From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 00:17:11 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:17:11 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
Message-ID: <200609010017.11978.k.oliver@t-online.de>

Hello,
I installed and configured mailman on Debian Sarge running apache2 and exim4. 
I set up a list and the list adminstrator / owner can post to the list from a 
remote client. I am pretty sure that the mailman config is right and that 
there is a problem with the exim4 config. Non local subscribers cannot post 
to the list. The Exim4 log always says that relay is not permitted. 

/var/log/exim4/mainlog:
2006-09-01 00:00:52 H=mailout01.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.80] 
F=<k.oliver at t-online.de> rejected RCPT <news at server.windfinder.com>: relay 
not permitted

Here are parts of my exim4 config:
[..]
# On Debian systems, the main binary is installed as exim4 to avoid
# conflicts with the exim 3 packages.
exim_path = /usr/sbin/exim4

# Macro defining the main configuration directory.
# We do not use absolute paths.
.ifndef CONFDIR
CONFDIR = /etc/exim4
.endif

# This sets a macro DC_minimaldns if dc_minimaldns=true. If
# dc_minimaldns=false, this expands to an empty line.
.ifndef DC_minimaldns
DEBCONFminimaldnsDEBCONF
.endif

# Create other macros from Debconf. Macros created here are used in
# other places in exim config.
.ifndef DC_visiblename
DC_visiblename=DEBCONFvisiblenameDEBCONF
.endif

# Create domain and host lists for relay control
# '@' refers to 'the name of the local host'

.ifndef MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS
MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS = DEBCONFlocal_domainsDEBCONF
.endif
domainlist local_domains = MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS

.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS
MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS = DEBCONFrelay_domainsDEBCONF
.endif
domainlist relay_to_domains = MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS

.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_NETS
MAIN_RELAY_NETS = DEBCONFrelay_netsDEBCONF
.endif
hostlist relay_from_hosts = 127.0.0.1 : ::::1 : MAIN_RELAY_NETS

# Specify the domain you want to be added to all unqualified addresses
# here. Unqualified addresses are accepted only from local callers by
# default. The recipient_unqualified_hosts option can be used to permit
# unqualified addresses from remote sources.
# If qualify_domain is not set, the primary_hostname value is used for
# qualification.
# The ifdef bracket makes sure that an empty debconf value is correctly
# translated to "unset".
.ifdef DC_visiblename
qualify_domain = DC_visiblename
.endif
[..]
# Home dir for your Mailman installation -- aka Mailman's prefix
# directory.
# By default this is set to "/usr/local/mailman"
# On a Red Hat/Fedora system using the RPM use "/var/mailman"
# On Debian using the deb package use "/var/lib/mailman"
# This is normally the same as ~mailman
MAILMAN_HOME=/var/lib/mailman
#
# User and group for Mailman, should match your --with-mail-gid
# switch to Mailman's configure script.
# Value is normally "mailman"
MAILMAN_USER=list
MAILMAN_GROUP=daemon
#
# Domains that your lists are in - colon separated list
# you may wish to add these into local_domains as well
domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS=news.server.windfinder.com
#
# -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
#
# These values are derived from the ones above and should not need
# editing unless you have munged your mailman installation
#
# The path of the Mailman mail wrapper script
MAILMAN_WRAP=MAILMAN_HOME/mail/mailman
#
# The path of the list config file (used as a required file when
# verifying list addresses)
MAILMAN_LISTCHK=MAILMAN_HOME/lists/${lc::$local_part}/config.pck
[..]
begin routers

mailman_router:
driver = accept
require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
local_part_suffix_optional
local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
-confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
-owner : -request : -admin
transport = mailman_transport
[..]
begin transports

mailman_transport:
driver = pipe
command = MAILMAN_WRAP \
'${if def:local_part_suffix \
{${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
{post}}' \
$local_part
current_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
home_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
user = MAILMAN_USER
group = MAILMAN_GROUP

Any idea how to configure Exim4 to allow posting to mailing list for 
subscribers like someone at somedomain.tld?


From tomnaugh at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 00:56:43 2006
From: tomnaugh at gmail.com (Tom Kavanaugh)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:56:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View Subscriber list format
In-Reply-To: <98a90c220608311436i14e1cd7dmbbb0fa6bf7c5eb21@mail.gmail.com>
References: <98a90c220608311013k1972c218t6dcb2c688971546f@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC17602006083110270805315071e57b@msapiro>
	<98a90c220608311436i14e1cd7dmbbb0fa6bf7c5eb21@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <98a90c220608311556r292cda74p9e8d96540b2cc8fb@mail.gmail.com>

Is there a way to incorporate this change across all exisitng mail lists?
I looked at commands in mailman/bin but did not find any command that could
do this for me. Or, am I missing something?

Later,
Tom

On 8/31/06, Tom Kavanaugh <tomnaugh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> That workes!
> Thanks folks.
>
>
> On 8/31/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> >
> > Tom Kavanaugh wrote:
> > >
> > >Currently "View subscribers list" displays members in the following
> > format:
> > >first.last at my.domain.com
> > >
> > >Is it possible to change the format to:
> > >first.last at my.domain.com
> >
> >
> > in the list admin intervace set Privacy options...->Subscription
> > rules->obscure_addresses to No.
> >
> > This will display the email address with '@' instead of ' at '. The
> > 'local part' of the address will be unchanged. If it is of form
> > first.last, it will be shown that way, but if it is of some other
> > form, it will be shown as whatever it is.
> >
> > --
> > Mark Sapiro < msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> > San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> >
> >
>


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 01:01:25 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:01:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <200609010017.11978.k.oliver@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <PC17602006083116012505783de67c9b@msapiro>

Oliver K?nig wrote:

>I am pretty sure that the mailman config is right and that 
>there is a problem with the exim4 config. Non local subscribers cannot post 
>to the list. The Exim4 log always says that relay is not permitted. 


Yes, that would be an Exim config problem.


>Here are parts of my exim4 config:
<snip>
># Domains that your lists are in - colon separated list
># you may wish to add these into local_domains as well
>domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS=news.server.windfinder.com


And what about server.windfinder.com? And did you add it to
local_domains?


<snip>
>mailman_router:
>driver = accept
>require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
>local_part_suffix_optional
>local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
>-confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
>-owner : -request : -admin
>transport = mailman_transport


The above is incomplete. It is not the cause of your problem, but see
<http://www.exim.org/howto/mailman21.html#roconf> for what the
mailman_router: should be. In particular, the above is missing
-confirm, -subscribe and -unsubscribe in local_part_suffix and is
missing
domains = +MAILMAN_DOMAINS to prevent mail to an address that looks
like a list but in another domain from being delivered to the list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 01:22:14 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:22:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View Subscriber list format
In-Reply-To: <98a90c220608311556r292cda74p9e8d96540b2cc8fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006083116221403123de67b86@msapiro>

Tom Kavanaugh wrote:
>
>Is there a way to incorporate this change across all exisitng mail lists?
>I looked at commands in mailman/bin but did not find any command that could
>do this for me. Or, am I missing something?


First, you want to put

DEFAULT_OBSCURE_ADDRESSES = No

in mm_cfg.py so new lists will be created with obscure_address = No.

Then you have two choices for existing lists, bin/withlist and
bin/config_list. config_list is easier to describe so, put the
following 1 line in a file

obscure_addresses = 0

and run a shell script like

#!/bin/sh
for list in `bin/list_lists --bare`
do bin/config_list -i file $list
done

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 01:09:08 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:09:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
Message-ID: <p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>

At 10:06 AM -0700 2006-08-31, John W. Baxter quoted "Brad Knowles" 
<brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>:

>>  We're not a commercial environment, and we've actually had pretty bad
>>  experiences with people/companies that are in commercial environments
>>  taking our software and making unapproved modifications to it, or
>>  providing the software to their customers but *not* providing
>>  adequate support to those customers.
>
>  "unapproved" may be a bit strong.  Perhaps "un-vetted" would be closer?

Actually, I think either "unapproved" or "unauthorized" are the most 
appropriate terms.  After all, the code is released under the GPL, 
and anyone who is making modifications to that code and then making 
their modified version available to their customers (or otherwise 
benefiting from those modifications) are supposed to contribute the 
source to their changes back to the community.  But CPanel has not 
done this, neither has Plesk, nor Apple.

Now, in a way, Apple gives back to the project more than they 
probably realize, but that's not the same thing.


So, while we don't make that big a deal of this issue, I think I'm 
actually being reasonably lenient on these companies.

>>  I just recently wrote a FAQ entry on this subject -- see FAQ 1.32.
>
>  Quite nicely done!

Thanks!

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 01:24:40 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:24:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <44F72DF3.4060706@hivemind.net>
References: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>
	<25DB89FB2DB1CFAAF1AB8959@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>
	<44F72DF3.4060706@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <p06240508c11d1fba0a8a@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:44 PM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote:

>  The point I was illustrating is that if you have to justify the rationale
>  behind a default setting to a third-party-decision-maker -- what is the most
>  appropriate and concise response?

This is the key point that was not coming across to me, at least not 
until much later in the exchange.  Speaking only for myself, I 
seriously misunderstood what you were asking and why, which greatly 
colored my responses.

I'm still not certain that we've given you the best answer to this 
question, but I'm hoping that you'll be able to synthesize something 
that you will then be able to contribute back to the community, and 
we will hopefully be able to avoid these kinds of problems in the 
future -- at least with respect to this one particular issue.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 01:21:10 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:21:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <44F729B6.7000507@hivemind.net>
References: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060831102919.0632dfa0@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F729B6.7000507@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <p06240507c11d1d076879@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:25 PM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote:

>  I view it differently. I have had great feedback and I highly doubt either
>  of the parties mentioned viewed a response as a "restraining, difficult
>  exercise". I /really/ use lists to their full advantage and with some in
>  particular have never felt my input or response was an exercise in patience
>  or restraint. It's a labour of love. You do it because it's what you do.

Maybe I'm getting better at this process than I have been in the 
past, but I most definitely held back quite a bit in my responses.  I 
did allow myself to get a bit testy, but that's about it.

It took me a while to realize that you were more playing devil's 
advocate (on behalf of your boss) as opposed to actually believing in 
some of the things you were saying.


And yes, a great deal of context is lost in e-mail.  Remember that 
about 90% of all human communication is not verbalized, and of the 
remainder about 90% is more in the tone of how you respond as opposed 
to the actual words that are chosen.  Pretty much all of that is lost 
in e-mail, leaving only the words -- and about 1% of what would 
normally be conveyed in a natural human conversation.

>  That's not to say I don't appreciate a response (some time after the fact)
>  with another avenue to explore (thanks Mark) but compare the difference
>  between "you're harping on about nothing" to "have you tried this?". The
>  latter (in hindsight) is blindingly obvious -- and yet no-one else let their
>  sub-conscious ponder the problem a while longer.

