<div dir="ltr"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 2:54 PM Matt Arcidy <<a href="mailto:marcidy@gmail.com">marcidy@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Sun, May 13, 2018, 11:28 Brendan Barnwell <<a href="mailto:brenbarn@brenbarn.net" target="_blank">brenbarn@brenbarn.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 2018-05-13 04:23, Steven D'Aprano wrote:<br>
> In my experience mathematicians put the given *before* the statement:<br>
><br>
> Given a, b, c three sides of a triangle, then<br>
><br>
> Area = sqrt(s*(s-a)*(s-b)*(s-c))<br>
><br>
> where s = (a + b + c)/2 is the semi-perimeter of the triangle.<br>
><br>
> For the record, that is almost exactly what I wrote for a student<br>
> earlier today, and its not just me, it is very similar to the wording<br>
> used on both Wolfram Mathworld and Wikipedia's pages on Heron's Formula.<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://mathworld.wolfram.com/HeronsFormula.html" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://mathworld.wolfram.com/HeronsFormula.html</a><br>
><br>
> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heron%27s_formula" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heron%27s_formula</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> Putting "given" after the expression is backwards.<br></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I usually read the vertical bar "given" in</div><div><br></div><div>set-builder notation: {x | 10 < x < 100, x is prime}</div><div><br></div><div>Conditional probabilities, expectations, entropy, etc.: P(X | Y), E(X| Y), H(X | Y), </div><div><br>And, the so-called "evaluation bar": <a href="https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/52651/what-is-the-name-of-the-vertical-bar-in-x21-vert-x-4-or-left-left">https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/52651/what-is-the-name-of-the-vertical-bar-in-x21-vert-x-4-or-left-left</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>In words, I agree that where is probably better in text because writing "given the gravitational constant G" puts the subject last, unlike "where G is the gravitational constant". However, the given proposal for Python is putting the subject first: "given x = y".</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Yes, but that's because we're ruling out the use of "where". At this <br>
point I would be fine with "snicklefritz" as the keyword. The point is <br>
that I want to put SOMETHING after the expression, and this is not at <br>
all unusual. See for instance Wikipedia pages on the Reimann zeta <br>
function <br>
(<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_zeta_function#Definition" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_zeta_function#Definition</a>), <br>
gravitation equation <br>
(<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity#Newton%27s_theory_of_gravitation" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity#Newton%27s_theory_of_gravitation</a>), and <br>
compound interest <br>
(<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_interest#Mathematics_of_interest_rate_on_loans" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_interest#Mathematics_of_interest_rate_on_loans</a>). <br>
If we have to use the word "given" even though the word mathematicians <br>
would use in that position is "where", that's not such a big deal.<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">it is a big deal. postfix requires more cognitive load, we will have no idea up front what's going on except for trivial exames. more givens, more cognitive load.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">if you think spending that is fine for you, I can't argue, but to say it doesn't matter isn't correct.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">2.exames which get far worse for complex cases. left for the for can be as complex.as.you wish.</div><div dir="auto">1:</div><div dir="auto">[ x + y for t in range(10) ... ]</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">2:</div><div dir="auto">x = 10</div><div dir="auto">y = 20</div><div dir="auto">[ x + y for t in range(10) ...]</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">up till you read ... you have no idea there even will be a substitution. The lower is even worse, you think you know, but then have to redo the whole problem with new information.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">also :</div><div dir="auto">mathematicians don't just put the _word_ "given", they put givens, things that are known or assumed to be true. Axioms and definitions, where definitions assign names to values. This is for formal arguements. reassigning values is handled in post fix occasionally once it is clear what x and y are. but that's not what we are talking about if the name doesn't exist already.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Most (if not all) uses of the vertical are read as "given" and they all put the givens to the right of it.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">again, you want to use given, that's fine, but the math argument is wrong, as is the "it doesn't matter" argument, assuming the current neurological model for working memory continues to hold.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"> Maybe the difference is small, especially after familiarity sets in, but that doesn't mean the difference in load isn't there. it will only increase for more complex statements with more givens.</div></div><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
-- <br>
Brendan Barnwell<br>
"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go, instead, where there is no <br>
path, and leave a trail."<br>
--author unknown<br>
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