From amk at amk.ca Fri Jul 11 22:58:50 2003 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Fri Jul 11 21:56:55 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page Message-ID: <20030712015849.GA29869@nyman.amk.ca> Here's a revision of the top page of python.org: http://www.amk.ca/python.org.html . Comparing it with the current contents of www.python.org will be helpful. My goal is to get it all on-screen at once, but that goal is still distant. Changes: * The sidebar links have been rearranged. The existing headings of "Special Topics", "Popular Links", "Exits", "Commercial Exits", "Python Help" are rather vague. My revision reorganizes the links under "Python versions", "Documentation", and "Development" and drops redundant links. The sidebar is still too darned long, though; can we drop some of the Exits and most of the Commercial Exits. * The eight links in the top bar aren't repeated in the body any more. Other changes I'd like to make: * Drop the OSI logo; show it on the "About Python" page. * Shrink the big logo. Other suggestions for changes? --amk From altis at semi-retired.com Sat Jul 12 10:40:20 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Sat Jul 12 12:34:09 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page In-Reply-To: <20030712015849.GA29869@nyman.amk.ca> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: A.M. Kuchling > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 6:59 PM > To: pydotorg-redesign@python.org > Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page > > > Here's a revision of the top page of python.org: > http://www.amk.ca/python.org.html . Comparing it with the current > contents of www.python.org will be helpful. My goal is to get it all > on-screen at once, but that goal is still distant. Changes: > > * The sidebar links have been rearranged. The existing headings of > "Special Topics", "Popular Links", "Exits", "Commercial Exits", > "Python Help" are rather vague. My revision reorganizes the links > under "Python versions", "Documentation", and "Development" and drops > redundant links. The sidebar is still too darned long, though; can we > drop some of the Exits and most of the Commercial Exits. Much cleaner, however I think I would rather see the Documentation as the top section. > * The eight links in the top bar aren't repeated in the body any more. > > Other changes I'd like to make: > > * Drop the OSI logo; show it on the "About Python" page. +1 However, since that is "below the fold" it has little impact on the primary use of the home page unless the goal is to make sure the home page doesn't need to be scrolled to see everything. > * Shrink the big logo. Shrink or drop it entirely, it adds little to no branding or information value. > Other suggestions for changes? > > --amk There have been a number of other page mockups to consider for ideas in the redesign. The first two simply changed to a gray color scheme. Steve Holden made another page that I can't find offhand, so I've asked him to reply with the URL. Another person that I can't remember did another mockup, they should reply here if they are on the list. http://www.python.org/index-gray.html http://www.python.org/Jobs-gray.html I also made a mockup of for the "search on the home page" thread. The main change to the top nav was to add an actual search box and button to the top nav; an actual search on the home page is critical to improving usability of the site. I also removed the Developers link since it is covered in the left-hand nav and is ambiguous (anyone using Python is a developer) and I consolidated the SIGs and Community links. http://pythonology.org/pipermail/marketing-python/2003-March/004173.html Since the redesign discussion is basically being restarted from April, I suggest people go back and look at the URLs in the posts I made when we got started. Most of the other messages on the list have to do with making the maintenance of python.org more efficient by using roundup and such. http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-redesign/2003-April/thread.html Specifically... other web sites for reference http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-redesign/2003-April/000001.html redesign issues from marketing-python mailing list http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-redesign/2003-April/000004.html pytdotorg-redesign notes from PyCon Open Space session http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-redesign/2003-April/000005.html ka From sholden at holdenweb.com Sat Jul 12 14:17:59 2003 From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Sat Jul 12 13:23:00 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page In-Reply-To: <20030712015849.GA29869@nyman.amk.ca> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org > [mailto:pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org]On Behalf Of > A.M. Kuchling > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 9:59 PM > To: pydotorg-redesign@python.org > Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page > > > Here's a revision of the top page of python.org: > http://www.amk.ca/python.org.html . Comparing it with the current > contents of www.python.org will be helpful. My goal is to get it all > on-screen at once, but that goal is still distant. Changes: > > * The sidebar links have been rearranged. The existing headings of > "Special Topics", "Popular Links", "Exits", "Commercial Exits", > "Python Help" are rather vague. My revision reorganizes the links > under "Python versions", "Documentation", and "Development" > and drops > redundant links. The sidebar is still too darned long, > though; can we > drop some of the Exits and most of the Commercial Exits. > Why not a left-=hand and a right-hand sidebar. I'm currently looking at a redesing of my own site, don't know whether it might inspire any thoughts for pydotorg: http://www.insigniodesign.com/holdenweb/scaled/ > * The eight links in the top bar aren't repeated in the body any more. > I would suggest that for the front page we drop the eight top links and keep them in the sidebar instead, or at least put them under the header. > Other changes I'd like to make: > > * Drop the OSI logo; show it on the "About Python" page. > Alternatively, incorporate it proudly into the page header fopr all pages! > * Shrink the big logo. > Yup! Or at least stop it from using up a huge amount of real-estate by making it a part of the header design rather than leaving it on a line all by itself. > Other suggestions for changes? > I suggested http://www.holdenweb.com/Python/python.org.htm a long time ago to little effect, and clearly XS4ALL could be ackowledged in less space. We *definitely* need a highly visible statement right on the front page to say something along the lines of "Python is an open source agile programming language ideal for many different types of tasks, nowadays often installed with the operating system by computer vendors". Eventually my site will be driven by relational data, and I'd like to see pydotorg adopt the same idea: manipulating data is much easier than editing page content, and would allow us to broaden webmaster responsibilities. Tim O'Reilly would approve :-) regards -- Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/ Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/ From amk at amk.ca Sat Jul 12 17:31:34 2003 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Sat Jul 12 16:33:58 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 01:17 PM, Steve Holden wrote: >Why not a left-=hand and a right-hand sidebar. I'm currently looking at >a redesing of my own site, don't know whether it might inspire any >thoughts for pydotorg: Oh, *very* nice! The font choices and colour scheme make it look very professional and trust-worthy, to my eyes. We could change the colour scheme to match the all-blue palette we're used to for python.org (or maybe everyone's sick of blue?). --amk From sholden at holdenweb.com Sat Jul 12 17:33:22 2003 From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Sat Jul 12 16:38:35 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org > [mailto:pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org]On Behalf Of > A.M. Kuchling > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 4:32 PM > To: pydotorg-redesign@python.org > Subject: Re: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page > > > On Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 01:17 PM, Steve Holden wrote: > >Why not a left-=hand and a right-hand sidebar. I'm > currently looking at > >a redesing of my own site, don't know whether it might inspire any > >thoughts for pydotorg: > > Oh, *very* nice! The font choices and colour scheme make it > look very > professional and trust-worthy, to my eyes. We could change > the colour > scheme to match the all-blue palette we're used to for python.org (or > maybe everyone's sick of blue?). > I should point out I can take no credit for the design, which a professional designer is doing for me in return for the last seven years' assistance with his Unix education plus two SPARCstation LCs I donated to his hardware collection. We could probably adapt this fairly readily to Python, though: Dave has specifically designed it to be fairly readily parameterisable. Also good to know it's going to work for Holden Web: that's exactly the impression I want to convey. Thanks for the input. regards -- Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/ Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/ > From richard at mechanicalcat.net Sun Jul 13 09:05:20 2003 From: richard at mechanicalcat.net (Richard Jones) Date: Sat Jul 12 18:05:56 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200307130805.24488.richard@mechanicalcat.net> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 03:17 am, Steve Holden wrote: > Why not a left-=hand and a right-hand sidebar. I'm currently looking at > a redesing of my own site, don't know whether it might inspire any > thoughts for pydotorg: > > http://www.insigniodesign.com/holdenweb/scaled/ My problems with navigation on both sides are that: - The space available for content is quite reduced. This might not be such a big deal on the front page, but it certainly will be on latter pages. - The user has another set of places to look for navigation. Currently there's three places, and with another sidebar there's four. Perhaps we could use the current spaces better? Oh, and on my browser at least, that page doesn't fit in my default window size (around 800 pixels wide). Horizontal scrolling is needed to get to the right-hand sidebar :) Richard -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: signature Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-redesign/attachments/20030713/0651ecf1/attachment.bin From skip at pobox.com Sat Jul 12 18:34:40 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Sat Jul 12 18:34:49 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page In-Reply-To: References: <20030712015849.GA29869@nyman.amk.ca> Message-ID: <16144.36096.559468.983723@montanaro.dyndns.org> Steve> Why not a left-=hand and a right-hand sidebar. I'm currently Steve> looking at a redesing of my own site, don't know whether it might Steve> inspire any thoughts for pydotorg: Steve> http://www.insigniodesign.com/holdenweb/scaled/ That looks nice. The wide graphic at the top probably needs to be a bit more accommodating of narrowing, but that's something that probably wouldn't be in the python.org site. Skip From skip at pobox.com Sat Jul 12 18:38:57 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Sat Jul 12 18:39:28 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16144.36353.411798.409876@montanaro.dyndns.org> amk> We could change the colour scheme to match the all-blue palette amk> we're used to for python.org (or maybe everyone's sick of blue?). If you want to retain the little "python" graphics in the upper left hand corner you'll need to contact Just van Rossum to see how hard it would be for him to generate a new set with a different background color. I believe he created all those images. There are over 60 in http://www.python.org/pics/ which get randomly rotated through that position. Look for "PyBannerNNN.gif". Skip From altis at semi-retired.com Sat Jul 12 18:59:36 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Sat Jul 12 20:53:27 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page In-Reply-To: <16144.36353.411798.409876@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: > From: Skip Montanaro > > amk> We could change the colour scheme to match the all-blue palette > amk> we're used to for python.org (or maybe everyone's sick of blue?). > > If you want to retain the little "python" graphics in the upper left hand > corner you'll need to contact Just van Rossum to see how hard it would be > for him to generate a new set with a different background color. > I believe > he created all those images. There are over 60 in > > http://www.python.org/pics/ > > which get randomly rotated through that position. Look for > "PyBannerNNN.gif". > > Skip To make it simpler to see them all I wrote a little script to create a single PNG with all the images. http://pythoncard.sourceforge.net/images/just_python.png ka ps. Just ignore the gray bar at the top it is an artifact of the screen capture. From pobrien at orbtech.com Sun Jul 13 17:28:01 2003 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Sun Jul 13 12:28:02 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "A.M. Kuchling" writes: > On Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 01:17 PM, Steve Holden wrote: > >Why not a left-=hand and a right-hand sidebar. I'm currently looking at > >a redesing of my own site, don't know whether it might inspire any > >thoughts for pydotorg: > > Oh, *very* nice! The font choices and colour scheme make it look very > professional and trust-worthy, to my eyes. We could change the colour > scheme to match the all-blue palette we're used to for python.org (or > maybe everyone's sick of blue?). I agree that it is a *very* nice looking site. As for the color, blue is a very safe choice for a technology "company". So whether we are sick of blue or not, I would love to see something that looked like Steve's new site but using a blue color scheme. -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien ----------------------------------------------- "Your source for Python programming expertise." ----------------------------------------------- From pobrien at orbtech.com Sun Jul 13 17:29:19 2003 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Sun Jul 13 12:29:20 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page In-Reply-To: <16144.36353.411798.409876@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <16144.36353.411798.409876@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Skip Montanaro writes: > amk> We could change the colour scheme to match the all-blue palette > amk> we're used to for python.org (or maybe everyone's sick of blue?). > > If you want to retain the little "python" graphics in the upper left hand > corner you'll need to contact Just van Rossum to see how hard it would be > for him to generate a new set with a different background color. I believe > he created all those images. There are over 60 in > > http://www.python.org/pics/ > > which get randomly rotated through that position. Look for > "PyBannerNNN.gif". I'd rather we had one logo for the home page. -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien ----------------------------------------------- "Your source for Python programming expertise." ----------------------------------------------- From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Jul 14 13:13:36 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon Jul 14 12:13:41 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page In-Reply-To: References: <20030712015849.GA29869@nyman.amk.ca> Message-ID: <20030714161336.GA6117@panix.com> On Sat, Jul 12, 2003, Steve Holden wrote: > > Why not a left-=hand and a right-hand sidebar. I'm currently looking at > a redesing of my own site, don't know whether it might inspire any > thoughts for pydotorg: > > http://www.insigniodesign.com/holdenweb/scaled/ Mainly 'cause it doesn't look so great in Lynx. ;-) (The second sidebar is at the bottom of the page -- which is okay if it's really a secondary sidebar.) -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Not everything in life has a clue in front of it...." --JMS From altis at semi-retired.com Mon Jul 14 11:15:26 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Mon Jul 14 13:09:22 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page In-Reply-To: <20030714161336.GA6117@panix.com> Message-ID: > From: Aahz > > On Sat, Jul 12, 2003, Steve Holden wrote: > > > > Why not a left-=hand and a right-hand sidebar. I'm currently looking at > > a redesing of my own site, don't know whether it might inspire any > > thoughts for pydotorg: > > > > http://www.insigniodesign.com/holdenweb/scaled/ > > Mainly 'cause it doesn't look so great in Lynx. ;-) (The second > sidebar is at the bottom of the page -- which is okay if it's really a > secondary sidebar.) I know you winked, but seriously, I would rather that we use CSS and/or serve the home page based on client to support browsers like Lynx, rather than design for the lowest common denominator. The home page is a special-case, so if we do end up using a three column layout on the home page, that doesn't have to be used on the rest of the site. That said, if a three column layout is used, then the minimum width of the browser window needs to be taken into consideration. The php.net layout seems to adjust better than the .NET and Holden layouts. http://www.microsoft.com/net/ http://www.php.net/ ka From altis at semi-retired.com Mon Jul 14 11:44:08 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Mon Jul 14 13:38:04 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] irc for redesign? Message-ID: Would anyone be interested in having a few irc sessions to try and work through the home page issues? It would be nice to get a few mockups up and then do some interactive tweaks while crunching through our priorities for what must be on the home page and what we want to emphasize based on expected users. The sessions can be captured and archived for the mailing list and the mockups would of course be online so other people on the list could make comments. ka From amk at amk.ca Mon Jul 14 16:30:33 2003 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Mon Jul 14 15:31:23 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] irc for redesign? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F1304D9.3000304@amk.ca> Kevin Altis wrote: >Would anyone be interested in having a few irc sessions to try and work >through the home page issues? Sure; any time after 6PM EDT would be fine for me. What IRC server and channel name? --amk From altis at semi-retired.com Mon Jul 14 15:53:30 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Mon Jul 14 17:47:26 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] irc for redesign? In-Reply-To: <3F1304D9.3000304@amk.ca> Message-ID: > From: A.M. Kuchling > > Kevin Altis wrote: > >Would anyone be interested in having a few irc sessions to try and work > >through the home page issues? > > Sure; any time after 6PM EDT would be fine for me. What IRC server and > channel name? I would like to get more people than just the two of us, so a later this week would be good. server: irc.freenode.net channel: pydotorg-redesign ka From walter at livinglogic.de Tue Jul 15 23:04:38 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Tue Jul 15 16:05:15 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign Message-ID: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> Hello list! For the new www.python.org we should not only reorganize the navigation, but do a graphic redesign of the site as well. I've done a quick mockup in Photoshop of how a new www.python.org could look like: http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org.gif Also, the navigation should be made hierarchical and we should add bread crumb navigation that always shows the user where s/he is. Also on the front page the quote could be moved to a teaser panel on the right side of the content area. Bye, Walter D?rwald From sholden at holdenweb.com Wed Jul 16 15:24:51 2003 From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Wed Jul 16 14:41:27 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] irc for redesign? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org > [mailto:pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org]On Behalf Of Kevin Altis > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 1:44 PM > To: pydotorg-redesign@python.org > Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] irc for redesign? > > > Would anyone be interested in having a few irc sessions to > try and work > through the home page issues? It would be nice to get a few > mockups up and > then do some interactive tweaks while crunching through our > priorities for > what must be on the home page and what we want to emphasize based on > expected users. The sessions can be captured and archived for > the mailing > list and the mockups would of course be online so other > people on the list > could make comments. > +1. When? Where? -- Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/ Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/ From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Jul 16 20:43:25 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed Jul 16 19:43:29 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> On Tue, Jul 15, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > > For the new www.python.org we should not only reorganize the > navigation, but do a graphic redesign of the site as well. > > I've done a quick mockup in Photoshop of how a new www.python.org > could look like: > > http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org.gif > > Also, the navigation should be made hierarchical and we should add > bread crumb navigation that always shows the user where s/he is. Not bad, overall. I've got a few concerns about our ability to generate that look with static HTML, but I think they're resolvable. Note that I do believe that we need to stick with static HTML for our mirrors. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From walter at livinglogic.de Thu Jul 17 16:31:00 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Thu Jul 17 09:31:40 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> Message-ID: <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> Aahz wrote: > On Tue, Jul 15, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > >>For the new www.python.org we should not only reorganize the >>navigation, but do a graphic redesign of the site as well. >> >>I've done a quick mockup in Photoshop of how a new www.python.org >>could look like: >> >>http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org.gif >> >>Also, the navigation should be made hierarchical and we should add >>bread crumb navigation that always shows the user where s/he is. > > Not bad, overall. I've got a few concerns about our ability to generate > that look with static HTML, but I think they're resolvable. Note that I > do believe that we need to stick with static HTML for our mirrors. Converting this look to HTML isn't difficult, as long as we can use CSS. (But of course the web site must be usable with Netscape 4, it just doesn't have to look identical IMHO). I'll try to do an HTML version over the weekend. I don't know which tool is currently used for generating the pages, and whether we would be willing to switch tools, if that would simplify generating masses of pages and being able quickly change the look for all pages. Bye, Walter D?rwald From aahz at pythoncraft.com Thu Jul 17 10:36:16 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu Jul 17 09:36:21 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> On Thu, Jul 17, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > Aahz wrote: >>On Tue, Jul 15, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: >>> >>>I've done a quick mockup in Photoshop of how a new www.python.org >>>could look like: >>> >>>http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org.gif >> >>Not bad, overall. I've got a few concerns about our ability to generate >>that look with static HTML, but I think they're resolvable. Note that I >>do believe that we need to stick with static HTML for our mirrors. > > Converting this look to HTML isn't difficult, as long as we can use > CSS. (But of course the web site must be usable with Netscape 4, > it just doesn't have to look identical IMHO). > > I'll try to do an HTML version over the weekend. It's not just Netscape. I use Lynx as my browser. ;-) But yes, for less-functional browsers, it simply needs to be useful rather than pretty. > I don't know which tool is currently used for generating the pages, > and whether we would be willing to switch tools, if that would > simplify generating masses of pages and being able quickly change the > look for all pages. We're willing to switch in theory. In practice, unless we can amass a group of volunteers for a formatting sprint, there are too many pages to convert without a compelling reason. There's also the issue that we need to do a lot of content cleanup in addition to the graphic redesign. We've been sort-of assuming that we'll switch to Zope3 once that gets released. What we currently use is a combination of auto-generated navigation and hand-written HTML. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From skip at pobox.com Thu Jul 17 09:52:50 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Thu Jul 17 09:53:04 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> Message-ID: <16150.43570.169710.980460@montanaro.dyndns.org> >> I don't know which tool is currently used for generating the pages, >> and whether we would be willing to switch tools, if that would >> simplify generating masses of pages and being able quickly change the >> look for all pages. aahz> We're willing to switch in theory. In practice, unless we can aahz> amass a group of volunteers for a formatting sprint, there are too aahz> many pages to convert without a compelling reason. I'm not sure what there is to convert. The .ht pages are just content. Surely that wouldn't have to change immediately. The template page would have to change, but that would be a one-place, one-time sort of thing. aahz> What we currently use is a combination of auto-generated aahz> navigation and hand-written HTML. Yes, but most of that HTML is simply section headers, tables to display data (as opposed to structure the pages) and inline markup. It's the naviagtion stuff that will change and should be relatively easy to do. Skip From fdrake at acm.org Thu Jul 17 11:47:25 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Thu Jul 17 10:48:02 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> Message-ID: <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> Walter D?rwald writes: > Converting this look to HTML isn't difficult, as long as we can use > CSS. (But of course the web site must be usable with Netscape 4, > it just doesn't have to look identical IMHO). > > I'll try to do an HTML version over the weekend. Cool! > I don't know which tool is currently used for generating the pages, > and whether we would be willing to switch tools, if that would simplify > generating masses of pages and being able quickly change the look > for all pages. We use a little hack called "HT2HTML", which exists primarily to support python.org. (That's certainly why it was created.) As long as "the look" is something like lots of boilerplate and navigation surrounding a one or two bits of content (the "body" and "continuation" sections), it shouldn't be hard to support the new look. A new generator class would be needed, but that's it, and isn't all that difficult. Information on HT2HTML can be found at: http://ht2html.sourceforge.net/ In particular, you probably want to look at this page: http://ht2html.sourceforge.net/components.html The HTML in the "content" areas is hand-written, and the navigation material is generated from additional information stored in various places using HT2HTML. Aahz writes: > We're willing to switch in theory. In practice, unless we can amass a > group of volunteers for a formatting sprint, there are too many pages to > convert without a compelling reason. There's also the issue that we I think it should be easy enough to write a script to categorize all the HTML pages on python.org into "generated" and "non-generated" categories, and run ht2html for the generated ones (just run "make; make install" for each affected directory) to handle the generated pages, and provide a list of HTML that needs to be checked manually. > need to do a lot of content cleanup in addition to the graphic redesign. I think this is a completely separate issue, and can be done independently. Cleanup can happen at any time. > We've been sort-of assuming that we'll switch to Zope3 once that gets > released. Oh. I didn't know that. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From skip at pobox.com Thu Jul 17 11:12:22 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Thu Jul 17 11:12:37 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <16150.48342.462502.334451@montanaro.dyndns.org> >> We've been sort-of assuming that we'll switch to Zope3 once that gets >> released. Fred> Oh. I didn't know that. Me either. No slight intended to the Zopistas on the list, but isn't Zope kind of overkill for what is essentially a small website made up mostly of static pages? Skip From fdrake at acm.org Thu Jul 17 12:21:09 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Thu Jul 17 11:21:46 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <16150.48342.462502.334451@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <16150.48342.462502.334451@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <16150.48869.773605.419126@grendel.zope.com> Skip Montanaro writes: > Me either. No slight intended to the Zopistas on the list, but isn't Zope None taken. ;-) > kind of overkill for what is essentially a small website made up mostly of > static pages? Zope is good for dynamic content, and we've generally avoided that for python.org so we can simplify operation of the server, keep it lightweight, and allow it to be efficiently mirrored. There are certainly parts of the site that benefit from dynamism (such as the wiki), but we already have applications in place, and no one seems to have time to change them anyway. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From altis at semi-retired.com Thu Jul 17 10:39:02 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Thu Jul 17 12:32:53 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] irc for redesign? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: Steve Holden > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org > > [mailto:pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org]On Behalf Of Kevin Altis > > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 1:44 PM > > To: pydotorg-redesign@python.org > > Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] irc for redesign? > > > > > > Would anyone be interested in having a few irc sessions to > > try and work > > through the home page issues? It would be nice to get a few > > mockups up and > > then do some interactive tweaks while crunching through our > > priorities for > > what must be on the home page and what we want to emphasize based on > > expected users. The sessions can be captured and archived for > > the mailing > > list and the mockups would of course be online so other > > people on the list > > could make comments. > > > +1. When? Where? How about Monday at 6 pm EST, irc.freenode.net, channel pydotorg-redesign. I don't want to do something on Friday night and delaying until Monday should give anyone that wants to attend time to work on additional home page mockups and issues. Hopefully, it won't just be amk, myself, and Steve :) ka From aahz at pythoncraft.com Thu Jul 17 14:06:11 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu Jul 17 13:06:15 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <16150.48869.773605.419126@grendel.zope.com> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <16150.48342.462502.334451@montanaro.dyndns.org> <16150.48869.773605.419126@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <20030717170610.GA16733@panix.com> On Thu, Jul 17, 2003, Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: > > Zope is good for dynamic content, and we've generally avoided that for > python.org so we can simplify operation of the server, keep it > lightweight, and allow it to be efficiently mirrored. > > There are certainly parts of the site that benefit from dynamism (such > as the wiki), but we already have applications in place, and no one > seems to have time to change them anyway. My impression is that we'd like to increase the dynamism of the site. Currently, the only way to handle things is by either using wide-open Wikis or giving someone full access to python.org CVS. It would be good if we could section things off more, particularly for things like job openings, events, and user groups. There's also the issue that the Wikis aren't integrated into the site design. Obviously, we'll need to figure some way of copying the dynamic content to static pages for mirroring, but I really want to cut the ongoing load on the webmasters to something closer to zero. It'll be a big job, but hopefully we'll only have to do it once. There have been volunteers in the past for moving python.org to Zope2, but I really don't want to do that based on my understanding of the capabilities of Zope2. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From matt at pollenation.net Thu Jul 17 19:45:57 2003 From: matt at pollenation.net (Matt Goodall) Date: Thu Jul 17 13:38:29 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] web site redesign - late entry Message-ID: <3F16E0D5.9060208@pollenation.net> Hi, I've been on the list for a few weeks but have not had enough time to join in. However, the looming IRC discussion deadline made me mention the redesign to my colleague, Tim, and we knocked up the following: http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python_pollen.gif See what you think, comments welcome. If there's interest in using this design then one or both of us will join in the IRC discussion on Monday. Hope you like it. Cheers, Matt -- Matt Goodall, Pollenation Internet Ltd w: http://www.pollenationinternet.com e: matt@pollenation.net From aahz at pythoncraft.com Thu Jul 17 15:47:41 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu Jul 17 14:47:44 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page In-Reply-To: <20030712015849.GA29869@nyman.amk.ca> References: <20030712015849.GA29869@nyman.amk.ca> Message-ID: <20030717184741.GA21641@panix.com> On Fri, Jul 11, 2003, A.M. Kuchling wrote: > > Here's a revision of the top page of python.org: > http://www.amk.ca/python.org.html . Comparing it with the current > contents of www.python.org will be helpful. My goal is to get it all > on-screen at once, but that goal is still distant. Changes: > > * The sidebar links have been rearranged. The existing headings of > "Special Topics", "Popular Links", "Exits", "Commercial Exits", > "Python Help" are rather vague. My revision reorganizes the links > under "Python versions", "Documentation", and "Development" and drops > redundant links. The sidebar is still too darned long, though; can we > drop some of the Exits and most of the Commercial Exits. I'd move all the commercial exits to a separate page. This is all starting to look interesting. Could someone take charge of making a web page that links to all the different proposals we're seeing? -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From fdrake at acm.org Thu Jul 17 16:00:37 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Thu Jul 17 15:01:16 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] irc for redesign? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16150.62037.285579.415025@grendel.zope.com> Kevin Altis writes: > How about Monday at 6 pm EST, irc.freenode.net, channel pydotorg-redesign. > > I don't want to do something on Friday night and delaying until Monday > should give anyone that wants to attend time to work on additional home page > mockups and issues. Hopefully, it won't just be amk, myself, and Steve :) I should be able to do this if you send a reminder to the list half an hour beforehand. Not sure how helpful I'll be, though. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From altis at semi-retired.com Thu Jul 17 13:15:02 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Thu Jul 17 15:08:46 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page In-Reply-To: <20030717184741.GA21641@panix.com> Message-ID: I assert my individuality via a top post ;-) http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PydotorgRedesign I'm adding links right now. ka > -----Original Message----- > From: pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org > [mailto:pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org]On Behalf Of Aahz > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:48 AM > To: pydotorg-redesign@python.org > Subject: Re: [Pydotorg-redesign] Tweaking the top page > > > On Fri, Jul 11, 2003, A.M. Kuchling wrote: > > > > Here's a revision of the top page of python.org: > > http://www.amk.ca/python.org.html . Comparing it with the current > > contents of www.python.org will be helpful. My goal is to get it all > > on-screen at once, but that goal is still distant. Changes: > > > > * The sidebar links have been rearranged. The existing headings of > > "Special Topics", "Popular Links", "Exits", "Commercial Exits", > > "Python Help" are rather vague. My revision reorganizes the links > > under "Python versions", "Documentation", and "Development" and drops > > redundant links. The sidebar is still too darned long, > though; can we > > drop some of the Exits and most of the Commercial Exits. > > I'd move all the commercial exits to a separate page. > > This is all starting to look interesting. Could someone take charge of > making a web page that links to all the different proposals we're seeing? > -- > Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From fdrake at acm.org Thu Jul 17 16:36:57 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Thu Jul 17 15:37:35 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] web site redesign - late entry In-Reply-To: <3F16E0D5.9060208@pollenation.net> References: <3F16E0D5.9060208@pollenation.net> Message-ID: <16150.64217.753057.725965@grendel.zope.com> Matt Goodall writes: > I've been on the list for a few weeks but have not had enough time to > join in. However, the looming IRC discussion deadline made me mention > the redesign to my colleague, Tim, and we knocked up the following: Pretty cool. I like the fact that there isn't an image background for the header. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From walter at livinglogic.de Fri Jul 18 00:56:24 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Thu Jul 17 17:57:00 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: > Walter D?rwald writes: > > Converting this look to HTML isn't difficult, as long as we can use > > CSS. (But of course the web site must be usable with Netscape 4, > > it just doesn't have to look identical IMHO). > > > > I'll try to do an HTML version over the weekend. > > Cool! Done and available at: http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org/ Note that Netscape 4 doesn't understand the media attribute for the stylesheet, so Netscape 4 doesn't pick up the stylesheet at all. I've tested the site with Mozilla 1.4, IE 6, Opera 7 under Windows and links and lynx under Linux. Navigation hierarchy is defined only once and is generated automatically. Furthermore tags are provided to ease navigation with text browsers. As this was done with XIST (http://www.livinglogic.de/Python/xist/) it should be possible to do a HTML version of Matt Goodall's suggestion (http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python_pollen.gif) pretty easily. The source for this demo is available at http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org/site.tar.gz > [...] > We use a little hack called "HT2HTML", which exists primarily to > support python.org. (That's certainly why it was created.) > > As long as "the look" is something like lots of boilerplate and > navigation surrounding a one or two bits of content (the "body" and > "continuation" sections), it shouldn't be hard to support the new > look. A new generator class would be needed, but that's it, and isn't > all that difficult. > > Information on HT2HTML can be found at: > > http://ht2html.sourceforge.net/ Sounds like it's rather simple to convert the source for www.python.org to XIST, if this is an option we want to consider. > [...] > > > need to do a lot of content cleanup in addition to the graphic redesign. > > I think this is a completely separate issue, and can be done > independently. Cleanup can happen at any time. > > > We've been sort-of assuming that we'll switch to Zope3 once that gets > > released. > > Oh. I didn't know that. Combining Zope and XIST would be an interesting exercise. ;) Source files would be XML instead of HTML. XIST generates all static page content and simply passes through the dynamic content stuff (as long as this can be put into XML, which Zope new templating stuff can AFAICT) Bye, Walter D?rwald From skip at pobox.com Thu Jul 17 18:13:38 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Thu Jul 17 18:13:47 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <16151.8082.220054.346165@montanaro.dyndns.org> Walter> I've tested the site with Mozilla 1.4, IE 6, Opera 7 under Walter> Windows and links and lynx under Linux. Looks okay using Safari on Mac OS X. Skip From aahz at pythoncraft.com Thu Jul 17 20:22:03 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu Jul 17 19:22:06 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> On Thu, Jul 17, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > > Done and available at: > http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org/ Very nice! Looks simple and clean in Lynx. > As this was done with XIST (http://www.livinglogic.de/Python/xist/) > it should be possible to do a HTML version of Matt Goodall's suggestion > (http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python_pollen.gif) > pretty easily. > > The source for this demo is available at > http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org/site.tar.gz That doesn't look too bad, either. All we'd need to fit in with the current system is a way of organizing by directory. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From walter at livinglogic.de Fri Jul 18 13:17:00 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 06:17:36 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> Message-ID: <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> Aahz wrote: > On Thu, Jul 17, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > >>Done and available at: >>http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org/ > > Very nice! Looks simple and clean in Lynx. > >>As this was done with XIST (http://www.livinglogic.de/Python/xist/) >>it should be possible to do a HTML version of Matt Goodall's suggestion >>(http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python_pollen.gif) >>pretty easily. >> >>The source for this demo is available at >>http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org/site.tar.gz > > That doesn't look too bad, either. All we'd need to fit in with the > current system is a way of organizing by directory. All pages have to be put into a hierarchical sitemap, but this doesn't have to do anything with directory structure. BTW, is the source for www.python.org available somewhere? Bye, Walter D?rwald From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jul 18 08:58:04 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri Jul 18 07:58:08 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > Aahz wrote: >>On Thu, Jul 17, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: >>> >>>The source for this demo is available at >>>http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org/site.tar.gz >> >>That doesn't look too bad, either. All we'd need to fit in with the >>current system is a way of organizing by directory. > > All pages have to be put into a hierarchical sitemap, but this doesn't > have to do anything with directory structure. You're technically correct, but because we've currently got the site in CVS, moving things around is a strongly non-preferred option. And given that we've already got the site structure in directories, it seems to me that whatever navigation tool we're using ought to be automated to use that structure. > BTW, is the source for www.python.org available somewhere? What do you mean by "source"? The .ht template files should be available off www.python.org. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From walter at livinglogic.de Fri Jul 18 15:20:01 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 08:20:38 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> Message-ID: <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> Aahz wrote: > On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > >>Aahz wrote: >> >>>On Thu, Jul 17, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: >>> >>>>The source for this demo is available at >>>>http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org/site.tar.gz >>> >>>That doesn't look too bad, either. All we'd need to fit in with the >>>current system is a way of organizing by directory. >> >>All pages have to be put into a hierarchical sitemap, but this doesn't >>have to do anything with directory structure. > > You're technically correct, but because we've currently got the site in > CVS, moving things around is a strongly non-preferred option. And given > that we've already got the site structure in directories, it seems to me > that whatever navigation tool we're using ought to be automated to use > that structure. Would it be OK to convert the current links.h files to something else automatically once and then use this new structure? >>BTW, is the source for www.python.org available somewhere? > > What do you mean by "source"? The .ht template files should be > available off www.python.org. They are, but traversing the site and downloading hundreds of .ht and links.h files by hand is not what I had in mind. A nice .tar.gz file would be much better. Bye, Walter D?rwald From matt at pollenation.net Fri Jul 18 14:35:18 2003 From: matt at pollenation.net (Matt Goodall) Date: Fri Jul 18 08:25:19 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> Message-ID: <3F17E986.80306@pollenation.net> Aahz wrote: >On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > > >>Aahz wrote: >> >> >>>On Thu, Jul 17, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: >>> >>All pages have to be put into a hierarchical sitemap, but this doesn't >>have to do anything with directory structure. >> >> > >You're technically correct, but because we've currently got the site in >CVS, moving things around is a strongly non-preferred option. And given >that we've already got the site structure in directories, it seems to me >that whatever navigation tool we're using ought to be automated to use >that structure. > But surely one of the key problems with the current site is that it is not well structured? That makes it hard to navigate, especially for beginners - probably the key group to attract. In my opinion, the site structure has to come first. If the directory structure fits then that's great; if not then it needs mapping to the site structure by some other means. I know CVS is a complete pain for moving things around but that shouldn't be allowed to limit the site. If we **really** don't want any form of site -> directory structure mapping then perhaps a move to Subversion would be a good idea? It's got Python bindings you know ;-). - Matt -- Matt Goodall, Pollenation Internet Ltd w: http://www.pollenationinternet.com e: matt@pollenation.net From sholden at holdenweb.com Fri Jul 18 11:44:21 2003 From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Fri Jul 18 10:49:16 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F17E986.80306@pollenation.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org > [mailto:pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org]On Behalf Of Matt Goodall > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 8:35 AM > To: Aahz > Cc: pydotorg-redesign@python.org > Subject: Re: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign > > > Aahz wrote: > > >On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > > > > > >>Aahz wrote: > >> > >> > >>>On Thu, Jul 17, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > >>> > > > >>All pages have to be put into a hierarchical sitemap, but > this doesn't > >>have to do anything with directory structure. > >> > >> > > > >You're technically correct, but because we've currently got > the site in > >CVS, moving things around is a strongly non-preferred > option. And given > >that we've already got the site structure in directories, it > seems to me > >that whatever navigation tool we're using ought to be > automated to use > >that structure. > > > > But surely one of the key problems with the current site is > that it is > not well structured? That makes it hard to navigate, especially for > beginners - probably the key group to attract. In my opinion, > the site > structure has to come first. If the directory structure fits > then that's > great; if not then it needs mapping to the site structure by > some other > means. > > I know CVS is a complete pain for moving things around but that > shouldn't be allowed to limit the site. If we **really** > don't want any > form of site -> directory structure mapping then perhaps a move to > Subversion would be a good idea? It's got Python bindings you > know ;-). > Or, heaven help us, move to some sort of dynamic content where what we serve up comes from a database rather than static files. I agree that we need to perform some restructuring that will make the existing directory structure questionable at best. It would be nice if we could avoid breaking links in the process, but that's quite a problem: each existing page would need to be replaced by a redirect, whether implemented as a server redirect or some other way. We're going to have to bite that bullet one day ... and the best answer is a complete restructuring of the still-current areas. Historical material can be left where it is. regards -- Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/ Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/ From skip at pobox.com Fri Jul 18 11:01:18 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Fri Jul 18 11:01:35 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: References: <3F17E986.80306@pollenation.net> Message-ID: <16152.3006.409705.588666@montanaro.dyndns.org> Steve> I agree that we need to perform some restructuring that will make Steve> the existing directory structure questionable at best. It would Steve> be nice if we could avoid breaking links in the process, but Steve> that's quite a problem: each existing page would need to be Steve> replaced by a redirect, whether implemented as a server redirect Steve> or some other way. mod_rewrite to the rescue! It's not hard to do simple redirects. It's just figuring out what to redirect to. You can also do it on an on-demand basis, by only establishing redirects for pages which frequently turn up in the error log as 404s and let rarely visited pages die. Skip From sholden at holdenweb.com Fri Jul 18 12:05:53 2003 From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Fri Jul 18 11:10:44 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <16152.3006.409705.588666@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: [Skip] > Steve> I agree that we need to perform some restructuring > that will make > Steve> the existing directory structure questionable at > best. It would > Steve> be nice if we could avoid breaking links in the > process, but > Steve> that's quite a problem: each existing page would need to be > Steve> replaced by a redirect, whether implemented as a > server redirect > Steve> or some other way. > > mod_rewrite to the rescue! It's not hard to do simple > redirects. It's just > figuring out what to redirect to. You can also do it on an > on-demand basis, > by only establishing redirects for pages which frequently > turn up in the > error log as 404s and let rarely visited pages die. > Yes, it's the "figuring out what to redirect to" that I was referrring to as the significant task. There's nothing worse than following a link and getting a 404, particularly if it's expressed in the terms Microsoft use. ["Hi, we realise you really want this piece of information but we couldn't be arsed leaving it where it was, or even leaving something behind to help you, so you are completely stuffed and you'll just have to start searching all over again. Have a nice day!"]