A lot of my responses were defensive in nature, responding to the way 
I felt that our entire community was being attacked, and I took that 
pretty personally.

As such, there really wasn't any time available for me to ponder the 
question in any more depth.  If I'd had that time, I might have been 
able to find a better way to convey what it was I was trying to get 
across.

Now, I may have managed to moderate my response quite a bit, but that 
doesn't change the fundamental nature of the situation as it occurred.

>  Lists are communities. And community isn't about 'gifts' from the elders or
>  sticking to sensible rules. It's about invigorating the elders so they feel
>  like children in a toy-store again.

It should be about enabling people to contribute something and allow 
them to feel useful, in whatever way that they find that they are 
best able to do.  We don't always succeed in that goal, however.  But 
as we work towards that goal, we should find that when everyone helps 
everyone else, we all benefit from the combined strength, and the 
result is much greater than the sum of its parts.

The big problem comes when a new person comes in, or a new situation 
occurs, and one or more members of the community feels like they are 
being attacked, and how they respond.  The result can either 
strengthen the enlarged community, or be extremely destructive.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 07:32:01 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:32:01 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brad Knowles writes:
 > At 10:06 AM -0700 2006-08-31, John W. Baxter quoted "Brad Knowles" 
 > <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>:
 > 
 > >>  We're not a commercial environment, and we've actually had pretty bad
 > >>  experiences with people/companies that are in commercial environments
 > >>  taking our software and making unapproved modifications to it, or
 > >>  providing the software to their customers but *not* providing
 > >>  adequate support to those customers.
 > >
 > >  "unapproved" may be a bit strong.  Perhaps "un-vetted" would be closer?
 > 
 > Actually, I think either "unapproved" or "unauthorized" are the most 
 > appropriate terms.  After all, the code is released under the GPL, 

Excuse me?  The GPL *explicitly* approves and authorizes (not to
mention implicitly encourages) modification and redistribution without
conditions other than providing source.  That's exactly what "license"
means.

Has anybody at Mailman asked CPanel, Plesk, or Apple for source and
been refused?  Or one of their customers, and been refused because
they were under NDA?  If we haven't asked, how can we bitch?

 > and anyone who is making modifications to that code and then making 
 > their modified version available to their customers (or otherwise 
 > benefiting from those modifications) are supposed to contribute the 
 > source to their changes back to the community.  But CPanel has not 
 > done this, neither has Plesk, nor Apple.

C'mon, Brad, you know what the GPL actually says.  They're supposed to
give the source to their customers.  That's all it says.

It is quite possible to write a license that says you *must* give your
modifications back to some entity.  You could argue that the reason
the GPL doesn't do that is that "the community" is the only
appropriate beneficiary, but it's impossible to legally define "the
community" in a satisfactory way.  But I don't think that's what
Richard Stallman has in mind when he declares licenses containing such
clauses "unfree".  Nor do they satisfy the DFSG or the OSD.  I believe
it's that the whole idea of demanding payment of any kind is unfree.

 > So, while we don't make that big a deal of this issue, I think I'm 
 > actually being reasonably lenient on these companies.

I would say we're not trying to accomplish by jawbone what we refuse
to put in the license.  And that's very important to me.  It's one of
the things I like best about this community.  Of course you're
certainly welcome to consider that you're being lenient; I'm simply
explaining that I very much appreciate your lenience, but I
rationalize it differently.

Once again, has anybody simply *asked* these companies for their code,
and maybe for some contribution of labor toward integrating it?  If
so, how recently?  I realize that we probably "dislike" some of their
changes, so they wouldn't make it into the mainline (at least not as
defaults), but it could exist on more or less deprecated branches.
Surely there are CPanel- or Plesk-using ISPs who would like to have
Mailman project support available to their customers; we should be
able to get moral, if not financial, support from them.

Sincere regards,
Steve




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 08:39:21 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:39:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:32 PM +0900 2006-09-01, <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

>  Excuse me?  The GPL *explicitly* approves and authorizes (not to
>  mention implicitly encourages) modification and redistribution without
>  conditions other than providing source.  That's exactly what "license"
>  means.

Right, and they haven't provided the source.

>  Has anybody at Mailman asked CPanel, Plesk, or Apple for source and
>  been refused?  Or one of their customers, and been refused because
>  they were under NDA?  If we haven't asked, how can we bitch?

I don't know about CPanel or Plesk, but I'd be willing to bet that 
they would not be willing to provide the source code to their changes 
to anyone, although a knowledgeable person could extract the source 
code differences by comparing what is shipped by the commercial 
vendor against our code, although it might take some work to figure 
out which version of our code they should be comparing against.

I'm pretty sure that I know what the answer would be from Apple.  You 
see, the primary problem is that the Server Group is totally and 
completely unresponsive to their own high-paying Platinum-account 
customers (i.e., major Universities and businesses with thousands or 
tens of thousands of machines), and likewise completely unresponsive 
even to internal people at Apple who are working in other groups.


You'd have to ask Barry as to whether or not he has actually 
contacted these groups to ask them to contribute their code changes 
back to the community, or if anyone has gone to the FSF lawyers to 
have them send a letter requesting that the company in question honor 
their obligations under the GPL.

I just don't have the answers to the questions you're asking me.


Moreover, I don't think that it's reasonable for you to respond to me 
in this manner.  What have I ever done to you?  When have I ever said 
anything that would lead you to believe that I would have the kinds 
of answers you require to these extremely loaded questions you're 
asking?


If you want to get into a diatribe about licensing, please be aware 
that I'm a BSD guy, and I've found myself surrounded by a bunch of 
GPL types, so license-wise I've tended to say pretty quiet.

But if you want to argue the finer points of the GPL with someone, my 
response is going to be that none of this would be a problem if 
they'd just use a BSD-like license instead and then be done with it.

As such, I'm not going to be your foil for your GPL holy war, and if 
you want that then you would be better off looking elsewhere.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 08:47:54 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:47:54 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <p0624050fc11d87de72b1@[10.0.1.210]>

At 1:39 AM -0500 2006-09-01, Brad Knowles wrote:

>  If you want to get into a diatribe about licensing, please be aware that
>  I'm a BSD guy, and I've found myself surrounded by a bunch of GPL types,
>  so license-wise I've tended to say pretty quiet.

Sorry, I meant "... stay pretty quiet".  That was a bad typo to have 
in such a place.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From bretton at hivemind.net  Fri Sep  1 11:36:31 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:36:31 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240508c11d1fba0a8a@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>
	<25DB89FB2DB1CFAAF1AB8959@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>
	<44F72DF3.4060706@hivemind.net>
	<p06240508c11d1fba0a8a@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <44F7FF1F.1080008@hivemind.net>

Brad Knowles said the following on 2006/09/01 01:24 AM:
> This is the key point that was not coming across to me, at least not
> until much later in the exchange.  Speaking only for myself, I seriously
> misunderstood what you were asking and why, which greatly colored my
> responses.

My apologies, I could have been clearer. I did try and fork the thread with
the inclusion of (devils advocate!) in the subject line.

> I'm still not certain that we've given you the best answer to this
> question, but I'm hoping that you'll be able to synthesize something
> that you will then be able to contribute back to the community, and we
> will hopefully be able to avoid these kinds of problems in the future --
> at least with respect to this one particular issue.

I may not have what I was looking specifically, but I do have a clearer of
how to approach things in future.

I've had to edit context significantly for various reasons (brevity being
one) but it comes down this. We've had a solution in place for 10 years that
just works but doesn't offer us the functionality we need or clients want
any more. I've been on mailman run lists for ~6 years and found the setup to
be more useful and when the time came for a new server had to make a number
of decisions based on skills available, difference in volumes of legitimate
mail and spam today (compared to setup of ageing server from 96) and new
things to be learnt using a different OS and architecture.

A mistake appears to be the perception (prior to installation and initial
use phase) that Mailman was Majordomo with a web-gui and archives. It's not.
It's a different product and approach entirely. This realisation is hammered
home in the implementation of Mailman -- but not easily visible when
researching alternative solutions to the previous way we did things.

Such a mistaken perception is echoed both up to management and down to users
in selling the solution. You get approval, go ahead and implement and then
there this "oops" moment and realisation you didn't have all the knowledge
to begin with, and sold management and users a solution you just couldn't
(at the time) anticipate certain problems with. So it's your head on the
block and you either have to wing it or come up with an explanation that
satisfies both users and management without too much trouble in the process.

Just as an example, some list-owners have pending administrative request
queues numbering in the hundreds already. No amount of prodding or pushing
or assisting helps them just to complete a small and easy daily task.
Feedback is "my prior list didn't bother me with stuff" or "Oh, I used to
just ignore that stuff anyway". Horse --> water situation.

Additionally in terms of the historical setup, things with majordomo were
already highly customised to our needs, and when I came in I
assumed/took-for-granted this was the default (old system has even worse
documentation than anything else I've seen <chuckles>) and also assumed
thing would be echoed in the Mailman setup. My mistake, but during the "ask
around for suggestions" phase most of the feedback I got was Mailman
orientated, like the move is just a casual change in clothes. It's not :-)

Now despite my mixed positive/negative reactions to documentation and
feedback from the list, and growing growing appreciation of why certain
things were done a certain way, neither users or management have the time to
sift through the same volume of information to reach a satisfactory
conclusion. Instead you get a very offensive response due to resistance to
change, or new variables.

You see the following doesn't cut it in that situation:

 * but we can change it
 * we can modify the source if we need to
 * that's the way the developers chose to do it
 * the documentation was lacking

In an environment where someone has to take responsibility for a situation,
even if it's not their fault as such, providing the best answer to users or
management can go two ways. Shift the blame, or fix the problem -- even if
it means undoing the best practices suggested and letting users/management
realise for themselves why it's a bad idea. But in some environments you
just can't afford to do this.

So far I've discovered that yes, most of the safe defaults are the best
desired functionality. And that on a Debian/Exim setup it's best to install
from source, and if using virtual domains to install a separate installation
of mailman per domain. The additional overhead on the box isn't that much
for ~20 domains. It might be for more than that though. I've also found the
documentation to be scattered but where there is info that can be
referenced, it's generally pretty good.

Once we have a stable system that meets the needs of users and management
I'll be happy to share the setup of how we've done it in our particular way
along with some rationale behind the different decisions based both on what
I've learnt on this list, and from user/management feedback.

Obviously every installation is in a different environment, and as has been
mentioned Mailman isn't a one-stop-solution-for-all-situations solution.
There is also a lot of public misconception about Mailman in general --
things you only realise when you're actually implementing it on a box or run
into trouble. I doubt anyone is to blame for this -- there are simply too
many variables involved.

