<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 17 October 2011 16:42, Ian Ozsvald <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ian@ianozsvald.com">ian@ianozsvald.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class="im">> For pypy I can't see any better approach than the way they have taken. Once<br>
> people are using numpy on pypy the limitations and missing parts will become<br>
> clear, and not only will the way forward be more obvious but there will be<br>
> more people involved to do the work.<br>
<br>
</div>Michael - I agree that the PyPy community shouldn't do all the<br>
legwork! I agree also that the proposed path may spur more work (and<br>
maybe that's the best goal for now).<br>
<br>
I've gone back to the donations page:<br>
<a href="http://pypy.org/numpydonate.html" target="_blank">http://pypy.org/numpydonate.html</a><br>
to re-read the spec. What I get now (but didn't get before the<br>
discussion at Enthought Cambridge) is that "we don't plan to implement<br>
NumPy's C API" is a big deal (and not taking it on is entirely<br>
reasonable for this project!).<br>
<br>
In my mind (and maybe in the mind of some others who use scipy?) a<br>
base pypy+numpy project would easily open the door to matplotlib and<br>
all the other scipy goodies, it looks now like that isn't the case.<br>
Hence my questions to try to understand what else might be involved.<br>
<div class="im"><br></div></blockquote><div><br>Well, I think it definitely "opens the door" - certainly a lot more than not doing the work! You have to start somewhere.<br><br>It seems like other projects (like the pypy cython backend) will help make other parts of project easier down the line.<br>
<br>Back to Alex's question, how else would you *suggest* starting? Isn't a core port of the central parts the obvious way to begin? <br><br>Given the architecture of numpy it does seem that it opens up a whole bunch of questions around numpy on multiple implementations. Certainly pypy should be involved in the discussion here, but I don't think it is up to pypy to find (or implement) the answers...<br>
<br>All the best,<br><br>Michael<br><br><br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="im">
i.<br>
<br>
> Travis' post seems to suggest that it is the responsibility of the *pypy*<br>
> dev team to do the work necessary to integrate the numpy refactor (initially<br>
> sponsored by Microsoft). That refactoring (smaller numpy core) seems like a<br>
> great way forward for numpy - particularly if *it* wants to play well with<br>
> multiple implementations, but it is unreasonable to expect the pypy team to<br>
> pick that up!<br>
><br>
><br>
</div><div class="im">> It seems odd to argue that extending numpy to pypy will be a net negative<br>
> for the community! Sure there are some difficulties involved, just as there<br>
> are difficulties with having multiple implementations in the first place,<br>
> but the benefits are much greater.<br>
><br>
> All the best,<br>
><br>
> Michael Foord<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> Alex<br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right<br>
>> to say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)<br>
>> "The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero<br>
>><br>
>><br>
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>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
><br>
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><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">--<br>
Ian Ozsvald (A.I. researcher)<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><pre cols="72"><a href="http://www.voidspace.org.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.voidspace.org.uk/</a><br><br>May you do good and not evil<br>May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others<br>
May you share freely, never taking more than you give.<br>-- the sqlite blessing <a href="http://www.sqlite.org/different.html" target="_blank">http://www.sqlite.org/different.html</a></pre>
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