates/en/archtoc.html
> > templates/en/archtocnombox.html
> > templates/en/archidxhead.html
> > templates/en/archidxfoot.html
> >
> > assuming English.
>
> Hey, looking at those templates plus article.html, I can put in the
> CSS stuff I want right there; the code doesn't even have to be
> touched.

So, here's the sort of thing I meant.  This is the article.html
template, modified with a lot more structure and ID and CLASS tags.
With this I can do remarkable amounts of format control (to make it
match the appearance of an existing site) by providing a style sheet.

Now on to do the *other* templates to my satisfaction!

Ways in which this is not a drop-in replacement:

1.  Adds the list name to the page title line
2.  Requires that a style sheet file be put in the mailing list
archive directory for each list; and I haven't made the changes to
list creation to do that automatically.

It should be easy to create a style sheet that, except for #1, makes
the results look identical to the old templates, but I haven't done
that yet.

Anybody think this is worth working up more thoroughly and
contributing?  Or is it all going to be rolled over by other work
currently ongoing that will do all this in more in a more flexible
way?

!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
 <HEAD>
   <TITLE>%(listname)s: %(title)s
   </TITLE>
   <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" >
   <LINK REL="made"
HREF="mailto:%(email_url)s?Subject=%(subject_url)s;In-Reply-To=%(in_reply_to_\
url)s">
   <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow">
   <LINK REL="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="../liststyle.css" />
   <LINK REL="shortcut icon" href="../listfavicon.ico" />
   %(encoding)s
   %(prev)s
   %(next)s
 </HEAD>
 <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff">
   <DIV ID="wholepage">
     <DIV ID="artlisthead">%(listname)s</DIV>
     <DIV ID="pagebody">
       <H1 ID="arthead">%(subject_html)s</H1>
        <DIV ID="artsend">
          <DIV ID="artsender"><SPAN CLASS="artauthname">%(author_html)s</SPAN>
          <A HREF="mailto:%(email_url)s?Subject=%(subject_url)s;In-Reply-To=%(in_reply_to_url)s"
             TITLE="%(subject_html)s" class="artauthmailto">%(email_html)s
             </A></DIV>
          <DIV ID="artsendtime"><SPAN
CLASS="artdatestr">%(datestr_html)s</SPAN></DIV>
        </DIV>
        <DIV ID="artprenav">
          <DIV class="artnav"><UL CLASS="artnav">
              %(prev_wsubj)s
              %(next_wsubj)s
               <LI> <SPAN CLASS="artnavhd">Messages sorted by:</SPAN>
                    <a href="date.html#%(sequence)s">[ date ]</a>
                    <a href="thread.html#%(sequence)s">[ thread ]</a>
                    <a href="subject.html#%(sequence)s">[ subject ]</a>
                    <a href="author.html#%(sequence)s">[ author ]</a>
               </LI>
             </UL></DIV>
        </DIV>
        <HR ID="artabove">
        <DIV ID="artbody">
    <!--beginarticle-->
    %(body)s
    <!--endarticle-->
        </DIV>
        <HR ID="artbelow">
        <DIV ID="artpostnav">
          <DIV class="artnav"><UL CLASS="artnav">
              %(prev_wsubj)s
              %(next_wsubj)s
               <LI> <SPAN CLASS="artnavhd">Messages sorted by:</SPAN>
                    <a href="date.html#%(sequence)s">[ date ]</a>
                    <a href="thread.html#%(sequence)s">[ thread ]</a>
                    <a href="subject.html#%(sequence)s">[ subject ]</a>
                    <a href="author.html#%(sequence)s">[ author ]</a>
               </LI>
             </UL></DIV>
        </DIV>
    <hr ID="artbot">
    <DIV ID="artlistinfo"><a href="%(listurl)s">More information about
the %(listname)s
    mailing list</a></DIV>
  </DIV>
</DIV>
</body></html>

And here's a stylesheet to work with it:

/* Dragaera list style sheet, as modifications to default mail archive
style sheet. */
@import url(http://dev.dragaera.info/d2.css);
/* @impurt url(/mailmanarchive.css); */
/* Local overrides */
/* For now put everything here */

div#pagebody {
    margin: 25px;
}

div#artlisthead {
    position: relative;
    overflow: hidden;
    text-align: center;
    height: 64px;
    font-size: 260%;
    font-weight: 900;
    font-family: garamond, "times new roman", times, serif;
    background-color: black;
    background-image: url(http://dev.dragaera.info/images/imperialorb.jpg);
    background-repeat: no-repeat;
    background-position: top left;
    color: rgb(167,243,239);
}
span.artauthname {
  font-weight: bold;
}
span.artdatestr {
  font-style: italic;
}
span.artnavhd {
  font-weight: bold;
}
hr#artabove { display: none }
hr#artbelow { display: none }
h1#arthead:first-letter {
  font-size: 6ex;
  color: rgb(255,131,63) ;
}
div#artbody {
    border: rgb(255,131,63) solid thin;
    margin: 25px;
    padding: 15px;
}
div#artbody pre {
      font-family: "courier new" courier "lucida console" mono;
      display: block;
      overflow: auto;
}
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From ken at sunward.org  Sun Sep  3 06:16:00 2006
From: ken at sunward.org (Ken Winter)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 00:16:00 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] config_list doesn't copy the HTML forthe public
	HTML pages
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609011833370734c9049cc3@msapiro>
Message-ID: <003c01c6cf0f$aa48e1c0$6703a8c0@kenxp>

Thanks to Mark and others for getting me unstuck.  

All is well, except for one thing:  The config_list utility doesn't include
the "public HTML pages" (most importantly, the "General List Information
Page") as part of the configuration that it copies from one list to another.
This provokes three questions:

1. Is there some way to get config_list to do this?
2. Or is there some other utility that does it?
3. Or is there some easier way to do it that opening the "source" and
"target" lists in the administrator we sites and cutting-and-pasting the
HTML from one to the other?

~ TIA
~ Ken


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net]
    Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 9:34 PM
    To: Ken Winter
    Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
    
    Ken Winter wrote:
    
    >My host administrator says I have the privileges I need.  Indeed, I can
    get
    >to /usr/local/mailman/ through a SSH shell.  But, see, I'm more-or-less
    UNIX
    >/ LINUX ignorant, so I can't seem to get anything to happen from there.
    Can
    >you point me to some command line documentation that can get me through
    to
    >where I can do the stuff I need to do?
    
    cd /usr/local/mailman/
    
    >        1.	Delete an entire mailing list?
    
    bin/rmlist --help
    
    
    >        2.	Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
    >        different name but the same configuration?
    
    
    bin/config_list --help
    bin/newlist --help
    
    
    >        3.	Rename a list?
    
    
    See
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.070.htp>.
    
    Also see
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.009.htp>.
    
    --
    Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan





From jenny11223 at gmail.com  Sun Sep  3 10:13:30 2006
From: jenny11223 at gmail.com (jenny lee)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 12:13:30 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b25c8aa60609030113y481825daq485eddb701d96cf5@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Patrick Bogen <pdbogen at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/1/06, Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello, I am running mailman / postfix on Ubuntu 6.06 (using apt-get
> > latest standard versions)
> What MTA are you using?
>
> > I have everything working correctly, except that when people send
> > mails to the list, it takes on average one hour to send the mails out
> > to subscribers!!
> Is the slowdown in Mailman, or in your MTA? (Check your MTA's queues
> when you send, see if the messages are stuck there. Check Mailman's
> qfiles/out folder to see if they're stuck there. Check the 'post' and
> 'smtp' logs to see how big the actual delay is, for Mailman.
h>im jenny, im sorry, im didnt work nice, im quit..please.,forgive me.
Thank u very much. Have a nice day.
> --
> - Patrick Bogen
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jenny11223%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy:
> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>


From antennex at swbell.net  Sun Sep  3 15:06:45 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 06:06:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
Message-ID: <20060903130645.320.qmail@web82410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

In the admin, I set the the "obscure address" to NO, but addresses are still shown as:
   
  "amember at somewhere.com"
   
  Setting from YES to NO had no effect. Radio button NO is still set.
   
  I run a separate searchable archive where the whole address is munged with "xxxx"s, but now without the "@" regular format, the address is more exposed than before.
   
  Anyone else have this issue -- or solution?
   
  Thanks!


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From Jason at Weatherserver.net  Sun Sep  3 18:51:16 2006
From: Jason at Weatherserver.net (Jason [WeatherServer])
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 12:51:16 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
Message-ID: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation>

I know this isn't a postfix forum but if anyone will know it is this list.  Is there a way to setup postfix that if it cannot deliver the email itself it will relay it to another server for delivery.
--------------------------------------------
http://listserver.weatherserver.net
Weather Alerts, Traffic Alerts, Toronto Fire CAD Alerts
All to your email, 24/7/365
*****Visit us today*****

From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Sep  3 20:01:57 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 13:01:57 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
In-Reply-To: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation>
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation>
Message-ID: <p06240502c120c8d73b9a@[10.0.1.210]>

At 12:51 PM -0400 2006-09-03, Jason [WeatherServer] wrote:

>  I know this isn't a postfix forum

Correct.

>                                     but if anyone will know it is this
>  list.

Perhaps.

>         Is there a way to setup postfix that if it cannot deliver the
>  email itself it will relay it to another server for delivery.

Actually, this is a pure postfix question that has nothing to do with 
Mailman or mailing lists.  Try searching their documentation and 
their FAQ at postfix.org.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Sep  3 20:04:09 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 13:04:09 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060903130645.320.qmail@web82410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060903130645.320.qmail@web82410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240503c120c9315085@[10.0.1.210]>

At 6:06 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack Stone wrote:

>   I run a separate searchable archive where the whole address is munged
>  with "xxxx"s, but now without the "@" regular format, the address is
>  more exposed than before.

The archives are basically flat HTML files that are generated by 
Mailman when messages come in, or by periodic cron jobs.  Since 
they're flat HTML files, if you make a change like this you will need 
to go back and re-generate all the affected archives in order to make 
the change visible everywhere.  Did you do that?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From antennex at swbell.net  Sun Sep  3 20:36:06 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 11:36:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <p06240503c120c9315085@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060903183606.3913.qmail@web82411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:    At 6:06 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack Stone wrote:

> I run a separate searchable archive where the whole address is munged
> with "xxxx"s, but now without the "@" regular format, the address is
> more exposed than before.

The archives are basically flat HTML files that are generated by 
Mailman when messages come in, or by periodic cron jobs. Since 
they're flat HTML files, if you make a change like this you will need 
to go back and re-generate all the affected archives in order to make 
the change visible everywhere. Did you do that?

-- 
Brad Knowles, 


I just switched my mail list management from majordom to mailman within the past week. All of my archives prior to the day of the switch are "x"ed out.
   
  I'm not concerned about the few that mailman obscured, just wanted the normal address to appear on each message in the new archive files by mailman.
   
  My archiving program takes the mailman archive files (after the fact) and prepares the archives with any and all email addresses that appear in mailman's mbox or flat text archive files and generates the archives I have over 10,000 messages with the email obscured as:
  amember at somewhere.com to:
  amember at xxxxxxxxx.xxx
   
  whereas, mailman does this:
  amember at somewhere.com
   
  My old method of obscuring is much more obscured.
   
  So, why doesn't the change from YES to NO on the obscure not work?? That's all I need so the messages arrive in the mailman archive files with a whole original email address format.



(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Sep  3 20:55:16 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 13:55:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060903183606.3913.qmail@web82411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060903183606.3913.qmail@web82411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240504c120d53d2368@[10.0.1.210]>

At 11:36 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack Stone wrote:

>  So, why doesn't the change from YES to NO on the obscure not work??

Because you still need to regenerate the archives, which you 
apparently did not do.

IMO, better yet would to modify your post-processing script so that 
it understands both address formats, so that it doesn't matter how 
this particular option is set.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From bdf at deflorence.com  Sun Sep  3 21:29:27 2006
From: bdf at deflorence.com (BdF)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 20:29:27 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] French Accented Characters become "?"
Message-ID: <gwh.44fb2cea.cc0b.96b@lon-mail-1.gradwell.net>

Hi there,

We run a 400 user mailing list (www.lutecium.org) with Mailman 2.1.8-2, on
Linux (Debian) Kernel 2.6.16-2. The main language is French, but our users
also use English, Spanish and Portuguese.

Some of our subscribers have complained about receiving the list's emails
with ALL the French accented characters replaced by "?", which obviously
makes reading difficult, if not ambiguous. The charset used by the original
sender does not seem to matter (see examples below after my signature).
Further, they insist that this happens ONLY on emails received from our
discussion list.

I have performed the following test:

-email from me in both TXT and HTML (with French accented characters
???????) directly to user(s): no modifications.
-(same) email from me in both TXT and HTML (with French accented characters
???????)to the subscription list: user(s) receive it with all accented
characters replaced by "?".

Trawling the Mailman's archives, I have not found something referring
specifically to this issue, although I have seen emails from people having
problem with German and Japanese characters.

So:
-is this a known issue?
-If not, is it a user or a Mailman issue?
-If a user issue, does it take place on sending (when being composed) or on
receiving (when being read)?
-If a Mailman issue, what settings should be changed?

Cheers (from London) for all your good work
===
Bruno
www.deflorence.com
===


EXAMPLES OF MANGLED EMAILS AS RECEIVED BY USERS VIA OUR LIST
==========
EXAMPLE 1
==========
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:36:41 +0200
> From: Yann Leroux <yann.leroux at laposte.net>
> Subject: Re: [Lutecium-group] quelques notes de lecture sur 
> l'agressivit? en psychanalyse et son extension dans le champ du 
> politique
> To: Groupe de travail pour la psychanalyse lacanienne 
> <lutecium-group at lutecium.org>
> Message-ID: <44F2FF79.4080704 at laposte.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Ecoutez Catherine, vous ?tes fatigante a dire partout la meme chose : 
> la jouissance, la loi, le symbolique, les 
> mechants-psy-qui-vous-veulent-du-mal et cela serait coquasse si vous 
> ne vous ?tiez pas instaur? psychanalyste en six mois.

==========
EXAMPLE 2
==========
Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:04:54 +0200
> From: " roseli at infonie.fr " <roseli at infonie.fr>
> Subject: Re: [Lutecium-group] quartier Lacan
> To: " lutecium-group " <lutecium-group at lutecium.org>
> Message-ID: <J4R2G6$0E1CD64E1A2F05203DC585153ED34AE2 at aliceadsl.fr>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> voil? le site sur lequel j'ai obtenu les vid?os de Lacan ? Louvain.
> http://parolesdesjours.free.fr/lacan.htm
>
> utecium-group: Document interne au Groupe de Travail Lutecium.
> Ne doit pas etre diffuse hors du groupe.
> ---
> comme de juste, la premi?re partie vient apr?s la deuxi?me;) si 
> quelqu'un avait louvain en int?grale, je serais tr?s int?ress?

==========
EXAMPLE 3
==========
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:40:50 +0100
From: "BdF" <bdf at deflorence.com>
Subject: Re: [Lutecium-group] quartier Lacan
To: "'Groupe de travail pour la psychanalyse lacanienne'"
	<lutecium-group at lutecium.org>
Message-ID: <gwh.44f435ad.fa2b.a2 at lon-mail-3.gradwell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Ah, merci de cette indication Roseli, je m'occupe de les r?cup?rer et d'en
faire une int?grale.

D'autre part: si vous recevez un mail de Lutecium comportant des caract?res
bizarres, envoyer le moi (en FORWARD) par l'interm?diaire
Help-Me at lutecium.org.



From antennex at swbell.net  Sun Sep  3 23:54:51 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 14:54:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <p06240504c120d53d2368@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060903215451.12699.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:    At 11:36 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack Stone wrote:

> So, why doesn't the change from YES to NO on the obscure not work??

Because you still need to regenerate the archives, which you 
apparently did not do.

IMO, better yet would to modify your post-processing script so that 
it understands both address formats, so that it doesn't matter how 
this particular option is set.

-- 
Brad Knowles, 



  Brad: Sorry I'm so thick-headed, but didn't realize it wouldn'l just start feeding the archives with the new setting. So, I need to regenerate the archives for the setting to take effect as you have twice said.
   
  Since I'm just learning mailman, what would my line command & flags be to do that.
   
  Or, your second suggestion: "...to modify your post-processing script.... ", how would I modify the post-processing script -- so I don't screw it up?
   
  Thanks for your support on this one.


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From antennex at swbell.net  Mon Sep  4 00:11:49 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 15:11:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060903215451.12699.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060903221149.95416.qmail@web82402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



Jack Stone <antennex at swbell.net> wrote:    Brad Knowles 
wrote: At 11:36 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack Stone wrote:

IMO, better yet would to modify your post-processing script so that 
it understands both address formats, so that it doesn't matter how 
this particular option is set.

-- 
Brad Knowles, 

Sorry, I found how to regenerate the archives in the FAQ search.
   
  But, haven't found this one yet:
  Or, your second suggestion: "...to modify your post-processing script.... ", how would I modify the post-processing script -- so I don't screw it up?

Thanks for your support on this one.


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list
Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
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Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp




(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From antennex at swbell.net  Mon Sep  4 00:35:21 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 15:35:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060903221149.95416.qmail@web82402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060903223521.37869.qmail@web82407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



Jack Stone <antennex at swbell.net> wrote:    

Jack Stone wrote: Brad Knowles 
wrote: At 11:36 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack Stone wrote:

Did the regen of the archives and NADA  Just the same email format presented by mailman archives:
  amember at somewhere.com
   
  Now what.
   
  On the second suggestion:
  I'm a bit off wave today -- you meant modify MY script. I'd rather mailman do what it says when the knobs are reset.


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From maltokyo at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 02:43:45 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 09:43:45 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
In-Reply-To: <p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.210>
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation>
	<p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>

Answer:
In postfix config, add
relayhost = smtp.yoursmtphost.com

On 04/09/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 12:51 PM -0400 2006-09-03, Jason [WeatherServer] wrote:
>
> >  I know this isn't a postfix forum
>
> Correct.
>
> >                                     but if anyone will know it is this
> >  list.
>
> Perhaps.
>
> >         Is there a way to setup postfix that if it cannot deliver the
> >  email itself it will relay it to another server for delivery.
>
> Actually, this is a pure postfix question that has nothing to do with
> Mailman or mailing lists.  Try searching their documentation and
> their FAQ at postfix.org.
>
> --
> Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
>
> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
> temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
>
>     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
>     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
>
>  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/maltokyo%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>


From Jason at Weatherserver.net  Mon Sep  4 03:46:34 2006
From: Jason at Weatherserver.net (Jason [WeatherServer])
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 21:46:34 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation><p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.210>
	<aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c6cfc3$f4242660$1400000a@workstation>

Thank you for the reply. At least some people are able to answer questions 
rather then replying with more then just read the FAQ's
--------------------------------------------
http://listserver.weatherserver.net
Weather Alerts, Traffic Alerts, Toronto Fire CAD Alerts
All to your email, 24/7/365
*****Visit us today*****
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mal" <maltokyo at gmail.com>
To: <Mailman-Users at python.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question


Answer:
In postfix config, add
relayhost = smtp.yoursmtphost.com

On 04/09/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 12:51 PM -0400 2006-09-03, Jason [WeatherServer] wrote:
>
> >  I know this isn't a postfix forum
>
> Correct.
>
> >                                     but if anyone will know it is this
> >  list.
>
> Perhaps.
>
> >         Is there a way to setup postfix that if it cannot deliver the
> >  email itself it will relay it to another server for delivery.
>
> Actually, this is a pure postfix question that has nothing to do with
> Mailman or mailing lists.  Try searching their documentation and
> their FAQ at postfix.org.
>
> --
> Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
>
> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
> temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
>
>     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
>     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
>
>  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/maltokyo%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy: 
> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>
------------------------------------------------------
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Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
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Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jason%40weatherserver.net

Security Policy: 
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Sep  4 04:03:02 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 21:03:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation>
	<p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.210>
	<aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c12139a32dc3@[10.0.1.210]>

At 9:43 AM +0900 2006-09-04, Mal wrote:

>  In postfix config, add
>  relayhost = smtp.yoursmtphost.com

Actually, that does not achieve what the OP was asking for.  That 
would cause all e-mail to be routed through the given machine, and 
not just e-mail for which no obvious local user could be found.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Sep  4 04:04:30 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 21:04:30 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
In-Reply-To: <000b01c6cfc3$f4242660$1400000a@workstation>
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation><p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.
	210>	<aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
	<000b01c6cfc3$f4242660$1400000a@workstation>
Message-ID: <p06240501c12139d73a1e@[10.0.1.210]>

At 9:46 PM -0400 2006-09-03, Jason [WeatherServer] wrote:

>  Thank you for the reply. At least some people are able to answer questions
>  rather then replying with more then just read the FAQ's

Actually, Mal's reply doesn't help.  It would cause all e-mail to be 
routed through the given machine, as opposed to just the unknown 
local users.

I don't want to give you a wrong answer, so I want to make sure that 
you get the right answer from the correct sources.  Don't just 
believe anyone on this list, because that's not what this list is 
intended to support.


I'm sorry, sometimes the best answer really is to have you read the FAQ.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From tmz at pobox.com  Mon Sep  4 04:26:42 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 22:26:42 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
In-Reply-To: <000b01c6cfc3$f4242660$1400000a@workstation>
References: <aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
	<000b01c6cfc3$f4242660$1400000a@workstation>
Message-ID: <20060904022641.GG17277@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jason [WeatherServer] wrote:
> Thank you for the reply. At least some people are able to answer
> questions rather then replying with more then just read the FAQ's

You ask an off-topic question here and then you have the nerve to make
a remark like that directed at one of the more helpful people on the
list?  Wow.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Man was made at the end of the week's work when God was tired.
    -- Mark Twain

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From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Mon Sep  4 08:03:26 2006
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 08:03:26 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation>
	<p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.210>
	<aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060904060326.GF25568@charite.de>

* Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com>:
> Answer:
> In postfix config, add
> relayhost = smtp.yoursmtphost.com

No, I think he wants to look into "luser_relay"

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt (i.A. des IT-Zentrums)         Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de
Charite - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin            Tel.  +49 (0)30-450 570-155
Gemeinsame Einrichtung von FU- und HU-Berlin    Fax.  +49 (0)30-450 570-962
IT-Zentrum Standort CBF                 send no mail to spamtrap at charite.de


From maltokyo at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 08:52:49 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 15:52:49 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
In-Reply-To: <20060904060326.GF25568@charite.de>
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation>
	<p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.210>
	<aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060904060326.GF25568@charite.de>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609032352v65a6fdffv710c16ec273762f5@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for causing the fuss..  I thought he was looking for a solution
to send all mails out using an smtp server other than his own.  I will
take more care to properly read the requirment next time.


From Jason at Weatherserver.net  Mon Sep  4 10:03:17 2006
From: Jason at Weatherserver.net (Jason [WeatherServer])
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 04:03:17 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation><p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.210><aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com><20060904060326.GF25568@charite.de>
	<aeb5a27f0609032352v65a6fdffv710c16ec273762f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c6cff8$94932c70$1400000a@workstation>

I am looking for a way for postfix to send mail it cannot deliver to the 
outside world itself to another server on the lan.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mal" <maltokyo at gmail.com>
To: <Mailman-Users at python.org>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question


Sorry for causing the fuss..  I thought he was looking for a solution
to send all mails out using an smtp server other than his own.  I will
take more care to properly read the requirment next time.
------------------------------------------------------
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Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
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Unsubscribe: 
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Security Policy: 
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From maltokyo at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 10:10:28 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 17:10:28 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
In-Reply-To: <000c01c6cff8$94932c70$1400000a@workstation>
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation>
	<p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.210>
	<aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060904060326.GF25568@charite.de>
	<aeb5a27f0609032352v65a6fdffv710c16ec273762f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<000c01c6cff8$94932c70$1400000a@workstation>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609040110t34778497jf1cf2265a9c65f0f@mail.gmail.com>

In that case, I think my original reply is your solution.


From antennex at swbell.net  Mon Sep  4 16:04:37 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 07:04:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <p06240503c120c9315085@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060904140437.60156.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:    At 6:06 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack Stone wrote:

> I run a separate searchable archive where the whole address is munged
> with "xxxx"s, but now without the "@" regular format, the address is
> more exposed than before.

The archives are basically flat HTML files that are generated by 
Mailman when messages come in, or by periodic cron jobs. Since 
they're flat HTML files, if you make a change like this you will need 
to go back and re-generate all the affected archives in order to make 
the change visible everywhere. Did you do that?

-- 
Brad Knowles, 



Brad: I did what you advised but mailman does not adjust to the new setting of NO to not Obscure. Yes, I have regenerated the archives -- the ones that belong to mailman of course.
   
  I cannot modify the "post-prosessing script" because I use the program "Mhonarc" to generate the searchable version of my archives since Mailman does not include that feature. It has the nice feature of truly obscuring (completely) the email addresses much better than just
  amember at somewh.ere However, Mhonarc needs the regular email address to see it and convert to amember at xxxxxx.xx
   
  Those wishing to harvest emails can certainly run a script to put the Mailman Obsured method back to a full email -- I cannot tho.
   
  Is the obscure a buggy feature or do you have any other suggestions. I haven't seen any other answers in my search.
   
  I have watched Mailman mature for years before switching from majordomo. The only aspect keeping me from doing it was the messy archives that could not set the right dates of the message and showed dates far into the future.
   
  Too messy for a list with scientists, academics, engineers and the like who would be very picky about that.
   
  Please one more attempt to explain to me what to do & I'll go away -- happy as a "clam" if I get the right answer from anyone -- unless I'm the only one on this list with this problem.
   
  Thanks for tolerating me on this important issue (for us).
   
  See the tech mag that uses the list:
  http://www.antennex.com
   
  I am the publisher, but a mediocre Sys Adm.



(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From drew.tenenholz at isid.org  Mon Sep  4 16:05:25 2006
From: drew.tenenholz at isid.org (Drew Tenenholz)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 10:05:25 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Date for Posts - How is it decided?
Message-ID: <v04220805c121e183f050@[192.168.209.100]>

Folks --

What is the 'official' date for a post?  I am the admin for a small, 
moderated where the following seems to be happening:

1) The daily digest lists several posts from yesterday/early toady 
and has a delivery date of 'today'.
2) The message archive can be used to show the exact day the message 
was posted (today or yesterday).
3) Individual posts are being received with delivery dates exactly 
ONE MONTH in the FUTURE!

Is this a Mailman setting, or is could it be the moderator has set 
their clock incorrectly set?

Thanks in Advance,
Drew Tenenholz


From kwz-mm at commpartners.com  Mon Sep  4 17:24:26 2006
From: kwz-mm at commpartners.com (Karl Zander)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 11:24:26 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060904140437.60156.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060904140437.60156.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <web-3225508@commpartners.com>

On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 07:04:37 -0700 (PDT)
  Jack Stone <antennex at swbell.net> wrote:
> 

>   
>  I cannot modify the "post-prosessing script" because I 
>use the program "Mhonarc" to generate the searchable 
>version of my archives since Mailman does not include 
>that feature. It has the nice feature of truly obscuring 
>(completely) the email addresses much better than just
>  amember at somewh.ere However, Mhonarc needs the 
>regular email address to see it and convert to 
>amember at xxxxxx.xx

[snip]


>  Please one more attempt to explain to me what to do & 
>I'll go away -- happy as a "clam" if I get the right 
>answer from anyone -- unless I'm the only one on this 
>list with this problem.
>

I think what you are asking is specific to MHonArc. 
 Mailman only calls MHonArc as an external archiver and 
then Mailman assumes that external archiver knows what it 
is doing.

I believe what you are looking for is called "SPAMMODE" in 
MHonArc.

"SPAMMODE determines if MHonArc will perform actions to 
deter spam address harvesters. If SPAMMODE is true, it 
changes the default values of various resources that 
display email addresses."