I'd suggest to anyone looking at Mailman as a solution search the
docs/FAQ/list-archives, *and* join the list and ask a few questions before
actually implementing. It's a lot easier to anticipate certain things that
way. :-)

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose
of common sense." - Chapman Cohen


From bretton at hivemind.net  Fri Sep  1 11:51:30 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:51:30 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>

Brad Knowles said the following on 2006/09/01 08:39 AM:
> If you want to get into a diatribe about licensing, please be aware 
> that I'm a BSD guy, and I've found myself surrounded by a bunch of 
> GPL types, so license-wise I've tended to say pretty quiet.

Note, the issues raised are not unique to Mailman or other popular GPL
products. There is an undercurrent of concern over how Ubuntu is building on
Dedian but not necessarily contributing back, and developer dissatisfaction
at the Debian level moving to the more trendy and dynamic Ubuntu front.

The GPL approach has obviously been useful (and popular) but I find many
'just solve the problem' type individuals seem to favour the BSD approach.
Kind of "you're welcome to use and modify, just don't blame us for any
consequences", whereas with the GPL it's more about a zealous popular
uprising against corporate overlords.

I don't think there is any obligation for someone who changes the source of
a GPL product to give the changes back to the original developers, but there
might be a case of 'good manners' at play in that it is polite to do so. I'm
sure developers welcome input even if they choose not to include it in the
primary code distribution.

One can however approach someone who has modified the source and request the
modified source but there may be trouble getting a diff version of the
modifications made and reasons why.

However it's probably a case of motivation. Developers would need to be
motivated to chase one of the organisations mentioned and it would be
time-consuming and require effort when they might prefer to be coding.
Obviously a gap here for a champion from within the user base to pursue the
matter further.

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"To teach a man how he may learn to grow independently, and for himself, is
perhaps the greatest service that one man can do another." - Benjamin Jowett


From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 13:40:49 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:40:49 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [exim] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <E1GJ694-0005Ka-9R@scyw00225.scy001.de>
References: <200609010022.35450.k.oliver@t-online.de>
	<E1GJ694-0005Ka-9R@scyw00225.scy001.de>
Message-ID: <200609011340.50213.k.oliver@t-online.de>

On Friday 01 September 2006 12:21, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:22:35 +0200, Oliver K?nig <k.oliver at t-online.de>
>
> wrote:
> >/var/log/exim4/mainlog:
> >2006-09-01 00:00:52 H=mailout01.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.80]
> >F=<k.oliver at t-online.de> rejected RCPT <news at server.windfinder.com>: relay
> >not permitted
>
> if mailout01.sul.t-online.com is your smarthost, then that box doesn't
> like to relay for you. Please note that T-Online has a rather severe
> daily mail volume limit and thus you won't have much fun with running
> a mailing list server via the T-Online mail servers.
>
> Additional to that, please make sure to read the documentation that
> came with your Debian package. May I ask how you managed to miss the
> pointers to the Debian specific mailing list and where you found the
> pointer to exim-users?
>
> Greetings
> Marc
Sorry, I forgot to say that I actually read /usr/share/doc/mailman/README.EXIM 
and changed my config. Still could not fix the problem:

This is my actual configuration:
/etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py:
[..]
# Default domain for email addresses of newly created MLs
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'server.windfinder.com'
[..]
------
/etc/exim4/exim4.conf.template (accepted after exim4 restart):
# Home dir for your Mailman installation -- aka Mailman's prefix
# directory.
MAILMAN_HOME=/var/lib/mailman
MAILMAN_WRAP=MAILMAN_HOME/mail/mailman

# User and group for Mailman, should match your --with-mail-gid
# switch to Mailman's configure script.
MAILMAN_USER=list
MAILMAN_GROUP=daemon

[..]
begin routers

mailman_router:
  driver = accept
  require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
  local_part_suffix_optional
  local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
                      -confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
                      -owner : -request : -admin
  transport = mailman_transport

[..]
begin transports

mailman_transport:
  driver = pipe
  command = MAILMAN_WRAP \
            '${if def:local_part_suffix \
                  {${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
                  {post}}' \
            $local_part
  current_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  home_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  user = MAILMAN_USER
  group = MAILMAN_GROUP
[..]
-----

When a subscriber posts to the list /var/log/exim4/mainlog says:
2006-09-01 13:37:27 H=mailout09.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.84] 
F=<k.oliver at t-online.de> rejected RCPT <news at server.windfinder.com>: relay 
not permitted

Any idea how to allow postings from subscribers? Thanks.

Oliver


From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 14:09:47 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:09:47 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

stephen at xemacs.org wrote:
> Has anybody at Mailman asked CPanel, Plesk, or Apple for source and
> been refused?  Or one of their customers, and been refused because
> they were under NDA?  If we haven't asked, how can we bitch?

I asked cPanel a few years ago.  I got the run-around and they closed
the support ticket 2 or 3 times without providing any source or diffs.
Only after persisting did they send me a link to a half-assed diff
that I know didn't match all that they changed.

I've since had the displeasure of working on a cPanel hosted system
and there is a source directory for mailman.  If anyone's really
curious, I'll diff it against whatever the official source release
they're claiming it is.

They may be honoring the letter of the license, but they deserve the
shit they get here for abusing the spirit of it so badly.  If I made
changes to Mailman that caused a regular stream of frequently asked
questions I'd fix the problems or get involved in helping answer them
just so I could sleep at night.  cPanel doesn't do that and they are
charging folks good money to package up free software.  That leaves a
bad taste in *my* mouth, and I'm not even a significant contributor to
Mailman.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
The more laws, the less justice.
    -- Marcus Tullius Cicero "De Officiis", 44 B.C.

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From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 14:22:33 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:22:33 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006083116012505783de67c9b@msapiro>
References: <PC17602006083116012505783de67c9b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <200609011422.33607.k.oliver@t-online.de>

Hello Marc,
thanks for your feedback. I have been trying to get it working for several 
weeks.

On Friday 01 September 2006 01:01, you wrote:
> Oliver K?nig wrote:
> >I am pretty sure that the mailman config is right and that
> >there is a problem with the exim4 config. Non local subscribers cannot
> > post to the list. The Exim4 log always says that relay is not permitted.
>
> Yes, that would be an Exim config problem.
>
> >Here are parts of my exim4 config:
>
> <snip>
>
> ># Domains that your lists are in - colon separated list
> ># you may wish to add these into local_domains as well
> >domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS=news.server.windfinder.com
>
> And what about server.windfinder.com? And did you add it to
> local_domains?
Just added it:
domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS= server.windfinder.com : news.server.windfinder.com

After exim4 restart the mail delivery failed completely (even for non mailman 
mail):

/var/log/exim4/mainlog
2006-09-01 10:39:13 1GJ4YH-0004nB-ND <= user at server.windfinder.com U=user 
P=local S=11314
2006-09-01 10:39:13 1GJ4YH-0004nB-ND unknown named domain 
list "+MAILMAN_domains"
2006-09-01 10:39:26 socket bind() to port 25 for address (any IPv4) failed: 
Address already in use: waiting before trying again
2006-09-01 10:39:49 1GJ4Z3-0004pq-Mi <= oliver at windfinder.com 
H=p548de4f5.dip.t-dialin.net ([192.168.0.2]) [84.141.228.245] P=esmtpsa 
X=TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32 A=plain_courier_authdaemon:oliver S=1609 
id=200609011039.15788.oliver at windfinder.com
2006-09-01 10:39:49 1GJ4Z3-0004pq-Mi unknown named domain 
list "+MAILMAN_domains"
2006-09-01 10:39:56 socket bind() to port 25 for address (any IPv4) failed: 
Address already in use: waiting before trying again
2006-09-01 10:40:01 1GJ4ZF-0004wl-Sf <= user at server.windfinder.com U=user 
P=local S=752
2006-09-01 10:40:01 1GJ4ZF-0004wl-Sf unknown named domain 
list "+MAILMAN_domains"
2006-09-01 10:40:02 1GJ4ZG-0004wv-6z <= user at server.windfinder.com U=user 
P=local S=737
2006-09-01 10:40:02 1GJ4ZG-0004wv-6z unknown named domain 
list "+MAILMAN_domains"


> <snip>
>
> >mailman_router:
> >driver = accept
> >require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
> >local_part_suffix_optional
> >local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
> >-confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
> >-owner : -request : -admin
> >transport = mailman_transport
>
> The above is incomplete. It is not the cause of your problem, but see
> <http://www.exim.org/howto/mailman21.html#roconf> for what the
> mailman_router: should be. In particular, the above is missing
> -confirm, -subscribe and -unsubscribe in local_part_suffix and is
> missing
> domains = +MAILMAN_DOMAINS to prevent mail to an address that looks
> like a list but in another domain from being delivered to the list.

I changed this according tohttp://www.exim.org/howto/mailman21.html to:
[..]
begin routers

mailman_router:
   driver = accept
   domains = +MAILMAN_domains
   require_files = MAILMAN_LISTCHK
   local_part_suffix_optional
   local_part_suffix = -admin     : \
-bounces   : -bounces+* : \
                       -confirm   : -confirm+* : \
-join      : -leave     : \
-owner    : -request   : \
-subscribe : -unsubscribe
   transport = mailman_transport
[..]
begin transports

mailman_transport:
  driver = pipe
  command = MAILMAN_WRAP \
            '${if def:local_part_suffix \
                  {${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
                  {post}}' \
            $local_part
  current_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  home_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  user = MAILMAN_USER
  group = MAILMAN_GROUP



From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 14:30:31 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 21:30:31 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <17656.10215.46422.826213@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brad Knowles writes:

 > I just don't have the answers to the questions you're asking me.

That's fine.

 > Moreover, I don't think that it's reasonable for you to respond to me 
 > in this manner.  What have I ever done to you?

Since you ask, lots of nice things.  I've certainly benefited from
your contributions to these lists and the FAQ.  Thank you!

I'm not sure what you mean by "manner", but the reason I responded is
that I got triggered by the juxtaposition of "us vs. them" language
with "GPL".  I agree that there's a justification for a feeling of "us
vs. them" between Mailman and the companies mentioned, but in my
experience the GPL normally contributes to such antagonism, and I've
never seen the GPL help alleviate it.  So I want the GPL out of the
discussion (unless the companies are in violation of their license,
which seems possible---that's why I asked for evidence).

 > When have I ever said anything that would lead you to believe that
 > I would have the kinds of answers you require

Aren't you the guy who was there when the Postel Principle was coined?
<wink>  You're right, I should ask Barry, but Barry's not here right
now that I can see, and you usually do have answers, good answers.

 > to these extremely loaded questions you're asking?

