<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On May 15, 2013, at 4:32 AM, Christian Tismer <<a href="mailto:tismer@stackless.com">tismer@stackless.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none; ">What is the current status of this discussion?</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none; ">I'd like to know whether it is a considered alternative implementation.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "></blockquote><div><br></div><div>As far as I can tell, I'm the only one working on it (and a bit slowly at that).</div><div>My plan is to implement it for frozensets to see how it works out.</div><div><br></div><div>Frozensets are a nice first experiment for several reasons:</div><div>* The current implementation is cleaner than dictionaries</div><div> (which have become more complicated due to key-sharing).</div><div>* It will be easy to benchmark (by racing sets vs frozen sets)</div><div> for an apples-to-apples comparison.</div><div>* There is no need to have a list-like over-allocation scheme</div><div> since frozensets can't grow after they are created. </div><div> That will guarantee a significant space savings and</div><div> it will simplify the coding.</div><div>* I wrote the code for setobject.c so I know all the ins-and-outs. </div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none; ">There is also a discussion in python-ideas right now where this</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none; ">alternative is mentioned, and I think especially for small dicts</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none; ">as **kwargs, it could be a cheap way to introduce order.</span><br></blockquote><br></div><div>The compaction of keys and values into a dense array was</div><div>intended to save space, improve cache performance, and</div><div>improve iteration speed. The ordering was just a side-effect</div><div>and one that is easily disturbed if keys ever get deleted.</div><div><br></div><div>So a compacted dict might be a cheap way to introduce order</div><div>for kwargs, but it would need special handling if the user decided</div><div>to delete keys.</div><div><br></div><div>BTW, I'm +1 on the idea for ordering keyword-args. It makes</div><div>it easier to debug if the arguments show-up in the order they</div><div>were created. AFAICT, no purpose is served by scrambling them</div><div>(which is exacerbated by the new randomized hashing security feature).</div><br><div><br></div><div>Raymond</div></body></html>