<div dir="ltr">[David Mertz]<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">To be clear. Most of what I don't want is a system where OTHER people are relying on ratings rather than careful reading.</blockquote><div><br>In my experience, there's nothing you can do to make other people read anything carefully. Plus, many of the counterpoints have been "I have a lot more freedom in filtering and organizing emails with my email client", so I fear your dreams of forcing everybody to read everything will never be realized. As I've pointed out before, putting things in chronological order doesn't force people to read anything, it just favors new over old. I haven't read any of the discussions before 2016 (save a few).<br><br>[David Mertz]<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Mind you, I do know this other than this sort of discussion had other needs. GitHub issues are very useful. Occasionally I'll even go back and edit a prior comment rather than add another. But there I'm trying to make the issue genuinely correctly describe the issue at hand.</blockquote><div><br>The ability to edit in discussions is useful for the exact same reason.<br><br>I have to say. I've frequented Reddit for years and never had to deal with a disingenuous edit. I think that fear is a bit overblown.<br><div dir="auto"><br>[David Mertz]<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Stack Overflow or Stack Exchange are very useful for finding technical answers. Voting up best response there is extremely useful.<br>I do not want python-ideas to resemble those. It is simply not the appropriate kind of discussion.</blockquote><div><br>I find it very useful for discussion. I don't know why people keep declaring it's no good for discussion without explaining why. </div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 6:37 PM David Mertz <<a href="mailto:mertz@gnosis.cx">mertz@gnosis.cx</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">To be clear. Most of what I don't want is a system where OTHER people are relying on ratings rather than careful reading. I want to communicate on changes where posts cannot be "voted up" or edited, etc.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Mind you, I do know this other than this sort of discussion had other needs. GitHub issues are very useful. Occasionally I'll even go back and edit a prior comment rather than add another. But there I'm trying to make the issue genuinely correctly describe the issue at hand.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Stack Overflow or Stack Exchange are very useful for finding technical answers. Voting up best response there is extremely useful.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I do not want python-ideas to resemble those. It is simply not the appropriate kind of discussion.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Feb 1, 2019, 7:30 PM Abe Dillon <<a href="mailto:abedillon@gmail.com" target="_blank">abedillon@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto">[David Mertz]</div><div dir="auto"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I have absolutely no interest in any system that arranges comments in anything but related thread and chronological order. I DO NOT want any rating or evaluation of comments of any kind other than my own evaluation based on reading them. Well, also in reading the informed opinions of other readers. </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I would find it useless if not actively counterproductive to follow any system where such ratings of comments existed.</blockquote><div><br>Then just sort by chronological order.</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 6:19 PM David Mertz <<a href="mailto:mertz@gnosis.cx" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">mertz@gnosis.cx</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">I have absolutely no interest in any system that arranges comments in anything but related thread and chronological order. I DO NOT want any rating or evaluation of comments of any kind other than my own evaluation based on reading them. Well, also in reading the informed opinions of other readers. <div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I would find it useless if not actively counterproductive to follow any system where such ratings of comments existed.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">There is one property that every system invented to supercede email have in common. They are all dramatically worse in almost every way.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Feb 1, 2019, 5:09 PM Abe Dillon <<a href="mailto:abedillon@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">abedillon@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div> [Dan Sommers]</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Another point in favor of email clients over web pages is<br>that there are many of them, and *you* control the display<br>and other preferences rather than whoever wrote the forum<br>or owns the server.</blockquote><div><br>There is a tool called the Reddit Enhancement Suite or RES (and probably others)<br>That lets you control a great deal of the display and other preferences, however; I'm not<br>sure how that control compares to something like Thunderbird.<br><br>One thing that's nice about Reddit is you can link to posts, so if you've already discussed something at length in another thread,<br>you can simply refer to that discussion.<br><br> [Dan Sommers]<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">In an optimal technical discussion, opinions from users<br>don't count for anything. The ideas stand on their own<br>merits and research and metrics; users only serve to<br>confirm the methodology.</blockquote><div><br>A lot can be said about how an ideal world would work. Ideally, we could define the meaning of life and good and evil and we wouldn't need this clumsy system of laws and courts to approximate the whole mess.<br><br>I don't think it's that crazy to think that a voting system might approximate merit a little better than the timestamp on a post.<br>It's not going to be perfect, but perfect shouldn't be the enemy of better.</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 3:17 PM Dan Sommers <<a href="mailto:2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 2/1/19 2:58 PM, Abe Dillon wrote:<br>
> [Dan Sommers]<br>
> <br>
>> A mailing list is not a feed... Dan, a decades and decades long fan of<br>
>> mailing lists and real email clients.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I'm only familiar with Gmail which keeps reply chains coherent and moves<br>
> each chain to the top of my "forums" tab based on who responded last.<br>
> I haven't explored the various email clients available, can you suggest one?<br>
<br>
I used mutt for a long time, and then claws-mail, and now<br>
thunderbird. They all met my needs, although I did give<br>
up on claws-mail when I got a hidpi display (claws-mail<br>
based on gtk2, which doesn't grok hidpi displays).<br>
<br>
Another point in favor of email clients over web pages is<br>
that there are many of them, and *you* control the display<br>
and other preferences rather than whoever wrote the forum<br>
or owns the server.<br>
<br>
> [Dan Sommers]<br>
> <br>
>> Whoever posted last ends up at the bottom of the thread, so that I can<br>
>> read threads from top to bottom in chronological order. Getting the<br>
>> last word in shouldn't earn a spot at the top of the list.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> That doesn't like any closer an approximation to a merit-based solution to<br>
> me.<br>
Perhaps not all by itself. Many/most email clients allow<br>
individual users to "score" emails by various criteria, and<br>
then to display higher scoring messages "above" the others,<br>
or not display certain messages at all. Personally, I don't<br>
use the automated systems, but they're very comprehensive<br>
(arguably too complicated), and again, *user* adjustable.<br>
<br>
In an optimal technical discussion, opinions from users<br>
don't count for anything. The ideas stand on their own<br>
merits and research and metrics; users only serve to<br>
confirm the methodology.<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
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