What's loaded about the questions?  True, my phrasing assumed that you
probably knew the answers to the questions, but I didn't mean to imply
any obligation for you to know them.

Your post asks for more than the GPL does.  I agree that it would be
good if these companies would participate actively in the community.
But I'm more confused than ever why you cited the GPL in support of
that, since you write:

 > But if you want to argue the finer points of the GPL with someone, my 
 > response is going to be that none of this would be a problem if 
 > they'd just use a BSD-like license instead and then be done with
 > it.

 > As such, I'm not going to be your foil for your GPL holy war, and if 
 > you want that then you would be better off looking elsewhere.

All I want w.r.t. the GPL is that downstream do what it explicitly
demands, since that is the license Mailman uses.

And maybe Mailman should consider asking for source code from these
companies, to improve support for not a few users.

Steve




From franc at ncsi.iisc.ernet.in  Fri Sep  1 15:24:50 2006
From: franc at ncsi.iisc.ernet.in (Francis Jayakanth)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:54:50 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] peculiar problem
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>


We have been using Mailman software for almost 6 years now without much of
a problem. Occasionally, some of our subscribers complain that they do not
receive mails from the mailman list. What I have been doing as a list
moderator in such situations is, deleting the existing id of such a user
and re-create the same id. Many-a-times this solution has worked. However,
it doesn't work for particular user. I have re-created the id for this
user at least 5 times but still the user in question doesn't get mailman
mails.  what do u think could be the problem. we are using 2.1.3, which
quite out-dated as compared to the latest version, 2.1.8 I will be
upgrading the version shortly.

Many thanks,

 - Francis



From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 14:58:41 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 21:58:41 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicit	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Todd Zullinger writes:

 > stephen at xemacs.org wrote:
 > > Has anybody at Mailman asked CPanel, Plesk, or Apple for source and
 > > been refused?  Or one of their customers, and been refused because
 > > they were under NDA?  If we haven't asked, how can we bitch?

 > [...]
 > I've since had the displeasure of working on a cPanel hosted system
 > and there is a source directory for mailman.  If anyone's really
 > curious, I'll diff it against whatever the official source release
 > they're claiming it is.

If you actually do have the right to do so, yes, please.  If nobody
else wants it, feel free to send it to me personally, and I'll stick
it up on a website and post an URL in the FAQ.  It ought to be
available for the benefit of cPanel users who might be able to use it,
even if we're not going to use any of it in Mailman itself.

 > They may be honoring the letter of the license,

And then again, they may not be.  Checking the source will help to
figure that out.

Cheers,
Steve



From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 14:52:32 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:52:32 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [exim] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <20060901115140.GA25158@www.lobefin.net>
References: <200609010022.35450.k.oliver@t-online.de>
	<200609011340.50213.k.oliver@t-online.de>
	<20060901115140.GA25158@www.lobefin.net>
Message-ID: <200609011452.32855.k.oliver@t-online.de>

On Friday 01 September 2006 13:51, Stephen Gran wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 01:40:49PM +0200, Oliver K?nig said:
> > When a subscriber posts to the list /var/log/exim4/mainlog says:
> > 2006-09-01 13:37:27 H=mailout09.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.84]
> > F=<k.oliver at t-online.de> rejected RCPT <news at server.windfinder.com>:
> > relay not permitted
> >
> > Any idea how to allow postings from subscribers? Thanks.
>
> It sounds to me like you don't have +MAILMAN_DOMAINS in any accept
> statements in your rcpt acl.  I would just add it to one of the verify =
> recipient stanzas towards the end of the rcpt acl (given a stock
> configuration).

Hello Stephen,
thanks for for reply. I added +MAILMAN_DOMAINS whereever I thought it might 
help. I am still getting the same error: relay not permitted. Here are 
excerpts from my exim config:
[..]
.ifndef MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS
MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS = DEBCONFlocal_domainsDEBCONF
.endif
domainlist local_domains = MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS : MAILMAN_DOMAINS : 
server.windfinder.com

.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS
MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS = DEBCONFrelay_domainsDEBCONF
.endif
domainlist relay_to_domains = MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS

.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_NETS
MAIN_RELAY_NETS = DEBCONFrelay_netsDEBCONF
.endif
hostlist relay_from_hosts = 127.0.0.1 : ::::1 : MAIN_RELAY_NETS
[..]
# Home dir for your Mailman installation -- aka Mailman's prefix
# directory, see: /usr/share/doc/mailman/README.exim.
MAILMAN_HOME=/var/lib/mailman
MAILMAN_WRAP=MAILMAN_HOME/mail/mailman

# User and group for Mailman, should match your --with-mail-gid
# switch to Mailman's configure script.
MAILMAN_USER=list
MAILMAN_GROUP=daemon

# Domains that your lists are in - colon separated list
# you may wish to add these into local_domains as well
domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS= server.windfinder.com
#
# -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
#
# These values are derived from the ones above and should not need
# editing unless you have munged your mailman installation
#
# The path of the list config file (used as a required file when
# verifying list addresses)
MAILMAN_LISTCHK=MAILMAN_HOME/lists/${lc::$local_part}/config.pck

[..]
begin routers

mailman_router:
  driver = accept
  require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
  local_part_suffix_optional
  local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
                      -confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
                      -owner : -request : -admin
  domains = server.windfinder.com : MAILMAN_DOMAINS
  transport = mailman_transport

[..]
  # Accept if the address is in a local domain, but only if the recipient can
  # be verified. Otherwise deny. The "endpass" line is the border between
  # passing on to the next ACL statement (if tests above it fail) or denying
  # access (if tests below it fail).
  #
  accept
    domains = +local_domains : +MAILMAN_DOMAINS
    endpass
    message = unknown user
    verify = recipient


  # Accept if the address is in a domain for which we are relaying, but again,
  # only if the recipient can be verified.
  #
  # If you want to use the more conservative "unknown user" error
  # message in case of a non-existing local part, you might want to
  # set CHECK_RCPT_GIVE_UNKNOWN_USER. However, this might reveal
  # local information, which is the cause for it not being enabled by
  # default.
  accept
    domains = +relay_to_domains : +MAILMAN_DOMAINS
    endpass
    .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_GIVE_UNKNOWN_USER
    message = ${if eq{$acl_verify_message}{Unrouteable address}{unknown user}
{$acl_verify_message}}
    .else
    message = unrouteable address
    .endif
    verify = recipient

[..]
begin transports

mailman_transport:
  driver = pipe
  command = MAILMAN_WRAP \
            '${if def:local_part_suffix \
                  {${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
                  {post}}' \
            $local_part
  current_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  home_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  user = MAILMAN_USER
  group = MAILMAN_GROUP

Regards,
Oliver


From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 16:00:08 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:00:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

stephen at xemacs.org wrote:
> If you actually do have the right to do so, yes, please.

I do, AFAIK.  Mailman is GPL'd and I have legitimate root access on
that system so I have access to the source code.  AIUI, the GPL
doesn't permit them to restrict what I do with the source that I get.
So it's tough titties for cPanel if they don't like me sharing it with
the rest of the world. :)

The diff is rather large and messy.  The source dir on cpanel seems to
include a build dir with the mailman bin/ utils in it along with some
of the stuff from contrib and cron.  There are also various remnants
of the build process (config.status, Makefiles, etc) strewn about --
perhaps to discourage anyone from using the source easily. :)

In the interests of completeness, I've not excluded any of that from
the diff, so it's rather large (~ 7MB unzipped)!  This source came
from /usr/local/cpanel/src/3rdparty/gpl/mailman-2.1.7 on a cpanel
system.

The diff:

    http://pobox.com/~tmz/mailman-2.1.7-cpanel.diff.bz2 (1.7MB)

Let me know if you want any other info from the cpanel system and I'll
do my best to get it for you.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
The only reason we still have elections in this country is to see if
the pollsters were right.
    -- Ed Rollins

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From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 16:14:37 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:14:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] peculiar problem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609010714t1c5ac7b0q24026401fa6c2dd4@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Francis Jayakanth <franc at ncsi.iisc.ernet.in> wrote:
>
> We have been using Mailman software for almost 6 years now without much of
> a problem. Occasionally, some of our subscribers complain that they do not
> receive mails from the mailman list. What I have been doing as a list

My guess here would be that it's bounce processing. You can check
mailman's 'bounce' logs to see if this is, in fact, the case.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From maltokyo at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 16:21:53 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:21:53 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, I am running mailman / postfix on Ubuntu 6.06 (using apt-get
latest standard versions)

I have everything working correctly, except that when people send
mails to the list, it takes on average one hour to send the mails out
to subscribers!!

The volume is only small now, as we are testing with only three people..

I have searched this list, but can not find an answer for slow
delivery times on systems where mail volume is very low.

If you have a clue what I could be missing, I would LOVE to get your advice.

Thank you
Mal


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 16:24:42 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:24:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello, I am running mailman / postfix on Ubuntu 6.06 (using apt-get
> latest standard versions)
What MTA are you using?

> I have everything working correctly, except that when people send
> mails to the list, it takes on average one hour to send the mails out
> to subscribers!!
Is the slowdown in Mailman, or in your MTA? (Check your MTA's queues
when you send, see if the messages are stuck there. Check Mailman's
qfiles/out folder to see if they're stuck there. Check the 'post' and
'smtp' logs to see how big the actual delay is, for Mailman.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From heinrich at esono.de  Fri Sep  1 16:53:19 2006
From: heinrich at esono.de (Heinrich, Maximilian)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:53:19 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need help: Failure_to_exec_script._WANTED_gid_12,
	_GOT_gid_110
Message-ID: <D54C98F43BF2CC4EB000C3B2DEBC47880112CFED@mapibe12.exchange.xchg>

Hello again,

thanks for your help so far with the strange
unable-to-determine-caller's-group-id-thing. In fact I found out that
the problem was that the either qmail or mailman expected the GID of
user "popuser" to be 110. (it was 30). So I changed that by changing the
GID in /etc/group and /etc/passwd to 110 and by performing this

find / -gid 30 -print -exec chgrp 110 {} \; >gid30to110.log

so far so good. NOW I get at least no "deferral" but "success" delivery
message in my qmail log but with this error behind it:

delivery 890: success:
Failure_to_exec_script._WANTED_gid_12,_GOT_gid_110./Failed_to_start_/usr
/lib/mailman/mail/mailman./did_0+0+1/

:'-( (gid 12 == mail)

Since using a combination of Suse9.3, PLESK and a (obviously?) special
distribution of mailmnan that comes with this combination I'm not able
to compile this with those funky parameters like -with-mail-gid=12 or
something. 