I don't know the specifics of enabling this in MHonArc as 
I have just started looking at this myself.  You will want 
to take a look at the MHonArc site for specifics, 
www.mhonarc.org

--Karl


From antennex at swbell.net  Mon Sep  4 18:47:54 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 09:47:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <web-3225508@commpartners.com>
Message-ID: <20060904164754.30689.qmail@web82412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



Karl Zander <kwz-mm at commpartners.com> wrote:    On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 07:04:37 -0700 (PDT)
Jack Stone wrote:
> 

> 
> I cannot modify the "post-prosessing script" because I 
>use the program "Mhonarc" to generate the searchable 
>version of my archives since Mailman does not include 
>that feature. It has the nice feature of truly obscuring 
>(completely) the email addresses much better than just
> amember at somewh.ere However, Mhonarc needs the 
>regular email address to see it and convert to 
>amember at xxxxxx.xx

[snip]


> Please one more attempt to explain to me what to do & 
>I'll go away -- happy as a "clam" if I get the right 
>answer from anyone -- unless I'm the only one on this 
>list with this problem.
>

I think what you are asking is specific to MHonArc. 
Mailman only calls MHonArc as an external archiver and 
then Mailman assumes that external archiver knows what it 
is doing.

I believe what you are looking for is called "SPAMMODE" in 
MHonArc.

"SPAMMODE determines if MHonArc will perform actions to 
deter spam address harvesters. If SPAMMODE is true, it 
changes the default values of various resources that 
display email addresses."

I don't know the specifics of enabling this in MHonArc as 
I have just started looking at this myself. You will want 
to take a look at the MHonArc site for specifics, 
www.mhonarc.org

--Karl
   
  Karl, you missed the point. Sorry I'm just not being clear enough. I do not have Mailman calling MhonArc. I just want Mailman to do want it is told to do first and all would be fine. I do use SPAMMODE on MHonArc to obtain the "xxxx"es to obliterate the email addresses AFTER Mailman has generated the archives. Mailman doe not depend on MHonArch, but MHonArch's SPAMMODE depends on the output files of Mailman. I cannot get the Mailman knob to NOT Obscure to do that. It just keeps obscuring no matter what I do.
   
  If I run MHonArc on the Mailman mylist.mbox, which contains the email addresses in full, then it works. Alas tho, the archive mylist.mbox doesn't split the months as does the "mylist-month.txt" So, I switched over to using the "txt" archive to feed MHonArc and then discovered the new problem of the Mailman's method of obscuring the addresses which now defeats MHonArch. I am very familiar with use of MHonArch.
   
  Any other thoughts....???




(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Sep  4 19:42:55 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 12:42:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Date for Posts - How is it decided?
In-Reply-To: <v04220805c121e183f050@[192.168.209.100]>
References: <v04220805c121e183f050@[192.168.209.100]>
Message-ID: <p06240505c12214dab718@[10.0.1.210]>

At 10:05 AM -0400 2006-09-04, Drew Tenenholz wrote:

>  What is the 'official' date for a post?

Normally, the official date for a message in the archives is taken 
from the "Date:" header which is put on the message by the sending 
mail client (MUA) or the first mail server (MTA) to touch the 
message.  The Internet standards require that the "Date:" header be 
present on all messages, but some clients do not create them. 
Therefore, most mail servers will automatically add one if it is not 
already present.

The problem is that many clients have system dates that are seriously 
screwed up.  They should be running the Network Time Protocol (NTP), 
but most of them don't even bother to do any kind of monitoring or 
setting of the date information.

Now, recent versions of Mailman have a way to deal with this issue -- 
see FAQ 3.63.  However, this does require a change in the mm_cfg.py 
file, which has to be done by the site admin.  If you are using a 
hosted list service, you may not be able to get support from the site 
admin to perform functions like this -- see FAQ 1.32.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Sep  4 19:50:18 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 12:50:18 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060904140437.60156.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060904140437.60156.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240506c122162604f4@[10.0.1.210]>

At 7:04 AM -0700 2006-09-04, Jack Stone wrote:

>  Brad: I did what you advised but mailman does not adjust to the new setting
>  of NO to not Obscure. Yes, I have regenerated the archives -- the ones
>  that belong to mailman of course.

Hmm.  In which case, I'm not sure I've got any answers for you. 
There seems to be some sort of disconnect between the Mailman archive 
generation process and your custom third-party process, and the 
techniques that have worked on every other Mailman server that I have 
ever encountered do not appear to work on your machine.

Perhaps someone else will be able to provide some insight.

>  Is the obscure a buggy feature or do you have any other suggestions. I
>  haven't seen any other answers in my search.

The Mailman method of obscuring addresses has always worked as 
described, in all installations I have ever encountered or heard of. 
I have never heard of anyone having the kinds of problems you are 
seeing, but then it sounds like you're tying these processes together 
in a non-standard way, and I'm afraid that I will not be able to 
provide any further assistance.

>  I have watched Mailman mature for years before switching from majordomo.
>  The only aspect keeping me from doing it was the messy archives that
>  could not set the right dates of the message and showed dates far into
>  the future.

That sounds like a problem that was resolved a while back.  See FAQ 3.63.

>  Please one more attempt to explain to me what to do & I'll go away --
>  happy as a "clam" if I get the right answer from anyone -- unless I'm
>  the only one on this list with this problem.

You're the only one who's ever reported this problem, so far as I 
know.  All the other sites that use MHonArc have tied that in through 
the standard Mailman third-party archive mechanism, and I have not 
heard of anyone having these kinds of problems with that technique.

Nor have I heard of anyone using the standard third-party archive 
mechanism wanting or needing to change the value of the Mailman 
address obscuration feature, because that is implemented in the 
Pipermail archive system within Mailman, and that is by-passed when 
you go through the third-party archive system.

So, I'm not sure that anyone is going to be able to help you, but we 
can always hope.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dan at music.memphis.edu  Mon Sep  4 21:06:43 2006
From: dan at music.memphis.edu (Dan Phillips)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 14:06:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <p06240506c122162604f4@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <20060904140437.60156.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<p06240506c122162604f4@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <D23A918B-B784-449B-8226-E4C9FEE86B63@music.memphis.edu>


On Sep 4, 2006, at 12:50 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> The Mailman method of obscuring addresses has always worked as
> described, in all installations I have ever encountered or heard of.

Remember, what he's trying to do is to get pipermail NOT to obscure  
the addresses. This is completely unrelated to how the resulting  
files are used or what further processing is done on them.

Here's the setting:

> obscure_addresses (privacy): Show member addresses so they're not  
> directly recognizable as email addresses?
> Setting this option causes member email addresses to be transformed  
> when they are presented on list web pages (both in text and as  
> links), so they're not trivially recognizable as email addresses.  
> The intention is to prevent the addresses from being snarfed up by  
> automated web scanners for use by spammers.


Just out of curiosity, I tried the same thing. I confirmed that the  
list.mbox did indeed contain the complete, whole, unadulterated  
addresses, set privacy options-->obscure_addresses to NO, then ran  
bin/arch --wipe on a small test list. The newly created year- 
month.txt files did still include the standard "xxx at xxx" obscured  
email addresses.

Maybe we're just trying the wrong setting; is the obscured address a  
pipermail constant? Is there some other setting that controls this?

Dan

====================
Dan Phillips
Associate Professor
Rudi E. Scheidt School of Music
University of Memphis
dan at music.memphis.edu





From osers4 at verizon.net  Mon Sep  4 23:35:00 2006
From: osers4 at verizon.net (Ralph Oser)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 21:35:00 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Consolidated Admin of Multiple MM lists?
Message-ID: <0J5300MXQ81X55BD@vms040.mailsrvcs.net>

Happy Labor Day - 

Is it possible to tweak the individual settings on our 60+ MM lists at one time?  Our site runs cPanel to provide us admin access to all our website functions, including access to individual MM lists via each lists admin panel.  It sure would be nice not to have to log into each list and make the changes one..by...one.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

R

Ralph C. Oser
Secretary
Alumni & Friends of Yorktown
     High School, Inc.
admin at yorktownalums.org

Serving the extended  Yorktown community since 1996.

From antennex at swbell.net  Tue Sep  5 00:16:32 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 15:16:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <D23A918B-B784-449B-8226-E4C9FEE86B63@music.memphis.edu>
Message-ID: <20060904221632.56237.qmail@web82412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



Dan Phillips <dan at music.memphis.edu> wrote:    
On Sep 4, 2006, at 12:50 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> The Mailman method of obscuring addresses has always worked as
> described, in all installations I have ever encountered or heard of.

Remember, what he's trying to do is to get pipermail NOT to obscure 
the addresses. This is completely unrelated to how the resulting 
files are used or what further processing is done on them.

Dan: THANK YOU so much for going to the trouble of reproducing the problem! I thought I was losing my mind or encapable of explaining the problem.
   
  If it is a bug, hope the maintainer is listening to include a fix in the upcoming new version.....???


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 01:07:04 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 18:07:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <D23A918B-B784-449B-8226-E4C9FEE86B63@music.memphis.edu>
References: <20060904140437.60156.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<p06240506c122162604f4@[10.0.1.210]>
	<D23A918B-B784-449B-8226-E4C9FEE86B63@music.memphis.edu>
Message-ID: <p06240507c122604f282c@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:06 PM -0500 2006-09-04, Dan Phillips wrote:

>  Remember, what he's trying to do is to get pipermail NOT to obscure
>  the addresses. This is completely unrelated to how the resulting
>  files are used or what further processing is done on them.

I understand.  The problem is that the standard method of using a 
third-party archive solution should eliminate Pipermail from the 
picture altogether, and instead replace it with the third-party 
alternative.  I have never before heard of anyone taking the output 
from Pipermail and then putting that into a third-party archive tool 
-- that would be like taking the output from sendmail and then piping 
that through postfix, and clearly redundant.

I think maybe the OP may want to review the recommended method of 
using an external archiving tool like MHonArc with Mailman, such as 
described in FAQ 4.4.

>  Maybe we're just trying the wrong setting; is the obscured address a
>  pipermail constant? Is there some other setting that controls this?

Did you look at your mm_cfg.py to see what the setting was for 
ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS?  Here's the comment from Defaults.py 
for Mailman 2.1.5, if you did not over-ride this setting:

# Pipermail archives contain the raw email addresses of the posting authors.
# Some view this as a goldmine for spam harvesters.  Set this to Yes to
# moderately obscure email addresses, but note that this breaks mailto: URLs
# in the archives too.
ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS = Yes

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 01:09:03 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 18:09:03 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Consolidated Admin of Multiple MM lists?
In-Reply-To: <0J5300MXQ81X55BD@vms040.mailsrvcs.net>
References: <0J5300MXQ81X55BD@vms040.mailsrvcs.net>
Message-ID: <p06240508c122621f9507@[10.0.1.210]>

At 9:35 PM +0000 2006-09-04, Ralph Oser wrote:

>  Is it possible to tweak the individual settings on our 60+ MM lists at
>  one time?

You could use a "withlist" Python script.  That is, assuming you (as 
site admin) have privileged command-line access to the server where 
Mailman is installed.

>             Our site runs cPanel to provide us admin access to all our
>  website functions, including access to individual MM lists via each
>  lists admin panel.  It sure would be nice not to have to log into each
>  list and make the changes one..by...one.

See FAQs 1.32 and 6.11.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From antennex at swbell.net  Tue Sep  5 04:06:00 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:06:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <p06240507c122604f282c@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060905020600.3299.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:     At 2:06 PM -0500 2006-09-04, Dan Phillips wrote:

> Remember, what he's trying to do is to get pipermail NOT to obscure
> the addresses. This is completely unrelated to how the resulting
> files are used or what further processing is done on them.

  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand. The problem is that the standard method of using a 
third-party archive solution should eliminate Pipermail from the 
picture altogether, and instead replace it with the third-party 
alternative. I have never before heard of anyone taking the output 
from Pipermail and then putting that into a third-party archive tool 
-- that would be like taking the output from sendmail and then piping 
that through postfix, and clearly redundant.

I think maybe the OP may want to review the recommended method of 
using an external archiving tool like MHonArc with Mailman, such as 
described in FAQ 4.4.
Brad Knowles,
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   
  Considering I have only switched from majordomo (used since 1997) on several lists a week+ ago, I just had not found all of the knobs yet -- nor did I even know what knobs I would need to twist yet to provide the archives needed. All other things are running great and I'm glad I made the switch finally.
   
  Adding "ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS = No"
  to mm_cfg.py did the trick and now have the solution.
   
  I looked at FAQ 4.4 and the method described there using an external archiving tool like MHonArc with Mailman methinks is a monster compared to my manner of cron-run scripts that updates my custom archives every 15 minutes to display the added messages. My need for a "fix" was minor IF I had just know where to look.
   
  Next, I'm just looking for a knob to drop the "display" of the archives in Mailman's web site and have members continue to use only the one they have been used to for several years -- and is not available for email harvesting. I still want to keep generating the mylist.txt because my scripts use that monthly file. Just don't want it to appear anywhere to the members or one that would join to mis-use it for spam lists.
   
  Would be nicer, it seems if Mailman "X"ed out the email addresses as well rather than the present "obscuring". I can imagine it would be little effort for spammers to download the Mailman archives and then run a script to return the emails from "xyz at adomain.com" right back to xyz at adomain.com. All the info is there gieving a false sense of security. xyz at xxxxxx.xx seems a lot safer to me.

  Anyway, truly appreciate the help from you Brad and especially Dan who understood my issue.
   
  I'll spend more time in the Defaults.py looking at more knobs there.
  



(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com  Tue Sep  5 05:39:28 2006
From: spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com (Spyro Polymiadis)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 13:09:28 +0930
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "bug" found when clicking sender filter privacy
	option
Message-ID: <44FCF170.7080000@kromestudios.com>

Hi All, apologies in advanced for the length of this post.... I have hit 
a "bug" when clicking on the sender filter privacy option... Would 
anyone be able to decipher the traceback and suggest what might be the 
problem and/or where I may be able to resolve it.. (mailman v 2.1.5)

Thanks :)
Spyro


--Trace back from /var/log/mailman/error--

Sep 05 13:35:21 2006 admin(13171): 
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
admin(13171): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.5 -----]
admin(13171): [----- Traceback ------]
admin(13171): Traceback (most recent call last):
admin(13171):   File "/var/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 110, in 
run_main
admin(13171):     main()
admin(13171):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 198, 
in main
admin(13171):     show_results(mlist, doc, category, subcat, cgidata)
admin(13171):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 522, 
in show_results
admin(13171):     form.AddItem(show_variables(mlist, category, subcat, 
cgidata, doc))
admin(13171):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 571, 
in show_variables
admin(13171):     add_options_table_item(mlist, category, subcat, table, 
item)
admin(13171):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 586, 
in add_options_table_item
admin(13171):     val = get_item_gui_value(mlist, category, kind, 
varname, params, extra)
admin(13171):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 625, 
in get_item_gui_value
admin(13171):     value = getattr(mlist, varname)
admin(13171):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 144, 
in __getattr__
admin(13171):     raise AttributeError, name
admin(13171): AttributeError: nonmember_rejection_notice
admin(13171): [----- Python Information -----]
admin(13171): sys.version     =   2.3.5 (#2, Sep  4 2005, 22:01:42)
[GCC 3.3.5 (Debian 1:3.3.5-13)]
admin(13171): sys.executable  =   /usr/bin/python
admin(13171): sys.prefix      =   /usr
admin(13171): sys.exec_prefix =   /usr
admin(13171): sys.path        =   /usr
admin(13171): sys.platform    =   linux2
admin(13171): [----- Environment Variables -----]
admin(13171):   HTTP_COOKIE: 
spyro+admin=28020000006948f0fc44732800000065656362343935333231383231653464316531653035386437623761653663356161366565373434
admin(13171):   SERVER_SOFTWARE: Apache/2.0.54 (Debian GNU/Linux) 
mod_python/3.1.3 Python/2.3.5 PHP/4.3.10-16 mod_perl/1.999.21 Perl/v5.8.4
admin(13171):   SCRIPT_NAME: /cgi-bin/mailman/admin
admin(13171):   SERVER_SIGNATURE: <address>Apache/2.0.54 (Debian 
GNU/Linux) mod_python/3.1.3 Python/2.3.5 PHP/4.3.10-16 mod_perl/1.999.21 
Perl/v5.8.4 Server at mail.domain.com Port 80</address>
admin(13171):
admin(13171):   REQUEST_METHOD: GET
admin(13171):   HTTP_KEEP_ALIVE: 300
admin(13171):   SERVER_PROTOCOL: HTTP/1.1
admin(13171):   QUERY_STRING:
admin(13171):   HTTP_ACCEPT_CHARSET: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7
admin(13171):   HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 
5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.0.6) Gecko/20060728 Firefox/1.5.0.6
admin(13171):   HTTP_CONNECTION: keep-alive
admin(13171):   HTTP_REFERER: 
http://mail.domain.com/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/listname/privacy
admin(13171):   SERVER_NAME: mail.domain.com
admin(13171):   REMOTE_ADDR: 192.168.99.120
admin(13171):   PATH_TRANSLATED: /var/www/listname/privacy/sender
admin(13171):   SERVER_PORT: 80
admin(13171):   SERVER_ADDR: 192.168.99.201
admin(13171):   DOCUMENT_ROOT: /var/www/
admin(13171):   PYTHONPATH: /var/lib/mailman
admin(13171):   SCRIPT_FILENAME: /usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/admin
admin(13171):   SERVER_ADMIN: webmaster at localhost
admin(13171):   HTTP_HOST: mail.domain.com
admin(13171):   REQUEST_URI: /cgi-bin/mailman/admin/listname/privacy/sender
admin(13171):   HTTP_ACCEPT: 
text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5
admin(13171):   GATEWAY_INTERFACE: CGI/1.1
admin(13171):   REMOTE_PORT: 3564
admin(13171):   HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE: en-us,en;q=0.5
admin(13171):   HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING: gzip,deflate
admin(13171):   PATH_INFO: /listname/privacy/sender



This message and its attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information. This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you may not copy or deliver this message or its attachments to anyone. Rather, you should permanently delete this message and its attachments and kindly notify the sender by reply e-mail. Any content of this message and its attachments, which does not relate to the official business of the sending company must be taken not to have been sent or endorsed by the sending company or any of its related entities. No warranty is made that the e-mail or attachment(s) are free from computer virus or other defect.



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 13:14:22 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 06:14:22 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060905020600.3299.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060905020600.3299.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c1230b363629@[10.0.1.210]>

At 7:06 PM -0700 2006-09-04, Jack Stone wrote:

>  I looked at FAQ 4.4 and the method described there using an external
>  archiving tool like MHonArc with Mailman methinks is a monster [...]

It's not as clean as we would like, no.  That is an area we are 
hoping to improve upon for future releases.

>                                                           [...] compared
>  to my manner of cron-run scripts that updates my custom archives every
>  15 minutes to display the added messages. My need for a "fix" was minor
>  IF I had just know where to look.

Therein lies the key.  I'm not sure what documentation you have or 
have not read, and which FAQ entries you have or have not seen, but 
the documentation should have made reference to the mm_cfg.py file 
and the fact that you should look through the Defaults.py file to see 
what options you may want to change, etc....

If you can tell us what parts of the documentation are not clear, we 
will try to get those fixed.

>  Next, I'm just looking for a knob to drop the "display" of the archives
>  in Mailman's web site and have members continue to use only the one they
>  have been used to for several years -- and is not available for email
>  harvesting.

I'm not clear on what you're asking for.  Could you elaborate?

>               I still want to keep generating the mylist.txt because my
>  scripts use that monthly file. Just don't want it to appear anywhere to
>  the members or one that would join to mis-use it for spam lists.

If you search the FAQ for "archive", you might find some relevant information.

>  Would be nicer, it seems if Mailman "X"ed out the email addresses as
>  well rather than the present "obscuring".

That's another area of improvement that we have planned for future versions.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From antennex at swbell.net  Tue Sep  5 14:56:17 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 05:56:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <p06240500c1230b363629@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:    At 7:06 PM -0700 2006-09-04, Jack Stone wrote:

> I looked at FAQ 4.4 and the method described there using an external
> archiving tool like MHonArc with Mailman methinks is a monster [...]

It's not as clean as we would like, no. That is an area we are 
hoping to improve upon for future releases.
   
  <JLS> Needless for me to say, Mailman is a great system and everything cannot be done at once. Actually, I have found Mailman a lot easier to *install* than majordomo. MM worked right out of the box, but MJD can be a pain about permissions and configuring as matured as it is. I helped work up a separate installer script (including for vhosts) that made it much more of a breeze.

> [...] compared
> to my manner of cron-run scripts that updates my custom archives every
> 15 minutes to display the added messages. My need for a "fix" was minor
> IF I had just know where to look.

Therein lies the key. I'm not sure what documentation you have or 
have not read, and which FAQ entries you have or have not seen, but 
the documentation should have made reference to the mm_cfg.py file 
and the fact that you should look through the Defaults.py file to see 
what options you may want to change, etc....

If you can tell us what parts of the documentation are not clear, we 
will try to get those fixed.
   
  <JLS> Actually, because of the time crunch, I just hadn't had time to read everything although I did quickly scan the FAQ and thoroughly man pages. I tested of course on a test list until I thought I had everything working to move over to a production list. My main concern was not to interupt the list.
   
  The knob in the web site configs about changing from YES to NO had me distracted thinking it was the place to change my setting for this preference. I can tell from Dan's last post, he is also still confused about what that does there. That web knob caused me to be distracted from looking more thoroughly in other places -- like the Defaults.py -- even though I had looked at some things there -- but just for other things at the time -- like the vhost designation -- which I fixed by using the CLI "newlist" command.
   
  Basically, I had to discover which things were better to use the CLI or the web configs. In my experience, I found to create the newlist from CLI and then go to the net list's web site and configure things -- except of course, the archive issue on obscuring. It's real purpose is still a mystery to me as I didn't observe any change on anything bu switching from YES to NO.

> Next, I'm just looking for a knob to drop the "display" of the archives
> in Mailman's web site and have members continue to use only the one they
> have been used to for several years -- and is not available for email
> harvesting.

I'm not clear on what you're asking for. Could you elaborate?
   
  <JLS> Now that I have successfully changed the obscuring to non-obscuring, the Mailman archive now shows the email addresses which would be available to any spammer that took the time to join -- my site is especially at risk now that I even ID'ed the domain during this thread. My fault in doing that. It would be a simple matter for a spammer to download the compressed archives and then run them through an email extraction script. As I opined before, even the obsured used now in Mailman archives would not be safe if a spammer used a special script of the downloaded archive files to convert the "xyz at adomain.net" I couldn't do it, but a good script guy could, I imagine.
   
  So, I just need to disable access to the Mailman version of the archive which I consider vulnerable to harvesting in its present form. Plus, I don't need it with my own archives available and they are safe.

> I still want to keep generating the mylist.txt because my
> scripts use that monthly file. Just don't want it to appear anywhere to
> the members or one that would join to mis-use it for spam lists.

If you search the FAQ for "archive", you might find some relevant information.
   
  <JLS> Plan to do more of that now I have time.

> Would be nicer, it seems if Mailman "X"ed out the email addresses as
> well rather than the present "obscuring".

That's another area of improvement that we have planned for future versions.

  <JLS> Just makes a great product all the better!! Keep up the good work and many thanks for the help on my one important issue here. Didn't realize this hadn't come up before.
  
As I said before, I have watched MM mature for several years and even installed it once a couple of years ago (2 or 3) -- but didn't think it was ready until now. Many things have been fixed.improved since then.
   
  BTW: One other thing & not meaning to be nit picky, but are you aware that FBSD ports show this program as containing numerous vulnerabilities?
   
  Here's what the portaudit sez, just FYI:
  Affected package: mailman-2.1.8_3
Type of problem: mailman -- Multiple Vulnerabilities.
Reference: <http://www.FreeBSD.org/ports/portaudit/fffa9257-3c17-11db-86ab-00123ffe8333.html>


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From R.Bannocks at nhm.ac.uk  Tue Sep  5 16:54:43 2006
From: R.Bannocks at nhm.ac.uk (Robert Bannocks)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:54:43 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restricting list owner's admin rights
Message-ID: <82A8FC2BA38D7F46998355F69C861BAFBFDAF0@FRANK.nhm.ac.uk>

Is it possible to restrict the options that list owners can set.  In
particular I want to stop list administrator

For all lists from setting up USENET news gateway-ing and stop some but
not all list administrators from archiving messages.

Regards




From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 17:30:32 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:30:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>

At least on Mailman 2.1.6, something about how the page where you
enter the administrative password is designed prevents Firefox from
remembering that password for me.  It's extremely annoying, I have to
go look that one up in Passwordsafe each time I use it, which is
nearly daily.  Anybody have any ideas?


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 17:42:34 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:42:34 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c1234a2d1618@[10.0.1.210]>

At 5:56 AM -0700 2006-09-05, Jack Stone wrote:

>  The knob in the web site configs about changing from YES to NO had
>  me distracted thinking it was the place to change my setting for
>  this preference.

Yeah, I'm confused too.  I'm hoping that one of the core Mailman 
developers will respond to this thread and tell me what it is that 
I've missed.

>  So, I just need to disable access to the Mailman version of the archive
>  which I consider vulnerable to harvesting in its present form. Plus, I
>  don't need it with my own archives available and they are safe.

See FAQ 3.3, and scroll down to the bottom.

>  BTW: One other thing & not meaning to be nit picky, but are you aware
>  that FBSD ports show this program as containing numerous vulnerabilities?

I was not personally aware of this issue, but apparently the Mailman 
developers are.

>  Reference: 
><http://www.FreeBSD.org/ports/portaudit/fffa9257-3c17-11db-86ab-00123ffe8333.html>

This page links to some others, including 
<http://secunia.com/advisories/21732/>, which includes the text:

	Solution:
	The vulnerabilities have been fixed in version 2.1.9rc1 and will
	also be fixed in the upcoming 2.1.9 version soon.

Note that the Mailman developers have already upgraded us to 2.1.9rc1 
for all our lists hosted on python.org, including this one.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 17:48:07 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:48:07 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restricting list owner's admin rights
In-Reply-To: <82A8FC2BA38D7F46998355F69C861BAFBFDAF0@FRANK.nhm.ac.uk>
References: <82A8FC2BA38D7F46998355F69C861BAFBFDAF0@FRANK.nhm.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <p06240500c1234c531e19@[10.0.1.210]>

At 3:54 PM +0100 2006-09-05, Robert Bannocks wrote:

>  Is it possible to restrict the options that list owners can set.

To a limited degree, yes.  See Defaults.py and FAQ 1.32.

>  In particular I want to stop list administrator
>  For all lists from setting up USENET news gateway-ing and stop some but
>  not all list administrators from archiving messages.

I don't believe that this is possible, but you could always try it 
and let us know how it works out for you.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 17:51:39 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:51:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure
 addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240501c1234cbb3677@[10.0.1.210]>

At 10:30 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>  At least on Mailman 2.1.6, something about how the page where you
>  enter the administrative password is designed prevents Firefox from
>  remembering that password for me.  It's extremely annoying, I have to
>  go look that one up in Passwordsafe each time I use it, which is
>  nearly daily.  Anybody have any ideas?

First off, please don't hijack existing threads and leave the subject 
line the same.  If you have a new topic, please create a new message 
with a new subject.

Secondly, your wording of this question suggests that you have not 
yet searched the FAQ or the archives before posting -- see FAQ 1.22.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 18:17:48 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 11:17:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 10:30 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> >  At least on Mailman 2.1.6, something about how the page where you
> >  enter the administrative password is designed prevents Firefox from
> >  remembering that password for me.  It's extremely annoying, I have to
> >  go look that one up in Passwordsafe each time I use it, which is
> >  nearly daily.  Anybody have any ideas?
>
> First off, please don't hijack existing threads and leave the subject
> line the same.  If you have a new topic, please create a new message
> with a new subject.

Sorry about this ending up attached to the thread.  I don't see how it
did, and it wasn't my intention.


> Secondly, your wording of this question suggests that you have not
> yet searched the FAQ or the archives before posting -- see FAQ 1.22.

I can find nothing in the FAQ relating to this.  However, the copy of
the FAQ I have found doesn't have numbers (list.org, documentation,
FAQ), so I'm not sure I've looked at the exact item you think
addresses it.  Where is this FAQ 1.22?
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Tue Sep  5 18:28:29 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 09:28:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
 Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060905092019.03643b08@crimson-dragon.com>

David Dyer-Bennet sent the message below at 09:17 9/5/2006:
>On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> > At 10:30 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> >
> > >  At least on Mailman 2.1.6, something about how the page where you
> > >  enter the administrative password is designed prevents Firefox from
> > >  remembering that password for me.  It's extremely annoying, I have to
> > >  go look that one up in Passwordsafe each time I use it, which is
> > >  nearly daily.  Anybody have any ideas?
> >
> > First off, please don't hijack existing threads and leave the subject
> > line the same.  If you have a new topic, please create a new message
> > with a new subject.
>
>Sorry about this ending up attached to the thread.  I don't see how it
>did, and it wasn't my intention.

