<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:python-dev@python.org" target="_blank">python-dev@python.org</a>></span> wrote:<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class="">On 03.05.2018 1:01, Antoine Pitrou wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Wed, 2 May 2018 22:54:04 +0100<br>
Paul Moore <<a href="mailto:p.f.moore@gmail.com" target="_blank">p.f.moore@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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On 2 May 2018 at 22:37, Antoine Pitrou <<a href="mailto:solipsis@pitrou.net" target="_blank">solipsis@pitrou.net</a>> wrote:<br>
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To elaborate a bit: the OP, while angry, produced both a detailed<br>
analysis *and* a PR. It's normal to be angry when an advertised<br>
feature doesn't work and it makes you lose hours of work (or, even,<br>
forces you to a wholesale redesign). Producing a detailed analysis and a<br>
PR is more than most people will ever do.<br>
</blockquote>
His *other* email seems reasonable, and warrants a response, yes. But<br>
are we to take the suggestion made here (to drop tkinter) seriously,<br>
based on the fact that there's a (rare - at least it appears that the<br>
many IDLE users haven't hit it yet) race condition that causes a crash<br>
in Python 2.7? (It appears that the problem doesn't happen in the<br>
<a href="http://python.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">python.org</a> 3.x builds, if I understand the description of the issue).<br>
</blockquote></blockquote></span>
In 3.x, Tkinter+threads is broken too, albeit in a different way -- see <a href="https://bugs.python.org/issue33412" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bugs.python.org/issue3<wbr>3412</a> (this should've been the 2nd link in the initial message, sorry for the mix-up).<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">The observation in that issue that tkinter and threads should be handled in specific ways is certainly a given for old hands, who have long put the GUI code in one thread with one or more concurrent worker threads typically communicating through queues. But I haven't built anything like that recently, so I couldn't say how helpful the current documenation might be.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The 2.x bug also shows in 3.x if it's linked with a nonthreaded version of Tcl (dunno how rare that is, but the code still supports this setup).<span class=""><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I and others actually suggested it seriously in the past. Now,<br>
admittedly, at least IDLE seems better maintained than it used to<br>
be -- not sure about Tkinter itself.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Nor do I think the tone of his message here is acceptable - regardless<br>
of how annoyed he is, posting insults ("no-one gives a damn") about<br>
volunteer contributors in a public mailing list isn't reasonable or<br>
constructive. Call that "playing speech police" if you want, but I<br>
think that being offended or annoyed and saying so is perfectly<br>
reasonable.<br>
</blockquote>
Will all due respect, it's sometimes unpredictable what kind of wording<br>
Anglo-Saxons will take as an insult, as there's lot of obsequiosity<br>
there that doesn't exist in other cultures. To me, "not give a damn"<br>
reads like a familiar version of "not care about something", but<br>
apparently it can be offensive.<br>
</blockquote></span>
Confirm, never meant this as an insult.<br>
<br>
I had to use emotional language to drive the point home that it's not some nitpick, it really causes people serious trouble (I lost a source of income, for the record).<br>
Without the emotional impact, my message could easily be ignored as some noise not worth attention. This time, it's just too damn important to allow this possibility.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small;display:inline">With respect, I would say you CHOSE to use emotional language. I don't see that much indication that its absence had failed to produce responses, though they may not have been the responses you wanted.</div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small;display:inline"><br></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small;display:inline">Unfortunately the developers are rather too used to this kind of gratuitous abuse and so many of them may have overlooked your detailed analysis of the issues you were experiencing, since constructive contributions don't normally accompany such rants.</div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small;display:inline"><br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The module being abandoned and unused is truly the only explanation I could think of when seeing that glaring bugs have stayed unfixed for 15 years (an infinity in IT), in an actively developed and highly used software.<br>
This may be flattering for my ego, but if the module really is in any production use to speak of, then in all these years, with all this humongous user base, someone, somewhere in the world, at some point, should have looked into this. I don't even program in C professionally, yet was able to diagnose it and make a PR!<br>
<br></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small;display:inline">I think the fact that alarm bells haven't clanged is likely a product of tkinter's relatively small user base, perhaps amplified by dwindling availability of "GYU in one thread" lore. Anyway they have certainly clanged now.</div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small;display:inline"><br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
---<br>
<br>
I'll make a PR with the doc warning as Guido suggested unless there are any better ideas.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small;display:inline">In the absence of other actions this would be a good first step. Thank you.</div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"></div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Meanwhile, I'd really appreciate any response to my other message -- it is about actually fixing the issue, and I do need feedback to be able to proceed.<br>
No need to delve all the way in and give an official authorization or something. I'm only looking for an opinion poll on which redesign option (if any) looks like the most reasonable way to proceed and/or in line with the big picture (the last one -- to provide a unifying vision -- is _the_ job of a BDFL IIRC).<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"></font></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">I wouldn't presume to tell Guido his job, given that I've never done it and wouldn't be capable of it. Do you want the £5 opinion poll or the £10 opinion poll?</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Let's hope nobody here wants an argument ;-)</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">regards</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"> Steve</div><br></div></div></div></div>