What can I do? Thanks in advance - Regards Maxi


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 16:52:46 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:52:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] peculiar problem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>
Message-ID: <p06240511c11df94e08e0@[10.0.1.210]>

At 6:54 PM +0530 2006-09-01, Francis Jayakanth wrote:

>                                      I have re-created the id for this
>  user at least 5 times but still the user in question doesn't get mailman
>  mails.  what do u think could be the problem. we are using 2.1.3, which
>  quite out-dated as compared to the latest version, 2.1.8 I will be
>  upgrading the version shortly.

What's in the Mailman logs?  What's in the MTA logs?  Can you get the 
MTA logs from the other side, and then compare that to your MTA logs?

We've got some instructions in the FAQ that should help you track 
down e-mail delivery problems.  Have you searched the FAQ for 
"troubleshooting"?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From maltokyo at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 17:01:36 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:01:36 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Patrick,
Thank you very much for your reply.

> What MTA are you using?
Postfix latest version.

Checking the logs that you suggested, I found the cause for this
delay, however, do not know how to get around it...

When I am sending mails to the list from any other smtp server than my
isp's (from webmail etc), the delivery is instant!
However, when I send a mail from my isp's smtp server (which is the
same smtp that postfix is using to send all mails that are posted to
my list), then delivery takes about 1 hour!!

Does anyone know why that could be?  Is it confusing my isp's smtp server???

Thank you for your help.
Mal



On 01/09/06, Patrick Bogen <pdbogen at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/1/06, Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello, I am running mailman / postfix on Ubuntu 6.06 (using apt-get
> > latest standard versions)
> What MTA are you using?
>
> > I have everything working correctly, except that when people send
> > mails to the list, it takes on average one hour to send the mails out
> > to subscribers!!
> Is the slowdown in Mailman, or in your MTA? (Check your MTA's queues
> when you send, see if the messages are stuck there. Check Mailman's
> qfiles/out folder to see if they're stuck there. Check the 'post' and
> 'smtp' logs to see how big the actual delay is, for Mailman.
>
> --
> - Patrick Bogen
>


From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Fri Sep  1 17:04:11 2006
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:04:11 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>

* Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com>:

> When I am sending mails to the list from any other smtp server than my
> isp's (from webmail etc), the delivery is instant!
> However, when I send a mail from my isp's smtp server (which is the
> same smtp that postfix is using to send all mails that are posted to
> my list), then delivery takes about 1 hour!!

You ISPs mailserver could have a huge queue, thus delivery may take
VERY long.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt (i.A. des IT-Zentrums)         Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de
Charite - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin            Tel.  +49 (0)30-450 570-155
Gemeinsame Einrichtung von FU- und HU-Berlin    Fax.  +49 (0)30-450 570-962
IT-Zentrum Standort CBF                 send no mail to spamtrap at charite.de


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 17:03:43 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:03:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17656.10215.46422.826213@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17656.10215.46422.826213@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <p06240512c11dfb6f8890@[10.0.1.210]>

At 9:30 PM +0900 2006-09-01, <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

>  Your post asks for more than the GPL does.  I agree that it would be
>  good if these companies would participate actively in the community.
>  But I'm more confused than ever why you cited the GPL in support of
>  that, since you write:

I'm not really citing the GPL, at least not per se.  I know what the 
GPL actually requires, but as far as I'm concerned any changes that 
are made without being approved by Barry or filtered back into the 
community would qualify as "unapproved".

>  All I want w.r.t. the GPL is that downstream do what it explicitly
>  demands, since that is the license Mailman uses.

If they were willing to do that, I'd be reasonably happy.

>  And maybe Mailman should consider asking for source code from these
>  companies, to improve support for not a few users.

That's a good idea, but that's another issue for Barry.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From maltokyo at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 17:07:58 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:07:58 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Ralf,

> You ISPs mailserver could have a huge queue, thus delivery may take
> VERY long.

thanks for the hint, but other mails are getting in with no delay at all..
Anyone else tried to send mails from same smtp server that your MTA uses?



On 02/09/06, Ralf Hildebrandt <Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> wrote:
> * Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com>:
>
> > When I am sending mails to the list from any other smtp server than my
> > isp's (from webmail etc), the delivery is instant!
> > However, when I send a mail from my isp's smtp server (which is the
> > same smtp that postfix is using to send all mails that are posted to
> > my list), then delivery takes about 1 hour!!
>
> You ISPs mailserver could have a huge queue, thus delivery may take
> VERY long.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 17:09:53 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:09:53 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
 but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
Message-ID: <p06240514c11dfd05e7a1@[10.0.1.210]>

At 5:04 PM +0200 2006-09-01, Ralf Hildebrandt quoted maltokyo at gmail.com:

>>  When I am sending mails to the list from any other smtp server than my
>>  isp's (from webmail etc), the delivery is instant!
>>  However, when I send a mail from my isp's smtp server (which is the
>>  same smtp that postfix is using to send all mails that are posted to
>>  my list), then delivery takes about 1 hour!!
>
>  You ISPs mailserver could have a huge queue, thus delivery may take
>  VERY long.

I would hope that the situation is that simple.

The other problem is that the ISP might be incompetent, and the 
queues are relatively small but very poorly managed, and the result 
is that the messages are delayed a long time -- but for no good 
reason.


Either way, it sounds like you need to talk to your ISP about this 
problem, because they're the only ones that are going to be able to 
help you.  The only other alternative is to find a different provider.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 17:11:17 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:11:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <200609011422.33607.k.oliver@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <PC17602006090108111709211beb062a@msapiro>

Oliver K?nig wrote:

>Just added it:
>domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS= server.windfinder.com : news.server.windfinder.com
>
>After exim4 restart the mail delivery failed completely (even for non mailman
>mail):
<snip>
>2006-09-01 10:39:13 1GJ4YH-0004nB-ND unknown named domain
>list "+MAILMAN_domains"
<snip>
>I changed this according tohttp://www.exim.org/howto/mailman21.html to:
>[..]
>begin routers
>
>mailman_router:
>   driver = accept
>   domains = +MAILMAN_domains
>   require_files = MAILMAN_LISTCHK
>   local_part_suffix_optional
>   local_part_suffix = -admin     : \
>-bounces   : -bounces+* : \
>                       -confirm   : -confirm+* : \
>-join      : -leave     : \
>-owner    : -request   : \
>-subscribe : -unsubscribe
>   transport = mailman_transport

You seem to have case issues here, i.e., MAILMAN_DOMAINS vs.
MAILMAN_domains. The documentation shows this all lower case. I don't
know if that is significant or not, but it may be.

Also, you don't indicate whether or not you have server.windfinder.com
and news.server.windfinder.com in local_domains. If not, I think this
is the cause of your relaying problem.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 17:12:35 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:12:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
	<aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609010812l56bece90y2ed418516050c211@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com> wrote:
> thanks for the hint, but other mails are getting in with no delay at all..
> Anyone else tried to send mails from same smtp server that your MTA uses?

If your ISP allows it, you might try configuring your postfix to NOT
use the ISP as a smart relay, and just attempt to deliver mail
locally.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 17:15:02 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:15:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
 but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
	<aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240515c11dfdfd21ce@[10.0.1.210]>

At 12:07 AM +0900 2006-09-02, Mal quoted Ralf Hildebrandt:

>>  You ISPs mailserver could have a huge queue, thus delivery may take
>>  VERY long.
>
>  thanks for the hint, but other mails are getting in with no delay at all.

That's the joy of e-mail -- messages you sent an hour ago might still 
be in the queue, while messages that you send now may go through 
immediately, even if they are to the exact same destination.

There are a lot of factors involved, and the only people who can 
really help you answer the question of what is wrong and how it might 
be fixed are the people who administer that system -- your ISP.

>  Anyone else tried to send mails from same smtp server that your MTA uses?

If you're using a webmail system from your ISP, you don't have any 
control over the MTA that is used by the webmail system.


Everything boils down to the fact that you need to talk to your ISP 
and see what's going on and why, and what might be done about it.

We might be able to speculate and suggest potential alternatives 
based on the speculations, but that's about as far as anyone here can 
go.

You need real answers, and the only person (or people) who can 
possibly provide those answers is/are at your ISP.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 17:28:27 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:28:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicit	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <17656.20891.795544.237969@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Todd Zullinger writes:

 > I do, AFAIK.  Mailman is GPL'd and I have legitimate root access on
 > that system so I have access to the source code.  AIUI, the GPL
 > doesn't permit them to restrict what I do with the source that I
 > get.

You have to actually receive a distribution to have GPL rights.
Merely having access to somebody else's copy is not enough.  The
system owner can indeed tell you what uses you are and are not
allowed, just as a cashier has legitimate access to the contents of
the cash register, but isn't allowed to just share out the change to
anybody who comes along.



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 17:23:12 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:23:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] peculiar problem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010823120093566fed09@msapiro>

Francis Jayakanth wrote:
>
>What I have been doing as a list
>moderator in such situations is, deleting the existing id of such a user
>and re-create the same id. Many-a-times this solution has worked. 


I don't know why this would make a difference unless delivery was
disabled for that user and deleting and recreating had the effect of
enabling delivery.


>However,
>it doesn't work for particular user. I have re-created the id for this
>user at least 5 times but still the user in question doesn't get mailman
>mails.  what do u think could be the problem.


The user or her/his ISP could be filtering or blocking the mail from
your mailman installation based on any number of factors. Can you
successfully send non-Mailman mail to this user from the same domain
as Mailman sends from?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From maltokyo at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 17:26:01 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:26:01 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <p06240515c11dfdfd21ce@10.0.1.210>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
	<aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240515c11dfdfd21ce@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609010826y45698dbxac7104c5815c19dd@mail.gmail.com>

OK!  Thank you, Ill ask the isp.  Thanks for the suggestions at the
start, it really helped me pinpoint the problem, even though it doesnt
seem to be mailman!


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Sep  1 17:29:39 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 08:29:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] GPL Issues (was Re: query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!))
In-Reply-To: <44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
	<44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>

Bretton Vine did speak thusly:

>I don't think there is any obligation for someone who changes the source of
>a GPL product to give the changes back to the original developers, but there
>might be a case of 'good manners' at play in that it is polite to do so. I'm
>sure developers welcome input even if they choose not to include it in the
>primary code distribution.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Disclaimer: I am not a licensed attorney and this is not to be 
construed as legal advice.

Have you actually read the GPL?

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt

There is such an obligation explicitly defined in it within section 3 
that states that source code of any derivative work MUST be provided 
either as part of the actual distribution of the work or upon request 
to ANY third party that requests it. Section 2 also plays heavily 
into this situation.

Thus by either passively ignoring or actively refusing requests for 
source, Apple, Plesk and CPanel are in direct violation of the GPL.

And while we are on the subject of the GPL, sections 11 and 12 
basically state that there is absolutely no warranty for the fitness 
or suitability of a GPL program and that your use of a program under 
the license is entirely at your own risk.



Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 17:35:01 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:35:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17656.20891.795544.237969@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.20891.795544.237969@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20060901153501.GK4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

stephen at xemacs.org wrote:
> You have to actually receive a distribution to have GPL rights.
> Merely having access to somebody else's copy is not enough.

The system owner most certainly allows me to access and use the source
that he was provided as part of the cPanel installation.  If you have
reason to believe that there are other factors which would prohibit
the system owner from sharing that source code, feel free to point
those out.  But of course, I've already posted the diff and don't plan
to retract it. ;)

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a
virtue.  Fleas are interested in dogs.
    -- P.J. O'Rourke

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From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Sep  1 17:40:19 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 08:40:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
 but very slow delivery of  posted mails
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901083647.0125c508@crimson-dragon.com>

Mal did speak thusly:
>Dear Patrick,
>Thank you very much for your reply.
>
> > What MTA are you using?
>Postfix latest version.
>
>Checking the logs that you suggested, I found the cause for this
>delay, however, do not know how to get around it...
>
>When I am sending mails to the list from any other smtp server than my
>isp's (from webmail etc), the delivery is instant!
>However, when I send a mail from my isp's smtp server (which is the
>same smtp that postfix is using to send all mails that are posted to
>my list), then delivery takes about 1 hour!!
>
>Does anyone know why that could be?  Is it confusing my isp's smtp server???
>
>Thank you for your help.
>Mal
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Sounds like they have implemented greylisting as an anti-spam measure 
and have set the retry period to an hour.

Do you see anything in your MTA logs that looks something like this?

reject=451 4.7.1 Greylisting in action, please come back in 00:10:00


If so, you need to get with their sysadmin and have them whitelist 
your mailman server.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 17:42:17 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:42:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicitdestination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240512c11dfb6f8890@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <PC17602006090108421702810f4ab56a@msapiro>

Brad Knowles wrote:

>At 9:30 PM +0900 2006-09-01, <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
>
>>  And maybe Mailman should consider asking for source code from these
>>  companies, to improve support for not a few users.
>
>That's a good idea, but that's another issue for Barry.


FWIW, I only this week discovered that Apple has Mailman source code on
it's web site.

I found the following quote somewhat ironic -

  Apple uses software created by the Open Source community, such as the
  HTML rendering engine for Safari, and returns its enhancements to the
  community.

(<http://www.apple.com/opensource/>)

Anyway, if you go to <http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/>
and follow any of the "Mac OS X 10.3  Darwin 7.0" or later "source"
links you will find links to Mailman source. I don't know whether this
is Apple modified source or just our source. I haven't had time to
investigate this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From R.Bannocks at nhm.ac.uk  Fri Sep  1 17:27:31 2006
From: R.Bannocks at nhm.ac.uk (Robert Bannocks)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:27:31 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting up mailman
Message-ID: <82A8FC2BA38D7F46998355F69C861BAFBFDA87@FRANK.nhm.ac.uk>

Hi,  
 
A few simple questions.
 
I want to run mail man as part of the main name space, i.e.
listnames at nhm.ac.uk, however the machine it runs on will be called
someother.nhm.ac.uk, and 
the alias I want for the web front end will be lists.nhm.ac.uk.  Am I
correct in doing this by setting the following variables in
~mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py
 
and that this will acheive the following
 
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'nhm.ac.uk'
DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.nhm.ac.uk'
DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'
VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()

 
1.  When users go to http://lists.nhm.ac.uk, they will be able to view
the lists
2.  mail from the lists will come from listname at nhm.ac.uk
 
Thanks 
 
RB
 
 
 


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 17:51:36 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:51:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicitdestination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <44F7FF1F.1080008@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010851360468c2517f58@msapiro>

Bretton Vine wrote:
>
>Just as an example, some list-owners have pending administrative request
>queues numbering in the hundreds already. No amount of prodding or pushing
>or assisting helps them just to complete a small and easy daily task.
>Feedback is "my prior list didn't bother me with stuff" or "Oh, I used to
>just ignore that stuff anyway". Horse --> water situation.


FYI, in case you missed it, beginning with 2.1.6 there is a
max_days_to_hold list setting and the corresponding
DEFAULT_MAX_DAYS_TO_HOLD mm_cfg.py setting.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 17:52:17 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:52:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20608292119l4adeb132y77ad1f534e5c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34a783b20608292119l4adeb132y77ad1f534e5c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609010852o1c3380e2m9bda285eeccb452@mail.gmail.com>

Answering my own question, on the off-chance somebody else now or in
the future cares...

On 8/29/06, David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:

> What I think I want to do is leave the new/current mailing list, and
> its archives, alone, and put up the old archives in my web space.  (A
> more aggressive approach would be to try to attach my old archives to
> the beginning of the new/current archive, so everything would be in
> one place.  That would require a lot of reliance on Dreamhost tech
> support, since I don't have access to those files/directories, and
> they might not even be willing to do it.)
>
> So, what executables and configuration settings are key to this?  I
> need to run "arch", it looks like, and have a mailing list configured
> that will define where it puts the resulting HTML files.  Maybe also
> stuff to make the page templates match the rest of the website (I did
> that for the ezmlm-cgi version).   And I only have to do this once
> (just to convert the old archives, static, no more messages).

I've made significant progress on this.  I built a private copy of
mailman, to run under my username (never to actually be connected to
incoming email; just so that I can create and configure lists and run
arch on them).

The configure command I used was:

./configure --with-username=ddb --with-groupname=ddb --prefix=/home/ddb/mailman

I can create a list with bin/newlist, and I can then run bin/arch and
import mbox list archives, and it builds web pages that serve up just
fine.

I believe I need to do more to configure the list, so that for example
the list name appears somewhere on the archive pages.  I'm not yet
sure if I should do this via command line tools, or if I need to hook
it up so the list admin web pages work on this private copy of
mailman.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 17:55:16 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:55:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature request
Message-ID: <34a783b20609010855l11d12489w5838f3b2da8091a1@mail.gmail.com>

It'd sure be nice if there were a CSS file associated with the web
archives that mailman generates.  Perhaps, ideally, a different one
for the individual message files and for the various index files.
Perhaps there could be a default one that was put in by default (it
could be pretty much null), and then each list could be configured to
use a specific other one if the list owner wanted.  This gives a LOT
of flexibility to spruce up (and make conform to site style) the
appearance of the archives, for very little (it seems to me) work by
the Mailman developers.

The other thing is that the various sections of the messages would
need to be tagged in appropriate ways to make the style sheets more
able to access individual bits.

How do people go about fitting the archives into their site style now?  Frames?
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 17:59:22 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:59:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicitdestination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010859220765c516ae73@msapiro>

Todd Zullinger wrote:
>
>The source dir on cpanel seems to
>include a build dir with the mailman bin/ utils in it along with some
>of the stuff from contrib and cron.

The build directory is created by configure and contains 'configured'
versions of the scripts.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 18:07:46 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 01:07:46 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicit	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <20060901153501.GK4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.20891.795544.237969@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901153501.GK4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <17656.23250.67763.76038@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Todd Zullinger writes:

 > If you have reason to believe that there are other factors which
 > would prohibit the system owner from sharing that source code,
 > feel free to point those out.

There are none to worry about, except that he/she arbitrarily decides
he/she doesn't want to.

I'm just concerned that sharing might not be the intention of the
system owner.



From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 18:11:13 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:11:13 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17656.23250.67763.76038@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.20891.795544.237969@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901153501.GK4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.23250.67763.76038@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20060901161113.GM4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

stephen at xemacs.org wrote:
> I'm just concerned that sharing might not be the intention of the
> system owner.

No problem.  Sharing this source code is perfectly fine with the
system owner.  I know him well enough to know that implicitly.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Drugs may lead to nowhere, but at least it's the scenic route.

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V51V6S6VQQPmprg2nPWiP9do6Kdrq+JTKEetri4ZoyxnXlinZP0C5EUZ3OWNWl38
yT7sojobP0PppWZ3OYU1cYzaYPwQXAweRh3M6fIFnwxqPTAPl9y/o1pT0BC8uhjq
3CDDupqjlruhRrOtTn7uZNlVwVVTOjLmXoF0lauCZLOVrXjeDwQ=
=NhZz
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From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 18:19:40 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:19:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature request
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609010855l11d12489w5838f3b2da8091a1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34a783b20609010855l11d12489w5838f3b2da8091a1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609010919v28785836j8a4f0d36c50bff80@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:
> It'd sure be nice if there were a CSS file associated with the web
> archives that mailman generates.  Perhaps, ideally, a different one
> for the individual message files and for the various index files.
> Perhaps there could be a default one that was put in by default (it
> could be pretty much null), and then each list could be configured to
> use a specific other one if the list owner wanted.  This gives a LOT
> of flexibility to spruce up (and make conform to site style) the
> appearance of the archives, for very little (it seems to me) work by
> the Mailman developers.

It's actually a fair but of work, because all of the static HTML has
to be modified to make use of CSS classes, etc., and they'd need to
remove all of the formatting and put it into a CSS file.

That said, fill out and/or check for an RFE at <http://sf.net/projects/mailman>

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 18:25:54 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:25:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting up mailman
In-Reply-To: <82A8FC2BA38D7F46998355F69C861BAFBFDA87@FRANK.nhm.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010925540515781d76b9@msapiro>

Robert Bannocks wrote:
> 
>I want to run mail man as part of the main name space, i.e.
>listnames at nhm.ac.uk, however the machine it runs on will be called
>someother.nhm.ac.uk, and 
>the alias I want for the web front end will be lists.nhm.ac.uk.  Am I
>correct in doing this by setting the following variables in
>~mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py
> 
>and that this will acheive the following
> 
>DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'nhm.ac.uk'
>DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.nhm.ac.uk'
>DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'
>VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()

As long as this is followed by

add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)


>1.  When users go to http://lists.nhm.ac.uk, they will be able to view
>the lists


This will require appropriate configuration of your webserver.
Normally, you would go to a URL like http://lists.nhm.ac.uk/mailman/.
If you want http://lists.nhm.ac.uk to go to the listinfo overview, but
you want to access various Mailman CGIs as
http://lists.nhm.ac.uk/mailman/admindb/listname, etc. then the above
is OK and for Apache as an example, you would put something like the
following in the lists.nhm.ac.uk section of httpd.conf

ScriptAlias /mailman/       /path/to/mailman/cgi-bin/
Alias   /pipermail/     /path/to/mailman/archives/public/
RedirectMatch ^[/]+$   http://lists.nhm.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo

If you don't want to use 'mailman' in the URLs at all, e.g., go to URLs
like http://lists.nhm.ac.uk/admindb/listname, you need something like

ScriptAlias /       /path/to/mailman/cgi-bin/
Alias   /pipermail/     /path/to/mailman/archives/public/
RedirectMatch ^[/]+$   http://lists.nhm.ac.uk/listinfo

And you need 

DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/'

in mm_cfg.py.