It is very likely that you simply hit Reply in your MUA which 
included the In-Reply-To: and/or References: header(s) in the e-mail. 
These are the headers that allow MUAs to do threading and are also 
used by Pipermail (Mailman's default archiver) to thread the messages 
in the archives.

By just hitting Reply, you have attached the message to a particular 
thread which has no relevance to your question. By not changing the 
subject line, you have also not indicated anything about the actual 
subject of your inquiry.


> > Secondly, your wording of this question suggests that you have not
> > yet searched the FAQ or the archives before posting -- see FAQ 1.22.
>
>I can find nothing in the FAQ relating to this.  However, the copy of
>the FAQ I have found doesn't have numbers (list.org, documentation,
>FAQ), so I'm not sure I've looked at the exact item you think
>addresses it.  Where is this FAQ 1.22?

It is linked in the footer at the bottom of every single e-mail 
posted to this list. There is also a link there to a searchable 
version of the list archives.

Look at the end of this post and you will find those links. There may 
even be an answer to your question in the FAQ or archives.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 18:33:56 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 11:33:56 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
 Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240503c1235722a6b0@[10.0.1.210]>

At 11:17 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>>  First off, please don't hijack existing threads and leave the subject
>>  line the same.  If you have a new topic, please create a new message
>>  with a new subject.
>
>  Sorry about this ending up attached to the thread.  I don't see how it
>  did, and it wasn't my intention.

When you "reply" to a previous message, this is what happens.

If you have a new topic, please don't "reply" to a previous message 
and then continue on discussing whatever unrelated questions you may 
have.

>>  Secondly, your wording of this question suggests that you have not
>>  yet searched the FAQ or the archives before posting -- see FAQ 1.22.
>
>  I can find nothing in the FAQ relating to this.  However, the copy of
>  the FAQ I have found doesn't have numbers (list.org, documentation,
>  FAQ), so I'm not sure I've looked at the exact item you think
>  addresses it.  Where is this FAQ 1.22?

The Mailman "docs" page at <http://www.list.org/docs.html> actually 
links to two different FAQs.  One is the old developer-maintained 
page at <http://www.list.org/faq.html>, and one links to the newer 
community-driven Mailman FAQ Wizard at 
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py>.

In addition, if you look at the footer of every single post to this 
list, you will see the following information:

  ------------------------------------------------------
  Mailman-Users mailing list
  Mailman-Users at python.org
  http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
  Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
  Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/

  Security Policy:
  http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 18:55:45 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 11:55:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 11:17 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> >>  First off, please don't hijack existing threads and leave the subject
> >>  line the same.  If you have a new topic, please create a new message
> >>  with a new subject.
> >
> >  Sorry about this ending up attached to the thread.  I don't see how it
> >  did, and it wasn't my intention.
>
> When you "reply" to a previous message, this is what happens.
>
> If you have a new topic, please don't "reply" to a previous message
> and then continue on discussing whatever unrelated questions you may
> have.

I suppose that could be what happened.  Look, I've been participating
on Arpanet and Internet email lists since 1981, but every now and then
the fingers don't quite do it right, and we're all just going to have
to live with that; the perfect error-free human being has not yet been
invented.

> >>  Secondly, your wording of this question suggests that you have not
> >>  yet searched the FAQ or the archives before posting -- see FAQ 1.22.
> >
> >  I can find nothing in the FAQ relating to this.  However, the copy of
> >  the FAQ I have found doesn't have numbers (list.org, documentation,
> >  FAQ), so I'm not sure I've looked at the exact item you think
> >  addresses it.  Where is this FAQ 1.22?
>
> The Mailman "docs" page at <http://www.list.org/docs.html> actually
> links to two different FAQs.  One is the old developer-maintained
> page at <http://www.list.org/faq.html>, and one links to the newer
> community-driven Mailman FAQ Wizard at
> <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py>.

Ah, they have different content.   Okay.  And I've now checked through
the Wizard-driven FAQ and also find nothing relevant.

> In addition, if you look at the footer of every single post to this
> list, you will see the following information:

Oops, my fault again; gmail was hiding it.  I'm not used to these
stupid MUAs that muck about so much with the messages.

So, now I've checked both FAQs (I had already checked the official FAQ
before my first post, which I thought was fairly obvious from what I
wrote) and there's nothing relevant to this that I can find.

I hope you've had a good time picking on the minor mistake I made
(where my message ended up attached to  an existing thread), but could
you perhaps take a second or two to consider *my actual question*?
Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same
behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative
password for my site?
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 19:14:55 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 12:14:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
 Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240506c1235f5e94ab@[10.0.1.210]>

At 11:55 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>  I suppose that could be what happened.  Look, I've been participating
>  on Arpanet and Internet email lists since 1981, but every now and then
>  the fingers don't quite do it right, and we're all just going to have
>  to live with that; the perfect error-free human being has not yet been
>  invented.

True enough.  However, when a mistake like this occurs, you should 
likewise be prepared for a reminder such as the one I gave you.

You and I both have been around long enough to teach others about 
netiquette for over twenty years, and when we recognize that we've 
accidentally done something then it shouldn't be a surprise when 
others tell us about netiquette.

>  Ah, they have different content.

Yup.  They're different.

>                                     Okay.  And I've now checked through
>  the Wizard-driven FAQ and also find nothing relevant.

Did you search for "reauthentication"?  Or "saving my changes"?

What did you search for?  Maybe we need to update the subject lines 
or the content of the FAQ Wizard.

>  Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same
>  behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative
>  password for my site?

I'm not yet convinced that there is anything here that is not 
answered in the FAQs.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Tue Sep  5 19:25:37 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 10:25:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Firefox password issue (was Re: Hijacking threads
 and netiquette)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060905100957.03691e90@crimson-dragon.com>

David Dyer-Bennet sent the message below at 09:55 9/5/2006:

>Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same
>behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative
>password for my site?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

It is very simple. It is because these browsers that do this sort of 
thing are looking for an HTML input field named "password" (and maybe 
a few other similar names). If they do not find one with the name 
they expect, they do not save the password.

The field on the login page is named "adminpw" and is thus not 
recognized. What these browsers SHOULD be looking for is the TYPE of 
the input and not the name. But then again, I think this feature of 
some browsers is a security breach waiting to happen.

If you look at the source for the login page you will see something like this:

<INPUT TYPE="password" NAME="adminpw" SIZE="30">

You could modify your copy of mailman to change the name of that 
field if you wanted, I am not sure exactly how much of a change it 
would be and exactly which files are involved but I can't imagine it 
would take more than a handful of lines. However, I personally see 
nothing wrong with the way it is done now, in fact, I think it is a 
good practice. The reason I say this is that I believe saving 
passwords on your computer is generally a bad idea as it is a risky 
practice. All computers connected to the Internet and not physically 
secured from unauthorized access are vulnerable to attack.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 20:14:29 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:14:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 11:55 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>
> >                                     Okay.  And I've now checked through
> >  the Wizard-driven FAQ and also find nothing relevant.
>
> Did you search for "reauthentication"?  Or "saving my changes"?

No; I searched for "password" and "firefox", I believe.  Obviously
there were a number of entries mentioning passwords, but none about
saving them.

> What did you search for?  Maybe we need to update the subject lines
> or the content of the FAQ Wizard.

I'd suggest making sure "password" is in the index for that FAQ, yes.
If there *is* such a FAQ; you haven't yet exhibited one that has
anything to do with the issue I'm raising.

I don't see where "saving my changes" would come in; definitely not
something I'd search for when the issue is that browsers aren't
recognizing a password field.

> >  Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same
> >  behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative
> >  password for my site?
>
> I'm not yet convinced that there is anything here that is not
> answered in the FAQs.

I'm not convinced there's anything about this in the FAQ.

4.65 is not about the issue I'm raising; that's about cookie issues,
whereas my case is that the password field isn't recognized in the
first place.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 20:29:35 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:29:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
 Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240509c1236fda71d4@[10.0.1.210]>

At 1:14 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>>  Did you search for "reauthentication"?  Or "saving my changes"?
>
>  No; I searched for "password" and "firefox", I believe.  Obviously
>  there were a number of entries mentioning passwords, but none about
>  saving them.

Correct, there are a number of entries that mention "password", which 
is why this isn't the best search term.  Nevertheless, I have gone 
ahead and modified the subject lines of the two most relevant FAQ 
entries to also include the term "password".

>>  What did you search for?  Maybe we need to update the subject lines
>>  or the content of the FAQ Wizard.
>
>  I'd suggest making sure "password" is in the index for that FAQ, yes.

It already is.  Indeed, the problem is that searching for the term 
"password" comes up with too many entries, most of which may not be 
relevant to your particular problem.  However, there are now two more 
entries which also mention the term "password" in their subject lines.

>  If there *is* such a FAQ; you haven't yet exhibited one that has
>  anything to do with the issue I'm raising.

You apparently did not take the hint that I gave you previously.  You 
really should search for the term "reauthentication", which will come 
back with one and only one FAQ entry, which I believe is relevant to 
your query.  You should also search for the phrase "saving my 
changes", which will come back with one and only one FAQ entry (which 
is different from the other one), which might also be relevant.

>  I don't see where "saving my changes" would come in; definitely not
>  something I'd search for when the issue is that browsers aren't
>  recognizing a password field.

Try reading the two FAQ entries in question.  If you can come up with 
some suggested improvements to the wording, please go ahead and do 
so.  After all, this is a community supported document, and all the 
information you need for making changes to any of the FAQ entries is 
already present on the page.

>>  >  Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same
>>  >  behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative
>>  >  password for my site?
>>
>>  I'm not yet convinced that there is anything here that is not
>>  answered in the FAQs.
>
>  I'm not convinced there's anything about this in the FAQ.

That's possible.  If this really is a browser-specific issue with 
Firefox, then it would be the very first time I've ever heard of this 
kind of thing, and I frequently use Firefox myself.

>  4.65 is not about the issue I'm raising; that's about cookie issues,
>  whereas my case is that the password field isn't recognized in the
>  first place.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you should at least look at the other FAQ entry as well.

If I am wrong, then this is the very first time I've ever heard of 
such problems with Firefox, and will require a new FAQ entry.

While this wouldn't be the first application-specific FAQ entry, it 
would be the first one that is specific to Firefox, and I believe it 
would also be the first one that is specific to a particular web 
browser -- all other application-specific FAQ entries I know of have 
to do with other types of programs, and web browsers appear to have 
acted more or less the same with regards to these kinds of things.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 20:42:29 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:42:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Firefox password issue (was Re: Hijacking
	threads and netiquette)
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060905100957.03691e90@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060905100957.03691e90@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051142r83fc8d3q2f3e130215418e6d@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Dragon <dragon at crimson-dragon.com> wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet sent the message below at 09:55 9/5/2006:
>
> >Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same
> >behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative
> >password for my site?
> ---------------- End original message. ---------------------
>
> It is very simple. It is because these browsers that do this sort of
> thing are looking for an HTML input field named "password" (and maybe
> a few other similar names). If they do not find one with the name
> they expect, they do not save the password.
>
> The field on the login page is named "adminpw" and is thus not
> recognized. What these browsers SHOULD be looking for is the TYPE of
> the input and not the name. But then again, I think this feature of
> some browsers is a security breach waiting to happen.

Mostly the browsers are looking for username / password pairs, and
need to capture both; and there's no unique input field type for the
username part; so I see how they've ended up where they are, though it
does seem to make sense  for them to capture bare passwords as well
based on input field type.

> If you look at the source for the login page you will see something like this:
>
> <INPUT TYPE="password" NAME="adminpw" SIZE="30">
>
> You could modify your copy of mailman to change the name of that
> field if you wanted, I am not sure exactly how much of a change it
> would be and exactly which files are involved but I can't imagine it
> would take more than a handful of lines.

Unfortunately I don't control the copy I have to interact with.

> However, I personally see
> nothing wrong with the way it is done now, in fact, I think it is a
> good practice. The reason I say this is that I believe saving
> passwords on your computer is generally a bad idea as it is a risky
> practice. All computers connected to the Internet and not physically
> secured from unauthorized access are vulnerable to attack.

And the passwords saved in my browser are encrypted under a master
passphrase.  The other reasonable choice I have for saving passwords
is Passwordsafe, where -- they're encrypted under a master passphrase.

I currently have 266 password (nearly all 8-12 character random
strings) in my Passwordsafe database.   I have about 10 passwords I
carry in my memory, including the passphrases mentioned above plus a
couple of key work- and server-related passwords.  For me, keeping
them all in my memory is not an option.  (And the number is much
smaller than it might be; for example at a number of retailers where I
have the option I don't establish an account or store any data there,
and hence don't have a password to remember.)

Certainly there's some risk to ever writing them down or putting them
on a computer; but I believe storing them the way they do is a
reasonable balance between risk from the password being compromised,
and risk from forgetting it when I need it.  Security is all about
tradeoffs; my computer would be more secure powered down, disconnected
from the net, and locked in a vault, but it would also be far less
useful.

And of course giving the adminpw form field the name "password" would
not force anybody to keep the passwords in their browser; that
functionality can be disabled, and if enabled it still asks before
remembering a password, so it's hard to do accidentally.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From tmz at pobox.com  Tue Sep  5 20:47:14 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:47:14 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> I'm not convinced there's anything about this in the FAQ.
> 
> 4.65 is not about the issue I'm raising; that's about cookie issues,
> whereas my case is that the password field isn't recognized in the
> first place.

I've tested this on systems running both 2.1.5 and 2.1.8 and it works
fine for me with Firefox 1.5.0.6.  The admin login html hasn't changed
for any of those releases.  I don't see how this would be a mailman
issue.  Even if firefox failed to save the password for me as well,
I'd see that as a firefox problem.  The html that mailman uses for
that form is pretty basic, so firefox would have to be pretty broken
if it couldn't handle it.

Have you tried using another firefox profile (or from another machine
entirely) to verify that this isn't something specific to your firefox
config/system setup?

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Vote early and vote often.
    -- Al Capone (1899-1947)

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From jimpop at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 21:00:44 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 15:00:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette
In-Reply-To: <20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <44FDC95C.6070906@yahoo.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Todd Zullinger wrote:
> Have you tried using another firefox profile (or from another machine
> entirely) to verify that this isn't something specific to your firefox
> config/system setup?

Alternatively make sure that your Mailman domain isn't listed in
~/.mozilla/..../signons.txt.  If it is in the upper section then you
have previously told FireFox not to save the pw for that domain.

hth,

- -Jim P.  (/me thinks someone should replace the FAQ wizard with a
wiki... just because it confuses less ;-))



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From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 21:23:09 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:23:09 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette
In-Reply-To: <44FDC95C.6070906@yahoo.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<44FDC95C.6070906@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p0624050cc1237e49d3c7@[10.0.1.210]>

At 3:00 PM -0400 2006-09-05, Jim Popovitch wrote:

>  - -Jim P.  (/me thinks someone should replace the FAQ wizard with a
>  wiki... just because it confuses less ;-))

The wiki already exists -- see <http://wiki.list.org/>.

However, someone will have to copy all that content over to the wiki, 
edit and re-arrange the material as appropriate, etc....  That is not 
a small undertaking.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 21:23:42 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:23:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 1:14 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> >>  Did you search for "reauthentication"?  Or "saving my changes"?
> >
> >  No; I searched for "password" and "firefox", I believe.  Obviously
> >  there were a number of entries mentioning passwords, but none about
> >  saving them.
>
> Correct, there are a number of entries that mention "password", which
> is why this isn't the best search term.  Nevertheless, I have gone
> ahead and modified the subject lines of the two most relevant FAQ
> entries to also include the term "password".

While I agree it's not a wonderful search term by virtue of being
relevant to a lot of different FAQs, it's the one people will be
looking for in this case; the problem is that their browser doesn't
offer to remember their password.

> >  If there *is* such a FAQ; you haven't yet exhibited one that has
> >  anything to do with the issue I'm raising.
>
> You apparently did not take the hint that I gave you previously.  You
> really should search for the term "reauthentication", which will come
> back with one and only one FAQ entry, which I believe is relevant to
> your query.  You should also search for the phrase "saving my
> changes", which will come back with one and only one FAQ entry (which
> is different from the other one), which might also be relevant.

Could you *please* drop your condescending tone about 10 decibels?  I
*did* search for "reauthentication", it's how I got to FAQ 4.65, which
I mention below.

***THAT IS NOT RELEVANT TO MY PROBLEM.***

I have said this before, several times.  I'm getting tired of not
being listened to.

Also FAW 4.45 is not relevant to my problem.  They're about a
different set of symptoms entirely.

My problem, as I have said from the beginning, is that browsers
(specifically Firefox, though I note the same problem reported against
Safari in feature request 966157) do not recognize the password field
on the mailing list administrator login page as a password field, and
hence do not offer to save it for me, and hence make it much, much
harder to deal with mailing list administration than it needs to be.

> >  I don't see where "saving my changes" would come in; definitely not
> >  something I'd search for when the issue is that browsers aren't
> >  recognizing a password field.
>
> Try reading the two FAQ entries in question.  If you can come up with
> some suggested improvements to the wording, please go ahead and do
> so.  After all, this is a community supported document, and all the
> information you need for making changes to any of the FAQ entries is
> already present on the page.

I HAVE read the FAQ entries in question.  I don't want to change those
two, becaues they're not relevant to this issue (and presumably *are*
relevant to the issues they are addressing, so I shouldn't hijack
them).

> >>  >  Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same
> >>  >  behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative
> >>  >  password for my site?
> >>
> >>  I'm not yet convinced that there is anything here that is not
> >>  answered in the FAQs.
> >
> >  I'm not convinced there's anything about this in the FAQ.
>
> That's possible.  If this really is a browser-specific issue with
> Firefox, then it would be the very first time I've ever heard of this
> kind of thing, and I frequently use Firefox myself.

It's probably not specific to Firefox.  I reported it against Firefox
because that's where I've actually seen it happen.  I seem to remember
seeing it in Opera as well.  And as I mentioned above, another user
has reported it in Safari.

> >  4.65 is not about the issue I'm raising; that's about cookie issues,
> >  whereas my case is that the password field isn't recognized in the
> >  first place.
>
> Maybe I'm wrong, but you should at least look at the other FAQ entry as well.
>
> If I am wrong, then this is the very first time I've ever heard of
> such problems with Firefox, and will require a new FAQ entry.
>
> While this wouldn't be the first application-specific FAQ entry, it
> would be the first one that is specific to Firefox, and I believe it
> would also be the first one that is specific to a particular web
> browser -- all other application-specific FAQ entries I know of have
> to do with other types of programs, and web browsers appear to have
> acted more or less the same with regards to these kinds of things.

I wrote what would have been 3.67, only to then be told that it wasn't
actually open to anybody to post after all; so to keep that work from
going to waste I post it here, and propose it be included (or improved
and then included):

Summary: Some browsers do not recognize the password on the list
administrator authentication page

Firefox and Safari, and quite possibly other browsers, do not
recognize the password entry field on the administrator list
authentication web page as a password field, and hence do not offer to
remember it for you.

The password field is named "adminpw" in the form rather than
"password", and the browsers may also be set up to look for a pair of
"username" and "password" rather than a bare password field.

No workaround is known for this problem.  At least one of Mailman and
the browsers will have to change for this behavior to change.

You should of course be very careful how and where you store your
passwords; if you store them on a computer connected to the net (in
the browser or otherwise) you should *at least* make sure they're well
encrypted (using, in Firefox, the "master password" feature).

Feature request 966157  (from 2004) was filed to get this fixed, but
as of 2006-09-05 nothing appears to have been done about it yet.

---------------

I'm sure it could be refined and improved, but there's a starting point.

> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
> temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
>
>      -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
>      Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

I'm reading Franklin's autobiography right now (thanks Gutenberg!),
and right about that date, though he doesn't choose to repeat that
phrase in the autobio.  It's one of my favorites, though.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 21:58:39 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:58:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Todd Zullinger <tmz at pobox.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> > I'm not convinced there's anything about this in the FAQ.
> >
> > 4.65 is not about the issue I'm raising; that's about cookie issues,
> > whereas my case is that the password field isn't recognized in the
> > first place.
>
> I've tested this on systems running both 2.1.5 and 2.1.8 and it works
> fine for me with Firefox 1.5.0.6.  The admin login html hasn't changed
> for any of those releases.  I don't see how this would be a mailman
> issue.  Even if firefox failed to save the password for me as well,
> I'd see that as a firefox problem.  The html that mailman uses for
> that form is pretty basic, so firefox would have to be pretty broken
> if it couldn't handle it.

Same Firefox version I have.  Mailman 2.1.6, though (Dreamhost.com's
installation, not under my control).   I had the same thing happening
on my previous Mailman installation, though, which was whatever debian
sarge is at -- seems to be 2.1.5.  I have the same thing happen on the
Dreamhost installation using Opera 9 (build 8501).

> Have you tried using another firefox profile (or from another machine
> entirely) to verify that this isn't something specific to your firefox
> config/system setup?

If firefox has profiles, they're not in the menu and not in the help
(under that name).  But I tried Opera as well, and I've seen this over
the last two years with various browser installations.

Try <http://lists.dragaera.info/admin.cgi/dragaera-dragaera.info>, put
in an invalid password (unless you get *really* lucky guessing), and I
don't expect your browser will offer it back to you when you come to
try again; it doesn't for me.

I find I have mis-described the problem; Firefox *does* recognize the
password and save it, I can see it in the list of saved passwords.
What it doesn't do is *offer it back* when I return to the page.  Same
net result, I have to look it up and put it in each time, but
different path to get there.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From raquel at thericehouse.net  Tue Sep  5 21:53:00 2006
From: raquel at thericehouse.net (Raquel)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 12:53:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
 Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060905125300.138e9d02.raquel@thericehouse.net>

On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:23:42 -0500
"David Dyer-Bennet" <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:

> My problem, as I have said from the beginning, is that browsers
> (specifically Firefox, though I note the same problem reported
> against Safari in feature request 966157) do not recognize the
> password field on the mailing list administrator login page as a
> password field, and hence do not offer to save it for me, and
> hence make it much, much harder to deal with mailing list
> administration than it needs to be.

What I cannot understand, since this is a browser issue, is that it
becomes a Mailman problem.  Should Mailman, and every web site on
the Internet, change their programming?  Should the browser
programmers change their programming?  I suppose the answer to those
questions depend on who is asked.

-- 
Raquel
============================================================
This above all: to thine own self be true; And it must follow, as
the night the day; Thou canst not then be false to any man.
  --William Shakespeare



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 22:22:28 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:22:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <20060905125300.138e9d02.raquel@thericehouse.net>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905125300.138e9d02.raquel@thericehouse.net>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051322l15502358w23e38ce40ff432f5@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Raquel <raquel at thericehouse.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:23:42 -0500
> "David Dyer-Bennet" <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:
>
> > My problem, as I have said from the beginning, is that browsers
> > (specifically Firefox, though I note the same problem reported
> > against Safari in feature request 966157) do not recognize the
> > password field on the mailing list administrator login page as a
> > password field, and hence do not offer to save it for me, and
> > hence make it much, much harder to deal with mailing list
> > administration than it needs to be.
>
> What I cannot understand, since this is a browser issue, is that it
> becomes a Mailman problem.  Should Mailman, and every web site on
> the Internet, change their programming?  Should the browser
> programmers change their programming?  I suppose the answer to those
> questions depend on who is asked.

It's an issue in the interaction of browsers and Mailman.  It could
almost certainly be fixed by either side.  If you want to start a
finger-pointing contest and say "not my problem" that's your privilege
of course, but they can do so just as validly on the other side.

The schemes currently implemented in many browsers work with a huge
array of sites out there, everything from ebay to amazon to
sourceforge to slashdot to The New York Times, thousands and thousands
of sites.

Unfortunately they do not seem to work with Mailman.

You can argue that everybody is wrong except Mailman, and all the
browsers should change to support the way Mailman wants to do this
(while, of course, not breaking any of the *other* sites they already
work with).

If you want to argue that, please go ahead; there may be additional
reasons I haven't yet seen or thought of why what Mailman does is so
right that it's more important than whether it works with existing
browsers, and so right that when we make the argument to the browser
community they will all rush to fix the browsers.   That's entirely
possible.

So, make the argument.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From tmz at pobox.com  Tue Sep  5 22:25:59 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:25:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060905202559.GJ30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> On 9/5/06, Todd Zullinger <tmz at pobox.com> wrote:
> If firefox has profiles, they're not in the menu and not in the help
> (under that name).

I don't know the various ways to change the profiles in firefox, but
running the command line firefox -ProfileManager will open up the
profile manager.  The -P option will use the profile you specify.

But I think this is irrelavant after reading your text below...

> Try <http://lists.dragaera.info/admin.cgi/dragaera-dragaera.info>,
> put in an invalid password (unless you get *really* lucky guessing),
> and I don't expect your browser will offer it back to you when you
> come to try again; it doesn't for me.

Yeah, I didn't get luck on my first and only try.  Firefox did offer
to save the password, but it did not fill it in automatically for me
on return.  I am fairly sure that it used to, though I'm not positive
and I don't know whrn this might have changed.  It hasn't changed on
the mailman side very recently.

> I find I have mis-described the problem; Firefox *does* recognize
> the password and save it, I can see it in the list of saved
> passwords.  What it doesn't do is *offer it back* when I return to
> the page.  Same net result, I have to look it up and put it in each
> time, but different path to get there.

This is definitely a firefox bug, AFAIAK.  If Firefox is smart enough
to offer to save the password, then it needs to be smart enough to
fill it back in on return to the same page.  Unless someone in the
firefox camp can show that the spartan HTML generated on the mailman
admin logon page is just plain wrong, I can't see how changing it is a
problem that mailman should deal with.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief
in freedom itself.
    -- Milton Friedman

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From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 22:27:00 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:27:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
 Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c1238b5ae3d3@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:23 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>  While I agree it's not a wonderful search term by virtue of being
>  relevant to a lot of different FAQs, it's the one people will be
>  looking for in this case; the problem is that their browser doesn't
>  offer to remember their password.

Unfortunately, with 25 different entries being returned matching the 
term "password", I fear that it is going to be difficult for most 
people to figure out which ones are or are not related to their 
particular question.  That's part of why I made a point of using the 
term "reauthentication" on one particular entry, and I've tried to 
describe the problems using as much of the same terminology as the 
person who initially brought the subject to my attention.

>                                                                      I
>  *did* search for "reauthentication", it's how I got to FAQ 4.65, which
>  I mention below.

I saw that later, but there was no clear indication that you had read 
both entries, and at that point I still had not received enough 
information from you to convince me that neither of these were 
actually related to the problem you were having.

>  My problem, as I have said from the beginning, is that browsers
>  (specifically Firefox, though I note the same problem reported against
>  Safari in feature request 966157) do not recognize the password field
>  on the mailing list administrator login page as a password field, and
>  hence do not offer to save it for me, and hence make it much, much
>  harder to deal with mailing list administration than it needs to be.

Which sounds to me pretty much exactly like the problems described in 
FAQ 4.64 and 4.45, namely that your password is not being saved and 
you keep being asked to re-enter it.  The precise mechanism of the 
failure may be different, but the high-level description is 
essentially the same.  We need some way to differentiate between the 
underlying problems, and it's still not clear to me what the real 
underlying problem is or how it should be fixed -- or even if we 
should try to fix it within the Mailman code.

>  I HAVE read the FAQ entries in question.  I don't want to change those
>  two, becaues they're not relevant to this issue (and presumably *are*
>  relevant to the issues they are addressing, so I shouldn't hijack
>  them).

Fair enough.  Then a new FAQ entry would be appropriate.

>  I wrote what would have been 3.67, only to then be told that it wasn't
>  actually open to anybody to post after all; so to keep that work from
>  going to waste I post it here, and propose it be included (or improved
>  and then included):

Look closely.  All the information you need is actually right there. 
You're asked for your full name, your e-mail address, and the 
password.  The password is actually given to you in multiple places, 
and is pretty obvious -- although I'm not going to explicitly mention 
it in this public forum.