. grumpi-ly y'rs - steve -- Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/ Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/ From fdrake at acm.org Fri Jul 18 12:38:44 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Fri Jul 18 11:39:21 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <16152.5252.966640.261391@grendel.zope.com> Walter D?rwald writes: > Would it be OK to convert the current links.h files to something else > automatically once and then use this new structure? I don't see why not. Biggest issue is that the new structure should be easy to work with, and it must be text (of some flavor). HT2HTML would need to be taught to deal with the new format. > They are, but traversing the site and downloading hundreds of .ht > and links.h files by hand is not what I had in mind. A nice .tar.gz > file would be much better. Sounds like you don't have CVS access; there isn't an anonymous server. I might be able to tar up a copy later today if you think it'll really help. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From altis at semi-retired.com Fri Jul 18 09:56:12 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Fri Jul 18 11:49:59 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: Steve Holden > > Yes, it's the "figuring out what to redirect to" that I was referrring > to as the significant task. There's nothing worse than following a link > and getting a 404, particularly if it's expressed in the terms Microsoft > use. > > ["Hi, we realise you really want this piece of information but we > couldn't be arsed leaving it where it was, or even leaving something > behind to help you, so you are completely stuffed and you'll just have > to start searching all over again. Have a nice day!"]. > > grumpi-ly y'rs - steve Speaking of 404s. I get them every now and then on python.org so that reminds me to ask whether anyone is looking at the error logs and then going back and fixing the pages on python.org with bad links? I realize this is a webmaster@python.org question, but since many of you admins are on this list... Perhaps that should be one of the redesign goals? Perhaps having a script auto-generate a list of 404 pages and the referer page? ka From fdrake at acm.org Fri Jul 18 12:32:09 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Fri Jul 18 11:55:18 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Restructuring python.org In-Reply-To: <3F17E986.80306@pollenation.net> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E986.80306@pollenation.net> Message-ID: <16152.4857.412699.599986@grendel.zope.com> Matt Goodall writes: > But surely one of the key problems with the current site is that it is > not well structured? That makes it hard to navigate, especially for > beginners - probably the key group to attract. In my opinion, the site > structure has to come first. I agree. I just have no idea what's wrong with the current structure, not being much of a newbie anymore. If you have a proposal, this is a good place to describe it. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From walter at livinglogic.de Fri Jul 18 19:00:58 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 12:01:34 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <16152.5252.966640.261391@grendel.zope.com> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> <16152.5252.966640.261391@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <3F1819BA.3070602@livinglogic.de> Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: > Walter D?rwald writes: > > Would it be OK to convert the current links.h files to something else > > automatically once and then use this new structure? > > I don't see why not. Biggest issue is that the new structure should > be easy to work with, and it must be text (of some flavor). What about Python source? For my mockup I've used something like: pages = StaticPage("Python", StaticPage("Documentation", StaticPage("2.1", crumb="Python 2.1", title="Python 2.1", url="root:doc_21.html", localkeywords=[] ), ), StaticPage("Developers", crumb="Developers", title="Stuff for developers", url="root:dev.html" ), crumb="Home", title="Python", url="root:index.html", inheritablekeywords=["Python"] ) The problem is that this might scale badly if we have many pages. > HT2HTML > would need to be taught to deal with the new format. What I wanted to try out was whether it's possible to *replace* HT2HTML. > > They are, but traversing the site and downloading hundreds of .ht > > and links.h files by hand is not what I had in mind. A nice .tar.gz > > file would be much better. > > Sounds like you don't have CVS access; Not for the CVS repository with the website. > there isn't an anonymous > server. I might be able to tar up a copy later today if you think > it'll really help. I could download a few of the pages to try it out, but the real test would be converting the complete site. Bye, Walter D?rwald From fdrake at acm.org Fri Jul 18 14:03:33 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Fri Jul 18 13:04:10 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F1819BA.3070602@livinglogic.de> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> <16152.5252.966640.261391@grendel.zope.com> <3F1819BA.3070602@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <16152.10341.975137.662607@grendel.zope.com> Walter D?rwald writes: > What about Python source? For my mockup I've used something like: Oddly enough, I really don't like storing data as executable Python code. That may be just me, but something that opens it up a bit seems like a good idea. > The problem is that this might scale badly if we have many pages. Were you thinking of a single structure for the entire site, or local structures, such as per directory? I think storing the data close to the relevant portions of the site is a good thing. > What I wanted to try out was whether it's possible to *replace* > HT2HTML. Yes. The .ht files would need to be converted to whatever is needed or used by the new software. There are also huge chunks of content that are simply dropped into place, outside of CVS. (Gasp!) The online versions of the documentation are the culprit here (hopefully the only case). The pages that are specific to the website (download.html, index.html) are generated from .ht files in CVS like anything else, but the content that matches the distributed files are just unpacked from the released distributions. > I could download a few of the pages to try it out, but the real test > would be converting the complete site. I'll send you a tarball in a separate email, and spare the list. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jul 18 14:16:02 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri Jul 18 13:16:07 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030718171601.GA21664@panix.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Kevin Altis wrote: > > Speaking of 404s. I get them every now and then on python.org so that > reminds me to ask whether anyone is looking at the error logs and > then going back and fixing the pages on python.org with bad links? I > realize this is a webmaster@python.org question, but since many of you > admins are on this list... Perhaps that should be one of the redesign > goals? Perhaps having a script auto-generate a list of 404 pages and > the referer page? That's Yet Another Pending Task. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jul 18 14:25:27 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri Jul 18 13:25:31 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F17E986.80306@pollenation.net> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E986.80306@pollenation.net> Message-ID: <20030718172527.GB21664@panix.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Matt Goodall wrote: > Aahz wrote: >>On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: >>> >>>All pages have to be put into a hierarchical sitemap, but this doesn't >>>have to do anything with directory structure. >> >>You're technically correct, but because we've currently got the site in >>CVS, moving things around is a strongly non-preferred option. And given >>that we've already got the site structure in directories, it seems to me >>that whatever navigation tool we're using ought to be automated to use >>that structure. > > But surely one of the key problems with the current site is that it is > not well structured? That makes it hard to navigate, especially for > beginners - probably the key group to attract. In my opinion, the site > structure has to come first. If the directory structure fits then that's > great; if not then it needs mapping to the site structure by some other > means. That's not the point. The point is that we're currently talking about a reasonably minimal graphic redesign and a front-page redesign. If we start talking about restructuring the content, that's a *huge* task with lots of separate pieces. It's not just individual pages that need moving; many pages need to be merged or split. I'd prefer to separate the two, and that means that the graphic redesign needs to incorporate the current structure. Perhaps someone would like to take charge of a restructuring sprint? -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jul 18 14:31:57 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri Jul 18 13:32:01 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <20030718173157.GA23972@panix.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > Aahz wrote: >>On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: >>> >>>All pages have to be put into a hierarchical sitemap, but this doesn't >>>have to do anything with directory structure. >> >>You're technically correct, but because we've currently got the site in >>CVS, moving things around is a strongly non-preferred option. And given >>that we've already got the site structure in directories, it seems to me >>that whatever navigation tool we're using ought to be automated to use >>that structure. > > Would it be OK to convert the current links.h files to something else > automatically once and then use this new structure? In theory, yes; in practice, it could make things difficult until we move from CVS to something else, unless we continue using the directory structure as the navigation structure. >>>BTW, is the source for www.python.org available somewhere? >> >>What do you mean by "source"? The .ht template files should be >>available off www.python.org. > > They are, but traversing the site and downloading hundreds of .ht > and links.h files by hand is not what I had in mind. A nice .tar.gz > file would be much better. Gotcha. I just tarred up all the .ht files, but didn't get the .h files; as a .bz2, that's 700K. How do you want it delivered? -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From walter at livinglogic.de Fri Jul 18 20:36:39 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 13:37:14 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <20030718173157.GA23972@panix.com> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> <20030718173157.GA23972@panix.com> Message-ID: <3F183027.4090108@livinglogic.de> Aahz wrote: > [...] >>Would it be OK to convert the current links.h files to something else >>automatically once and then use this new structure? > > In theory, yes; in practice, it could make things difficult until we > move from CVS to something else, unless we continue using the directory > structure as the navigation structure. The conversion script could include the CVS calls. >>>>BTW, is the source for www.python.org available somewhere? >>> >>>What do you mean by "source"? The .ht template files should be >>>available off www.python.org. >> >>They are, but traversing the site and downloading hundreds of .ht >>and links.h files by hand is not what I had in mind. A nice .tar.gz >>file would be much better. > > Gotcha. I just tarred up all the .ht files, but didn't get the .h > files; as a .bz2, that's 700K. How do you want it delivered? Fred already has a tarball for me, but his is over 20MB, so what's the difference? Bye, Walter D?rwald From fdrake at acm.org Fri Jul 18 14:36:51 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Fri Jul 18 13:37:40 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <20030718172527.GB21664@panix.com> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E986.80306@pollenation.net> <20030718172527.GB21664@panix.com> Message-ID: <16152.12339.266823.82902@grendel.zope.com> Aahz writes: > That's not the point. The point is that we're currently talking about a > reasonably minimal graphic redesign and a front-page redesign. If we > start talking about restructuring the content, that's a *huge* task with > lots of separate pieces. It's not just individual pages that need > moving; many pages need to be merged or split. I'd prefer to separate > the two, and that means that the graphic redesign needs to incorporate > the current structure. One catch, of course, is that the presentational design can be heavily impacted by some aspects of site organization. Local changes in organization are probably not an issue, but large-scale changes in structure need to be considered. > Perhaps someone would like to take charge of a restructuring sprint? Perhaps someone should explain what they think needs restructuring? I'm fairly happy with the site, but then, I never need to find anything on it. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From fdrake at acm.org Fri Jul 18 14:39:20 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Fri Jul 18 13:39:57 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F183027.4090108@livinglogic.de> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> <20030718173157.GA23972@panix.com> <3F183027.4090108@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <16152.12488.575573.513516@grendel.zope.com> Walter D?rwald writes: > Fred already has a tarball for me, but his is over 20MB, so > what's the difference? Mine includes *everything* in the pydotorg and ht2html CVS, including images, powerpoint slides, scripts, etc. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jul 18 14:41:05 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri Jul 18 13:41:08 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F183027.4090108@livinglogic.de> References: <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> <20030718173157.GA23972@panix.com> <3F183027.4090108@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <20030718174104.GA25182@panix.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > Aahz wrote: > >>>Would it be OK to convert the current links.h files to something else >>>automatically once and then use this new structure? >> >> In theory, yes; in practice, it could make things difficult until we >> move from CVS to something else, unless we continue using the directory >> structure as the navigation structure. > > The conversion script could include the CVS calls. Okay.... I'd be rather leery of that, but I suppose it could work. If it's bulletproof, that would make it easier to do further re-orgs. >>>>>BTW, is the source for www.python.org available somewhere? >>>> >>>>What do you mean by "source"? The .ht template files should be >>>>available off www.python.org. >>> >>>They are, but traversing the site and downloading hundreds of .ht >>>and links.h files by hand is not what I had in mind. A nice .tar.gz >>>file would be much better. >> >> Gotcha. I just tarred up all the .ht files, but didn't get the .h >> files; as a .bz2, that's 700K. How do you want it delivered? > > Fred already has a tarball for me, but his is over 20MB, so > what's the difference? His probably has the whole site (minus the downloads, probably); I've just got the .ht and .h files. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From walter at livinglogic.de Fri Jul 18 20:42:54 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 13:43:30 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <16152.10341.975137.662607@grendel.zope.com> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> <16152.5252.966640.261391@grendel.zope.com> <3F1819BA.3070602@livinglogic.de> <16152.10341.975137.662607@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <3F18319E.1000802@livinglogic.de> Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: > Walter D?rwald writes: > > What about Python source? For my mockup I've used something like: > > Oddly enough, I really don't like storing data as executable Python > code. That may be just me, but something that opens it up a bit seems > like a good idea. OK, then we could use an XML file for that. But this file has to be parsed by a Python script. Why not instantiate the data structure directly? > > The problem is that this might scale badly if we have many pages. > > Were you thinking of a single structure for the entire site, or local > structures, such as per directory? I was using one global structure for the complete site. > I think storing the data close to > the relevant portions of the site is a good thing. This ties the site structure to the directory structure. Whether this is good or bad is a different topic. > > What I wanted to try out was whether it's possible to *replace* > > HT2HTML. > > Yes. The .ht files would need to be converted to whatever is needed > or used by the new software. Exactly. > There are also huge chunks of content that are simply dropped into > place, outside of CVS. (Gasp!) Does this content bypass HT2HTML? > The online versions of the > documentation are the culprit here (hopefully the only case). This shouldn't be a problem as long as source and build/install directory are different. > The > pages that are specific to the website (download.html, index.html) are > generated from .ht files in CVS like anything else, but the content > that matches the distributed files are just unpacked from the released > distributions. > > [...] Bye, Walter D?rwald From fdrake at acm.org Fri Jul 18 14:44:24 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Fri Jul 18 13:45:03 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <20030718174104.GA25182@panix.com> References: <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> <20030718173157.GA23972@panix.com> <3F183027.4090108@livinglogic.de> <20030718174104.GA25182@panix.com> Message-ID: <16152.12792.494317.68628@grendel.zope.com> Aahz writes: > Okay.... I'd be rather leery of that, but I suppose it could work. If > it's bulletproof, that would make it easier to do further re-orgs. Best would be a record of the cvs commands that would need to be run (including from where, if not from the top level). That would allow the entire thing to be tested without touching the repository. > His probably has the whole site (minus the downloads, probably); I've > just got the .ht and .h files. Yup. A real conversion script will need to understand to skip things it shouldn't touch, so it seems useful to include everything. Including the scripts ensure Walter can see how everything is knit together. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jul 18 14:45:42 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri Jul 18 13:45:47 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <16152.12339.266823.82902@grendel.zope.com> References: <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E986.80306@pollenation.net> <20030718172527.GB21664@panix.com> <16152.12339.266823.82902@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <20030718174542.GB25182@panix.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: > > Perhaps someone should explain what they think needs restructuring? > I'm fairly happy with the site, but then, I never need to find > anything on it. Pieces that I'm aware of off the top of my head: * Getting rid of PSA stuff and moving still-valid info to other parts of the site * Reorganizing UserGroups and NonEnglish -- there's currently a lot of overlap, and what I'd really like to do is move it to a database with multiple views * Figuring out how to manage the commercial exits and other kinds of links to external resources * Fixing up the pycon directory (I made a boo-boo when setting it up, and we'll need to move the old stuff before starting in on DC2004) Overall, if you know what you're looking for, it's easy to get, but finding stuff you don't know about can be difficult. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From walter at livinglogic.de Fri Jul 18 20:45:42 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 13:46:16 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <16152.12488.575573.513516@grendel.zope.com> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> <20030718173157.GA23972@panix.com> <3F183027.4090108@livinglogic.de> <16152.12488.575573.513516@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <3F183246.8070704@livinglogic.de> Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: > Walter D?rwald writes: > > Fred already has a tarball for me, but his is over 20MB, so > > what's the difference? > > Mine includes *everything* in the pydotorg and ht2html CVS, including > images, powerpoint slides, scripts, etc. OK, so I'll be on the safe side with this tarball, as my connectivity will be rather bad over the weekend. So if you could put your tarball somewhere to download, it would be perfect. Bye, Walter D?rwald From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jul 18 14:48:29 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri Jul 18 13:48:32 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F18319E.1000802@livinglogic.de> References: <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> <16152.5252.966640.261391@grendel.zope.com> <3F1819BA.3070602@livinglogic.de> <16152.10341.975137.662607@grendel.zope.com> <3F18319E.1000802@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <20030718174828.GC25182@panix.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: >> >>I think storing the data close to >>the relevant portions of the site is a good thing. > > This ties the site structure to the directory structure. > Whether this is good or bad is a different topic. If it's neither tied to directory structure nor stored in a database, navigating between pages that need updating and their locations in the directory will likely be frustrating. >>There are also huge chunks of content that are simply dropped into >>place, outside of CVS. (Gasp!) > > Does this content bypass HT2HTML? Yup. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From fdrake at acm.org Fri Jul 18 14:50:40 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Fri Jul 18 13:51:18 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F18319E.1000802@livinglogic.de> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> <16152.5252.966640.261391@grendel.zope.com> <3F1819BA.3070602@livinglogic.de> <16152.10341.975137.662607@grendel.zope.com> <3F18319E.1000802@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <16152.13168.954492.995391@grendel.zope.com> Walter D?rwald writes: > OK, then we could use an XML file for that. But this file has to be > parsed by a Python script. Why not instantiate the data structure > directly? It could be XML, or it could be something else. Keeping the data separate from the structure allows the data to be used in different ways more easily. > I was using one global structure for the complete site. Hmm. > This ties the site structure to the directory structure. > Whether this is good or bad is a different topic. I don't think we want the two to be too different; it makes it more difficult to maintain the site from a CVS checkout. > > There are also huge chunks of content that are simply dropped into > > place, outside of CVS. (Gasp!) > > Does this content bypass HT2HTML? Yes. The Python online docs are just a pile of finished HTML pages that get unpacked into the live site. > This shouldn't be a problem as long as source and build/install > directory are different. Maybe. There are specific issues with regard to directories like doc/2.2.3/ -- the pre-built HTML and the site built from .ht files contend for the index.html name, so I have to do the installation dance just right once we have a final release. There are probably ways to fix that, though. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From skip at pobox.com Fri Jul 18 13:55:07 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Fri Jul 18 13:55:21 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <20030718171601.GA21664@panix.com> References: <20030718171601.GA21664@panix.com> Message-ID: <16152.13435.105799.99011@montanaro.dyndns.org> >> Perhaps having a script auto-generate a list of 404 pages and the >> referer page? aahz> That's Yet Another Pending Task. Check it off: http://www.python.org/other/404s.html Generated at 4:30am each night using /usr/home/skip/bin/check404s. Crude, but effective enough I think. It can obviously be improved, but this should suffice for now. Note that it's not currently referenced from the website, so if you're keen on this information, bookmark it. Skip From walter at livinglogic.de Fri Jul 18 21:01:52 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 14:02:26 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <16152.12792.494317.68628@grendel.zope.com> References: <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> <20030718173157.GA23972@panix.com> <3F183027.4090108@livinglogic.de> <20030718174104.GA25182@panix.com> <16152.12792.494317.68628@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <3F183610.2010406@livinglogic.de> Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: > Aahz writes: > > Okay.... I'd be rather leery of that, but I suppose it could work. If > > it's bulletproof, that would make it easier to do further re-orgs. > > Best would be a record of the cvs commands that would need to be run > (including from where, if not from the top level). That would allow > the entire thing to be tested without touching the repository. If we replace the per-directory links.h with one global structure, we probably one need to remove all links.h files and add one global file. If we keep the per-directory links.h we don't have to change any filenames. > > His probably has the whole site (minus the downloads, probably); I've > > just got the .ht and .h files. > > Yup. A real conversion script will need to understand to skip things > it shouldn't touch, so it seems useful to include everything. > Including the scripts ensure Walter can see how everything is knit > together. I think the first step would be to simply convert the .ht without touching any navigation. The next step would be to handle the special headers in the .ht files. Finally a new sitemap structure has to be defined. Bye, Walter D?rwald From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jul 18 15:03:48 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri Jul 18 14:03:51 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <16152.13435.105799.99011@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <20030718171601.GA21664@panix.com> <16152.13435.105799.99011@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20030718180348.GA27923@panix.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Skip Montanaro wrote: > > >> Perhaps having a script auto-generate a list of 404 pages and the > >> referer page? > > aahz> That's Yet Another Pending Task. > > Check it off: > > http://www.python.org/other/404s.html > > Generated at 4:30am each night using /usr/home/skip/bin/check404s. Crude, > but effective enough I think. It can obviously be improved, but this should > suffice for now. Thanks! But I'm not sure how useful that is. Could you at least tabulate and sort by the number of requests for each URL? Too many people stick nonsense in their browsers. What I'd really like to do (eventually) is spider the site looking for broken links. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From fdrake at acm.org Fri Jul 18 15:06:01 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Fri Jul 18 14:06:41 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <16152.13435.105799.99011@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <20030718171601.GA21664@panix.com> <16152.13435.105799.99011@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <16152.14089.316923.604660@grendel.zope.com> Skip Montanaro writes: > Check it off: > > http://www.python.org/other/404s.html Cool! We could stick this in dev/pydotorg/ though, to keep "site management" stuff together. > Generated at 4:30am each night using /usr/home/skip/bin/check404s. Crude, > but effective enough I think. It can obviously be improved, but this should > suffice for now. I think the following information would be really helpful: - the referrer for each path (and there may be one or more) - when the most recent reference was made (I'd sort by this) Even better would be to split the list into two sections: referers from python.org, and from elsewhere. > Note that it's not currently referenced from the website, so if you're keen > on this information, bookmark it. I'll add a link once you've adjusted the script to dump the results in dev/pydotorg/ ;-) -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From walter at livinglogic.de Fri Jul 18 21:07:09 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 14:07:43 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <16152.13168.954492.995391@grendel.zope.com> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> <16152.5252.966640.261391@grendel.zope.com> <3F1819BA.3070602@livinglogic.de> <16152.10341.975137.662607@grendel.zope.com> <3F18319E.1000802@livinglogic.de> <16152.13168.954492.995391@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <3F18374D.1030605@livinglogic.de> Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: > Walter D?rwald writes: > > OK, then we could use an XML file for that. But this file has to be > > parsed by a Python script. Why not instantiate the data structure > > directly? > > It could be XML, or it could be something else. > > Keeping the data separate from the structure allows the data to be > used in different ways more easily. If you have a parser that parser the data file and can regenerate the data file and it's possible the instantiate the data structure directly, there shouldn't be any difference. > > I was using one global structure for the complete site. > > Hmm. > > > This ties the site structure to the directory structure. > > Whether this is good or bad is a different topic. > > I don't think we want the two to be too different; it makes it more > difficult to maintain the site from a CVS checkout. Of course this should be used as an obsfuscation device. But it would allow has to move files aroung in the sitemap without having to move them in the file system and vice versa. Even links in the content area could use this sitemap addressing scheme. > > > There are also huge chunks of content that are simply dropped into > > > place, outside of CVS. (Gasp!) > > > > Does this content bypass HT2HTML? > > Yes. The Python online docs are just a pile of finished HTML pages > that get unpacked into the live site. This doesn't sound like a problem per se. > > This shouldn't be a problem as long as source and build/install > > directory are different. > > Maybe. There are specific issues with regard to directories like > doc/2.2.3/ -- the pre-built HTML and the site built from .ht files > contend for the index.html name, so I have to do the installation > dance just right once we have a final release. There are probably > ways to fix that, though. OK, so that's the problem. But if one installed file always overwrites the other installed file, why not simple remove the source for the overwritten one? Bye, Walter D?rwald From fdrake at acm.org Fri Jul 18 15:15:47 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Fri Jul 18 14:16:30 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] site package Message-ID: <16152.14675.687925.341848@grendel.zope.com> I've placed a copy of an export of the pydotorg CVS (with an embedded export fo HT2HTML in the right place) on the FTP server: ftp://ftp.python.org/pub/python/temp/pydotorg.tar.bz2 This is mostly for Walter's edification, but anyone here is free to pick it up over the next few hours. When I leave the office in a few hours, I'll remove it to conserve disk space (don't want any more Mondays!). Walter, please let me know when you've picked it up. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From walter at livinglogic.de Fri Jul 18 21:23:06 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 14:23:43 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] site package In-Reply-To: <16152.14675.687925.341848@grendel.zope.com> References: <16152.14675.687925.341848@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <3F183B0A.3030802@livinglogic.de> Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: > I've placed a copy of an export of the pydotorg CVS (with an embedded > export fo HT2HTML in the right place) on the FTP server: > > ftp://ftp.python.org/pub/python/temp/pydotorg.tar.bz2 > > This is mostly for Walter's edification, but anyone here is free to > pick it up over the next few hours. When I leave the office in a few > hours, I'll remove it to conserve disk space (don't want any more > Mondays!). > > Walter, please let me know when you've picked it up. OK, I've got the tarball and it unpacks OK. Thanks! Bye, Walter D?rwald From fdrake at acm.org Fri Jul 18 15:30:30 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Fri Jul 18 14:31:07 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F183610.2010406@livinglogic.de> References: <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> <20030718173157.GA23972@panix.com> <3F183027.4090108@livinglogic.de> <20030718174104.GA25182@panix.com> <16152.12792.494317.68628@grendel.zope.com> <3F183610.2010406@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <16152.15558.296697.702926@grendel.zope.com> Walter D?rwald writes: > If we replace the per-directory links.h with one global structure, we > probably one need to remove all links.h files and add one global file. > > If we keep the per-directory links.h we don't have to change any > filenames. It sounds like the real issue is whether we want a global sitemap-based structure or not. I don't see any real issue with the filenames; the issue is really one of supporting old links. > I think the first step would be to simply convert the .ht without > touching any navigation. The next step would be to handle the > special headers in the .ht files. Finally a new sitemap structure > has to be defined. I'm not sure what you want to convert the .ht files to. There are, I suspect, two issues: - functionality: Are they missing something they need? Are they getting in the way of something else? - technology: You found something cooler. (Not hard to do!) -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From walter at livinglogic.de Fri Jul 18 21:52:17 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 14:52:53 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <16152.15558.296697.702926@grendel.zope.com> References: <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> <20030718173157.GA23972@panix.com> <3F183027.4090108@livinglogic.de> <20030718174104.GA25182@panix.com> <16152.12792.494317.68628@grendel.zope.com> <3F183610.2010406@livinglogic.de> <16152.15558.296697.702926@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <3F1841E1.3020104@livinglogic.de> Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: > Walter D?rwald writes: > > If we replace the per-directory links.h with one global structure, we > > probably one need to remove all links.h files and add one global file. > > > > If we keep the per-directory links.h we don't have to change any > > filenames. > > It sounds like the real issue is whether we want a global > sitemap-based structure or not. I don't see any real issue with the > filenames; the issue is really one of supporting old links. > > > I think the first step would be to simply convert the .ht without > > touching any navigation. The next step would be to handle the > > special headers in the .ht files. Finally a new sitemap structure > > has to be defined. > > I'm not sure what you want to convert the .ht files to. XIST source files, because that's the tool I'm most familiar with. ;) > There are, I > suspect, two issues: > > - functionality: Are they missing something they need? Are they > getting in the way of something else? Using XIST would open up several possibilities: Using custom conversion not only for the global page structure, but inside the content area as well. Several conversion modes: I can think of RSS and PDF. For the XIST pages themselves I'm currently implementing automatic PDF generation. I've put the current state of the XIST pages on http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/python/. If you have Mozilla installed, the site navigation bar provides links to several versions of the page. Or you can simply replace the .html extension with .pdf to get the PDF version. We could extract reSTified docstrings from Python files and put them into webpages. ... > - technology: You found something cooler. (Not hard to do!) Of course we have to balance the joy of something cool with the pain of migration. (And I don't know yet what I'm getting myself into by suggesting this! ;)) Bye, Walter D?rwald From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jul 18 16:18:43 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri Jul 18 15:18:47 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F1841E1.3020104@livinglogic.de> References: <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> <20030718173157.GA23972@panix.com> <3F183027.4090108@livinglogic.de> <20030718174104.GA25182@panix.com> <16152.12792.494317.68628@grendel.zope.com> <3F183610.2010406@livinglogic.de> <16152.15558.296697.702926@grendel.zope.com> <3F1841E1.3020104@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <20030718191843.GA14723@panix.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: >> >>- functionality: Are they missing something they need? Are they >> getting in the way of something else? > > Using XIST would open up several possibilities: Using custom > conversion not only for the global page structure, but inside the > content area as well. Several conversion modes: I can think of > RSS and PDF. For the XIST pages themselves I'm currently implementing > automatic PDF generation. I've put the current state of the XIST pages > on http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/python/. If you have Mozilla > installed, the site navigation bar provides links to several versions > of the page. Or you can simply replace the .html extension with .pdf > to get the PDF version. We could extract reSTified docstrings from > Python files and put them into webpages. ... What I'd suggest starting with is leaving the XIST structure internal to ht2html, and only adding the bare minimum of necessary navigation information to .ht and .h files for supporting the breadcrumbs and navbar. Once that has proven itself, we can talk about converting the .ht files themselves to XIST. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From matt at pollenation.net Fri Jul 18 20:36:45 2003 From: matt at pollenation.net (Matt Goodall) Date: Fri Jul 18 15:36:47 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design Message-ID: <1058557009.29067.9.camel@localhost> Hi, There's now a link on the wiki to an HTML version of the design we came up with. Here's the link again: http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index.html It's not been tested in the full range of browsers yet but that's something we can fix if there's enough interest. It should degrade nicely for the older and text only browsers already. Cheers, Matt -- Matt Goodall, Pollenation Internet Ltd w: http://www.pollenation.net e: matt@pollenation.net From fdrake at acm.org Fri Jul 18 16:40:50 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Fri Jul 18 15:41:28 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <3F1841E1.3020104@livinglogic.de> References: <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E5F1.9070305@livinglogic.de> <20030718173157.GA23972@panix.com> <3F183027.4090108@livinglogic.de> <20030718174104.GA25182@panix.com> <16152.12792.494317.68628@grendel.zope.com> <3F183610.2010406@livinglogic.de> <16152.15558.296697.702926@grendel.zope.com> <3F1841E1.3020104@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <16152.19778.293797.865265@grendel.zope.com> Walter D?rwald writes: > XIST source files, because that's the tool I'm most familiar > with. ;) Ah, googling for XIST reveals some relationship between your email address and the XIST pages. ;-) I won't have time to look at that over the weekend (I'll be off the net). > Using XIST would open up several possibilities: Using custom > conversion not only for the global page structure, but inside the > content area as well. Several conversion modes: I can think of > RSS and PDF. For the XIST pages themselves I'm currently implementing > automatic PDF generation. I've put the current state of the XIST pages > on http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/python/. If you have Mozilla > installed, the site navigation bar provides links to several versions > of the page. Or you can simply replace the .html extension with .pdf Neat. > Of course we have to balance the joy of something cool with > the pain of migration. I actually don't think a migration to some reasonable non-HT2HTML technology would be painful; creating the migration script may be another matter, but the .ht files should be easy enough to understand programmatically, since that's what we do now. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From walter at livinglogic.de Fri Jul 18 22:49:39 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 15:50:14 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <1058557009.29067.9.camel@localhost> References: <1058557009.29067.9.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> Matt Goodall wrote: > Hi, > > There's now a link on the wiki to an HTML version of the design we came > up with. Here's the link again: > > http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index.html > > It's not been tested in the full range of browsers yet but that's > something we can fix if there's enough interest. It should degrade > nicely for the older and text only browsers already. Thanks! There's one XHTML problem: You're using
inside of s, which isn't allowed by the XHTML DTD. But you can simply drop the
s and put "display: block" into the style for the links. Older browsers must then be forced to treat the links as block level elements. This can be done by simply putting the inside a
. Bye, Walter D?rwald From fdrake at acm.org Fri Jul 18 17:08:10 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Fri Jul 18 16:08:48 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <20030718174542.GB25182@panix.com> References: <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E986.80306@pollenation.net> <20030718172527.GB21664@panix.com> <16152.12339.266823.82902@grendel.zope.com> <20030718174542.GB25182@panix.com> Message-ID: <16152.21418.442634.401195@grendel.zope.com> Aahz writes: > Pieces that I'm aware of off the top of my head: Yep, all good things to get done. Mostly things I don't think about due to excess familiarity; I'm glad you're more on top of this than I am! It might be good to start a list of these "to-do" tasks in dev/pydotorg/ so people like me can't say we haven't a clue. ;-) > * Getting rid of PSA stuff and moving still-valid info to other parts of > the site > > * Reorganizing UserGroups and NonEnglish -- there's currently a lot of > overlap, and what I'd really like to do is move it to a database with > multiple views Were you thinking a database like MySQL/Postgres, or a text/XML file that gets processed statically (like the mirrors list). > * Figuring out how to manage the commercial exits and other kinds of > links to external resources I'd love to have some sort of "named links" facility; this would be useful from within the docs as well, to avoid dead links from old versions of the docs to external resources that have moved. > * Fixing up the pycon directory (I made a boo-boo when setting it up, > and we'll need to move the old stuff before starting in on DC2004) Ugh. Yeah. Not much fun there, but should mostly just be tedious. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From matt at pollenation.net Fri Jul 18 21:32:00 2003 From: matt at pollenation.net (Matt Goodall) Date: Fri Jul 18 16:32:01 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> References: <1058557009.29067.9.camel@localhost> <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <1058560326.29067.20.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2003-07-18 at 20:49, Walter D?rwald wrote: > There's one XHTML problem: You're using
inside of s, > which isn't allowed by the XHTML DTD. But you can simply drop the >
s and put "display: block" into the style for the links. > Older browsers must then be forced to treat the links as block > level elements. This can be done by simply putting the inside > a
. Oh yeah, didn't notice that. To be honest, the code hasn't been validated or anything yet. It would certainly need to be cleaned up a little, validated and proper x-browser tested etc. We're more than happy to do that but there's probably not much point unless people actually like the design and want to use it. - Matt -- Matt Goodall, Pollenation Internet Ltd w: http://www.pollenation.net e: matt@pollenation.net From walter at livinglogic.de Fri Jul 18 23:56:15 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 16:56:49 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <1058560326.29067.20.camel@localhost> References: <1058557009.29067.9.camel@localhost> <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> <1058560326.29067.20.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <3F185EEF.20405@livinglogic.de> Matt Goodall wrote: > On Fri, 2003-07-18 at 20:49, Walter D?rwald wrote: > >>There's one XHTML problem: You're using
inside of s, >>which isn't allowed by the XHTML DTD. But you can simply drop the >>
s and put "display: block" into the style for the links. >>Older browsers must then be forced to treat the links as block >>level elements. This can be done by simply putting the inside >>a
. > > Oh yeah, didn't notice that. To be honest, the code hasn't been > validated or anything yet. It would certainly need to be cleaned up a > little, validated and proper x-browser tested etc. We're more than happy > to do that but there's probably not much point unless people actually > like the design and want to use it. I really like your design. It looks much friendlier than my version. Bye, Walter D?rwald From tim.parkin at pollenationinternet.com Fri Jul 18 22:57:44 2003 From: tim.parkin at pollenationinternet.com (Tim Parkin) Date: Fri Jul 18 16:58:02 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <1058558849.29067.11.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <006401c34d6f$433ebec0$0a00a8c0@JASPER> > Matt Goodall wrote: > > > Thanks! > > There's one XHTML problem: You're using
inside of s, > which isn't allowed by the XHTML DTD. But you can simply drop the >
s and put "display: block" into the style for the links. > Older browsers must then be forced to treat the links as block > level elements. This can be done by simply putting the inside > a
