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<p>James, frankly, it sounds to me like you have found things you
don't like about Python, and are frustrated that your ideas here
have not been celebrated. That's far from "decline." The process
for changing Python is fundamentally conservative, which can be
frustrating. I understand that. I myself have experienced that
frustration.</p>
<p>But claiming that Python is in decline, or that something "is the
only real chance of having a successful Python language" is just
hysteria that won't win over anyone.</p>
<p>Now you say Python isn't growing? Do you mean in features, or
usage? Either is obviously false. Perhaps you mean that it isn't
growing the way that you want?<br>
</p>
<p>There are things I would change about Python if I could, but I am
not the BDFL, and neither are you. Python is imperfect, because
it is made by people, over more than 25 years, and it's got to
balance competing demands.</p>
<p>It's clear that you are smart and have energy to dedicate to the
future of Python. I hope you find a productive way to contribute.<br>
</p>
<p>(Sorry for top-posting...)</p>
<p>--Ned.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/3/19 12:34 PM, James Lu wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:68272EFC-EBA5-45C8-A675-E1AC8BF5CFF8@gmail.com">
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Python’s decline is in not growing. <br>
<br>
<div id="AppleMailSignature" dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
On Feb 3, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Ned Batchelder <<a
href="mailto:ned@nedbatchelder.com" moz-do-not-send="true">ned@nedbatchelder.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
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<p>James, you say below, "This kind of readability issue,
datetime.now, is an example of what’s contributing to
Python’s decline."</p>
<p>Do you have any evidence of Python's decline? Lots of
metrics (albeit simplistic ones) point to Python growing in
popularity:</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.techrepublic.com/article/fastest-growing-programming-language-pythons-popularity-is-still-climbing/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.techrepublic.com/article/fastest-growing-programming-language-pythons-popularity-is-still-climbing/</a></li>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.netguru.com/blog/why-python-is-growing-so-quickly-future-trends"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.netguru.com/blog/why-python-is-growing-so-quickly-future-trends</a></li>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/07/26/python-is-becoming-the-worlds-most-popular-coding-language"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/07/26/python-is-becoming-the-worlds-most-popular-coding-language</a><br>
</li>
</ul>
<p>Are there indicators we are missing?<br>
</p>
<p>--Ned.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/2/19 11:56 PM, James Lu
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:B1DDB34E-59FA-4AD1-AA16-D4063FC5A306@gmail.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Sent from my iPhone
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">On Feb 2, 2019, at 3:41 AM, Steven D'Aprano <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:steve@pearwood.info" moz-do-not-send="true"><steve@pearwood.info></a> wrote:
</pre>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">On Sat, Feb 02, 2019 at 12:06:47AM +0100, Anders Hovmöller wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">- the status quo means "no change", so there is no hassle there;
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Not quite true. There is a constant hassle of "do I need to write
datetime.datetime.now() or datetime.now()?"
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">My point was that there is no hassle from *making a change* if you don't
actually make a change. (There may, or may not, be other, unrelated
hassles.)
Besides, I'm not seeing that this is any worse than any other import. Do
I call spam.Eggs.make() or Eggs.make()? If you don't remember what you
imported, the names don't make much difference.
I accept that datetime.datetime reads a bit funny and is a bit annoying.
If we had the keys to the time machine and could go back a decade to
version 3.0, or even further back to 1.5 or whenever the datetime module
was first created, it would be nice to change it so that the class was
DateTime. But changing it *now* is not free, it has real, serious costs
which are probably greater than the benefit gained.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Why can’t we put “now” as a property of the module itself, reccomend that, and formally deprecate but never actually remove datetime.datetime.now?
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I solved this at work by changing all imports to follow the "from
datetime import datetime" pattern and hard banning the other
statically in CI. But before that people suffered for years.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Oh how they must have suffered *wink*
I'm surprised that you don't do this:
from datetime import datetime as DateTime
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I have a colleague who likes to point that the future is longer than
the past. It's important to keep that perspective.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Actually, no, on average, the projected lifespan of technologies,
companies and cultural memes is about the same as their current age. It
might last less, or it might last more, but the statistical expectation
is about the same as the current age. So on average, "the future" is
about the same as "the past".
Python has been around not quite 30 years now, so we can expect that it
will probably last another 30 years. But chances are not good that it
will be around in 300 years.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">A big reason why projects last as long as you say they last is that the maintainers get un-ambitious, they get used to relaxing in the language they know so well, they are no longer keen on change.
This kind of readability issue, datetime.now, is an example of what’s contributing to Python’s decline.
Bottom line: if someone submits a PR for this, will anyone merge it?
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">--
Steve
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