With those three pieces of information, anyone can create a new FAQ 
entry or edit an existing one.  In fact, that's how I got involved in 
the Mailman project several years ago -- I installed Mailman at my 
site, I started seeing lots of common questions coming up on the 
list, and I started combing through all the FAQ entries.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 22:31:36 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:31:36 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
 Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240501c1238e298c43@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:58 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>  Same Firefox version I have.  Mailman 2.1.6, though (Dreamhost.com's
>  installation, not under my control).

Ahh.  In which case, you should also see FAQ 1.32, and be aware that 
Dreamhost.com may well have made some localized modifications -- 
perhaps not as bad as cPanel, Plesk, or Apple, but still non-standard 
nonetheless.

>                                         I had the same thing happening
>  on my previous Mailman installation, though, which was whatever debian
>  sarge is at -- seems to be 2.1.5.

Whose package were you using?  Do you know if they made any modifications?

>  I find I have mis-described the problem; Firefox *does* recognize the
>  password and save it, I can see it in the list of saved passwords.
>  What it doesn't do is *offer it back* when I return to the page.  Same
>  net result, I have to look it up and put it in each time, but
>  different path to get there.

I don't understand why Firefox, Opera, and all the other browsers you 
have used have acted in the same way, and why others don't seem to be 
having the same problems when using the same browsers.

But given this additional information, this most definitely seems to 
be a pure browser issue to me, and not a problem with Mailman.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From tmz at pobox.com  Tue Sep  5 22:34:36 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:34:36 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051322l15502358w23e38ce40ff432f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905125300.138e9d02.raquel@thericehouse.net>
	<34a783b20609051322l15502358w23e38ce40ff432f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060905203436.GL30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> It's an issue in the interaction of browsers and Mailman.  It could
> almost certainly be fixed by either side.  If you want to start a
> finger-pointing contest and say "not my problem" that's your
> privilege of course, but they can do so just as validly on the other
> side.
> 
> The schemes currently implemented in many browsers work with a huge
> array of sites out there, everything from ebay to amazon to
> sourceforge to slashdot to The New York Times, thousands and
> thousands of sites.
> 
> Unfortunately they do not seem to work with Mailman.
> 
> You can argue that everybody is wrong except Mailman, and all the
> browsers should change to support the way Mailman wants to do this
> (while, of course, not breaking any of the *other* sites they
> already work with).
> 
> If you want to argue that, please go ahead; there may be additional
> reasons I haven't yet seen or thought of why what Mailman does is so
> right that it's more important than whether it works with existing
> browsers, and so right that when we make the argument to the browser
> community they will all rush to fix the browsers.   That's entirely
> possible.
> 
> So, make the argument.

Perhaps you should first show how mailman is broken here.  If you're
claim is that all sites which have a password entry form need to use
both a username and password or that the password field needs to be
named password, then I'm just going to chuckle.

If there is something actually broken about the way that mailman's
admin page presents itself and makes it impossible for a sane browser
to save the password, then point it out explicitly.  References to any
related RFC or other standard specification would be a big plus.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
I've had a perfectly wonderful evening.  But this wasn't it.
    -- Groucho Marx

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From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Tue Sep  5 22:51:00 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 13:51:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
 Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060905131023.0375a5b0@crimson-dragon.com>

David Dyer-Bennet sent the message below at 12:58 9/5/2006:

>I find I have mis-described the problem; Firefox *does* recognize the
>password and save it, I can see it in the list of saved passwords.
>What it doesn't do is *offer it back* when I return to the page.  Same
>net result, I have to look it up and put it in each time, but
>different path to get there.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Mailman is not broken just because it does not work the way you want 
it to with the browser you have chosen to use. If you can show how 
the implementation mailman uses is fundamentally wrong with a 
reference to an applicable RFC, I think then it would be appropriate 
for the mailman developers to address the issue. Until then, this is 
a problem with your browser and the browser developer is the 
appropriate organization to deal with the problem. Even if you did 
come up with such a reference and mailman is fundamentally broken, 
there are other issues that are likely to take priority over what is 
really just a minor annoyance.

This list, being a support list for mailman, is thus not the 
appropriate place to address this issue. Filing a bug report or 
feature request with the developers of Firefox (or any other 
similarly affected browser) is the right course of action.



Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 22:56:39 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:56:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <20060905202559.GJ30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905202559.GJ30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051356v254389beodc465ebee3cace49@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Todd Zullinger <tmz at pobox.com> wrote:

> This is definitely a firefox bug, AFAIAK.  If Firefox is smart enough
> to offer to save the password, then it needs to be smart enough to
> fill it back in on return to the same page.  Unless someone in the
> firefox camp can show that the spartan HTML generated on the mailman
> admin logon page is just plain wrong, I can't see how changing it is a
> problem that mailman should deal with.

And it's apparently fixed in 2.0
<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=235336>.

Thanks to everybody for their assistance working out what was going on
here.  I apologize for the heat I contributed to the discussion (while
pleading in extenuation that I was provoked).
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 23:03:28 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:03:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <20060905203436.GL30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905125300.138e9d02.raquel@thericehouse.net>
	<34a783b20609051322l15502358w23e38ce40ff432f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905203436.GL30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051403x194735f4x37b3f3f9eba1c87b@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Todd Zullinger <tmz at pobox.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> > It's an issue in the interaction of browsers and Mailman.  It could
> > almost certainly be fixed by either side.  If you want to start a
> > finger-pointing contest and say "not my problem" that's your
> > privilege of course, but they can do so just as validly on the other
> > side.
> >
> > The schemes currently implemented in many browsers work with a huge
> > array of sites out there, everything from ebay to amazon to
> > sourceforge to slashdot to The New York Times, thousands and
> > thousands of sites.
> >
> > Unfortunately they do not seem to work with Mailman.
> >
> > You can argue that everybody is wrong except Mailman, and all the
> > browsers should change to support the way Mailman wants to do this
> > (while, of course, not breaking any of the *other* sites they
> > already work with).
> >
> > If you want to argue that, please go ahead; there may be additional
> > reasons I haven't yet seen or thought of why what Mailman does is so
> > right that it's more important than whether it works with existing
> > browsers, and so right that when we make the argument to the browser
> > community they will all rush to fix the browsers.   That's entirely
> > possible.
> >
> > So, make the argument.
>
> Perhaps you should first show how mailman is broken here.  If you're
> claim is that all sites which have a password entry form need to use
> both a username and password or that the password field needs to be
> named password, then I'm just going to chuckle.
>
> If there is something actually broken about the way that mailman's
> admin page presents itself and makes it impossible for a sane browser
> to save the password, then point it out explicitly.  References to any
> related RFC or other standard specification would be a big plus.

If you want to take a rules-lawyer approach and use it to resist any
suggestion of change, be my guest.  So far as I know, what's at issue
here is the question of interoperability in an area where there are no
formal standards in play.  So, from a rules-lawyer point of view,
clearly nobody is at fault.

>From a real-world point of view, there's still a problem.

Given that Firefox was picking up the password, but was NOT offering
it back on later visits, I'll accept the argument that the basic
problem is really in Firefox.  Apparently so do they, and they've
fixed it in an upcoming release, see my recent previous message.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 23:17:48 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:17:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <p06240500c1238b5ae3d3@10.0.1.210>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240500c1238b5ae3d3@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051417s40d1d6a3td8a0cbf463767b57@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:

> >  I wrote what would have been 3.67, only to then be told that it wasn't
> >  actually open to anybody to post after all; so to keep that work from
> >  going to waste I post it here, and propose it be included (or improved
> >  and then included):
>
> Look closely.  All the information you need is actually right there.
> You're asked for your full name, your e-mail address, and the
> password.  The password is actually given to you in multiple places,
> and is pretty obvious -- although I'm not going to explicitly mention
> it in this public forum.

Now *that* really pissed me off.  The page linked from the "help"
button on the FAQ edit page says "What is the password? The webmaster
will tell you the password if you ask nicely."  I really don't much
like scavenger-hunt-as-security-metaphor, but maybe that help should
be updated somehow to suggest the real situation more accurately.

I'll be updating the new FAQ with one more point, the Firefox bug
number (closed for 2.0) referring to this problem, and posting it
shortly.  Unless yet *another* booby-trap trips me up yet *again*.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com  Tue Sep  5 23:20:51 2006
From: Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com (Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:20:51 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Subject Line on Invite Messages
Message-ID: <249DE599979CD84683A1C3D94FBD52BB022CDF@farquaad.us.omicron.at>

Hi, Does the VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes only works on certain version of
Mailman? We have Mailman version 2.1.1-5, Python 3.0.4-0.1, and Qmail
(1.03-rhel3) and have set the setting as suggested; but we are still getting
the generic subject line for list subscription confirmation email.
Thanks, 
Jimmy Do 
OMICRON Lab 
12 Greenway Plaza, suite 1510 
Houston, TX 77046 
713-830-4660 x108 
http://www.omicron-lab.com 
============================================================================
=========== 
At 20:38 -0700 7/22/04, Mark Sapiro wrote: 
>Toby Reiter wrote: 
> 
>>This has been asked here before, but is there any way to modify the 
>>Subject of the invite message? "confirm 
>>aad5624d316c46234928426cb4a6c57c691d0e7c" is a DEAD WRINGER for spam, 
>>and is likely to be deleted by many of our users. I don't want to be 
>>a bad net citizen and automatically subscribe users to this list, but 
>>the majority of the people who receive the invitation will want to 
>>join (it's for health services trainings through a non-profit they've 
>>already done trainings with, working with the CDC, etc.). But I fear 
>>many will miss out on this invitation for a list they really want to 
>>be on, thinking the message is spam. If the message had a welcome 
>>text, like "An Invitation to Join the Foo List" I think people would 
>>probably read it. 
> 
>set 
>VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes 
>in mm_cfg.py. 




From tmz at pobox.com  Tue Sep  5 23:22:39 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 17:22:39 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051403x194735f4x37b3f3f9eba1c87b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905125300.138e9d02.raquel@thericehouse.net>
	<34a783b20609051322l15502358w23e38ce40ff432f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905203436.GL30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051403x194735f4x37b3f3f9eba1c87b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060905212239.GM30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> If you want to take a rules-lawyer approach and use it to resist any
> suggestion of change, be my guest.  So far as I know, what's at
> issue here is the question of interoperability in an area where
> there are no formal standards in play.  So, from a rules-lawyer
> point of view, clearly nobody is at fault.

No, firefox is at fault.  They save the password as feature and then
fail to re-use it when it would be useful.  Mailman has no part in
this at all and asking anyone that develops a web site to change their
code to suit the arbitrary scheme a browser uses to save passwords is
pointless.  If there were some sort of RFC that outlined how such a
process should work, then it'd be fairly simple to change the mailman
html output to meet it.  Without that, whose arbitrary scheme would
mailman use?  Making one work may break another and lead to more user
coming here asking why their favorite broswer's unique scheme for
recognizing a pasword to save didn't work.

> From a real-world point of view, there's still a problem.

Yep.  A firefox problem.

> Given that Firefox was picking up the password, but was NOT offering
> it back on later visits, I'll accept the argument that the basic
> problem is really in Firefox.  Apparently so do they, and they've
> fixed it in an upcoming release, see my recent previous message.

Glad to hear it.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is
striking at the root.
    -- Henry David Thoreau

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 23:12:24 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:12:24 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Firefox password issue (was: Re: Hijacking threads
 and netiquette ... )
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051403x194735f4x37b3f3f9eba1c87b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905125300.138e9d02.raquel@thericehouse.net>
	<34a783b20609051322l15502358w23e38ce40ff432f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905203436.GL30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051403x194735f4x37b3f3f9eba1c87b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240502c123970fa204@[10.0.1.210]>

At 4:03 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>  Given that Firefox was picking up the password, but was NOT offering
>  it back on later visits, I'll accept the argument that the basic
>  problem is really in Firefox.  Apparently so do they, and they've
>  fixed it in an upcoming release, see my recent previous message.

That still leaves us with the problem of what was causing the same 
apparent behaviour with Opera, Safari, and the other browsers you 
mentioned.


If I had to guess, I would say that it's probably a result of people 
using essentially the same terms to describe various problems with 
very different root causes, some of which may already have been 
addressed in more recent versions of our code, some of which may have 
already been discussed in the FAQ, some of which may not be our 
fault, and there is still the slight possibility that there may be 
something we could or should do to try to help make this issue more 
clear.

I think the biggest problem is going to be trying to figure out which is which.


There are now twenty-six different FAQ entries that use the term 
"password", and I've gone in and edited 4.45, 4.65, and 4.71 to all 
cross-link to each other because they all seem to be related to the 
same type of problem, albeit with various different root causes.

This is not a good situation.  We need to clear this up so that we 
don't have these kinds of problems again in the future.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 23:28:46 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:28:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Firefox password issue (was: Re: Hijacking threads
 and netiquette ... )
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051356v254389beodc465ebee3cace49@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905202559.GJ30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051356v254389beodc465ebee3cace49@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240503c12399833555@[10.0.1.210]>

At 3:56 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>  Thanks to everybody for their assistance working out what was going on
>  here.  I apologize for the heat I contributed to the discussion (while
>  pleading in extenuation that I was provoked).

There was certainly a communications breakdown, yes.  And we did 
start off by going down a rathole as a result of an accident, 
although we did wind up taking this thread back onto your topic which 
was intended to be original.

However, while you may have felt like you were being provoked, you 
should know that I certainly did not intend to provoke you, and I 
don't believe that anyone else did, either.  I believe it was an 
honest miscommunication, which was piled on top of some unfortunate 
previous problems, and that set us up into a pattern which became 
mutually non-productive.


I will apologize for anything I may have said which came across as 
being provocational in nature, and assume that you (and others) would 
do the same.


There may still be some minor technical issues that can/should 
continue to be discussed, and if so then I hope we will be able to do 
that without getting back into this pattern.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From ken at sunward.org  Tue Sep  5 23:41:18 2006
From: ken at sunward.org (Ken Winter)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 17:41:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
Message-ID: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>

The config_list utility doesn't include the "public HTML pages" (most
importantly for me, the "General List Information

Page") as part of the configuration that it copies from one list to another.
Since I have drastically customized my List Info Page, this rather impedes
cloning my lists.

 

So, three questions:

 

1. Is there some way to get config_list to do this?

2. If not, is there some other utility that does it?

3. If not, is there some easier way to do it than opening the "source" and
"target" lists in the administrator web sites and cutting-and-pasting the
HTML from one to the other?

 

~ TIA

~ Ken

 



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Wed Sep  6 00:01:39 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 17:01:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Firefox password issue (was: Re: Hijacking
	threads and netiquette ... )
In-Reply-To: <p06240503c12399833555@10.0.1.210>
References: <20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905202559.GJ30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051356v254389beodc465ebee3cace49@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c12399833555@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051501oafec2d7p2a0cb47d6f8988d6@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 3:56 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> >  Thanks to everybody for their assistance working out what was going on
> >  here.  I apologize for the heat I contributed to the discussion (while
> >  pleading in extenuation that I was provoked).
>
> There was certainly a communications breakdown, yes.  And we did
> start off by going down a rathole as a result of an accident,
> although we did wind up taking this thread back onto your topic which
> was intended to be original.

And we got back on track partly because we both were stubborn, rather
than giving up or degenerating into a flamewar.  I have seen worse
outcomes, even if this wasn't perfectly optimum.

> However, while you may have felt like you were being provoked, you
> should know that I certainly did not intend to provoke you, and I
> don't believe that anyone else did, either.  I believe it was an
> honest miscommunication, which was piled on top of some unfortunate
> previous problems, and that set us up into a pattern which became
> mutually non-productive.

Sometimes tone doesn't come across to the reader as it was intended by
the writer, even when they're from the same culture and both
(seemingly) pretty decent writers and readers.   I'm not interested in
accusing you of doing anything counter-productive deliberately.  If I
wasn't reading it the way you were trying to write it, I'll happily
chalk it up to "one of those things" that we both contributed to, and
move on.

The important thing is that the original Firefox issue was brought to
a useful conclusion, and that it was done without (I hope) excessive
cost in wasted time or ongoing hostilities.

> I will apologize for anything I may have said which came across as
> being provocational in nature, and assume that you (and others) would
> do the same.

I feel no need to go into detail on what I saw that way along the way;
and hope you feel the same about my own posts in this discussion.  And
I accept and thank you for the general apology.  (My apology is in the
previous message, the one you are responding to, so please nobody
think I'm accepting apologies without offering my own!)

> There may still be some minor technical issues that can/should
> continue to be discussed, and if so then I hope we will be able to do
> that without getting back into this pattern.

That would very much be my preference.

I've posted the FAQ entry, and updated the Mailman feature request
with the information on the Firefox bug entry.  I suppose it would be
useful to test a few more browsers carefully to see which ones do what
here.  I also haven't tried the 2.0 beta, to see if the fix really
does fix this.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Sep  6 00:02:10 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 17:02:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subject Line on Invite Messages
In-Reply-To: <249DE599979CD84683A1C3D94FBD52BB022CDF@farquaad.us.omicron.at>
References: <249DE599979CD84683A1C3D94FBD52BB022CDF@farquaad.us.omicron.at>
Message-ID: <p06240505c123a3cc9e51@[10.0.1.210]>

At 4:20 PM -0500 2006-09-05, <Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com> wrote:

>  Hi, Does the VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes only works on certain version of
>  Mailman? We have Mailman version 2.1.1-5, Python 3.0.4-0.1, and Qmail
>  (1.03-rhel3) and have set the setting as suggested; but we are still getting
>  the generic subject line for list subscription confirmation email.

Looking through the source, Mailman 2.1.5 mentions this option, but 
I've having trouble using Subversion to figure out precisely when 
this was introduced.  I know that the code around this option has 
changed more than once, but that's about all I can tell you right now.

I can tell you that the latest current version right now is version 
2.1.8, and 2.1.9 will be released very soon.  2.1.9rc1 is out now, 
and we're already running it on python.org.  There are some important 
security fixes coming with 2.1.9, so I highly recommend that you get 
this version for your site as soon as it is available.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 23:32:55 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:32:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Firefox password issue (was: Re: Hijacking threads
 and netiquette ... )
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051417s40d1d6a3td8a0cbf463767b57@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240500c1238b5ae3d3@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051417s40d1d6a3td8a0cbf463767b57@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240504c1239caff3a5@[10.0.1.210]>

At 4:17 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>  Now *that* really pissed me off.  The page linked from the "help"
>  button on the FAQ edit page says "What is the password? The webmaster
>  will tell you the password if you ask nicely."

Right.  In private e-mail, not on a public forum.

Moreover, the password is displayed at the bottom of every one of those pages.

>                                                  I really don't much
>  like scavenger-hunt-as-security-metaphor, but maybe that help should
>  be updated somehow to suggest the real situation more accurately.

Security through obscurity is not my favourite solution, either.  But 
this method has been enough to keep the worst of the spammers out so 
far, and with the wiki already being in place and working, I don't 
imagine that anyone is going to be going back to the old FAQ Wizard 
code and hacking that up to work in a different way.

However, that's a standard Python FAQ Wizard which is used by 
multiple other projects and not just Mailman, so maybe you could talk 
to the authors of that tool and suggest some alternatives.

>  I'll be updating the new FAQ with one more point, the Firefox bug
>  number (closed for 2.0) referring to this problem, and posting it
>  shortly.  Unless yet *another* booby-trap trips me up yet *again*.

I'll keep an eye out for it.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Sep  6 00:07:48 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 17:07:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
References: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
Message-ID: <p06240506c123a4bbd685@[10.0.1.210]>

At 5:41 PM -0400 2006-09-05, Ken Winter wrote:

>  The config_list utility doesn't include the "public HTML pages" (most
>  importantly for me, the "General List Information Page") as part of the
>  configuration that it copies from one list to another.  Since I have
>  drastically customized my List Info Page, this rather impedes
>  cloning my lists.

So far as I know, the config_list tool only captures those items 
which are stored in the Python pickle which contains what Mailman 
thinks of as the list configuration items.  This specifically does 
not include any customized HTML templates, or any other modifications 
which are not reflected in the Python pickle.

>  1. Is there some way to get config_list to do this?

Not that I know of, at least not without making source-code level 
changes to the tool.

>  2. If not, is there some other utility that does it?

Not that I know of.

>  3. If not, is there some easier way to do it than opening the "source" and
>  "target" lists in the administrator web sites and cutting-and-pasting the
>  HTML from one to the other?

If you have privileged command-line access to the server in question, 
then you should be able to copy over customized HTML templates.

Other than that, I don't have any answers for you.  Perhaps one of 
the core Mailman developers will see your question and be able to 
give you a better response.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Sep  6 00:37:03 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 15:37:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <p06240506c123a4bbd685@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
	<p06240506c123a4bbd685@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060905152124.03752900@crimson-dragon.com>

Brad Knowles sent the message below at 15:07 9/5/2006:
>At 5:41 PM -0400 2006-09-05, Ken Winter wrote:
>
> >  3. If not, is there some easier way to do it than opening the "source" and
> >  "target" lists in the administrator web sites and cutting-and-pasting the
> >  HTML from one to the other?
>
>If you have privileged command-line access to the server in question,
>then you should be able to copy over customized HTML templates.
>
>Other than that, I don't have any answers for you.  Perhaps one of
>the core Mailman developers will see your question and be able to
>give you a better response.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

I found out almost by accident that if you have edited the list info 
page, it is stored in an HTML file called listinfo.html under the 
list directory in a directory named for the default list language (I 
believe...)

So on my system (using the default mailman install location) for one 
of my lists, this file exists on the following path:

         /usr/local/mailman/lists/listname/en

The other files you can edit via the web interface are stored in the 
same place.

Those files are:

         options.html
         subscribe.html
         subscribeack.txt

It appears that the default versions for these live in the templates 
directory for the list default language. On my system:

         /usr/local/mailman/templates/en

I do not know for certain how this works for lists with multiple 
languages enabled. However, I suspect that a similar method is used 
and there is a sub-directory with the appropriate ISO language code 
under the lists/listname directory.

I also do not know if it would work if you put custom versions of any 
other template files in that sub-directory. It would be a nice way to 
do list-specific versions of templates if that does work.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From liyasmm at gmail.com  Wed Sep  6 02:06:32 2006
From: liyasmm at gmail.com (liyas_m m)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 08:06:32 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailing list does not work
Message-ID: <2452665f0609051706q6eaa1c92o92d24520a81f6ec4@mail.gmail.com>

I have around 50 mailing lists on the xserve (running mailman)..all
are working except one.
check_perms -f had been done

log files do not show anything sgnificant...no failures were shown,
but the list (non-working one) just does not relay email to its
members.
Any idea?


From doug at sbscomp.net  Wed Sep  6 07:05:02 2006
From: doug at sbscomp.net (Douglas G. Phillips)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 01:05:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman/Qmail/Plesk Problem
Message-ID: <20060906010502.eyux3ept1k4wsssw@sbscomp.net>

OK,

I've got another problem with Qmail/Plesk/Mailman (same customer,  
rebuilt server).  Plesk is 7.5.4 reloaded.

Mail delivered fails with "need GID 110 got 101" error.  I set up the  
brute-force wrapper to deliver with GID 110, and set the permissions  
correctly for it to work.  Now, I'm getting the following (broken up  
into multiple lines for courtesy):

qmail: 1157518628.995172 delivery 726: success:  
group_mismatch_error._Mailman_expected_the_mail_wrapper_script_to_be/
executed_as_one_of_the_following_groups:/[mail,_nobody,_mailman],/
but_the_system's_mail_server_executed_the_mail_script_as_group:_"popuser"./
Try_tweaking_the_mail_server_to_run_the_script_as_one_of_these_groups:/
[mail,_nobody,_mailman],/or_re-run_configure_providing_the_
command_line_option:/'--with-mail-gid=popuser'./Failed_to_start_
/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman./did_0+0+1/

I'm about ready to pull my hair out.  I even added the popuser user to  
the mailman group in /etc/passwd.

So, that being said, are there any ideas out there?  I have been  
messing with this for a week, and have not come up with anything else  
to do.

-- 
Douglas G. Phillips
Simple Business Solutions

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.




From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Sep  6 07:30:23 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 14:30:23 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <p06240506c123a4bbd685@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
	<p06240506c123a4bbd685@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <17662.23791.133058.581689@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brad Knowles writes:

 > So far as I know, the config_list tool only captures those items 
 > which are stored in the Python pickle which contains what Mailman 
 > thinks of as the list configuration items.

Kinda miserly of it, isn't it?<wink>

 > >  1. Is there some way to get config_list to do this?
 > 
 > Not that I know of, at least not without making source-code level 
 > changes to the tool.

This really ought to be fixed.  I don't know if the templates are even
stored in there (I thought they were on the file system somewhere) but
there are a number of other things that would be nice to have a better
interface than "bin/with_list" for, like recording/setting the list's
pipeline.  But config_list knows only about a subset of configuration
variables.

Maybe I can work on it later this week.

 > >  2. If not, is there some other utility that does it?
 > 
 > Not that I know of.

"bin/with_list" will allow you to get and set those attributes if you
know what the attribute is in the pickle.

Unfortunately my python is rusty or I'd give you a wrapper, but it
shouldn't be too hard to get bin/with_list to spit out the value you
want on stdout and pipe it to another instance of bin/with_list to
write to the target list.

Steve



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Sep  6 08:37:28 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 01:37:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <17662.23791.133058.581689@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
	<p06240506c123a4bbd685@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17662.23791.133058.581689@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <p06240509c12419231ea1@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:30 PM +0900 2006-09-06, <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

>  > >  1. Is there some way to get config_list to do this?
>  >
>  > Not that I know of, at least not without making source-code level
>  > changes to the tool.
>
>  This really ought to be fixed.  I don't know if the templates are even
>  stored in there (I thought they were on the file system somewhere) but
>  there are a number of other things that would be nice to have a better
>  interface than "bin/with_list" for, like recording/setting the list's
>  pipeline.

The templates are stored in the filesystem, in a variety of different 
places depending on whether you're talking about the standard 
as-shipped language dependent versions, the standard as-shipped 
language independent versions, the site-wide language independent 
versions, site-wide language dependent versions, list-specific 
language independent versions, or list-specific language dependent 
versions, and that's just the six different potential combinations 
that I can come up with off the top of my head -- I'm pretty sure 
that there are some others that I haven't thought of.

How you would pick and choose which specific templates are to be 
considered as part of the configuration for a given list would be a 
complex subject.  Do you copy the site-wide versions or not?  If you 
do copy them, do you install them in the list-specific locations on 
the other end, or do you install them in the appropriate site-wide 
location?  And what if there are conflicts?


This starts to get real messy, real quick.

>  But config_list knows only about a subset of configuration variables.

Right.  My understanding is that templates are not considered part of 
a list configuration, and config_list has always seemed to me to be 
kind of a quick-n-dirty tool, and never intended to be a 
be-all/do-all 1000000% perfect list duplication management system.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Sep  6 12:00:17 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 19:00:17 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <p06240509c12419231ea1@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
	<p06240506c123a4bbd685@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17662.23791.133058.581689@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06240509c12419231ea1@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <17662.39985.918819.849922@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brad Knowles writes:
 > At 2:30 PM +0900 2006-09-06, <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
 > 
 > The templates are stored in the filesystem, in a variety of different 
 > places depending on [all kinds o' things].
 > 
 > How you would pick and choose which specific templates are to be 
 > considered as part of the configuration for a given list would be a 
 > complex subject.  Do you copy the site-wide versions or not?  If you 
 > do copy them, do you install them in the list-specific locations on 
 > the other end, or do you install them in the appropriate site-wide 
 > location?  And what if there are conflicts?
 > 
 > This starts to get real messy, real quick.

Yep.  That's why I mentioned "work on it" and "later".  However, I
have an itch.  A few thoughts in case anybody would like to comment
before I start scratching.

0. For most admins, Mailman is a small fraction of their job, and a
problem is just knowing where stuff is.  I don't even know which files
the lists configs are in unless I think about it; I just use
bin/with_list.  A tool should be optionally able to tell you where to
find stuff related to a list (sorta like pkg-config does), as well as
operating on it.

1. There should be a distinction between "factory defaults" and "site
wide" (a la Defaults and mm_cfg).  If there's a site-wide config !=
factory default, the tool should notify the user, and offer to copy it
(only to a different installation).  The admin should be given the
choice of a list-specific copy or a site-wide copy.

2. If there are conflicts, the admin gets a menu.  I really don't
think this need be that hard, there should be a short list of
available sources, and a short list (usually only one, ie, for stuff
stored in the config pickle) of targets.  In most cases the admin will
want the most specific, that's why he chose that list to clone.