. > > Bye, > Walter D?rwald Thanks, I hadn't checked as I was in a rush for my dinner :-).. All fixed now though... It's XHTML 1.0 Strict And the links work aswell... The HTML is kept extremely simple so little work should need doing template-wise. If I get a chance over the weekend I'll see how the current templating system works and try to compile my take on an information architecture that won't need too much re-jigging. Tim Parkin From walter at livinglogic.de Sat Jul 19 00:02:48 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 17:08:26 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <006401c34d6f$433ebec0$0a00a8c0@JASPER> References: <006401c34d6f$433ebec0$0a00a8c0@JASPER> Message-ID: <3F186078.2000207@livinglogic.de> Tim Parkin wrote: > [...] > If I get a chance over the weekend I'll see how the current templating > system works and try to compile my take on an information architecture > that won't need too much re-jigging. Another nit: The corner of the blue border is part of the Python logo. This will give problems once the navigation column has to scale. Bye, Walter D?rwald From amk at amk.ca Fri Jul 18 18:15:30 2003 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Fri Jul 18 17:13:16 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <16152.21418.442634.401195@grendel.zope.com> References: <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E986.80306@pollenation.net> <20030718172527.GB21664@panix.com> <16152.12339.266823.82902@grendel.zope.com> <20030718174542.GB25182@panix.com> <16152.21418.442634.401195@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <20030718211529.GA24866@nyman.amk.ca> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 04:08:10PM -0400, Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: >Were you thinking a database like MySQL/Postgres, or a text/XML file >that gets processed statically (like the mirrors list). A simple OPML (XML-based, naturally) file could easily be turned into HTML, and the original might be useful for other purposes. >I'd love to have some sort of "named links" facility; this would be >useful from within the docs as well, to avoid dead links from old >versions of the docs to external resources that have moved. Would you want some sort of generalized redirect facility? Say, so that going to www.python.org/redirect/amk goes to my home page, /redirect/cookbook goes to the Python cookbook, etc? Or would we want something in the toolchain, so that \namedurl{cookbook} is magically replaced by the correct URL? --amk From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jul 18 19:25:03 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri Jul 18 18:25:07 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <3F185EEF.20405@livinglogic.de> References: <1058557009.29067.9.camel@localhost> <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> <1058560326.29067.20.camel@localhost> <3F185EEF.20405@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <20030718222503.GA21348@panix.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > > I really like your design. It looks much friendlier than my version. Perhaps. OTOH, I do like the way you've got navigation set up in your version. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From walter at livinglogic.de Sat Jul 19 01:35:51 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 18:36:25 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <20030718222503.GA21348@panix.com> References: <1058557009.29067.9.camel@localhost> <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> <1058560326.29067.20.camel@localhost> <3F185EEF.20405@livinglogic.de> <20030718222503.GA21348@panix.com> Message-ID: <3F187647.4080303@livinglogic.de> Aahz wrote: > On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > >>I really like your design. It looks much friendlier than my version. > > > Perhaps. OTOH, I do like the way you've got navigation set up in your > version. I mean the way it looks, or the way it works? The way it works can of course always be copied to Matt's design. Bye, Walter D?rwald From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jul 18 19:40:40 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri Jul 18 18:40:42 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <3F187647.4080303@livinglogic.de> References: <1058557009.29067.9.camel@localhost> <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> <1058560326.29067.20.camel@localhost> <3F185EEF.20405@livinglogic.de> <20030718222503.GA21348@panix.com> <3F187647.4080303@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <20030718224040.GA26865@panix.com> On Sat, Jul 19, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > Aahz wrote: >>On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: >>> >>>I really like your design. It looks much friendlier than my version. >> >>Perhaps. OTOH, I do like the way you've got navigation set up in your >>version. > > I mean the way it looks, or the way it works? > The way it works can of course always be copied to Matt's design. Yup, but to me "works" == "friendly". ;-) (Don't forget that I'm judging how it looks in Lynx.) I'm perfectly willing to leave purely esthetic judgments to other people. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From matt at pollenation.net Fri Jul 18 23:42:05 2003 From: matt at pollenation.net (Matt Goodall) Date: Fri Jul 18 18:42:15 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <20030718172527.GB21664@panix.com> References: <3F145E56.4040006@livinglogic.de> <20030716234324.GA17501@panix.com> <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E986.80306@pollenation.net> <20030718172527.GB21664@panix.com> Message-ID: <1058568129.21874.8.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2003-07-18 at 18:25, Aahz wrote: > On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Matt Goodall wrote: > > Aahz wrote: > >>On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > >>> > >>>All pages have to be put into a hierarchical sitemap, but this doesn't > >>>have to do anything with directory structure. > >> > >>You're technically correct, but because we've currently got the site in > >>CVS, moving things around is a strongly non-preferred option. And given > >>that we've already got the site structure in directories, it seems to me > >>that whatever navigation tool we're using ought to be automated to use > >>that structure. > > > > But surely one of the key problems with the current site is that it is > > not well structured? That makes it hard to navigate, especially for > > beginners - probably the key group to attract. In my opinion, the site > > structure has to come first. If the directory structure fits then that's > > great; if not then it needs mapping to the site structure by some other > > means. > > That's not the point. The point is that we're currently talking about a > reasonably minimal graphic redesign and a front-page redesign. If we > start talking about restructuring the content, that's a *huge* task with > lots of separate pieces. It's not just individual pages that need > moving; many pages need to be merged or split. I'd prefer to separate > the two, and that means that the graphic redesign needs to incorporate > the current structure. Fair enough, point taken. As I mentioned before, I hadn't been closely following the discussion due to lack of time. I scanned back in the archives and read the pycon summary on the wiki and from those got the impression that attracting new users that was one of the driving forces. It sounds like that _will_ happen but not necessarily just yet? - Matt -- Matt Goodall, Pollenation Internet Ltd w: http://www.pollenation.net e: matt@pollenation.net From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jul 18 19:52:41 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri Jul 18 18:52:44 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <1058568129.21874.8.camel@localhost> References: <3F16A514.8020405@livinglogic.de> <20030717133616.GE15676@panix.com> <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E986.80306@pollenation.net> <20030718172527.GB21664@panix.com> <1058568129.21874.8.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20030718225241.GA132@panix.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Matt Goodall wrote: > On Fri, 2003-07-18 at 18:25, Aahz wrote: >> >> That's not the point. The point is that we're currently talking about a >> reasonably minimal graphic redesign and a front-page redesign. If we >> start talking about restructuring the content, that's a *huge* task with >> lots of separate pieces. It's not just individual pages that need >> moving; many pages need to be merged or split. I'd prefer to separate >> the two, and that means that the graphic redesign needs to incorporate >> the current structure. > > Fair enough, point taken. As I mentioned before, I hadn't been closely > following the discussion due to lack of time. I scanned back in the > archives and read the pycon summary on the wiki and from those got the > impression that attracting new users that was one of the driving forces. > It sounds like that _will_ happen but not necessarily just yet? Correct. It's looking like we're getting some momentum toward making that happen, and I think a small-scale graphic redesign is perfect for verifying that we've got enough resources to start thinking seriously about bigger projects. The one thing I absolutely do not want to happen is get about 60% of the way through a major site restructure that stalls. I've had too many bitter experiences with that kind of thing even in the context of paid jobs where supposedly someone had a defined responsibility for it. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From matt at pollenation.net Sat Jul 19 00:10:34 2003 From: matt at pollenation.net (Matt Goodall) Date: Fri Jul 18 19:10:35 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <20030718224040.GA26865@panix.com> References: <1058557009.29067.9.camel@localhost> <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> <1058560326.29067.20.camel@localhost> <3F185EEF.20405@livinglogic.de> <20030718222503.GA21348@panix.com> <3F187647.4080303@livinglogic.de> <20030718224040.GA26865@panix.com> Message-ID: <1058569839.21874.37.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2003-07-18 at 23:40, Aahz wrote: > On Sat, Jul 19, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > > Aahz wrote: > >>On Fri, Jul 18, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > >>> > >>>I really like your design. It looks much friendlier than my version. > >> > >>Perhaps. OTOH, I do like the way you've got navigation set up in your > >>version. > > > > I mean the way it looks, or the way it works? > > The way it works can of course always be copied to Matt's design. I should clarify this, especially now Tim is on the list. The design was inspired by a previous, unused site and modified to fit python.org. Tim's the one with design skills ... not bad for someone with an engineering background ;-). My best input was along the lines of "needs framing better" and "what about a bit less colour". The rest was more like "yeuch, that's disgusting", "try again, doesn't work in Mozilla" ;-). Basically, it's Tim's work with some input from me. > Yup, but to me "works" == "friendly". ;-) (Don't forget that I'm > judging how it looks in Lynx.) I'm perfectly willing to leave purely > esthetic judgments to other people. Is it the way that Walter's design expands the navigational menu on demand that you particularly like? _Personally_, I'm not a big fan of expanding menus as it just means more clicks for me. It can also introduce a bit of guesswork for people who don't know the site unless the navigational headers are blindingly obvious. "Documentation" is fine but take "Community" for example. Would we expect a newbie to understand that properly without more context? What about when it has "mailing lists", "events", "user groups" etc right underneath it? Anyway, this sort of thing is largely subjective ... oh, and browser dependent ;-) - Matt -- Matt Goodall, Pollenation Internet Ltd w: http://www.pollenation.net e: matt@pollenation.net From walter at livinglogic.de Sat Jul 19 02:31:58 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 19:32:32 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <1058569839.21874.37.camel@localhost> References: <1058557009.29067.9.camel@localhost> <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> <1058560326.29067.20.camel@localhost> <3F185EEF.20405@livinglogic.de> <20030718222503.GA21348@panix.com> <3F187647.4080303@livinglogic.de> <20030718224040.GA26865@panix.com> <1058569839.21874.37.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <3F18836E.9060004@livinglogic.de> Matt Goodall wrote: > [...] >>Yup, but to me "works" == "friendly". ;-) (Don't forget that I'm >>judging how it looks in Lynx.) I'm perfectly willing to leave purely >>esthetic judgments to other people. > > Is it the way that Walter's design expands the navigational menu on > demand that you particularly like? > > _Personally_, I'm not a big fan of expanding menus as it just means more > clicks for me. It can also introduce a bit of guesswork for people who > don't know the site unless the navigational headers are blindingly > obvious. "Documentation" is fine but take "Community" for example. Would > we expect a newbie to understand that properly without more context? > What about when it has "mailing lists", "events", "user groups" etc > right underneath it? That could easily be changed. The sitemap walker that generates the navigation only has to be told that level 2 of the navigation has to be always expanded, even when not on the path to the current page. > Anyway, this sort of thing is largely subjective ... oh, and browser > dependent ;-) Why should this be browser dependant? It uses neither javascript nor DHTML. Bye, Walter D?rwald From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jul 18 20:35:18 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri Jul 18 19:35:22 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <1058569839.21874.37.camel@localhost> References: <1058557009.29067.9.camel@localhost> <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> <1058560326.29067.20.camel@localhost> <3F185EEF.20405@livinglogic.de> <20030718222503.GA21348@panix.com> <3F187647.4080303@livinglogic.de> <20030718224040.GA26865@panix.com> <1058569839.21874.37.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20030718233518.GA14088@panix.com> On Sat, Jul 19, 2003, Matt Goodall wrote: > On Fri, 2003-07-18 at 23:40, Aahz wrote: >> >> Yup, but to me "works" == "friendly". ;-) (Don't forget that I'm >> judging how it looks in Lynx.) I'm perfectly willing to leave purely >> esthetic judgments to other people. > > Is it the way that Walter's design expands the navigational menu on > demand that you particularly like? Partly, but not primarily. > _Personally_, I'm not a big fan of expanding menus as it just means more > clicks for me. It can also introduce a bit of guesswork for people who > don't know the site unless the navigational headers are blindingly > obvious. "Documentation" is fine but take "Community" for example. Would > we expect a newbie to understand that properly without more context? > What about when it has "mailing lists", "events", "user groups" etc > right underneath it? That's a good point. What I particularly like about Walter's design is the "breadcrumb" across the top that makes it clear where you currently are and has back-links to the pages you would click through to get directly to the current page (assuming you came from some other part of the site). Also, what I think I'd prefer to an "expanding" design is a "collapsing" design that gives a good context-sensitive menu. We've currently got a half-assed look like that; I'd like it cleaned up and generalized. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From walter at livinglogic.de Sat Jul 19 02:43:43 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 19:44:17 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] www.python.org with new design Message-ID: <3F18862F.5040902@livinglogic.de> www.python.org finally compiles: http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org-converted/ (and it's even valid XHTML 1.0! ;)) I had to make a few changes to get the .ht files to compile. It might be good to merge those back into the CVS repository, as those are all bugs in the original HTML. A diff is available at: http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org-converted/diff.txt The author, author-email and meta headers are already transformed properly. The navigation is currenty switched off (i.e. all pages claim to be the front page), but the links in the content area work. Fixing the navigation is left as an exercise for tomorrow! ;) Are there any other headers that I've missed? BTW, I discovered that there are two images missing: workshops/2000-01/tut/chilvers.jpg on workshops/2000-01/tut/bio_chilvers.ht and workshops/2000-01/tut/robindunn.gif on workshops/2000-01/tut/bio_dunn.ht Bye, Walter D?rwald From matt at pollenation.net Sat Jul 19 00:46:27 2003 From: matt at pollenation.net (Matt Goodall) Date: Fri Jul 18 19:46:28 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <20030718233518.GA14088@panix.com> References: <1058557009.29067.9.camel@localhost> <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> <1058560326.29067.20.camel@localhost> <3F185EEF.20405@livinglogic.de> <20030718222503.GA21348@panix.com> <3F187647.4080303@livinglogic.de> <20030718224040.GA26865@panix.com> <1058569839.21874.37.camel@localhost> <20030718233518.GA14088@panix.com> Message-ID: <1058571992.7139.95.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 00:35, Aahz wrote: > What I particularly like about Walter's design is > the "breadcrumb" across the top that makes it clear where you currently > are and has back-links to the pages you would click through to get > directly to the current page (assuming you came from some other part of > the site). Oops, looks like the breadcrumb trail got dropped by accident in the HTML, it was in the previous designs. We also lost the big "Home" page/section title. The links are still on the wiki but here it is again: http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python_pollen_2.gif - Matt -- Matt Goodall, Pollenation Internet Ltd w: http://www.pollenation.net e: matt@pollenation.net From walter at livinglogic.de Sat Jul 19 02:47:40 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 18 19:48:15 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <20030718233518.GA14088@panix.com> References: <1058557009.29067.9.camel@localhost> <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> <1058560326.29067.20.camel@localhost> <3F185EEF.20405@livinglogic.de> <20030718222503.GA21348@panix.com> <3F187647.4080303@livinglogic.de> <20030718224040.GA26865@panix.com> <1058569839.21874.37.camel@localhost> <20030718233518.GA14088@panix.com> Message-ID: <3F18871C.9000309@livinglogic.de> Aahz wrote: > [...] >>_Personally_, I'm not a big fan of expanding menus as it just means more >>clicks for me. It can also introduce a bit of guesswork for people who >>don't know the site unless the navigational headers are blindingly >>obvious. "Documentation" is fine but take "Community" for example. Would >>we expect a newbie to understand that properly without more context? >>What about when it has "mailing lists", "events", "user groups" etc >>right underneath it? > > That's a good point. What I particularly like about Walter's design is > the "breadcrumb" across the top that makes it clear where you currently > are and has back-links to the pages you would click through to get > directly to the current page (assuming you came from some other part of > the site). Matt's original GIF had that too. > Also, what I think I'd prefer to an "expanding" design is a > "collapsing" design that gives a good context-sensitive menu. We've > currently got a half-assed look like that; I'd like it cleaned up and > generalized. OK, then I'll try to extract the global site structure from all the links.h files and try to generate a navigation from that. Bye, Walter D?rwald From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jul 18 20:48:35 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri Jul 18 19:48:37 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <1058571992.7139.95.camel@localhost> References: <1058557009.29067.9.camel@localhost> <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> <1058560326.29067.20.camel@localhost> <3F185EEF.20405@livinglogic.de> <20030718222503.GA21348@panix.com> <3F187647.4080303@livinglogic.de> <20030718224040.GA26865@panix.com> <1058569839.21874.37.camel@localhost> <20030718233518.GA14088@panix.com> <1058571992.7139.95.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20030718234835.GA19893@panix.com> On Sat, Jul 19, 2003, Matt Goodall wrote: > On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 00:35, Aahz wrote: >> >> What I particularly like about Walter's design is >> the "breadcrumb" across the top that makes it clear where you currently >> are and has back-links to the pages you would click through to get >> directly to the current page (assuming you came from some other part of >> the site). > > Oops, looks like the breadcrumb trail got dropped by accident in the > HTML, it was in the previous designs. We also lost the big "Home" > page/section title. The links are still on the wiki but here it is > again: > > http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python_pollen_2.gif Gotcha. I've been mostly ignoring the GIF designs, 'cause I have to download them instead of just firing up Lynx. ;-) -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: No. Q: Is top-posting okay? From matt at pollenation.net Sat Jul 19 00:49:57 2003 From: matt at pollenation.net (Matt Goodall) Date: Fri Jul 18 19:49:58 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <3F18836E.9060004@livinglogic.de> References: <1058557009.29067.9.camel@localhost> <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> <1058560326.29067.20.camel@localhost> <3F185EEF.20405@livinglogic.de> <20030718222503.GA21348@panix.com> <3F187647.4080303@livinglogic.de> <20030718224040.GA26865@panix.com> <1058569839.21874.37.camel@localhost> <3F18836E.9060004@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <1058572204.2008.103.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 00:31, Walter D?rwald wrote: > Matt Goodall wrote: big rant about expanding menus. > > Anyway, this sort of thing is largely subjective ... oh, and browser > > dependent ;-) > > Why should this be browser dependant? It uses neither javascript > nor DHTML. Actually, I was referring to Aahz's comment about your design working better in lynx. If you try the two designs in lynx you'll see - our's is one big menu; your's is considerably more compact. - Matt -- Matt Goodall, Pollenation Internet Ltd w: http://www.pollenation.net e: matt@pollenation.net From tim.parkin at pollenationinternet.com Sat Jul 19 11:03:20 2003 From: tim.parkin at pollenationinternet.com (Tim Parkin) Date: Sat Jul 19 05:03:36 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <3F186078.2000207@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <008001c34dd4$9d6d3010$0a00a8c0@JASPER> Walter D?rwald Wrote >Another nit: >The corner of the blue border is part of the Python logo. This will >give problems once the navigation column has to scale. The corner of the curve isn't actually part of the logo. They are layered on top of each other, one as background and one as foreground. Check http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/logo.gif Thanks for checking it out... As far as the navigation column scaling, what situations did you have in mind where you would want it to scale? Tim Parkin From walter at livinglogic.de Sat Jul 19 14:06:24 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Sat Jul 19 07:06:59 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <008001c34dd4$9d6d3010$0a00a8c0@JASPER> References: <008001c34dd4$9d6d3010$0a00a8c0@JASPER> Message-ID: <3F192630.8000303@livinglogic.de> Tim Parkin wrote: > Walter D?rwald Wrote > >>Another nit: >>The corner of the blue border is part of the Python logo. This will >>give problems once the navigation column has to scale. > > > The corner of the curve isn't actually part of the logo. They are > layered on top of each other, one as background and one as foreground. OK, I didn't see that you're using absolute positioning. But the problems remains the same. > Check http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/logo.gif > > Thanks for checking it out... > > As far as the navigation column scaling, what situations did you have in > mind where you would want it to scale? You simply have to press CTRL-+ three times in Mozilla. Furthermore we really don't have control over the texts that will be used in the navigation column. Bye, Walter D?rwald From walter at livinglogic.de Sat Jul 19 18:30:50 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Sat Jul 19 11:31:29 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <3F18871C.9000309@livinglogic.de> References: <1058557009.29067.9.camel@localhost> <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> <1058560326.29067.20.camel@localhost> <3F185EEF.20405@livinglogic.de> <20030718222503.GA21348@panix.com> <3F187647.4080303@livinglogic.de> <20030718224040.GA26865@panix.com> <1058569839.21874.37.camel@localhost> <20030718233518.GA14088@panix.com> <3F18871C.9000309@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <3F19642A.8090606@livinglogic.de> I wrote: > Aahz wrote: > > [...] > >> Also, what I think I'd prefer to an "expanding" design is a >> "collapsing" design that gives a good context-sensitive menu. We've >> currently got a half-assed look like that; I'd like it cleaned up and >> generalized. > > > OK, then I'll try to extract the global site structure from all the > links.h files and try to generate a navigation from that. The HTML version with automatically generated navigation is finished: http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org-converted/ The conversion script extracts all links in all sidebars and tries to created a sitemap tree from that. (The generated site structure is available from http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org-converted/pages.py ) Unfortunately it seems to be pretty hopeless to go in this direction. 2/3rds of the pages don't even appear in the sidebar. Most appear in a strange spot, because they have a "shortcut link" from some page etc. A better solution might be to keep the link structure as it is and transform it to a real tree structure piece by piece. Anyway, the source is available at http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org-converted/site.tar.bz2 (23 MB) Bye, Walter D?rwald From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sat Jul 19 21:41:22 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sat Jul 19 20:41:25 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <3F19642A.8090606@livinglogic.de> References: <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> <1058560326.29067.20.camel@localhost> <3F185EEF.20405@livinglogic.de> <20030718222503.GA21348@panix.com> <3F187647.4080303@livinglogic.de> <20030718224040.GA26865@panix.com> <1058569839.21874.37.camel@localhost> <20030718233518.GA14088@panix.com> <3F18871C.9000309@livinglogic.de> <3F19642A.8090606@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <20030720004122.GA20584@panix.com> On Sat, Jul 19, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > Walter wrote: >>Aahz wrote: >>> >>>Also, what I think I'd prefer to an "expanding" design is a >>>"collapsing" design that gives a good context-sensitive menu. We've >>>currently got a half-assed look like that; I'd like it cleaned up and >>>generalized. >> >>OK, then I'll try to extract the global site structure from all the >>links.h files and try to generate a navigation from that. > > The HTML version with automatically generated navigation is finished: > http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org-converted/ Hmmm... That wasn't what I meant. In the current design, *all* the top-level structure except the top-level links vanishes when you drill down, but I don't think keeping all those links is any better. What I'd like to see when you click on, say, the PSF link would be something like Special topics Popular links PSF Home About the PSF Mission statement Donations Membership roster Public records Bylaws Press releases See also Exits That's not something we can do easily right now, since it requires some of that major restructure I'm trying to avoid, but I'd like that capability built in, and I think we can probably do at least some of it without the full restructure. I'm out of town Sun through Thurs with limited Net access, so don't expect much from me for a week. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects with useful practice. --Aahz From matt at pollenation.net Mon Jul 21 13:45:55 2003 From: matt at pollenation.net (Matt Goodall) Date: Mon Jul 21 07:35:40 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Beginners thoughts Message-ID: <3F1BD273.6000906@pollenation.net> I asked my sister to have a quick look at the current site. Liz is actually a linguist but has some interest in techie things and computers so I thought she would make a good guineapig. She had heard that Python was a programming language but that's about all; she doesn't know any other programming languages. I'm afraid the transcript is an IM log and I don't have time to clean it up any more to make it easier to read. Consider yourself lucky I didn't leave the general chat in there ;-). http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/pydotorg-redesign/conv.html The obvious points to come out of it were: * Content pretty good in general, just not well organised. * More guidance (literally) for beginners. * Home page too clutterd (Liz couldn't even be bothered to read down to the mention of the tutorial!) * Navigation needs to be more obvious. I would add that it needs to be consistent across the whole site too. * Push the background of a "learning language" for beginners. * Brief, side by side code comparison useful even for beginners. They might not have a clue what any of the code means so Python's clean design, layout and simplicity could make it the obvious choice. I don't think there's anything too surprising in there but I hope it was useful anyway. By the way, the only reasons I asked specifically about the Pollenation design was because I knew the URL and it has a rearranged menu to look at. Hope this is of interest. Cheers, Matt -- Matt Goodall, Pollenation Internet Ltd w: http://www.pollenationinternet.com e: matt@pollenation.net From sholden at holdenweb.com Mon Jul 21 09:05:28 2003 From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Mon Jul 21 08:11:35 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Beginners thoughts In-Reply-To: <3F1BD273.6000906@pollenation.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: pydotorg-redesign-bounces+sholden=holdenweb.com@python.org > [mailto:pydotorg-redesign-bounces+sholden=holdenweb.com@python.org]On > Behalf Of Matt Goodall > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 7:46 AM > To: pydotorg-redesign@python.org > Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Beginners thoughts > > > I asked my sister to have a quick look at the current site. Liz is > actually a linguist but has some interest in techie things > and computers > so I thought she would make a good guineapig. She had heard > that Python > was a programming language but that's about all; she doesn't know any > other programming languages. > > I'm afraid the transcript is an IM log and I don't have time > to clean it > up any more to make it easier to read. Consider yourself > lucky I didn't > leave the general chat in there ;-). > > > http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/pydotorg-redesign/conv.html > > The obvious points to come out of it were: > > * Content pretty good in general, just not well organised. > * More guidance (literally) for beginners. > * Home page too clutterd (Liz couldn't even be bothered > to read down > to the mention of the tutorial!) > * Navigation needs to be more obvious. I would add that > it needs to > be consistent across the whole site too. > * Push the background of a "learning language" for beginners. > * Brief, side by side code comparison useful even for beginners. > They might not have a clue what any of the code means > so Python's > clean design, layout and simplicity could make it the > obvious choice. > > I don't think there's anything too surprising in there but I > hope it was > useful anyway. > > By the way, the only reasons I asked specifically about the > Pollenation > design was because I knew the URL and it has a rearranged > menu to look at. > > Hope this is of interest. > Matt: This is good information on usability (or possibly the lack of it), and I'm sure it will help. The log is quite readable, and your summary seems fair. Some random thoughts of my own as a result: To my mind the most important point is that we should definitely be targetting newcomers to the language, given that people who are already familiar with the site don't need so much handholding, and that existing Python users could be expected to have a higher level of motivation to find what they want! Lots of pointers to good stuff that would be immediately useful would be helpful. "Welcoming" would be a good adjective to target for the home page, and after that the most significant change would be stylistic and navigational consistency. I've experimented in the past with expanding/tree-like navigation features, and I'm now much more in favor of a fixed set of top-level navigations elements, with variable second-level links in a separate (though hopefully related) position on the page. Also, shouldn't we have links somewhere to the many significant applications written in Python? The Vaults of Parnassus are definitely geek-level, so while they're useful to a net-head they are no use to a beginner. One possible qualification for being listed in this link-set would be the presence of an installer, so people could run them without even having loaded Python. It might be a good idea to collect a few more impressions like your sister's... regards -- Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/ Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/ > From matt at pollenation.net Mon Jul 21 14:55:59 2003 From: matt at pollenation.net (Matt Goodall) Date: Mon Jul 21 08:45:44 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Beginners thoughts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F1BE2DF.3040806@pollenation.net> Steve Holden wrote: >To my mind the most important point is that we should definitely be >targetting newcomers to the language, given that people who are already >familiar with the site don't need so much handholding, and that existing >Python users could be expected to have a higher level of motivation to >find what they want! > Absolutely! I don't think for a second that Steve is implying the following but I don't see why the site should be any more difficult for experienced users anyway. Effective navigation combined with a good search facility is the key. >Lots of pointers to good stuff that would be immediately useful would be helpful. > Yes, but there's a fine line between providing enough information and overwhelming people with too much. I would point to the Newbies page as a possible example of this - lots of great links but how is a newbie supposed to know which one or ones to actually read? Highlighting two or three *great* tutorials and listing the rest nearby would probably be better. Having said that, Liz liked having lots of links to tutorials. >I've experimented in the past with expanding/tree-like navigation >features, and I'm now much more in favor of a fixed set of top-level >navigations elements, with variable second-level links in a separate >(though hopefully related) position on the page. > Yep, I'm with you on that Steve. I'm not all that keen on the expanding menu mockup that Tim put together ... sorry Tim ;-). Cheers, Matt -- Matt Goodall, Pollenation Internet Ltd w: http://www.pollenationinternet.com e: matt@pollenation.net From tim.parkin at pollenationinternet.com Mon Jul 21 14:46:20 2003 From: tim.parkin at pollenationinternet.com (Tim Parkin) Date: Mon Jul 21 08:46:32 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Beginners thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004201c34f86$1c153630$0a00a8c0@JASPER> Hi, Just to add to Matt's conversation, my experience has been in a few other langauges (FORTRAN, C, Perl, PHP), I have used Python within a Zope project but only in the last few weeks have I used Python in 'anger', due mostly to the Matt's envangelsim. I made a few notes about what I personally think is needed and put them on our assets page. Hope they help in some way. http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/redesign-notes.txt Tim Parkin From walter at livinglogic.de Mon Jul 21 19:30:46 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Mon Jul 21 12:31:22 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <20030720004122.GA20584@panix.com> References: <3F184F53.3080205@livinglogic.de> <1058560326.29067.20.camel@localhost> <3F185EEF.20405@livinglogic.de> <20030718222503.GA21348@panix.com> <3F187647.4080303@livinglogic.de> <20030718224040.GA26865@panix.com> <1058569839.21874.37.camel@localhost> <20030718233518.GA14088@panix.com> <3F18871C.9000309@livinglogic.de> <3F19642A.8090606@livinglogic.de> <20030720004122.GA20584@panix.com> Message-ID: <3F1C1536.6080701@livinglogic.de> Aahz wrote: > On Sat, Jul 19, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > >>Walter wrote: >> >>>Aahz wrote: >>> >>>>Also, what I think I'd prefer to an "expanding" design is a >>>>"collapsing" design that gives a good context-sensitive menu. We've >>>>currently got a half-assed look like that; I'd like it cleaned up and >>>>generalized. >>> >>>OK, then I'll try to extract the global site structure from all the >>>links.h files and try to generate a navigation from that. >> >>The HTML version with automatically generated navigation is finished: >>http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org-converted/ > > > Hmmm... That wasn't what I meant. In the current design, *all* the > top-level structure except the top-level links vanishes when you drill > down, but I don't think keeping all those links is any better. Unfortunately *all* links on the frontpage are in the other-links section in index.ht. If we add those to the navigation, we get what I've generated. If the links for other-links are only one the page itself, we get what we have now. > What I'd > like to see when you click on, say, the PSF link would be something like > > Special topics > Popular links > PSF Home > About the PSF > Mission statement > Donations > Membership roster > Public records > Bylaws > Press releases > See also > Exits Exactly, so we should move those links that should always be visible into a links.ht on the top level. That would at least give us a resonable definition of the site structure, although ht2html can't cope with it. > That's not something we can do easily right now, since it requires some > of that major restructure I'm trying to avoid, but I'd like that > capability built in, and I think we can probably do at least some of it > without the full restructure. > > I'm out of town Sun through Thurs with limited Net access, so don't > expect much from me for a week. OK. Bye, Walter D?rwald From sholden at holdenweb.com Mon Jul 21 14:25:03 2003 From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Mon Jul 21 13:30:07 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design In-Reply-To: <3F1C1536.6080701@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org > [mailto:pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org]On Behalf Of > Walter D?rwald > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 12:31 PM > To: Aahz > Cc: pydotorg-redesign@python.org > Subject: Re: [Pydotorg-redesign] HTML version of design > > > Aahz wrote: > > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > > > >>Walter wrote: > >> > >>>Aahz wrote: > >>> > >>>>Also, what I think I'd prefer to an "expanding" design is a > >>>>"collapsing" design that gives a good context-sensitive > menu. We've > >>>>currently got a half-assed look like that; I'd like it > cleaned up and > >>>>generalized. > >>> > >>>OK, then I'll try to extract the global site structure from all the > >>>links.h files and try to generate a navigation from that. > >> > >>The HTML version with automatically generated navigation is > finished: > >>http://styx.livinglogic.de/~walter/www.python.org-converted/ > > > > > > Hmmm... That wasn't what I meant. In the current design, *all* the > > top-level structure except the top-level links vanishes > when you drill > > down, but I don't think keeping all those links is any better. > > Unfortunately *all* links on the frontpage are in the other-links > section in index.ht. If we add those to the navigation, we get what > I've generated. If the links for other-links are only one the page > itself, we get what we have now. > For what it's worth, I still don't think that the left-hand nav menu should change for different pages on the site, but rather that there should be a second-level menu, which varies according to which second-level directory you view. Note that the concept of levels in the web information need not (but can) be mapped on to the virtual directory structure used to implement the web. As long as the make system knows whether it's making a first-level or a second-level page, things should work. It will probably be less complex in the long run to map the site structure with a corresponding directory structure, but then we might need to consider all the links we'd break... > > What I'd > > like to see when you click on, say, the PSF link would be > something like > > > > Special topics > > Popular links > > PSF Home > > About the PSF > > Mission statement > > Donations > > Membership roster > > Public records > > Bylaws > > Press releases > > See also > > Exits > > Exactly, so we should move those links that should always be visible > into a links.ht on the top level. That would at least give us a > resonable definition of the site structure, although ht2html can't > cope with it. > I'd rather see Special topics Popular links PSF Home (possibly highlighted) See also Exits With a second-level menu showing About the PSF Mission statement . . . Bylaws Press Releases > > That's not something we can do easily right now, since it > requires some > > of that major restructure I'm trying to avoid, but I'd like that > > capability built in, and I think we can probably do at > least some of it > > without the full restructure. > > Indeed, the major problem seems to be: what's practical with a minimum of restructuring. That doesn't mean we can't be talking about what happens after that, of course, but we need to stay a little focused to get anything at all done. regards -- Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/ Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/ From altis at semi-retired.com Mon Jul 21 12:51:54 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Mon Jul 21 14:45:28 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] irc for redesign? In-Reply-To: <16150.62037.285579.415025@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: We're making good progress on the mailing list, so I'm not sure an IRC session is still needed to get through the issues quickly, but I'll still start a session tonight at 6 pm EST, irc.freenode.net, channel pydotorg-redesign. ka > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred L. Drake, Jr. [mailto:fdrake@acm.org] > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 12:01 PM > To: Kevin Altis > Cc: pydotorg-redesign@python.org > Subject: RE: [Pydotorg-redesign] irc for redesign? > > > > Kevin Altis writes: > > How about Monday at 6 pm EST, irc.freenode.net, channel > pydotorg-redesign. > > > > I don't want to do something on Friday night and delaying until Monday > > should give anyone that wants to attend time to work on > additional home page > > mockups and issues. Hopefully, it won't just be amk, myself, > and Steve :) > > I should be able to do this if you send a reminder to the list half an > hour beforehand. > > Not sure how helpful I'll be, though. > > > -Fred > > -- > Fred L. Drake, Jr. > PythonLabs at Zope Corporation > From fdrake at acm.org Mon Jul 21 16:11:56 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Mon Jul 21 15:12:34 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <20030718211529.GA24866@nyman.amk.ca> References: <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E986.80306@pollenation.net> <20030718172527.GB21664@panix.com> <16152.12339.266823.82902@grendel.zope.com> <20030718174542.GB25182@panix.com> <16152.21418.442634.401195@grendel.zope.com> <20030718211529.GA24866@nyman.amk.ca> Message-ID: <16156.15100.57156.236452@grendel.zope.com> A.M. Kuchling writes: > Would you want some sort of generalized redirect facility? Say, so > that going to www.python.org/redirect/amk goes to my home page, > /redirect/cookbook goes to the Python cookbook, etc? Or would we want > something in the toolchain, so that \namedurl{cookbook} is magically > replaced by the correct URL? If we have the former, we can build the later. ;-) The former would allow us to avoid broken links in released versions of the documentation, since a new request and redirect could be performed on the fly. This is a specific goal; some of the links in "See also" references have changed, and it would be really nice if those continue to work -- someone moving the definition of the SHA algorithm shouldn't break the link from someone's installed documentation. On the other hand, it's nice to actually resolve the link and add it as a footnote for the PDF documentation. (It can still link through the redirect.) -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From fdrake at acm.org Mon Jul 21 16:58:22 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Mon Jul 21 15:59:00 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Graphic redesign In-Reply-To: <20030718211529.GA24866@nyman.amk.ca> References: <16150.46845.674202.163813@grendel.zope.com> <3F171B88.7090501@livinglogic.de> <20030717232203.GB2392@panix.com> <3F17C91C.30102@livinglogic.de> <20030718115804.GA22329@panix.com> <3F17E986.80306@pollenation.net> <20030718172527.GB21664@panix.com> <16152.12339.266823.82902@grendel.zope.com> <20030718174542.GB25182@panix.com> <16152.21418.442634.401195@grendel.zope.com> <20030718211529.GA24866@nyman.amk.ca> Message-ID: <16156.17886.126352.925086@grendel.zope.com> A.M. Kuchling writes: > A simple OPML (XML-based, naturally) file could easily be turned into > HTML, and the original might be useful for other purposes. By OPML, do you mean the Outline Processor Markup Language (http://www.opml.org/), or something else? I suppose that OPML could be used, though it may be a bit of a forced fit. It might be nice to allow more content for descriptions than just an attribute value, since it should be possible for it to be marked up internally with (at least) inline HTML elements. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From amk at amk.ca Wed Jul 23 10:29:46 2003 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Wed Jul 23 09:30:21 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Outcome of IRC? Message-ID: I missed the IRC chat on Monday (the SO wanted to go out for dinner). Anyone got a transcript or notes? What's the next step on the redesign trail? Do we need to settle on one of the candidate designs as a starting point for further experimentation? --amk From tim.parkin at pollenationinternet.com Wed Jul 23 16:52:33 2003 From: tim.parkin at pollenationinternet.com (Tim Parkin) Date: Wed Jul 23 10:52:37 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Outcome of IRC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003e01c3512a$0fa87380$0a00a8c0@JASPER> Amk said >I missed the IRC chat on Monday (the SO wanted to go out for dinner). >Anyone got a transcript or notes? What's the next step on the redesign >trail? Do we need to settle on one of the candidate designs as a >starting point for further experimentation? Hi, I forget to tell everyone that : 1) The meeting went ahead as planned and 2) A transcript is available - on the wiki at http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PydotorgRedesign - or directly at = html http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/pydotorg-redesign/irclog210703. html = raw http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/pydotorg-redesign/irclog210703. txt It was suggested that most of the ideas get placed on the wiki so it may be a good idea for people to subscribe to the relevant pages. Tim From todd at slack.net Wed Jul 23 13:40:57 2003 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Wed Jul 23 12:41:01 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question Message-ID: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> Hello, I've been quietly observing here, as I arrived late, but I do have a quick question at the moment: I had assumed (yes I know the problems with that ;-) that the python logo was sort of a 'sacred cow', and not a candidate for modification. I see now someone asked about this on c.l.py and figured I'd ask you guys explicitly - is this the case? While I actually like the logo, it is (unsurprisingly) very consistent with Just van Rossum's company "house style", (http://www.letterror.com/), which while well-done, I think it's safe to say it's not really something to make a business case to a CTO with. In short, I don't think it's "professional" or corporate-looking enough. I know, I know, python is fun, and we don't want to cower before the corporate titans, but I feel improving this and the general feel of the site would be a great help overall for the language. While some developers may cringe at a "corporatized" look, I think they'll deal with it and put up with it much more readily than a decision-making CTO will tolerate a "playful, non-serious" looking site. And, if done well, we can retain most of the flavor, while "buttoning up" a bit for the suits. Thoughts? Maybe this is an area for longer-term discussion/development, along with the "some day" re-IA? From what I've followed so far this current push is more along the lines of a refresh, and streamlining for content updates(?) -- ___________________________ toddgrimason*todd@slack.net From amk at amk.ca Wed Jul 23 14:09:36 2003 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:10:35 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:40:57 -0400, Todd Grimason wrote: > From what I've followed so far this current push is more along the lines > of a refresh, and streamlining for content updates(?) I don't know about other people, but my current goals are: * Fix the egregiously bad/outdated parts (the FAQ) * Reduce some of the duplication (Summary vs. Intros, Events.html vs /conferences/) * Improve usability from the standpoint of very inexperienced people who get directed to python.org. (The site is probably OK for experienced users.) * Improve usability of the exceedingly busy top page. (If a new graphic design is necessary to get that done, so be it.) It would be really nice to have most of these fixes in place for Python 2.3final, which is a week away, and that's what I'm working toward. --amk From fdrake at acm.org Wed Jul 23 14:27:10 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:27:47 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> Message-ID: <16158.50542.229842.315727@grendel.zope.com> Todd Grimason writes: > I had assumed (yes I know the problems with that ;-) that the > python logo was sort of a 'sacred cow', and not a candidate for > modification. I see now someone asked about this on c.l.py and > figured I'd ask you guys explicitly - is this the case? I don't think it's the case. > While some developers may cringe at a "corporatized" look, I think > they'll deal with it and put up with it much more readily than a > decision-making CTO will tolerate a "playful, non-serious" looking > site. And, if done well, we can retain most of the flavor, while > "buttoning up" a bit for the suits. Do you really think the logo itself is a problem, or the non-"slick" presentation of the site itself? I suspect the later has much more to do with any perceived non-professionalism. > Thoughts? Maybe this is an area for longer-term > discussion/development, along with the "some day" re-IA? From what > I've followed so far this current push is more along the lines of a > refresh, and streamlining for content updates(?) The current push is really more about the general presentation of the site, and the site organization. Making content management easier is also important, but I don't think that's really the task for this group (witness the name of the list), though ideas are always welcome. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From todd at slack.net Wed Jul 23 14:53:42 2003 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:53:43 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: ; from amk@amk.ca on Wed, Jul 23, 2003 at 01:09:36PM -0400 References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> Message-ID: <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> * A.M. Kuchling [2003-07-23 13:11]: > I don't know about other people, but my current goals are: * Fix the > egregiously bad/outdated parts (the FAQ) > * Reduce some of the duplication (Summary vs. Intros, Events.html vs > /conferences/) > * Improve usability from the standpoint of very inexperienced people who > get directed to python.org. (The site is probably OK for experienced > users.) > * Improve usability of the exceedingly busy top page. (If a new graphic > design is necessary to get that done, so be it.) > > It would be really nice to have most of these fixes in place for Python > 2.3final, > which is a week away, and that's what I'm working toward. > OK, I'm slowly catching up then... would my inquiry regarding the logo perhaps be more appropriate for the marketing-python list? I don't want to hold anything up, and understand the importance of having the changes done by 2.3final. I'll go over the archives and see what the constraints are and whether I can be any help with the immediate goals. -Todd -- ___________________________ toddgrimason*todd@slack.net From skip at pobox.com Wed Jul 23 14:13:31 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Wed Jul 23 14:13:45 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> Message-ID: <16158.53323.207660.828948@montanaro.dyndns.org> amk> * Fix the egregiously bad/outdated parts (the FAQ) I'm happy to help here. (I have no real design sense, so wouldn't be a lot of help with the site redesign.) Let me know where you'd like me to focus. It seems to me that getting an initial docutils/plain text version checked in as faq2.txt would be a decent start. That would allow multiple people to tackle different parts of the faq without any great fear of stepping on one anothers' toes. A simple 'lynx -dump' of the whole faq with a few simple tweaks might be a sufficient starting point. Skip From todd at slack.net Wed Jul 23 16:12:10 2003 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Wed Jul 23 15:12:11 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net>; from todd@slack.net on Wed, Jul 23, 2003 at 01:53:42PM -0400 References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> Message-ID: <20030723151210.A7513@crank.slack.net> Uh-oh I must have been more confusing than usual - I didn't meant to imply any of the proposed designs were not good, I was specifically wondering about the logo itself, and whether it was set in stone forever. I think using one of the new designs would be a great start, I suppose I'm thinking (too)big-picture here... and of some theoretical future big overhaul... I will re-visit the offerings up so far and put in my 2 cents if it seems it might help in any way. -Todd * Todd Grimason [2003-07-23 13:53]: > > * A.M. Kuchling [2003-07-23 13:11]: > > I don't know about other people, but my current goals are: * Fix the > > egregiously bad/outdated parts (the FAQ) > > * Reduce some of the duplication (Summary vs. Intros, Events.html vs > > /conferences/) > > * Improve usability from the standpoint of very inexperienced people who > > get directed to python.org. (The site is probably OK for experienced > > users.) > > * Improve usability of the exceedingly busy top page. (If a new graphic > > design is necessary to get that done, so be it.) > > > > It would be really nice to have most of these fixes in place for Python > > 2.3final, > > which is a week away, and that's what I'm working toward. > > > > OK, I'm slowly catching up then... would my inquiry regarding the logo perhaps be more appropriate for the marketing-python list? > > I don't want to hold anything up, and understand the importance of having the changes done by 2.3final. > > I'll go over the archives and see what the constraints are and whether I can be any help with the immediate goals. > > -Todd > > > -- > > ___________________________ > toddgrimason*todd@slack.net > > -- ___________________________ toddgrimason*todd@slack.net From amk at amk.ca Wed Jul 23 16:13:08 2003 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Wed Jul 23 15:13:51 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:53:42 -0400, Todd Grimason wrote: > OK, I'm slowly catching up then... would my inquiry regarding the logo > perhaps be more appropriate for the marketing-python list? I don't know, because it's unclear who gets to choose the logo for python.org. Guido? Just? The PSF board? --amk From todd at slack.net Wed Jul 23 16:28:37 2003 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Wed Jul 23 15:28:37 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <004901c3514e$c6c53de0$0a00a8c0@JASPER>; from tim.parkin@pollenationinternet.com on Wed, Jul 23, 2003 at 08:15:17PM +0100 References: <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> <004901c3514e$c6c53de0$0a00a8c0@JASPER> Message-ID: <20030723152837.B7513@crank.slack.net> Hiya, I had seen a previous one, but not the latest - I do think #2 with the logo a bit "cleaned up" looks much better. The whole things looks really good. One thing I might suggest is perhaps doing a white on dark grey for the section headings on the left nav? Or something along those lines to give each heading a bit more prominence. Sort of break up that long wall of text down the left. I'm also a big fan of CSS rollover (color/link/bg) type things too, as they're backwards-compatible and add minimal weight while being very useful. Though I'm guessing you're frying bigger fish at the moment... I'm viewing it on Safari/OS X, and the subsections on the left are a bit too tiny, but otherwise it's holding up fine. Nice job! * Tim Parkin [2003-07-23 15:15]: > Hi Todd, > > I'm not sure if you've seen the redesigns on the Python wiki. > Particularly > > http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index.html > > And > > http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded.html > > These may look a little strange depending on which browser you are using > (not completely cross browser tested yet) > > Heres a couple of screenshots > > http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/design1.gif > http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/design2.gif > > You'll see design2 has a 'cleaned' logo. > > Is this the more 'professional' feel you were thinking off? > > We're pushing towards this as a consolidated feel for the site, you can > check out the IRC log. You may already have a link to it) it's on > http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PydotorgRedesign if you don't. > > Tim > > ---------------------------------------------- > Tim Parkin > Managing Director > Pollenation Internet Ltd > www.pollenation.net > m : 07980 59 47 68 > t : 01132 25 25 00 > > -----Original Message----- > From: pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org > [mailto:pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org] On Behalf Of Todd Grimason > Sent: 23 July 2003 18:54 > To: A.M. Kuchling > Cc: pydotorg-redesign@python.org > Subject: Re: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question > > > > * A.M. Kuchling [2003-07-23 13:11]: > > I don't know about other people, but my current goals are: * Fix the > > egregiously bad/outdated parts (the FAQ) > > * Reduce some of the duplication (Summary vs. Intros, Events.html vs > > /conferences/) > > * Improve usability from the standpoint of very inexperienced people > who > > get directed to python.org. (The site is probably OK for experienced > > users.) > > * Improve usability of the exceedingly busy top page. (If a new > graphic > > design is necessary to get that done, so be it.) > > > > It would be really nice to have most of these fixes in place for > Python > > 2.3final, > > which is a week away, and that's what I'm working toward. > > > > OK, I'm slowly catching up then... would my inquiry regarding the logo > perhaps be more appropriate for the marketing-python list? > > I don't want to hold anything up, and understand the importance of > having the changes done by 2.3final. > > I'll go over the archives and see what the constraints are and whether I > can be any help with the immediate goals. > > -Todd > > > -- > > ___________________________ > toddgrimason*todd@slack.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pydotorg-redesign mailing list > Pydotorg-redesign@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-redesign > > -- ___________________________ toddgrimason*todd@slack.net From todd at slack.net Wed Jul 23 16:31:04 2003 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Wed Jul 23 15:31:04 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: ; from amk@amk.ca on Wed, Jul 23, 2003 at 03:13:08PM -0400 References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> Message-ID: <20030723153104.C7513@crank.slack.net> * A.M. Kuchling [2003-07-23 15:13]: > On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:53:42 -0400, Todd Grimason wrote: > > OK, I'm slowly catching up then... would my inquiry regarding the logo > > perhaps be more appropriate for the marketing-python list? > > I don't know, because it's unclear who gets to choose the logo for > python.org. > Guido? Just? The PSF board? Ah, I thought that might be up in the air. I think Tim's subtly cleaned-up version looks really good, while keeping 98% of the flavor of the original. (design #2) http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded.html > > --amk > > _______________________________________________ > Pydotorg-redesign mailing list > Pydotorg-redesign@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-redesign -- ___________________________ toddgrimason*todd@slack.net From fdrake at acm.org Wed Jul 23 16:52:56 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Wed Jul 23 15:53:34 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <20030723151210.A7513@crank.slack.net> References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723151210.A7513@crank.slack.net> Message-ID: <16158.59288.437198.187484@grendel.zope.com> Todd Grimason writes: > Uh-oh I must have been more confusing than usual - I didn't meant > to imply any of the proposed designs were not good, I was > specifically wondering about the logo itself, and whether it was > set in stone forever. I still don't think it is, and this is a good place where parallelism can be used to an advantage. So if the logo is what you want to work on, go for it! The worst that can happen is that it doesn't get used. > I think using one of the new designs would be a great start, I > suppose I'm thinking (too)big-picture here... and of some > theoretical future big overhaul... Keep thinking of the big picture. That's a good thing. All overhauls are bigger than doing nothing, and most overhauls that actually happen -- and don't get thrown out -- are smaller than they were planned to be. But big-picture thinking is needed on the site organization, and the individuals steps made along the way, including the presentational design for the site, will make the final effect much bigger than any single overhaul could hope to achieve successfully. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From matt at pollenation.net Thu Jul 24 13:25:22 2003 From: matt at pollenation.net (Matt Goodall) Date: Thu Jul 24 07:15:12 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Phased development Message-ID: <3F1FC222.4010604@pollenation.net> Hi all, I just updated the wiki page to add some idea about possible phases for the redesign. I copy and pasted amk's list from his recent email as items for the current phase and quickly noted a few of the ideas for future phases (aka phase 2). Could everyone ammend the page as necessary so we all have a better idea of what will/might be happening and when. I think that would make it much easier for us to keep track of what's going on, but it's especially useful for people just joining the list. By the way, should this list be subscribed for wiki notifications? Cheers, Matt -- Matt Goodall, Pollenation Internet Ltd w: http://www.pollenationinternet.com e: matt@pollenation.net From walter at livinglogic.de Thu Jul 24 21:49:31 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Thu Jul 24 14:50:06 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <20030723153104.C7513@crank.slack.net> References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723153104.C7513@crank.slack.net> Message-ID: <3F202A3B.8040303@livinglogic.de> Todd Grimason wrote: > [...] > Ah, I thought that might be up in the air. I think Tim's subtly cleaned-up > version looks really good, while keeping 98% of the flavor of the > original. (design #2) > > http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded.html Wow! I really like this new version now that it scales properly. So my vote goes the Tim's design. Bye, Walter D?rwald From walter at livinglogic.de Thu Jul 24 21:52:05 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Thu Jul 24 14:52:39 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <16158.59288.437198.187484@grendel.zope.com> References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723151210.A7513@crank.slack.net> <16158.59288.437198.187484@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <3F202AD5.7050209@livinglogic.de> Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: > [...] > Keep thinking of the big picture. That's a good thing. All overhauls > are bigger than doing nothing, and most overhauls that actually happen > -- and don't get thrown out -- are smaller than they were planned to > be. But big-picture thinking is needed on the site organization, and > the individuals steps made along the way, including the presentational > design for the site, will make the final effect much bigger than any > single overhaul could hope to achieve successfully. What I would really like to see is a www.python.org that is valid XHTML instead of the HTML we have now. Any change that we could work on that? Bye, Walter D?rwald From fdrake at acm.org Thu Jul 24 16:00:00 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Thu Jul 24 15:00:44 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <3F202AD5.7050209@livinglogic.de> References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723151210.A7513@crank.slack.net> <16158.59288.437198.187484@grendel.zope.com> <3F202AD5.7050209@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <16160.11440.44419.19749@grendel.zope.com> Walter D?rwald writes: > What I would really like to see is a www.python.org that is valid > XHTML instead of the HTML we have now. Any change that we could work > on that? Lots of us would like to see that, I think. We could certainly make sure the templates use XHTML properly; the "hard" part is the content currently in .ht files. Those need to be checked and fixed, and there are many that will need a fair bit of work (I'm sure HTML Tidy could be leveraged to help). That's also something that can be worked on incrementally by anyone with CVS access to the content. I don't remember if that includes you; if not, we can probably arrange it to happen. ;-) -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From fdrake at acm.org Thu Jul 24 16:52:49 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Thu Jul 24 15:53:34 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Phased development In-Reply-To: <3F1FC222.4010604@pollenation.net> References: <3F1FC222.4010604@pollenation.net> Message-ID: <16160.14609.394320.157711@grendel.zope.com> Matt Goodall writes: > I just updated the wiki page to add some idea about possible phases for > the redesign. I copy and pasted amk's list from his recent email as > items for the current phase and quickly noted a few of the ideas for > future phases (aka phase 2). Thanks! > By the way, should this list be subscribed for wiki notifications? I don't think so. Everyone can decide for themselves what level of email tolerance they have and whether they need the additional volume. Wiki-generated email can be very helpful to get, but more to know that pages have been updated, and many people don't want constant updates. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From tim.parkin at pollenationinternet.com Thu Jul 24 23:56:23 2003 From: tim.parkin at pollenationinternet.com (Tim Parkin) Date: Thu Jul 24 17:56:31 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <3F202AD5.7050209@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <000c01c3522e$72c39760$0a00a8c0@JASPER> Wlater D?rwald wrote >What I would really like to see is a www.python.org that is valid >XHTML instead of the HTML we have now. Any change that we could work >on that? Our second design needs quite a few tweaks at the moment (mostly for cross browser compatibility) Once the design works, it will be simple to make XHTML 1.0 Transitional (seems pointless going any Further). Most of the content will only need simple transformation to become compliant. The remainder can be finalised by hand. It's our intention to parse the content from the website into an form in which the directory structure is irrelevant (unique id's for navigation). Once this is done, rearrangment should be fairly straightforward. Obviously I'm not going to get this done for tomorrow morning and I'm washing my hair at the weekend so some of this will have to wait ;-) Any content managed site will have problems with validation unless we can repurpose the content as Structured text (reStructured text?). I don't know what people feel about this but IMO it would be very nice and is our preferred solution for content management system where knowledge needs persistence. Whilst I am messing about with design#2, it would be nice to garner some comments so that any large changes can be included whilst the cross browser functionality is included. A final question is about talking about the project outside of this mailing list/wiki. Although I can achieve a lot regarding cross browser css, there are a lot of people I know out there whose resources I would like to call on if I hit any large stumbling blocks. I suppose the answer I'm looking for fitsinto either ('Tell as many people as you want', 'please keep it to a minimum number', 'we'd like to restrict it to people who have are involved with Python via mailing lists').I had in mind maybe 3 or 4 people to contact if needs be. Finally, how do people feel about using Zope as the cms (possibly Zope 3 if it appears stable soon). Zope seems to offer 80% of what we needed an we can develop the rest . Obviously this would need substantial cacheing (perhaps even serve the site up as html still but use Zope as a static publishing system and admin interface?). Tim Parkin From fdrake at acm.org Thu Jul 24 23:36:10 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Thu Jul 24 22:38:11 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <000c01c3522e$72c39760$0a00a8c0@JASPER> References: <3F202AD5.7050209@livinglogic.de> <000c01c3522e$72c39760$0a00a8c0@JASPER> Message-ID: <16160.38810.984770.515730@grendel.zope.com> Tim Parkin writes: > Most of the content will only need simple transformation to become > compliant. The remainder can be finalised by hand. It's our intention to > parse the content from the website into an form in which the directory > structure is irrelevant (unique id's for navigation). Once this is done, This seems very painful to work with from a maintenance perspective. How do you expect people to maintain site content? Do we want to bind up a change to the site's graphical design with a change in the approach to maintenance? I can see changing/replacing the specific tools used, but changing approaches seems out of scope at this point. (This is not to say that there shouldn't be a change in approach to content management, or that I'd be opposed to a change. I am opposed to conflating the issues of graphic design with a change in content management tools.) > Any content managed site will have problems with validation unless we > can repurpose the content as Structured text (reStructured text?). I That's a tool issue; we can work around it in many ways. We could definately start working on support reStructuredText in HT2HTML, or in some new tool. I'd love to be able to use reStructuredText to create and edit content. > don't know what people feel about this but IMO it would be very nice and > is our preferred solution for content management system where knowledge > needs persistence. Beats editing HTML! Some documents based on more structured information would need to be generated from some other representation, but ideally that should feed rather than bypass whatever general tools are being used (e.g., they should generate .ht or reStructuredText documnets wherever possible). ... > A final question is about talking about the project outside of this > mailing list/wiki. Although I can achieve a lot regarding cross browser > css, there are a lot of people I know out there whose resources I would > like to call on if I hit any large stumbling blocks. I suppose the > answer I'm looking for fitsinto either ('Tell as many people as you > want', 'please keep it to a minimum number', 'we'd like to restrict it > to people who have are involved with Python via mailing lists').I had in > mind maybe 3 or 4 people to contact if needs be. I don't see why there'd be any problems with asking for assistance or feedback from a handful of people. I don't know of any reason for secrecy, though it is easier to get things done when there aren't too many sources of random feedback and vague new requirements. I'd expect that we'd want to go from a handful of pages to a larger portion of the site built using some tool support without involving too many people, and then bring in more to finesse the design and test for cross-browser issues. Once we can present a large portion of the site using the new design, we should consider presenting a "demo" site to the community for feedback and testing. > Finally, how do people feel about using Zope as the cms (possibly Zope 3 > if it appears stable soon). Zope seems to offer 80% of what we needed an > we can develop the rest . Obviously this would need substantial cacheing > (perhaps even serve the site up as html still but use Zope as a static > publishing system and admin interface?). Zope 3 isn't going to be sufficiently stable real soon; there are still some very fundamental questions being asked among the developers. We don't want to use Zope 2, as that will see less new development in a couple of years, though we expect to maintain it for quite some time. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From tim.parkin at pollenationinternet.com Fri Jul 25 09:10:50 2003 From: tim.parkin at pollenationinternet.com (Tim Parkin) Date: Fri Jul 25 03:11:02 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <16160.38810.984770.515730@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <001f01c3527b$e7c1f910$0a00a8c0@JASPER> >Tim Parkin writes: > > Most of the content will only need simple transformation to become > > compliant. The remainder can be finalised by hand. It's our intention to > > parse the content from the website into an form in which the directory > > structure is irrelevant (unique id's for navigation). Once this is done, > >This seems very painful to work with from a maintenance perspective. >How do you expect people to maintain site content? > >Do we want to bind up a change to the site's graphical design with a >change in the approach to maintenance? I can see changing/replacing >the specific tools used, but changing approaches seems out of scope at >this point. The replacement of url's with unique ID's isn't meant as a long term,user facing, appraoch; merely as a temporary state from which a new structure could be generated with new URL's. I had thought about it being a permanent state, with URL's represented by wiki-esque labels; but this seems pointless if the tools are always available to transform the content into a new arrangement, should the need ever arise again. > Walter writes: >Zope 3 isn't going to be sufficiently stable real soon; there are >still some very fundamental questions being asked among the >developers. > >We don't want to use Zope 2, as that will see less new development in >a couple of years, though we expect to maintain it for quite some >time. I don't want to get into the roadmap for Zope but if we were only using it as a back end administration system (ie it would be a useful tool to create HTML or even .ht files, given it's intrinsic support for reStructure text and content management like architecture). Would this be a reasonable temporary measure as it supports the speedy generation of a test system? Obviously the delivery of straight html would carry on as happens today. At some point in the far future a move towards a more dynamic delivery system could be considered, where the possibility that a more suitable system is available. I only ask as I want to minimise the development of interim tools and Zope could be a good 'playground' to prototype a back end; it could even be used to generate the ht files so could be 'abandoned' at any point in time if felt necessary. Tim From walter at livinglogic.de Fri Jul 25 12:58:18 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Fri Jul 25 05:58:53 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <16160.11440.44419.19749@grendel.zope.com> References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723151210.A7513@crank.slack.net> <16158.59288.437198.187484@grendel.zope.com> <3F202AD5.7050209@livinglogic.de> <16160.11440.44419.19749@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <3F20FF3A.9040000@livinglogic.de> Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: > Walter D?rwald writes: > > What I would really like to see is a www.python.org that is valid > > XHTML instead of the HTML we have now. Any change that we could work > > on that? > > Lots of us would like to see that, I think. > > We could certainly make sure the templates use XHTML properly; the > "hard" part is the content currently in .ht files. That's no problem. I already have versions of the .ht files converted to XHTML (or at least parsable XML fragments.) Of course those should be checked thoroughly, because changes practically every line in every file. > Those need to be > checked and fixed, and there are many that will need a fair bit of > work (I'm sure HTML Tidy could be leveraged to help). > > That's also something that can be worked on incrementally by anyone > with CVS access to the content. I don't remember if that includes > you; if not, we can probably arrange it to happen. ;-) That would be good. BTW, is there any other infrastructure in place? E.g. a checkin malinglist or a bugtracker? Bye, Walter D?rwald From amk at amk.ca Fri Jul 25 07:46:23 2003 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Fri Jul 25 07:48:37 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <16160.38810.984770.515730@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <3B9A7CCC-BE8D-11D7-B527-0003931BF218@amk.ca> On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 10:36 PM, Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: > We could definately start working on support reStructuredText in > HT2HTML, or in some new tool. I'd love to be able to use > reStructuredText to create and edit content. My personal ht2html script supports ReST input, so I should have most of the pieces required to implement this. Should I go ahead and do that? (In which case someone will have to give "akuchling" commit privs on the ht2html project.) --amk From amk at amk.ca Fri Jul 25 07:50:03 2003 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Fri Jul 25 07:49:11 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Quick questions Message-ID: I've started going through section 1 of the FAQ. There are numerous links to various places on python.org; I can either make them relative links, so that if you're reading a FAQ on a mirror you'll stay on that mirror, or absolute links (so you'll always go to python.org). If we want to resume posting the FAQ to Usenet, absolute links are necessary despite breaking on mirrors; do we want to post the FAQ? Second, any objection to creating /community/ and moving most of the still-useful stuff in /psa/ into it? --amk From fdrake at acm.org Fri Jul 25 08:54:26 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Fri Jul 25 07:55:06 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <3B9A7CCC-BE8D-11D7-B527-0003931BF218@amk.ca> References: <16160.38810.984770.515730@grendel.zope.com> <3B9A7CCC-BE8D-11D7-B527-0003931BF218@amk.ca> Message-ID: <16161.6770.180473.464578@grendel.zope.com> A.M. Kuchling writes: > My personal ht2html script supports ReST input, so I should have most > of the pieces required to implement this. Should I go ahead and do > that? (In which case someone will > have to give "akuchling" commit privs on the ht2html project.) Done. Go for it! If you're not already on the HT2HTML mailing list, you should add yourself to that. It's on SourceForge. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From sholden at holdenweb.com Fri Jul 25 09:17:09 2003 From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Fri Jul 25 08:22:23 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Quick questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org > [mailto:pydotorg-redesign-bounces@python.org]On Behalf Of > A.M. Kuchling > Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 6:50 AM > To: pydotorg-redesign@python.org > Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Quick questions > > > I've started going through section 1 of the FAQ. There are numerous > links to various > places on python.org; I can either make them relative links, > so that if > you're reading a FAQ on a mirror you'll stay on that mirror, or > absolute links (so you'll always go to python.org). > If we want to resume posting the FAQ to Usenet, absolute links are > necessary despite > breaking on mirrors; do we want to post the FAQ? > Is there any reason why the version posted to usenet has to be the same as the version in the web site? How difficult would (could?) it be to write a munger script to turn the Usenet version's links into absolute form? > Second, any objection to creating /community/ and moving most of the > still-useful stuff > in /psa/ into it? > Personally I think it would be a great idea to remove all mention of the PSA, but I'm not that familiar with the politics involved, if any. regards -- Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/ Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/ From fdrake at acm.org Fri Jul 25 09:42:35 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Fri Jul 25 08:43:21 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Quick questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16161.9659.250631.505875@grendel.zope.com> A.M. Kuchling writes: > Second, any objection to creating /community/ and moving most of the > still-useful stuff > in /psa/ into it? That sounds reasonable to me; it's definately an improvement over using /psa/! That would be a goiod excuse to make all the filenames lower case. ;-) On the other hand, if there's anyone from pydotorg-redesign working on a site-map, perhaps some coordination would be good. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From fdrake at acm.org Fri Jul 25 09:46:47 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Fri Jul 25 08:47:28 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Quick questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16161.9911.940405.366705@grendel.zope.com> Steve Holden writes: > Personally I think it would be a great idea to remove all mention of the > PSA, but I'm not that familiar with the politics involved, if any. I don't know that there's any reason to mention the PSA, but the existing links should be turned into redirects, so the directory itself probably shouldn't disappear just yet. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jul 25 11:41:52 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri Jul 25 10:41:56 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Quick questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030725144152.GA19495@panix.com> On Fri, Jul 25, 2003, A. M. Kuchling wrote: > > I've started going through section 1 of the FAQ. There are numerous > links to various places on python.org; I can either make them relative > links, so that if you're reading a FAQ on a mirror you'll stay on that > mirror, or absolute links (so you'll always go to python.org). If we > want to resume posting the FAQ to Usenet, absolute links are necessary > despite breaking on mirrors; do we want to post the FAQ? +0 on posting the FAQ, although now that I think about it, I think I'd rather have a separate FAQ for Usenet that gives a short roadmap to www.python.org. > Second, any objection to creating /community/ and moving most of the > still-useful stuff in /psa/ into it? -0 I've been thinking about doing this for a while and always end up saving it for a time when the material can be re-organized. It doesn't seem to me that it does much good to just change the directory structure unless we're ready to make content changes. But if you think it's a particularly good idea, I shan't object. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects with useful practice. --Aahz From altis at semi-retired.com Fri Jul 25 09:24:06 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Fri Jul 25 11:17:31 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Quick questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: A.M. Kuchling > > Second, any objection to creating /community/ and moving most of the > still-useful stuff > in /psa/ into it? Will /community/ also encompass the SIGs, mailing lists, and User Groups? The SIGs and mailing lists are one the most confusing parts of the site, but simply linking to the UserGroups.html page from a community page would probably be fine. ka From matt at pollenation.net Fri Jul 25 16:29:02 2003 From: matt at pollenation.net (Matt Goodall) Date: Fri Jul 25 11:29:12 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Quick questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1059147000.24450.49.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2003-07-25 at 16:24, Kevin Altis wrote: > > From: A.M. Kuchling > > > > Second, any objection to creating /community/ and moving most of the > > still-useful stuff > > in /psa/ into it? > > Will /community/ also encompass the SIGs, mailing lists, and User Groups? That would make sense to me. In fact ... matt pops off to check the design ... yep, Community is where Tim and I put those links in the design mockup too. - Matt -- Matt Goodall, Pollenation Internet Ltd w: http://www.pollenation.net e: matt@pollenation.net From fdrake at acm.org Fri Jul 25 12:28:18 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Fri Jul 25 11:30:05 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Quick questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16161.19602.569253.775993@grendel.zope.com> Kevin Altis writes: > Will /community/ also encompass the SIGs, mailing lists, and User Groups? > The SIGs and mailing lists are one the most confusing parts of the site, but > simply linking to the UserGroups.html page from a community page would > probably be fine. /community/ should at least link to the SIGs. The mailing lists and user groups should move into /community/. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jul 25 12:59:55 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri Jul 25 12:00:08 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Quick questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030725155954.GA10848@panix.com> On Fri, Jul 25, 2003, Kevin Altis wrote: > From: A.M. Kuchling >> >> Second, any objection to creating /community/ and moving most of the >> still-useful stuff in /psa/ into it? > > Will /community/ also encompass the SIGs, mailing lists, and User > Groups? The SIGs and mailing lists are one the most confusing parts > of the site, but simply linking to the UserGroups.html page from a > community page would probably be fine. That's certainly what I think should happen. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects with useful practice. --Aahz From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Jul 28 22:44:51 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon Jul 28 21:44:54 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Roundup field list In-Reply-To: <200304241403.49935.richard@mechanicalcat.net> References: <20030419010224.GA3613@panix.com> <200304241403.49935.richard@mechanicalcat.net> Message-ID: <20030729014451.GA5770@panix.com> [After a long delay....] On Thu, Apr 24, 2003, Richard Jones wrote: > On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 11:02 am, Aahz wrote: >> >> I'm proposing a list of fields (plus what would be handled as a linked >> table in a DBMS) for the python.org Roundup-based issue tracker. > > Just so we're clear - the purpose of _this_ set of issues is to only > track email to webmaster? A Roundup tracker may handle other pydotorg > issues (ie. system admin issues) as a separate issue store with its > own set of properties and behaviours. From the discussion so far, I > envision the tracker having two issue trypes: > > webmaster > - almost no meta-data except open/closed and nosy > - lots of automatic behaviour like close-on-webmaster-reply and > reopen-on-submitter-reply > - once a week summary of open issues sent to webmasters > support > - all the meta-data you describe below > - once a week summary of open issues sent to support people I'd rather have all the metadata available to webmaster issue types so that they can be converted to support issues if needed. >> Urgency >> Importance >> Default sort should be Urgency. (After many years in tech support, >> I really want this to be two separate fields.) > > No problem here, though I'd recommend the index display _group_ by > urgency and sort by activity date like the classic Roundup does. Hrm. I think activity date should be tertiary after urgency and importance. > What values would you have for Urgency and Importance? Low, Normal, High, Critical. Or we could use the SF system of 1-10, with 5 being "normal". >> Type >> This field should have defaults (webmaster, event, job, design, bug, >> task, etc.), but should also allow free-form entry (but any >> non-default values should require confirmation from the Roundup >> user). All Roundup users can add/edit the defaults. > > This isn't a Roundup capability at present. This sort of field is > handled by selecting options from a list of types. There's a separate > edit form for adding new types. As of version 0.6 (to be released > sometime this year ;) there's even a neato new popup dialog which > helps editing of this sort of field. Oh, well. All right, let's give all the pydotorg admins access to the type edit form. >> Submitter >> Do we need a separate field for e-mail address, or is an RFC-822 >> field good enough for both? Should there be a separate Creator field >> for Roundup users (defaults to "Roundup" when created by e-mail)? > > Submitters are automatically registered with the tracker - but they're > given no permissions for actually accessing it beyond the email > interface. > > This is "creator" (and also "author" of the initial sbumission > message) in the classic Roundup schema. Okie-doke. How does an auto-user get a password? >> Reviewer >> We don't need this now, but I'd expect we'll need it once we start >> really moving forward with a site redesign. > > No problem - what automatic behaviours would you see attached to the > reviewer property? Gets treated as owner for now (in terms of notifications). Yes, we could just keep changing assignedto, but my experience is that makes it harder to read for people not directly in the loop. Here's the complete list of proposed fields: Issue Number Urgency Importance Default sort should be Urgency. (After many years in tech support, I really want this to be two separate fields.) Status New/Open/Review/Closed Summary Short description Description Long description Reason Optional text field, used as a post-summary (e.g. YAGNI) Type Submitter Owner The Roundup user handling the issue, can be blank. Reviewer Datetime Created Datetime Last Modified Event Log -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects with useful practice. --Aahz From fdrake at acm.org Tue Jul 29 15:28:59 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Tue Jul 29 14:30:57 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <3F20FF3A.9040000@livinglogic.de> References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723151210.A7513@crank.slack.net> <16158.59288.437198.187484@grendel.zope.com> <3F202AD5.7050209@livinglogic.de> <16160.11440.44419.19749@grendel.zope.com> <3F20FF3A.9040000@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <16166.48363.975508.393036@grendel.zope.com> Walter D?rwald writes: > That would be good. Did you want to be on the python.org committers list at this point? > BTW, is there any other infrastructure in place? E.g. a checkin > malinglist or a bugtracker? There is a single mailing list for the current site maintainers (including non-Web aspects of the site), and checkin messages go there, but it's a private list. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From aahz at pythoncraft.com Tue Jul 29 16:30:12 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Tue Jul 29 15:30:17 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <16166.48363.975508.393036@grendel.zope.com> References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723151210.A7513@crank.slack.net> <16158.59288.437198.187484@grendel.zope.com> <3F202AD5.7050209@livinglogic.de> <16160.11440.44419.19749@grendel.zope.com> <3F20FF3A.9040000@livinglogic.de> <16166.48363.975508.393036@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <20030729193011.GA3718@panix.com> On Tue, Jul 29, 2003, Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: > Walter D?rwald writes: >> >> BTW, is there any other infrastructure in place? E.g. a checkin >> malinglist or a bugtracker? > > There is a single mailing list for the current site maintainers > (including non-Web aspects of the site), and checkin messages go > there, but it's a private list. There will be a bugtracker Real Soon Now, based on Roundup. See my message from yesterday. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects with useful practice. --Aahz From walter at livinglogic.de Wed Jul 30 13:19:26 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Wed Jul 30 06:20:00 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <16166.48363.975508.393036@grendel.zope.com> References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723151210.A7513@crank.slack.net> <16158.59288.437198.187484@grendel.zope.com> <3F202AD5.7050209@livinglogic.de> <16160.11440.44419.19749@grendel.zope.com> <3F20FF3A.9040000@livinglogic.de> <16166.48363.975508.393036@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <3F279BAE.70500@livinglogic.de> Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: > Walter D?rwald writes: > > That would be good. > > Did you want to be on the python.org committers list at this point? Yes. What I'm planning to do is port the .ht files to XHTML. As this is a big change, it would be good to have a second pair of eyes look over the changes before commiting. I assume this patch can be discussed on the bugtracker that will be installed Real Soon Now. > > BTW, is there any other infrastructure in place? E.g. a checkin > > malinglist or a bugtracker? > > There is a single mailing list for the current site maintainers > (including non-Web aspects of the site), and checkin messages go > there, but it's a private list. Bye, Walter D?rwald From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Jul 30 10:40:26 2003 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed Jul 30 09:49:49 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <3F279BAE.70500@livinglogic.de> References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723151210.A7513@crank.slack.net> <16158.59288.437198.187484@grendel.zope.com> <3F202AD5.7050209@livinglogic.de> <16160.11440.44419.19749@grendel.zope.com> <3F20FF3A.9040000@livinglogic.de> <16166.48363.975508.393036@grendel.zope.com> <3F279BAE.70500@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <20030730134026.GA15610@panix.com> On Wed, Jul 30, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: >> >>Did you want to be on the python.org committers list at this point? > > Yes. > > What I'm planning to do is port the .ht files to XHTML. As this is a > big change, it would be good to have a second pair of eyes look over > the changes before commiting. I assume this patch can be discussed on > the bugtracker that will be installed Real Soon Now. We've started the process of converting files to XHTML one at a time. If you've got an automated way of doing that, good; otherwise, I'm not sure that it's a good idea to do a mass update. It's similar to the way Guido opposes touching code just to fix a style issue or update to a new idiom. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects with useful practice. --Aahz From walter at livinglogic.de Wed Jul 30 16:58:50 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Wed Jul 30 09:59:25 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <20030730134026.GA15610@panix.com> References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723151210.A7513@crank.slack.net> <16158.59288.437198.187484@grendel.zope.com> <3F202AD5.7050209@livinglogic.de> <16160.11440.44419.19749@grendel.zope.com> <3F20FF3A.9040000@livinglogic.de> <16166.48363.975508.393036@grendel.zope.com> <3F279BAE.70500@livinglogic.de> <20030730134026.GA15610@panix.com> Message-ID: <3F27CF1A.1060209@livinglogic.de> Aahz wrote: > On Wed, Jul 30, 2003, Walter D?rwald wrote: > >>Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: >> >>>Did you want to be on the python.org committers list at this point? >> >>Yes. >> >>What I'm planning to do is port the .ht files to XHTML. As this is a >>big change, it would be good to have a second pair of eyes look over >>the changes before commiting. I assume this patch can be discussed on >>the bugtracker that will be installed Real Soon Now. > > We've started the process of converting files to XHTML one at a time. > If you've got an automated way of doing that, good; I do have an automated way, which is based on Marc-Andr? Lemburgs mxTidy. > otherwise, I'm not > sure that it's a good idea to do a mass update. I could do an automatic conversion, but commit each page separately after a review. > It's similar to the way > Guido opposes touching code just to fix a style issue or update to a new > idiom. Bye, Walter D?rwald From fdrake at acm.org Wed Jul 30 13:16:29 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Wed Jul 30 12:18:54 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <3F279BAE.70500@livinglogic.de> References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723151210.A7513@crank.slack.net> <16158.59288.437198.187484@grendel.zope.com> <3F202AD5.7050209@livinglogic.de> <16160.11440.44419.19749@grendel.zope.com> <3F20FF3A.9040000@livinglogic.de> <16166.48363.975508.393036@grendel.zope.com> <3F279BAE.70500@livinglogic.de> <20030730134026.GA15610@panix.com> Message-ID: <16167.61277.340656.978212@grendel.zope.com> Walter D?rwald writes: > Yes. Please send an email to pydotorg@python.org containing: - your preferred login name - an email address that @python.org should forward to - your SSH2 public key *as an attachment* You might get a bounce message from the pydotorg address, but Barry says that's not a problem; I'll do what he needs to do. You'll be added to the pydotorg mailing list as a side effect of all this. > What I'm planning to do is port the .ht files to XHTML. As this is a > big change, it would be good to have a second pair of eyes look over > the changes before commiting. I assume this patch can be discussed on > the bugtracker that will be installed Real Soon Now. I don't know what the schedule is for the RoundUp installation; hopefully Aahz can enlighten us. I'm not sure who's point for that. I hope you'll still be using the .ht as the source format, otherwise life as we know it will end before we're ready! Aahz writes: > We've started the process of converting files to XHTML one at a time. What I've started isn't quite so strong as to create *valid* XHTML; I'm really just shooting for well-formed with all lower-case tags and attribute names. > If you've got an automated way of doing that, good; otherwise, I'm not > sure that it's a good idea to do a mass update. It's similar to the way > Guido opposes touching code just to fix a style issue or update to a new > idiom. If Walter wants to actually make it valid XHTML, it's up to him to determine whether his preferred tools are emacs, vi, or his mxTidy-based tool. IMHO. One of Guido's guidelines is consistency; what's there now just isn't. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation From walter at livinglogic.de Thu Jul 31 01:07:39 2003 From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=) Date: Wed Jul 30 18:08:15 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <16167.61277.340656.978212@grendel.zope.com> References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723151210.A7513@crank.slack.net> <16158.59288.437198.187484@grendel.zope.com> <3F202AD5.7050209@livinglogic.de> <16160.11440.44419.19749@grendel.zope.com> <3F20FF3A.9040000@livinglogic.de> <16166.48363.975508.393036@grendel.zope.com> <3F279BAE.70500@livinglogic.de> <20030730134026.GA15610@panix.com> <16167.61277.340656.978212@grendel.zope.com> Message-ID: <3F2841AB.20701@livinglogic.de> Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: > Walter D?rwald writes: > > Yes. > > Please send an email to pydotorg@python.org containing: > > - your preferred login name > - an email address that @python.org should forward to > - your SSH2 public key *as an attachment* Done! > You might get a bounce message from the pydotorg address, but Barry > says that's not a problem; I'll do what he needs to do. You'll be > added to the pydotorg mailing list as a side effect of all this. OK! > > What I'm planning to do is port the .ht files to XHTML. As this is a > > big change, it would be good to have a second pair of eyes look over > > the changes before commiting. I assume this patch can be discussed on > > the bugtracker that will be installed Real Soon Now. > > I don't know what the schedule is for the RoundUp installation; > hopefully Aahz can enlighten us. I have to play around with the checkout to see how everything works anyway, so we're in no hurry. > I'm not sure who's point for that. ??? > I hope you'll still be using the .ht as the source format, otherwise > life as we know it will end before we're ready! Sure, I'm not planning to introduce new tools right now. And I'm not planning to check in anything major without a review. > Aahz writes: > > We've started the process of converting files to XHTML one at a time. > > What I've started isn't quite so strong as to create *valid* XHTML; > I'm really just shooting for well-formed with all lower-case tags and > attribute names. My tools don't validate the generated XHTML either, but they make sure that the result is well-formed XML and only the elements and attributes existing in XHTML are present. E.g. a

nested inside a

isn't detected, so the final validation still has to be done via validator.w3.org or some other tool. > > If you've got an automated way of doing that, good; otherwise, I'm not > > sure that it's a good idea to do a mass update. It's similar to the way > > Guido opposes touching code just to fix a style issue or update to a new > > idiom. > > If Walter wants to actually make it valid XHTML, it's up to him to > determine whether his preferred tools are emacs, vi, or his > mxTidy-based tool. IMHO. OK, I'll post a patch once the bugtracker is in place (and the patch is finished ;)) > One of Guido's guidelines is consistency; what's there now just > isn't. Bye, Walter D?rwald From fdrake at acm.org Wed Jul 30 19:15:41 2003 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Wed Jul 30 18:18:54 2003 Subject: [Pydotorg-redesign] Logo question In-Reply-To: <3F2841AB.20701@livinglogic.de> References: <20030723124057.B18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723135342.C18800@crank.slack.net> <20030723151210.A7513@crank.slack.net> <16158.59288.437198.187484@grendel.zope.com> <3F202AD5.7050209@livinglogic.de> <16160.11440.44419.19749@grendel.zope.com> <3F20FF3A.9040000@livinglogic.de> <16166.48363.975508.393036@grendel.zope.com> <3F279BAE.70500@livinglogic.de> <20030730134026.GA15610@panix.com> <16167.61277.340656.978212@grendel.zope.com> <3F2841AB.20701@livinglogic.de> Message-ID: <16168.17293.414460.525716@grendel.zope.com> Walter D?rwald writes: > > I'm not sure who's point for that. > > ??? Sorry. "point" or "point man" == who's in charge of making that happen. > > I hope you'll still be using the .ht as the source format, otherwise > > life as we know it will end before we're ready! > > Sure, I'm not planning to introduce new tools right now. And I'm not > planning to check in anything major without a review. Sounds good. Another thing to consider for document-centric content is to rework it to use reStructuredText; Andrew Kuchling updated HT2HTML to support that a few days ago, and I just converted doc/Summary.ht to use that; much nicer than dealing with markup in text! > My tools don't validate the generated XHTML either, but they make sure > that the result is well-formed XML and only the elements and attributes > existing in XHTML are present. E.g. a

nested inside a

isn't My htwf.py well-formedness checker for .ht files now checks for this particular case (well, any block tag inside and open

). Automating the check via a validator is probably a good idea and not too difficult. > OK, I'll post a patch once the bugtracker is in place (and the patch > is finished ;)) More interesting may be the conversion tool. ;-) -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs at Zope Corporation