>2.  mail from the lists will come from listname at nhm.ac.uk

Yes.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 18:30:46 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:30:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature request
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609010855l11d12489w5838f3b2da8091a1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010930460765f63eb80b@msapiro>

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>It'd sure be nice if there were a CSS file associated with the web
>archives that mailman generates.

See <http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Summer+of+Code>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From bretton at hivemind.net  Fri Sep  1 17:47:39 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:47:39 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] GPL Issues (was Re: query re "message has
 implicit destination"(devils advocate!))
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
	<44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <44F8561B.3040803@hivemind.net>

Dragon said the following on 2006/09/01 05:29 PM:
> Have you actually read the GPL?
> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt

yes plus variations ;-)

> There is such an obligation explicitly defined in it within section 3
> that states that source code of any derivative work MUST be provided
> either as part of the actual distribution of the work or upon request to
> ANY third party that requests it. 

Yes, but that's not what I said. I said there was no obligation to send
changes back to original developers, but that it was polite to do so.
Obviously, if the original developers ask for the changes then yes, but if
they've failed to do so there is no obligation.
(The feedback appears to indicate that they have asked however)

In fact I can take GPL code, modify it and use it internally without either
the original developers or any third party knowing I've done so. I'm under
zero obligation to inform anyone of my actions or changes. If however I
start distributing the changed code it must be done so under the same
licence, and upon request I must make the source available.

There is no obligation for me to indicate what I changed from an original
code base (code or docs) only an obligation for me to provide the source
*on request*.

Manners imply shipping the compiled product with source, but it's not
necessary or necessarily a rule followed by everyone.

> Thus by either passively ignoring or actively refusing requests for
> source, Apple, Plesk and CPanel are in direct violation of the GPL.

Ok, then any person is welcome to contact those organisations and request
the source. If they fail to provide it you can take the matter up with the
relevant people at the FSF.

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-violation.html

(well technically only copyright holders can do so)

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"A new study shows that licking the sweat off a frog can cure depression.
The down side is, the minute you stop licking, the frog gets depressed
again." - Jay Leno


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 18:42:34 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:42:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609010852o1c3380e2m9bda285eeccb452@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
>I believe I need to do more to configure the list, so that for example
>the list name appears somewhere on the archive pages.  I'm not yet
>sure if I should do this via command line tools, or if I need to hook
>it up so the list admin web pages work on this private copy of
>mailman.


The list's real_name attribute is what will appear in the archive web
pages. This is the listname given to bin/newlist with possible
capitalization differences. You can modify the capitalization if
desired with bin/config_list before running bin/arch. Once you've run
bin/arch, it's built in to the web pages (you can run bin/arch --wipe
to rebuild them)

You don't need to run the web interface for anything assuming the
archive is 'public'. Also, since the archive is static, you don't need
the list (or Mailman) at all after the archive is created.

You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 18:49:15 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:49:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
 implicitdestination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006090108421702810f4ab56a@msapiro>
References: <PC17602006090108421702810f4ab56a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <p06240500c11e14815a91@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:42 AM -0700 2006-09-01, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>  Anyway, if you go to <http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/>
>  and follow any of the "Mac OS X 10.3  Darwin 7.0" or later "source"
>  links you will find links to Mailman source. I don't know whether this
>  is Apple modified source or just our source. I haven't had time to
>  investigate this.

Looking at 
<http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.3/mailman-105/mailman/NEWS>, 
it appears that they started with Mailman 2.1.2, but I am not yet 
seeing any Apple-modified stuff.

Looking at 
<http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.7.ppc/mailman-117/mailman/NEWS>, 
it looks like they got up to version 2.1.5, but again I'm still 
trying to figure out what parts may have been modified by Apple.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 18:53:06 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:53:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need help:
	Failure_to_exec_script._WANTED_gid_12, _GOT_gid_110
In-Reply-To: <D54C98F43BF2CC4EB000C3B2DEBC47880112CFED@mapibe12.exchange.xchg>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010953060593b8e1b0b7@msapiro>

Heinrich, Maximilian wrote:
>
>so far so good. NOW I get at least no "deferral" but "success" delivery
>message in my qmail log but with this error behind it:
>
>delivery 890: success:
>Failure_to_exec_script._WANTED_gid_12,_GOT_gid_110./Failed_to_start_/usr
>/lib/mailman/mail/mailman./did_0+0+1/
>
>:'-( (gid 12 == mail)
>
>Since using a combination of Suse9.3, PLESK and a (obviously?) special
>distribution of mailmnan that comes with this combination I'm not able
>to compile this with those funky parameters like -with-mail-gid=12 or
>something. 
>
>What can I do?


Contact the provider of your package (Suse, PLESK, ?). Some packagers
arrange for the expected group or gid to be read from some file. This
may be the case here.

Or, perhaps you can arrange for qmail to execute the pipe as group
'mail' instead of group 'popuser'.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From tomnaugh at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 18:55:35 2006
From: tomnaugh at gmail.com (Tom Kavanaugh)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:55:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View Subscriber list format
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006083116221403123de67b86@msapiro>
References: <98a90c220608311556r292cda74p9e8d96540b2cc8fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC17602006083116221403123de67b86@msapiro>
Message-ID: <98a90c220609010955q3ccf77e5te6ae75b60d60ff5c@mail.gmail.com>

I use a template to create new lists.
Si, I had already updated the template to reflect this change in new lists
being created.
obscure_addresses = 0

Thanks for the tip and the script.

Mailman rocks!
Tom

On 8/31/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
>
> Tom Kavanaugh wrote:
> >
> >Is there a way to incorporate this change across all exisitng mail lists?
> >I looked at commands in mailman/bin but did not find any command that
> could
> >do this for me. Or, am I missing something?
>
>
> First, you want to put
>
> DEFAULT_OBSCURE_ADDRESSES = No
>
> in mm_cfg.py so new lists will be created with obscure_address = No.
>
> Then you have two choices for existing lists, bin/withlist and
> bin/config_list. config_list is easier to describe so, put the
> following 1 line in a file
>
> obscure_addresses = 0
>
> and run a shell script like
>
> #!/bin/sh
> for list in `bin/list_lists --bare`
> do bin/config_list -i file $list
> done
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 19:20:50 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 02:20:50 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] GPL Issues (was Re: query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!))
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
	<44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <17656.27634.115460.76886@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Dragon writes:

 > Bretton Vine did speak thusly:

 > >I don't think there is any obligation for someone who changes the source of
 > >a GPL product to give the changes back to the original developers, [...]
 > ---------------- End original message. ---------------------
 > 
 > There is such an obligation explicitly defined in it within section 3 
 > that states that source code of any derivative work MUST be provided 
 > either as part of the actual distribution of the work or upon request 
 > to ANY third party that requests it. Section 2 also plays heavily 
 > into this situation.

Bretton's right.  Satisfying *any* of 3a, 3b, or 3c means you are in
full compliance with section 3.  If you distribute source as part of
every distribution you make, you are under no legal obligation to give
source to any third party.  That includes upstream.

BTW, I was quite surprised at the way you construe 3b; I've always
assumed "any third party" was a reference to recipients of non-source
distributions under 3c.  But IANAL and I'm often enough wrong---you're
probably right.

 > Thus by either passively ignoring or actively refusing requests for 
 > source, Apple, Plesk and CPanel are in direct violation of the GPL.

cPanel seems not to be.  Definitely not at the installation Todd
Zullinger has access to.  I would not be surprised if both Apple and
Plesk are similarly in full technical compliance.  Especially Apple,
since Steve Jobs has not had very good luck with trying to violate the
GPL in the past. :-)

Steve


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Sep  1 19:16:29 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 10:16:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] GPL Issues (was Re: query re "message has
 implicit destination"(devils advocate!))
In-Reply-To: <44F8561B.3040803@hivemind.net>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
	<44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F8561B.3040803@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901100909.08c19600@crimson-dragon.com>

Bretton Vine sent the message below at 08:47 AM 9/1/2006:
>Dragon said the following on 2006/09/01 05:29 PM:
> > Have you actually read the GPL?
> > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt
>
>yes plus variations ;-)
>
> > There is such an obligation explicitly defined in it within section 3
> > that states that source code of any derivative work MUST be provided
> > either as part of the actual distribution of the work or upon request to
> > ANY third party that requests it.
>
>Yes, but that's not what I said. I said there was no obligation to send
>changes back to original developers, but that it was polite to do so.
>Obviously, if the original developers ask for the changes then yes, but if
>they've failed to do so there is no obligation.
>(The feedback appears to indicate that they have asked however)

No, it was not exactly what you said but it could be interpreted in such a way.

>In fact I can take GPL code, modify it and use it internally without either
>the original developers or any third party knowing I've done so. I'm under
>zero obligation to inform anyone of my actions or changes.

Yes, you can. But that is also not applicable to this situation 
because Plesk and Cpanel and Apple have all taken the mailman code, 
applied changes and redistributed them.

>If however I start distributing the changed code it must be done so 
>under the same
>licence, and upon request I must make the source available.

And that is the crux of the issue because as I understand it, such 
requests have been made and rebuffed or ignored.

>There is no obligation for me to indicate what I changed from an original
>code base (code or docs) only an obligation for me to provide the source
>*on request*.
>
>Manners imply shipping the compiled product with source, but it's not
>necessary or necessarily a rule followed by everyone.

Nor is it required under the GPL. The GPL only requires that it be 
made available and does not specify the exact mechanism of how this 
must be done.

> > Thus by either passively ignoring or actively refusing requests for
> > source, Apple, Plesk and CPanel are in direct violation of the GPL.

If the link Mark posted earlier with Apple's source code does indeed 
have their version (which looks likely due to a different version 
number on it), then I retract my statement about Apple. By providing 
the source on the web, they have adhered to both the letter and the 
spirit of the GPL.

>Ok, then any person is welcome to contact those organisations and request
>the source. If they fail to provide it you can take the matter up with the
>relevant people at the FSF.
>
>http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-violation.html
>
>(well technically only copyright holders can do so)

Very true.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 19:17:58 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:17:58 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicitdestination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240500c11e14815a91@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <PC17602006090108421702810f4ab56a@msapiro>
	<p06240500c11e14815a91@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060901171758.GN4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Brad Knowles wrote:
> Looking at 
> <http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.7.ppc/mailman-117/mailman/NEWS>, 
> it looks like they got up to version 2.1.5, but again I'm still 
> trying to figure out what parts may have been modified by Apple.