 > Right.  My understanding is that templates are not considered part of 
 > a list configuration, and config_list has always seemed to me to be 
 > kind of a quick-n-dirty tool, and never intended to be a 
 > be-all/do-all 1000000% perfect list duplication management system.

Sure.  Maybe it's time (for me) to try to bump 50% to 80% or 90%
though.  Anyway, that's what I'm thinking. :-)

Cheers!

Steve



From suuuper at messinalug.org  Wed Sep  6 12:24:42 2006
From: suuuper at messinalug.org (Suuuper)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 12:24:42 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix and mailman content filter issue
Message-ID: <200609061224.45216.suuuper@messinalug.org>

Hi all,
I'm having troubles in making a content_filter for postfix for mail
archiving.
My filter works like this:

- Postfix passes the mail in pipe
- The mail is saved on a spool directory
- The script parses all parameters (sender and recipient)
- The mail is saved in a directory (e.g. /var/foo/user), and if it doesn't
exist, it creates it
- The mail is sent back to postfix via "sendmail" command

I call the filter in master.cf with the following line:

arch ? ?unix ? ?- ? ? ? n ? ? ? n ? ? ? - ? ? ? - ? ? ? pipe
? flags=Rq user=filter argv=/etc/postfix/filter/archivizione.pl -f
${sender} --
${recipient}

The problem is that this postfix also handles mailing lists specified in
/etc/aliases with the aid of mailman
e.g.:


test: ? ? ? ? ? ? ?"|/var/mailman/mail/mailman post test"
team: ? ? ? ? ? ? ?"|/var/mailman/mail/mailman post team"
hello: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman post hello"


If an email is sent to a mailing list, the filter instead of archiving it
in each user's maildir, archives in a directory that calls
"listname at domain.it"

Any suggestions to solve this?

Thanks in advance


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From anne.ramey at ncmail.net  Wed Sep  6 15:13:54 2006
From: anne.ramey at ncmail.net (Anne Ramey)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 09:13:54 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] new list--sort of
Message-ID: <44FEC992.2030401@ncmail.net>

OK, here is an interesting one.  I recently moved all the lists and my 
perl admin interface (for other things, not mailman list admin) to a new 
server.  Both independantly seem to be running fine, but they seem to 
refuse to interface.  If I try and do a newlist from my program, I get 
the mail, but the list is not created.  I find this behavior especially 
puzzling.  My perl program can run /usr/local/mailman/bin/list_lists 
even though apache (who it runs as) can run it fine.  I just gets no 
response.

./check_perms -f
No problems found

I've checked and double checked my permissions, both with the mailman's 
check_perms and by looking.  It all looks right to me.  Does anyone have 
any idea what might be going on here. or anything else I should try?

btw, the perl program can successfully execute other shell commands.

Anne

From antennex at swbell.net  Wed Sep  6 15:45:29 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 06:45:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running large announce list & forums
Message-ID: <20060906134529.85234.qmail@web82410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Folks:
  Being a nuB to Mailman (but old hand with majordomo), I have noted that if a message is being processed out to one of the large customer announcement lists (10,000+) that it seems the separate discussion lists' deliveries slow down substanially -- from minutes to hours! One member report 18 hours from post to receipt.
   
  I've read most of the "tuning" methods, but have not seen anything that might be best for this, except I *think* I have noticed a speedup if I don't use "personalized" stuff, like on the footers. I know it switches from processing individual messages to batches. Just wonder if that really is the main culprit.
   
  The "hours" mentioned above occurred when using personalized footers. The announcement lists still slow down things.
   
  I use sendmail on FBSD-6.x and latest Mailman 2.8x
   
  Just wondered what others have done with this type issue. I have read most of the "slow" message archives.
   
  PS: I have found that if I move a copy of any needed global "templates" to
  ../lists/somelist/en
  and that modified version will be used, which is great for customizing.


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From dd-b at dd-b.net  Wed Sep  6 17:39:40 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 10:39:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <p06240509c12419231ea1@10.0.1.210>
References: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
	<p06240506c123a4bbd685@10.0.1.210>
	<17662.23791.133058.581689@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06240509c12419231ea1@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609060839u19986ef7o5f59053ef4bc071a@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/6/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:

> The templates are stored in the filesystem, in a variety of different
> places depending on whether you're talking about the standard
> as-shipped language dependent versions, the standard as-shipped
> language independent versions, the site-wide language independent
> versions, site-wide language dependent versions, list-specific
> language independent versions, or list-specific language dependent
> versions, and that's just the six different potential combinations
> that I can come up with off the top of my head -- I'm pretty sure
> that there are some others that I haven't thought of.

I didn't even know there *were* list-specific versions of that; could
you tell me where they end up if they're created?  (I hadn't
customized my fake installation at the list level, so the directories
probably didn't exist in it, so I didn't find them, is my immediate
guess.   I'm currently doing my customizing at the top level.  Not
that it matters in a temporary installation used once to transform old
archive mbox files into the html archive pages; but it's *inelegant*
and I should fix it.

> How you would pick and choose which specific templates are to be
> considered as part of the configuration for a given list would be a
> complex subject.  Do you copy the site-wide versions or not?  If you
> do copy them, do you install them in the list-specific locations on
> the other end, or do you install them in the appropriate site-wide
> location?  And what if there are conflicts?

Yes, this is potentially a conflict.  Although if you're copying a
list within a site, the site-level stuff above it will remain the
same.

A scheme that copied the list-specific stuff across all langugages
when a list was copied would probably be very usable.

> This starts to get real messy, real quick.
>
> >  But config_list knows only about a subset of configuration variables.
>
> Right.  My understanding is that templates are not considered part of
> a list configuration, and config_list has always seemed to me to be
> kind of a quick-n-dirty tool, and never intended to be a
> be-all/do-all 1000000% perfect list duplication management system.

I see stuff about expanding (and making less weirdly inconsistent!)
the template scheme as future work items.   We should check and see if
that includes addressing the issue of copying a list in a more elegant
way.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From Jason.Cavener at rci.rogers.com  Wed Sep  6 19:08:03 2006
From: Jason.Cavener at rci.rogers.com (Jason Cavener)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 13:08:03 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Small list takes several days for emails to reach
	recipients
Message-ID: <985DD03487FF2B44B57F8CD050200A3801A785C8@rssesngtambb.rci.rogers.ca>

> Mailman ver : 2.1.7	
> Install method : CPANEL "create mailing list" (hosting service)
> Server OS : Linux Kernel version 2.6.17.6hg
> MTA : sendmail
> 
> With 10 members on a list that processes small text messages, it is
> taking many days for recipients to receive email.  Started happening a
> couple of months ago for reason unknown.  Sound familiar?
> Suggestions?  I am technically savvy but am new to Mailman.
> 
> Your help is appreciated and will go toward helping the management of
> the world's next greatest rock band with songs like "La Poutine" and
> "Hip-Hoperation".
> 
> 
> 
> Jason Cavener
> Sr. Consultant Online Learning
> Learning Technologies Team
> Sales and Service Training
> Rogers Communications Group
> ( 416) 935-2311
> PIN: 2039911E
> Cell: (416) 725-8576
> Email: jason.cavener at rci.rogers.com
> 


From ken at sunward.org  Wed Sep  6 19:43:56 2006
From: ken at sunward.org (Ken Winter)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 13:43:56 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609060839u19986ef7o5f59053ef4bc071a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c6d1dc$07efe390$6703a8c0@kenxp>

Thanks for the responses on copying customized HTML files.  

Dragon was right about the location of customized files:
/usr/local/mailman/lists/<listname>/<language>/.  Alas, I don't have the
permissions to write to those dirs, so it's back to cut-and-paste on the web
site.

Some other comments are inserted below.

~ Ken

    On 9/6/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
    
    > The templates are stored in the filesystem, in a variety of different
    > places depending on whether you're talking about the standard
    > as-shipped language dependent versions, the standard as-shipped
    > language independent versions, the site-wide language independent
    > versions, site-wide language dependent versions, list-specific
    > language independent versions, or list-specific language dependent
    > versions, and that's just the six different potential combinations
    > that I can come up with off the top of my head -- I'm pretty sure
    > that there are some others that I haven't thought of.
    
    I didn't even know there *were* list-specific versions of that; could
    you tell me where they end up if they're created?  

Mine (for an English language list) are in
/usr/local/mailman/lists/<listname>/en/<docname, e.g. listinfo.html>.  I
assume that if you have different languages you have to customize your HTML
pages separately for each language.
    
    > How you would pick and choose which specific templates are to be
    > considered as part of the configuration for a given list would be a
    > complex subject.  

If all of a list's customized HTML pages are under
/usr/local/mailman/lists/<listname>/<language>/, they are part of that
list's configuration, and should be copied to the corresponding dirs for the
target list's.

    > Do you copy the site-wide versions or not?  

I'm not sure where these live or how they get established.  If there is such
a thing as a site-wide configuration, I'd say cloning (copying) that
configuration to another site would be a separate operation or utility from
cloning (copying) a list's configuration.  The latter, whether between sites
or within a site, should take just that list's specific configuration
(including customized HTML files), leaving the list to inherit the target
site's factor-installed or site-wide configuration that have not been
customized for this list. 

    > If you
    > do copy them, do you install them in the list-specific locations on
    > the other end, or do you install them in the appropriate site-wide
    > location?  

In the site-wide location(s), whatever they may be.

    > And what if there are conflicts?

Since a particular HTML file appears in
/usr/local/mailman/lists/<listname>/<language>/ only if it has been
customized, I don't see how there could be any conflicts.  If a page has
note been customized, wouldn't that list just inherit the site's version of
that page?

~ Ken




From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Sep  6 20:21:22 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 11:21:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <002f01c6d1dc$07efe390$6703a8c0@kenxp>
References: <34a783b20609060839u19986ef7o5f59053ef4bc071a@mail.gmail.com>
	<002f01c6d1dc$07efe390$6703a8c0@kenxp>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060906110833.07b531b8@crimson-dragon.com>

Ken Winter did speak thusly:
>Thanks for the responses on copying customized HTML files.

You are welcome and I am surprised that this has not been discussed before.

This is something that really deserves a FAQ entry. If I have time 
later to do so, I may work one up. If not, and somebody else has the 
motivation, go for it.

>Dragon was right about the location of customized files:
>/usr/local/mailman/lists/<listname>/<language>/.  Alas, I don't have the
>permissions to write to those dirs, so it's back to cut-and-paste on the web
>site.

Well that is a problem. :-(

Can you get one of the server admins to do it for you or to add you 
to the mailman group so you can?

>Some other comments are inserted below.

Likewise.

>~ Ken
>
>     On 9/6/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
>
>     > The templates are stored in the filesystem, in a variety of different
>     > places depending on whether you're talking about the standard
>     > as-shipped language dependent versions, the standard as-shipped
>     > language independent versions, the site-wide language independent
>     > versions, site-wide language dependent versions, list-specific
>     > language independent versions, or list-specific language dependent
>     > versions, and that's just the six different potential combinations
>     > that I can come up with off the top of my head -- I'm pretty sure
>     > that there are some others that I haven't thought of.
>
>     I didn't even know there *were* list-specific versions of that; could
>     you tell me where they end up if they're created?
>
>Mine (for an English language list) are in
>/usr/local/mailman/lists/<listname>/en/<docname, e.g. listinfo.html>.  I
>assume that if you have different languages you have to customize your HTML
>pages separately for each language.

That seems to be the case but I have not tested this out or dug into 
the code to confirm.

>     > How you would pick and choose which specific templates are to be
>     > considered as part of the configuration for a given list would be a
>     > complex subject.
>
>If all of a list's customized HTML pages are under
>/usr/local/mailman/lists/<listname>/<language>/, they are part of that
>list's configuration, and should be copied to the corresponding dirs for the
>target list's.

That would seem to be the logical course of action. Since these 
customized versions are under each list directory, it should be a 
fairly simple matter to modify the code to copy them to the new list directory.

>     > Do you copy the site-wide versions or not?
>
>I'm not sure where these live or how they get established.  If there is such
>a thing as a site-wide configuration, I'd say cloning (copying) that
>configuration to another site would be a separate operation or utility from
>cloning (copying) a list's configuration.  The latter, whether between sites
>or within a site, should take just that list's specific configuration
>(including customized HTML files), leaving the list to inherit the target
>site's factor-installed or site-wide configuration that have not been
>customized for this list.

The site-wide templates for each language are located on my system in 
the directory /usr/local/mailman/templates/<language>

These would not have to be copied because they act as the default. In 
theory, these files are the "factory default" version unless you 
modify them. Since I have custom versions of these files in the 
default directory, my only "factory default" versions are those in 
the source distribution.

The unfortunate thing here is that when I upgrade from one version to 
the next, I have to back up my versions, do the install which 
overwrites my files and then copy my files back. I suppose I ought to 
do a diff and create a patch file to make this easier in the long run.

>     > If you
>     > do copy them, do you install them in the list-specific locations on
>     > the other end, or do you install them in the appropriate site-wide
>     > location?
>
>In the site-wide location(s), whatever they may be.

As stated above, this is /usr/local/mailman/templates/<language>

>     > And what if there are conflicts?
>
>Since a particular HTML file appears in
>/usr/local/mailman/lists/<listname>/<language>/ only if it has been
>customized, I don't see how there could be any conflicts.  If a page has
>note been customized, wouldn't that list just inherit the site's version of
>that page?

That appears to be the case.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From ohanyan at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 00:31:49 2006
From: ohanyan at gmail.com (Nerses Ohanyan)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 15:31:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Writing a Mailman Script
Message-ID: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>

I have a python script that can process an ascii text file, but I want
to run this script for one of my mailing lists, so that it processes
the e-mail message (the script populates my database).  Where can I
find help with details about writing python scripts to be inserted in
a mailing list pipeline.

i.e.  I know my code should have all the includes (mm_cfg, etc...) and
def process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
BUT i do not know what kind of objects mlist, msg and msgdata are,
what their properties are and how to simply retreive the e-mail text
in simple ascii format.

Thank you for your help.


From marvictextiles1 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  7 01:21:53 2006
From: marvictextiles1 at yahoo.com (Kelvin Hamenya)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 16:21:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I will like to activate my account...
Message-ID: <20060906232153.41329.qmail@web57113.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I will like to activate my account...thanks
 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From myzmailbox at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 02:48:57 2006
From: myzmailbox at gmail.com (myzmailbox)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:48:57 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-admin@domain bounces
Message-ID: <B62B6E4B-67E3-44D6-8F11-5376E48D371F@gmail.com>

I couldn't find this in the archives, sorry if this has been asked &  
answered...

Does anyone know if I can change the default behavior of the -admin  
address so that messages sent to listname-admin at domain.org are  
actually sent to the administrators and NOT bounced?

If not, is there another list address that can be used to reach only  
the subscribers designated as list administrators?

Thanks in advance.



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 03:33:03 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:33:03 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix and mailman content filter issue
In-Reply-To: <200609061224.45216.suuuper@messinalug.org>
References: <200609061224.45216.suuuper@messinalug.org>
Message-ID: <p0624050bc12526f199ec@[10.0.1.210]>

At 12:24 PM +0200 2006-09-06, Suuuper wrote:

>  If an email is sent to a mailing list, the filter instead of archiving it
>  in each user's maildir, archives in a directory that calls
>  "listname at domain.it"

This sounds to me like a pure postfix issue, having to do with the 
way your filter is implemented and how that interacts with aliases. 
I don't think it matters what the alias is used for, which would be 
Mailman in this case.

I believe you're more likely to get useful support on this question 
from the postfix-users mailing list, and from looking at their FAQ, 
their documentation, etc....

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 03:40:23 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:40:23 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running large announce list & forums
In-Reply-To: <20060906134529.85234.qmail@web82410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060906134529.85234.qmail@web82410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p0624050cc1252784bc5d@[10.0.1.210]>

At 6:45 AM -0700 2006-09-06, Jack Stone wrote:

>   Being a nuB to Mailman (but old hand with majordomo), I have noted that if
>  a message is being processed out to one of the large customer announcement
>  lists (10,000+) that it seems the separate discussion lists' deliveries
>  slow down substanially -- from minutes to hours! One member report 18
>  hours from post to receipt.

That could be a result of a slowdown within the Mailman queue 
processing system, or it could be a slowdown within the queue 
processing system of sendmail, once the message it out of the hands 
of Mailman.

To figure out which is which, you've got to look at the date/time 
stamps for given messages in the Mailman logs and compare those to 
the corresponding date/time stamps of the messages in the sendmail 
logs, as well as looking at the date/time stamps which are put inside 
the message itself in the "Received:" headers.

If there's a huge delay between the date/time stamp placed on the 
message by sendmail when it first gets the message from Mailman, and 
when that message for that recipient is delivered (as recorded in the 
sendmail logs), then you know that the delay is within the sendmail 
queue processing system, and you can apply all the appropriate system 
tuning procedures that are specific to that MTA.

Conversely, if there is a big gap between the logged date/time stamp 
for a given message in the Mailman logs and the delay is short 
between when sendmail records having received that message from 
Mailman and when sendmail then turns around and records that message 
as being delivered, then you know that the delay is internal to 
Mailman, and you might need to do certain other things to speed up 
the process.

>   I've read most of the "tuning" methods, but have not seen anything that
>  might be best for this, except I *think* I have noticed a speedup if I
>  don't use "personalized" stuff, like on the footers. I know it switches
>  from processing individual messages to batches. Just wonder if that really
>  is the main culprit.

That could just be because you're handling a much smaller number of 
individual messages, and doesn't really tell us if the root cause of 
the delay is internal to sendmail or if it's internal to Mailman.  We 
need more information.

>   Just wondered what others have done with this type issue. I have read most
>  of the "slow" message archives.

Without more information, it's difficult to tell.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 03:43:57 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:43:57 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609060839u19986ef7o5f59053ef4bc071a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
	<p06240506c123a4bbd685@10.0.1.210>
	<17662.23791.133058.581689@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06240509c12419231ea1@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609060839u19986ef7o5f59053ef4bc071a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0624050dc12529382289@[10.0.1.210]>

At 10:39 AM -0500 2006-09-06, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>  I didn't even know there *were* list-specific versions of that; could
>  you tell me where they end up if they're created?

The list specific stuff would be under the /usr/local/mailman/lists 
directory.  So, for example, it might be 
/usr/local/mailman/lists/example for templates that are not 
language-specific, and /usr/local/mailman/lists/example/en for 
templates that are specific to English, and 
/usr/local/mailman/lists/example/fr for templates that are specific 
to French, etc....

At least, I think that's the right path.  I haven't confirmed this 
with the information in the documentation or the FAQ with regard to 
templates, and we don't have any list-specific templates that I know 
of on any of the lists I help to administer.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 03:46:45 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:46:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Small list takes several days for emails to
 reach recipients
In-Reply-To: <985DD03487FF2B44B57F8CD050200A3801A785C8@rssesngtambb.rci.rogers.ca>
References: <985DD03487FF2B44B57F8CD050200A3801A785C8@rssesngtambb.rci.rogers.ca>
Message-ID: <p0624050ec1252a02520b@[10.0.1.210]>

At 1:08 PM -0400 2006-09-06, Jason Cavener wrote:

>>  Mailman ver : 2.1.7
>>  Install method : CPANEL "create mailing list" (hosting service)
>>  Server OS : Linux Kernel version 2.6.17.6hg
>>  MTA : sendmail

See FAQs 1.32 and 6.11, respectively.

>>  With 10 members on a list that processes small text messages, it is
>>  taking many days for recipients to receive email.  Started happening a
>>  couple of months ago for reason unknown.  Sound familiar?
>>  Suggestions?  I am technically savvy but am new to Mailman.

There's virtually no technical information here.  You'd have to 
provide a lot more details before we'd be likely to be able to 
provide any assistance.  Right now, all we can say is that it does 
appear you have a problem.

At the very least, I suggest you read all of the FAQ entries that 
mention the keywords "performance" and "sendmail".

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 03:53:39 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:53:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060906110833.07b531b8@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <34a783b20609060839u19986ef7o5f59053ef4bc071a@mail.gmail.com>
	<002f01c6d1dc$07efe390$6703a8c0@kenxp>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060906110833.07b531b8@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <p0624050fc1252b7eaadf@[10.0.1.210]>

At 11:21 AM -0700 2006-09-06, Dragon wrote:

>  The site-wide templates for each language are located on my system in
>  the directory /usr/local/mailman/templates/<language>

That's the location for the as-shipped default templates, which will 
get over-written on the next re-install.

>  These would not have to be copied because they act as the default. In
>  theory, these files are the "factory default" version unless you
>  modify them. Since I have custom versions of these files in the
>  default directory, my only "factory default" versions are those in
>  the source distribution.

FAQ 4.48 says you should install these under 
/usr/local/mailman/templates/<list.host_name>/<language> (for 
domain-specific customized templates that are on a system supporting 
multiple domains), or /usr/local/mailman/templates/site/<language> 
(for customized templates that would be common to all domains served 
by a given system).

>  The unfortunate thing here is that when I upgrade from one version to
>  the next, I have to back up my versions, do the install which
>  overwrites my files and then copy my files back. I suppose I ought to
>  do a diff and create a patch file to make this easier in the long run.

If you follow the layout recommended by FAQ 4.48, that should no 
longer be a problem.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 03:56:25 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:56:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Writing a Mailman Script
In-Reply-To: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>
References: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240510c1252c65e12f@[10.0.1.210]>

At 3:31 PM -0700 2006-09-06, Nerses Ohanyan wrote:

>  I have a python script that can process an ascii text file, but I want
>  to run this script for one of my mailing lists, so that it processes
>  the e-mail message (the script populates my database).  Where can I
>  find help with details about writing python scripts to be inserted in
>  a mailing list pipeline.

You're looking for a custom handler.  Unfortunately, there don't 
appear to be any FAQs addressing this issue, but I do know that this 
subject has been discussed many times on the mailman-users and 
mailman-developers lists, so you should search the archives.

When you find posts that provide the information you need, please 
feel free to create a suitable entry for the subject in the 
community-supported FAQ Wizard.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 03:57:16 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:57:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-admin@domain bounces
In-Reply-To: <B62B6E4B-67E3-44D6-8F11-5376E48D371F@gmail.com>
References: <B62B6E4B-67E3-44D6-8F11-5376E48D371F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240511c1252cd5fb5d@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:48 PM -0400 2006-09-06, myzmailbox wrote:

>  Does anyone know if I can change the default behavior of the -admin
>  address so that messages sent to listname-admin at domain.org are
>  actually sent to the administrators and NOT bounced?

I'm not sure, but that might be an old address format that was used 
with Mailman 2.0.x, but is no longer used with Mailman 2.1.x.

>  If not, is there another list address that can be used to reach only
>  the subscribers designated as list administrators?

Try listname-owner.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From ohanyan at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 04:47:23 2006
From: ohanyan at gmail.com (Nerses Ohanyan)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 19:47:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Writing a Mailman Script
In-Reply-To: <p06240510c1252c65e12f@10.0.1.210>
References: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240510c1252c65e12f@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <101282d10609061947r1ebc845aibc3d155bc23e98fe@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks.  I looked at the archives, but so far I'm not seeing anything
particularly useful.  Does anyone know what exactly is being passed to
my handler?  does anyone know where msg, mlist and msgdata are defined
(or the appropriate variables) ?   Not even sure I'm making sense.

I'll keep digging and if I find anything I'll post.

Thanks again Brad.

On 9/6/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 3:31 PM -0700 2006-09-06, Nerses Ohanyan wrote:
>
> >  I have a python script that can process an ascii text file, but I want
> >  to run this script for one of my mailing lists, so that it processes
> >  the e-mail message (the script populates my database).  Where can I
> >  find help with details about writing python scripts to be inserted in
> >  a mailing list pipeline.
>
> You're looking for a custom handler.  Unfortunately, there don't
> appear to be any FAQs addressing this issue, but I do know that this
> subject has been discussed many times on the mailman-users and
> mailman-developers lists, so you should search the archives.
>
> When you find posts that provide the information you need, please
> feel free to create a suitable entry for the subject in the
> community-supported FAQ Wizard.
>
> --
> Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
>
> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
> temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
>
>      -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
>      Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
>
>   Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.
>


From antennex at swbell.net  Thu Sep  7 05:11:27 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:11:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running large announce list & forums
In-Reply-To: <p0624050cc1252784bc5d@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060907031127.86883.qmail@web82412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:    At 6:45 AM -0700 2006-09-06, Jack Stone wrote:

> Being a nuB to Mailman (but old hand with majordomo), I have noted that if
> a message is being processed out to one of the large customer announcement
> lists (10,000+) that it seems the separate discussion lists' deliveries
> slow down substanially -- from minutes to hours! One member report 18
> hours from post to receipt.

  <snip/>
That could be a result of a slowdown within the Mailman queue 
processing system, or it could be a slowdown within the queue 
processing system of sendmail, once the message it out of the hands 
of Mailman.
-- 
Brad Knowles, 

<snip>
   
  I'll have to check on the things you suggested, but just a quick response without more specifics, I've noticed it takes a long, long time for the announcement list to reach the sendmail queue -- and the "qfiles/out" is usually choked with queued messages for quite a while. It appears the discussion list has to wait in line..
   
  By past experience with majordomo, it would "cook" the big one-way announcement list for a couple hours, but still send out the discussion postings (plus regular user mail) immediately without delay -- and although the dam would burst into sendmail queue from the eventual fully-cooked (batched) announcements (10,000+), it would still pass all other requests to sendmail's queue.
   
  I know this is not majordomo, just looking for anything I may have mis-configured that may cause this delay. Sendmail has always handled my loads with ease -- all mail lists, plus individual users.
   
  I'll look at your notes more closely next.
   
  Thanks, Brad.



(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Sep  7 06:01:09 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 13:01:09 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Writing a Mailman Script
In-Reply-To: <p06240510c1252c65e12f@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240510c1252c65e12f@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <17663.39301.444398.644184@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brad Knowles writes:
 > At 3:31 PM -0700 2006-09-06, Nerses Ohanyan wrote:
 > 
 > >  I have a python script that can process an ascii text file, but I want
 > >  to run this script for one of my mailing lists, so that it processes
 > >  the e-mail message (the script populates my database).  Where can I
 > >  find help with details about writing python scripts to be inserted in
 > >  a mailing list pipeline.
 > 
 > You're looking for a custom handler.  Unfortunately, there don't 
 > appear to be any FAQs addressing this issue,

The basic thing you need to realize is that the email message is an
email.Message message.  See the documentation on that module in your
Python docs, or point pydoc at /usr/lib/python/email.  It's pretty
good.

Note that there is one method of the message object to recover the
original text, or maybe you can simply put the message object into a
string context, to process the whole thing.  Or, if you're
specifically looking at the body or headers, there are specific APIs
for them, but these return "cooked" Unicode strings.

Note that Mailman gets these messages raw.  Meta-data like envelope
information is stored in a separate object.  If you want to know that
stuff, you need to access that separately from the email.Message
object.

You will be running as the mailman user, I believe, so your database
will need to be writable by mailman.

One other hint is that Mailman assumes that most messages will go
through the pipeline to the end.  Thus there is liberal use of
exceptions to handle practically everything else: filtering spam,
moderation, etc.  What this means is that if (1) your code doesn't
infloop and (2) you don't change the message or meta-data objects in
any way, you can wrap your whole handler in "try: ...; except: pass"
and guarantee that it doesn't affect list delivery.

I remember that it was easy to create a new log simply by copying
existing logging code and giving it a new file name.  That can be
useful for debugging.  (Sorry, the disk that code was on went away a
week ago, but that should be enough to get you started.)

Store your code in a file, say PopulateDB, in the Handlers directory
of your Mailman installation.  Then for the list in question, do
something like

$ bin/withlist my-list
>>> import mm_cfg
>>> new_pipeline = mm_cfg.GLOBAL_PIPELINE
>>> new_pipeline.insert(10,'PopulateDB')
>>> m.Lock()
>>> m.pipeline = new_pipeline
>>> m.Save()
>>> m.Unlock()
>>> ^D
$

'm' is the MailList object.  Strictly speaking you don't need to
Unlock() it, withlist will do that, but I prefer to be pedantic.

'PopulateDB' is a suggested name.  I personally use a prefix to
identify my local handlers, but there are no community conventions for
this yet as far as I know.

I suggest 11th position because that's after a bunch of things like
spam detection that might throw out the message, but before Mailman
starts munging (AFAIK, you should check).  That may not be appropriate
(eg, if your database is going to be used in spam detection, you
probably want that Handler to be first!)

SpamDetect is probably a good Handler to model your local Handler on;
it also does textual analysis.

A final hint: bin/config_list does not know about the pipeline
attribute.  You'll need bin/withlist to access it, even just to read
it.

HTH

Steve

P.S. I'll eventually get around to posting this to the FAQ, but I've
already spent more time on email today than I should.  Feel free to
beat me to it!



From doug at sbscomp.net  Thu Sep  7 08:36:00 2006
From: doug at sbscomp.net (Douglas G. Phillips)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 01:36:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RESOLUTION: Mailman/Qmail/Plesk Problem
References: <20060906010502.eyux3ept1k4wsssw@sbscomp.net>
Message-ID: <000c01c6d247$e4416600$0301a8c0@endurance>

Prequalification: This may not work for everyone.  What I suspected is
that something in the mailman config was corrupted, or when the server
backups were restored, something was configured for the old server,
and was therefore different with the new one.  However, I noticed in
my research on this problem that there were a number of individuals
with strange issues like this, so hopefully this helps someone.

What I did:
Get a fresh copy of mailman (stock version), and compiled it, with the
expected mail gid and cgi gid used in this installation.  I then
installed it into a different working directory (/usr/local/mailman),
and copied the list configs and archives into this directory space.
Finally, I moved the plesk installation (/usr/lib/mailman) to a
different name and symlinked /usr/local/mailman to /usr/lib/mailman.

Everything is working fine now, including the plesk control panel.

So, at this point, I'm not sure whether plesk's version modifies
anything in mailman, or if they just have a front-end that manipulates
things somehow, but since it's [plesk] compiled PHP code, I won't find
out that way. But the customer is very happy, and at the moment,
that's all I am worried about... (And finally getting some sleep)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Phillips" <doug at sbscomp.net>
To: <mailman-users at python.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 12:05 AM
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman/Qmail/Plesk Problem


OK,

I've got another problem with Qmail/Plesk/Mailman (same customer,
rebuilt server).  Plesk is 7.5.4 reloaded.

Mail delivered fails with "need GID 110 got 101" error.  I set up the
brute-force wrapper to deliver with GID 110, and set the permissions
correctly for it to work.  Now, I'm getting the following (broken up
into multiple lines for courtesy):

qmail: 1157518628.995172 delivery 726: success:
group_mismatch_error._Mailman_expected_the_mail_wrapper_script_to_be/
executed_as_one_of_the_following_groups:/[mail,_nobody,_mailman],/
but_the_system's_mail_server_executed_the_mail_script_as_group:_"popus
er"./
Try_tweaking_the_mail_server_to_run_the_script_as_one_of_these_groups:
/
[mail,_nobody,_mailman],/or_re-run_configure_providing_the_
command_line_option:/'--with-mail-gid=popuser'./Failed_to_start_
/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman./did_0+0+1/

I'm about ready to pull my hair out.  I even added the popuser user to
the mailman group in /etc/passwd.

So, that being said, are there any ideas out there?  I have been
messing with this for a week, and have not come up with anything else
to do.

--
Douglas G. Phillips
Simple Business Solutions

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.






From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 10:24:35 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 03:24:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running large announce list & forums
In-Reply-To: <20060907031127.86883.qmail@web82412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060907031127.86883.qmail@web82412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240515c12584557d61@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:11 PM -0700 2006-09-06, Jack Stone wrote:

>  I'll have to check on the things you suggested, but just a quick
>  response without more specifics, I've noticed it takes a long, long
>  time for the announcement list to reach the sendmail queue -- and
>  the "qfiles/out" is usually choked with queued messages for quite a
>  while. It appears the discussion list has to wait in line..

In that case, it seems likely that your delay is in the Mailman queue 
management process, and not within sendmail.  In that case, I 
recently did a slight cleanup on some good stuff that Nigel 
Metheringham put into the FAQ Wizard for FAQ 6.6, and I'd recommend 
you take a look at it.

You may also want to look into running multiple queue runners. 
Within sendmail, this is not too difficult, but this is a pretty 
advanced concept for Mailman.  IIRC, Barry has had some things to say 
about this in the archives of the mailman-users or mailman-developers 
mailing lists, and I'd encourage you to search the archives.

>  By past experience with majordomo, it would "cook" the big one-way
>  announcement list for a couple hours, but still send out the
>  discussion postings (plus regular user mail) immediately without delay
>  -- and although the dam would burst into sendmail queue from the
>  eventual fully-cooked (batched) announcements (10,000+), it would
>  still pass all other requests to sendmail's queue.

The issue here is that Majordomo didn't have a separate queue 
management process for handling mail as it was being processed 
through the system.  Instead, they would fork a separate Majordomo 
process for each message that was posted, and then that process would 
be responsible for handling everything to do with processing that 
message, up to the point where everything was handed off to sendmail.

The Majordomo approach has good points and bad ones.  One bad point 
is that it requires a hell of a lot more memory because you can have 
a large number of simultaneous processes in memory at any given time, 
and each one of those processes could grow to gargantuan sizes for 
even a moderately sized list.  In addition, classic Majordomo didn't 
do any chunking of the messages being sent, which causes all the 
outgoing copies of a given incoming message to be single-threaded, 
and a slow site in the middle of the list of recipients could cause 
mail for all the following recipients to be greatly delayed.

Rob Kolstad and Strata Chalup both talked about tuning Majordomo and 
sendmail for large mailing lists in their respective papers, which I 
linked from FAQ 6.3.  If you really want to know the deep internals 
of how these things work (or sometimes don't work), I'd encourage you 
to read those papers.


In the long run, the Majordomo approach is not very scalable.  IMO, 
Mailman is more scalable, but because it has it's own internal queue 
processing system, it places different demands on the system and 
requires different types of tuning for maximum performance.

I've tried to collect as much wisdom as I can in the various FAQ 
entries which have the keyword "performance" in them, but the 
internal tuning of Mailman for maximum performance is still a pretty 
black art for most of us -- I can tune sendmail or postfix with the 
best of them, but I'm way out of my depth when it comes to tuning 
Mailman itself -- that's the kind of thing for which I'd have to turn 
to Barry.

>  I know this is not majordomo, just looking for anything I may have
>  mis-configured that may cause this delay. Sendmail has always handled
>  my loads with ease -- all mail lists, plus individual users.

I'm not convinced that there is anything Majordomo-specific that you 
may have done to your server(s) that causes it/them to be less 
suitable for use with Mailman, but then I don't know everything 
you've done to your server(s).

I can tell you, with some confidence, that I know of some areas 
within Mailman that I believe could be significant bottlenecks, and 
may take a fair bit of work to resolve.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From Eberle at notebook1x1.de  Thu Sep  7 12:24:31 2006
From: Eberle at notebook1x1.de (Thomas Eberle)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 12:24:31 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Google Mail and Mailman
Message-ID: <6e2fd8140609070324v4d1ff71ct6942e78d96853ae2@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I use Google Mail and Mailman where I have a list with 5000 members. All
these 5000 members get my message with the same subject line.
After I have sent the mail I get 100 answers and they all have the same
subject/reference line again. And what makes Google Mail?
It recognizes all these 100 answers as one thread.

Now the question: Is ist possible to individualize the subject line like
using a counter or placing a variable there that pulls the member's mail
address from the database
how it is standard in a mail merging software?

Kind Regards
Thomas Eberle
Germany


From catmaxx at berrach.com  Thu Sep  7 15:05:27 2006
From: catmaxx at berrach.com (Catherine Maxwell)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 08:05:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Google Mail and Mailman
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060907080521.0371b120@berrach.com>

At 05:24 AM 9/7/2006, Thomas Eberle wrote:
>Now the question: Is ist possible to individualize the subject line like
>using a counter or placing a variable there that pulls the member's mail
>address from the database how it is standard in a mail merging software?

You could try to use Python format strings but my guess is that 
Mailman will ignore them in the Subject: line.  You could place a 
header at the top (first line) of the body of the message which 
should help to identify each message as a unique message.

For example, in the Digest Options and Non-Digest Options, set the 
following in the header block:

        This message is delivered to %(user_name)s at %(user_delivered_to)s

This would result in the subscriber's name and subscribed email 
address to appear in the first line of the message body which should 
identify it as a unique message to each address delivered to the same ISP.

--Catherine  



From mjnf at uevora.pt  Thu Sep  7 15:57:01 2006
From: mjnf at uevora.pt (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1rio?= Filipe)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 14:57:01 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with digests
Message-ID: <1157637421.5161.43.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hello

I have two problems with digests, and maybe you can help me:

- on one mailing list some users complain that they don't get their own
posts when they get the digest. I've tried this on a test list and i get
my posts so my question is if there is any setting which i might have
overlooked that would cause this?

- I'm using debian testing and recently some lists fail to send the
messages. I believe it is related to character-sets and maybe python,
but maybe some of you have a better idea. This is what I get on the
trace:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 94, in ?
    main()
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 86, in main
    mlist.send_digest_now()
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Digester.py", line 60, in
send_digest_now
    ToDigest.send_digests(self, mboxfp)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/ToDigest.py", line 142, in
send_digests
    send_i18n_digests(mlist, mboxfp)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/ToDigest.py", line 324, in
send_i18n_digests
    msg = scrubber(mlist, msg)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 393, in
process
    replace_payload_by_text(msg, sep.join(text), charset)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 175, in
replace_payload_by_text
    msg.set_payload(text, charset)
  File "email/Message.py", line 218, in set_payload
  File "email/Message.py", line 242, in set_charset
TypeError: iso-8859-1


Thanks
-- 
        M?rio Filipe
        Servi?o de Computa??o da Universidade de ?vora
        mjnf at uevora.pt
        http://neptuno.sc.uevora.pt/~mjnf 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: Esta =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9?= uma parte de mensagem
	assinada digitalmente
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/attachments/20060907/ed102faa/attachment.pgp 

From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 16:27:09 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 09:27:09 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Google Mail and Mailman
In-Reply-To: <6e2fd8140609070324v4d1ff71ct6942e78d96853ae2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e2fd8140609070324v4d1ff71ct6942e78d96853ae2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240517c125dbef0547@[10.0.1.210]>

At 12:24 PM +0200 2006-09-07, Thomas Eberle wrote:

>  Now the question: Is ist possible to individualize the subject line like
>  using a counter or placing a variable there that pulls the member's mail
>  address from the database how it is standard in a mail merging software?

Mailman is not a mail-merge program.  Nor is it a customer-relations 
management program.  Nor does it have a user database, at least not 
the kind you're thinking of.  On these subjects, you should take a 
look at FAQ entries like 3.18, 3.37, and 3.40.

However, in FAQ 4.43, Tokio Kikichi mentions a patch which might be 
related to your question.

Nevertheless, I would suggest that you spend some time searching the 
FAQ and reading the various entries, to make sure that you've covered 
all your bases.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From thompson at bwcoe.com  Thu Sep  7 16:16:23 2006
From: thompson at bwcoe.com (Matthew Thompson)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 09:16:23 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Writing a Mailman Script
In-Reply-To: <101282d10609061947r1ebc845aibc3d155bc23e98fe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240510c1252c65e12f@10.0.1.210>
	<101282d10609061947r1ebc845aibc3d155bc23e98fe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200609070916.24183.thompson@bwcoe.com>

When I implemented a custom handler for my server, I followed this FAQ:
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.067.htp

Between that, the python docs that someone else mentioned and looking at the 
existing handlers in Mailman/Handlers I was able to get things going with 
little trouble.

Good luck,
-Matt

On Wednesday 06 September 2006 21:47, Nerses Ohanyan wrote:
> Thanks.  I looked at the archives, but so far I'm not seeing anything
> particularly useful.  Does anyone know what exactly is being passed to
> my handler?  does anyone know where msg, mlist and msgdata are defined
> (or the appropriate variables) ?   Not even sure I'm making sense.
>
> I'll keep digging and if I find anything I'll post.
>
> Thanks again Brad.
>
> On 9/6/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> > At 3:31 PM -0700 2006-09-06, Nerses Ohanyan wrote:
> > >  I have a python script that can process an ascii text file, but I want
> > >  to run this script for one of my mailing lists, so that it processes
> > >  the e-mail message (the script populates my database).  Where can I
> > >  find help with details about writing python scripts to be inserted in
> > >  a mailing list pipeline.
> >
> > You're looking for a custom handler.  Unfortunately, there don't
> > appear to be any FAQs addressing this issue, but I do know that this
> > subject has been discussed many times on the mailman-users and
> > mailman-developers lists, so you should search the archives.
> >
> > When you find posts that provide the information you need, please
> > feel free to create a suitable entry for the subject in the
> > community-supported FAQ Wizard.
> >
> > --
> > Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
> >
> > "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
> > temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
> >
> >      -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
> >      Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
> >
> >   Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From ohanyan at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 23:14:47 2006
From: ohanyan at gmail.com (Nerses Ohanyan)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 14:14:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Writing a Mailman Script
In-Reply-To: <101282d10609071103i3c6e2acdi66493ef6d6be9a3b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240510c1252c65e12f@10.0.1.210>
	<17663.39301.444398.644184@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<101282d10609071103i3c6e2acdi66493ef6d6be9a3b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <101282d10609071414q369c1246hf030794c089c1077@mail.gmail.com>

I have set up everything, but it simply doesn't work.  How can I debug
my code?  How can I see what the code is doing (i.e. can I print to
terminal?)

Thanks

On 9/7/06, Nerses Ohanyan <ohanyan at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you.  That's exactly what I needed to know.  Unfortunately, I'm
> really not an expert with python or mailman, so I hesitate to write
> FAQ documents, fearing that I might actually confuse someone rather
> then help them.
>
> Thanks.
>
> On 9/6/06, stephen at xemacs.org <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
> > Brad Knowles writes:
> >  > At 3:31 PM -0700 2006-09-06, Nerses Ohanyan wrote:
> >  >
> >  > >  I have a python script that can process an ascii text file, but I want
> >  > >  to run this script for one of my mailing lists, so that it processes
> >  > >  the e-mail message (the script populates my database).  Where can I
> >  > >  find help with details about writing python scripts to be inserted in
> >  > >  a mailing list pipeline.
> >  >
> >  > You're looking for a custom handler.  Unfortunately, there don't
> >  > appear to be any FAQs addressing this issue,
> >
> > The basic thing you need to realize is that the email message is an
> > email.Message message.  See the documentation on that module in your
> > Python docs, or point pydoc at /usr/lib/python/email.  It's pretty
> > good.
> >
> > Note that there is one method of the message object to recover the
> > original text, or maybe you can simply put the message object into a
> > string context, to process the whole thing.  Or, if you're
> > specifically looking at the body or headers, there are specific APIs
> > for them, but these return "cooked" Unicode strings.
> >
> > Note that Mailman gets these messages raw.  Meta-data like envelope
> > information is stored in a separate object.  If you want to know that
> > stuff, you need to access that separately from the email.Message
> > object.
> >
> > You will be running as the mailman user, I believe, so your database
> > will need to be writable by mailman.
> >
> > One other hint is that Mailman assumes that most messages will go
> > through the pipeline to the end.  Thus there is liberal use of
> > exceptions to handle practically everything else: filtering spam,
> > moderation, etc.  What this means is that if (1) your code doesn't
> > infloop and (2) you don't change the message or meta-data objects in
> > any way, you can wrap your whole handler in "try: ...; except: pass"
> > and guarantee that it doesn't affect list delivery.
> >
> > I remember that it was easy to create a new log simply by copying
> > existing logging code and giving it a new file name.  That can be
> > useful for debugging.  (Sorry, the disk that code was on went away a
> > week ago, but that should be enough to get you started.)
> >
> > Store your code in a file, say PopulateDB, in the Handlers directory
> > of your Mailman installation.  Then for the list in question, do
> > something like
> >
> > $ bin/withlist my-list
> > >>> import mm_cfg
> > >>> new_pipeline = mm_cfg.GLOBAL_PIPELINE
> > >>> new_pipeline.insert(10,'PopulateDB')
> > >>> m.Lock()
> > >>> m.pipeline = new_pipeline
> > >>> m.Save()
> > >>> m.Unlock()
> > >>> ^D
> > $
> >
> > 'm' is the MailList object.  Strictly speaking you don't need to
> > Unlock() it, withlist will do that, but I prefer to be pedantic.
> >
> > 'PopulateDB' is a suggested name.  I personally use a prefix to
> > identify my local handlers, but there are no community conventions for
> > this yet as far as I know.
> >
> > I suggest 11th position because that's after a bunch of things like
> > spam detection that might throw out the message, but before Mailman
> > starts munging (AFAIK, you should check).  That may not be appropriate
> > (eg, if your database is going to be used in spam detection, you
> > probably want that Handler to be first!)
> >
> > SpamDetect is probably a good Handler to model your local Handler on;
> > it also does textual analysis.
> >
> > A final hint: bin/config_list does not know about the pipeline
> > attribute.  You'll need bin/withlist to access it, even just to read
> > it.
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > P.S. I'll eventually get around to posting this to the FAQ, but I've
> > already spent more time on email today than I should.  Feel free to
> > beat me to it!
> >
> >
>


From antennex at swbell.net  Thu Sep  7 23:55:15 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running large announce list & forums
In-Reply-To: <p06240515c12584557d61@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060907215515.17602.qmail@web82411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:    At 8:11 PM -0700 2006-09-06, Jack Stone wrote:

> I'll have to check on the things you suggested, but just a quick
> response without more specifics, I've noticed it takes a long, long
> time for the announcement list to reach the sendmail queue -- and
> the "qfiles/out" is usually choked with queued messages for quite a
> while. It appears the discussion list has to wait in line..

In that case, it seems likely that your delay is in the Mailman queue 
management process, and not within sendmail. In that case, I 
recently did a slight cleanup on some good stuff that Nigel 
Metheringham put into the FAQ Wizard for FAQ 6.6, and I'd recommend 
you take a look at it.

<JLS> Brad, good suggestion on FAQ 6.6
  This change below seems to have made a great improvement in performance/speed. The smaller batches starting hitting the sendmail queue almost instantly and the forum activities haven't suffered.
   
  Make sure your batch size is small:
SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 10
Set your qrunner proc to live longer, and extend the lock life:
QRUNNER_LOCK_LIFETIME = hours(10)
QRUNNER_PROCESS_LIFETIME = minutes(15)
QRUNNER_MAX_MESSAGES = 300
Set these to 20 hours, 2 hours and 50000
   
  Thanks for the tip!
   


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  8 00:21:50 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 17:21:50 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Writing a Mailman Script
In-Reply-To: <101282d10609071414q369c1246hf030794c089c1077@mail.gmail.com>
References: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240510c1252c65e12f@10.0.1.210>
	<17663.39301.444398.644184@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<101282d10609071103i3c6e2acdi66493ef6d6be9a3b@mail.gmail.com>
	<101282d10609071414q369c1246hf030794c089c1077@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240522c1264bad35a6@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:14 PM -0700 2006-09-07, Nerses Ohanyan wrote:

>  I have set up everything, but it simply doesn't work.  How can I debug
>  my code?  How can I see what the code is doing (i.e. can I print to
>  terminal?)

Unfortunately, Python doesn't have a lot of debugging tools.  You can 
either run the program interactively, or you can add some print or 
logging statements, and that's about all I know of.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dellsworth at insightbb.com  Fri Sep  8 02:17:00 2006
From: dellsworth at insightbb.com (David Ellsworth)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 20:17:00 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML Newsletter Setup
Message-ID: <C1262EBC.162D7%dellsworth@insightbb.com>

I've setup a MM2.1.5 newsletter list and set it up to accept emails with the
option added in the first line of the email Approved: password.

Problem is I can't get it to accept an HTML file formatted email without
messing up my HTML and removing the Approved: password line.

The file looks like this:

Approved: password

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

<html>

    <head> rest of HTML here

The HTML email is sent by the list but the HTML is largely removed and the
Approved: password is left in.

I've also set the Content filtering=>remove message attachments to blank and
the Should Mailman convert... to No.

The following is included in the HTML email:

MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=AppleScriptHTMLbreak
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.355 tagged_above=-999 required=20
 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, AWL, BAYES_00, HTML_MESSAGE, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY,
 MPART_ALT_DIFF
X-Spam-Level: 

--AppleScriptHTMLbreak
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


--AppleScriptHTMLbreak
Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html";
   boundary=AppleScriptBreak
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This is an HTML email

--AppleScriptBreak
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Any ideas? 

TIA

David



From andyk at spunge.org  Fri Sep  8 02:02:45 2006
From: andyk at spunge.org (Andy)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 19:02:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to filter just HTML, but not attachements?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609071901220.11880@chi.spunge.org>

Is that possible to set up filters to remove all HTML from all messages, but
to let through any attachements, like word documents, graphic files etc. send
to lists.
How to do that?

Regards
andy



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  8 03:13:50 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 20:13:50 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to filter just HTML, but not attachements?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609071901220.11880@chi.spunge.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609071901220.11880@chi.spunge.org>
Message-ID: <p06240527c12671e72b04@[10.0.1.210]>

At 7:02 PM -0500 2006-09-07, Andy wrote:

>  Is that possible to set up filters to remove all HTML from all messages, but
>  to let through any attachements, like word documents, graphic files etc. send
>  to lists.
>  How to do that?

The problem is that the way you think of an e-mail message, and the 
way that the computer sees that e-mail message, are two completely 
and totally different things.

You see HTML e-mail and attachments as two separate objects.  The 
computer sees a wide variety of MIME bodypart types and encodings, 
some of which may recursively include other MIME bodypart types using 
other encodings.


So, you want to set up Mailman to convert HTML to plain text, and you 
want to set up your system to strip the typical HTML non-plain 
bodypart types, but not the other MIME bodypart types.

To really make this work right, you're going to want to get a very 
large sample of as many different types of messages as could possibly 
be posted to the list, and then carefully go through the complete 
list of MIME bodypart types and make sure you know which ones fall 
into which categories.

Problem is, there is far more weirdness out there than you can 
possibly imagine, and far more seriously broken code out there than 
you can possibly imagine, and you'll never be able to get even a 
moderately complete list of the various different MIME bodypart types 
in all their various different forms.


The other way to approach this problem is to go through what you can 
relatively easily collect and set up a relatively simple 
categorization of the MIME bodypart types in question.

Then, whenever someone has a problem that you've never heard of 
before (like some attachment being stripped that shouldn't, or some 
HTML being allowed through that shouldn't), you'll have to go through 
the process of collecting sample messages and looking at the various 
different MIME bodypart types in question, and then configuring 
Mailman to handle those specific new types appropriately.


Some groups lie to you and try to make this look one-click easy, but 
the reality is truly far stranger than you could ever imagine.  It's 
not one-click easy, and it never will be.

If you allow yourself to be tricked into thinking it's one-click 
easy, there will come a day when you find out -- the hard way -- some 
small part of just how weird this problem really is.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  8 03:17:32 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 20:17:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML Newsletter Setup
In-Reply-To: <C1262EBC.162D7%dellsworth@insightbb.com>
References: <C1262EBC.162D7%dellsworth@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <p06240528c126745fbf28@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:17 PM -0400 2006-09-07, David Ellsworth wrote:

>  I've setup a MM2.1.5 newsletter list and set it up to accept emails with the
>  option added in the first line of the email Approved: password.
>
>  Problem is I can't get it to accept an HTML file formatted email without
>  messing up my HTML and removing the Approved: password line.

See my other response (to andyk at spunge.org) regarding HTML filtering.

Handling HTML e-mail is hard enough when you're not trying to do any 
kind of processing or filtering to any of the content of the message. 
Trying to put some content filtering into that mix makes the problem 
exponentially harder.  Even something that is apparently as simple as 
stripping the "Approved:" header.


If you can get the "Approved:" line out of the body of the message 
and into the actual headers of the message, that will make things a 
lot easier.


But don't ever let anyone lie to you and try to convince you that 
doing content filtering on HTML e-mail is easy.

It's only easy if you have no concept of what is actually going on 
underneath the hood, and then it's only easy until what's going on 
underneath the hood fails in some catastrophic way.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From ddjones at riddlemaster.org  Fri Sep  8 05:59:30 2006
From: ddjones at riddlemaster.org (Daniel D Jones)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 23:59:30 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron errors
Message-ID: <200609072359.30208.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>

Getting the following complaints from the senddigest cron job:

Traceback (most recent call last):
? File "/var/lib/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 94, in ?
? ? main()
? File "/var/lib/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 86, in main
? ? mlist.send_digest_now()
? File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Digester.py", line 60, in send_digest_now
? ? ToDigest.send_digests(self, mboxfp)
? File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/ToDigest.py", line 142, in 
send_digests
? ? send_i18n_digests(mlist, mboxfp)
? File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/ToDigest.py", line 324, in 
send_i18n_digests
? ? msg = scrubber(mlist, msg)
? File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 393, in process
? ? replace_payload_by_text(msg, sep.join(text), charset)
? File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 175, in 
replace_payload_by_text
? ? msg.set_payload(text, charset)
? File "email/Message.py", line 218, in set_payload
? File "email/Message.py", line 242, in set_charset
TypeError: us-ascii

Not a  python programmer, so I have no idea what to do to deal with this.   
Suggestions?



From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  8 07:41:00 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 14:41:00 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Writing a Mailman Script
In-Reply-To: <101282d10609071414q369c1246hf030794c089c1077@mail.gmail.com>
References: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240510c1252c65e12f@10.0.1.210>
	<17663.39301.444398.644184@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<101282d10609071103i3c6e2acdi66493ef6d6be9a3b@mail.gmail.com>
	<101282d10609071414q369c1246hf030794c089c1077@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17665.620.533413.677403@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Nerses Ohanyan writes:

 > I have set up everything, but it simply doesn't work.  How can I debug
 > my code?  How can I see what the code is doing (i.e. can I print to
 > terminal?)

You can run it under an interactive Python, I'm sure, but you'll need
to do a bunch of importing by hand and preparation of test input and
stuff like that.  It will depend on what your code does.  I've never
done it, though, so I can't really say.

As I wrote, you can write to a log, there are a couple of examples in
the standard handlers.  If you want to see that in real time, you can
tail the log.  It's as easy as

from Mailman.Logging.Syslog import syslog
def process(mlist, msg, msgdata):
    syslog('mylog', 'Got right HERE -->  <-- I mean, LEFT here!')

and you'll find the "got here ..." message in $MAILMAN_HOME/log/mylog.

If you want something more interactive than that, it's beyond my
experience.  I'd suggest that you ask on comp.lang.python, but of
course you'll have to provide most of the Mailman specifics yourself.

HTH

Steve



From dellsworth at insightbb.com  Fri Sep  8 13:43:31 2006
From: dellsworth at insightbb.com (David Ellsworth)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 07:43:31 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML Newsletter Setup
In-Reply-To: <p06240528c126745fbf28@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <C126CFA3.1638C%dellsworth@insightbb.com>

Uh, thanks for that Brad, I got it, it's complicated. All I need is a simple
way to get a formatted html email with Approved through the system. You're
telling me that that isn't going to be the case? I'm using an applescript
with Entourage on OS 10.47 to send the file to mailman. Perhaps another
email client that allows me to put the Approved comment in the email file
header? 

Thanks

David


On 9/7/06 9:17 PM, "Brad Knowles" <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:

> At 8:17 PM -0400 2006-09-07, David Ellsworth wrote:
> 
>>  I've setup a MM2.1.5 newsletter list and set it up to accept emails with the
>>  option added in the first line of the email Approved: password.
>> 
>>  Problem is I can't get it to accept an HTML file formatted email without
>>  messing up my HTML and removing the Approved: password line.
> 
> See my other response (to andyk at spunge.org) regarding HTML filtering.
> 
> Handling HTML e-mail is hard enough when you're not trying to do any
> kind of processing or filtering to any of the content of the message.
> Trying to put some content filtering into that mix makes the problem
> exponentially harder.  Even something that is apparently as simple as
> stripping the "Approved:" header.
> 
> 
> If you can get the "Approved:" line out of the body of the message
> and into the actual headers of the message, that will make things a
> lot easier.
> 
> 
> But don't ever let anyone lie to you and try to convince you that
> doing content filtering on HTML e-mail is easy.
> 
> It's only easy if you have no concept of what is actually going on
> underneath the hood, and then it's only easy until what's going on
> underneath the hood fails in some catastrophic way.



From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Fri Sep  8 14:17:26 2006
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 07:17:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML Newsletter Setup
In-Reply-To: <C126CFA3.1638C%dellsworth@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <C126C986.28014%lstone19@stonejongleux.com>

On 9/8/06 6:43 AM, David Ellsworth at dellsworth at insightbb.com wrote:

> Uh, thanks for that Brad, I got it, it's complicated. All I need is a simple
> way to get a formatted html email with Approved through the system. You're
> telling me that that isn't going to be the case? I'm using an applescript
> with Entourage on OS 10.47 to send the file to mailman. Perhaps another
> email client that allows me to put the Approved comment in the email file
> header? 

No need for a different mail client as Entourage will add headers. It's on
the Options pane of the account edit window. Since that's not a Mailman
issue, ask me off-line if you need more information.

-- 
Larry Stone
lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
http://www.stonejongleux.com/




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  8 18:09:04 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 11:09:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML Newsletter Setup
In-Reply-To: <C126CFA3.1638C%dellsworth@insightbb.com>
References: <C126CFA3.1638C%dellsworth@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c1274515f810@[10.0.1.210]>

At 7:43 AM -0400 2006-09-08, David Ellsworth wrote:

>  Uh, thanks for that Brad, I got it, it's complicated. All I need is a simple
>  way to get a formatted html email with Approved through the system. You're
>  telling me that that isn't going to be the case?

It's not going to be as easy as you had hoped.  At least, not unless 
you can find a way to put the "Approved:" line into the header of the 
message.

The problems lie in the vagaries of how HTML is interpreted by each 
cog in the system, and how unintentional changes at any one point 
could have potentially catastrophic results downstream, at least for 
certain clients.

>                                                    I'm using an applescript
>  with Entourage on OS 10.47 to send the file to mailman. Perhaps another
>  email client that allows me to put the Approved comment in the email file
>  header?

I'm not sure about what capabilities you will find with which 
programs, certainly not from a scripting perspective.  Personally, if 
I need a CLI/scriptable client, I'll go with something like 
/usr/bin/Mail or mutt, both of which are typical Unix text-mode MUAs. 
But then I was using /usr/bin/Mail twenty years ago, and I don't 
think that it's going to be the kind of program you're looking for. 
Neither of these programs do HTML, for one thing.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From briano at aiaa.org  Fri Sep  8 17:17:17 2006
From: briano at aiaa.org (Brian Oliver)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 11:17:17 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman Section 508 Compliant?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.40.1157709609.14783.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.40.1157709609.14783.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <4501897D.3000708@aiaa.org>

I currently support a 2.1.4 version of mailman, which a government 
organization is using.  I have been tasked section 508 compliance, and I 
am noticing that WebXACT http://webxact.watchfire.com/ is reporting 
various section 508 compliance errors when I run the tool against some 
of the out of the box pages that mailman provides for each list.

QUESTIONS:
1) Are newer releases of mailman more compliant?  If no, then are there 
plans to make a future release compliant?
2) Anyone have any tips for me?

Thanks,

Brian Oliver


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  8 19:01:58 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 12:01:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman Section 508 Compliant?
In-Reply-To: <4501897D.3000708@aiaa.org>
References: <mailman.40.1157709609.14783.mailman-users@python.org>
	<4501897D.3000708@aiaa.org>
Message-ID: <p06240503c1274d9ef833@[10.0.1.210]>

At 11:17 AM -0400 2006-09-08, Brian Oliver wrote:

>  1) Are newer releases of mailman more compliant?  If no, then are there
>  plans to make a future release compliant?

I certainly don't recall ever hearing of "Section 508 Compliance" 
before, and using search engines looking for the term "Section 508 
Compliance" on the python.org site, I don't come up with any hits at 
all.

Searching a bit wider, I do come up with a couple of hits for 
"Section 508" on the Mailman-related mailing lists, see 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2006-June.txt> 
and 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2006-July.txt> 
and search for "Section 508" on the page.

>  2) Anyone have any tips for me?

Well, at least some of the Mailman developers have at least heard of 
it, but beyond the information found in the archives mentioned above, 
I'm not sure that anyone has any new information.

Beyond that, you could always file a Request For Enhancement at the 
Mailman RFE page on SourceForge (see 
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=103&atid=350103>), or 
perhaps do some development of your own (or get someone else to do 
the development for you) and then contribute that work back to the 
project through the Mailman Patch page on SourceForge (see 
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=103&atid=300103>).

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From Peter at cww.org.uk  Fri Sep  8 21:22:47 2006
From: Peter at cww.org.uk (Peter Edley)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 20:22:47 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with non-digest mode
Message-ID: <185963280609081222l39c84caaq8695bec99fa1c334@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there

I'm in the middle of trying to set up mailman.  I have everything
working except for the non-digest mode.

I have set up 3 test users.

If i subscribe users as digest and then send emails the emails are
sent out in digest at the relevant time.

If i subscribe users as non-digest, then send emails the email gets
added to the archive but is not sent out.

Any help on this matter would be greatfully received.

-- 
Peter Edley
http://www.handsworthchristianschool.co.uk
http://www.childrenworldwide.co.uk

135 Atlantic Road
Sheffield
S8 7GD

TELEPHONE      0114 2378788
MOBILE             07729 501215


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Sep  8 22:18:10 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:18:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with non-digest mode
In-Reply-To: <185963280609081222l39c84caaq8695bec99fa1c334@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <185963280609081222l39c84caaq8695bec99fa1c334@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060908131106.0619c338@crimson-dragon.com>

Peter Edley wrote:
>Hi there
>
>I'm in the middle of trying to set up mailman.  I have everything
>working except for the non-digest mode.
>
>I have set up 3 test users.
>
>If i subscribe users as digest and then send emails the emails are
>sent out in digest at the relevant time.
>
>If i subscribe users as non-digest, then send emails the email gets
>added to the archive but is not sent out.
>
>Any help on this matter would be greatfully received.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Sounds to me like your outgoing qrunner is not working.

What do your mailman error and qrunner logs say?

You should see something like this if you do  ps aux | grep mailman

mailman   2738  0.0  0.3  11956  6656 ?        Ss   Sep05   0:00 
/usr/bin/python bin/mailmanctl start
mailman  31577  0.0  0.3  13144  7880 ?        S    Sep06   0:07 
/usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  31578  0.0  0.3  11720  6516 ?        S    Sep06   0:01 
/usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=BounceRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  31579  0.0  0.3  11736  6508 ?        S    Sep06   0:01 
/usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=CommandRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  31580  0.0  0.3  12172  6940 ?        S    Sep06   0:04 
/usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=IncomingRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  31581  0.0  0.3  11788  6536 ?        S    Sep06   0:02 
/usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=NewsRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  31582  0.0  0.3  12252  7040 ?        S    Sep06   0:04 
/usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  31583  0.0  0.3  12144  6812 ?        S    Sep06   0:04 
/usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=VirginRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  31584  0.0  0.3  11800  6496 ?        S    Sep06   0:00 
/usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=RetryRunner:0:1 -s
root     14080  0.0  0.0   3760   700 pts/0    S+   13:09   0:00 grep mailman



Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com  Fri Sep  8 22:44:55 2006
From: Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com (Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 15:44:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subject Line on Invite Messages
In-Reply-To: <p06240505c123a3cc9e51@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <249DE599979CD84683A1C3D94FBD52BB39F5C0@farquaad.us.omicron.at>

Hi Brad, Thanks for the reply.  We did an update of Mailman in RedHat ES 3
and now Mailman is version 2.1.5.1-25.  However, we are still getting the
generic subject line (confirm aad5624d316c46234928426cb4a6c57c691d0e7c) for
list subscription confirmation email.  Attached is the mm_cfg.py we used.
Can you or other Mailman experts take a quick look at it and let us know if
we are doing something wrong?  Or Are we missing some other configuration
option in the Mailman Admin GUI or elsewhere?

Many Thanks,
Jimmy

Contents of mm_cfg.py: ============================================
"""This module contains your site-specific settings.

>From a brand new distribution it should be copied to mm_cfg.py.  If you
already have an mm_cfg.py, be careful to add in only the new settings you
want.  Mailman's installation procedure will never overwrite your mm_cfg.py
file.

The complete set of distributed defaults, with documentation, are in the
file Defaults.py.  In mm_cfg.py, override only those you want to change,
after the

  from Defaults import *

line (see below).

Note that these are just default settings; many can be overridden via the
administrator and user interfaces on a per-list or per-user basis.

"""

###############################################
# Here's where we get the distributed defaults.

from Defaults import *
import pwd, grp

##################################################
# Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line.

##############################################################
#    Here's where we override shipped defaults with settings #
#    suitable for the RPM package.                           #
MAILMAN_UID = pwd.getpwnam('mailman')[2]
MAILMAN_GID = grp.getgrnam('mailman')[2]
LOG_DIR     = '/var/log/mailman'
QUEUE_DIR   = '/var/spool/mailman/qfiles'

##############################################################
#    IMPORTANT! - You must set these domain names!           #
# 
# Mailman needs to know about (at least) two fully-qualified domain # names
(fqdn) # # 1) the hostname used in your urls (DEFAULT_URL_HOST) # 2) the
hostname used in email addresses for your domain (DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST) # #
For example, if people visit your Mailman system with #
"http://www.dom.ain/mailman" then your url fqdn is "www.dom.ain", # and if
people send mail to your system via "yourlist at dom.ain" then # your email
fqdn is "dom.ain".  DEFAULT_URL_HOST controls the former, # and
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST controls the latter.  Mailman also needs to # know how to
map from one to the other (this is especially important # if you're running
with virtual domains).  You use # "add_virtualhost(urlfqdn, emailfqdn)" to
add new mappings.

DEFAULT_URL_HOST   = 'mm_cfg_has_not_been_edited_to_set_host_domains'
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mm_cfg_has_not_been_edited_to_set_host_domains'

# Because we've overriden the virtual hosts above add_virtualhost # MUST be
called after they have been defined.

add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION = Yes

add_virtualhost('mlists.xyz.com')

# Set to enable VERP-like (more user friendly) confirmations
VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes

============================================================================
=======

-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad at stop.mail-abuse.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 5:02 PM
To: Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Subject Line on Invite Messages


At 4:20 PM -0500 2006-09-05, <Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com> wrote:

>  Hi, Does the VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes only works on certain version 
> of  Mailman? We have Mailman version 2.1.1-5, Python 3.0.4-0.1, and 
> Qmail
>  (1.03-rhel3) and have set the setting as suggested; but we are still
getting
>  the generic subject line for list subscription confirmation email.

Looking through the source, Mailman 2.1.5 mentions this option, but 
I've having trouble using Subversion to figure out precisely when 
this was introduced.  I know that the code around this option has 
changed more than once, but that's about all I can tell you right now.

I can tell you that the latest current version right now is version 
2.1.8, and 2.1.9 will be released very soon.  2.1.9rc1 is out now, 
and we're already running it on python.org.  There are some important 
security fixes coming with 2.1.9, so I highly recommend that you get 
this version for your site as soon as it is available.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Sep  8 22:51:31 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:51:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with non-digest mode
In-Reply-To: <185963280609081326o3ede4b06h256f221e8d188944@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <185963280609081222l39c84caaq8695bec99fa1c334@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060908131106.0619c338@crimson-dragon.com>
	<185963280609081326o3ede4b06h256f221e8d188944@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060908134117.063fc360@crimson-dragon.com>

Peter Edley sent the message below at 13:26 9/8/2006:
>Thanks for the reply, i would have thought if that wasn't running then
>it wouldn't send out the digest ones as well, but this is what i get,
>have a look at let me know what you think.
>
>mailman  14045  0.0  0.0  8088 5412 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
>mailman  14046  0.0  0.0  8568 5940 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14047  0.0  0.0  8168 5428 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=BounceRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14048  0.0  0.0  8080 5416 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=CommandRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14049  0.0  0.0  8500 5656 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=IncomingRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14050  0.0  0.0  8376 5448 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=NewsRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14051  0.0  0.0  8416 5680 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14052  0.0  0.0  8480 5556 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=VirginRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14053  0.0  0.0  8108 5416 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=RetryRunner:0:1 -s
>root     30390  0.0  0.0  1416  492 pts/0    S    20:23   0:00 grep mailman
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

That looks right to me.

The sending of digests is handled by the senddigests script in the 
cron directory, I am not sure exactly how it sends things but I don't 
think it uses the outgoing qrunner. I could be mistaken on that and I 
am sure one of the more knowledgeable members will correct me if I am wrong.

Have you tried a restart of mailman? The outgoing process is running 
but that does not necessarily mean that it is "awake" and able to 
process anything.

To troubleshoot further, we will need more info.

Have you examined the qrunner, post, vette, smtp, and error logs? On 
your system they should be located in /var/mailman/logs

If the posts are getting to your MTA, you will need to look at its 
logs to see if you can find anything there.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From jwblist3 at olympus.net  Fri Sep  8 23:18:39 2006
From: jwblist3 at olympus.net (John W. Baxter)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 14:18:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML Newsletter Setup
In-Reply-To: <C126CFA3.1638C%dellsworth@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <C1272C3F.E851%jwblist3@olympus.net>

On 9/8/06 4:43 AM, "David Ellsworth" <dellsworth at insightbb.com> wrote:

> Uh, thanks for that Brad, I got it, it's complicated. All I need is a simple
> way to get a formatted html email with Approved through the system. You're
> telling me that that isn't going to be the case? I'm using an applescript
> with Entourage on OS 10.47 to send the file to mailman. Perhaps another
> email client that allows me to put the Approved comment in the email file
> header? 

I see two fairly obvious ways to proceed.

1.  Create an Account in Entourage, and insert the needed Approved: header
manually into that account's additional headers area.  Then send messages to
the list using that account (in your scripting).

2.  Using Applescript to modify a single account, you may be able to set the
"Exchange account" object's "additional headers" property early in the
sending script to contain the needed header, then prepare and send the
message, then restore the additional headers property to normal (probably
empty).

I haven't tried this.  The Entourage version I'm looking at is 11.2.5.  Note
that if someone manually sends a message at an inconvenient moment, the
header would be part of it.  Suggest debugging the script using a bogus
password in the Approved: header.

  --John






From Peter at cww.org.uk  Fri Sep  8 23:48:29 2006
From: Peter at cww.org.uk (Peter Edley)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 22:48:29 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd:  Problem with non-digest mode
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060908134117.063fc360@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <185963280609081222l39c84caaq8695bec99fa1c334@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060908131106.0619c338@crimson-dragon.com>
	<185963280609081326o3ede4b06h256f221e8d188944@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060908134117.063fc360@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <185963280609081448y6112e983vec41369238dd960f@mail.gmail.com>

ok I've carried out some more investigation into this.  the 3 emails i
set up to test all forwarded to my google mail account.

I have now set up one of them as a seperate pop3 address one as a
forward to that address and one as a forward to my google mail
account.

The pop3 one receives no problem the forward to that address again no
problem the one that forwards to google message never arrives.

So i added my google mail account to the list.

And again no mail comes through.

Now my registration for the Mailman-users list comes into my google
mail no problem so there is something to do with the set up of my mail
man that won't let it send to google.

Anybody else have this problem, i could go ahead and launch but the
problem is i know that at least 2 of the people who will be on the
final list use google mail.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dragon <dragon at crimson-dragon.com>
Date: Sep 8, 2006 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Problem with non-digest mode
To: Peter Edley <Peter at cww.org.uk>, mailman mailing list
<mailman-users at python.org>


Peter Edley sent the message below at 13:26 9/8/2006:
>Thanks for the reply, i would have thought if that wasn't running then
>it wouldn't send out the digest ones as well, but this is what i get,
>have a look at let me know what you think.
>
>mailman  14045  0.0  0.0  8088 5412 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
>mailman  14046  0.0  0.0  8568 5940 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14047  0.0  0.0  8168 5428 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=BounceRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14048  0.0  0.0  8080 5416 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=CommandRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14049  0.0  0.0  8500 5656 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=IncomingRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14050  0.0  0.0  8376 5448 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=NewsRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14051  0.0  0.0  8416 5680 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14052  0.0  0.0  8480 5556 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=VirginRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14053  0.0  0.0  8108 5416 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=RetryRunner:0:1 -s
>root     30390  0.0  0.0  1416  492 pts/0    S    20:23   0:00 grep mailman
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

That looks right to me.

The sending of digests is handled by the senddigests script in the
cron directory, I am not sure exactly how it sends things but I don't
think it uses the outgoing qrunner. I could be mistaken on that and I
am sure one of the more knowledgeable members will correct me if I am wrong.

Have you tried a restart of mailman? The outgoing process is running
but that does not necessarily mean that it is "awake" and able to
process anything.

To troubleshoot further, we will need more info.

Have you examined the qrunner, post, vette, smtp, and error logs? On
your system they should be located in /var/mailman/logs

If the posts are getting to your MTA, you will need to look at its
logs to see if you can find anything there.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



-- 
Peter Edley
http://www.handsworthchristianschool.co.uk
http://www.childrenworldwide.co.uk

135 Atlantic Road
Sheffield
S8 7GD

TELEPHONE      0114 2378788
MOBILE             07729 501215


From tenant at tenant.net  Thu Sep  7 22:19:19 2006
From: tenant at tenant.net (Tenant)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 16:19:19 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Alternative to Mailman
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060907161433.01589ef8@tenant.net>

We've been using Mailman for several years for a number of our lists, 
been reasonably happy, and will probably continue to use it.

However, no single package is the right answer for all situations. 
Some of our newer domains need packages with capabilities that 
Mailman can't provide, so I'm looking for suggestions and comments on 
various alternative open source packages (and not trying to troll).

We're looking at PHPlist, DadaMail and other packages. We need to be 
able to send up to 100,000 at a shot, announce only, use MySQL and 
with html mail (or provide that as an option, which Mailman can't 
do), merge/purge lists, searchable archives, personalization and get 
around AOL/Hotmail perceived spam bouncing, etc.

In the best of worlds, I'd like to be able to maintain various fields 
on list members including name and source so, for example, we could 
decide to send an email to all list members from Source A and Source 
C, but not Source B, and if there are duplicates on lists A and B, of 
course send only one copy.

Maybe that's getting into the realm of campaign software. All of our 
list members are opt-in, but they come from various sources, so I'd 
like to be able to pick sources for each mailing and essentially 
build a list each time from various criteria.

I'd prefer open source (of course) with an active development 
community, and we maintain our own server with many virtual domains. 
I realize no single package can do all that, but suggestion and 
comments are welcome. Thanks.

John Fisher
TenantNet


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Tenant Network(tm) for Residential Tenants
   TenantNet(tm):          http://tenant.net
   email:                  tenant at tenant.net
Information from TenantNet is from experienced non-attorney tenant
activists and is not considered legal advice.




From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Sep  8 23:55:25 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 14:55:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd:  Problem with non-digest mode
In-Reply-To: <185963280609081448y6112e983vec41369238dd960f@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <185963280609081222l39c84caaq8695bec99fa1c334@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060908131106.0619c338@crimson-dragon.com>
	<185963280609081326o3ede4b06h256f221e8d188944@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060908134117.063fc360@crimson-dragon.com>
	<185963280609081448y6112e983vec41369238dd960f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060908145216.063ed4f0@crimson-dragon.com>

Peter Edley sent the message below at 14:48 9/8/2006:
>ok I've carried out some more investigation into this.  the 3 emails i
>set up to test all forwarded to my google mail account.
>
>I have now set up one of them as a seperate pop3 address one as a
>forward to that address and one as a forward to my google mail
>account.
>
>The pop3 one receives no problem the forward to that address again no
>problem the one that forwards to google message never arrives.
>
>So i added my google mail account to the list.
>
>And again no mail comes through.
>
>Now my registration for the Mailman-users list comes into my google
>mail no problem so there is something to do with the set up of my mail
>man that won't let it send to google.
>
>Anybody else have this problem, i could go ahead and launch but the
>problem is i know that at least 2 of the people who will be on the
>final list use google mail.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Enough said.

Your list is working. It is not your list that is the problem.

Google Mail is the problem. It tries to be "helpful" by not 
displaying any messages in your in-box that you sent out or that have 
a duplicate message ID as one already there.

This ought to be a FAQ entry, it's not the first time this issue has come up.



Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From andyk at spunge.org  Sat Sep  9 01:22:54 2006
From: andyk at spunge.org (Andy)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 18:22:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rebuilding list archive crashed?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609081822230.10013@chi.spunge.org>

Hi!

I was rebuilding list archive, and during that process something
stuck, and the process has not ended.

I tried to restart it:
/var/list/bin/arch --wipe listname

but it seems to be hung up from start now.

(archive has been wiped though before it hung for the first time, because
there is nothing on WWW).

I do not know how to unblock it.

Can you please suggest what is the reason of that problem?
Which process to kill to unstuck it?

I am not server admin therefore I do not normally do such things, however
admin has given me recently access to mailman group, so I should be able to do
it myself. I need some hints from you though. Thank you.

I hope to hear from you ASAP.
Cheers!

a.



From srb at umich.edu  Sat Sep  9 02:37:13 2006
From: srb at umich.edu (Steve Burling)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 20:37:13 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML Newsletter Setup
In-Reply-To: <C126C986.28014%lstone19@stonejongleux.com>
References: <C126C986.28014%lstone19@stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <1EDEBC5F4F46BFDA589BCEE1@srb.local>

--On September 8, 2006 7:17:26 AM -0500 Larry Stone 
<lstone19 at stonejongleux.com> wrote:

> No need for a different mail client as Entourage will add headers. It's on
> the Options pane of the account edit window. Since that's not a Mailman
> issue, ask me off-line if you need more information.

To which I reply:

But be careful -- unless I'm misunderstanding, if you use that set of 
Entourage preferences for any other use, then all the mail you send will 
contain the list-approval password in the Approved header.

Probably better to get mutt from <http://www.mutt.org>, build it, and use 
that to send your mail out.

-- 
Steve Burling                                    <mailto:srb at umich.edu>
University of Michigan, ICPSR                    Voice: +1 734 615.3779
330 Packard Street                               FAX:   +1 734 647.8700
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-2910


From andyk at spunge.org  Sat Sep  9 02:57:36 2006
From: andyk at spunge.org (Andy)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 19:57:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rebuilding list archive crashed?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609081956280.592@chi.spunge.org>

> I was rebuilding list archive, and during that process something
> stuck, and the process has not ended.

Also e-mails seem not to be distributed over the list.
How can I restart it or ulock it?

Regarding archive rebuilding.

When I try to run it again:

$ /var/list/bin/arch listname

nothing happens, so I have to interrupt it (Ctrl+C), and only then some
messages appear:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/var/list/bin/arch", line 200, in ?
    main()
  File "/var/list/bin/arch", line 141, in main
    mlist = MailList(listname)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 128, in __init__
    self.Lock()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 161, in Lock
    self.__lock.lock(timeout)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 312, in lock
    self.__sleep()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 496, in __sleep
    time.sleep(interval)
KeyboardInterrupt


a.



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Sat Sep  9 08:49:21 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 01:49:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rebuilding list archive crashed?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609081956280.592@chi.spunge.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609081956280.592@chi.spunge.org>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609082349l2092b178rc0b305fc327c1c2d@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/8/06, Andy <andyk at spunge.org> wrote:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/var/list/bin/arch", line 200, in ?
>     main()
>   File "/var/list/bin/arch", line 141, in main
>     mlist = MailList(listname)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 128, in __init__
>     self.Lock()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 161, in Lock
>     self.__lock.lock(timeout)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 312, in lock
>     self.__sleep()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 496, in __sleep
>     time.sleep(interval)

The traceback seems to indicate that the script is waiting for some
locks. You might try running:

mailmanctl stop

Then wait a few minutes (to give everything time to shut down) and
run: ps uaxf | grep -i python and see if there are any mailman-related
processes still running. I would kill them, but this might cause
problems or there might be a better way. (I.e., wait a bit to see if
anyone else on the list has a better idea.)

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From it-support at asta.tu-darmstadt.de  Sat Sep  9 09:08:56 2006
From: it-support at asta.tu-darmstadt.de (IT-Support @ AStA TU Darmstadt)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 09:08:56 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Alternative to Mailman
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060907161433.01589ef8@tenant.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060907161433.01589ef8@tenant.net>
Message-ID: <45026888.9090001@asta.tu-darmstadt.de>

Hello John,

this really sounds like you'd need a campaign software software :-)

Have you ever heard of "openEMM" http://www.openemm.org/ ?

May that's what you're looking for.

Best wishes,
Ivan

Tenant schrieb:
> We've been using Mailman for several years for a number of our lists, 
> been reasonably happy, and will probably continue to use it.
> 
> However, no single package is the right answer for all situations. 
> Some of our newer domains need packages with capabilities that 
> Mailman can't provide, so I'm looking for suggestions and comments on 
> various alternative open source packages (and not trying to troll).
> 
> We're looking at PHPlist, DadaMail and other packages. We need to be 
> able to send up to 100,000 at a shot, announce only, use MySQL and 
> with html mail (or provide that as an option, which Mailman can't 
> do), merge/purge lists, searchable archives, personalization and get 
> around AOL/Hotmail perceived spam bouncing, etc.
> 
> In the best of worlds, I'd like to be able to maintain various fields 
> on list members including name and source so, for example, we could 
> decide to send an email to all list members from Source A and Source 
> C, but not Source B, and if there are duplicates on lists A and B, of 
> course send only one copy.
> 
> Maybe that's getting into the realm of campaign software. All of our 
> list members are opt-in, but they come from various sources, so I'd 
> like to be able to pick sources for each mailing and essentially 
> build a list each time from various criteria.
> 
> I'd prefer open source (of course) with an active development 
> community, and we maintain our own server with many virtual domains. 
> I realize no single package can do all that, but suggestion and 
> comments are welcome. Thanks.
> 
> John Fisher
> TenantNet
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Tenant Network(tm) for Residential Tenants
>    TenantNet(tm):          http://tenant.net
>    email:                  tenant at tenant.net
> Information from TenantNet is from experienced non-attorney tenant
> activists and is not considered legal advice.



From Christian.Hinken at sdm.de  Sat Sep  9 10:51:46 2006
From: Christian.Hinken at sdm.de (Christian.Hinken at sdm.de)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 10:51:46 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Configuring the Subject of Confirmation Emails
Message-ID: <9D13633BF976B64F8951788873D4A662B23853@ffmmail1.sdm.de>

Hello! 

On our site, Mailman 2.1.3 is used. 

The subject of the confirmation emails sent when subscribing and unsubscribing to the mailing list has the form "confirm <cookie>". 

We do not need the cookie, because the content of the mail contains a link which contains the cookie. The link generates the mail to mailman.
How do you configure the subject of the confirmation emails? Any help would be appreciated. 

Christian. 




From cihany at metu.edu.tr  Sat Sep  9 10:53:31 2006
From: cihany at metu.edu.tr (Cihan Yildirim-Yucel)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 11:53:31 +0300 (WET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] About scrubbing attachments
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.58.0609091133460.1351684@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>


For some of the lists I have been managing, in order to make the
attachments accessible only from the web archives, I have tried to
activate the "scrub_nondigest" feature. This works, that is, the
attachments are scrubbed and a url link for each attachment is given
within the body of the messages sent to the lists. However, there does not
exist a standard rule for the file extensions reached from the archives.
For instance;

* .gif, .jpg, .pdf extensions can directly be reached from the list's web
archive.
* .htm, .html files are viewed in source code in the list's web archive.
* .doc and .xls extensions are converted into .obj extension.
* .sxw extension is converted into .zip extension.

As this is the case, I can not make use of this feature since it is very
difficult and disturbing for our users when trying to view or open the
attachments with those altered extensions from the web archives. (e.g.
files with .obj extension have to be saved and changed manually into
.doc/.xls and then they can be opened..)

While using the scrub-attachments feature, isn't it possible to reach the
attachment files as they are, from the web archives?

With regards,
____________________
Cihan YILDIRIM-YUCEL


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Sat Sep  9 15:53:00 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 08:53:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Configuring the Subject of Confirmation Emails
In-Reply-To: <9D13633BF976B64F8951788873D4A662B23853@ffmmail1.sdm.de>
References: <9D13633BF976B64F8951788873D4A662B23853@ffmmail1.sdm.de>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609090653q7680dfaejbd7da28ad463475f@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/9/06, Christian.Hinken at sdm.de <Christian.Hinken at sdm.de> wrote:
> The subject of the confirmation emails sent when subscribing and unsubscribing to the mailing list has the form "confirm <cookie>".
>
> We do not need the cookie, because the content of the mail contains a link which contains the cookie. The link generates the mail to mailman.

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do have some insight
about the reason for it.
The mail is constructed so that users can simply reply to the mail as
confirmation.. This is a fairly useful feature if, for instance,
they're in a text-only environment and don't want to have to retype
the link into a browser- assuming they even have access to one.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Sat Sep  9 18:15:59 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 11:15:59 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rebuilding list archive crashed?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609081956280.592@chi.spunge.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609081956280.592@chi.spunge.org>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609090915n664466cco4f4f7e1d683030f4@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/8/06, Andy <andyk at spunge.org> wrote:
> > I was rebuilding list archive, and during that process something
> > stuck, and the process has not ended.
>
> Also e-mails seem not to be distributed over the list.
> How can I restart it or ulock it?
>
> Regarding archive rebuilding.
>
> When I try to run it again:
>
> $ /var/list/bin/arch listname
>
> nothing happens, so I have to interrupt it (Ctrl+C), and only then some
> messages appear:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/var/list/bin/arch", line 200, in ?
>     main()
>   File "/var/list/bin/arch", line 141, in main
>     mlist = MailList(listname)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 128, in __init__
>     self.Lock()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 161, in Lock
>     self.__lock.lock(timeout)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 312, in lock
>     self.__sleep()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 496, in __sleep
>     time.sleep(interval)
> KeyboardInterrupt

The archiver takes a 3-hour lock on the list, I believe.  I found that
when I aborted an archiving run (or it crashed), I needed to manually
unlock the list. I never actually tried waiting the 3 hours; in theory
it will override the lock after the time has expired.

In my case, where there was nothing else using the mailman
installation but my attempts to rebuild the archives, I could just "
rm locks/*" from the mailman directory.  But on a real installation
with queue-runner going and other lists and so forth, *don't do
that!*.  Possibly by inspecting the names of the lock files you can
see which ones relate to your crashed rebuild, and delete just those.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From jjloose at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Sep 10 20:01:50 2006
From: jjloose at yahoo.co.uk (Jon Loose)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 18:01:50 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL
Message-ID: <20060910180150.18980.qmail@web25701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Hi,

First of all - thanks to those who pointed me to help for setting up mailman to run under https. This now works fine.  Some may be interested to know that for reasons of security I also disabled monthly password reminders and also password reminders being sent out through the user's options.  As this is a relatively small list, users with bad memories can call the admin on the 'phone!  I think that means the system could be classed as better than "moderately" secure?  The only place where an email is sent with the password in is on registration, and users are recommended to go and change this immediately to something personal/memorable.  

Second - I have found problems with invites to AOL addresses. Is this a common issue?  If so, I'd be interested to know what the issue is, and if anything can be done (apart from obviously encouraging people to dump AOL!).

Also, I note from looking at pending.pck that one such user has a list of 'evictions' under his entry.  What is an eviction?  The entry in question is:

 'e929ac850996794ab75f6c03e908f1dc253e8747': (   'S',
                                                    <UserDesc username-deleted at aol.com () [moipocub] [digest? no] [en]>),
    'evictions': {   '003ae117d826c932853b6bbe92e84b392f6add36': 1158387865.3472359,
                     '1d5e5f824d6bea5a3116b5ad709709efe21f8169': 1158385811.192379,
                     '20bfd3d2212bcee0735e0ad067ff73ff36f151d7': 1158387865.254734,
                     '286f1ad1a6bf7cc5940f232fc7cfb2b5a14ff51e': 1158387865.2473321,
                     '2d8588ecfb3a82d7dfbd5852989f38faf0a07e93': 1158387865.310961,
                     '2f0172d763be1f0709d4c3639682f4e54e99cd5f': 1158387865.141645,
                     '5158d2a87337af5b09686756d6f0efe6f0e19d5f': 1158387865.277936,
                     '61edc1f4f55ce1f811073febb9517e331b0b61e5': 1158387865.319797,
                     '6cc076d45447fe4e8a53c7173f69f27d06bbb49b': 1158387865.224859,
                     '735f704bfaff30e44411c5cf5938ca50298480a4': 1158387865.1647251,
                     '7e685288c4ab3704846459aa8d79084f6ef092f2': 1158387865.3380909,
                     '894fa76bd789fc5cfb3b7de406e9fabaedd38d4c': 1158387865.217824,
                     '908f3dbbe3b892bfe699916be6f65d8cd333cc44': 1158387865.1587031,
                     '99e6ccdee5e2b4bc550e02b1305db2a07999ba03': 1158387865.1304629,
                     '9cc06885b749cbb38ebd79016b6b83da0102d058': 1158387865.270174,
                     'a61de3c122dc9451ba657ce2da690e313138d889': 1158387865.239975,
                     'bc2cda4864912b1482feaceaf5ef46e305340a1e': 1158387865.136193,
                     'c4359dbfadcb2910c81ec79adf8bdbfa9860d8b4': 1158387865.2859111,
                     'c67f54b61abe21fd0b71fa755724dda504035d6d': 1158083434.2926841,
                     'd26c1b2ee79d56655199686e54129725cabab321': 1158387865.197608,
                     'dbfc53b7fc28b6a72cda464722dc56f3d439e29b': 1158387865.152842,
                     'e73d1ee3b7049ded2dfd16516d903a200c1c84f1': 1158387865.1241641,
                     'e8b0853b66995dfc18d576a8a4669a0c6f0f1b6c': 1158387865.2942879,
                     'e929ac850996794ab75f6c03e908f1dc253e8747': 1158387865.1851201,
                     'f1f95811560fffebeb625ecba2411e4d6e5c75e8': 1158387865.3288679,
                     'f3b68e41056b4acceed024217921bbe4a77688c7': 1158387865.356668,
                     'fa2e6c1b728d07153e12da06248947e54e458603': 1158387865.2624021,
                     'fc250aa57fd41dafccffdf6a80dbc18aff3f636a': 1158387865.1912529},

Thanks as ever,

Jon



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Sep 10 21:17:35 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 14:17:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL
In-Reply-To: <20060910180150.18980.qmail@web25701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20060910180150.18980.qmail@web25701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p0624050ac12a15343fa7@[10.0.1.210]>

At 6:01 PM +0000 2006-09-10, Jon Loose wrote:

>  Second - I have found problems with invites to AOL addresses. Is this a
>  common issue?  If so, I'd be interested to know what the issue is, and
>  if anything can be done (apart from obviously encouraging people to
>  dump AOL!).

What problems?  Can you be more specific?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msh at pigeonier.org  Mon Sep 11 02:18:39 2006
From: msh at pigeonier.org (Matt Herzog)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 20:18:39 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] check_perms
In-Reply-To: <mailman.124.1157932250.5277.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.124.1157932250.5277.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <20060911001839.GE8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>

faq03.014.htp

The FAQ entry says I should run check_perms so I did. 

Now what? The FAQ offers nothing on which files need their permissions
changed or to what mode.

ma /usr/pkg/lib/mailman/bin# ./check_perms
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./check_perms", line 50, in ?
    MAILMAN_GID = grp.getgrnam(MAILMAN_GROUP)[2]
KeyError: 'getgrnam(): name not found: '




From msh at pigeonier.org  Mon Sep 11 04:13:02 2006
From: msh at pigeonier.org (Matt Herzog)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 22:13:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] a few details
Message-ID: <20060911021302.GF8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>

I'm running mailman-2.1.6 on NetBSD 3.0 Sparc64.

1. Mailman is user 1003, group 1003 and all the scripts and binaries in
/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/Mailman are owned by root:mailman except for:

-rw-r--r--   1 www   mailman  21200 Sep 10 21:02 Defaults.pyc
-rw-r--r--   1 www   mailman   1116 Sep 10 21:20 mm_cfg.pyc

2. mailmanctl and qrunner are not running, and never have run to my knowledge.

3. ma /etc/postfix# /usr/pkg/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms", line 50, in ?
      MAILMAN_GID = grp.getgrnam(MAILMAN_GROUP)[2]
	KeyError: 'getgrnam(): name not found: '

4. Postfix works fine sending and receiving from mutt.

5. The perms on the aliases data dir look like this:

ma /var/db/mailman/data# ls -la
drwxrwxr-x  2 mailman  mailman    512 Aug 28 13:56 .
drwxrwxr-x  9 mailman  mailman    512 Aug 27 14:14 ..
-rw-r-----  1 root     mailman     41 Sep 10 17:51 adm.pw
-rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman   1944 Sep 10 21:36 aliases
-rw-r-----  1 mailman  mailman  65536 Sep 10 22:02 aliases.db

6. The aliases are not getting pulled into /etc/postfix/aliases from
/var/db/mailman/data/aliases, which looks like this:

# The ultimate loop stopper address
mailman-loop: /var/db/mailman/data/owner-bounces.mbox

# STANZA START: discuss
# CREATED: Sun Sep 10 21:36:43 2006
discuss:             "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post discuss"
discuss-admin:       "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman admin discuss"
discuss-bounces:     "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces discuss"
discuss-confirm:     "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman confirm discuss"
discuss-join:        "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman join discuss"
discuss-leave:       "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman leave discuss"
discuss-owner:       "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner discuss"
discuss-request:     "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request discuss"
discuss-subscribe:   "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe discuss"
discuss-unsubscribe: "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe
discuss"
# STANZA END: discuss



From ml at ancalagon.inka.de  Mon Sep 11 09:04:55 2006
From: ml at ancalagon.inka.de (Thomas Hochstein)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:04:55 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] a few details
References: <20060911021302.GF8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
Message-ID: <alm.0609110904.5988@windlord.akallabeth.de>

Matt Herzog schrieb:

> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms", line 50, in ?
>       MAILMAN_GID = grp.getgrnam(MAILMAN_GROUP)[2]
> 	KeyError: 'getgrnam(): name not found: '

Do you *have* a group called "mailman" in your /etc/groups (or
whereever)?


From deichmann at werkbank.com  Mon Sep 11 09:21:16 2006
From: deichmann at werkbank.com (Sven Deichmann)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:21:16 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Alternative to Mailman
In-Reply-To: <mailman.678.1157763461.5278.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.678.1157763461.5278.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <45050E6C.80708@werkbank.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello,

we came accross the same problems a while ago. While we still use
Mailman for this purposes as these requirements were not too important
for us, we already did some research. But apart from mass mailing (aka
SPAM tools) we only found an extension to the CMS system Plone (runs
under Zope. python based like Mailman) named LindeMerkur.
What kept us from using this was the complexity to set it up and use it
properly later on.

It might be worth a look though, as it is highly flexible and the CMS
part could take the part of the archive. List merging could be
implemented using small parts of python code to merge the user sources
and personalization is built in (after all that was the reason to build
this tool originally as there are also extensions to plone that connect
it to mailman)

After all this isn't a ready to go solution though.

Regards,
Sven Deichmann

> We've been using Mailman for several years for a number of our lists,
> been reasonably happy, and will probably continue to use it.
> 
> However, no single package is the right answer for all situations. Some
> of our newer domains need packages with capabilities that Mailman can't
> provide, so I'm looking for suggestions and comments on various
> alternative open source packages (and not trying to troll).
> 
> We're looking at PHPlist, DadaMail and other packages. We need to be
> able to send up to 100,000 at a shot, announce only, use MySQL and with
> html mail (or provide that as an option, which Mailman can't do),
> merge/purge lists, searchable archives, personalization and get around
> AOL/Hotmail perceived spam bouncing, etc.
> 
> In the best of worlds, I'd like to be able to maintain various fields on
> list members including name and source so, for example, we could decide
> to send an email to all list members from Source A and Source C, but not
> Source B, and if there are duplicates on lists A and B, of course send
> only one copy.
> 
> Maybe that's getting into the realm of campaign software. All of our
> list members are opt-in, but they come from various sources, so I'd like
> to be able to pick sources for each mailing and essentially build a list
> each time from various criteria.
> 
> I'd prefer open source (of course) with an active development community,
> and we maintain our own server with many virtual domains. I realize no
> single package can do all that, but suggestion and comments are welcome.
> Thanks.
> 
> John Fisher
> TenantNet
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Tenant Network(tm) for Residential Tenants
>   TenantNet(tm):          http://tenant.net
>   email:                  tenant at tenant.net
> Information from TenantNet is from experienced non-attorney tenant
> activists and is not considered legal advice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

- --
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
  Information nimmt Gestalt an... - <http://www.werkbank.com>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Werkbank Multimedia GmbH * Bergstrasse 152 * 44791 Bochum * GER
Fon: +49(0)234/ 935386-03  * Fax: 935386-06 * mail at werkbank.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkUFDmsACgkQrtkX100RwBTc1QCfe5uDM5CfREq8lxwUX+t/2Wq8
YHMAoIaJ4ZvptNi1d2A7WjihcsTEe1vR
=3PnT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From perl at ipchains.ru  Mon Sep 11 10:04:31 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg Dambaev)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:04:31 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] a few details
In-Reply-To: <20060911021302.GF8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
References: <20060911021302.GF8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
Message-ID: <4505188F.9090004@ipchains.ru>

Matt Herzog wrote:
> I'm running mailman-2.1.6 on NetBSD 3.0 Sparc64.
>
> 1. Mailman is user 1003, group 1003 and all the scripts and binaries in
> /usr/pkg/lib/mailman/Mailman are owned by root:mailman except for:
>
> -rw-r--r--   1 www   mailman  21200 Sep 10 21:02 Defaults.pyc
> -rw-r--r--   1 www   mailman   1116 Sep 10 21:20 mm_cfg.pyc
>
> 2. mailmanctl and qrunner are not running, and never have run to my knowledge.
>
> 3. ma /etc/postfix# /usr/pkg/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms", line 50, in ?
>       MAILMAN_GID = grp.getgrnam(MAILMAN_GROUP)[2]
> 	KeyError: 'getgrnam(): name not found: '
>
> 4. Postfix works fine sending and receiving from mutt.
>
> 5. The perms on the aliases data dir look like this:
>
> ma /var/db/mailman/data# ls -la
> drwxrwxr-x  2 mailman  mailman    512 Aug 28 13:56 .
> drwxrwxr-x  9 mailman  mailman    512 Aug 27 14:14 ..
> -rw-r-----  1 root     mailman     41 Sep 10 17:51 adm.pw
> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman   1944 Sep 10 21:36 aliases
> -rw-r-----  1 mailman  mailman  65536 Sep 10 22:02 aliases.db
>
> 6. The aliases are not getting pulled into /etc/postfix/aliases from
> /var/db/mailman/data/aliases, which looks like this:
>
> # The ultimate loop stopper address
> mailman-loop: /var/db/mailman/data/owner-bounces.mbox
>
> # STANZA START: discuss
> # CREATED: Sun Sep 10 21:36:43 2006
> discuss:             "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post discuss"
> discuss-admin:       "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman admin discuss"
> discuss-bounces:     "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces discuss"
> discuss-confirm:     "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman confirm discuss"
> discuss-join:        "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman join discuss"
> discuss-leave:       "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman leave discuss"
> discuss-owner:       "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner discuss"
> discuss-request:     "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request discuss"
> discuss-subscribe:   "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe discuss"
> discuss-unsubscribe: "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe
> discuss"
> # STANZA END: discuss
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/perl%40ipchains.ru
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>   
echo "mailman:*:92:" >> /etc/group

replace ``92'' with needed groupid


From jjloose at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Sep 11 13:50:28 2006
From: jjloose at yahoo.co.uk (Jon Loose)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:50:28 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL
Message-ID: <20060911115028.11378.qmail@web25704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Sure, they simply do not receive invitations to join that have been sent out.  Note, I am working on a small sample here -  there are 5-10 affected people.  However, no-one else (outside AOL) has had this kind of problem.  I assume also that the 'evictions' issue is also relevant, but I don't know.

Thanks,

Jon



----- Original Message ----
From: Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
To: Jon Loose <jjloose at yahoo.co.uk>; mailman-users at python.org
Sent: Sunday, 10 September, 2006 8:17:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL

At 6:01 PM +0000 2006-09-10, Jon Loose wrote:

>  Second - I have found problems with invites to AOL addresses. Is this a
>  common issue?  If so, I'd be interested to know what the issue is, and
>  if anything can be done (apart from obviously encouraging people to
>  dump AOL!).

What problems?  Can you be more specific?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.








From dellsworth at insightbb.com  Mon Sep 11 14:39:15 2006
From: dellsworth at insightbb.com (David Ellsworth)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:39:15 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML Newsletter Setup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.58.0609081329370.15703@albion.stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <C12AD133.16734%dellsworth@insightbb.com>


Thanks to Larry's timely and knowledgeable help, I can now get the HTML to
the list this way. The problem now is that the HTML doesn't work in the
arrived email. The text is centered and the top graphic (which is correctly
linked) isn't showing up. I'm not even using any settings in Content
Filtering. Is there any other Mailman-specific settings for allowing HTML?

The file I'm using is here (the email should look like this):

http://www.circlecitysports.com/newsletter/ccsnews.html

But it comes in looking like this:

http://www.circlecitysports.com/newsletter/error.html

When I send it just to myself, it formats correctly.

Any ideas gratefully acknowledged.

Thanks

David

On 9/8/06 2:35 PM, "Larry Stone" <lstone19 at stonejongleux.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 8 Sep 2006, David Ellsworth wrote:
> 
>> So I tried and enter Approved: password in the header of an account's
>> options setting and it wouldn't let me add a colon. Couldn't find anything
>> in Help either. More information please?
> 
> Do what I did when testing this this morning before I sent the reply. When
> Entourage wouldn't allow me to enter a colon, I reasoned that since the
> colon is always there as a separator between the header name and the
> header value, Entourage must add it for me. I tried it on a test send to
> myself (since it's not going through Mailman, the Approved header doesn't
> get stripped*). Opened the message, looked at the header, and there it was
> with the colon as I expected.
> 
> * Just a warning that you should never CC: a message with an Approved
> header or first line to someone you don't 100% trust since it will not get
> stripped from copies that aren't processed through Mailman.
> 
> -- Larry Stone
>    lstone19 at stonejongleux.com



From gail.lists at verizon.net  Mon Sep 11 14:52:03 2006
From: gail.lists at verizon.net (Gail)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:52:03 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL
Message-ID: <C12AD432.C5603%gail.lists@verizon.net>


My experience with AOL, unrelated to Mailman, maybe of more help.  Almost
without exception is all part of AOL's misguided attempts to block SPAM.  I
doubt its a Mailman issue, even the POS we're going to replace with Mailman
hasn't been the cause of issues with AOL.  Usually this has happened when
the level of security the user has on their account is higher which will
sometimes makes AOL trash the mail.  Perhaps your sign up instructions
should include instruction to those signing up  to add the list address to
their address book, or white list at AOL which might help.

Also, you should check to see if AOL has black listed your domain and if so,
apply for white list status which is annoying and time consuming but usually
gets done rather quickly.  Save that application as they'll periodically
black list you again for no apparent reason.  Also make sure your ISP has
assigned a static IP address to your list, AOL and a number of other ISPs
tend to block mail from a variable IP address.  Even if you've had a static
one, check again as my ISP running the list on has, from time to time,
reverted it back to variable for no apparent reasons.

I wish I only had 5 to 10 with AOL, I've got over 1000 and all write
complaining when their mail doesn't arrive!

HTH
Gail


> Sure, they simply do not receive invitations to join that have been sent out.
> Note, I am working on a small sample here -  there are 5-10 affected people.
> However, no-one else (outside AOL) has had this kind of problem.  I assume
> also that the 'evictions' issue is also relevant, but I don't know.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jon
> 



From b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov  Mon Sep 11 14:59:44 2006
From: b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 07:59:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about Security Bulletin
Message-ID: <200609111259.k8BCxiFC027108@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>

There was a CIAC bulletin last week pertaining to Mailman:

            __________________________________________________________

                       The U.S. Department of Energy
                   Computer Incident Advisory Capability
                           ___  __ __    _     ___
                          /       |     /_\   /
                          \___  __|__  /   \  \___
             __________________________________________________________

                             INFORMATION BULLETIN

                            Mailman Security Update
                          [Red Hat RHSA-2006:0600-11]

September 7, 2006 17:00 GMT                                       Number Q-305
______________________________________________________________________________
PROBLEM:       There are several security vulnerabilities in Mailman: 
               1) A flaw was found in the way Mailman handled MIME multipart 
                  messages; and 
			   2) Several cross-site scripting (XSS) issues were found in Mailman. 
PLATFORM:      Red Hat Desktop (v. 3 & v. 4) 
               Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS, ES, WS (v. 3 & v. 4) 
DAMAGE:        1) An attacker could send a carefully crafted MIME multipart 
               email message to a mailing list run by Mailman which caused 
               that particular mailing list to stop working; and 2) An 
               attacker could exploit these issues to perform cross-site 
               scripting attacks against the Mailman administrator. 
SOLUTION:      Upgrade to the appropriate version. 
______________________________________________________________________________
VULNERABILITY  The risk is LOW. 1) An attacker could send a carefully crafted 
ASSESSMENT:    MIME multipart email message to a mailing list run by Mailman 
               which caused that particular mailing list to stop working; and 
               2) An attacker could exploit these issues to perform cross-site 
               scripting attacks against the Mailman administrator. 
______________________________________________________________________________
LINKS: 
 CIAC BULLETIN:      http://www.ciac.org/ciac/bulletins/q-305.shtml 
 ORIGINAL BULLETIN:  Red Hat RHSA-2006:0600-11
                     https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/RHSA-2006-0600.html 
 CVE:                http://www.cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name= 
                     CVE-2006-2941 CVE-2006-3636 
______________________________________________________________________________


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Version: 4.0 Business Edition

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FpvHgrwmO38sKPvh0tuMoET92A7WBxsZ6RGnVw6Ck6lDttVBFoZiu0RM0gDAKsnZ
/DnCz3pYvss=
=DBSM
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This bulletin only mentions Red Hat.  Does the bulletin apply only
to Red Hat distributions, or does it apply to all Mailman distributions?
The links mention 

     mailman-2.1.5.1-25.rhel3.7.src.rpm

Is this a problem that only affects 2.1.5, or does it affect subsequent
versions of Mailman?  Thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994



From justbrits at comcast.net  Mon Sep 11 16:24:39 2006
From: justbrits at comcast.net (JB@comcast)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:24:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL
References: <C12AD432.C5603%gail.lists@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c6d5ae$045939e0$6701a8c0@actualshop>

<<I wish I only had 5 to 10 with AOL, I've got over 1000 and all write
complaining when their mail doesn't arrive!>>

I've only a couple dozen on 7 Lists and they SCREAM, Gail!!  -:)

AOL = PITA

Ed

From msh at pigeonier.org  Mon Sep 11 16:32:54 2006
From: msh at pigeonier.org (Matt Herzog)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:32:54 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] a few details
In-Reply-To: <4505188F.9090004@ipchains.ru>
References: <20060911021302.GF8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
	<4505188F.9090004@ipchains.ru>
Message-ID: <20060911143254.GI8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>

On Mon, Sep 11, 2006 at 12:04:31PM +0400, Oleg Dambaev wrote:
> >   
> echo "mailman:*:92:" >> /etc/group
> 
> replace ``92'' with needed groupid

I sould preface this by saying it is 99% certain that all my mailman problems are due to NetBSD's pkgsrc being completely fubar, and I mean ALL of pkgsrc. I should prolly compile mailman outside of pkgsrc.

Thanks but I did have a mailman group and mailman user and the mailman package was compiled with:

MAILMAN_USER?=          mailman
MAILMAN_GROUP?=         mailman
MAILMAN_MAILGROUP?=     guest # group of user 'daemon'

I added:

MAILMAN_USER = 'mailman'
MAILMAN_GROUP= 'mailman'

to mm_cfg.py to fix the mailmanctl/daemon issue.

When I try try to accept an invitation to a group I get this bounce message:

<mung-request at pigeonnier.org>: Command died with status 2:
    "/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request mung". Command output: Group
    mismatch error.  Mailman expected the mail wrapper script to be executed
+as
    group "guest", but the system's mail server executed the mail script as
    group "mailman".  Try tweaking the mail server to run the script as
+group
    "guest", or re-run configure,  providing the command line option
    `--with-mail-gid=mailman'.


From theall at tifaware.com  Mon Sep 11 16:10:36 2006
From: theall at tifaware.com (George A. Theall)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:10:36 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about Security Bulletin
In-Reply-To: <200609111259.k8BCxiFC027108@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
References: <200609111259.k8BCxiFC027108@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <20060911141036.GC9445@tifaware.com>

On Mon, Sep 11, 2006 at 07:59:44AM -0500, Barry Finkel wrote:

> This bulletin only mentions Red Hat.  Does the bulletin apply only
> to Red Hat distributions, or does it apply to all Mailman distributions?

The general Mailman distribution is affected as well; see:

http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=444295&group_id=103

> Is this a problem that only affects 2.1.5, or does it affect subsequent
> versions of Mailman?  Thanks.

If you have access to Nessus, you may want to take a look at a plugin
I wrote to check for the first issue mentioned:

  http://www.nessus.org/plugins/index.php?view=single&id=22307

[The plugin is available now to those with a direct feed and will become
available tomorrow for those with a registered feed.] I run a few lists
with 2.1.6 and that version is definitely vulnerable. 


George
-- 
theall at tifaware.com
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From antennex at swbell.net  Mon Sep 11 18:12:13 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:12:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Alternate SMTP setup
Message-ID: <20060911161213.69397.qmail@web82414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

In an effort to further tuneup/speedup the list deliveries (being choked again today), I have used the method below about an alternate smtp for mailman's use. However, I have yet to see any packets go through port 1313.
   
  My posting lists are not huge, each under 1000.
   
  Sockstats shows that port is assigned to 127.0.0.1 okay, and the processes show the added instance of sendmail running okay. What did I miss?
   
  Here is my setup im mm_cfg.py:
  # Tuning stuff
SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 10
QRUNNER_LOCK_LIFETIME = hours(20)
QRUNNER_PROCESS_LIFETIME = hours(2)
QRUNNER_MAX_MESSAGES = 50000
  # define alternate SMTP port
SMTPPORT = 1313
   
  Running MM-2.8x/FBSD-6.1/Sendmail-8.13.6

        /usr/sbin/sendmail -bd -ODeliveryMode=defer \                 -ODaemonPortOptions=Name=MSA,Port=NNNN,M=E,Addr=127.0.0.1  

    Where NNNN is some port number not otherwise used (you can test       if something's in use by doing "telnet localhost NNNN" -- if it's      refused, there's no daemon listening)  

    This sets up a sendmail process listening to the alternate port,       in DEFER mode, but set to talk only to the localhost interface,       so it's not accessible by anyoneother than your local machine:       no open relay problems.  

    To make mailman access that port, add this to your mm_cfg.py:  

        # define alternate SMTP port          SMTPPORT = 1313


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From tmz at pobox.com  Mon Sep 11 18:31:21 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:31:21 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] a few details
In-Reply-To: <20060911143254.GI8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
References: <20060911021302.GF8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
	<4505188F.9090004@ipchains.ru>
	<20060911143254.GI8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
Message-ID: <20060911163121.GC1153@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Matt Herzog wrote:
> When I try try to accept an invitation to a group I get this bounce message:
> 
> <mung-request at pigeonnier.org>: Command died with status 2:
>     "/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request mung". Command
>     output: Group mismatch error.  Mailman expected the mail wrapper
>     script to be executed as group "guest", but the system's mail
>     server executed the mail script as group "mailman".  Try
>     tweaking the mail server to run the script as group "guest", or
>     re-run configure,  providing the command line option
>     `--with-mail-gid=mailman'.

You're using postfix, correct?  Do you have MTA='Postfix' in
mm_cfg.py?  If not, that's the best way to integrate mailman and
postfix, IMO.  Once that's done, you should check that the permissions
are correct for the alias files ($PREFIX/data/aliases{,.db}).  They
should be owner and group mailman and group writable.

See the mailman installation manual for more details:

    http://mailman.sourceforge.net/mailman-install/node13.html

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Good judgment comes with experience.  Unfortunately, the experience
usually comes from bad judgment.

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From msh at pigeonier.org  Mon Sep 11 19:20:51 2006
From: msh at pigeonier.org (Matt Herzog)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 13:20:51 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] a few details
In-Reply-To: <20060911163121.GC1153@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <2006