I grabbed the source from:

    http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/tarballs/other/mailman-117.tar.gz

which is linked from (among other places):

    http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.7.x86/

The mailman sources are in the tarball in the mailman dir.  The diff
to that is here:

    http://pobox.com/~tmz/mailman-apple.diff.bz2

There are other Apple specific things in the tarball, Makefile, init
script, etc, which are worth checking out to see how they package
Mailman and how that may affect those coming here for some help with
those Apple packages.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels so good.

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From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 19:23:45 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:23:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
>information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.


Or you can remove them from the templates before running bin/arch.

templates/en/archtoc.html
templates/en/archtocnombox.html
templates/en/archidxhead.html
templates/en/archidxfoot.html

assuming English.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 20:55:27 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:55:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
References: <34a783b20609010852o1c3380e2m9bda285eeccb452@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609011155q27776d77s7a4bbcac10456d8e@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> >
> >I believe I need to do more to configure the list, so that for example
> >the list name appears somewhere on the archive pages.  I'm not yet
> >sure if I should do this via command line tools, or if I need to hook
> >it up so the list admin web pages work on this private copy of
> >mailman.
>
>
> The list's real_name attribute is what will appear in the archive web
> pages. This is the listname given to bin/newlist with possible
> capitalization differences. You can modify the capitalization if
> desired with bin/config_list before running bin/arch. Once you've run
> bin/arch, it's built in to the web pages (you can run bin/arch --wipe
> to rebuild them)

Ah, config_list is what I'm looking for I'm sure.  Thanks!

I've looked at the output of the tests, of course, so I know the
archives are all static; that's one reason I'm taking this approach,
it's a do-once-and-back-up scenario, it won't need any future effort
once it's done.

I'm hoping arch doesn't choke on the 43MB mbox file.

> You don't need to run the web interface for anything assuming the
> archive is 'public'. Also, since the archive is static, you don't need
> the list (or Mailman) at all after the archive is created.

Since I'm running everything as user ddb and user ddb owns everything,
even private archives should be accessible.  Doesn't matter, for this
purpose I'm setting them up as public (I'm not even doing this on the
destination system, they'll be tared up and moved when I get them
right).

> You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
> information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.

Or change the template, as someone suggested.

For the couple of extinct lists I should do something like that (or
point it to the page explaining what the list *was* and that it's
extinct).

For the big list, it's still active, so I'm pointing to it's live
page.  I'm just getting old archives together to put online.  I'm not
merging them into the new archives because of peculiarities in
Dreamhosts support of mailman -- while I control evertyhing through
the mailman web pages, I don't actually have filesystem visibility
into any of it, not even readonly.  So the old archives will be
separate from the new archives.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 20:57:13 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:57:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature request
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609010930460765f63eb80b@msapiro>
References: <34a783b20609010855l11d12489w5838f3b2da8091a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1760200609010930460765f63eb80b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609011157i2876cc20i5b8b65f6ad31bc1d@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> >It'd sure be nice if there were a CSS file associated with the web
> >archives that mailman generates.
>
> See <http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Summer+of+Code>.

That's interesting.  Although if I understand correctly, he's going
with mod_python, which like mod_perl and the rest won't be available
in a shared hosting environment.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From ken at sunward.org  Fri Sep  1 21:42:37 2006
From: ken at sunward.org (Ken Winter)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:42:37 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
Message-ID: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>

Using the Mailman web admin interface, can I / how can I:

 

1.	Delete an entire mailing list? 
2.	Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
different name but the same configuration? 
3.	Rename a list? 

 

I looked for these how-tos in the available documentation, but I can't find
them.

 

~ Thanks in advance for your help

~ Ken Winter

 

PS: I sent this query two weeks ago, and have heard no response, so I'm
sending it again.  Am I barking up the wrong tree?

 



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 21:50:02 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:50:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
	<PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609011250n4c7a8339h5c6fbb549ed674e2@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> Mark Sapiro wrote:
> >
> >You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
> >information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.
>
>
> Or you can remove them from the templates before running bin/arch.
>
> templates/en/archtoc.html
> templates/en/archtocnombox.html
> templates/en/archidxhead.html
> templates/en/archidxfoot.html
>
> assuming English.

Ah, and the individual article template really doesn't contain any
identification of the list.  Well, now I know where to fix that.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 21:51:12 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:51:12 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
	<PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609011251i6b299f5dge0b37fcaa62b24d7@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> Mark Sapiro wrote:
> >
> >You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
> >information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.
>
>
> Or you can remove them from the templates before running bin/arch.
>
> templates/en/archtoc.html
> templates/en/archtocnombox.html
> templates/en/archidxhead.html
> templates/en/archidxfoot.html
>
> assuming English.

Hey, looking at those templates plus article.html, I can put in the
CSS stuff I want right there; the code doesn't even have to be
touched.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From steele at agora-net.com  Fri Sep  1 22:02:08 2006
From: steele at agora-net.com (Ryan Steele)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 16:02:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
In-Reply-To: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>
References: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>
Message-ID: <44F891C0.40408@agora-net.com>

First off, I'm not sure if any of those are possible via the web 
interface.  I don't think that's really what the interface was designed 
for.  Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Renaming a list is a royal pain in the ass.  There's some documentation 
on the Mailman website about it, though it warns that there's no really 
safe way to do this.  And it seems to me that 2) and 3) are going to do 
the same thing.  However, for #2 you might take a look at 
bin/config_list.  As far as deleting a list, it's easy to do using the 
bin/rmlist.  Generally, if you're doing administration for a bunch of 
lists, I've found it much easier to work with the command line utilities 
that ship with Mailman.  Hope this helps a little bit.

Ryan

Ken Winter wrote:
> Using the Mailman web admin interface, can I / how can I:
>
>  
>
> 1.	Delete an entire mailing list? 
> 2.	Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
> different name but the same configuration? 
> 3.	Rename a list? 
>
>  
>
> I looked for these how-tos in the available documentation, but I can't find
> them.
>
>  
>
> ~ Thanks in advance for your help
>
> ~ Ken Winter
>
>  
>
> PS: I sent this query two weeks ago, and have heard no response, so I'm
> sending it again.  Am I barking up the wrong tree?
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/steele%40agora-net.com
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>   


-- 
Ryan Steele                         
Systems Administrator               steele at agora-net.com
AgoraNet, Inc.                      (302) 224-2475
314 E. Main Street, Suite 1         (302) 224-2552 (fax)
Newark, DE 19711                    http://www.agora-net.com



From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 22:18:44 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:18:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
In-Reply-To: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>
References: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>
Message-ID: <20060901201844.GO4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ken Winter wrote:
> Using the Mailman web admin interface, can I / how can I:
> 
> 1.	Delete an entire mailing list? 

By default you can't do this from the web interface.  If the site
admin puts OWNERS_CAN_DELETE_THEIR_OWN_LISTS = yes into mm_cfg.py,
then list owners can delete their own lists.

> 2.	Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
> different name but the same configuration? 

I don't think this is possible with the web interface.  The command
line provides a config_list tool that can be used to do this.  There
are also some scripts to drive the web interface that may be able to
do this, but I don't recall the location of those at the moment
(somewhere on starship.python.org).

> 3.	Rename a list? 

Also not possible from the web interface AFAIK.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
So I don't get hurt?!  Thats the best you can come up with you
dull-witted termagant!
    -- Stewie Griffin, on why he needs a car seat

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From betsy.schwartz at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 22:32:41 2006
From: betsy.schwartz at gmail.com (Elizabeth Schwartz)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:32:41 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to create a list with an approved list of
	posters? (not answered by FAQ?)
In-Reply-To: <p06240504c11bbecd735e@192.168.1.102>
References: <a923f15e0608301112n5401b9b2h22ed06929e570ddc@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240504c11bbecd735e@192.168.1.102>
Message-ID: <a923f15e0609011332p40a85afct425a3921b4c5f4d5@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks but I am still not getting this.

On 8/30/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
>
> At 2:12 PM -0400 2006-08-30, Elizabeth Schwartz wrote:
>
> >  I have been charged with creating two lists, each with a limited set of
> >  people who are allowed to **post** to the list.
> >  One list is an umbrella list ; the other is not.  The people who are
> allowed
> >  to post are a subset of members of the list.
>
> That would be required for the umbrella list situation, unless you
> want to apply the patch where you can use the @list notation to call
> in the list of subscribers from another list and then put that in the
> set of approved senders.


I never want the whole list to be approved, I just want a few people to be
approved.

>  I see how to allow them to post if they are *not* members of the list ,
> but
> >  not if they *are*.
>
> Just turn off their moderation bits, but leave everyone else moderated.


The people who are in the sub-lists don't have moderation bits, though. If I
make them unmodearted members of the umbrella list, and they are also
members of the sub-lists, will they get everything twice?

(I will make some dummy lists to play with.  This is all fraught with peril
because much FUD exists about email at high levels. Many phone calls
accompany use of these umbrella lists. To my knowledge, our mailman
installations have NEVER lost or mis-delivered a message. But it's hard to
prove that they never will)


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 23:05:56 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:05:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to create a list with an approved list
	ofposters? (not answered by FAQ?)
In-Reply-To: <a923f15e0609011332p40a85afct425a3921b4c5f4d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006090114055601560bcc6554@msapiro>

Elizabeth Schwartz wrote:
>
>The people who are in the sub-lists don't have moderation bits, though. If I
>make them unmodearted members of the umbrella list, and they are also
>members of the sub-lists, will they get everything twice?


Yes, unless you set their delivery on the umbrella list to disabled.

So if I understand, you have an umbrella list and some sub-lists. Your
authorized posters are unmoderated on the sub-lists so they can post
to the sub-list directly without their posts being held.

To enable them to post to the umbrella list, you have several options.

1) make the posters unmoderated members of the umbrella list with
delivery disabled. This will work, but there will be administrivia
issues. E.g., if jdoe at example.com is a member of the umbrella, things
like the password reminder for jdoe will be sent to
jdoe-owner at example.com which of course will bounce. You can turn off
password reminders too and that may cover it.

2) make the umbrella list 'open'. I.e., set Privacy options...->Sender
filters->generic_nonmember_action to accept. Then poster (who must be
unmoderated on all the sub-lists) can post and the post is accepted by
the umbrella and all the sub-lists. A non-member or non-poster post
will be accepted by the umbrella, but held by the sub-lists.

3) add the posters to accept_these_nonmembers of the umbrella list.

4) make a 'posters' list which is not a member of the umbrella, but
which has as members all the authorized posters. Apply the patch at
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1220144&group_id=103&atid=300103>
and add '@posters' to the umbrella's accept_these_nonmembers.

There are probably other ways I haven't thought of (and gotcha's I
haven't thought of too).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 23:08:06 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =