From wescpy at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 02:23:00 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 17:23:00 -0700
Subject: Error with OpenOffice
Message-ID: <78b3a9580606231723i5a994737s595eb8c58d6d0b1a@mail.gmail.com>

> Subject: Error with OpenOffice
> From: "Mario Lacunza" <mlacunza at gmail.com>
> Date: Thu Apr 20 06:30:19 CEST 2006
>
> I try to make the exercises found in Ooo website but I receipt this
> error:
>
> mario at laptop:~$ python
> Python 2.4.2 (#2, Sep 30 2005, 21:19:01)
> [GCC 4.0.2 20050808 (prerelease) (Ubuntu 4.0.1-4ubuntu8)] on linux2
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>> import uno
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/uno.py", line 37, in ?
>     import pyuno
> SystemError: dynamic module not initialized properly
>
> Any idea??
>
> Mi configuracion/My config:
>
> Ubuntu Breezy 5.10
> Linux Kernel 2.6.12-10-386
> Python 2.4.2
> wxPython 2.6.1.1Pre
> OpenOffice 2.0.1


hola mario,

of the software you listed above, did you manually compile any?
i am using the exact same release as you:

Ubuntu Breezy 5.10
Linux Kernel 2.6.12-10-386
Python 2.4.2

the only difference is that i'm using OpenOffice2 version 1.9.129.
i have not loaded wxPython yet, but all of the software listed was
installed as Ubuntu packages (not hand-built).

i am able to do this:

$ python
Python 2.4.2 (#2, Sep 30 2005, 21:19:01)
[GCC 4.0.2 20050808 (prerelease) (Ubuntu 4.0.1-4ubuntu8)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import uno
>>> import sys
>>>
>>> sys.modules['uno']
<module 'uno' from '/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/uno.pyc'>
>>>
>>> sys.modules['pyuno']
<module 'pyuno' from '/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/pyuno.so'>

-wesley

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com


From kenneth.m.mcdonald at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jun 28 22:52:27 2006
From: kenneth.m.mcdonald at sbcglobal.net (Kenneth McDonald)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:52:27 -0500
Subject: [OT] Prolog and Regular Expressions, Was: Re: perspective on ruby
In-Reply-To: <ldo-0C7F3E.13395222042006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
References: <1145555339.316764.123210@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<dpQ1g.12815$4L1.9115@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>	<1he41sz.r7aasv1oo5lfN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>	<w1_1g.73947$dW3.51498@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
	<ldo-0C7F3E.13395222042006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <44A2EC0B.10000@sbcglobal.net>

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> In article <w1_1g.73947$dW3.51498 at newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>,
>  Edward Elliott <nobody at 127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>   
>> XML?  Conceptually (and more elegantly) covered 
>> as LISP s-expressions. 
>>     
>
> "...Lisp is still #1 for key algorithmic techniques such as recursion 
> and condescension."
>     -- Verity Stob 
> <http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2006/01/11/exception_handling/>
>
>   
>> XSLT?  Just a bastardized spawn of Prolog.
>>     
>
> As is any kind of pattern matching, including everyone's favourite 
> regular expressions. Prolog did it all.
>   
I'm assuming you're kidding--there is a lot of difference between an RE 
that produces a highly optimized finite state machine to quickly match a 
string, and a language that uses brute-force depth-first recursion, plus 
some nonobvious tricks, to do the same thing. Like many orders of 
magnitude in execution time :-)

That said, it'd be nice if there were some easy way to access a Prolog 
engine from Python. When Prolog is appropriate, it's _really_ appropriate.


Cheers,
Ken



From harry.g.george at boeing.com  Thu Jun 29 07:27:46 2006
From: harry.g.george at boeing.com (Harry George)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:27:46 GMT
Subject: [OT] Prolog and Regular Expressions, Was: Re: perspective on ruby
References: <1145555339.316764.123210@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<dpQ1g.12815$4L1.9115@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>
	<1he41sz.r7aasv1oo5lfN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<w1_1g.73947$dW3.51498@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
	<ldo-0C7F3E.13395222042006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
	<mailman.7588.1151528353.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <xqxveqk350t.fsf@cola3.ca.boeing.com>

Kenneth McDonald <kenneth.m.mcdonald at sbcglobal.net> writes:
[snip]
> 
> That said, it'd be nice if there were some easy way to access a Prolog
> engine from Python. When Prolog is appropriate, it's _really_
> appropriate.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Ken
> 

http://christophe.delord.free.fr/en/pylog/
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/303057
http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/py4fun/prolog/prolog2.html
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pyprolog/

Also, before these showed up, we locally did prolog-calls-python and
python-calls-prolog (all from a C++ CAD engine) by using the embedding
libraries and bindings.

-- 
Harry George
PLM Engineering Architecture


From wescpy at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 02:36:17 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 17:36:17 -0700
Subject: OpenOffice UNO export PDF help needed
Message-ID: <78b3a9580606231736q638e637l42f733e40721df3c@mail.gmail.com>

> > Subject: OpenOffice UNO export PDF help needed
> > From: "Sells, Fred" <fred at adventistcare.org>
> > Date: Sun Apr 30 04:17:43 CEST 2006
> >
> > I've geen googling for 3 days now, and cannot find out how to do this.
> >
> > I'm trying to use OpenOffice 2.0 and UNO to generate PDF documents.  I'm
> > using windows, but will have to make it work under Linux for production.
> > I've been able to set the parameters and call the exportToPdf method, but
> > the exported file is not PDF but an .odt document,
> > 		:
> > below is a java code snippet, submitted with apologies,  I'm using that
> > rather than python because I found better examples and my java IDE helps me
> > out.  I originally started out to do python, and will eventually shift back
> > to it once I get this working
>
>
> Subject: OpenOffice UNO export PDF help needed
> From: "Michele Petrazzo" <michele.petrazzo at TOGLIunipex.it>
> Date: Mon May 1 11:37:07 CEST 2006
>
> Have you tried the ooextract.py found on:
> http://udk.openoffice.org/python/python-bridge.html
>
> Here work well and generate a pdf file.
>
> See also this for more info about generate pdf:
> http://mithrandr.moria.org/blog/447.html


fred,

have you had any luck with either your Java or Python code?
did you take a look at the code that Michele had suggested?

please post your progress or any errors you encounter as
others on the list are interested too.

what version of OOo are you using?

thanks,
-wesley

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com


From wescpy at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 02:43:15 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 17:43:15 -0700
Subject: pyuno and oootools with OpenOffice 2.0
Message-ID: <78b3a9580606231743p29f64189o72fddc420719c5fe@mail.gmail.com>

> Subject: pyuno and oootools with OpenOffice 2.0
> From: "Sells, Fred" <fred at adventistcare.org>
> Date: Thu May 4 17:37:35 CEST 2006
>
> I'm using windows xp and OpenOffice 2.0 and doing my first project with
> pyuno.
>
> I've got the basics to work,.  An example I googled at
> http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/aggregators/openoffice_org/blogaggregator_view?b_start:int=0
> imported an ootools module.  When I try to import it, it does not exist,
>
> Does anyone know where this exists, or why I cannot import it.


the oootools.py module is referenced in this blog entry:

http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/blogs/laurent_godard/2006_04_13_testing-pyuno-programs-with-doctests

the direct link to download this file is:

http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/blogs/laurent_godard/2006_04_13_testing-pyuno-programs-with-doctests/downloadFile/attachedFile_1_f0/oootools.py

HTH,
-- wesley
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com


From wescpy at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 02:54:26 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 17:54:26 -0700
Subject: pyuno and PDF output
Message-ID: <78b3a9580606231754i7921e733l8625c14002cf6615@mail.gmail.com>

> Subject: pyuno and PDF output
> From: "Sells, Fred" <fred at adventistcare.org>
> Date: Thu May 4 19:20:57 CEST 2006
>
> I can use java to output a PDF file using uno, but when I try to do it in
> python, I get an IO Exception with no added information.   The relevant code
> snippet follows:
>
> from com.sun.star.beans import PropertyValue
> PDF    = PropertyValue( "FilterName" , 0 , "writer_pdf_Export", 0 )
> doc2.storeAsURL("file:///C:/alleclipse/OpenOffice/test2.pdf", (PDF,) )
>
> if I don't specify any properties, it writes an "odt" file just fine, but
> when I specify (PDF,) it breaks.
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "oomerge.py", line 137, in ?
>     test1()
>   File "oomerge.py", line 74, in test1
>     doc2.storeAsURL("file:///C:/alleclipse/OpenOffice/test2.pdf", (PDF,) )
> __main__.com.sun.star.task.ErrorCodeIOException


fred,

(man, i hate seeing that error too... it gets old *fast*.)
a couple of suggestions here:

1. use unohelper with filenames (see #3 below)
    import unohelper

2. use the short form to instantiate a PropertyValue

    REPLACE:
	PDF = PropertyValue("FilterName", 0, "writer_pdf_Export", 0)

    WITH:
	PDF = PropertyValue("FilterName", "writer_pdf_Export")

3. use storeToURL() as opposed to storeAsURL()

    REPLACE:
	doc2.storeAsURL("file:///C:/alleclipse/OpenOffice/test2.pdf", (PDF,))

    WITH:
	doc2.storeToURL(unohelper.absolutize(
	    unohelper.systemPathToFileUrl('C:/alleclipse/OpenOffice/test2.pdf'),
	    unohelper.systemPathToFileUrl('test2.pdf')), (PDF,))

let us know how/if/whether this works.

HTH,
-- wesley
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com


From cbaoqiu at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  4 18:51:03 2006
From: cbaoqiu at yahoo.com (Baoqiu Cui)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:51:03 GMT
Subject: deleting texts between patterns
References: <1147420279.664699.181200@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1147421468.912908.271280@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<44645C03.3070500@lexicon.net>
Message-ID: <m3k67wdfwb.fsf@dbti390o.svl.ibm.com>

John Machin <sjmachin at lexicon.net> writes:

> Uh-oh.
>
> Try this:
>
>>>> pat = re.compile('(?<=abc\n).*?(?=xyz\n)', re.DOTALL)
>>>> re.sub(pat, '', linestr)
> 'blahfubarabc\nxyz\nxyzzy'

This regexp still has a problem.  It may remove the lines between two
lines like 'aaabc' and 'xxxyz' (and also removes the first two 'x's in
'xxxyz').

The following regexp works better:

  pattern = re.compile('(?<=^abc\n).*?(?=^xyz\n)', re.DOTALL | re.MULTILINE)

>>> lines = '''line1
... abc
... line2
... xyz
... line3
... aaabc
... line4
... xxxyz
... line5'''
>>> pattern = re.compile('(?<=^abc\n).*?(?=^xyz\n)', re.DOTALL | re.MULTILINE)
>>> print pattern.sub('', lines)
line1
abc
xyz
line3
aaabc
line4
xxxyz
line5
>>> 

- Baoqiu

-- 
Baoqiu Cui <cbaoqiu at yahoo.com>


From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Mon Jun  5 01:36:14 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:36:14 +1000
Subject: deleting texts between patterns
In-Reply-To: <m3k67wdfwb.fsf@dbti390o.svl.ibm.com>
References: <1147420279.664699.181200@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1147421468.912908.271280@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<44645C03.3070500@lexicon.net>
	<m3k67wdfwb.fsf@dbti390o.svl.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <44836E6E.3070709@lexicon.net>

On 5/06/2006 2:51 AM, Baoqiu Cui wrote:
> John Machin <sjmachin at lexicon.net> writes:
> 
>> Uh-oh.
>>
>> Try this:
>>
>>>>> pat = re.compile('(?<=abc\n).*?(?=xyz\n)', re.DOTALL)
>>>>> re.sub(pat, '', linestr)
>> 'blahfubarabc\nxyz\nxyzzy'
> 
> This regexp still has a problem.  It may remove the lines between two
> lines like 'aaabc' and 'xxxyz' (and also removes the first two 'x's in
> 'xxxyz').
> 
> The following regexp works better:
> 
>   pattern = re.compile('(?<=^abc\n).*?(?=^xyz\n)', re.DOTALL | re.MULTILINE)
> 

You are quite correct. Your reply, and the rejoinder below, only add to 
the proposition that regexes are not necessarily the best choice for 
every text-processing job :-)

Just in case the last line is 'xyz' but is not terminated by '\n':

pattern = re.compile('(?<=^abc\n).*?(?=^xyz$)', re.DOTALL | re.MULTILINE)

Cheers,
John


From ldo at geek-central.gen.new_zealand  Mon Jun  5 11:27:57 2006
From: ldo at geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:27:57 +1200
Subject: Large Dictionaries
References: <1147699064.107490@teuthos>
	<e49va0$m72$1@newsreader3.netcologne.de>
	<1147772420.405097@teuthos>
	<1147818548.532882.94180@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1147874585.728471@teuthos>
	<1148514158.790760.205630@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<e5e3ff$q5d$03$1@news.t-online.com> <447af556$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <ldo-12AAC2.21275705062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>

In article <447af556$1 at nntp0.pdx.net>,
 Scott David Daniels <scott.daniels at acm.org> wrote:

>For example, time timsort (Python's internal sort) on pre-sorted
>data; you'll find it is handled faster than random data.

But isn't that how a reasonable sorting algorithm should behave? Less 
work to do if the data is already sorted?


From steve at holdenweb.com  Mon Jun  5 13:25:28 2006
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:25:28 +0100
Subject: Large Dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <ldo-12AAC2.21275705062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
References: <1147699064.107490@teuthos>	<e49va0$m72$1@newsreader3.netcologne.de>	<1147772420.405097@teuthos>	<1147818548.532882.94180@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<1147874585.728471@teuthos>	<1148514158.790760.205630@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<e5e3ff$q5d$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<447af556$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<ldo-12AAC2.21275705062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <e614ao$gon$1@sea.gmane.org>

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> In article <447af556$1 at nntp0.pdx.net>,
>  Scott David Daniels <scott.daniels at acm.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>>For example, time timsort (Python's internal sort) on pre-sorted
>>data; you'll find it is handled faster than random data.
> 
> 
> But isn't that how a reasonable sorting algorithm should behave? Less 
> work to do if the data is already sorted?

Isn't that just your definition of "reasonable"?

regards
  Steve
-- 
Steve Holden       +44 150 684 7255  +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC/Ltd          http://www.holdenweb.com
Love me, love my blog  http://holdenweb.blogspot.com
Recent Ramblings     http://del.icio.us/steve.holden



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Jun  5 16:06:30 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 5 Jun 2006 07:06:30 -0700
Subject: Large Dictionaries
References: <1147699064.107490@teuthos> <e5e3ff$q5d$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<447af556$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<ldo-12AAC2.21275705062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <e61dp6$t7a$1@panix2.panix.com>

In article <ldo-12AAC2.21275705062006 at lust.ihug.co.nz>,
Lawrence D'Oliveiro  <ldo at geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
>In article <447af556$1 at nntp0.pdx.net>,
> Scott David Daniels <scott.daniels at acm.org> wrote:
>>
>>For example, time timsort (Python's internal sort) on pre-sorted
>>data; you'll find it is handled faster than random data.
>
>But isn't that how a reasonable sorting algorithm should behave? Less 
>work to do if the data is already sorted?

Read some of the old discussions in the python-dev archives.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped
right there."  --Steve Gonedes


From iainking at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 16:28:40 2006
From: iainking at gmail.com (Iain King)
Date: 5 Jun 2006 07:28:40 -0700
Subject: Large Dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <ldo-12AAC2.21275705062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
References: <1147699064.107490@teuthos>
	<e49va0$m72$1@newsreader3.netcologne.de>
	<1147772420.405097@teuthos>
	<1147818548.532882.94180@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1147874585.728471@teuthos>
	<1148514158.790760.205630@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<e5e3ff$q5d$03$1@news.t-online.com> <447af556$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<ldo-12AAC2.21275705062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <1149517720.086866.3510@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> In article <447af556$1 at nntp0.pdx.net>,
>  Scott David Daniels <scott.daniels at acm.org> wrote:
>
> >For example, time timsort (Python's internal sort) on pre-sorted
> >data; you'll find it is handled faster than random data.
>
> But isn't that how a reasonable sorting algorithm should behave? Less
> work to do if the data is already sorted?

An already sorted list can be pathological for Quicksort, depending on
how you code it.

Iain



From ldo at geek-central.gen.new_zealand  Thu Jun  8 23:55:05 2006
From: ldo at geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:55:05 +1200
Subject: Large Dictionaries
References: <1147699064.107490@teuthos>
	<e49va0$m72$1@newsreader3.netcologne.de>
	<1147772420.405097@teuthos>
	<1147818548.532882.94180@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1147874585.728471@teuthos>
	<1148514158.790760.205630@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<e5e3ff$q5d$03$1@news.t-online.com> <447af556$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<ldo-12AAC2.21275705062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
	<1149517720.086866.3510@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <ldo-D5CDAB.09550509062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>

In article <1149517720.086866.3510 at j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
 "Iain King" <iainking at gmail.com> wrote:

>Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> In article <447af556$1 at nntp0.pdx.net>,
>>  Scott David Daniels <scott.daniels at acm.org> wrote:
>>
>> >For example, time timsort (Python's internal sort) on pre-sorted
>> >data; you'll find it is handled faster than random data.
>>
>> But isn't that how a reasonable sorting algorithm should behave? Less
>> work to do if the data is already sorted?
>
>An already sorted list can be pathological for Quicksort, depending on
>how you code it.

I did say "reasonable". :)


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 16:52:22 2006
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:52:22 -0400
Subject: Large Dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <ldo-12AAC2.21275705062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
References: <1147699064.107490@teuthos>
	<e49va0$m72$1@newsreader3.netcologne.de> <1147772420.405097@teuthos>
	<1147818548.532882.94180@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1147874585.728471@teuthos>
	<1148514158.790760.205630@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<e5e3ff$q5d$03$1@news.t-online.com> <447af556$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<ldo-12AAC2.21275705062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <1f7befae0606050752t7d2b0403m872aed970da30401@mail.gmail.com>

[Scott David Daniels]
>> For example, time timsort (Python's internal sort) on pre-sorted
>> data; you'll find it is handled faster than random data.

O(N) vs O(N log N), in fact.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]
> But isn't that how a reasonable sorting algorithm should behave? Less
> work to do if the data is already sorted?

For example, the O(N log N) heapsort is unreasonable compared to the
O(N**2) bubblesort by that reasoning (pre-sorted is actually a bad
case for heapsort, but a good case for bubblesort)?  O(N log N)
sorting algorithms helped by pre-existing order are uncommon, unless
they do extra work to detect and exploit pre-existing order.

Python's current sorting algorithm exploits pre-existing order of many
kinds.  For example, take a sorted list, "cut it in half, and riffle
shuffle the two halves together"; e.g.,

[0, 8, 1, 9, 2, 10, 3, 11, 4, 12, 5, 13, 6, 14, 7, 15]

That turns out to be a supernaturally good case too.


From jes at nl.demon.net  Mon Jun  5 19:52:02 2006
From: jes at nl.demon.net (Jim Segrave)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:52:02 -0000
Subject: Large Dictionaries
References: <1147699064.107490@teuthos> <447af556$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<ldo-12AAC2.21275705062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
	<mailman.6554.1149519174.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1288rq2mkj9r40b@corp.supernews.com>

In article <mailman.6554.1149519174.27775.python-list at python.org>,
Tim Peters <tim.peters at gmail.com> wrote:
>[Scott David Daniels]
>>> For example, time timsort (Python's internal sort) on pre-sorted
>>> data; you'll find it is handled faster than random data.
>
>O(N) vs O(N log N), in fact.
>
>[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]
>> But isn't that how a reasonable sorting algorithm should behave? Less
>> work to do if the data is already sorted?
>
>For example, the O(N log N) heapsort is unreasonable compared to the
>O(N**2) bubblesort by that reasoning (pre-sorted is actually a bad
>case for heapsort, but a good case for bubblesort)?  O(N log N)
>sorting algorithms helped by pre-existing order are uncommon, unless
>they do extra work to detect and exploit pre-existing order.

Actually, presorted lists are not a bad case for heapsort - it's quite
immune to any existing order or lack thereof, whereas some other
sorts, quicksort being a prime example, require great care to
avoid pathological cases.



-- 
Jim Segrave           (jes at jes-2.demon.nl)



From tim.peters at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 20:24:41 2006
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:24:41 -0400
Subject: Large Dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <1288rq2mkj9r40b@corp.supernews.com>
References: <1147699064.107490@teuthos> <447af556$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<ldo-12AAC2.21275705062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
	<mailman.6554.1149519174.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1288rq2mkj9r40b@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae0606051124m1cde1096m1e021c53124437d5@mail.gmail.com>

[Jim Segrave]
> Actually, presorted lists are not a bad case for heapsort - it's quite
> immune to any existing order or lack thereof,

Write a heapsort and time it.  It's not a difference in O() behavior,
but more memory movement is required for a sorted list because
transforming the list into a max-heap at the start requires shuffling
the largest elements from the end of the list to its start.  Initially
reverse-sorted is a "good case" for heapsort in the same sense
(because the list is already a max-heap then; initially sorted is as
far from being a max-heap as is possible).  "good" and "bad" are both
O(N log N) here, though.

BTW, most people have never heard of Smoothsort, which was Dijkstra's
excruciating attempt to make heapsort exploit pre-existing order:

    http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd07xx/EWD796.PDF

That's one of a hundred algorithms I rejected for Python ;-)

> whereas some other sorts, quicksort being a prime example, require
> great care to avoid pathological cases.

Indeed, Python gave up on quicksort for that reason.  While the
samplesort hybrid that came between quicksort and the current sort
also had theoretical O(N**2) worst-case behavior, it was exceedingly
difficult to create such an input, and (unlike as for every quicksort
variant Python tried) no real-life case of undue sloth was ever
reported against it.


From jes at nl.demon.net  Mon Jun  5 22:15:27 2006
From: jes at nl.demon.net (Jim Segrave)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:15:27 -0000
Subject: Large Dictionaries
References: <1147699064.107490@teuthos>
	<mailman.6554.1149519174.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1288rq2mkj9r40b@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.6567.1149531885.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <128946vm56t7627@corp.supernews.com>

In article <mailman.6567.1149531885.27775.python-list at python.org>,
Tim Peters <tim.peters at gmail.com> wrote:
>[Jim Segrave]
>> Actually, presorted lists are not a bad case for heapsort - it's quite
>> immune to any existing order or lack thereof,
>
>Write a heapsort and time it.  It's not a difference in O() behavior,
>but more memory movement is required for a sorted list because
>transforming the list into a max-heap at the start requires shuffling
>the largest elements from the end of the list to its start.  Initially
>reverse-sorted is a "good case" for heapsort in the same sense
>(because the list is already a max-heap then; initially sorted is as
>far from being a max-heap as is possible).  "good" and "bad" are both
>O(N log N) here, though.

I did implement a crude heapsort before posting this and measured the
number of comparisions and the number of swaps.

==================================================

#!/usr/local/bin/python

import random

class HeapSorter(object):
    def __init__(self, seq):
        self.compares = 0
        self.swaps = 0
        self.length = len(seq)
        self.seq = seq

    def __sift(self, i):
        while True:
            j = 2 * i + 1
            if j + 1 < self.length:
                self.compares += 1
                if self.seq[j + 1] > self.seq[j]:
                    j = j + 1
            if j >= self.length:
                return
        
            self.compares += 1
            if self.seq[i] > self.seq[j]:
                return
        
            self.swaps += 1
            self.seq[i], self.seq[j] = (self.seq[j], self.seq[i])
            i = j

    def __makeheap(self):
        for i in range(self.length / 2, -1, -1):
            self.__sift(i)

    def sort(self):
        self.__makeheap()
        for i in range(self.length - 1, -1, -1):
            self.swaps += 1
            self.seq[i], self.seq[0] = (self.seq[0], self.seq[i])
            self.length -= 1
            self.__sift(0)

if __name__ == '__main__':

    s = list(range(100000))
    random.shuffle(s)
    
    heap = HeapSorter(s)
    heap.sort()
    print "Random list:         comapres %d, swaps %d" % \
          (heap.compares, heap.swaps)
    heap = HeapSorter(s)
    heap.sort()
    print "Sorted list:         comapres %d, swaps %d" % \
          (heap.compares, heap.swaps)

    s.reverse()
    heap = HeapSorter(s)
    heap.sort()
    print "Reverse Sorted list: comapres %d, swaps %d" % \
          (heap.compares, heap.swaps)

==================================================

Which gave the following results:

/usr/home/jes% python ./heapsort
Random list:         comapres 3019969, swaps 1575263
Sorted list:         comapres 3112517, swaps 1650855
Reverse Sorted list: comapres 2926640, swaps 1497435

Assuming compares and swaps dominate other bookkeeping, then heapsort
is quite stable in its performance, although the constant in the O(N log N)
is much larger than for other sorts. 



-- 
Jim Segrave           (jes at jes-2.demon.nl)



From ldo at geek-central.gen.new_zealand  Thu Jun  8 23:54:47 2006
From: ldo at geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:54:47 +1200
Subject: Large Dictionaries
References: <1147699064.107490@teuthos>
	<e49va0$m72$1@newsreader3.netcologne.de>
	<1147772420.405097@teuthos>
	<1147818548.532882.94180@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1147874585.728471@teuthos>
	<1148514158.790760.205630@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<e5e3ff$q5d$03$1@news.t-online.com> <447af556$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<ldo-12AAC2.21275705062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
	<mailman.6554.1149519174.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ldo-C52E4F.09544709062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>

In article <mailman.6554.1149519174.27775.python-list at python.org>,
 "Tim Peters" <tim.peters at gmail.com> wrote:

>For example, the O(N log N) heapsort is unreasonable compared to the
>O(N**2) bubblesort by that reasoning (pre-sorted is actually a bad
>case for heapsort, but a good case for bubblesort)?  O(N log N)
>sorting algorithms helped by pre-existing order are uncommon, unless
>they do extra work to detect and exploit pre-existing order.

Shellsort works well with nearly-sorted data. It's basically a smarter 
version of bubblesort with much improved efficiency. It's also very 
compact to implement.


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 00:10:32 2006
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:10:32 -0400
Subject: Large Dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <ldo-C52E4F.09544709062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
References: <1147699064.107490@teuthos> <1147772420.405097@teuthos>
	<1147818548.532882.94180@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1147874585.728471@teuthos>
	<1148514158.790760.205630@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<e5e3ff$q5d$03$1@news.t-online.com> <447af556$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<ldo-12AAC2.21275705062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
	<mailman.6554.1149519174.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<ldo-C52E4F.09544709062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <1f7befae0606081510q5e9b6775r9e7d817c921f4ae4@mail.gmail.com>

[Tim Peters]
>> ...
>> O(N log N) sorting algorithms helped by pre-existing order are
>> uncommon, unless they do extra work to detect and exploit
>> pre-existing order.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]
> Shellsort works well with nearly-sorted data. It's basically a smarter
> version of bubblesort with much improved efficiency. It's also very
> compact to implement.

shellsort is much more a refinement of insertion-sort than of
bubblesort, but is not an O(N log N) algorithm regardlesss.  A nice,
succinct summary of what was known about shellsort's behavior as of
Sedgewick's 1996 "Analysis of Shellsort and Related Algorithms" can be
found here:

    http://www.inf.fh-flensburg.de/lang/algorithmen/sortieren/shell/shellen.htm


From Marcin.Ciura at NOSPAM.poczta.onet.pl  Fri Jun  9 12:16:03 2006
From: Marcin.Ciura at NOSPAM.poczta.onet.pl (Marcin Ciura)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 12:16:03 +0200
Subject: Large Dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6771.1149804636.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <1147699064.107490@teuthos>
	<1147772420.405097@teuthos>	<1147818548.532882.94180@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<1147874585.728471@teuthos>	<1148514158.790760.205630@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<e5e3ff$q5d$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<447af556$1@nntp0.pdx.net>	<ldo-12AAC2.21275705062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>	<mailman.6554.1149519174.27775.python-list@python.org>	<ldo-C52E4F.09544709062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>
	<mailman.6771.1149804636.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <e6bhn2$tro$1@news.onet.pl>

Tim Peters wrote:
> shellsort is much more a refinement of insertion-sort than of
> bubblesort, but is not an O(N log N) algorithm regardlesss.

With a judiciously chosen increment sequence,
the number of comparisons made by shellsort
*is* of the order N log N for practical values of N.
See Figure 8 in
http://sun.iinf.polsl.gliwice.pl/~mciura/shellsort.pdf
   Marcin


From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Fri Jun  9 13:35:48 2006
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 9 Jun 2006 11:35:48 GMT
Subject: Large Dictionaries
References: <1147699064.107490@teuthos>
	<mailman.6771.1149804636.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<e6bhn2$tro$1@news.onet.pl>
Message-ID: <Xns97DD8020BC46Aduncanbooth@127.0.0.1>

Marcin Ciura wrote:

> Tim Peters wrote:
>> shellsort is much more a refinement of insertion-sort than of
>> bubblesort, but is not an O(N log N) algorithm regardlesss.
> 
> With a judiciously chosen increment sequence,
> the number of comparisons made by shellsort
> *is* of the order N log N for practical values of N.
> See Figure 8 in
> http://sun.iinf.polsl.gliwice.pl/~mciura/shellsort.pdf

That isn't what the reference says. It only covers N up to a few thousand. 
Practical values of N need to at least go up into the millions.

Read the summary:
> Using sequential analysis, the search for optimal increment sequences
> for Shellsort was accelerated enough to find them for arrays up to
> several thousand elements.
...
> However, the sequences obtained so far are too short to draw a
> reliable conclusion whether an appropriate sequence of increments can
> make Shellsort a O(N logN) sorting method on the average. Some
> hypotheses may be possible when the sequences are prolonged to sort
> arrays of about 10^5 elements. 



From Marcin.Ciura at NOSPAM.poczta.onet.pl  Fri Jun  9 14:10:00 2006
From: Marcin.Ciura at NOSPAM.poczta.onet.pl (Marcin Ciura)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 14:10:00 +0200
Subject: Large Dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <Xns97DD8020BC46Aduncanbooth@127.0.0.1>
References: <1147699064.107490@teuthos>
	<mailman.6771.1149804636.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<e6bhn2$tro$1@news.onet.pl> <Xns97DD8020BC46Aduncanbooth@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <e6bocn$q7l$1@news.onet.pl>

Duncan Booth wrote:
> Marcin Ciura wrote:
>>See Figure 8 in
>>http://sun.iinf.polsl.gliwice.pl/~mciura/shellsort.pdf
> That isn't what the reference says. It only covers N up to a few thousand. 
> Practical values of N need to at least go up into the millions.

Please look at the performance graph of Tokuda's increment sequence.
You can see that it scales pretty well at least up to 100 million.
   Marcin


From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Fri Jun  9 14:51:56 2006
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 9 Jun 2006 12:51:56 GMT
Subject: Large Dictionaries
References: <1147699064.107490@teuthos>
	<mailman.6771.1149804636.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<e6bhn2$tro$1@news.onet.pl> <Xns97DD8020BC46Aduncanbooth@127.0.0.1>
	<e6bocn$q7l$1@news.onet.pl>
Message-ID: <Xns97DD8CFF46E9Fduncanbooth@127.0.0.1>

Marcin Ciura wrote:

> Duncan Booth wrote:
>> Marcin Ciura wrote:
>>>See Figure 8 in
>>>http://sun.iinf.polsl.gliwice.pl/~mciura/shellsort.pdf
>> That isn't what the reference says. It only covers N up to a few
>> thousand. Practical values of N need to at least go up into the
>> millions. 
> 
> Please look at the performance graph of Tokuda's increment sequence.
> You can see that it scales pretty well at least up to 100 million.

Ah sorry, I misread it. It was sequences with several thousand elements, 
which corresponds to N of 100 million.


From mike.klaas at gmail.com  Tue Jun 13 01:44:24 2006
From: mike.klaas at gmail.com (Klaas)
Date: 12 Jun 2006 16:44:24 -0700
Subject: Large Dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <e5e3ff$q5d$03$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <1147699064.107490@teuthos>
	<e49va0$m72$1@newsreader3.netcologne.de>
	<1147772420.405097@teuthos>
	<1147818548.532882.94180@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1147874585.728471@teuthos>
	<1148514158.790760.205630@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<e5e3ff$q5d$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <1150155864.813698.206600@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Thomas Ganss wrote:
> Klaas schrieb:
>
> > 4. Insert your keys in sorted order.
> This advice is questionable -
> it depends on the at least on the db vendor and probably
> sometimes on the sort method, if inserting pre-sorted
> values is better.

The article I wrote that you quoted named a specific vendor (berkeley
db) for which my advice is unquestionable and well-known.

-Mike



From frithiof.jensen at die_spammer_die.ericsson.com  Thu Jun  1 14:03:58 2006
From: frithiof.jensen at die_spammer_die.ericsson.com (Frithiof Andreas Jensen)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:03:58 +0200
Subject: creating a new database with mysqldb
References: <gcKag.2113$No6.46302@news.tufts.edu>
Message-ID: <e5ml3f$6u3$1@news.al.sw.ericsson.se>


"John Salerno" <johnjsal at NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:gcKag.2113$No6.46302 at news.tufts.edu...
> Since the connect method of mysqldb requires a database name, it
seems
> like you can't use it without having a database already created.

The web hotel I use create *one* database together with the account.

I.O.W:

I cannot create any databases; I can create/delete as many tables as I
like within the database (up to the disk space that I have). This is
pretty normal, I think.




From johnjsal at NOSPAMgmail.com  Thu Jun  1 16:01:36 2006
From: johnjsal at NOSPAMgmail.com (John Salerno)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:01:36 GMT
Subject: creating a new database with mysqldb
In-Reply-To: <e5ml3f$6u3$1@news.al.sw.ericsson.se>
References: <gcKag.2113$No6.46302@news.tufts.edu>
	<e5ml3f$6u3$1@news.al.sw.ericsson.se>
Message-ID: <4rCfg.2206$No6.47203@news.tufts.edu>

Frithiof Andreas Jensen wrote:
> "John Salerno" <johnjsal at NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
> news:gcKag.2113$No6.46302 at news.tufts.edu...
>> Since the connect method of mysqldb requires a database name, it
> seems
>> like you can't use it without having a database already created.
> 
> The web hotel I use create *one* database together with the account.
> 
> I.O.W:
> 
> I cannot create any databases; I can create/delete as many tables as I
> like within the database (up to the disk space that I have). This is
> pretty normal, I think.
> 
> 

No, I can create 25 databases.


From sekhon.hari at googlemail.com  Wed Jun 21 12:59:21 2006
From: sekhon.hari at googlemail.com (Hari Sekhon)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:59:21 +0100
Subject: memory error with zipfile module
In-Reply-To: <446e51e6$0$6831$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
References: <mailman.5938.1148039030.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<A4x*kx3gr@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<446e07ab$0$12795$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
	<1148072514.207383.26370@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<446e51e6$0$6831$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <d77b42b30606210359s723c047ao7426738e3b87851a@mail.gmail.com>

On 20/05/06, Bruno Desthuilliers <bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr>
wrote:
>
> Roger Miller a ?crit :
> > The basic problem is that the zipfile interface only reads and writes
> > whole files, so it may perform poorly or fail on huge files.   At one
> > time I implemented a patch to allow reading files in chunks. However I
> > believe that the current interface has too many problems to solve by
> > incremental patching,
>
> Yeps, that was the general tone of some thread on python-dev. And from
> what I saw of the source code, it may effectively not be the cleanest
> part of the stdlib. But what, it does what it was written for at first :
> provide working support for zipped packages.
>
> > and that a zipfile2 module is probably warranted.
> > (Is anyone working on this?)
>
> Seems like Bob Ippolito was on the rank, but I guess you'll get better
> answers on python-dev.
>
> > In the meantime I think the best solution is often to just run an
> > external zip/unzip utility to do the heavy lifting.
>
> Indeed !-)
>
> But while having zip/unzip installed OOTB on a unix-like system is close
> to warrented, it may not be the case on Windows.
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

Shame, I would like to try to improve this but seeing as Roger Miller has
already submitted a patch I don't know how much I can do for this. In the
end I resorted to using an external zip utility via os.system().

I'll be interested to know if there is any work done on improving this as
I'm in favour of native python usage, rather than using os.system() and
relying on the operating system having a zip command, which I'm not
convinced is the case on all windows machines, and also, I'm sure gentoo
installs don't have zip by default, since I had to emerge it on a server for
this script to work.

Is it me or is having to use os.system() all the time symtomatic of a
deficiency/things which are missing from python as a language? Not that I'm
complaining, I'm just curious... I'm a fledgeling programmer so I don't mind
being gently corrected by any veterans around.

Hari
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From fredrik at pythonware.com  Wed Jun 21 17:29:59 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:29:59 +0200
Subject: memory error with zipfile module
In-Reply-To: <d77b42b30606210359s723c047ao7426738e3b87851a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.5938.1148039030.27775.python-list@python.org>	<A4x*kx3gr@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>	<446e07ab$0$12795$636a55ce@news.free.fr>	<1148072514.207383.26370@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<446e51e6$0$6831$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
	<d77b42b30606210359s723c047ao7426738e3b87851a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e7boll$qa$1@sea.gmane.org>

Hari Sekhon wrote:

> Is it me or is having to use os.system() all the time symtomatic of a 
> deficiency/things which are missing from python as a language?

it's you.

</F>



From sekhon.hari at googlemail.com  Wed Jun 21 17:41:17 2006
From: sekhon.hari at googlemail.com (Hari Sekhon)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:41:17 +0100
Subject: memory error with zipfile module
In-Reply-To: <e7boll$qa$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.5938.1148039030.27775.python-list@python.org>	<A4x*kx3gr@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>	<446e07ab$0$12795$636a55ce@news.free.fr>	<1148072514.207383.26370@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<446e51e6$0$6831$636a55ce@news.free.fr>	<d77b42b30606210359s723c047ao7426738e3b87851a@mail.gmail.com>
	<e7boll$qa$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <4499689D.1000206@gmail.com>

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> Hari Sekhon wrote:
>
>   
>> Is it me or is having to use os.system() all the time symtomatic of a 
>> deficiency/things which are missing from python as a language?
>>     
>
> it's you.
>
> </F>
>
>   
I take it that it's still a work in progress to be able to pythonify 
everything, and until then we're just gonna have to rely on shell and 
those great C coded coreutils and stuff like that. Ok, I'm rather fond 
of Bash+coreutils, highest ratio of code lines to work I've ever 
seen.... it's the real strength of Linux. Shame about Windows...
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From fredrik at pythonware.com  Wed Jun 21 17:51:21 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:51:21 +0200
Subject: memory error with zipfile module
In-Reply-To: <4499689D.1000206@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.5938.1148039030.27775.python-list@python.org>	<A4x*kx3gr@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>	<446e07ab$0$12795$636a55ce@news.free.fr>	<1148072514.207383.26370@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<446e51e6$0$6831$636a55ce@news.free.fr>	<d77b42b30606210359s723c047ao7426738e3b87851a@mail.gmail.com>	<e7boll$qa$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<4499689D.1000206@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e7bptn$5pa$1@sea.gmane.org>

Hari Sekhon wrote:

> I take it that it's still a work in progress to be able to pythonify 
> everything, and until then we're just gonna have to rely on shell and 
> those great C coded coreutils and stuff like that. Ok, I'm rather fond 
> of Bash+coreutils, highest ratio of code lines to work I've ever 
> seen.... it's the real strength of Linux. Shame about Windows...

you make very little sense.

</F>



From sekhon.hari at googlemail.com  Wed Jun 21 18:02:24 2006
From: sekhon.hari at googlemail.com (Hari Sekhon)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:02:24 +0100
Subject: memory error with zipfile module
In-Reply-To: <e7bptn$5pa$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.5938.1148039030.27775.python-list@python.org>	<A4x*kx3gr@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>	<446e07ab$0$12795$636a55ce@news.free.fr>	<1148072514.207383.26370@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<446e51e6$0$6831$636a55ce@news.free.fr>	<d77b42b30606210359s723c047ao7426738e3b87851a@mail.gmail.com>	<e7boll$qa$1@sea.gmane.org>	<4499689D.1000206@gmail.com>
	<e7bptn$5pa$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <44996D90.4000802@gmail.com>

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> Hari Sekhon wrote:
>
>   
>> I take it that it's still a work in progress to be able to pythonify 
>> everything, and until then we're just gonna have to rely on shell and 
>> those great C coded coreutils and stuff like that. Ok, I'm rather fond 
>> of Bash+coreutils, highest ratio of code lines to work I've ever 
>> seen.... it's the real strength of Linux. Shame about Windows...
>>     
>
> you make very little sense.
>
> </F>
>
>   
how so, this is effectively what we do when we run os.system(). Usually 
people are running system commands on unix like machines using coreutils 
written in C to do things that are either difficult or near impossible 
to do in python...

I've seen people using everything from zip to touch, either out of 
laziness or out of the fact it wouldn't work very well in python, this 
zip case is a good example. Sometimes when doing system scripts, they're 
effectively Bash scripting, but taking longer to do in many more lines 
of code cos it's in python. That makes very little sense.

-------------- next part --------------
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From fredrik at pythonware.com  Wed Jun 21 18:34:51 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:34:51 +0200
Subject: memory error with zipfile module
In-Reply-To: <44996D90.4000802@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.5938.1148039030.27775.python-list@python.org>	<A4x*kx3gr@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>	<446e07ab$0$12795$636a55ce@news.free.fr>	<1148072514.207383.26370@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<446e51e6$0$6831$636a55ce@news.free.fr>	<d77b42b30606210359s723c047ao7426738e3b87851a@mail.gmail.com>	<e7boll$qa$1@sea.gmane.org>	<4499689D.1000206@gmail.com>	<e7bptn$5pa$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<44996D90.4000802@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e7bsf8$fcm$1@sea.gmane.org>

Hari Sekhon wrote:

> I've seen people using everything from zip to touch, either out of 
> laziness or out of the fact it wouldn't work very well in python, this 
> zip case is a good example.

so based on a limitation in one library, and some random code you've 
seen on the internet, you're making generalizations about the language ?

the zip case is a pretty lousy example, btw; after all, using the 
existing API, it's not that hard to implement an *incremental* read 
function if the provided read-into-string version isn't sufficient:

     import zipfile, zlib

     ##
     # Given a 'zip' instance, copy data from the 'name' to the
     # 'out' stream.

     def explode(out, zip, name):

	zinfo = zip.getinfo(name)

	if zinfo.compress_type == zipfile.ZIP_STORED:
	    decoder = None
	elif zinfo.compress_type == zipfile.ZIP_DEFLATED:
	    decoder = zlib.decompressobj(-zlib.MAX_WBITS)
	else:
	    raise zipfile.BadZipFile("unsupported compression method")

	zip.fp.seek(zinfo.file_offset)

	size = zinfo.compress_size

	while 1:
	    data = zip.fp.read(min(size, 8192))
	    if not data:
		break
	    size -= len(data)
	    if decoder:
		data = decoder.decompress(data)
	    out.write(data)

	if decoder:
	    out.write(decoder.decompress('Z'))
	    out.write(decoder.flush())

</F>



From SeaFuncSpam at gmail.com  Sun Jun 11 05:59:03 2006
From: SeaFuncSpam at gmail.com (Mallor)
Date: 10 Jun 2006 20:59:03 -0700
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


PofN wrote:
>
> Liar. You were never sorry when you troubled us with your posting
> excrements in the past, you are not sorry now.
>
> Liar. You are a net abuser, a kook and a troll. It has nothing to do
> with your writings and style. It has everything to do with your
> vialoation of netiquette, with you x-posting of off-topic messages,
> with your trolling and kookery.
>
> Liear. John asked people do do their duty as net citizens and to report
> a serial net abuser.
>
> Liar. Your whole usenet "career" is build around the posting of
> off-topic messages.
>
> Liar. You were getting out of hand for some time now.
>
> People know very well about you, Xah Lee, the serial newsgroup abuser,
> troll, liar, and kook.
>
> More lies.
>
> I appreciate the courage of John and friends to stand up against
> someone who is out of control. You are not even affraid off accusing
> John of a crime (harrasment) and starting a smear campaing on your web
> site. You have sunken so low that you are fast approaching the earth's
> metal core.

I know I'm coming late to the barbeque.  In passing, I ask: do you have
an objective, impartial perspective on the subject of committing
crimes?  Because libel is a crime.  It all depends on whether what you
state about Xah is provably true or not.  I haven't followed his posts,
but when I hear someone chanting "abuser, troll, liar, kook!" I really
wonder about the accuser.  Anyways, I suppose it's all "sport" until
one of you gets the lawyers involved.


Cheers,
Brandon Van Every



From max at alcyone.com  Sun Jun 11 06:09:53 2006
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 21:09:53 -0700
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <bdqdnRiJa8YJChbZnZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>

Mallor wrote:

> I know I'm coming late to the barbeque.  In passing, I ask: do you have
> an objective, impartial perspective on the subject of committing
> crimes?  Because libel is a crime.

No, it is a tort.

-- 
Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
   Bachelors have consciences, married men have wives.
   -- H.L. Mencken


From flippa at flippac.org  Sun Jun 11 06:14:42 2006
From: flippa at flippac.org (Philippa Cowderoy)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 05:14:42 +0100
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <bdqdnRiJa8YJChbZnZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<bdqdnRiJa8YJChbZnZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110513500.1652@SLINKY>

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006, Erik Max Francis wrote:

> Mallor wrote:
> 
> > I know I'm coming late to the barbeque.  In passing, I ask: do you have
> > an objective, impartial perspective on the subject of committing
> > crimes?  Because libel is a crime.
> 
> No, it is a tort.
> 

Rather a lot depends on which legal system you're in, for a start. 
Including the standards of proof and who the onus is on.

-- 
flippa at flippac.org

Sometimes you gotta fight fire with fire. Most 
of the time you just get burnt worse though.


From max at alcyone.com  Sun Jun 11 06:17:45 2006
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 21:17:45 -0700
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110513500.1652@SLINKY>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<bdqdnRiJa8YJChbZnZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110513500.1652@SLINKY>
Message-ID: <IJWdnXd57J3xBBbZnZ2dnUVZ_qqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>

Philippa Cowderoy wrote:

> Rather a lot depends on which legal system you're in, for a start. 
> Including the standards of proof and who the onus is on.

Oh, no doubt.  But I don't think there's any modern legal system in 
which it's a crime, rather than a tort.  Is there?

Anyway, it's certainly a tort in all relevant jurisdictions here.

-- 
Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
   Covenants without the sword are but words.
   -- Camden


From flippa at flippac.org  Sun Jun 11 06:35:09 2006
From: flippa at flippac.org (Philippa Cowderoy)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 05:35:09 +0100
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <IJWdnXd57J3xBBbZnZ2dnUVZ_qqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<bdqdnRiJa8YJChbZnZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110513500.1652@SLINKY>
	<IJWdnXd57J3xBBbZnZ2dnUVZ_qqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110522400.1652@SLINKY>

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006, Erik Max Francis wrote:

> Philippa Cowderoy wrote:
> 
> > Rather a lot depends on which legal system you're in, for a start. Including
> > the standards of proof and who the onus is on.
> 
> Oh, no doubt.  But I don't think there's any modern legal system in which it's
> a crime, rather than a tort.  Is there?
> 

I'm not aware of a current legal system where it's the case, but I don't 
know the details of many of them.

-- 
flippa at flippac.org

A problem that's all in your head is still a problem.
Brain damage is but one form of mind damage.


From esmond.not.pitt at not.bigpond.com  Sun Jun 11 08:51:29 2006
From: esmond.not.pitt at not.bigpond.com (EJP)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 06:51:29 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110522400.1652@SLINKY>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<bdqdnRiJa8YJChbZnZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110513500.1652@SLINKY>
	<IJWdnXd57J3xBBbZnZ2dnUVZ_qqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110522400.1652@SLINKY>
Message-ID: <R3Pig.7092$ap3.4210@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Philippa Cowderoy wrote:
> I'm not aware of a current legal system where it's the case, but I don't 
> know the details of many of them.

Many states have criminal as well as civil libel. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander_and_libel


From max at alcyone.com  Sun Jun 11 09:11:01 2006
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:11:01 -0700
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <R3Pig.7092$ap3.4210@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<bdqdnRiJa8YJChbZnZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110513500.1652@SLINKY>
	<IJWdnXd57J3xBBbZnZ2dnUVZ_qqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110522400.1652@SLINKY>
	<R3Pig.7092$ap3.4210@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <l-idnbgjgdmVXxbZnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>

EJP wrote:

> Many states have criminal as well as civil libel. 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander_and_libel

The idea of using Wikipedia to back up a legal point is rather amusing 
... but still, none of the relevant parties involved live in countries 
which have any form of criminal libel.

-- 
Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
   To perceive is to suffer.
   -- Aristotle


From esmond.not.pitt at not.bigpond.com  Sun Jun 11 12:49:22 2006
From: esmond.not.pitt at not.bigpond.com (EJP)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 10:49:22 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <l-idnbgjgdmVXxbZnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<bdqdnRiJa8YJChbZnZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110513500.1652@SLINKY>
	<IJWdnXd57J3xBBbZnZ2dnUVZ_qqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110522400.1652@SLINKY>
	<R3Pig.7092$ap3.4210@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
	<l-idnbgjgdmVXxbZnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <SySig.7406$ap3.7106@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Erik Max Francis wrote:
> EJP wrote:
> 
>> Many states have criminal as well as civil libel. 
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander_and_libel
> 
> The idea of using Wikipedia to back up a legal point is rather amusing 
> ... but still, none of the relevant parties involved live in countries 
> which have any form of criminal libel.

OK, OK, just proffered as information, not a conclusive proof. It's the 
*courts* that back up legal points of course, not anything said or found 
here.



From efuzzyone at netscape.net  Tue Jun 13 09:16:49 2006
From: efuzzyone at netscape.net (Surendra Singhi)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:46:49 +0530
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<bdqdnRiJa8YJChbZnZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110513500.1652@SLINKY>
	<IJWdnXd57J3xBBbZnZ2dnUVZ_qqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110522400.1652@SLINKY>
Message-ID: <irn5sexq.fsf@netscape.net>


Its not Xah Lee, who abuses the system. 

But people like "Erik Max Francis" and "Philippa Cowderoy" who carry on
nonsense discussions across mailing lists.

-- 
Surendra Singhi
http://ssinghi.kreeti.com

,----
| WHY SHOULD WE SAVE TIGER?  	
| Ans: Saving the tiger means saving mankind..	
| 
| Help http://pudang.tripod.com/
| or https://secure.worldwildlife.org/forms/tiger_appeal_1.cfm
`----


From sigzero at gmail.com  Mon Jun 12 02:00:00 2006
From: sigzero at gmail.com (Robert Hicks)
Date: 11 Jun 2006 17:00:00 -0700
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <bdqdnRiJa8YJChbZnZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<bdqdnRiJa8YJChbZnZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <1150070400.803537.163570@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>


Erik Max Francis wrote:
> Mallor wrote:
>
> > I know I'm coming late to the barbeque.  In passing, I ask: do you have
> > an objective, impartial perspective on the subject of committing
> > crimes?  Because libel is a crime.
>
> No, it is a tort.
> 
Can I have whipped cream and strawberries on that tort?

:Robert



From mscottschilling at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 11 06:40:39 2006
From: mscottschilling at hotmail.com (Mike Schilling)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 04:40:39 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <b9Nig.145951$F_3.110900@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>


"Mallor" <SeaFuncSpam at gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1149998343.493200.144990 at h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I know I'm coming late to the barbeque.  In passing, I ask: do you have
> an objective, impartial perspective on the subject of committing
> crimes?  Because libel is a crime.  It all depends on whether what you
> state about Xah is provably true or not.

I'm not aware of any definition of libel that includes "making statements 
that are not provably true". 




From flippa at flippac.org  Sun Jun 11 06:50:00 2006
From: flippa at flippac.org (Philippa Cowderoy)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 05:50:00 +0100
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <b9Nig.145951$F_3.110900@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<b9Nig.145951$F_3.110900@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110548540.1652@SLINKY>

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006, Mike Schilling wrote:

> I'm not aware of any definition of libel that includes "making statements 
> that are not provably true". 
> 

I believe UK law uses one that's close to it. 

-- 
flippa at flippac.org

Society does not owe people jobs. 
Society owes it to itself to find people jobs.


From mscottschilling at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 11 08:05:22 2006
From: mscottschilling at hotmail.com (Mike Schilling)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 06:05:22 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<b9Nig.145951$F_3.110900@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110548540.1652@SLINKY>
Message-ID: <CoOig.113949$dW3.83047@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>


"Philippa Cowderoy" <flippa at flippac.org> wrote in message 
news:Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110548540.1652 at SLINKY...
> On Sun, 11 Jun 2006, Mike Schilling wrote:
>
>> I'm not aware of any definition of libel that includes "making statements
>> that are not provably true".
>>
>
> I believe UK law uses one that's close to it.

If I were to write, say, that Tony Blair's tax policy will lead to higher 
deficits, I could be convicted of libel?  Even if that's true, it's not a 
priori provable. 




From max at alcyone.com  Sun Jun 11 08:14:21 2006
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:14:21 -0700
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <CoOig.113949$dW3.83047@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<b9Nig.145951$F_3.110900@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110548540.1652@SLINKY>
	<CoOig.113949$dW3.83047@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <qKmdnUvjhOZZKRbZnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>

Mike Schilling wrote:

> If I were to write, say, that Tony Blair's tax policy will lead to higher 
> deficits, I could be convicted of libel?  Even if that's true, it's not a 
> priori provable. 

I think what he was getting at is that, unlike many jurisdictions, 
writing something factually true is _not_ in and of itself a defense 
against a libel suit in the UK.

As for the reverse side of the issue, in jurisdictions where it _is_ a 
defense, if one were to accuse him of being a pedophile but couldn't 
prove it, that would certainly be an actionable offense.

-- 
Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
   Twenty-four hours a day, three-hundred sixty-five days a year as
   Secretary of Defense, I lived the Cold War. -- Robert S. McNamara


From flippa at flippac.org  Sun Jun 11 08:57:04 2006
From: flippa at flippac.org (Philippa Cowderoy)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:57:04 +0100
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <qKmdnUvjhOZZKRbZnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<b9Nig.145951$F_3.110900@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110548540.1652@SLINKY>
	<CoOig.113949$dW3.83047@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
	<qKmdnUvjhOZZKRbZnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110754070.1652@SLINKY>

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006, Erik Max Francis wrote:

> Mike Schilling wrote:
> 
> > If I were to write, say, that Tony Blair's tax policy will lead to higher
> > deficits, I could be convicted of libel?  Even if that's true, it's not a
> > priori provable. 
> 
> I think what he was getting at is that, unlike many jurisdictions, writing
> something factually true is _not_ in and of itself a defense against a libel
> suit in the UK.
> 

It is. However, the onus is on the defendant to show that it's true, 
rather than on the claimant to show that it's false. I assume the "he" 
refers to Brandon?

-- 
flippa at flippac.org

A problem that's all in your head is still a problem.
Brain damage is but one form of mind damage.


From max at alcyone.com  Sun Jun 11 09:11:28 2006
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:11:28 -0700
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110754070.1652@SLINKY>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<b9Nig.145951$F_3.110900@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110548540.1652@SLINKY>
	<CoOig.113949$dW3.83047@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
	<qKmdnUvjhOZZKRbZnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110754070.1652@SLINKY>
Message-ID: <l-idnbsjgdm_XxbZnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>

Philippa Cowderoy wrote:

> It is. However, the onus is on the defendant to show that it's true, 
> rather than on the claimant to show that it's false.

That also depends on the jurisdiction.

> I assume the "he" 
> refers to Brandon?

No, I was referring to the person who he was replying to, i.e., you.

-- 
Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
   Twenty-four hours a day, three-hundred sixty-five days a year as
   Secretary of Defense, I lived the Cold War. -- Robert S. McNamara


From flippa at flippac.org  Sun Jun 11 09:25:54 2006
From: flippa at flippac.org (Philippa Cowderoy)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 08:25:54 +0100
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <l-idnbsjgdm_XxbZnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<b9Nig.145951$F_3.110900@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110548540.1652@SLINKY>
	<CoOig.113949$dW3.83047@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
	<qKmdnUvjhOZZKRbZnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110754070.1652@SLINKY>
	<l-idnbsjgdm_XxbZnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110825000.1652@SLINKY>

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006, Erik Max Francis wrote:

> Philippa Cowderoy wrote:
> 
> > It is. However, the onus is on the defendant to show that it's true, rather
> > than on the claimant to show that it's false.
> 
> That also depends on the jurisdiction.
> 

Hrmm, does that one differ in Scotland?

> > I assume the "he" refers to Brandon?
> 
> No, I was referring to the person who he was replying to, i.e., you.
> 

Wrong pronoun, then.

-- 
flippa at flippac.org

Society does not owe people jobs. 
Society owes it to itself to find people jobs.


From max at alcyone.com  Sun Jun 11 09:55:34 2006
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:55:34 -0700
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110825000.1652@SLINKY>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<b9Nig.145951$F_3.110900@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110548540.1652@SLINKY>
	<CoOig.113949$dW3.83047@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
	<qKmdnUvjhOZZKRbZnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110754070.1652@SLINKY>
	<l-idnbsjgdm_XxbZnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110825000.1652@SLINKY>
Message-ID: <5smdnb3j67LkURbZnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@speakeasy.net>

Philippa Cowderoy wrote:

> Hrmm, does that one differ in Scotland?

I don't believe so.

> Wrong pronoun, then.

Well, your comment was challenged, and I offered a reasonable 
interpretation of what you might have meant (which indicated a more 
general point in any case, namely that libel law is not quite as simple 
as the original poster was making it out to be).  If you don't wish to 
defend your position, that's fine, but pointing fingers is kind of weird 
at this stage.

-- 
Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
   To perceive is to suffer.
   -- Aristotle


From flippa at flippac.org  Sun Jun 11 10:01:54 2006
From: flippa at flippac.org (Philippa Cowderoy)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 09:01:54 +0100
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <5smdnb3j67LkURbZnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<b9Nig.145951$F_3.110900@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110548540.1652@SLINKY>
	<CoOig.113949$dW3.83047@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
	<qKmdnUvjhOZZKRbZnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110754070.1652@SLINKY>
	<l-idnbsjgdm_XxbZnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110825000.1652@SLINKY>
	<5smdnb3j67LkURbZnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110857110.1652@SLINKY>

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006, Erik Max Francis wrote:

> Philippa Cowderoy wrote:
> 
> > Hrmm, does that one differ in Scotland?
> 
> I don't believe so.
> 

My statement was intended in the context of UK law - I have to admit to 
not knowing too much about what's different north of the border beyond the 
infamous verdict though.

> > Wrong pronoun, then.
> 
> Well, your comment was challenged, and I offered a reasonable interpretation
> of what you might have meant (which indicated a more general point in any
> case, namely that libel law is not quite as simple as the original poster was
> making it out to be).  If you don't wish to defend your position, that's fine,
> but pointing fingers is kind of weird at this stage.
> 

I'd still appreciate being referred to as "she" rather than "he" though.

-- 
flippa at flippac.org

'In Ankh-Morpork even the shit have a street to itself...
 Truly this is a land of opportunity.' - Detritus, Men at Arms


From max at alcyone.com  Sun Jun 11 10:12:52 2006
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:12:52 -0700
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110857110.1652@SLINKY>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<b9Nig.145951$F_3.110900@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110548540.1652@SLINKY>
	<CoOig.113949$dW3.83047@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
	<qKmdnUvjhOZZKRbZnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110754070.1652@SLINKY>
	<l-idnbsjgdm_XxbZnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110825000.1652@SLINKY>
	<5smdnb3j67LkURbZnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110857110.1652@SLINKY>
Message-ID: <Q5ednWpUkecbTRbZnZ2dnUVZ_vadnZ2d@speakeasy.net>

Philippa Cowderoy wrote:

> I'd still appreciate being referred to as "she" rather than "he" though.

Oops, my bad.  Never occurred to me after all these years, which is kind 
of embarrassing, actually :-).

-- 
Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
   Isn't jumping of a bridge / Free fallin'
   -- Sandra St. Victor


From mscottschilling at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 11 17:04:58 2006
From: mscottschilling at hotmail.com (Mike Schilling)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:04:58 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<b9Nig.145951$F_3.110900@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110548540.1652@SLINKY>
	<CoOig.113949$dW3.83047@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
	<qKmdnUvjhOZZKRbZnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <uiWig.43582$fb2.29909@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>


"Erik Max Francis" <max at alcyone.com> wrote in message 
news:qKmdnUvjhOZZKRbZnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d at speakeasy.net...
> Mike Schilling wrote:
>
>> If I were to write, say, that Tony Blair's tax policy will lead to higher 
>> deficits, I could be convicted of libel?  Even if that's true, it's not a 
>> priori provable.
>
> I think what he was getting at is that, unlike many jurisdictions, writing 
> something factually true is _not_ in and of itself a defense against a 
> libel suit in the UK.
>
> As for the reverse side of the issue, in jurisdictions where it _is_ a 
> defense, if one were to accuse him of being a pedophile but couldn't prove 
> it, that would certainly be an actionable offense.

In the U.S, for instance, you wouldn't have to prove it.  It would be 
sufficent to demonstrate that there's enough evidence supporting it that you 
weren't reckless in writing it. 




From gneuner2/ at comcast.net  Mon Jun 12 00:20:42 2006
From: gneuner2/ at comcast.net (George Neuner)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 18:20:42 -0400
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<b9Nig.145951$F_3.110900@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>
	<Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110548540.1652@SLINKY>
	<CoOig.113949$dW3.83047@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <8d2p82pq930hq4klnhbidr0i1t0hd8hqq2@4ax.com>

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 06:05:22 GMT, "Mike Schilling"
<mscottschilling at hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Philippa Cowderoy" <flippa at flippac.org> wrote in message 
>news:Pine.WNT.4.61.0606110548540.1652 at SLINKY...
>> On Sun, 11 Jun 2006, Mike Schilling wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not aware of any definition of libel that includes "making statements
>>> that are not provably true".
>>
>> I believe UK law uses one that's close to it.
>
>If I were to write, say, that Tony Blair's tax policy will lead to higher 
>deficits, I could be convicted of libel?  Even if that's true, it's not a 
>priori provable. 

DISCLAIMER - I AM NOT A LAWYER

In the US, the defense against a libel claim is to prove the statement
or accusation is true.

In the US, libel involves damage to someone's reputation by means of
deliberately false statements or accusations.  Expert opinion is
explicitly protected from libel claims unless it malicious.
Non-expert opinion is generally judged on the intent of the author.
Unprovable supposition is generally held to be non-libelous, however
unprovable accusation is not allowed.

Moreover, in the US, political figures are explicitly denied some (but
not all) libel protections because it is expected that their actions
will cause some measure of public dissent.

I don't know UK defamation law but I suspect it is quite similar to US
law.  In your polite example, your opinion of Tony Blair's policy
would be unprovable supposition at the time of the writing (as would
Blair's own) and would therefore not be libelous.  However, if your
opinion took an accusatory tone saying, for example, that he was
increasing the public deficit to line his pockets, then you had better
be right.

George
--
for email reply remove "/" from address


From jurgenex at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 11 07:40:30 2006
From: jurgenex at hotmail.com (Jürgen Exner)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 05:40:30 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee network abuse
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148495974.975395.12920@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149998343.493200.144990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <i1Oig.409$OL2.96@trnddc06>

Mallor wrote:
> I know I'm coming late to the barbeque.

That's why you are missing the history

> In passing, I ask: do you
> have an objective, impartial perspective on the subject of committing
> crimes?  Because libel is a crime.  It all depends on whether what you
> state about Xah is provably true or not.  I haven't followed his
> posts,

Had you done so, then you wouldn't ask this question.

jue 




From ilias at lazaridis.com  Mon Jun  5 13:05:10 2006
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:05:10 +0300
Subject: John Bokma harassment
In-Reply-To: <1149083474.097849.262460@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149083474.097849.262460@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e61356$mad$1@mouse.otenet.gr>

Xah Lee wrote:
> Thanks to the great many people who has written to my ISP in support of
[...]

> As to dreamhost my webhosting company canceling my account, i will try
> to reason with them, and see what is the final outcome. They have the
> legal right to kick me because in the contract that allowed them to do
> so with 30 days advanced noticed and without cause. However, it is my
> interest and my right, if they actually do kick me in the end, i'll try
> to contact Electronic Frontier Foundation and Better Business bureau
> for whatever advice or action i can solicit. Meanwhile, if you do know
> a web hosting company that can take some 80 G of bandwidth/month for
> less than $25 a month, please let me know! (i do hope if someone here
> runs a hosting business and can host my site. I will certainly return
> the favor.)
[...]

> Xah Lee wrote:
[...]

>> I wrote some full detail here:
>> http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t2/harassment.html
>>
>> If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust,
>> please write to my web hosting provider abuse at dreamhost.com
>>
>> Your help is appreciated. Thank you.

HOST - dreamhost.com / Liberality (Hosting, Basic Requirement)
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_frm/thread/25618913752c457a

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com


From usenet at local.machine  Mon Jun  5 14:11:34 2006
From: usenet at local.machine (=?ISO-8859-2?Q?Dra=BEen_Gemi=E6?=)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:11:34 +0200
Subject: John Bokma harassment
In-Reply-To: <e61356$mad$1@mouse.otenet.gr>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1148459377.384317.100730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149083474.097849.262460@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<e61356$mad$1@mouse.otenet.gr>
Message-ID: <e616bm$5s1$2@magcargo.vodatel.hr>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Xah Lee wrote:
>> for whatever advice or action i can solicit. Meanwhile, if you do know
>> a web hosting company that can take some 80 G of bandwidth/month for
>> less than $25 a month, please let me know! (i do hope if someone here
>> runs a hosting business and can host my site. I will certainly return
>> the favor.)

80 Gb/month ? He intends to write a lot of spam.....

DG


From stormtoad at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 01:21:01 2006
From: stormtoad at gmail.com (Stormcoder)
Date: 5 Jun 2006 16:21:01 -0700
Subject: Software Needs Philosophers
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<thce729muuuvpgacugld5h3frvflumubvt@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1149549661.721778.8200@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

He means Lisp macros. Lisp macros are nothing like the crippled C++
macros that people tend to think of.

Roedy Green wrote:
> On 21 May 2006 02:15:31 -0700, "Xah Lee" <xah at xahlee.org> wrote,
> quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>
> Java has lots of macro languages, including C++'s preprocessor. What
> it does not have is a sanctioned one.  It has instead on-the-fly code
> generation. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/onthefly.html
>
>
> --
> Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
> http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.



From xah at xahlee.org  Thu Jun  8 03:35:52 2006
From: xah at xahlee.org (Xah Lee)
Date: 7 Jun 2006 18:35:52 -0700
Subject: =?utf-8?B?VGhlIE5hdHVyZSBvZiB0aGUg4oCcVW5peCBQaGlsb3NvcGh54oCd?=
In-Reply-To: <1149080931.582431.95560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149080931.582431.95560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149730552.161534.121350@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

The Nature of the ?Unix Philosophy?

Xah Lee, 2006-05

In the computing industry, especially among unix community, we often
hear that there's a ?Unix Philosophy?. In this essay, i dissect the
nature and characterization of such ?unix philosophy?, as have been
described by Brian Kernighan, Rob Pike, Dennis Ritchie, Ken Thompson,
and Richard P Gabriel et al, and in recent years by Eric Raymond.

There is no one definite set of priciples that is the so-called ?unix
philosophy?, but rather, it consistest of various slogans developed
over the decades by unix programers that purport to describe the way
unix is supposed to have been designed. The characteristics include:
?keep it simple?, ?make it fast?, ?keep it small?, ?make
it work on 99% of cases, but generality and correctness are less
important?, ?diversity rules?, ?User interface is not
important, raw power is good?, ?everything should be a file?,
?architecture is less important than immediate workability?. Often,
these are expressed by chantible slogans that exhibits juvenile humor,
such as ?small is beautiful?, ?KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid)?.

Suppose, we take a team of student programers to produce a large
software system. When the software is done, give it to software critics
to analyze and come up with some principles that characterize its
design decisions, without disclosing the nature of the programers. The
characterization of such software, will more or less fit the
descriptions of the ?Unix Philosophy? as described in different
ways by various unix celebrities.

For example, it would focus on implementation simplicity as opposed to
interface simplicity. It will not be consistent in user interface, but
exhibits rawness. It would be correct only for most cases, as opposed
to mathematically correct or generic. It would employee simplistic data
structures and formats such as text-files, as opposed to a structured
system or binary format that requires a spec. It would be speedy, but
less on scalability. It would consists of many small programs, as
opposed to one large system with inter-dependent components. It would
be easy to patch and port, but difficult to upgrade its structure or
adapt entirely new assumptions.

The essence of this theory is that when a software is produced for real
world use, it is necessary that it works in some acceptable way,
otherwise the software will be continuously debugged and refined. A
software system written by a bunch of student or otherwise
under-educated programers, but refined long enough for acceptably
practical, real world use, will necessarily develop characteristics
that is known as the Unix Philosophy.
----
This article is archived at:
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/unix_phil.html

   Xah
   xah at xahlee.org
 ? http://xahlee.org/



From invalid at invalid.net  Thu Jun  8 03:52:53 2006
From: invalid at invalid.net (Frank Silvermann)
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 21:52:53 -0400
Subject: The Nature of the =?UTF-8?B?4oCcVW5peCBQaGlsb3NvcGh54oCd?=
In-Reply-To: <1149730552.161534.121350@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149080931.582431.95560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149730552.161534.121350@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4487822b$0$30709$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com>

Xah Lee wrote:
> The Nature of the ?Unix Philosophy?
> 
> Xah Lee, 2006-05
> 
> In the computing industry, especially among unix community, we often
> hear that there's a ?Unix Philosophy?. In this essay, i dissect the
> nature and characterization of such ?unix philosophy?, as have been
> described by Brian Kernighan, Rob Pike, Dennis Ritchie, Ken Thompson,
> and Richard P Gabriel et al, and in recent years by Eric Raymond.
> Unix Philosophy.
> ----
> This article is archived at:
> http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/unix_phil.html
> 
>    Xah
>    xah at xahlee.org
>  ? http://xahlee.org/
> 
Sigma may impress some, but it does not impress me until you realize 
that philosophers can't count.  That you have lower-case for the first 
person nominative pronoun is one thing, but that you have a difference 
in subject versus predicate is certainly something that Confucious 
criticizes.  frank
------------------
tja


From kst-u at mib.org  Thu Jun  8 04:21:42 2006
From: kst-u at mib.org (Keith Thompson)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 02:21:42 GMT
Subject: The Nature of the =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=9CUnix_Philosophy=E2=80=9D?=
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149080931.582431.95560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149730552.161534.121350@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <lnirncidzf.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org>

"Xah Lee" <xah at xahlee.org> writes:
> The Nature of the ?Unix Philosophy?
>
> Xah Lee, 2006-05

                                  ___________________
                          /|  /|  |                  |
                          ||__||  |      Please do   |
                         /   O O\__         NOT      |
                        /          \     feed the    |
                       /      \     \     trolls     |
                      /   _    \     \ ______________|
                     /    |\____\     \     ||
                    /     | | | |\____/     ||
                   /       \|_|_|/   \    __||
                  /  /  \            |____| ||
                 /   |   | /|        |      --|
                 |   |   |//         |____  --|
          * _    |  |_|_|_|          |     \-/
       *-- _--\ _ \     //           |
         /  _     \\ _ //   |        /
       *  /   \_ /- | -     |       |
         *      ___ c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c____________

(If you *must* post followups, please drop comp.lang.c from the
Newsgroups: header -- which doesn't imply that this is topical in any
of the other newsgroups to which it's posted.)

Xah: please consider creating your own newsgroup under alt.*.  You can
post your long essays there and (if you absolutely insist on doing so)
post pointers to them elsewhere.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u at mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center             <*>  <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this.


From NOS at Utel.no  Thu Jun  8 09:28:08 2006
From: NOS at Utel.no (=?UTF-8?B?Ik5pbHMgTy4gU2Vsw6VzZGFsIg==?=)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 09:28:08 +0200
Subject: The Nature of the =?UTF-8?B?4oCcVW5peCBQaGlsb3NvcGh54oCd?=
In-Reply-To: <1149730552.161534.121350@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149080931.582431.95560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149730552.161534.121350@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4487d188$1@news.broadpark.no>

Xah Lee wrote:
> The Nature of the ?Unix Philosophy?
> 
> Xah Lee, 2006-05
> 
> In the computing industry, especially among unix community, we often
> hear that there's a ?Unix Philosophy?. In this essay, i dissect the
> nature and characterization of such ?unix philosophy?, as have been
> described by Brian Kernighan, Rob Pike, Dennis Ritchie, Ken Thompson,
> and Richard P Gabriel et al, and in recent years by Eric Raymond.
> 
> There is no one definite set of priciples that is the so-called ?unix
> philosophy?, but rather, it consistest of various slogans developed
> over the decades by unix programers that purport to describe the way
> unix is supposed to have been designed. The characteristics include:
> ?keep it simple?, ?make it fast?, ?keep it small?, ?make
> it work on 99% of cases, but generality and correctness are less
> important?, ?diversity rules?, ?User interface is not
> important, raw power is good?, ?everything should be a file?,
> ?architecture is less important than immediate workability?. Often,
> these are expressed by chantible slogans that exhibits juvenile humor,
> such as ?small is beautiful?, ?KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid)?.

Perhaps you should take a peek at the ideas in Plan 9 from Bell Labs,
which is  a continuation of this philosophy, unlike the "modern" unix
clones.


From invalid at invalid.net  Thu Jun  8 15:25:40 2006
From: invalid at invalid.net (Frank Silvermann)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 09:25:40 -0400
Subject: The Nature of the =?UTF-8?B?4oCcVW5peCBQaGlsb3NvcGh54oCd?=
In-Reply-To: <4487d188$1@news.broadpark.no>
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149080931.582431.95560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149730552.161534.121350@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<4487d188$1@news.broadpark.no>
Message-ID: <44882412$0$20779$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com>

Nils O. Sel?sdal wrote:
> Xah Lee wrote:
>> The Nature of the ?Unix Philosophy?
[snip]

> Perhaps you should take a peek at the ideas in Plan 9 from Bell Labs,
> which is  a continuation of this philosophy, unlike the "modern" unix
> clones.
Is there an actual Plan 9?  I'm only aware of the one from Outer Space. 
  frank


From rlb at hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl  Thu Jun  8 15:41:13 2006
From: rlb at hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl (Richard Bos)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 13:41:13 GMT
Subject: The Nature of the =?UTF-8?B?4oCcVW5peCBQaGlsb3NvcGh54oCd?=
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149080931.582431.95560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149730552.161534.121350@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<4487d188$1@news.broadpark.no>
	<44882412$0$20779$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com>
Message-ID: <448828bb.84747014@news.xs4all.nl>

Frank Silvermann <invalid at invalid.net> wrote:

> Nils O. Sel??sdal wrote:
> > Xah Lee wrote:
> >> The Nature of the ???Unix Philosophy???
> 
> > Perhaps you should take a peek at the ideas in Plan 9 from Bell Labs,
> > which is  a continuation of this philosophy, unlike the "modern" unix
> > clones.
> Is there an actual Plan 9?  I'm only aware of the one from Outer Space. 

<http://cm.bell-labs.com/plan9/>.

But directing the OP there would be futile, as is discussing such
off-topic matter on comp.lang.c.

Richard


From william at 25thandClement.com  Fri Jun  9 06:33:21 2006
From: william at 25thandClement.com (William Ahern)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 21:33:21 -0700
Subject: The Nature of the =?iso-8859-13?q?=B4Unix_Philosophy=A1?=
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149080931.582431.95560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149730552.161534.121350@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<4487d188$1@news.broadpark.no>
	<44882412$0$20779$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com>
	<448828bb.84747014@news.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <pan.2006.06.09.04.33.16.850091@25thandClement.com>

On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 13:41:13 +0000, Richard Bos wrote:

> Frank Silvermann <invalid at invalid.net> wrote:
> 
>> Nils O. Sel??sdal wrote:
>> > Xah Lee wrote:
>> >> The Nature of the ???Unix Philosophy???
>> 
>> > Perhaps you should take a peek at the ideas in Plan 9 from Bell Labs,
>> > which is  a continuation of this philosophy, unlike the "modern" unix
>> > clones.
>> Is there an actual Plan 9?  I'm only aware of the one from Outer Space.
> 
> <http://cm.bell-labs.com/plan9/>.
> 
> But directing the OP there would be futile, as is discussing such
> off-topic matter on comp.lang.c.
> 
> Richard

Not totally off-topic. The Plan 9 "C" compiler supports some noteworthy
additions and changes to the language. Certainly, in contrast, elucidative
of standard C. Plus, you gotta love anonymous structures and unions ;)
GCC supports them, and so does TinyCC I think.



From pjb at informatimago.com  Thu Jun  8 15:46:56 2006
From: pjb at informatimago.com (Pascal Bourguignon)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 15:46:56 +0200
Subject: The Nature of the =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=9CUnix_Philosophy=E2=80=9D?=
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149080931.582431.95560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149730552.161534.121350@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<4487d188$1@news.broadpark.no>
	<44882412$0$20779$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com>
Message-ID: <878xo7sqsv.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>

Frank Silvermann <invalid at invalid.net> writes:

> Nils O. Sel?sdal wrote:
>> Xah Lee wrote:
>>> The Nature of the ?Unix Philosophy?
> [snip]
>
>> Perhaps you should take a peek at the ideas in Plan 9 from Bell Labs,
>> which is  a continuation of this philosophy, unlike the "modern" unix
>> clones.
> Is there an actual Plan 9?  I'm only aware of the one from Outer
> Space. frank

No, there is no _actual_ Plan 9.  The OS named "Plan 9" is named after
the Outer Space one.

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

ATTENTION: Despite any other listing of product contents found
herein, the consumer is advised that, in actuality, this product
consists of 99.9999999999% empty space.


From albalmer at att.net  Thu Jun  8 18:21:44 2006
From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 16:21:44 GMT
Subject: The Nature of the “Unix Philosophy”
References: <1148202931.643116.41150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149080931.582431.95560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149730552.161534.121350@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <ujjg82pmaphk580qg51v9hslr7fmr0h5db@4ax.com>

On 7 Jun 2006 18:35:52 -0700, "Xah Lee" <xah at xahlee.org> wrote:

>The Nature of the ?Unix Philosophy?

Good grief. Him again.

-- 
Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ


From vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jun  1 00:05:13 2006
From: vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk (Vinay Sajip)
Date: 31 May 2006 15:05:13 -0700
Subject: logging
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6338.1149025330.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6101.1148366215.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1148426018.334087.124160@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6143.1148460752.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1148577240.250304.116360@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6265.1148690064.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149005605.819519.242350@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6338.1149025330.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149113113.083677.235570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

ibr at radix50.net wrote:

> Hello Vinay,
>
> Hmm, log1 decides once whether to print an event, and after that it gets
> printed in log1 and all its ancestors, regardless of their level? I find
> this quite counter-intuitive. I'd instead expect that each logger
> decides whether to print an event according to its own level. Could you
> give an example why one would want the python behavior?

Loggers are hierarchical for a reason - not just randomly named
channels. Just as it is generally useful to develop a system by
modularising it into subsystems, packages, modules, etc. so it is
useful when logging to follow a parallel hierarchy. The audiences for
the logging events are orthogonal to the events themselves, and the way
the logging module is organised reflects good practice as determined by
practical experience over a period of time. The approach you're
questioning is not specific to Python - log4j (which inspired Python's
logging), and the logging built into Java 1.4, also work this way.
Practically, this makes configuration a lot simpler; if I want to log
everything to console, I just attach a handler to the root logger, and
I never have to worry about attaching to every single logger. (Logger
names are generally not cast in stone - I might break down a module's
logic into smaller pieces and thus introduce new logger names to
describe events in the refactored module. I certainly don't want to
change my logging configuration every time I refactor my code.)

May I suggest you review the log4j documentation to get a better
exposition of the principles which govern the design of such logging
systems.



From ibr at radix50.net  Sat Jun  3 13:04:10 2006
From: ibr at radix50.net (Baurzhan Ismagulov)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 13:04:10 +0200
Subject: logging
In-Reply-To: <1149113113.083677.235570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.6101.1148366215.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1148426018.334087.124160@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6143.1148460752.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1148577240.250304.116360@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6265.1148690064.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149005605.819519.242350@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6338.1149025330.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149113113.083677.235570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20060603110410.GA30398@radix50.net>

Hello Vinay,

On Wed, May 31, 2006 at 03:05:13PM -0700, Vinay Sajip wrote:
> > Hmm, log1 decides once whether to print an event, and after that it gets
> > printed in log1 and all its ancestors, regardless of their level? I find
> > this quite counter-intuitive. I'd instead expect that each logger
> > decides whether to print an event according to its own level. Could you
> > give an example why one would want the python behavior?
> 
> Loggers are hierarchical for a reason - not just randomly named
> channels. ...

Thanks for the explanation! Please note that I am not questioning the
usefulness of hierarchical logging -- I think it's a Good Thing. What I
can't understand is the motivation for the single place of decision
whether a message should be printed ("is enabled" in log4j terms) or
not.

Consider the following scenario: root is CRITICAL, l01 is DEBUG, a debug
message is logged on l01. l01 decides that the message should be
printed, and _both_ root and l01 print it. Now, it is good that the
message is propagated to root, but why doesn't root decide for itself
whether to print it or not?

For instance, I log root to syslog and have only critical messages
there. I log l01 to console to debug. I want that my message to l01 is
not printed by root since its level is CRITICAL. This is why I want that
each logger re-evaluates the message level for itself. Could you perhaps
give a useful example why one could want loggers to decide once?


And another thing I couldn't find how to do: I want to have several
debug levels. I can log messages without problems, but numeric values in
the configuration file cause error messages during
logging.config.fileConfig. Can I specify numeric values in the config
file?


With kind regards,
Baurzhan.


From vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jun  4 14:23:55 2006
From: vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk (Vinay Sajip)
Date: 4 Jun 2006 05:23:55 -0700
Subject: logging
References: <mailman.6101.1148366215.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1148426018.334087.124160@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6143.1148460752.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1148577240.250304.116360@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6265.1148690064.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149005605.819519.242350@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6338.1149025330.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149113113.083677.235570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6491.1149332668.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149423835.166446.126240@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Hello Baurzhan,

> Consider the following scenario: root is CRITICAL, l01 is DEBUG, a debug
> message is logged on l01. l01 decides that the message should be
> printed, and _both_ root and l01 print it. Now, it is good that the
> message is propagated to root, but why doesn't root decide for itself
> whether to print it or not?

It's not propagated to the root logger (or to ancestor loggers in
general) - just to the handlers associated with ancestor loggers.

> For instance, I log root to syslog and have only critical messages
> there. I log l01 to console to debug. I want that my message to l01 is
> not printed by root since its level is CRITICAL. This is why I want that
> each logger re-evaluates the message level for itself. Could you perhaps
> give a useful example why one could want loggers to decide once?

You can set levels on handlers as well as loggers. So if you add a
syslog handler to the root and set its level to CRITICAL, only CRITICAL
messages are sent to syslog.

> And another thing I couldn't find how to do: I want to have several
> debug levels. I can log messages without problems, but numeric values in
> the configuration file cause error messages during
> logging.config.fileConfig. Can I specify numeric values in the config
> file?

You should use addLevelName to add custom levels. You can do e.g.

logging.MYCUSTOMLEVEL  = 25
logging.addLevelName(logging.MYCUSTOMLEVEL, "MYCUSTOMLEVEL")

and then reference MYCUSTOMLEVEL in the config file.

Regards,

Vinay



From ibr at radix50.net  Mon Jun  5 19:19:51 2006
From: ibr at radix50.net (Baurzhan Ismagulov)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 19:19:51 +0200
Subject: logging
In-Reply-To: <1149423835.166446.126240@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.6101.1148366215.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1148426018.334087.124160@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6143.1148460752.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1148577240.250304.116360@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6265.1148690064.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149005605.819519.242350@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6338.1149025330.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149113113.083677.235570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6491.1149332668.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149423835.166446.126240@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20060605171951.GA14461@radix50.net>

Hello Vinay,

On Sun, Jun 04, 2006 at 05:23:55AM -0700, Vinay Sajip wrote:
> It's not propagated to the root logger (or to ancestor loggers in
> general) - just to the handlers associated with ancestor loggers.
...
> You can set levels on handlers as well as loggers. So if you add a
> syslog handler to the root and set its level to CRITICAL, only CRITICAL
> messages are sent to syslog.
...
> logging.MYCUSTOMLEVEL  = 25
> logging.addLevelName(logging.MYCUSTOMLEVEL, "MYCUSTOMLEVEL")

Thanks much!

With kind regards,
Baurzhan.


From martin.wiechert at gmx.de  Sun Jun  4 16:17:08 2006
From: martin.wiechert at gmx.de (Martin Wiechert)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:17:08 +0200
Subject: linking errors with debug build of Python2.4.3
In-Reply-To: <1148781211.487215.260090@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.6150.1148482197.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1148781211.487215.260090@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <200606041617.09198.martin.wiechert@gmx.de>

You were right, leaving out --with-pydebug did the trick.

Thanks, Martin


On Sunday 28 May 2006 03:53, nnorwitz at gmail.com wrote:
> Martin Wiechert wrote:
> > Hi list,
> >
> > I've created a fresh build of Python 2.4.3 using the following
> > configuration
> >
> > $ ./configure --with-pydebug --prefix=/usr/local/debug --enable-shared
> > --with-fpectl --with-signal-module
> >
> > What did I do wrong?
>
> Try with just:  ./configure --with-pydebug --prefix=/usr/local/debug
>
> I think the problem is --enable-shared.  I'm not sure what you are
> doing, but you probably don't need the other options.  The signal
> module should always be built, I've never even seen the
> --with-signal-module option. :-)
>
> n


From martin.wiechert at gmx.de  Mon Jun  5 19:47:30 2006
From: martin.wiechert at gmx.de (Martin Wiechert)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:47:30 +0200
Subject: linking errors with debug build of Python2.4.3
In-Reply-To: <200606041617.09198.martin.wiechert@gmx.de>
References: <mailman.6150.1148482197.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1148781211.487215.260090@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<200606041617.09198.martin.wiechert@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <200606051947.31136.martin.wiechert@gmx.de>

Nonsense! I meant leaving out --enable-shared.

On Sunday 04 June 2006 16:17, Martin Wiechert wrote:
> You were right, leaving out --with-pydebug did the trick.
>
> Thanks, Martin
>
> On Sunday 28 May 2006 03:53, nnorwitz at gmail.com wrote:
> > Martin Wiechert wrote:
> > > Hi list,
> > >
> > > I've created a fresh build of Python 2.4.3 using the following
> > > configuration
> > >
> > > $ ./configure --with-pydebug --prefix=/usr/local/debug --enable-shared
> > > --with-fpectl --with-signal-module
> > >
> > > What did I do wrong?
> >
> > Try with just:  ./configure --with-pydebug --prefix=/usr/local/debug
> >
> > I think the problem is --enable-shared.  I'm not sure what you are
> > doing, but you probably don't need the other options.  The signal
> > module should always be built, I've never even seen the
> > --with-signal-module option. :-)
> >
> > n


From jjl at pobox.com  Fri Jun  2 00:08:25 2006
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 01 Jun 2006 22:08:25 +0000
Subject: urllib2 and HTTP 302
References: <4476C7A6.5040506@designaproduct.biz>
Message-ID: <8764jkedgm.fsf@pobox.com>

Laszlo Nagy <gandalf at designaproduct.biz> writes:
[...]
> how can I return the redirection URL?
> I tried to get this information from the exception but I could not. Is 
> it possible to read it from the openerdirector?
> Any suggestions?
> 
> 
>             try:
>                self.post_multipart(
>                     url,
>                     [('uploadType','Inventory')],
>                     [('uploadFileName','inv.txt',fdata)]
>                 )
>             except urllib2.HTTPError, e:
>                 if e.code == 302:
>                     return "I would like to get the URL to be redirected 
> to...."
>                 else:
>                     raise                        

redirected_url = e.geturl()


John



From jjlee at reportlab.com  Mon Jun  5 21:14:59 2006
From: jjlee at reportlab.com (John J. Lee)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:14:59 GMT
Subject: urllib2 and HTTP 302
References: <4476C7A6.5040506@designaproduct.biz>
	<mailman.6433.1149199738.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <873beje7nw.fsf@reportlab.com>

jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee) writes:

> Laszlo Nagy <gandalf at designaproduct.biz> writes:
> [...]
> > how can I return the redirection URL?
> > I tried to get this information from the exception but I could not. Is 
> > it possible to read it from the openerdirector?
> > Any suggestions?
> > 
> > 
> >             try:
> >                self.post_multipart(
> >                     url,
> >                     [('uploadType','Inventory')],
> >                     [('uploadFileName','inv.txt',fdata)]
> >                 )
> >             except urllib2.HTTPError, e:
> >                 if e.code == 302:
> >                     return "I would like to get the URL to be redirected 
> > to...."
> >                 else:
> >                     raise                        
> 
> redirected_url = e.geturl()

Sorry, didn't read that properly.

If your OpenerDirector instance has an HTTPRedirectHandler, you should
be able to get the final redirected URL the way I said (using
.geturl()).  If it doesn't (which I assume is true in your case -- why
else would you be checking for a 302 status), well, you just have to
do exactly the same thing that HTTPRedirectHandler does :-) Use the
source luke.


John


From rupole at hotmail.com  Thu Jun  1 05:37:55 2006
From: rupole at hotmail.com (Roger Upole)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 23:37:55 -0400
Subject: WinPops
References: <mailman.6230.1148640634.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149132789_5889@sp6iad.superfeed.net>


"Hari Sekhon" <sekhon.hari at googlemail.com> wrote in message news:mailman.6230.1148640634.27775.python-list at python.org...
> Hi,
>   Is there a way of sending winpops (Windows Pop-Up / Net Send messages) in python?
>
> Perhaps some library or something that I can use under both Windows and Linux?
>
> Hari

On Windows, you can use win32net.NetMessageBufferSend.

        Roger




----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---


From peter-gsellmann at eunet.at  Thu Jun  1 23:16:17 2006
From: peter-gsellmann at eunet.at (Peter Gsellmann)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 23:16:17 +0200
Subject: WinPops
References: <mailman.6230.1148640634.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149132789_5889@sp6iad.superfeed.net>
Message-ID: <447f5781$0$15793$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>

Roger Upole wrote:

> 
> "Hari Sekhon" <sekhon.hari at googlemail.com> wrote in message
> news:mailman.6230.1148640634.27775.python-list at python.org...
>> Hi,
>>   Is there a way of sending winpops (Windows Pop-Up / Net Send messages)
>>   in python?
>>
>> Perhaps some library or something that I can use under both Windows and
>> Linux?
>>
>> Hari
> 
> On Windows, you can use win32net.NetMessageBufferSend.
> 
>         Roger
> 
On Linux, i use the smbclient binary:
  from subprocess import *
  q=Popen(['smbclient','-M','maggy'],stdin=PIPE)
  q.stdin.write('hello!')
  q.stdin.close()
  q.wait()

Peter


From sekhon.hari at googlemail.com  Wed Jun 21 12:44:32 2006
From: sekhon.hari at googlemail.com (Hari Sekhon)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:44:32 +0100
Subject: WinPops
In-Reply-To: <447f5781$0$15793$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
References: <mailman.6230.1148640634.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149132789_5889@sp6iad.superfeed.net>
	<447f5781$0$15793$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
Message-ID: <d77b42b30606210344r60907eafm9633a0afc2d5407d@mail.gmail.com>

If you were going to do this you may as well just do something like

if sys.platform='win32':
    os.system('net send <somemachine> <somemessage>')
elif sys.platform[:5]='linux'
   os.system('smblcient -M <machine> etc...')

This would be more portable and simpler than the alternatives I've seen.

It would be better if there was just a cross platform library for this
protocol so you could just

import winpop
winpop.send (host,message)


Too much to ask?

Hari


On 01/06/06, Peter Gsellmann <peter-gsellmann at eunet.at> wrote:
>
> Roger Upole wrote:
>
> >
> > "Hari Sekhon" <sekhon.hari at googlemail.com> wrote in message
> > news:mailman.6230.1148640634.27775.python-list at python.org...
> >> Hi,
> >>   Is there a way of sending winpops (Windows Pop-Up / Net Send
> messages)
> >>   in python?
> >>
> >> Perhaps some library or something that I can use under both Windows and
> >> Linux?
> >>
> >> Hari
> >
> > On Windows, you can use win32net.NetMessageBufferSend.
> >
> >         Roger
> >
> On Linux, i use the smbclient binary:
>   from subprocess import *
>   q=Popen(['smbclient','-M','maggy'],stdin=PIPE)
>   q.stdin.write('hello!')
>   q.stdin.close()
>   q.wait()
>
> Peter
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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From iainking at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 14:48:16 2006
From: iainking at gmail.com (Iain King)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 05:48:16 -0700
Subject: Trying to get FreeImagePy to work.
In-Reply-To: <upFdg.13645$jP5.321123@twister1.libero.it>
References: <1148651668.578852.3160@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<7fEdg.13375$cX1.201311@twister2.libero.it>
	<1148655611.990937.322350@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<upFdg.13645$jP5.321123@twister1.libero.it>
Message-ID: <1149166096.176405.22780@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Michele Petrazzo wrote:
> Iain King wrote:
> > Michele Petrazzo wrote:
> >
> > I downloaded and installed 0.9.9.3, and it now works.  Thanks!
> >
>
> I advice you to don't use that ctypes version... Better is to use the
> newest one and update freeimagepy!
>
> > Iain
> >
>
> Michele

OK, Ive installed the latest versions I can find, which are FreeImagePy
1.2.4 and ctypes 0.9.9.6, and I'm back to the error I had earlier.  Do
you know what's wrong?

Iain



From michele.petrazzo at TOGLIunipex.it  Thu Jun  1 16:27:11 2006
From: michele.petrazzo at TOGLIunipex.it (Michele Petrazzo)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:27:11 GMT
Subject: Trying to get FreeImagePy to work.
In-Reply-To: <1149166096.176405.22780@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1148651668.578852.3160@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<7fEdg.13375$cX1.201311@twister2.libero.it>
	<1148655611.990937.322350@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<upFdg.13645$jP5.321123@twister1.libero.it>
	<1149166096.176405.22780@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <3PCfg.20835$cX1.315781@twister2.libero.it>

Iain King wrote:
> Michele Petrazzo wrote:
>> Iain King wrote:
>>> Michele Petrazzo wrote:
>>> 
>>> I downloaded and installed 0.9.9.3, and it now works.  Thanks!
>>> 
>> I advice you to don't use that ctypes version... Better is to use 
>> the newest one and update freeimagepy!
>> 
>>> Iain
>>> 
>> Michele
> 
> OK, Ive installed the latest versions I can find, which are 
> FreeImagePy 1.2.4 and ctypes 0.9.9.6, and I'm back to the error I had
>  earlier.  Do you know what's wrong?
> 
> Iain
> 

Can you download the last svn version from sf.net? Otherwise I'll send
you the last sources privately.

Bye,
Michele


From iainking at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 17:15:38 2006
From: iainking at gmail.com (Iain King)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 08:15:38 -0700
Subject: Trying to get FreeImagePy to work.
In-Reply-To: <3PCfg.20835$cX1.315781@twister2.libero.it>
References: <1148651668.578852.3160@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<7fEdg.13375$cX1.201311@twister2.libero.it>
	<1148655611.990937.322350@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<upFdg.13645$jP5.321123@twister1.libero.it>
	<1149166096.176405.22780@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<3PCfg.20835$cX1.315781@twister2.libero.it>
Message-ID: <1149174938.337973.85950@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>


Michele Petrazzo wrote:
> Iain King wrote:
> > Michele Petrazzo wrote:
> >> Iain King wrote:
> >>> Michele Petrazzo wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I downloaded and installed 0.9.9.3, and it now works.  Thanks!
> >>>
> >> I advice you to don't use that ctypes version... Better is to use
> >> the newest one and update freeimagepy!
> >>
> >>> Iain
> >>>
> >> Michele
> >
> > OK, Ive installed the latest versions I can find, which are
> > FreeImagePy 1.2.4 and ctypes 0.9.9.6, and I'm back to the error I had
> >  earlier.  Do you know what's wrong?
> >
> > Iain
> >
>
> Can you download the last svn version from sf.net? Otherwise I'll send
> you the last sources privately.
>
> Bye,
> Michele

Sorry, I hadn't heard of SVN before, so I didn't know what you were
talking about earlier :).  I got the TortoiseSVN client though, and
checked out your newest build, copied it over the top of
site-packages/freeimagepy, updated my ctypes back to 0.9.9.6 (I'd
regressed again), ran my program, and it worked.  Thanks!

Next question (and what I'm using FreeImagePy for):  I'm loading a pile
of TIF's as thumbnails into a wx list control.  I load the image with
FIPY, convert it to PIL, use PIL's antialiasing thumbnail function,
then load it from there into wx.  However, when I'm do the
fipy.convertToPil(), it inverts the image?  I've inserted a
fipy.invert() before the conversion as a temporary fix, but is there a
reason for this?
relevant code:

def getHeaders(files):
	thumbs = []
	for f in files:
		print "Adding %s" % f
		fi = FIPY.Image(f)
		fi.setCurrentPage(0)
		fi.invert() #temp fix
		thumb = fi.convertToPil()
		thumb.thumbnail(THUMBNAIL_SIZE, Image.ANTIALIAS)
		thumbs.append((os.path.basename(f), pilToBitmap(thumb)))
	thumbs.sort()
	return thumbs

Iain

p.s. thanks again



From michele.petrazzo at TOGLIunipex.it  Thu Jun  1 18:42:50 2006
From: michele.petrazzo at TOGLIunipex.it (Michele Petrazzo)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:42:50 GMT
Subject: Trying to get FreeImagePy to work.
In-Reply-To: <1149174938.337973.85950@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1148651668.578852.3160@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<7fEdg.13375$cX1.201311@twister2.libero.it>
	<1148655611.990937.322350@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<upFdg.13645$jP5.321123@twister1.libero.it>
	<1149166096.176405.22780@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<3PCfg.20835$cX1.315781@twister2.libero.it>
	<1149174938.337973.85950@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <eOEfg.20782$jP5.517557@twister1.libero.it>

Iain King wrote:
>> Can you download the last svn version from sf.net? Otherwise I'll send
>> you the last sources privately.
>>
>> Bye,
>> Michele
> 

> I got the TortoiseSVN client though, and
> checked out your newest build, copied it over the top of
> site-packages/freeimagepy, updated my ctypes back to 0.9.9.6 (I'd
> regressed again), ran my program, and it worked.  Thanks!

This is a good news!

> Next question (and what I'm using FreeImagePy for):  I'm loading a pile
> of TIF's as thumbnails into a wx list control.  I load the image with
> FIPY, convert it to PIL, use PIL's antialiasing thumbnail function,
> then load it from there into wx.  

Why use PIL for it and not FIPY directly? You can use the image.size or 
the other methods for resize the image

> However, when I'm do the
> fipy.convertToPil(), it inverts the image?  

No, it not invert the image... It only return the image as is.

> I've inserted a
> fipy.invert() before the conversion as a temporary fix, but is there a
> reason for this?

If you are have a min-is-white image (fax ?) that isn't the standard,
you will have an "inverted" image, because PIl expect a min-is-black
image!

> relevant code:
> 
> def getHeaders(files):
> 	thumbs = []
> 	for f in files:
> 		print "Adding %s" % f
> 		fi = FIPY.Image(f)
> 		fi.setCurrentPage(0)
> 		fi.invert() #temp fix
> 		thumb = fi.convertToPil()
> 		thumb.thumbnail(THUMBNAIL_SIZE, Image.ANTIALIAS)
> 		thumbs.append((os.path.basename(f), pilToBitmap(thumb)))
> 	thumbs.sort()
> 	return thumbs

Just a question, why "thumbs.sort" ? Inside this list you have only
images!

P.s. you can use also fi.currentPage = 0 rather then
fi.setCurrentPage(0). Is think it look like better :)

> 
> Iain
> 
> p.s. thanks again
> 

:)

Michele


From iainking at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 22:08:41 2006
From: iainking at gmail.com (Iain King)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 13:08:41 -0700
Subject: Trying to get FreeImagePy to work.
In-Reply-To: <eOEfg.20782$jP5.517557@twister1.libero.it>
References: <1148651668.578852.3160@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<7fEdg.13375$cX1.201311@twister2.libero.it>
	<1148655611.990937.322350@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<upFdg.13645$jP5.321123@twister1.libero.it>
	<1149166096.176405.22780@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<3PCfg.20835$cX1.315781@twister2.libero.it>
	<1149174938.337973.85950@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<eOEfg.20782$jP5.517557@twister1.libero.it>
Message-ID: <1149192520.959302.250840@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


Michele Petrazzo wrote:
> Iain King wrote:
> > However, when I'm do the
> > fipy.convertToPil(), it inverts the image?
>
> No, it not invert the image... It only return the image as is.
>
> > I've inserted a
> > fipy.invert() before the conversion as a temporary fix, but is there a
> > reason for this?
>
> If you are have a min-is-white image (fax ?) that isn't the standard,
> you will have an "inverted" image, because PIl expect a min-is-black
> image!
>


This is probably what is happening.  I'll upload one of the images
tomorrow, and you can check it out to make sure.


> > relevant code:
> >
> > def getHeaders(files):
> > 	thumbs = []
> > 	for f in files:
> > 		print "Adding %s" % f
> > 		fi = FIPY.Image(f)
> > 		fi.setCurrentPage(0)
> > 		fi.invert() #temp fix
> > 		thumb = fi.convertToPil()
> > 		thumb.thumbnail(THUMBNAIL_SIZE, Image.ANTIALIAS)
> > 		thumbs.append((os.path.basename(f), pilToBitmap(thumb)))
> > 	thumbs.sort()
> > 	return thumbs
>
> Just a question, why "thumbs.sort" ? Inside this list you have only
> images!

Ah, look closer!  It's a list of tuples:  (filename, image)
I'll try out FIPY's resizing tomorrow too.  OTOH, I have functions to
convert between PIL and wxPython, and functions to convert betweem PIL
and FIPY, but I don't see a function to convert FIPY to wxPython?

Iain



From iainking at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 10:10:36 2006
From: iainking at gmail.com (Iain King)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 01:10:36 -0700
Subject: Trying to get FreeImagePy to work.
In-Reply-To: <1149192520.959302.250840@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1148651668.578852.3160@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<7fEdg.13375$cX1.201311@twister2.libero.it>
	<1148655611.990937.322350@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<upFdg.13645$jP5.321123@twister1.libero.it>
	<1149166096.176405.22780@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<3PCfg.20835$cX1.315781@twister2.libero.it>
	<1149174938.337973.85950@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<eOEfg.20782$jP5.517557@twister1.libero.it>
	<1149192520.959302.250840@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149235836.646855.164110@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Iain King wrote:
> Michele Petrazzo wrote:
> > Iain King wrote:
> > > However, when I'm do the
> > > fipy.convertToPil(), it inverts the image?
> >
> > No, it not invert the image... It only return the image as is.
> >
> > > I've inserted a
> > > fipy.invert() before the conversion as a temporary fix, but is there a
> > > reason for this?
> >
> > If you are have a min-is-white image (fax ?) that isn't the standard,
> > you will have an "inverted" image, because PIl expect a min-is-black
> > image!
> >
>
>
> This is probably what is happening.  I'll upload one of the images
> tomorrow, and you can check it out to make sure.
>
>
> > > relevant code:
> > >
> > > def getHeaders(files):
> > > 	thumbs = []
> > > 	for f in files:
> > > 		print "Adding %s" % f
> > > 		fi = FIPY.Image(f)
> > > 		fi.setCurrentPage(0)
> > > 		fi.invert() #temp fix
> > > 		thumb = fi.convertToPil()
> > > 		thumb.thumbnail(THUMBNAIL_SIZE, Image.ANTIALIAS)
> > > 		thumbs.append((os.path.basename(f), pilToBitmap(thumb)))
> > > 	thumbs.sort()
> > > 	return thumbs
> >
> > Just a question, why "thumbs.sort" ? Inside this list you have only
> > images!
>
> Ah, look closer!  It's a list of tuples:  (filename, image)
> I'll try out FIPY's resizing tomorrow too.  OTOH, I have functions to
> convert between PIL and wxPython, and functions to convert betweem PIL
> and FIPY, but I don't see a function to convert FIPY to wxPython?
> 

Image at:  http://www.snakebomb.com/misc/example.tif

Iain



From michele.petrazzo at TOGLIunipex.it  Sat Jun  3 11:13:46 2006
From: michele.petrazzo at TOGLIunipex.it (Michele Petrazzo)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 09:13:46 GMT
Subject: Trying to get FreeImagePy to work.
In-Reply-To: <1149235836.646855.164110@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1148651668.578852.3160@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<7fEdg.13375$cX1.201311@twister2.libero.it>
	<1148655611.990937.322350@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<upFdg.13645$jP5.321123@twister1.libero.it>
	<1149166096.176405.22780@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<3PCfg.20835$cX1.315781@twister2.libero.it>
	<1149174938.337973.85950@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<eOEfg.20782$jP5.517557@twister1.libero.it>
	<1149192520.959302.250840@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149235836.646855.164110@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <epcgg.22651$cX1.354865@twister2.libero.it>

Iain King wrote:
>> I'll try out FIPY's resizing tomorrow too.  OTOH, I have functions
>> to convert between PIL and wxPython, and functions to convert
>> betweem PIL and FIPY, but I don't see a function to convert FIPY to
>> wxPython?
>> 
> 
> Image at:  http://www.snakebomb.com/misc/example.tif
> 
> Iain
> 

Yes it's min-is-white::

michele:~$ tiffinfo example.tif
TIFFReadDirectory: Warning, example.tif: unknown field with tag 37680
(0x9330) encountered.
TIFF Directory at offset 0x1520 (5408)
   Subfile Type: (0 = 0x0)
   Image Width: 1696 Image Length: 1162
   Resolution: 200, 200 pixels/inch
   Bits/Sample: 1
   Compression Scheme: CCITT Group 4
   Photometric Interpretation: min-is-white        # <------
   FillOrder: msb-to-lsb
   Samples/Pixel: 1
   Rows/Strip: 1162
   Planar Configuration: single image plane
   ImageDescription: DS
michele:~$

So you *need* to invert it to work correctly with PIL!

P.s. Added the convertToWx function, that return a wx.Image, to the 
Image class.

Michele


From iainking at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 10:11:14 2006
From: iainking at gmail.com (Iain King)
Date: 5 Jun 2006 01:11:14 -0700
Subject: Trying to get FreeImagePy to work.
In-Reply-To: <epcgg.22651$cX1.354865@twister2.libero.it>
References: <1148651668.578852.3160@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<7fEdg.13375$cX1.201311@twister2.libero.it>
	<1148655611.990937.322350@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<upFdg.13645$jP5.321123@twister1.libero.it>
	<1149166096.176405.22780@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<3PCfg.20835$cX1.315781@twister2.libero.it>
	<1149174938.337973.85950@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<eOEfg.20782$jP5.517557@twister1.libero.it>
	<1149192520.959302.250840@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149235836.646855.164110@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<epcgg.22651$cX1.354865@twister2.libero.it>
Message-ID: <1149495074.808694.273010@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


Michele Petrazzo wrote:
> Iain King wrote:
> >> I'll try out FIPY's resizing tomorrow too.  OTOH, I have functions
> >> to convert between PIL and wxPython, and functions to convert
> >> betweem PIL and FIPY, but I don't see a function to convert FIPY to
> >> wxPython?
> >>
> >
> > Image at:  http://www.snakebomb.com/misc/example.tif
> >
> > Iain
> >
>
> Yes it's min-is-white::
>
> michele:~$ tiffinfo example.tif
> TIFFReadDirectory: Warning, example.tif: unknown field with tag 37680
> (0x9330) encountered.
> TIFF Directory at offset 0x1520 (5408)
>    Subfile Type: (0 = 0x0)
>    Image Width: 1696 Image Length: 1162
>    Resolution: 200, 200 pixels/inch
>    Bits/Sample: 1
>    Compression Scheme: CCITT Group 4
>    Photometric Interpretation: min-is-white        # <------
>    FillOrder: msb-to-lsb
>    Samples/Pixel: 1
>    Rows/Strip: 1162
>    Planar Configuration: single image plane
>    ImageDescription: DS
> michele:~$
>
> So you *need* to invert it to work correctly with PIL!
>
> P.s. Added the convertToWx function, that return a wx.Image, to the
> Image class.
> 
> Michele

Most excellent!

Iain



From fredrik at pythonware.com  Mon Jun  5 10:49:37 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:49:37 +0200
Subject: Trying to get FreeImagePy to work.
In-Reply-To: <epcgg.22651$cX1.354865@twister2.libero.it>
References: <1148651668.578852.3160@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<7fEdg.13375$cX1.201311@twister2.libero.it>	<1148655611.990937.322350@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<upFdg.13645$jP5.321123@twister1.libero.it>	<1149166096.176405.22780@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<3PCfg.20835$cX1.315781@twister2.libero.it>	<1149174938.337973.85950@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>	<eOEfg.20782$jP5.517557@twister1.libero.it>	<1149192520.959302.250840@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<1149235836.646855.164110@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<epcgg.22651$cX1.354865@twister2.libero.it>
Message-ID: <e60r72$k42$1@sea.gmane.org>

Michele Petrazzo wrote:

> Yes it's min-is-white::
> 
> michele:~$ tiffinfo example.tif
> TIFFReadDirectory: Warning, example.tif: unknown field with tag 37680
> (0x9330) encountered.
> TIFF Directory at offset 0x1520 (5408)
>    Subfile Type: (0 = 0x0)
>    Image Width: 1696 Image Length: 1162
>    Resolution: 200, 200 pixels/inch
>    Bits/Sample: 1
>    Compression Scheme: CCITT Group 4
>    Photometric Interpretation: min-is-white        # <------
>    FillOrder: msb-to-lsb
>    Samples/Pixel: 1
>    Rows/Strip: 1162
>    Planar Configuration: single image plane
>    ImageDescription: DS
> michele:~$
> 
> So you *need* to invert it to work correctly with PIL!

PIL has no problem reading "min-is-white" TIFF images.

it would be nice if you stopped posting bogus "support" information for 
other libraries.

</F>



From michele.petrazzo at TOGLIunipex.it  Mon Jun  5 11:16:03 2006
From: michele.petrazzo at TOGLIunipex.it (Michele Petrazzo)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:16:03 GMT
Subject: Trying to get FreeImagePy to work.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6535.1149497436.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <1148651668.578852.3160@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<7fEdg.13375$cX1.201311@twister2.libero.it>	<1148655611.990937.322350@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<upFdg.13645$jP5.321123@twister1.libero.it>	<1149166096.176405.22780@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<3PCfg.20835$cX1.315781@twister2.libero.it>	<1149174938.337973.85950@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>	<eOEfg.20782$jP5.517557@twister1.libero.it>	<1149192520.959302.250840@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<1149235836.646855.164110@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<epcgg.22651$cX1.354865@twister2.libero.it>
	<mailman.6535.1149497436.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <nDSgg.24638$jP5.625853@twister1.libero.it>

Fredrik Lundh wrote:

>> So you *need* to invert it to work correctly with PIL!
> 
> PIL has no problem reading "min-is-white" TIFF images.
> 
> it would be nice if you stopped posting bogus "support" information 
> for other libraries.

Sorry if my posts make to seem that other libraries has problems! Sure
that *my* wrap has problems, like I have problem with something that I
don't know so well, like Image world (like I always said). I'm only
suggesting some, bad, trick for do the work that "Iain" wants.
I tried, but without success, to make the "convertToPil" function work
with 1, 8, 16 bpp... Seem that only 24/32 work, but I don't know why.

I know that PIL doesn't have problems!

> 
> </F>
> 

Hope that this can explain better the situation.

Bye,
Michele


From ilias at lazaridis.com  Sun Jun  4 15:17:54 2006
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:17:54 +0300
Subject: PUDGE - Project Status, Alternative Solutions
In-Reply-To: <447786E9.9010208@lazaridis.com>
References: <447786E9.9010208@lazaridis.com>
Message-ID: <4482DD82.6010003@lazaridis.com>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> What is going on with the pudge project?

Any chance to get an comment on this?

> Mr. Patrik O'Brien (Orbtech LLC) had told me that there is no similar 
> tool available within the python domain, thus I have invested some 
> effort to create a Website template, and to enable pudge to generate 
> colored code:
> 
> http://audit.lazaridis.com/schevo/wiki/SchevoWebsiteReview
> 
> I like to reuse the results for personal projects, but I am wondering 
> that the pudge email-list is death (since the server update) - and that 
> no one of the project reacts to personal and public postings.
> 
> Additionally, the schevo project removes the pudge stuff, mscott, the 
> developer which has introduced pudge removes it again (although this was 
> done with several other tools in the past, too):
> 
> http://schevo.org/trac/changeset/2127
> 
> -
> 
> Is there a similar tool available, with which I can generate python 
> documentation / websites or both based on templates and reST?
> 
> Or an overview of such tools?
> 
> I mean such an organized tool is essential for developmente with python.
> 
> .
> 


-- 
http://lazaridis.com


From ilias at lazaridis.com  Wed Jun  7 17:45:38 2006
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 18:45:38 +0300
Subject: PUDGE - Project Status, Alternative Solutions
In-Reply-To: <4482DD82.6010003@lazaridis.com>
References: <447786E9.9010208@lazaridis.com> <4482DD82.6010003@lazaridis.com>
Message-ID: <4486F4A2.1000906@lazaridis.com>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>> What is going on with the pudge project?
> 
> Any chance to get an comment on this?

After a little bit off-list discussion, I understand that many python 
documentation projects stop at some point, and that efforts are in 
general not very synchronized.

Small overview here (work in progress):

http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Docgen

-

btw: Still, the pudge.general list needs to be activated!!!

>> Mr. Patrik O'Brien (Orbtech LLC) had told me that there is no similar 
>> tool available within the python domain, thus I have invested some 
>> effort to create a Website template, and to enable pudge to generate 
>> colored code:
>>
>> http://audit.lazaridis.com/schevo/wiki/SchevoWebsiteReview
>>
>> I like to reuse the results for personal projects, but I am wondering 
>> that the pudge email-list is death (since the server update) - and 
>> that no one of the project reacts to personal and public postings.
>>
>> Additionally, the schevo project removes the pudge stuff, mscott, the 
>> developer which has introduced pudge removes it again (although this 
>> was done with several other tools in the past, too):
>>
>> http://schevo.org/trac/changeset/2127
>>
>> -
>>
>> Is there a similar tool available, with which I can generate python 
>> documentation / websites or both based on templates and reST?
>>
>> Or an overview of such tools?
>>
>> I mean such an organized tool is essential for developmente with python.
>>
>> .
>>
> 
> 


-- 
http://lazaridis.com


From frank at niessink.com  Mon Jun  5 11:01:43 2006
From: frank at niessink.com (Frank Niessink)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 11:01:43 +0200
Subject: TreeCtrl to TreeListCtrl
In-Reply-To: <20060527124212.23272.qmail@web33101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060527124212.23272.qmail@web33101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4483F2F7.9080300@niessink.com>

sendhil kumar:
> Hi all,
> whwn working with xml connectvity to python, i have a
> sash window, in which first window has a Tree Control
> that has 'n' parent fields preceded by + sign and on
> leftdown  all the childs got from external xml file.
> 
> when the particular parent field is selected and
> dragged, it must get posted to the other sash window
> which should in TreeList Control, bcoz iam displaying
> numerous xml attributes of the parent and following
> 'n' number of childs from xml.
> 
> Now, iam facing a problem in implementing with
> TreeListCtrl, but it works fne with ListCtrl...

And what exactly is your problem?

Cheers, Frank


From nick at craig-wood.com  Mon Jun  5 12:30:07 2006
From: nick at craig-wood.com (Nick Craig-Wood)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 05:30:07 -0500
Subject: Best way to check that a process is running on a Unix system?
References: <16de708d0605272205m66cbadc9h25e699fe4f7b32ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.6290.1148793625.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrne881gv.s53.nick@irishsea.home.craig-wood.com>

BJ?rn Lindqvist <bjourne at gmail.com> wrote:
> > What is the best way to check that a process is running (or better yet
> > number of instances) based on the name of the process? Would have to
> > work on a unix/linux system.
> 
>  Use "ps -C proc_name". Then either read the nr of lines in the output
>  (for the number of instances) or read the return value. 0 if the
>  process is running. Or read the /proc/*/status files and check if your
>  process is in any of them.

Here is a module I wrote ages ago which does the grubbling around in
/proc for you.

>>> import process
>>> p = process.ProcessList()
>>> p.named("emacs")
[Process(pid = 20610), Process(pid = 6076), Process(pid = 6113), Process(pid = 6590), Process(pid = 857), Process(pid = 1394), Process(pid = 28974)]
>>> 

Parsing the output of "ps -ef" will be more portable between unixes
though!

------------------------------------------------------------

"""
Manage Processes and a ProcessList under Linux.
"""

import os
import signal

class Process(object):
    """Represents a process"""
    def __init__(self, pid):
        """Make a new Process object"""
        self.proc = "/proc/%d" % pid
        pid,command,state,parent_pid = file(os.path.join(self.proc, "stat")).read().strip().split()[:4]
        command = command[1:-1]
        self.pid = int(pid)
        self.command = command
        self.state = state
        self.parent_pid = int(parent_pid)
        self.parent = None
        self.children = []
    def kill(self, sig = signal.SIGTERM):
        """Kill this process with SIGTERM by default"""
        os.kill(self.pid, sig)
    def __repr__(self):
        return "Process(pid = %r)" % self.pid
    def getcwd(self):
        """Read the current directory of this process or None for can't"""
        try:
            return os.readlink(os.path.join(self.proc, "cwd"))
        except OSError:
            return None
    
class ProcessList(object):
    """Represents a list of processes"""
    def __init__(self):
        """Read /proc and fill up the process lists"""
        self.by_pid = {}
        self.by_command = {}
        for f in os.listdir("/proc"):
            if f.isdigit():
                process = Process(int(f))
                self.by_pid[process.pid] = process
                self.by_command.setdefault(process.command, []).append(process)
        for process in self.by_pid.values():
            try:
                parent = self.by_pid[process.parent_pid]
                #print "child",process
                #print "parent",parent
                parent.children.append(process)
                process.parent = parent
            except KeyError:
                pass
    def named(self, name):
        """Returns a list of processes with the given name"""
        return self.by_command.get(name, [])

------------------------------------------------------------


-- 
Nick Craig-Wood <nick at craig-wood.com> -- http://www.craig-wood.com/nick


From jjl at pobox.com  Fri Jun  2 00:02:17 2006
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 01 Jun 2006 22:02:17 +0000
Subject: Finding a lost PYTHONPATH with find
References: <87zmh2oxwr.fsf@pobox.com>
	<aWGeg.103050$F_3.22115@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <87ac8wedqu.fsf@pobox.com>

Edward Elliott <nobody at 127.0.0.1> writes:

> John J. Lee wrote:
> 
> > find / -maxdepth 3 -size -100k -type f -exec grep -sli pythonpath '{}' \;
> > 
> > 
> > The minus in '-100k' (meaning "less than 100k") seems to be
> > undocumented, at least on my system.  
> 
> It should be standard in linux man pages, can't speak for other unices:
> 
>    TESTS
>        Numeric arguments can be specified as
> 
>        +n     for greater than n,
> 
>        -n     for less than n,
> 
>        n      for exactly n.
> 
> Maybe you were fooled because it's not directly under the description of
> -size.

Yes, that's right -- thanks.


> > I suppose the -maxdepth is 
> > redundant since I think find searches breadth-first by default.
> 
> ??? maxdepth determines how deep the search will look, not the order the
> search occurs.  Your search only find things within 3 levels of the root,
> unless your directory tree goes no deeper than that (very unlikely) the
> maxdepth can't be redundant.

It can if you hit Control-C as soon as it finds the damn thing :-) --
which is exactly what I would have done, of course.


John



From ldo at geek-central.gen.new_zealand  Mon Jun  5 11:29:53 2006
From: ldo at geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:29:53 +1200
Subject: summarize text
References: <1148903386.095226.249270@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <ldo-066D19.21295305062006@lust.ihug.co.nz>

... sorry, I thought you said "summarize Proust".

:)


From sdcook55 at sbcglobal.net  Sun Jun  4 16:17:02 2006
From: sdcook55 at sbcglobal.net (Stan Cook)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 14:17:02 GMT
Subject: create a text file
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6320.1148933704.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <2xIeg.88125$H71.14049@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>
	<mailman.6320.1148933704.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <yXBgg.16314$VE1.8913@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> Stan Cook wrote:
> 
>> I'm writing a script to list all of my music files' id3 tags to a 
>> comma delimited file.  The only part I'm missing seems like it should 
>> be the simplest.  I haven't used Python for the last couple of years.  
>> My question is this:
>>
>> When I use os.open(<file_variable>,"w"), I get an error 
>> message,        TypeError: an integer is required.  Has something 
>> changed?  Did I miss something???
> 
> the function is called "open", not "os.open".
> 
> there's an open function in the os module, but that's doing something 
> slightly different (see the library reference documentation for details 
> if you're curious).
> 
> </F>
> 
Thanks, I found it.


From timr at probo.com  Thu Jun  1 06:42:22 2006
From: timr at probo.com (Tim Roberts)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 04:42:22 GMT
Subject: TIming
References: <pan.2006.05.30.01.24.04.677340@none.none>
	<ecin725eh7mk1teolpfi2ulj349ogptdir@4ax.com>
	<pan.2006.05.30.05.23.09.936650@none.none>
	<mailman.6326.1148969845.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2006.05.30.19.50.38.152274@none.none>
Message-ID: <dlrs72d82eb43hcfs4ookvos7kijnic19d@4ax.com>

WIdgeteye <None at none.none> wrote:

>On Tue, 30 May 2006 16:15:44 +1000, John McMonagle wrote:
> 
>> Tim Roberts is right.  As you are on linux, I suggest you investigate the
>> at command - very user friendly and not at all complicated.
>
>I have been using Slackware for over 10 years I know all about the
>commands on the OS.
>
>If you guys don't have an answer to the question just say so. But don't
>give me suggestions on how to use an OS I have been using most likely
>longer than 90% of the people using linux today.
>
>This is the comp.lang.python news group not the linux news group. If I
>didn't want to write the Python code and I wanted to use the OS commands
>instead I would. 

Utter nonsense.  If someone posted on comp.lang.python that they wanted to
know how to write a DMA-based PCI driver in Python, I am sure as heck going
to tell them that there are better tools for the job and better newsgroups
for the question.

>Python is cross platform. Linux is not. I intend to release the software
>to the general public someday when it is done. I want it cross platform.

Windows also has an "at" command.

However, you are not going to be able to write a television-based
application that is cross platform.  The video tools are just too
different.

>BTW in the time it took me NOT to get an answer for my question in this so
>called Python NG, I figured it out for myself. 

That's almost always the case with newsgroups.  They are NOT a real-time
medium.

>This PYTHON NG blows to high heaven. Whats worse, the answers I got were
>most likely from people who know SQUAT about Python scripting. That's why 
>they gave me such lame fucking answers. 

We did not give you "lame fucking answers".  We gave you solutions to the
problem you posed.  If the problem statement wasn't clear enough, that
isn't our fault.

>Idiots.

It takes one to know one.
-- 
- Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
  Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.


From osv at javad.com  Thu Jun  1 12:53:32 2006
From: osv at javad.com (Sergei Organov)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:53:32 +0400
Subject: Watching serial port activity.
References: <1148955873.334359.47860@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<127ncut3mpadoc5@corp.supernews.com>
	<1148962019.355956.124420@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<127oj612scnl8a0@corp.supernews.com>
	<1148998176.105881.156310@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<127olia8pnldl90@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.6347.1149052455.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<127rccueg04oie5@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <e5mgvc$3vn$1@sea.gmane.org>

Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> writes:

> On 2006-05-31, Sergei Organov <osv at javad.com> wrote:
>
>> It seems that sniff on a real tty device could be implemented using the
>> same technique strace uses to intercept and show syscalls, though I'm
>> not aware of any sniffer application that does it.
>
> Using strace you can indeed trace read/write calls on user-specified
> file descriptors.

I've actually meant to take strace in source code and modify it for
particular purpose. The fact that it almost can do it in unmodified form
is quite impressive though.

> Figuring out which file descriptors to trace is the tricky part.

Provided I have port name, say, /dev/ttyM0, and have running application:

osv at osv ~$ fuser /dev/ttyM0
/dev/ttyM0:           5134
osv at osv ~$ ls -l /proc/5134/fd | grep /dev/ttyM0
lrwx------  1 osv osv 64 2006-05-29 15:33 8 -> /dev/ttyM0
osv at osv ~$

so I need to track fd #8 of the process with pid 5134. Guess one can
attach to a running process as gdb does it.

Alternatively, if the process to be sniffed sporadically opens/closes
the port at run-time, it is required to track open()/close() syscalls as
well as read()/write() ones, I think. Overall, seems not that trivial
but doable.

-- 
Sergei.



From anatoli.barski at googlemail.com  Thu Jun  1 09:04:26 2006
From: anatoli.barski at googlemail.com (anatoli.barski at googlemail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 00:04:26 -0700
Subject: how to print newline in xml?
In-Reply-To: <Xns97D3CFB7B50DCcastleamber@130.133.1.4>
References: <1149023930.292203.152540@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<Xns97D3CFB7B50DCcastleamber@130.133.1.4>
Message-ID: <1149145466.190011.146250@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Thank you for a possible solution, but it's not what I'm looking for,
cause something like <!-- comment --> would look quite similar... for
big elements like robot it would be ok to use comment as a child of
element - but imagine I'd like to comment transformation:

<transformation x="0" y="0" z="0"/> I wouldn't like to make this
element parent of a description - it is not nice - I have lots of such
elements.

It is important that a user after having a glance at the document is
able to quickly find and change some values. I don't want to bother him
with reading documentation nodes - but if he needs - they should be
there... the only possible solution I can think of would be:

<Robot>
  <verbose mode="enabled"/>                    <!-- enabled, disabled
-->
  <CollisionChecker type="vcollide"/>          <!-- possible values for
type: vcollide, (nyi: disabled) -->
  <Visualisation mode="3DModel"/>              <!-- posiible values for
mode: 3DModel, (nyi: disabled, line) -->

<!--  <Offset eulerX="-90" eulerZ="90"/> -->

  <RootJoint>                                  <!-- the one and only
root joint -->
    <Name value="Armar3"/>                    <!-- name of this joint
-->
    <DH>                                       <!-- Denavit Hartenberg
parameters -->
      <alpha value="0"/>
    </DH>

    <ID value="0"/>                            <!-- unique ID of this
joint -->
    <ChildNodes childID="1"/>                  <!-- all child joints of
this joint -->
  </RootJoint>

  <ChildJoint>
    <Name value="Platform"/>
    <JointTransformation>
      <RotationAxis X="0" Y="0" Z="1" INIT="0"/>
      <TranslationFromParent X="0" Y="0" Z="0"/>
    </JointTransformation>
    <Visualisation>                           <!-- visualisation
settings for this joint -->
      <IVModel file="model/platform.iv"/>      <!-- filename of full 3d
model -->
    </Visualisation>
    <ID value="1"/>                             <!-- unique ID of this
joint -->
    <ChildNodes childID="2"/>                  <!-- all child joints of
this joint -->
  </ChildJoint>

> How about:
>
> <robot>
>     <description>armar3</description>
>     :
>     :
> </robot>
>
> XML editor + xpath makes this way more easier to use by humans compared to
> normal comments. Also, if you declare several of comment elements
> (summary, description, author, etc.) you can auto generate documentation
> etc.
>
> --
> John                               MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/
>                            personal page:       http://johnbokma.com/
>         Experienced programmer available:     http://castleamber.com/
>             Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html



From john at castleamber.com  Thu Jun  1 19:41:33 2006
From: john at castleamber.com (John Bokma)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 17:41:33 GMT
Subject: how to print newline in xml?
References: <1149023930.292203.152540@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<Xns97D3CFB7B50DCcastleamber@130.133.1.4>
	<1149145466.190011.146250@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <Xns97D5811DAC7B6castleamber@130.133.1.4>

"anatoli.barski at googlemail.com" <anatoli.barski at googlemail.com> wrote:

> Thank you for a possible solution, but it's not what I'm looking for,
> cause something like <!-- comment --> would look quite similar... for
> big elements like robot it would be ok to use comment as a child of
> element - but imagine I'd like to comment transformation:
> 
> <transformation x="0" y="0" z="0"/> I wouldn't like to make this
> element parent of a description - it is not nice - I have lots of such
> elements.

Then add the comment to the parent of transformation, or an other option 
might be:

<transformation x="0" y="0" z="0" description="some description"/>

> It is important that a user after having a glance at the document is
> able to quickly find and change some values. I don't want to bother
> him with reading documentation nodes - but if he needs - they should
> be there... the only possible solution I can think of would be:
> 
> <Robot>
>   <verbose mode="enabled"/>                    <!-- enabled, disabled
> -->

Several of your comments are stating the obvious, it's like:

x++    	increments the value x contains with one
 

>     <DH>                                       <!-- Denavit Hartenberg

Picking a better name would solve that problem. DenavitHartenberg might be 
a bit long though.


BTW: don't top post.

-- 
John                               MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/
                           personal page:       http://johnbokma.com/
        Experienced programmer available:     http://castleamber.com/
            Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html


From anatoli.barski at googlemail.com  Thu Jun  1 20:36:29 2006
From: anatoli.barski at googlemail.com (anatoli.barski at googlemail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 11:36:29 -0700
Subject: how to print newline in xml?
In-Reply-To: <Xns97D5811DAC7B6castleamber@130.133.1.4>
References: <1149023930.292203.152540@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<Xns97D3CFB7B50DCcastleamber@130.133.1.4>
	<1149145466.190011.146250@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<Xns97D5811DAC7B6castleamber@130.133.1.4>
Message-ID: <1149186989.073062.230220@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

Thank you! I think description as an attribute is readable. But now I'm
thinking about the order of attributes cause I noticed that for
instance X="0" Y="0" Z="0" set in this order by my script is printed
like X="0" Z="0" Y="0" therefore it could be messy - I wouldn't like
the description to be somewhere between the other attributes. But I
have to test it.

I'll have to consider some better names for the elements

Sending my regards, Anatoli



From john at castleamber.com  Thu Jun  1 20:59:53 2006
From: john at castleamber.com (John Bokma)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 18:59:53 GMT
Subject: how to print newline in xml?
References: <1149023930.292203.152540@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<Xns97D3CFB7B50DCcastleamber@130.133.1.4>
	<1149145466.190011.146250@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<Xns97D5811DAC7B6castleamber@130.133.1.4>
	<1149186989.073062.230220@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <Xns97D58E6575C8Acastleamber@130.133.1.4>

"anatoli.barski at googlemail.com" <anatoli.barski at googlemail.com> wrote:

> Thank you! I think description as an attribute is readable. But now I'm
> thinking about the order of attributes cause I noticed that for
> instance X="0" Y="0" Z="0" set in this order by my script is printed
> like X="0" Z="0" Y="0" therefore it could be messy - I wouldn't like
> the description to be somewhere between the other attributes. But I
> have to test it.

I don't know the library you are using, and also have way more experience 
in Perl. I guess that the attributes are stored in a dictionary, which has 
no order, and hence the original order of the attributes is lost. In Perl 
with some modules I use I can chose to use a list or a hash (= 
dictionary). With the former the original order is preserved.

I am sure something like that is possible in Python as well.


-- 
John                               MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/
                           personal page:       http://johnbokma.com/
        Experienced programmer available:     http://castleamber.com/
            Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html


From anatoli.barski at googlemail.com  Thu Jun  1 22:39:13 2006
From: anatoli.barski at googlemail.com (anatoli.barski at googlemail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 13:39:13 -0700
Subject: how to print newline in xml?
In-Reply-To: <Xns97D58E6575C8Acastleamber@130.133.1.4>
References: <1149023930.292203.152540@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<Xns97D3CFB7B50DCcastleamber@130.133.1.4>
	<1149145466.190011.146250@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<Xns97D5811DAC7B6castleamber@130.133.1.4>
	<1149186989.073062.230220@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<Xns97D58E6575C8Acastleamber@130.133.1.4>
Message-ID: <1149194353.343074.15140@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

I use Python/XML packages are xml.dom.minidom and xml.dom.ext (second
just for PrettyPrint)



From uche.ogbuji at gmail.com  Sun Jun  4 17:49:35 2006
From: uche.ogbuji at gmail.com (uche.ogbuji at gmail.com)
Date: 4 Jun 2006 08:49:35 -0700
Subject: how to print newline in xml?
In-Reply-To: <1149194353.343074.15140@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149023930.292203.152540@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<Xns97D3CFB7B50DCcastleamber@130.133.1.4>
	<1149145466.190011.146250@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<Xns97D5811DAC7B6castleamber@130.133.1.4>
	<1149186989.073062.230220@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<Xns97D58E6575C8Acastleamber@130.133.1.4>
	<1149194353.343074.15140@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149436175.651269.177270@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

anatoli.barski at googlemail.com wrote:
> I use Python/XML packages are xml.dom.minidom and xml.dom.ext (second
> just for PrettyPrint)

You don't need xml.dom.ext for prettyprint.  You can use
doc.toprettyxml()

I gather you want to tweak the prettyprinter to not add the newline
before the comment.  The only way to do this is to write your own
printing logic, which is really not that hard, if you just start by
copying the code from .writexml (used by .toprettyxml).

But there's an even easier (if slower) way: pretty print the document,
then parse it in again, remove the text node between the element in
question and the following comment, and then use .writexml() to
serialize it it again.

A few general notes:

* You cannot set the order of attributes in most XML tools, whether
Python or not.  This is unfortunate for people who would like to
preserve such details for usability reasons, but that's just the way
XML is.  The closest you can get is by using canonicalization [1],
which is available in PyXML as xml.dom.ext.c14n.  It just so happens
that canonical XML leaves the attributes in the order you want.  You
won't always be so lucky.

* You can always create text nodes by using doc.createTextNode.

* You can always remove text nodes (or any other kind) by using
.removeChild

* It's much easier to navigate if you use XPath.  PyXML has an
xml.xpath module you can use.

Good luck.

[1] http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-c14n/

--
Uche Ogbuji                               Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net                    http://fourthought.com
http://copia.ogbuji.net                   http://4Suite.org
Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/



From rupole at hotmail.com  Thu Jun  1 05:35:50 2006
From: rupole at hotmail.com (Roger Upole)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 23:35:50 -0400
Subject: Try/Except for ADSI GetObject
References: <al5fg.9877$ho6.1459@trnddc07>
Message-ID: <1149132664_5885@sp6iad.superfeed.net>


"LittlePython" <LittlePython at lost.com> wrote in message news:al5fg.9877$ho6.1459 at trnddc07...
>I am a little confused on why I can not detect an object that does not exist
> with a try and except. If I understand ADSI correctly from what I have read
> you do not create these objects but rather get them. They already exist. I
> believe if I do the equivalent in VB I would generate an error when I try to
> get an object that does not exist (can not find).

I don't get an error when doing a GetObject in VBS
for a nonexistent domain.


What have I done wrong?
> I have included the function below that works in ever respect but detecting
> incorrect NT Domain Names (objects that do not exist) . Any tips, insight or
> comments would be welcome by this newbie.


You should be able to use win32net.NetValidateName to
verify that the domain exists before doing any more operations.

           hth
             Roger 




----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---


From ullrich at math.okstate.edu  Thu Jun  1 12:16:33 2006
From: ullrich at math.okstate.edu (David C. Ullrich)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:16:33 -0500
Subject: shuffling elements of a list
References: <1149045499.212967.13120@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>	<mailman.6345.1149049261.27775.python-list@python.org>	<1149051212.139046.155340@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<otpq72t7c1n3puh4omc42k3f98db968lhs@4ax.com>	<slrne7qr97.8hm.sybrenUSE@schuimige.stuvel.eu>
	<1149105576.321676.131600@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6382.1149109535.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <69ft72516amvri3up8fop5rf543s6en1lg@4ax.com>

On Wed, 31 May 2006 23:05:14 +0200, Fredrik Lundh
<fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote:

>Roger Miller wrote:
>
>> DSU seems like a lot of trouble to go through in order to use an O(n
>> log n) sorting algorithm to do what can be done in O(N) with a few
>> lines of code.  The core code of random.shuffle() shows how easy it is
>> to do it right:
>> 
>>         for i in reversed(xrange(1, len(x))):
>>             # pick an element in x[:i+1] with which to exchange x[i]
>>             j = int(random() * (i+1))
>>             x[i], x[j] = x[j], x[i]
>
>easy to do it right?  you know, the main reason for adding shuffle to 
>the standard library was that its way too easy to get it wrong.

Heh. And I thought it was just me.

_I_ find it easy to get the "limits" wrong, even though I have
the idea of the algorithm perfectly straight. Better yet is the
number of times I've seen a simply wrong algorithm posted online:

>see e.g. this thread: http://tinyurl.com/ppgzq

Good example, because we know that EMF is not dumb. I've seen
the same algorithm many times - the best example is

http://www.cigital.com/papers/download/developer_gambling.php

Some poker site posted the simply-wrong algorithm in an effort
to convince people that their decks were properly shuffled!


************************

David C. Ullrich


From max at alcyone.com  Thu Jun  1 12:25:23 2006
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 03:25:23 -0700
Subject: shuffling elements of a list
In-Reply-To: <69ft72516amvri3up8fop5rf543s6en1lg@4ax.com>
References: <1149045499.212967.13120@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>	<mailman.6345.1149049261.27775.python-list@python.org>	<1149051212.139046.155340@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<otpq72t7c1n3puh4omc42k3f98db968lhs@4ax.com>	<slrne7qr97.8hm.sybrenUSE@schuimige.stuvel.eu>
	<1149105576.321676.131600@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6382.1149109535.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<69ft72516amvri3up8fop5rf543s6en1lg@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <OdKdncKtYcYOXePZnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>

David C. Ullrich wrote:

> Good example, because we know that EMF is not dumb. I've seen
> the same algorithm many times - the best example is ...

Man, an error made _six years ago_ and people are still bringing it up ...

-- 
Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
   The purpose of man's life is not happiness but worthiness.
   -- Felix Adler


From ullrich at math.okstate.edu  Fri Jun  2 11:30:20 2006
From: ullrich at math.okstate.edu (David C. Ullrich)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 04:30:20 -0500
Subject: shuffling elements of a list
References: <1149045499.212967.13120@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>	<mailman.6345.1149049261.27775.python-list@python.org>	<1149051212.139046.155340@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<otpq72t7c1n3puh4omc42k3f98db968lhs@4ax.com>	<slrne7qr97.8hm.sybrenUSE@schuimige.stuvel.eu>
	<1149105576.321676.131600@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6382.1149109535.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<69ft72516amvri3up8fop5rf543s6en1lg@4ax.com>
	<OdKdncKtYcYOXePZnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <b01082psdsjv3jt578fee02e16njr6mu8h@4ax.com>

On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 03:25:23 -0700, Erik Max Francis <max at alcyone.com>
wrote:

>David C. Ullrich wrote:
>
>> Good example, because we know that EMF is not dumb. I've seen
>> the same algorithm many times - the best example is ...
>
>Man, an error made _six years ago_ and people are still bringing it up ...

Sorry. Happens to me on sci.math all the time. The point really
wasn't that you were so dumb, the point was just the opposite.
(_I_ didb't bring it up, btw - I would never have known about
it if FL hadn't pointed it out.)


************************

David C. Ullrich


From iainking at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 13:30:55 2006
From: iainking at gmail.com (Iain King)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 04:30:55 -0700
Subject: shuffling elements of a list
In-Reply-To: <otpq72t7c1n3puh4omc42k3f98db968lhs@4ax.com>
References: <1149045499.212967.13120@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6345.1149049261.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149051212.139046.155340@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<otpq72t7c1n3puh4omc42k3f98db968lhs@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1149247855.487864.124540@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


David C. Ullrich wrote:
> On 30 May 2006 21:53:32 -0700, "greenflame" <alikakakhel at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> That's DSU for _sorting_ a list. I read about this, thought
> it was pretty neat. I thought that the fact that you
> could use the same trick for _shuffling_ a list was
> my idea, gonna make me rich and famous. I guess I'm
> not the only one who thought of it. Anyway, you can
> use DSU to _shuffle_ a list by decorating the list
> with random numbers.
>
> In fairly old-fashioned Python:
>
> from random import random
>
> def shuffle(data):
>   decorated = map(lambda x: (random(), x), data)
>   decorated.sort()
>   return map(lambda x: x[1], decorated)
>
> print shuffle(range(10))
>
> This prints
>
> [4, 2, 7, 8, 9, 3, 5, 1, 6, 0]
>
> . Seems kinda neat - I have no idea how the efficiency
> compares with the standard sort of "bubble shuffle"
> you were trying to use in your OP, but the point is
> that various off-by-one errors simply don't come up.
>
> (The same thing in extremely awful Python, in case
> you're mystified by map and lambda:
>
> from random import random
>
> def shuffle(data):
>   decorated = []
>   for x in data:
>     decorated.append((random(), x))
>   decorated.sort()
>   res = []
>   for x in decorated:
>     res.append(x[1])
>   return res
>
> .)

or in nicer python, but still when you're mysitified by map and lambda
(like me):

def shuffle(data):
    decorated = [(random(), x) for x in data]
    decorated.sort()
    return [x[1] for x in decorated]

or shorter but possible less readable (and only in 2.4+):

def shuffle(data):
    return [y[1] for y in sorted([(random(), x) for x in data])]

Iain



From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Jun  2 13:50:46 2006
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 13:50:46 +0200
Subject: shuffling elements of a list
References: <1149045499.212967.13120@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6345.1149049261.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149051212.139046.155340@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<otpq72t7c1n3puh4omc42k3f98db968lhs@4ax.com>
	<1149247855.487864.124540@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5p8i1$e9j$03$1@news.t-online.com>

Iain King wrote:

> or shorter but possible less readable (and only in 2.4+):
> 
> def shuffle(data):
>     return [y[1] for y in sorted([(random(), x) for x in data])]

sorted() and list.sort() will happily accept a key function argument and
then do the decorating/undecorating for you:

>>> from random import random
>>> def key(item): return random()
...
>>> def shuffled(items):
...     return sorted(items, key=key)
...
>>> shuffled(range(10))
[6, 5, 3, 4, 8, 9, 0, 7, 1, 2]

> or in nicer python, but still when you're mysitified by map and lambda
> (like me):

Turning the key() function into a lambda is left as an exercise :-)

Peter



From grflanagan at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jun  1 09:32:44 2006
From: grflanagan at yahoo.co.uk (Gerard Flanagan)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 00:32:44 -0700
Subject: shuffling elements of a list
References: <1149045499.212967.13120@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6345.1149049261.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149147164.012044.66960@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>

Ben Finney wrote:
[snip]
>
> Please don't write C in Python. The 'for' statement allows iteration
> directly over a sequence, no need to maintain an index. Also, the
> modulus operator is called for with your cycling of the pile index.
>
>         pile_index = 0
>         for card in deck:
>             piles[pile_index].append(card)
>             pile_index = (pile_index + 1) % numpiles
>

no need to maintain an index ;-)

        piles = [ list() for _ in range(n) ]
        for i, card in enumerate(deck):
            piles[i % numpiles].append(card)


Gerard



From bignose+hates-spam at benfinney.id.au  Thu Jun  1 09:52:00 2006
From: bignose+hates-spam at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 17:52:00 +1000
Subject: shuffling elements of a list
References: <1149045499.212967.13120@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6345.1149049261.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149147164.012044.66960@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <87bqtdz527.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

"Gerard Flanagan" <grflanagan at yahoo.co.uk> writes:

> Ben Finney wrote:
> >         pile_index = 0
> >         for card in deck:
> >             piles[pile_index].append(card)
> >             pile_index = (pile_index + 1) % numpiles
> >
> 
> no need to maintain an index ;-)
> 
>         piles = [ list() for _ in range(n) ]
>         for i, card in enumerate(deck):
>             piles[i % numpiles].append(card)

That's a matter of style. I prefer what I wrote, since I've given an
explicit name to the calculation you're doing inside the [] operator;
that way, anyone reading the code knows *why* the calculation is done
in this particular case.

If, of course, the index was a simple increment-by-one each time, your
'enumerate' usage would be clearer.

-- 
 \           "We spend the first twelve months of our children's lives |
  `\          teaching them to walk and talk and the next twelve years |
_o__)        telling them to sit down and shut up."  -- Phyllis Diller |
Ben Finney



From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Jun  1 09:52:25 2006
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 09:52:25 +0200
Subject: shuffling elements of a list
References: <1149045499.212967.13120@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6345.1149049261.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149147164.012044.66960@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5m677$d95$02$1@news.t-online.com>

Gerard Flanagan wrote:

> Ben Finney wrote:

>>         pile_index = 0
>>         for card in deck:
>>             piles[pile_index].append(card)
>>             pile_index = (pile_index + 1) % numpiles
>>
> 
> no need to maintain an index ;-)
> 
>         piles = [ list() for _ in range(n) ]
>         for i, card in enumerate(deck):
>             piles[i % numpiles].append(card)

No need to maintain an index ;-)

piles = [deck[start::numpiles] for start in range(numpiles)]

Assuming deck is a list, that is.

Peter



From grflanagan at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jun  1 12:37:10 2006
From: grflanagan at yahoo.co.uk (Gerard Flanagan)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 03:37:10 -0700
Subject: shuffling elements of a list
References: <1149045499.212967.13120@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6345.1149049261.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149147164.012044.66960@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<e5m677$d95$02$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <1149158230.815685.167850@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Peter Otten wrote:
> Gerard Flanagan wrote:
>
> > Ben Finney wrote:
>
> >>         pile_index = 0
> >>         for card in deck:
> >>             piles[pile_index].append(card)
> >>             pile_index = (pile_index + 1) % numpiles
> >>
> >
> > no need to maintain an index ;-)
> >
> >         piles = [ list() for _ in range(n) ]
> >         for i, card in enumerate(deck):
> >             piles[i % numpiles].append(card)
>
> No need to maintain an index ;-)
>
> piles = [deck[start::numpiles] for start in range(numpiles)]

 I am humbled  :-)

Gerard



From aleax at mac.com  Thu Jun  1 16:24:24 2006
From: aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:24:24 -0700
Subject: shuffling elements of a list
References: <1149045499.212967.13120@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6345.1149049261.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149147164.012044.66960@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<e5m677$d95$02$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <1hg8scu.94jp741hydj6dN%aleax@mac.com>

Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:

> Gerard Flanagan wrote:
> > Ben Finney wrote:
> 
> >>         pile_index = 0
> >>         for card in deck:
> >>             piles[pile_index].append(card)
> >>             pile_index = (pile_index + 1) % numpiles
> > 
> > no need to maintain an index ;-)
> > 
> >         piles = [ list() for _ in range(n) ]
> >         for i, card in enumerate(deck):
> >             piles[i % numpiles].append(card)
> 
> No need to maintain an index ;-)
> 
> piles = [deck[start::numpiles] for start in range(numpiles)]
> 
> Assuming deck is a list, that is.

Or, for deck hypothetically being an arbitrary iterable,

import itertools as it
piles = [ list() for _ in range(numpiles) ]
for pile, card in it.izip(it.cycle(piles), deck):
    pile.append(card)

i.e., let itertools do the cycling for you.  But, sure, for this problem
one can no doubt assume that deck is sliceable, and extended slicing
(==slicing with a stride) comes in handy.


Alex


From jerry.levan at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 00:40:59 2006
From: jerry.levan at gmail.com (jerry.levan at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 15:40:59 -0700
Subject: Solved: Tktable, WinXP and ActiveState Python 2.4.3,x
References: <1149047353.883167.18100@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149201659.936164.68960@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


jerry.levan at gmail.com wrote:
> Hi,
> I have a python app that runs fine on MacOS X and Fedora Core 5.
>
> This evening I dragged the folder over to my windows partition and
> tried to run the rascal.
>
> The program starts up fine but at the first call to create a Table
> object
> I get
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File
> "C:\Python24\Lib\site-packages\pythonwin\pywin\framework\scriptutils.py",
> line 310, in RunScript
>     exec codeObject in __main__.__dict__
>   File "C:\Documents and
> Settings\Jerry\Desktop\PyPgBrowseUni\PyPgExplorer.py", line 7, in ?
>     obj.main()
>   File "C:\Documents and
> Settings\Jerry\Desktop\PyPgBrowseUni\Resources\PyPgBrowse.py", line 72,
> in main
>     self.build_ui( info)
>   File "C:\Documents and
> Settings\Jerry\Desktop\PyPgBrowseUni\Resources\PyPgBrowse.py", line
> 187, in build_ui
>     rowtagcommand=self.rowproc
>   File "C:\Documents and
> Settings\Jerry\Desktop\PyPgBrowseUni\Resources\Tktable.py", line 64, in
> __init__
>     master.tk.call('load', '', 'Tktable' )
> TclError: package "Tktable" isn't loaded statically
> :
>
> I get the same error if I try to create a Table object from the command
> line
> in a console.
>
> I tried waving a dead chicken at my laptop but it did no good.
>
> Is there some special magic to get Tktable.py to play nice?
> I do have the latest Tcl from Active State loaded on my box and
> the Tktable in my Tk programs work well...
>
> Thanks for any insight....
>
> Jerry

Thanks to the good folks at Active State here is a way to use tktable
from Python.

1) Put the wrapper file Tktable.py into C:\Python24\Lib\lib-tk
2) Copy the whole folder C:\Tcl\lib\Tktable* to C:\Python\tcl

Letter Rip....

Thanks Jeff...

Jerry



From george.sakkis at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 03:03:59 2006
From: george.sakkis at gmail.com (George Sakkis)
Date: 31 May 2006 18:03:59 -0700
Subject: ideas for programs?
References: <mailman.6346.1149051733.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149123839.683480.178380@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Brandon McGinty wrote:

> Hi,
> I've been learning python for the past couple of months and writing misc
> scripts here and there, along with some web apps.
> I'm wondering if anyone has ideas of programs I might try my hand at making?
> I'd appreciate it if they don't use images, because I'm blind.


One ambitious idea would be to implement (a subset of) MDX,
the Multi-Dimensional eXpressions language
(http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms145506.aspx). If you have
any java experience, there is an open source implementation in it so
you don't have to start from scratch: http://mondrian.sourceforge.net.

George



From jstroud at ucla.edu  Thu Jun  1 06:51:25 2006
From: jstroud at ucla.edu (James Stroud)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 21:51:25 -0700
Subject: ideas for programs?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6346.1149051733.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6346.1149051733.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <e5lrod$b03$1@zinnia.noc.ucla.edu>

A digest of the major points summarizing the consensus opinion:

Thomas Bartkus wrote:
 > Python is your tool to put your expertise on a computer. Skill with 
Python,
 > or any computer language for that matter, counts for little.

And akameswaran at gmail.com wrote:
 > As far as employment.  I come from a java background, and that seems
 > the only language I can pay the bills with:).  Particularly in the US
 > paid python jobs are hard to come by.

James

-- 
James Stroud
UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics
Box 951570
Los Angeles, CA 90095

http://www.jamesstroud.com/


From akameswaran at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 20:16:20 2006
From: akameswaran at gmail.com (akameswaran at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 11:16:20 -0700
Subject: ideas for programs?
In-Reply-To: <e5lrod$b03$1@zinnia.noc.ucla.edu>
References: <mailman.6346.1149051733.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<e5lrod$b03$1@zinnia.noc.ucla.edu>
Message-ID: <1149185780.594711.37530@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


James Stroud wrote:
> A digest of the major points summarizing the consensus opinion:
>
> Thomas Bartkus wrote:
>  > Python is your tool to put your expertise on a computer. Skill with
> Python,
>  > or any computer language for that matter, counts for little.
>
> And akameswaran at gmail.com wrote:
>  > As far as employment.  I come from a java background, and that seems
>  > the only language I can pay the bills with:).  Particularly in the US
>  > paid python jobs are hard to come by.
>
> James

Hmm, I'm not clear what you were trying to say when you put these two
quotes together.  They seem actually opposed to each other.

Despite what I wrote, Thomas is making a more accurate statement.
However, Java EXPERIENCE does look good on my resume - and seems to
carry a lot more weight than python experience.  I don't like that fact
- but let's face it, a lot of HR departments look at things just that
way.



From diesch at spamfence.net  Sun Jun  4 02:09:15 2006
From: diesch at spamfence.net (Florian Diesch)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 02:09:15 +0200
Subject: ideas for programs?
References: <mailman.6346.1149051733.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20060604000919.7E06.0.NOFFLE@dieschf.news.arcor.de>

Brandon McGinty <brandon.mcginty at gmail.com> wrote:


> I've been learning python for the past couple of months and writing
> misc scripts here and there, along with some web apps.
> I'm wondering if anyone has ideas of programs I might try my hand at making?

Something I wanted a few days ago: I have a graph described in the .dot
language (used by GraphViz <http://www.graphviz.org>) and want you get
things like "shortest path between two nodes", "all paths between two
nodes", "all cycles" and whatever graph theory knows as interesting. 


   Florian
-- 
<http://www.florian-diesch.de/>


From nogradi at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 00:24:18 2006
From: nogradi at gmail.com (Daniel Nogradi)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 00:24:18 +0200
Subject: ideas for programs?
In-Reply-To: <20060604000919.7E06.0.NOFFLE@dieschf.news.arcor.de>
References: <mailman.6346.1149051733.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<20060604000919.7E06.0.NOFFLE@dieschf.news.arcor.de>
Message-ID: <5f56302b0606041524l67090e7bk903eb0a087e09a68@mail.gmail.com>

> I've been learning python for the past couple of months and writing
> misc scripts here and there, along with some web apps.
> I'm wondering if anyone has ideas of programs I might try my hand at
> making?

You could put together a handy CSS generator library that could be
used from a python webapp to generate CSS stylesheets on the fly. I'm
sure many webdevelopers would find this helpful.


From chris at kateandchris.net  Thu Jun  1 23:39:16 2006
From: chris at kateandchris.net (Chris Lambacher)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:39:16 -0400
Subject: Add file to zip, or replace file in zip
In-Reply-To: <447D417D.000005.13553@bj163app13.163.com>
References: <447D417D.000005.13553@bj163app13.163.com>
Message-ID: <20060601213916.GA912@kateandchris.net>

Skip over the file in question when you first are zipping the directory.
Unfortunately you cannot replace or remove a file from a zip without unzipping
and rezipping all the contents.

-Chris

On Wed, May 31, 2006 at 03:10:53PM +0800, majj81 wrote:
>    hi:
>      Good afternoon.
>      Has this problem solved in the URL
>    [1]http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2006-April/338849.html .
>    Now I have the same problem to deal with. If you have any suggestion
>    please tell me.
>      Thanks.
>                                    Johnny Ma
>                                            come from China
> 
> 
> 
> 
>    ?? ?? ?? ?? ??  1/2? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??
>    [2]?? ? ?? ?? '? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??  1/2? ?? ?? ??  1/4 1/4 ?? ????'' ?? Ajax
>    1/4 1/4 ????126 ??D  1/4? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??
> 
> References
> 
>    Visible links
>    1. http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2006-April/338849.html
>    2. http://www.126.com/

> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From hancock at anansispaceworks.com  Fri Jun  2 04:21:55 2006
From: hancock at anansispaceworks.com (Terry Hancock)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 02:21:55 +0000
Subject: Best Python Editor
In-Reply-To: <e5jq99$so1$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.24508.1149069603.27774.python-list@python.org>	<BHEEKBFODALGBHHKCOFFOECKCGAA.manojk@sasken.com>
	<e5jq99$so1$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <447FA0C3.5030904@anansispaceworks.com>

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
>  "Manoj Kumar P" wrote:
> > Can anyone tell me a good python editor/IDE?
>  emacs!
[...]
Fredrik Lundh wrote:
>  "Manoj Kumar P" wrote:
> > Can anyone tell me a good python editor/IDE?
>  vim!

There is much truth in this man's replies.  ;-D

Cheers,
Terry


-- 
Terry Hancock (hancock at AnansiSpaceworks.com)
Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com



From andyrsmith at googlemail.com  Thu Jun  1 10:14:28 2006
From: andyrsmith at googlemail.com (andyrsmith at googlemail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 01:14:28 -0700
Subject: Best Python Editor
References: <mailman.24508.1149069603.27774.python-list@python.org>
	<BHEEKBFODALGBHHKCOFFOECKCGAA.manojk@sasken.com>
	<mailman.6374.1149093722.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149149668.113003.142940@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

If we could go back to emacs again for a second...

I'm still using emacs but have been playing with a few other ide's
(wing, komodo + pydev) are the ones i've given a go recently.

However I still end up coming back to emacs for what I consider to be
emacs mode's piece of 'killer functionality', (well, killer for me
anyway :-) ) which is the C-c C-c shortcut to send the contents of the
current buffer to a running interpreter. (i.e. one long-running
interpreter that behaves as if the entire buffer had been retyped).

Not very useful on first glance, but compared with what I've found to
be the 'standard' run-this-script-in-a-new-interpreter function the
other ides seem to have it has the following advantages.

1/ No wait for another interpreter to start up

2/ It lets you do the following in a script which lends itself to a
much tighter edit-run loop ...

try:
   runOnce
except:
   doSomePainfulDataGathering()
   runOnce = 1

doSomeLessPainfulDataProcessing()

i.e. the painful part will only get executed once, so its cost can be
amortized over multiple runs of the script. Of course care has to be
taken to ensure the script doesn't violate causality (i.e. code can
creep in that depends on variables that haven't yet been initialized) ,
but in practice I haven't found it to be much of a problem. (And can be
checked quickly by simply killing the running interpreter and starting
a fresh one).

Anyway, the question is whether or not any of the other IDE's support
this style of working, (I say I'd *played* with some of them but can't
swear I'd dug through every nook and cranny of all of their menu
options)

Cheers,

A.



From fabiofz at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 12:46:51 2006
From: fabiofz at gmail.com (Fabio Zadrozny)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:46:51 -0300
Subject: Best Python Editor
In-Reply-To: <1149149668.113003.142940@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.24508.1149069603.27774.python-list@python.org>
	<BHEEKBFODALGBHHKCOFFOECKCGAA.manojk@sasken.com>
	<mailman.6374.1149093722.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149149668.113003.142940@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <cfb578b20606010346i162519d3sa1388030a50eb873@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 Jun 2006 01:14:28 -0700, andyrsmith at googlemail.com <
andyrsmith at googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> If we could go back to emacs again for a second...
>
> I'm still using emacs but have been playing with a few other ide's
> (wing, komodo + pydev) are the ones i've given a go recently.
>
> However I still end up coming back to emacs for what I consider to be
> emacs mode's piece of 'killer functionality', (well, killer for me
> anyway :-) ) which is the C-c C-c shortcut to send the contents of the
> current buffer to a running interpreter. (i.e. one long-running
> interpreter that behaves as if the entire buffer had been retyped).
>

Have you checked pydev extensions? It has an 'interactive console' which can
do what you just said (but different keybinding, as it would require you to
select all you want: Ctrl+A and then send it to the buffer: Ctrl+Enter, but
on the other hand, it can do much more too)

You can check details at
http://www.fabioz.com/pydev/manual_adv_interactive_console.html

If there's something missing there, you can submit a feature-request...

Cheers,

Fabio
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From jzgoda at o2.usun.pl  Thu Jun  1 22:23:43 2006
From: jzgoda at o2.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:23:43 +0200
Subject: Best Python Editor
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6361.1149070527.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.24508.1149069603.27774.python-list@python.org>	<BHEEKBFODALGBHHKCOFFOECKCGAA.manojk@sasken.com>
	<mailman.6361.1149070527.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <e5nid8$2vc$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>

Fredrik Lundh napisa?(a):

>>Can anyone tell me a good python editor/IDE?
> 
> vim!

jEdit!

>>It would be great if you can provide the download link also.
> 
> google it!

google it!

:D                        (I love these Vim <-> Emacs disputes)

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From yairchu at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 10:16:14 2006
From: yairchu at gmail.com (yairchu at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 01:16:14 -0700
Subject: Best Python Editor
References: <mailman.24508.1149069603.27774.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.6359.1149069835.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149149773.999940.13500@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

> Can anyone tell me a good python editor/IDE?
> It would be great if you can provide the download link also.

WingIDE is very good.
It gives very nice completions and has a nice thing called "source
assistant" that shows the help of the function you're standing on and
etc.
But I don't think it's open-source and freei if that bothers you
http://www.wingware.com/

Another good one is idlespoon.
this one is open-source and freei
http://idlespoon.python-hosting.com/



From vadim.feelsgood at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 14:26:31 2006
From: vadim.feelsgood at gmail.com (vadim.feelsgood at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 05:26:31 -0700
Subject: Best Python Editor
In-Reply-To: <1149149773.999940.13500@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.24508.1149069603.27774.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.6359.1149069835.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149149773.999940.13500@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149164791.002020.210000@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

I use WingIDE too. It is very convenient. Good auto-completion feature.
It is not so heavy as Komodo.
WingIDE was my the second step after Komodo.
Just try it and u'll understand how it is good.

yairchu at gmail.com wrote:
> > Can anyone tell me a good python editor/IDE?
> > It would be great if you can provide the download link also.
>
> WingIDE is very good.
> It gives very nice completions and has a nice thing called "source
> assistant" that shows the help of the function you're standing on and
> etc.
> But I don't think it's open-source and freei if that bothers you
> http://www.wingware.com/
>
> Another good one is idlespoon.
> this one is open-source and freei
> http://idlespoon.python-hosting.com/



From bucodi at yahoo.fr.invalid  Thu Jun  1 12:19:30 2006
From: bucodi at yahoo.fr.invalid (Rony Steelandt)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:19:30 +0200
Subject: Best Python Editor
References: <mailman.6359.1149069835.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <mn.0ae37d66d81477c8.43626@yahoo.fr.invalid>

I have to admit that I'm testing eclipse with pydev at the moment, and 
it looks realy good

Rony

> Hi,
>
> Can anyone tell me a good python editor/IDE?
> It would be great if you can provide the download link also.
>
> Thank You,
> -Manoj-
>
>
> "SASKEN RATED Among THE Top 3 BEST COMPANIES TO WORK FOR IN INDIA - SURVEY 
> 2005 conducted by the BUSINESS TODAY - Mercer - TNS India"
>
>                            SASKEN BUSINESS DISCLAIMER
> This message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally Privileged 
> information. In case you are not the original intended Recipient of the 
> message, you must not, directly or indirectly, use, Disclose, distribute, 
> print, or copy any part of this message and you are requested to delete it 
> and inform the sender. Any views expressed in this message are those of the 
> individual sender unless otherwise stated. Nothing contained in this message 
> shall be construed as an offer or acceptance of any offer by Sasken 
> Communication Technologies Limited ("Sasken") unless sent with that express 
> intent and with due authority of Sasken. Sasken has taken enough precautions 
> to prevent the spread of viruses. However the company accepts no liability 
> for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email


-- 
---
Rony Steelandt
BuCodi
rony dot steelandt (at) bucodi dot com

Visit the python blog at http://360.yahoo.com/bucodi




From mystilleef at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 21:27:41 2006
From: mystilleef at gmail.com (mystilleef)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 12:27:41 -0700
Subject: Best Python Editor
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6359.1149069835.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.24508.1149069603.27774.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.6359.1149069835.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149190061.258740.66740@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

http://scribes.sourceforge.net/

http://scribes.sourceforge.net/snippets.htm (Flash Demo)

Manoj Kumar P wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Can anyone tell me a good python editor/IDE?
> It would be great if you can provide the download link also.
>
> Thank You,
> -Manoj-
>
>
> "SASKEN RATED Among THE Top 3 BEST COMPANIES TO WORK FOR IN INDIA - SURVEY 2005 conducted by the BUSINESS TODAY - Mercer - TNS India"
>
>                            SASKEN BUSINESS DISCLAIMER
> This message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally Privileged information. In case you are not the original intended Recipient of the message, you must not, directly or indirectly, use, Disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message and you are requested to delete it and inform the sender. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender unless otherwise stated. Nothing contained in this message shall be construed as an offer or acceptance of any offer by Sasken Communication Technologies Limited ("Sasken") unless sent with that express intent and with due authority of Sasken. Sasken has taken enough precautions to prevent the spread of viruses. However the company accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email



From sturnfie at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 22:08:44 2006
From: sturnfie at gmail.com (sturnfie at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 13:08:44 -0700
Subject: Best Python Editor
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6359.1149069835.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.24508.1149069603.27774.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.6359.1149069835.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149192524.269902.46240@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

In a windows enviroment, I am a big fan of conTEXT

http://www.context.cx/

. Very powerful syntax highlighting for many, many languages
. project workspace support
. code template support
. great file browsing and favorites support
. good search/replace support across all open files

In a unix enviroment, i use eclipse or vim

--
lucas


Manoj Kumar P wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Can anyone tell me a good python editor/IDE?
> It would be great if you can provide the download link also.
> 
> Thank You,
> -Manoj-



From edreamleo at charter.net  Fri Jun  2 18:14:52 2006
From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:14:52 -0500
Subject: Best Python Editor
References: <mailman.6359.1149069835.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7uZfg.4$5t3.2@fe07.lga>

I like scite for small tasks, Leo for larger tasks and python scripting. 
Leo's script buttons are something probably no other tool has:

http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/customizing.html#creating-script-buttons

Edward
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From nicogrubert at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 10:00:49 2006
From: nicogrubert at gmail.com (Nico Grubert)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:00:49 +0200
Subject: os.popen3() - how to close cmd window automatically?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.24526.1149083703.27774.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.24526.1149083703.27774.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <447E9EB1.6090506@gmail.com>

> replace console=[... by windows=[... in your setup.py

Works perfect. Thank you, Rony!


From mateus.justino at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 01:09:32 2006
From: mateus.justino at gmail.com (mateus)
Date: 31 May 2006 16:09:32 -0700
Subject: Variable name has a typo, but code still works. Why?
References: <1149082236.151844.99600@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1149083447.370584.197070@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149116972.201718.155660@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Well, one by one I checked for the presence of both sessions and
session in the globals dictionary (within showReport(), but outside of
the loops).

Neither one of them existed previously, thus and I received the
exception about them not being found:


  File "/home/mjpl/hct/repository/hct/tutoo.py", line 219, in loadNext
    self.loadStage(self.cur+1)
  File "/home/mjpl/hct/repository/hct/tutoo.py", line 195, in loadStage
    self.stageFrame.show()
  File
"/home/mjpl/hct/repository/hct/stages/resultadoframe/resultadoframe.py",
line 17, in show
    self.listView.showReport()
  File "/home/mjpl/hct/repository/hct/widgets/deviceview.py", line 54,
in showReport
    print globals()['session']
KeyError: 'session'

So, I tried using other variable names for the outer and inner loops
with the only difference of one letter.  I then got the expected
message about the variable name not being encountered.

I returned the variable names to 'sessions' and 'session' respectively,
and I got the same error about the name 'session' not being founded.  I
can only assume that there was some type of cache problem.  Could it
have been in the .pyc?  I thought that was recompiled every time a .py
is run/set to be interpreted.  I'm sure I got that last sentence wrong.

hwiechers at gmail.com wrote:
> mateus wrote:
> > print "hello world"
> >
> > I have a nested loop where the outer loop iterates over key value pairs
> > of a dictionary and the inner loop iterates over a list each list of
> > which is a mapped value from the dictionary
> >
> >     def showReport(self):
> >         for dev, sessions in self.logger.items():
> >             for tree in session:
> >                 self.addTestItem(self, tree)
> >
> > What I don't understand is why this executes w/o any problems when
> > "sessions" was spelled as plural (sessionS) while later being spelled
> > in the singular (session).
> >
> > Is there some type of name resolution of local variables where Python
> > makes assumptions?
>
> I've never heard of a rule disregarding ending 's'es and I really doubt
> one
> exists.
>
> Are you sure session isn't a global variable? You can check using
> globals().



From rpdooling at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 02:31:40 2006
From: rpdooling at gmail.com (BartlebyScrivener)
Date: 31 May 2006 17:31:40 -0700
Subject: Variable name has a typo, but code still works. Why?
References: <1149082236.151844.99600@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1149083447.370584.197070@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<1149116972.201718.155660@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149121900.895494.24360@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

> I can only assume that there was some type of cache problem.  Could it
> have been in the .pyc?  I thought that was recompiled every time a .py
> is run/set to be interpreted.

If you are on Windows, check your PATHEXT environment variable and make
sure that .py is listed ahead of .pyc and any other .py?

See, e.g., a bug in earlier versions of ActiveState distrib

http://tinyurl.com/qok9v

rd

"Electricity is actually made up of extremely tiny particles called
electrons, that you cannot see with the naked eye unless you have been
drinking."--Dave Barry



From jmcmonagle at velseis.com.au  Thu Jun  1 01:19:00 2006
From: jmcmonagle at velseis.com.au (John McMonagle)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 09:19:00 +1000
Subject: Tkinter question
In-Reply-To: <9583ed900605310837q57eb8b76h6ac5e9c435bf885@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9583ed900605310837q57eb8b76h6ac5e9c435bf885@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1149117540.26711.9.camel@kuepper.vels-int.com.au>

On Wed, 2006-05-31 at 11:37 -0400, david brochu jr wrote:
> I am trying to create a GUI that will display a new window with
> information about my program when the user clicks on the info button
> (a green "i" bitmap). So far all I can get my program to do is show
> the new window (using Toplevel() ) when the program loads, not when
> the user presses the information bitmap. I think it has something to
> do with my command for the information button. Anyone have any ideas
> or have a GOOD resource that they could point me to?
>  

Indeed the problem is to do with your command for the information
button.

Keeping it in your coding style, change it to:

self.info_bttn["command"] = self.info

Regards,

John

> 


-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.



From aurora00 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 22:32:04 2006
From: aurora00 at gmail.com (aurora00 at gmail.com)
Date: 26 Jun 2006 13:32:04 -0700
Subject: Find the context of importer
In-Reply-To: <1149091076.533062.302640@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149091076.533062.302640@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1151353924.002099.255600@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

I find the answer to my own question. The inspect module have what I
need.

Here is the sample code:

a.py
------------------------------------------------------------------------
import b
print 'hello world from module a'
------------------------------------------------------------------------


b.py
------------------------------------------------------------------------
import inspect

def globals_of_importer():
    """ Return the global namespace of the module that imports this
module. """

    # scan the stack using the inspect module
    stack = inspect.stack()

    # current frame is on the top of the stack
    top_rec = stack[0]
    current_filename = top_rec[1]

    # look for the frame those filename different from current frame
    for frame_rec in stack:
        filename = frame_rec[1]
        if filename != current_filename:
            break
    else:
        return None

    # return the globals from the frame object
    frame = frame_rec[0]
    members = inspect.getmembers(frame)
    for name, value in members:
        if name == 'f_globals':
            return value
    else:
        return None

print globals_of_importer()
------------------------------------------------------------------------

wy



From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Thu Jun  1 01:28:09 2006
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 19:28:09 -0400
Subject: TSV to HTML
In-Reply-To: <1149098823.979329.9220@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149098823.979329.9220@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447e268a$0$3699$4d3efbfe@news.sover.net>

Brian wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone here on the group could point me in a
> direction that would expllaing how to use python to convert a tsv file
> to html.  I have been searching for a resource but have only seen
> information on dealing with converting csv to tsv.  Specifically I want
> to take the values and insert them into an html table.

import csv
from xml.sax.saxutils import escape

def tsv_to_html(input_file, output_file):
     output_file.write('<table><tbody>\n')
     for row in csv.reader(input_file, 'excel-tab'):
         output_file.write('<tr>')
         for col in row:
             output_file.write('<td>%s</td>' % escape(col))
         output_file.write('</tr>\n')
     output_file.write('</tbody></table>')

Usage example:

 >>> from cStringIO import StringIO
 >>> input_file = StringIO('"foo"\t"bar"\t"baz"\n'
...                       '"qux"\t"quux"\t"quux"\n')
 >>> output_file = StringIO()
 >>> tsv_to_html(input_file, output_file)
 >>> print output_file.getvalue()
<table><tbody>
<tr><td>foo</td><td>bar</td><td>baz</td></tr>
<tr><td>qux</td><td>quux</td><td>quux</td></tr>
</tbody></table>


From bnblazer at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 03:48:30 2006
From: bnblazer at gmail.com (Brian)
Date: 31 May 2006 18:48:30 -0700
Subject: TSV to HTML
In-Reply-To: <447e268a$0$3699$4d3efbfe@news.sover.net>
References: <1149098823.979329.9220@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<447e268a$0$3699$4d3efbfe@news.sover.net>
Message-ID: <1149126509.984331.306530@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


First let me say that I appreciate the responses that everyone has
given.

A friend of mine is a ruby programmer but knows nothing about python.
He gave me the script below and it does exactly what I want, only it is
in Ruby.  Not knowing ruby this is greek to me, and I would like to
re-write it in python.

I ask then, is this essentially what others here have shown me to do,
or is it in a different vein all together?

Code:

class TsvToHTML
	@@styleBlock = <<-ENDMARK
	<style type='text/css'>
	td {
		border-left:1px solid #000000;
		padding-right:4px;
		padding-left:4px;
		white-space: nowrap;
	}
	.cellTitle {
		border-bottom:1px solid #000000;
		background:#ffffe0;
		font-weight: bold;
		text-align: center;
	}
	.cell0 { background:#eff1f1; }
	.cell1 { background:#f8f8f8; }
	</style>
	ENDMARK

	def TsvToHTML::wrapTag(data,tag,modifier = "")
		return "<#{tag} #{modifier}>" + data + "</#{tag}>\n"
	end # wrapTag

	def TsvToHTML::makePage(source)
		page = ""
		rowNum = 0
		source.readlines.each { |record|
			row = ""
			record.chomp.split("\t").each { |field|
				# replace blank fields with &nbsp;
				field.sub!(/^$/,"&nbsp;")
				# wrap in TD tag, specify style
				row += wrapTag(field,"td","class=\"" +
				((rowNum == 0)?"cellTitle":"cell#{rowNum % 2}") +
				"\"")
			}
			rowNum += 1
			# wrap in TR tag, add row to page
			page += wrapTag(row,"tr") + "\n"
		}
		# finish page formatting
		[ [ "table","cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 border=0" ], "body","html"
].each { |tag|
			page = wrapTag(@@styleBlock,"head") + page if tag == "html"
			page = wrapTag(page,*tag)
		}
		return page
	end # makePage
end # class

# stdin -> convert -> stdout
print TsvToHTML.makePage(STDIN)



From paddy3118 at netscape.net  Thu Jun  1 07:31:15 2006
From: paddy3118 at netscape.net (Paddy)
Date: 31 May 2006 22:31:15 -0700
Subject: TSV to HTML
References: <1149098823.979329.9220@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<447e268a$0$3699$4d3efbfe@news.sover.net>
	<1149126509.984331.306530@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149139875.503669.57900@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Brian wrote:
> First let me say that I appreciate the responses that everyone has
> given.
>
> A friend of mine is a ruby programmer but knows nothing about python.
> He gave me the script below and it does exactly what I want, only it is
> in Ruby.  Not knowing ruby this is greek to me, and I would like to
> re-write it in python.
>
> I ask then, is this essentially what others here have shown me to do,
> or is it in a different vein all together?
>
Leif's Python example uses the csv module which understands a lot more
about the peculiarities of the CSV/TSV formats.
The Ruby example prepends a <style>...</style> block.

The Ruby example splits each line to form a table row and each row on
tabs, to form the cells.

The thing about TSV/CSV formats is that their is no one format. you
need to check how your TSV creator generates the TSV file:
 Does it put quotes around text fields?
 What kind of quotes?
 How does it represent null fields?
 Might you get fields that include newlines?

- P.S. I'm not a Ruby programmer, just read the source ;-)



From bnblazer at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 12:29:35 2006
From: bnblazer at gmail.com (Brian)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 03:29:35 -0700
Subject: TSV to HTML
In-Reply-To: <cvus72hb5midi9t6deqssn41aka1g5ivra@4ax.com>
References: <1149098823.979329.9220@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<447e268a$0$3699$4d3efbfe@news.sover.net>
	<1149126509.984331.306530@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<cvus72hb5midi9t6deqssn41aka1g5ivra@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1149157775.490474.173970@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Dennis,

Thank you for that response.  Your code was very helpful to me.  I
think that actually seeing how it should be done in Python was a lot
more educational than spending hours with trial and error.

One question (and this is a topic that I still have trouble getting my
arms around).  Why is the text in STYLEBLOCK tripple quoted?

Thanks again,
Brian



From scott.daniels at acm.org  Thu Jun  1 18:22:25 2006
From: scott.daniels at acm.org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 09:22:25 -0700
Subject: TSV to HTML
In-Reply-To: <1149157775.490474.173970@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149098823.979329.9220@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<447e268a$0$3699$4d3efbfe@news.sover.net>
	<1149126509.984331.306530@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<cvus72hb5midi9t6deqssn41aka1g5ivra@4ax.com>
	<1149157775.490474.173970@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447f0fdb$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Brian wrote:
> One question (and this is a topic that I still have trouble getting my
> arms around).  Why is the text in STYLEBLOCK tripple quoted?

Because triple-quoted strings can span lines and include single quotes
and double quotes.

-- 
--Scott David Daniels
scott.daniels at acm.org


From bnblazer at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 00:27:22 2006
From: bnblazer at gmail.com (Brian)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 15:27:22 -0700
Subject: TSV to HTML
In-Reply-To: <7f5u721mhaauqak62krrb4p9ruhicaus45@4ax.com>
References: <1149098823.979329.9220@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<447e268a$0$3699$4d3efbfe@news.sover.net>
	<1149126509.984331.306530@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<cvus72hb5midi9t6deqssn41aka1g5ivra@4ax.com>
	<1149157775.490474.173970@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<7f5u721mhaauqak62krrb4p9ruhicaus45@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1149200842.674309.323930@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>


Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On 1 Jun 2006 03:29:35 -0700, "Brian" <bnblazer at gmail.com> declaimed the
> following in comp.lang.python:
>
> > Thank you for that response.  Your code was very helpful to me.  I
> > think that actually seeing how it should be done in Python was a lot
> > more educational than spending hours with trial and error.
> >
> 	It's not the best code around -- I hacked it together pretty much
> line-for-line from an assumption of what the Ruby was doing (I don't do
> Ruby -- too much PERL idiom in it)
>
> > One question (and this is a topic that I still have trouble getting my
> > arms around).  Why is the text in STYLEBLOCK tripple quoted?
> >
> 	Triple quotes allow: 1) use of single quotes within the block
> without needing to escape them; 2) allows the string to span multiple
> lines. Plain string quoting must be one logical line to the parser.
>
> 	I've practically never seen anyone use a line continuation character
> in Python. And triple quoting looks cleaner than parser concatenation.
>
> 	The alternatives would have been:
>
> Line Continuation:
> STYLEBLOCK = '\n\
> <style type="text/css">\n\
> td {\n\
>     border-left:1px solid #000000;\n\
>     padding-right:4px;\n\
>     padding-left:4px;\n\
>     white-space: nowrap;    }\n\
> .cellTitle {\n\
>     border-bottom:1px solid #000000;\n\
>     background:#ffffe0;\n\
>     font-weight: bold;\n\
>     text-align: center; }\n\
> .cell0 { background:#3ff1f1;    }\n\
> .cell1 { background:#f8f8f8;    }\n\
> </style>\n\
> '
> 	Note the \n\ as the end of each line; the \n is to keep the
> formatting on the generated HTML (otherwise everything would be one long
> line) and the final \ (which must be the physical end of line)
> signifying "this line is continued". Also note that I used ' rather than
> " to avoid escaping the " on text/css.
>
> Parser Concatenation:
> STYLEBLOCK = (
> '<style type="text/css">\n'
> "td {\n"
> "    border-left:1px solid #000000;\n"
> "    padding-right:4px;\n"
> "    padding-left:4px;\n"
> "    white-space: nowrap;    }\n"
> ".cellTitle {\n"
> "    border-bottom:1px solid #000000;\n"
> "    background:#ffffe0;\n"
> "    font-weight: bold;\n"
> "    text-align: center; }\n"
> ".cell0 { background:#3ff1f1;    }\n"
> ".cell1 { background:#f8f8f8;    }\n"
> "</style>\n"
> )
>
> 	Note the use of ( ) where the original had """ """. Also note that
> each line has quotes at start/end (the first has ' to avoid escaping
> text/css). There are no commas separating each line (and the \n is still
> for formatting). Using the ( ) creates an expression, and Python is nice
> enough to let one split expressions inside () or [lists], {dicts}, over
> multiple lines (I used that feature in a few spots to put call arguments
> on multiple lines). Two strings that are next to each other
>
> 	"string1" "string2"
>
> are parsed as one string
>
> 	"string1string2"
>
> 	Using """ (or ''') is the cleanest of those choices, especially if
> you want to do preformatted layout of the text. It works similar to the
> Ruby/PERL construct that basically said: Copy all text up to the next
> occurrence of MARKER_STRING.

Thank you for your explanation, now it makes sense.

Brian



From yinglcs at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 03:52:41 2006
From: yinglcs at gmail.com (yinglcs at gmail.com)
Date: 31 May 2006 18:52:41 -0700
Subject: Save data to a file thru a http connection
In-Reply-To: <447e0221$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
References: <1149100667.391141.222280@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<447e0221$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <1149126761.726836.73360@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Scott,

Can you please tell me which chapter of the tutorial that you are
referring to http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html?

The only chapter that I find about http is chapter 10.7, but it does
not have the example that you are referring to

Scott David Daniels wrote:
> yinglcs at gmail.com wrote:
> > I am new to python. I read an example here about how to fetch data thru
> > a HTTP connection:
> > http://diveintopython.org/http_web_services/review.html,
> >
> > My question is how can i save the data to a file after reading it from
> > a http connection.
>
> Do the tutorial and this and many other things will become clear.
>
> Instead of just "print sometext", do something like:
>      ...
>      f = open('filename', 'w')
>      ...
>      print >>f, sometext
>      ... (possibly more prints like the above).
>      f.close()
> 
> --Scott David Daniels
> scott.daniels at acm.org



From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Thu Jun  1 04:14:45 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:14:45 +1000
Subject: Save data to a file thru a http connection
In-Reply-To: <1149126761.726836.73360@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149100667.391141.222280@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<447e0221$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<1149126761.726836.73360@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447E4D95.4040805@lexicon.net>

On 1/06/2006 11:52 AM, yinglcs at gmail.com wrote:
> Scott,
> 
> Can you please tell me which chapter of the tutorial that you are
> referring to http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html?
> 
> The only chapter that I find about http is chapter 10.7, but it does
> not have the example that you are referring to


Break the problem up into two parts:

(1) Get some data.

You've achieved that, using HTTP.

(2) Save some data to a file.

Doesn't matter *how* you got the data. You need to know how to open a 
file for writing and how to write to it and how to close it when you've 
finished. Look for the section in the tutorial about *files*.

Better still, read *all* the sections in the tutorial :-)


> 
> Scott David Daniels wrote:
>> yinglcs at gmail.com wrote:
>>> I am new to python. I read an example here about how to fetch data thru
>>> a HTTP connection:
>>> http://diveintopython.org/http_web_services/review.html,
>>>
>>> My question is how can i save the data to a file after reading it from
>>> a http connection.
>> Do the tutorial and this and many other things will become clear.
>>
>> Instead of just "print sometext", do something like:
>>      ...
>>      f = open('filename', 'w')
>>      ...
>>      print >>f, sometext
>>      ... (possibly more prints like the above).
>>      f.close()
>>
>> --Scott David Daniels
>> scott.daniels at acm.org
> 


From pydecker at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 01:35:37 2006
From: pydecker at gmail.com (Peter Decker)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 19:35:37 -0400
Subject: using import * with GUIs?
In-Reply-To: <bsmfg.2202$No6.47400@news.tufts.edu>
References: <R2mfg.2200$No6.47332@news.tufts.edu>
	<mailman.6381.1149104575.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<bsmfg.2202$No6.47400@news.tufts.edu>
Message-ID: <ca55a9900605311635q6876dcffj196db2463c8fd50c@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/31/06, John Salerno <johnjsal at nospamgmail.com> wrote:

> I guess if I'm going to learn a GUI, I might as well jump right into
> wxPython from the beginning.

May I recommend that you take a look at the Dabo project? While they
have a full application framework for creating database applications,
you can easily just use the dabo.ui module, which wraps wxPython. This
eliminates most of the C++ cruft that wxPython inherited from
wxWidgets, and makes for a much more Pythonic experience.

I worked with wxPython for a couple of years, and looked at Dabo based
on a recommendation on the wxPython list. Since then, I haven't
written a single app using raw wxPython; I use the dabo.ui module for
all my GUI applications. It gives you all the advantages of wxPython,
but it just works better.

-- 

# p.d.


From ippisl at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 00:29:11 2006
From: ippisl at gmail.com (ippisl at gmail.com)
Date: 31 May 2006 15:29:11 -0700
Subject: OT: Search for python in Norway
In-Reply-To: <1149108651.205786.99100@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149108651.205786.99100@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149114551.858491.231890@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

your search for python refers for python=snake.
you should look for "python programming".

cyberco wrote:
> Although the climate wouldn't make you think so, but searching for
> python is hot in Norway:
>
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=python&ctab=1&geo=all&date=all
>
> I wonder what the explanation could be.
>
> Btw: Java seems to be all the rage in India :)
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=java&ctab=1&geo=all&date=all



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Jun  1 01:34:52 2006
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 19:34:52 -0400
Subject: OT: Search for python in Norway
References: <1149108651.205786.99100@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149114551.858491.231890@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5l96s$bhb$1@sea.gmane.org>


<ippisl at gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1149114551.858491.231890 at i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> your search for python refers for python=snake.

It combines both, but spikes are definately snakey.

> you should look for "python programming".

I tried that, and Google missed the Nokia article it found with python 
alone.
Also, South Africa and India are hottest countries with their 
normalization.

http://www.google.com/trends?q=python+programming&ctab=1&geo=all&date=all

tjr 





From riklaunim at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 00:04:41 2006
From: riklaunim at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-2?Q?piotr_mali=F1ski?=)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 23:04:41 +0100
Subject: is a wiki engine based on a cvs/svn a good idea?
Message-ID: <1f7f7cf70605311504q1bb9660em2a8e6dcefd01e49d@mail.gmail.com>

I'm planning to wite a fully featured wiki in Python in one of
frameworks. I've seen some notes about wiki/documentation management
scripts that use SVN as a data storage/versioning.
I've been using SVN a bit but I don't know if it's a good idea to use
it in a wiki engine. Pro: versioning / diffs, Cons: you need your own
svn/cvs repository, can pyLucene or Xapwrap index this?


From gdamjan at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 00:33:54 2006
From: gdamjan at gmail.com (Damjan)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 00:33:54 +0200
Subject: is a wiki engine based on a cvs/svn a good idea?
References: <mailman.6384.1149113085.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <447e19d2$0$15788$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>

> I'm planning to wite a fully featured wiki in Python in one of
> frameworks. I've seen some notes about wiki/documentation management
> scripts that use SVN as a data storage/versioning.

Cool

> I've been using SVN a bit but I don't know if it's a good idea to use
> it in a wiki engine. Pro: versioning / diffs, Cons: you need your own
> svn/cvs repository, can pyLucene or Xapwrap index this?

You can certanly index the svn checkout if nothing else.

-- 
damjan


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Thu Jun  1 04:14:20 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 04:14:20 +0200
Subject: is a wiki engine based on a cvs/svn a good idea?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6384.1149113085.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6384.1149113085.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <447e1dfc$0$20866$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

piotr maliski a ?crit :
> I'm planning to wite a fully featured wiki in Python

Then first have a look at both moinmoin and Trac. Good part of the job 
is already done.

> in one of
> frameworks. I've seen some notes about wiki/documentation management
> scripts that use SVN as a data storage/versioning.
> I've been using SVN a bit but I don't know if it's a good idea to use
> it in a wiki engine.

This has been discussed for Trac, cf:
http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/wiki/TighterSubversionIntegration
http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/wiki/WhySQLite

> Pro: versioning / diffs, 
 > Cons: you need your own svn/cvs repository,
 > can pyLucene or Xapwrap index this?



From usenet.rpdillon at xoxy.net  Fri Jun  2 04:45:20 2006
From: usenet.rpdillon at xoxy.net (R. P. Dillon)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 19:45:20 -0700
Subject: is a wiki engine based on a cvs/svn a good idea?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6384.1149113085.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6384.1149113085.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149215920_13437@sp6iad.superfeed.net>

TWiki, written in perl, makes extensive use of versioning/diff 
functionality you mention through the use of RCS, which, IIRC, is the 
basis for CVS.  This method eliminates the need for the repository as 
such, and merely requires the presence of the RCS files (and RCS).

Unless you _want_ to host your data on a separate machine than the one 
hosting the wiki, you might consider RCS as an alternative to CVS.

OTOH, it is clearly a good idea to base your software on such a tool, 
given that TWiki does it and has proven to be quite successful.  =)

Rick

piotr malin'ski wrote:
> I'm planning to wite a fully featured wiki in Python in one of
> frameworks. I've seen some notes about wiki/documentation management
> scripts that use SVN as a data storage/versioning.
> I've been using SVN a bit but I don't know if it's a good idea to use
> it in a wiki engine. Pro: versioning / diffs, Cons: you need your own
> svn/cvs repository, can pyLucene or Xapwrap index this?


From jcb at iteris.com  Thu Jun  1 00:53:30 2006
From: jcb at iteris.com (Metalone)
Date: 31 May 2006 15:53:30 -0700
Subject: ctypes pointers and SendMessage
Message-ID: <1149116010.351538.258990@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

I would like to call
windll.user32.SendMessageA(hwnd, win32con.WM_COMMAND, wParam, lParam)
where
lParam represents a pointer to an object.

And also convert this pointer back to an object reference inside of
wnd_proc
def wnd_proc(hwnd, msg, wParam, lParam):

So something like this:
class X(Structure):
    def __init__(self, x):
        self.v = x

x = X(1)
windll.user32.SendMessageA(hwnd, WM_COMMAND, 4000, addressof(x))

def wnd_proc(hwnd, msg, wParam, lParam):
    if msg == WM_COMMAND and wParam == 4000):
        x = X.from_address(lParam)
        print x.v

Unfortunately, this does not work.

Also to my surprise the following does not work:
x1 = X(1)
x2 = X.from_address(addressof(x1))
addressof(x1) == addressof(x2) --> True
but
x2.v --> 'object has no attribute v'
x1.v --> 1

Also this does not work as I expect.
p = pointer(x)
p[0].v --> 'object has no attribute v'.

What am I doing wrong?



From michele.petrazzo at TOGLIunipex.it  Thu Jun  1 10:04:28 2006
From: michele.petrazzo at TOGLIunipex.it (Michele Petrazzo)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:04:28 GMT
Subject: ctypes pointers and SendMessage
In-Reply-To: <1149116010.351538.258990@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149116010.351538.258990@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <gcxfg.20337$cX1.310439@twister2.libero.it>

Metalone wrote:
> I would like to call
> windll.user32.SendMessageA(hwnd, win32con.WM_COMMAND, wParam, lParam)
> where
> lParam represents a pointer to an object.

and the others?

> 
> And also convert this pointer back to an object reference inside of
> wnd_proc
> def wnd_proc(hwnd, msg, wParam, lParam):
> 
> So something like this:
> class X(Structure):
>     def __init__(self, x):
>         self.v = x
> 
> What am I doing wrong?
> 


I don't know if you want to create a "real" C structure. If yes this is
the wrong method:

 >>> class X(Structure):
...  _fields_ = [("x", c_int), ]
...
 >>> x1 = X(1)
 >>> x1.x
1
 >>>

http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/ctypes/tutorial.html -> 
Structures and Unions

Michele


From jcb at iteris.com  Thu Jun  1 20:50:48 2006
From: jcb at iteris.com (Metalone)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 11:50:48 -0700
Subject: ctypes pointers and SendMessage
In-Reply-To: <gcxfg.20337$cX1.310439@twister2.libero.it>
References: <1149116010.351538.258990@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<gcxfg.20337$cX1.310439@twister2.libero.it>
Message-ID: <1149187848.273374.153400@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Ok, I see what I did wrong.
I forgot to define the _fields_ variable.



From go at away.com  Thu Jun  1 01:24:01 2006
From: go at away.com (3rdshiftcoder)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 23:24:01 GMT
Subject: beginner: using parameter in functions
Message-ID: <lApfg.128$Cw3.54@trndny01>

hi-

i am having trouble using parameter values in my function and to be honest a 
little trouble with
member variables.  i am trying to pass in the argument 'd' representing 
delete.
what the code will do is if it is 'd' it will make a delete query template 
string.
if it is an 'i' then insert query etc.

this is the results of my attempt to print the contents of the parameter 
values.
<__main__.getQryStr instance at 0x01151D50> ('d',) me mad


(and on a side note if i dont include the *args i get an invalid number of 
parameters supplied message.)
why is it returning the value in this format ('d',) ?
i cant get x == d
i guess that value 'd' is stored in a tuple and i'd like to get it out of 
there.

so basically the function returns nope as it stands

python is sure different from other languages i have used.

thanks for any help,
jim


class getQryStr:
    def __init__(self,op):
        print op
        self.x = 'd'
    def returnStr(x,*args):

        print '%s %s me mad' % (x,args)
        if x == 'd':
            s = Template("delete from columndef where tblid = $tblid and 
colname = $colname")
        else:
            return 'nope' #this else is just for illustration and testing

        d = dict(tblid=t.tblid.getText(), colname=t.colName.getText())

        print s.substitute(d)

        return s

def delqry(self):

        createfldobj = getQryStr('d')
        s = createfldobj.returnStr('d')




From jmcmonagle at velseis.com.au  Thu Jun  1 01:57:13 2006
From: jmcmonagle at velseis.com.au (John McMonagle)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 09:57:13 +1000
Subject: beginner: using parameter in functions
In-Reply-To: <lApfg.128$Cw3.54@trndny01>
References: <lApfg.128$Cw3.54@trndny01>
Message-ID: <1149119833.26711.12.camel@kuepper.vels-int.com.au>

On Wed, 2006-05-31 at 23:24 +0000, 3rdshiftcoder wrote:
> hi-
> 
> i am having trouble using parameter values in my function and to be honest a 
> little trouble with
> member variables.  i am trying to pass in the argument 'd' representing 
> delete.
> what the code will do is if it is 'd' it will make a delete query template 
> string.
> if it is an 'i' then insert query etc.
> 
> this is the results of my attempt to print the contents of the parameter 
> values.
> <__main__.getQryStr instance at 0x01151D50> ('d',) me mad
> 
> 
> (and on a side note if i dont include the *args i get an invalid number of 
> parameters supplied message.)
> why is it returning the value in this format ('d',) ?
> i cant get x == d
> i guess that value 'd' is stored in a tuple and i'd like to get it out of 
> there.
> 
> so basically the function returns nope as it stands
> 
> python is sure different from other languages i have used.
> 
> thanks for any help,
> jim
> 


Try, the following:

class getQryStr:
    def __init__(self,op):
        print op
        self.x = 'd'
    def returnStr(self, *args):

        print '%s %s me mad' % (self.x,args)
        if self.x == 'd':
            s = Template("delete from columndef where tblid = $tblid and
colname = $colname")
        else:
            return 'nope' #this else is just for illustration and
testing

        d = dict(tblid=t.tblid.getText(), colname=t.colName.getText())

        print s.substitute(d)

        return s


Regards,

John



-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.



From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Thu Jun  1 02:21:05 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:21:05 +1000
Subject: beginner: using parameter in functions
In-Reply-To: <lApfg.128$Cw3.54@trndny01>
References: <lApfg.128$Cw3.54@trndny01>
Message-ID: <447e32f3@news.eftel.com>

On 1/06/2006 9:24 AM, 3rdshiftcoder wrote:
> hi-
> 
> i am having trouble using parameter values in my function and to be honest a 
> little trouble with
> member variables.  i am trying to pass in the argument 'd' representing 
> delete.
> what the code will do is if it is 'd' it will make a delete query template 
> string.
> if it is an 'i' then insert query etc.
> 
> this is the results of my attempt to print the contents of the parameter 
> values.
> <__main__.getQryStr instance at 0x01151D50> ('d',) me mad

Exactly right, first parameter is the object itself, second parameter is 
a 1-tuple of the supplied args. See more explanation below.

> 
> 
> (and on a side note if i dont include the *args i get an invalid number of 
> parameters supplied message.)
> why is it returning the value in this format ('d',) ?
> i cant get x == d
> i guess that value 'd' is stored in a tuple and i'd like to get it out of 
> there.

No, 'd' is stored as the value of the attribute you've named "x". One of 
the main points of the whole OO caper is that objects have attributes -- 
please see later remarks about the tutorial.

> 
> so basically the function returns nope as it stands
> 
> python is sure different from other languages i have used.
> 
> thanks for any help,
> jim
> 
> 
> class getQryStr:
>     def __init__(self,op):
>         print op
>         self.x = 'd'

You probably meant
self.x = op

>     def returnStr(x,*args):

Like the first (__init__) method, this should have the mandatory "self" 
argument, plus *one* other arg .. *if* you need it. It's not apparent 
why you are calling the constructor *and* the returnStr method *each* 
with 'd'.


> 
>         print '%s %s me mad' % (x,args)
>         if x == 'd':

Here x is the object that you have created. The first argument to a 
method is the object itself, and is conventionally named "self". It must 
be declared in the method itself
     def amethod(self, arg1, arg2):
but is supplied automatically when you invoke it
     anobj.amethod('foo', 42)

[snip]

Please consider working your way through the Python tutorial
     http://docs.python.org/tut/node11.html
and/or one of the free e-books e.g.
     http://www.byteofpython.info/

At the end of this post is a modified version of your script which shows 
what is going on under normal expected usage.

HTH,
John

8<=== demo script ===

C:\junk>type use_self.py
class getQryStr:

     def __init__(self, op):
         print '__init__ ... op:%r' % op
         self.x = op

     def returnStr(self, arg):
         print 'returnStr ... self.x:%r arg:%r' % (self.x, arg)
         return '=%s=%s=' % (self.x, arg)

obj = getQryStr('blah')
print '__main__ ... obj.x:%r' % obj.x
s = obj.returnStr('yadda')
print '__main__ ... s:%r' % s

8<=== output from demo script ===

C:\junk>use_self.py
__init__ ... op:'blah'
__main__ ... obj.x:'blah'
returnStr ... self.x:'blah' arg:'yadda'
__main__ ... s:'=blah=yadda='


8<=== end ===


From go at away.com  Thu Jun  1 04:21:57 2006
From: go at away.com (3rdshiftcoder)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 02:21:57 GMT
Subject: beginner: using parameter in functions
References: <lApfg.128$Cw3.54@trndny01> <447e32f3@news.eftel.com>
Message-ID: <9bsfg.240$Cw3.174@trndny01>


"John Machin" <sjmachin at lexicon.net> wrote in message 
news:447e32f3 at news.eftel.com...

thanks for the help.
it is really appreciated.

i am going to do some more reading in the next couple of days.


jim 




From go at away.com  Thu Jun  1 02:34:35 2006
From: go at away.com (3rdshiftcoder)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 00:34:35 GMT
Subject: beginner: using parameter in functions
References: <lApfg.128$Cw3.54@trndny01>
	<mailman.6388.1149119924.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <vCqfg.137$Cw3.101@trndny01>

thanks very much John!

so i can have self as function parameter as well as in a method.
that allowed me to use properties to retrieve the value set in the 
constructor.
i just changed the function return statement and it worked.
i was working along these lines but couldnt get it up and running as
fast as you posted.

templating sure is a great way to create dynamic query strings.

very cool so far but still lots to learn.

thanks again,
jim


"John McMonagle" <jmcmonagle at velseis.com.au> wrote in message 
news:mailman.6388.1149119924.27775.python-list at python.org...
> On Wed, 2006-05-31 at 23:24 +0000, 3rdshiftcoder wrote:
>> hi-
>>
>> i am having trouble using parameter values in my function and to be 
>> honest a
>> little trouble with
>> member variables.  i am trying to pass in the argument 'd' representing
>> delete.
>> what the code will do is if it is 'd' it will make a delete query 
>> template
>> string.
>> if it is an 'i' then insert query etc.
>>
>> this is the results of my attempt to print the contents of the parameter
>> values.
>> <__main__.getQryStr instance at 0x01151D50> ('d',) me mad
>>
>>
>> (and on a side note if i dont include the *args i get an invalid number 
>> of
>> parameters supplied message.)
>> why is it returning the value in this format ('d',) ?
>> i cant get x == d
>> i guess that value 'd' is stored in a tuple and i'd like to get it out of
>> there.
>>
>> so basically the function returns nope as it stands
>>
>> python is sure different from other languages i have used.
>>
>> thanks for any help,
>> jim
>>
>
>
> Try, the following:
>
> class getQryStr:
>    def __init__(self,op):
>        print op
>        self.x = 'd'
>    def returnStr(self, *args):
>
>        print '%s %s me mad' % (self.x,args)
>        if self.x == 'd':
>            s = Template("delete from columndef where tblid = $tblid and
> colname = $colname")
>        else:
>            return 'nope' #this else is just for illustration and
> testing
>
>        d = dict(tblid=t.tblid.getText(), colname=t.colName.getText())
>
>        print s.substitute(d)
>
>        return s
>
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
>
>
> -- 
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
> 




From noway at sorry.com  Thu Jun  1 02:50:37 2006
From: noway at sorry.com (Giovanni Bajo)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 00:50:37 GMT
Subject: struct: type registration?
Message-ID: <xRqfg.20253$cX1.307956@twister2.libero.it>

Hello,

given the ongoing work on struct (which I thought was a dead module), I was
wondering if it would be possible to add an API to register custom parsing
codes for struct. Whenever I use it for non-trivial tasks, I always happen to
write small wrapper functions to adjust the values returned by struct.

An example API would be the following:

============================================
def mystring_len():
    return 20

def mystring_pack(s):
    if len(s) > 20:
        raise ValueError, "a mystring can be at max 20 chars"
    s = (s + "\0"*20)[:20]
    s = struct.pack("20s", s)
    return s

def mystring_unpack(s):
    assert len(s) == 20
    s = struct.unpack("20s", s)[0]
    idx = s.find("\0")
    if idx >= 0:
        s = s[:idx]
    return s

struct.register("S", mystring_pack, mystring_unpack, mystring_len)

# then later
foo = struct.unpack("iilS", data)
============================================

This is only an example, any similar API which might fit better struct
internals would do as well.

As shown, the custom packer/unpacker can call the original pack/unpack as a
basis for their work. I guess an issue with this could be the endianess
problem: it would make sense if, when called recursively, struct.pack/unpack
used by the default the endianess specified by the external format string.
-- 
Giovanni Bajo




From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Thu Jun  1 04:06:15 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:06:15 +1000
Subject: struct: type registration?
In-Reply-To: <xRqfg.20253$cX1.307956@twister2.libero.it>
References: <xRqfg.20253$cX1.307956@twister2.libero.it>
Message-ID: <447e4b98$1@news.eftel.com>

On 1/06/2006 10:50 AM, Giovanni Bajo wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> given the ongoing work on struct (which I thought was a dead module), I was
> wondering if it would be possible to add an API to register custom parsing
> codes for struct. Whenever I use it for non-trivial tasks, I always happen to
> write small wrapper functions to adjust the values returned by struct.
> 
> An example API would be the following:
> 
> ============================================
> def mystring_len():
>     return 20
> 
> def mystring_pack(s):
>     if len(s) > 20:
>         raise ValueError, "a mystring can be at max 20 chars"
>     s = (s + "\0"*20)[:20]

Have you considered s.ljust(20, "\0") ?

>     s = struct.pack("20s", s)
>     return s

I am an idiot, so please be gentle with me: I don't understand why you 
are using struct.pack at all:

|>>> import struct
|>>> x = ("abcde" + "\0" * 20)[:20]
|>>> x
'abcde\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
|>>> len(x)
20
|>>> y = struct.pack("20s", x)
|>>> y == x
True
|>>>

Looks like a big fat no-op to me; you've done all the heavy lifting 
yourself.

> 
> def mystring_unpack(s):
>     assert len(s) == 20
>     s = struct.unpack("20s", s)[0]

Errrm, g'day, it's that pesky idiot again:

|>>> z = struct.unpack("20s", y)[0]
|>>> z
'abcde\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
|>>> z == y == x
True

>     idx = s.find("\0")
>     if idx >= 0:
>         s = s[:idx]
>     return s

Have you considered this:

|>>> z.rstrip("\0")
'abcde'
|>>> ("\0" * 20).rstrip("\0")
''
|>>> ("x" * 20).rstrip("\0")
'xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx'

> 
> struct.register("S", mystring_pack, mystring_unpack, mystring_len)
> 
> # then later
> foo = struct.unpack("iilS", data)
> ============================================
> 
> This is only an example, any similar API which might fit better struct
> internals would do as well.
> 
> As shown, the custom packer/unpacker can call the original pack/unpack as a
> basis for their work. I guess an issue with this could be the endianess
> problem: it would make sense if, when called recursively, struct.pack/unpack
> used by the default the endianess specified by the external format string.


From noway at sorry.com  Thu Jun  1 13:52:56 2006
From: noway at sorry.com (Giovanni Bajo)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:52:56 GMT
Subject: struct: type registration?
References: <xRqfg.20253$cX1.307956@twister2.libero.it>
	<447e4b98$1@news.eftel.com>
Message-ID: <syAfg.20619$cX1.312810@twister2.libero.it>

John Machin wrote:

>> given the ongoing work on struct (which I thought was a dead
>> module), I was wondering if it would be possible to add an API to
>> register custom parsing codes for struct. Whenever I use it for
>> non-trivial tasks, I always happen to write small wrapper functions
>> to adjust the values returned by struct.
>>
>> An example API would be the following:
>>
>> ============================================
>> def mystring_len():
>>     return 20
>>
>> def mystring_pack(s):
>>     if len(s) > 20:
>>         raise ValueError, "a mystring can be at max 20 chars"
>>     s = (s + "\0"*20)[:20]
>
> Have you considered s.ljust(20, "\0") ?

Right. This happened to be an example...

>>     s = struct.pack("20s", s)
>>     return s
>
> I am an idiot, so please be gentle with me: I don't understand why you
> are using struct.pack at all:

Because I want to be able to parse largest chunks of binary datas with custom
formatting. Did you miss the whole point of my message:

struct.unpack("3liiSiiShh", data)

You need struct.unpack() to parse these datas, and you need custom
packer/unpacker to avoid post-processing the output of unpack() just because it
just knows of basic Python types. In binary structs, there happen to be *types*
which do not map 1:1 to Python types, nor they are just basic C types (like the
ones struct supports). Using custom formatter is a way to better represent
these types (instead of mapping them to the "most similar" type, and then
post-process it).

In my example, "S" is a basic-type which is a "A 0-terminated 20-byte string",
and expressing it in the struct format with the single letter "S" is more
meaningful in my code than using "20s" and then post-processing the resulting
string each and every time this happens.


>>>>> import struct
>>>>> x = ("abcde" + "\0" * 20)[:20]
>>>>> x
> 'abcde\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
>>>>> len(x)
> 20
>>>>> y = struct.pack("20s", x)
>>>>> y == x
> True
>>>>>
>
> Looks like a big fat no-op to me; you've done all the heavy lifting
> yourself.

Looks like you totally misread my message. Your string "x" is what I find in
binary data, and I need to *unpack* into a regular Python string, which would
be "abcde".


>
>>     idx = s.find("\0")
>>     if idx >= 0:
>>         s = s[:idx]
>>     return s
>
> Have you considered this:
>
>>>>> z.rstrip("\0")
> 'abcde'


This would not work because, in the actual binary data I have to parse, only
the first \0 is meaningful and terminates the string (like in C). There is
absolutely no guarantees that the rest of the padding is made of \0s as well.
-- 
Giovanni Bajo




From noway at sorry.com  Thu Jun  1 14:35:16 2006
From: noway at sorry.com (Giovanni Bajo)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:35:16 GMT
Subject: struct: type registration?
References: <xRqfg.20253$cX1.307956@twister2.libero.it>
	<447e4b98$1@news.eftel.com>
	<syAfg.20619$cX1.312810@twister2.libero.it>
Message-ID: <8aBfg.20673$cX1.313575@twister2.libero.it>

Giovanni Bajo wrote:

> You need struct.unpack() to parse these datas, and you need custom
> packer/unpacker to avoid post-processing the output of unpack() just
> because it just knows of basic Python types. In binary structs, there
> happen to be *types* which do not map 1:1 to Python types, nor they
> are just basic C types (like the ones struct supports). Using custom
> formatter is a way to better represent these types (instead of
> mapping them to the "most similar" type, and then post-process it).
>
> In my example, "S" is a basic-type which is a "A 0-terminated 20-byte
> string", and expressing it in the struct format with the single
> letter "S" is more meaningful in my code than using "20s" and then
> post-processing the resulting string each and every time this happens.


Another compelling example is the SSH protocol:
http://www.openssh.com/txt/draft-ietf-secsh-architecture-12.txt
Go to section 4, "Data Type Representations Used in the SSH Protocols", and it
describes the data types used by the SSH protocol. In a perfect world, I would
write some custom packers/unpackers for those types which struct does not
handle already (like the "mpint" format), so that I could use struct to parse
and compose SSH messages. What I ended up doing was writing a new module
sshstruct.py from scratch, which duplicates struct's work, just because I
couldn't extend struct. Some examples:

client.py:        cookie, server_algorithms, guess, reserverd =
sshstruct.unpack("16b10LBu", data[1:])
client.py:            prompts = sshstruct.unpack("sssu" + "sB"*num_prompts,
pkt[1:])
connection.py:        pkt = sshstruct.pack("busB", SSH_MSG_CHANNEL_REQUEST,
self.recipient_number, type, reply) + custom
kex.py:        self.P, self.G = sshstruct.unpack("mm",pkt[1:])

Notice for instance how "s" is a SSH string and unpacks directly to a Python
string, and "m" is a SSH mpint (infinite precision integer) but unpacks
directly into a Python long. Using struct.unpack() this would have been
impossible and would have required much post-processing.

Actually, another thing that struct should support to cover the SSH protocol
(and many other binary protocols) is the ability to parse strings whose size is
not known at import-time (variable-length data types). For instance, type
"string" in the SSH protocol is a string prepended with its size as uint32. So
it's actual size depends on each instance. For this reason, my sshstruct did
not have the equivalent of struct.calcsize(). I guess that if there's a way to
extend struct, it would comprehend variable-size data types (and calcsize()
would return -1 or raise an exception).
-- 
Giovanni Bajo




From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Thu Jun  1 14:37:16 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:37:16 +1000
Subject: struct: type registration?
In-Reply-To: <syAfg.20619$cX1.312810@twister2.libero.it>
References: <xRqfg.20253$cX1.307956@twister2.libero.it>
	<447e4b98$1@news.eftel.com>
	<syAfg.20619$cX1.312810@twister2.libero.it>
Message-ID: <447EDF7C.3080104@lexicon.net>

On 1/06/2006 9:52 PM, Giovanni Bajo wrote:
> John Machin wrote:
> 
>>> given the ongoing work on struct (which I thought was a dead
>>> module), I was wondering if it would be possible to add an API to
>>> register custom parsing codes for struct. Whenever I use it for
>>> non-trivial tasks, I always happen to write small wrapper functions
>>> to adjust the values returned by struct.
>>>
>>> An example API would be the following:
>>>
>>> ============================================
>>> def mystring_len():
>>>     return 20
>>>
>>> def mystring_pack(s):
>>>     if len(s) > 20:
>>>         raise ValueError, "a mystring can be at max 20 chars"
>>>     s = (s + "\0"*20)[:20]
>> Have you considered s.ljust(20, "\0") ?
> 
> Right. This happened to be an example...
> 
>>>     s = struct.pack("20s", s)
>>>     return s
>> I am an idiot, so please be gentle with me: I don't understand why you
>> are using struct.pack at all:

Given a choice between whether I was referring to the particular 
instance of using struct.pack two lines above, or whether I was doubting 
the general utility of the struct module, you appear to have chosen the 
latter, erroneously.

> 
> Because I want to be able to parse largest chunks of binary datas with custom
> formatting. Did you miss the whole point of my message:

No.

> 
> struct.unpack("3liiSiiShh", data)
> 
> You need struct.unpack() to parse these datas, and you need custom
> packer/unpacker to avoid post-processing the output of unpack() just because it
> just knows of basic Python types. In binary structs, there happen to be *types*
> which do not map 1:1 to Python types, nor they are just basic C types (like the
> ones struct supports). Using custom formatter is a way to better represent
> these types (instead of mapping them to the "most similar" type, and then
> post-process it).
> 
> In my example, "S" is a basic-type which is a "A 0-terminated 20-byte string",
> and expressing it in the struct format with the single letter "S" is more
> meaningful in my code than using "20s" and then post-processing the resulting
> string each and every time this happens.
> 
> 
>>>>>> import struct
>>>>>> x = ("abcde" + "\0" * 20)[:20]
>>>>>> x
>> 'abcde\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
>>>>>> len(x)
>> 20
>>>>>> y = struct.pack("20s", x)
>>>>>> y == x
>> True
>> Looks like a big fat no-op to me; you've done all the heavy lifting
>> yourself.
> 
> Looks like you totally misread my message.

Not at all.

Your function:

def mystring_pack(s):
     if len(s) > 20:
         raise ValueError, "a mystring can be at max 20 chars"
     s = (s + "\0"*20)[:20]
     s = struct.pack("20s", s)
     return s

can be even better replaced by (after reading the manual "For packing, 
the string is truncated or padded with null bytes as appropriate to make 
it fit.") by:

def mystring_pack(s):
     if len(s) > 20:
         raise ValueError, "a mystring can be at max 20 chars"
     return s
     # return s = (s + "\0"*20)[:20] # not needed, according to the manual
     # s = struct.pack("20s", s)
     # As I said, this particular instance of using struct.pack is a big 
fat no-op.

> Your string "x" is what I find in
> binary data, and I need to *unpack* into a regular Python string, which would
> be "abcde".
>

And you unpack it with a custom function that also contains a fat no-op:

def mystring_unpack(s):
     assert len(s) == 20
     s = struct.unpack("20s", s)[0] # does nothing
     idx = s.find("\0")
     if idx >= 0:
         s = s[:idx]
     return s

> 
>>>     idx = s.find("\0")
>>>     if idx >= 0:
>>>         s = s[:idx]
>>>     return s
>> Have you considered this:
>>
>>>>>> z.rstrip("\0")
>> 'abcde'
> 
> 
> This would not work because, in the actual binary data I have to parse, only
> the first \0 is meaningful and terminates the string (like in C). There is
> absolutely no guarantees that the rest of the padding is made of \0s as well.

Point taken.

Cheers,
John




From raNOsky at deveSPAMler.com  Thu Jun  1 19:44:40 2006
From: raNOsky at deveSPAMler.com (Giovanni Bajo)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 19:44:40 +0200
Subject: struct: type registration?
References: <xRqfg.20253$cX1.307956@twister2.libero.it>
	<447e4b98$1@news.eftel.com>
	<syAfg.20619$cX1.312810@twister2.libero.it>
	<447EDF7C.3080104@lexicon.net>
Message-ID: <e5n92c$s35$1@nnrp.ngi.it>

John Machin wrote:

>> Looks like you totally misread my message.
>
> Not at all.
>
> Your function:
>
> def mystring_pack(s):
>      if len(s) > 20:
>          raise ValueError, "a mystring can be at max 20 chars"
>      s = (s + "\0"*20)[:20]
>      s = struct.pack("20s", s)
>      return s
>
> can be even better replaced by (after reading the manual "For packing,
> the string is truncated or padded with null bytes as appropriate to
> make it fit.") by:
>
> def mystring_pack(s):
>      if len(s) > 20:
>          raise ValueError, "a mystring can be at max 20 chars"
>      return s
>      # return s = (s + "\0"*20)[:20] # not needed, according to the
>      manual # s = struct.pack("20s", s)
>      # As I said, this particular instance of using struct.pack is a
> big fat no-op.

John, the point of the example was to show that one could write custom
packer/unpacker which calls struct.pack/unpack and, after that,
post-processes the results to obtain some custom data type. Now, I apologize
if my example wasn't exactly the shortest, most compact, most pythonic piece
of code. It was not meant to be. It was meant to be very easy to read and
very clear in what it is being done. You are nitpicking that part of my code
is a no-op. Fine. Sorry if this confused you. I was just trying to show a
simple pattern:

custom packer: adjust data, call struct.pack(), return
custom unpacker: call struct.unpack(), adjust data, return

I should have chosen a most complex example probably, but I did not want to
confuse readers. It seems I have confused them by choosing too simple an
example.
-- 
Giovanni Bajo




From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Thu Jun  1 23:48:29 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:48:29 +1000
Subject: struct: type registration?
In-Reply-To: <e5n92c$s35$1@nnrp.ngi.it>
References: <xRqfg.20253$cX1.307956@twister2.libero.it>
	<447e4b98$1@news.eftel.com>
	<syAfg.20619$cX1.312810@twister2.libero.it>
	<447EDF7C.3080104@lexicon.net> <e5n92c$s35$1@nnrp.ngi.it>
Message-ID: <447F60AD.9020506@lexicon.net>

On 2/06/2006 3:44 AM, Giovanni Bajo wrote:
> John Machin wrote:
> 
>>> Looks like you totally misread my message.
>> Not at all.
>>
>> Your function:
>>
>> def mystring_pack(s):
>>      if len(s) > 20:
>>          raise ValueError, "a mystring can be at max 20 chars"
>>      s = (s + "\0"*20)[:20]
>>      s = struct.pack("20s", s)
>>      return s
>>
>> can be even better replaced by (after reading the manual "For packing,
>> the string is truncated or padded with null bytes as appropriate to
>> make it fit.") by:
>>
>> def mystring_pack(s):
>>      if len(s) > 20:
>>          raise ValueError, "a mystring can be at max 20 chars"
>>      return s
>>      # return s = (s + "\0"*20)[:20] # not needed, according to the
>>      manual # s = struct.pack("20s", s)
>>      # As I said, this particular instance of using struct.pack is a
>> big fat no-op.
> 
> John, the point of the example was to show that one could write custom
> packer/unpacker which calls struct.pack/unpack and, after that,
> post-processes the results to obtain some custom data type.

What you appear to be doing is proposing an API for extending struct by 
registering custom type-codes (ASCII alphabetic?) each requiring three 
call-back functions (mypacker, myunpacker, mylength).

Example registration for an "S" string (fixed storage length, true 
length determined on unpacking by first occurrence of '\0' (if any)).

     struct.register("S", packerS, unpackerS, lengthS)

You give no prescription for what those functions should do. You provide 
"examples" which require reverse engineering to deduce of what they are 
intended to be exemplars.

Simple-minded folk like myself might expect that the functions would 
work something like this:

Packing: when struct.pack reaches the custom code in the format, it does 
this (pseudocode):
     obj = _get_next_arg()
     itemstrg = mypacker(obj)
     _append_to_output_string(itemstrg)

Unpacking: when struct.unpack reaches a custom code in the format, it 
does this (pseudocode):
     n = mylength()
     # exception if < n bytes remain
     obj = myunpacker(remaining_bytes[:n])
     _append_to_output_tuple(obj)

Thus, in a simple case like the NUL-terminated string:

def lengthS():
     return 20
def packerS(s):
     assert len(s) <= 20
     return s.ljust(20, '\0')
     # alternatively, return struct.pack("20s", s)
def unpackerS(bytes):
     assert len(bytes) == 20
     i = bytes.find('\0')
     if i >= 0:
         return bytes[:i]
     return bytes

In more complicated cases, it may be useful for either/both the 
packer/unpacker custom functions to call struct.pack/unpack to assist in 
the assembly/disassembly exercise. This should be (1) possible without 
perturbing the state of the outer struct.pack/unpack invocation (2) 
sufficiently obvious to warrant little more than a passing mention.

> Now, I apologize
> if my example wasn't exactly the shortest, most compact, most pythonic piece
> of code. It was not meant to be. It was meant to be very easy to read and
> very clear in what it is being done. You are nitpicking that part of my code
> is a no-op. Fine.

Scarcely a nitpick. It was very clear that parts of it were doing 
absolutely nothing in a rather byzantine & baroque fashion. What was 
unclear was whether this was by accident or design. You say (*after* the 
examples) that "As shown, the custom packer/unpacker can call the 
original pack/unpack as a basis for their work. ... when called 
recursively ...". What basis for what work? As for recursion, I see no 
"19s", "18s", etc here :-)


> Sorry if this confused you.

It didn't. As a self-confessed idiot, I am resolutely and irredeemably 
unconfused.

> I was just trying to show a
> simple pattern:
> 
> custom packer: adjust data, call struct.pack(), return
> custom unpacker: call struct.unpack(), adjust data, return
> 
> I should have chosen a most complex example probably, but I did not want to
> confuse readers. It seems I have confused them by choosing too simple an
> example.

The problem was that you chose an example that had minimal justification 
(i.e. only the length check) for a custom packer at all (struct.pack 
pads the "s" format with NUL bytes) and no use at all for a call to 
struct.unpack inside the custom unpacker.

Cheers,
John


From Serge.Orlov at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 20:18:46 2006
From: Serge.Orlov at gmail.com (Serge Orlov)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 11:18:46 -0700
Subject: struct: type registration?
In-Reply-To: <syAfg.20619$cX1.312810@twister2.libero.it>
References: <xRqfg.20253$cX1.307956@twister2.libero.it>
	<447e4b98$1@news.eftel.com>
	<syAfg.20619$cX1.312810@twister2.libero.it>
Message-ID: <1149185926.636174.48970@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Giovanni Bajo wrote:
> John Machin wrote:
> > I am an idiot, so please be gentle with me: I don't understand why you
> > are using struct.pack at all:
>
> Because I want to be able to parse largest chunks of binary datas with custom
> formatting. Did you miss the whole point of my message:
>
> struct.unpack("3liiSiiShh", data)

Did you want to write struct.unpack("Sheesh", data) ? Seriously, the
main problem of struct is that it uses ad-hoc abbreviations for
relatively rarely[1] used functions calls and that makes it hard to
read.

If you want to parse binary data use pyconstruct
<http://pyconstruct.wikispaces.com/>

[1] Relatively to regular expression and string formatting calls.



From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Fri Jun  2 00:51:16 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:51:16 +1000
Subject: struct: type registration?
In-Reply-To: <1149185926.636174.48970@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <xRqfg.20253$cX1.307956@twister2.libero.it>
	<447e4b98$1@news.eftel.com>
	<syAfg.20619$cX1.312810@twister2.libero.it>
	<1149185926.636174.48970@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447F6F64.400@lexicon.net>

On 2/06/2006 4:18 AM, Serge Orlov wrote:
> Giovanni Bajo wrote:
>> John Machin wrote:
>>> I am an idiot, so please be gentle with me: I don't understand why you
>>> are using struct.pack at all:
>> Because I want to be able to parse largest chunks of binary datas with custom
>> formatting. Did you miss the whole point of my message:
>>
>> struct.unpack("3liiSiiShh", data)
> 
> Did you want to write struct.unpack("Sheesh", data) ? Seriously, the
> main problem of struct is that it uses ad-hoc abbreviations for
> relatively rarely[1] used functions calls and that makes it hard to
> read.

Indeed. The first time I saw something like struct.pack('20H', ...) I 
thought it was a FORTRAN format statement :-)

> 
> If you want to parse binary data use pyconstruct
> <http://pyconstruct.wikispaces.com/>
> 

Looks promising on the legibility and functionality fronts. Can you make 
any comment on the speed? Reason for asking is that Microsoft Excel 
files have this weird "RK" format for expressing common float values in 
32 bits (refer http://sc.openoffice.org, see under "Documentation" 
heading). I wrote and support the xlrd module (see 
http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/xlrd) for reading those files in 
portable pure Python. Below is a function that would plug straight in as 
an example of Giovanni's custom unpacker functions. Some of the files 
can be very large, and reading rather slow.

Cheers,
John

from struct import unpack

def unpack_RK(rk_str): # arg is 4 bytes
     flags = ord(rk_str[0])
     if flags & 2:
         # There's a SIGNED 30-bit integer in there!
         i, = unpack('<i', rk_str)
         i >>= 2 # div by 4 to drop the 2 flag bits
         if flags & 1:
             return i / 100.0
         return float(i)
     else:
         # It's the most significant 30 bits
         # of an IEEE 754 64-bit FP number
         d, = unpack('<d', '\0\0\0\0' + chr(flags & 252) + rk_str[1:4])
         if flags & 1:
             return d / 100.0
         return d


From Serge.Orlov at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 09:44:30 2006
From: Serge.Orlov at gmail.com (Serge Orlov)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 00:44:30 -0700
Subject: struct: type registration?
References: <xRqfg.20253$cX1.307956@twister2.libero.it>
	<447e4b98$1@news.eftel.com>
	<syAfg.20619$cX1.312810@twister2.libero.it>
	<1149185926.636174.48970@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<447F6F64.400@lexicon.net>
Message-ID: <1149234270.300072.316880@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

John Machin wrote:
> On 2/06/2006 4:18 AM, Serge Orlov wrote:
> > If you want to parse binary data use pyconstruct
> > <http://pyconstruct.wikispaces.com/>
> >
>
> Looks promising on the legibility and functionality fronts. Can you make
> any comment on the speed?

I don't know really. I used it for small data parsing, its performance
was acceptable. As I understand it is implemented right now as pure
python code using struct under the hood. The biggest concern is the
lack of comprehensive documentation, if that scares you, it's not for
you.

> Reason for asking is that Microsoft Excel
> files have this weird "RK" format for expressing common float values in
> 32 bits (refer http://sc.openoffice.org, see under "Documentation"
> heading). I wrote and support the xlrd module (see
> http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/xlrd) for reading those files in
> portable pure Python. Below is a function that would plug straight in as
> an example of Giovanni's custom unpacker functions. Some of the files
> can be very large, and reading rather slow.

I *guess* that the *current* implementation of pyconstruct will make
parsing slightly slower. But you have to try to find out.

> from struct import unpack
>
> def unpack_RK(rk_str): # arg is 4 bytes
>      flags = ord(rk_str[0])
>      if flags & 2:
>          # There's a SIGNED 30-bit integer in there!
>          i, = unpack('<i', rk_str)
>          i >>= 2 # div by 4 to drop the 2 flag bits
>          if flags & 1:
>              return i / 100.0
>          return float(i)
>      else:
>          # It's the most significant 30 bits
>          # of an IEEE 754 64-bit FP number
>          d, = unpack('<d', '\0\0\0\0' + chr(flags & 252) + rk_str[1:4])
>          if flags & 1:
>              return d / 100.0
>          return d

I had to lookup what < means :) Since nobody except this function cares
about internals of RK number, you don't need to use pyconstruct to
parse at bit level. The code will be almost like you wrote except you
replace unpack('<d', with Construct.LittleFloat64("").parse( and plug
the unpack_RK into pyconstruct framework by deriving from Field class.
Sure, nobody is going to raise your paycheck because of this rewrite :)
The biggest benefit comes from parsing the whole data file with
pyconstruct, not individual fields.



From yairchu at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 12:35:49 2006
From: yairchu at gmail.com (yairchu at gmail.com)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 03:35:49 -0700
Subject: struct: type registration?
In-Reply-To: <xRqfg.20253$cX1.307956@twister2.libero.it>
References: <xRqfg.20253$cX1.307956@twister2.libero.it>
Message-ID: <1149244549.497806.211280@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

using struct for the stuff you're up to and you'll finish with weird
unmaintainable code.
save yourself a lot of pain and use construct instead.

http://pyconstruct.wikispaces.com/



From DustanGroups at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 03:12:51 2006
From: DustanGroups at gmail.com (Dustan)
Date: 31 May 2006 18:12:51 -0700
Subject: Downloading and Displaying an Image from the Internet in Tkinter
Message-ID: <1149124371.337732.3650@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

The title pretty much says it all. What is the easiest way in Tkinter
to display an image from the internet given the URL?



From nkammah at yahoo.fr  Thu Jun  1 05:08:30 2006
From: nkammah at yahoo.fr (kepioo)
Date: 31 May 2006 20:08:30 -0700
Subject: How to access the content of notepad with Python?
Message-ID: <1149131310.763870.29250@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Hi,

I have a software running on my computer that really looks like notepad
( same interface, different name). I need to write a script that will
capture the content of this software --> the text written inside.

Is it possible using win32 libs? any clue?

Thanks!



From Bulkan at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 05:47:32 2006
From: Bulkan at gmail.com (placid)
Date: 31 May 2006 20:47:32 -0700
Subject: How to access the content of notepad with Python?
In-Reply-To: <1149131310.763870.29250@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149131310.763870.29250@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149133652.024007.220150@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


kepioo wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have a software running on my computer that really looks like notepad
> ( same interface, different name). I need to write a script that will
> capture the content of this software --> the text written inside.
>

Dont know about win32, but if you want an easy solution then save the
text you want to capture and then read it via Python!



From webraviteja at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 07:00:08 2006
From: webraviteja at gmail.com (Ravi Teja)
Date: 31 May 2006 22:00:08 -0700
Subject: How to access the content of notepad with Python?
In-Reply-To: <1149131310.763870.29250@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149131310.763870.29250@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149138007.952375.22560@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>

> I have a software running on my computer that really looks like notepad
> ( same interface, different name). I need to write a script that will
> capture the content of this software --> the text written inside.
>
> Is it possible using win32 libs? any clue?

http://www.openqa.org/pywinauto/
The example on their home page is in fact how to automate Notepad. I am
sure you can work from there.



From Bulkan at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 05:52:49 2006
From: Bulkan at gmail.com (placid)
Date: 31 May 2006 20:52:49 -0700
Subject: Is device Connected Windows?
Message-ID: <1149133969.191368.224660@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Hi all,

Just wondering is there a way (not brute force) to check if a usb
storage device is connected?

The brute force method im talking about is doing a os.path.isdir()  or
os.path.isdir() on all the drive letters from A-Z, because you know
that this usb device contains a folder called A or file called foo.txt.


Thanks in Advance



From tim.golden at viacom-outdoor.co.uk  Thu Jun  1 10:23:06 2006
From: tim.golden at viacom-outdoor.co.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:23:06 +0100
Subject: Is device Connected Windows?
Message-ID: <CCAC78D42E32184F8E26DC163DB9830617E206@vogbs009.gb.vo.local>

[placid]

| Just wondering is there a way (not brute force) to check if a usb
| storage device is connected?

Hmmm. How do you identify "a usb storage device" to know that
it is or isn't connected?

You can certainly do something useful with wmi. eg,

<code>
import wmi

c = wmi.WMI ()
for usb_disk in c.Win32_DiskDrive (InterfaceType="USB"):
  print usb_disk.Caption
  print usb_disk.PNPDeviceID

</code>

Now, assuming that the PNPDeviceID is unique enough for
your purpose, you could probably do something with it
to keep hold of it and then check later whether the
same device is still inserted. One possibility is
to use a WMI watcher to spot when devices are removed:

<code>
import wmi

c = wmi.WMI ()
usb_watcher = c.watch_for (
  notification_type="Deletion",
  wmi_class="Win32_DiskDrive",
  delay_secs=2,
  InterfaceType="USB"
)

while True:
  usb_removed = usb_watcher () # can optionally timeout
  print usb_removed.PNPDeviceID

</code>

Lots of other possibilities, a polling loop, two
watchers, one for creation one for deletion etc.
Depends exactly what your requirements are.

TJG

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From Bulkan at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 08:52:40 2006
From: Bulkan at gmail.com (placid)
Date: 4 Jun 2006 23:52:40 -0700
Subject: Is device Connected Windows?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6394.1149150172.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6394.1149150172.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149490360.147668.265590@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>


Tim Golden wrote:
> [placid]
>
> | Just wondering is there a way (not brute force) to check if a usb
> | storage device is connected?
>
> Hmmm. How do you identify "a usb storage device" to know that
> it is or isn't connected?
>
> You can certainly do something useful with wmi. eg,
>
> <code>
> import wmi
>
> c = wmi.WMI ()
> for usb_disk in c.Win32_DiskDrive (InterfaceType="USB"):
>   print usb_disk.Caption
>   print usb_disk.PNPDeviceID
>
> </code>
>
> Now, assuming that the PNPDeviceID is unique enough for
> your purpose, you could probably do something with it
> to keep hold of it and then check later whether the
> same device is still inserted. One possibility is
> to use a WMI watcher to spot when devices are removed:
>
> <code>
> import wmi
>
> c = wmi.WMI ()
> usb_watcher = c.watch_for (
>   notification_type="Deletion",
>   wmi_class="Win32_DiskDrive",
>   delay_secs=2,
>   InterfaceType="USB"
> )
>
> while True:
>   usb_removed = usb_watcher () # can optionally timeout
>   print usb_removed.PNPDeviceID
>
> </code>
>

Thanks mate, this is what i was after, i can work my way through here.



From kapil.sundrani at wipro.com  Thu Jun  1 09:08:25 2006
From: kapil.sundrani at wipro.com (kapil.sundrani at wipro.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:38:25 +0530
Subject: problem with file upload...
Message-ID: <865660148009AD47BBBFD82BFED3A92601E785A1@BLR-EC-MBX04.wipro.com>


I have a problem in uploading a file.




The input tag looks like <input type=file name=filename id=filename> and
the form tag looks like.

<form method="post" enctype="multipart/form-data"
action="/cgi-bin/portal/buildmgr.py">




But still after form submission I don't get the file data. Debugging
shows that the input field is being taken as a MinifieldStorage instead
of FieldStorage.




Thanks in advance for any help :-)




Regards,

Kapil







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From laura at voipro.nl  Thu Jun  1 09:08:32 2006
From: laura at voipro.nl (Laura van Tuin)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:32 +0200
Subject: Python Programmerwanted
Message-ID: <B153C36D-7CC9-435E-9201-EF83BB80B317@voipro.nl>

Python programmer wanted

Our fast-growing team of software developers is currently looking for  
a (junior) Python programmer to assist in the development of our core  
technology.
To extend the core team we're looking for a talented individual with  
specifically:

thorough knowledge of Linux and Python
experience with Zope and Plone is recommended
knowledge of VoIP including open standards such as SIP
at least HBO/academic education
fluent in English, preferably also in Dutch
Working at Voipro is about team work and sharing in the success of  
the company. Our compensation is highly competitive and our  
organization has room for entrepreneurial professionals with  
experience in the telecommunication and technology markets.

Professionalism, relationship management, and creativity are our core  
values and inherent strengths in our team.

Voipro extends its founders tradition of delivering technological  
solutions in the technology and telecommunication markets  
successfully. Our fast growing team is motivated to deliver success  
to its investors, customers, and partners.

If you are interested please contact Voipro Nederland BV - Laura van  
Tuin

+31 20 7884000 / laura at voipro.nl


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From pemboa at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 09:36:06 2006
From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 02:36:06 -0500
Subject: Best way to do data source abstraction
Message-ID: <16de708d0606010036j65d64096m5a4dcb0c04c5656a@mail.gmail.com>

What is the best way to do data source abtraction? For example have
different classes with the same interface, but different
implementations.

I was thinking of almost having classA as my main class, and have
classA dynamically "absorb" classFood into to based on the extension
of the input file received by classA. But this doesn't seem possible.

Please advise.

Thank you.

-- 
To be updated...


From sybrenUSE at YOURthirdtower.com.imagination  Thu Jun  1 10:02:34 2006
From: sybrenUSE at YOURthirdtower.com.imagination (Sybren Stuvel)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:02:34 +0200
Subject: Best way to do data source abstraction
References: <mailman.6391.1149147790.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrne7t7oq.dj7.sybrenUSE@schuimige.stuvel.eu>

Arthur Pemberton enlightened us with:
> What is the best way to do data source abtraction?

That depends on your data source. For files, file-like objects are an
abstraction. For databases there is PEP 249.

> I was thinking of almost having classA as my main class, and have
> classA dynamically "absorb" classFood into to based on the extension
> of the input file received by classA. But this doesn't seem
> possible.

You don't explain the most important part - "absorb". What does that
mean? And what does it mean to have classA "almost" as your main
class?

Sybren
-- 
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? 
                                             Frank Zappa


From onurb at xiludom.gro  Thu Jun  1 11:20:22 2006
From: onurb at xiludom.gro (bruno at modulix)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:22 +0200
Subject: Best way to do data source abstraction
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6391.1149147790.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6391.1149147790.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <447eb1ca$0$27292$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> What is the best way to do data source abtraction? For example have
> different classes with the same interface, but different
> implementations.
> 
> I was thinking of almost having classA as my main class, and have
> classA dynamically "absorb" classFood into to based on the extension
> of the input file received by classA. But this doesn't seem possible.

Could you explain more accurately what you're trying to do ? FWIW, it
seems that a plain old factory function would do ?

class DatasourceAbstraction(object):
  """ base class, factoring common stuff """
  # implementation here

class JpegFile(DatasourceAbstraction):
  # ....


class PdfFile(DatasourceAbstraction):
  # ....

class TxtFile(DatasourceAbstraction):
  # ....

# etc
_classes = {
  'jpg' : JpegFile,
  'txt' : TxtFile,
  'pdf' : PdfFile,
  # etc..
}

def Datasource(inputfile):
  ext = os.path.splitext(inputfile)
  return _classes.get(ext, <SomeDefaultClassHere>)(inputfile)

The fact that there's no 'new' keyword in Python, and that classes are
callable objects acting as factories means that it's a no-brainer to use
a plain function (eventually disguised as a Class - the client code just
doesn't care !-) as factory...

Now if I missed the point, please give more explanations...

-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb at xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"


From larry.bates at websafe.com  Thu Jun  1 16:03:46 2006
From: larry.bates at websafe.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 09:03:46 -0500
Subject: Best way to do data source abstraction
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6391.1149147790.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6391.1149147790.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <447EF3C2.9060804@websafe.com>

Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> What is the best way to do data source abtraction? For example have
> different classes with the same interface, but different
> implementations.
> 
> I was thinking of almost having classA as my main class, and have
> classA dynamically "absorb" classFood into to based on the extension
> of the input file received by classA. But this doesn't seem possible.
> 
> Please advise.
> 
> Thank you.
> 

The best method I've found is to have a class that abstracts
the data and presents the values from the data source via
class attributes.  If you also implement it as an iterator
(e.g. give it __iter__ and __next__ methods), you can easily
iterate over the resultset from each data source.  With this
method I've abstracted data in CSV files, fixed ASCII files,
SQL tables, Excel Spreadsheets, tab delimited files that are
members of a .ZIP archive, you name it.

Short example (not tested):
class foo:
    '''
    Class to abstract tab delimited files
    '''
    def __init__(self, filepath, columnnames):
        self.fp=open(filepath, 'r')
        self.columnnames=columnnames
        return

    def __iter__(self):
        return self

    def next(self):
        #
        # Try to get the next line from file
        #
        try: line=self.fp.next()
        except StopIteration:
            self.fp.close()
            raise

        #
        # Decode the tab delimited line into its parts
        #
        line=line.rstrip()
        if not line: raise StopIteration
        values=line.split('\t')
        print "values=", values
        l=zip(self.columnnames, values)
        print l
        for column, value in l:
            setattr(self, column, value)

        return

if __name__ == "__main__":
    obj=foo('abc.txt', ['name', 'address1', 'address2', 'city', 'state', 'zip'])

    for entry in obj:
        print ""
        print "Name........", obj.name
        print "Address1....", obj.address1
        print "Address2....", obj.address2
        print "City........", obj.city
        print "State.......", obj.state
        print "Zip.........", obj.zip


-Larry Bates



From ray_usenet at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  1 10:28:37 2006
From: ray_usenet at yahoo.com (Ray)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 01:28:37 -0700
Subject: How do you practice Python?
Message-ID: <1149150517.034409.292530@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

In our field, we don't always get to program in the language we'd like
to program. So... how do you practice Python in this case? Say you're
doing J2EE right now. How do you practice Python to keep your skills
sharp?

I liked Python Challenge, but there were too many PIL there, something
that I doubt I'll ever use, so there must be a better way.

Thanks
Ray



From onurb at xiludom.gro  Thu Jun  1 10:50:53 2006
From: onurb at xiludom.gro (bruno at modulix)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:50:53 +0200
Subject: How do you practice Python?
In-Reply-To: <1149150517.034409.292530@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149150517.034409.292530@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447eaae0$0$20867$636a55ce@news.free.fr>

Ray wrote:
> In our field, we don't always get to program in the language we'd like
> to program. So... how do you practice Python in this case? Say you're
> doing J2EE right now.

Hopefully not !

> How do you practice Python to keep your skills
> sharp?

How *would* I do ? Well, perhaps I'd use Jython ?


-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb at xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"


From ray_usenet at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  1 10:56:54 2006
From: ray_usenet at yahoo.com (Ray)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 01:56:54 -0700
Subject: How do you practice Python?
In-Reply-To: <447eaae0$0$20867$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
References: <1149150517.034409.292530@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<447eaae0$0$20867$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <1149152214.215907.31800@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

bruno at modulix wrote:
> > In our field, we don't always get to program in the language we'd like
> > to program. So... how do you practice Python in this case? Say you're
> > doing J2EE right now.
>
> Hopefully not !

I am :-(

> > How do you practice Python to keep your skills
> > sharp?
>
> How *would* I do ? Well, perhaps I'd use Jython ?

Um, I mean, what if you have to use something other than
Python/Jython/IronPython? :) How do you keep your Python skill sharp?

> --
> bruno desthuilliers
> python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
> p in 'onurb at xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"



From harry.g.george at boeing.com  Thu Jun  1 07:00:28 2006
From: harry.g.george at boeing.com (Harry George)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:00:28 GMT
Subject: How do you practice Python?
References: <1149150517.034409.292530@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<447eaae0$0$20867$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
	<1149152214.215907.31800@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <xqxfyipqxlf.fsf@cola3.ca.boeing.com>

"Ray" <ray_usenet at yahoo.com> writes:

> bruno at modulix wrote:
> > > In our field, we don't always get to program in the language we'd like
> > > to program. So... how do you practice Python in this case? Say you're
> > > doing J2EE right now.
> >
> > Hopefully not !
> 
> I am :-(
> 
> > > How do you practice Python to keep your skills
> > > sharp?
> >
> > How *would* I do ? Well, perhaps I'd use Jython ?
> 
> Um, I mean, what if you have to use something other than
> Python/Jython/IronPython? :) How do you keep your Python skill sharp?
> 
> > --
> > bruno desthuilliers
> > python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
> > p in 'onurb at xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"
> 

Do projects at home.  Either find an existing OSS project, or roll
your own.  Once you have the basics of the language, the skills are
domain-specific: XML, GUIs, CAD, gaming, multithreading, numerical
analysis, natural language progromming, etc.

If you do an existing project, then you benefit from peer reviews and
other informal learning opportunities.

-- 
Harry George
PLM Engineering Architecture


From onurb at xiludom.gro  Thu Jun  1 13:49:18 2006
From: onurb at xiludom.gro (bruno at modulix)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:49:18 +0200
Subject: How do you practice Python?
In-Reply-To: <1149152214.215907.31800@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149150517.034409.292530@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<447eaae0$0$20867$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
	<1149152214.215907.31800@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447ed4b1$0$20866$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

Ray wrote:
> bruno at modulix wrote:
> 
>>>In our field, we don't always get to program in the language we'd like
>>>to program. So... how do you practice Python in this case? Say you're
>>>doing J2EE right now.
>>
>>Hopefully not !
> 
> 
> I am :-(
> 

Can we do something to help you out of this bad situation ?

(sorry...)

>>>How do you practice Python to keep your skills
>>>sharp?
>>
>>How *would* I do ? Well, perhaps I'd use Jython ?
> 
> 
> Um, I mean, what if you have to use something other than
> Python/Jython/IronPython? :) 

Ruby or Smalltalk, then ? No ? J2EE ? Argh ! (me run away)

> How do you keep your Python skill sharp?

Just by thinking about how I would solve the problem at hand in Python -
and then cry :(

-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb at xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"


From norbert at akumakun.de  Fri Jun  2 10:53:51 2006
From: norbert at akumakun.de (Norbert Kaufmann)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 10:53:51 +0200
Subject: How do you practice Python?
In-Reply-To: <1149152214.215907.31800@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149150517.034409.292530@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<447eaae0$0$20867$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
	<1149152214.215907.31800@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5ou6k$ded$1@online.de>

Ray wrote:
[...]
> Um, I mean, what if you have to use something other than
> Python/Jython/IronPython? :) How do you keep your Python skill sharp?
> 

You could use IPython as your primary shell. Than you have the
opportunity to do all these nasty automation tasks -- create test data,
deploy configuration files, search in logfiles for errors, etc. -- for
your project in Python.

Convince your project manager to develop prototypes. No one in your
company is better and faster in prototyping than the Python expert Ray.

HTH

Norbert

-- 
It is easier to get forgiveness than permission.


From doug.bromley at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 11:38:41 2006
From: doug.bromley at gmail.com (Doug Bromley)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:38:41 +0100
Subject: How do you practice Python?
In-Reply-To: <e5ou6k$ded$1@online.de>
References: <1149150517.034409.292530@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<447eaae0$0$20867$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
	<1149152214.215907.31800@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<e5ou6k$ded$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <288425520606020238k7f901df5ke5b1a2aba020e654@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/2/06, Norbert Kaufmann <norbert at akumakun.de> wrote:
>
> Ray wrote:
> [...]
> > Um, I mean, what if you have to use something other than
> > Python/Jython/IronPython? :) How do you keep your Python skill sharp?
> >
>
> You could use IPython as your primary shell. Than you have the
> opportunity to do all these nasty automation tasks -- create test data,
> deploy configuration files, search in logfiles for errors, etc. -- for
> your project in Python.
>
> Convince your project manager to develop prototypes. No one in your
> company is better and faster in prototyping than the Python expert Ray.
>
> HTH
>
> Norbert
>
> --
> It is easier to get forgiveness than permission.
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



I've got a couple of posts at my blog that could help you here because I've
often had your problem with new languages.
http://straw-dogs.co.uk/blog/01/26/practice-makes-perfect/  <-- A list of
resources such as quizes, practice, games, tests and info.
http://straw-dogs.co.uk/blog/05/31/scripting-an-easy-life/  <-- Just some
ideas for automating tasks on your system(s).

All the best.

Doug
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From spiralx at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 18:11:52 2006
From: spiralx at gmail.com (James)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 17:11:52 +0100
Subject: How do you practice Python?
In-Reply-To: <e5ou6k$ded$1@online.de>
References: <1149150517.034409.292530@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<447eaae0$0$20867$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
	<1149152214.215907.31800@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<e5ou6k$ded$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <7ee3dcd80606030911u71705a7bif44025cec773dbcc@mail.gmail.com>

Any code which requires serious algorithmic work I write and test in
Python before converting into Java - it's so much easier to use
Python's datatypes and interpreter to get things right before having
to deal with Java's clunky class libraries.

James

On 02/06/06, Norbert Kaufmann <norbert at akumakun.de> wrote:
> Convince your project manager to develop prototypes. No one in your
> company is better and faster in prototyping than the Python expert Ray.
>
> HTH
>
> Norbert


From antroy at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 17:07:33 2006
From: antroy at gmail.com (Ant)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 08:07:33 -0700
Subject: How do you practice Python?
In-Reply-To: <1149150517.034409.292530@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149150517.034409.292530@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149260853.743979.32270@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

> In our field, we don't always get to program in the language we'd like

For sure!

> to program. So... how do you practice Python in this case? Say you're
> doing J2EE right now. How do you practice Python to keep your skills
> sharp?

Well, we have to use J2EE at work. I keep my Python skills going by
playing the puzzles like the PythonChallenge you mentioned and the
Maths Challenge Euler project
(http://mathschallenge.net/index.php?section=project)

They are good for getting the Python idioms and shortcuts nailed, such
as list comprehensions, generators etc that aren't available in Java.

I also use Python almost exclusively at home for my website, Wiki,
Photo gallery etc - all of which I hand rolled partly for the
experience, and partly to get them exactly the way I want them :-)

At work I use Python for all my scripting needs. I also use it to
automate running through our web-applications for test purposes, using
a framework I wrote around the urllib2 module.

So, there are plenty of opportunities to use it if you keep your eyes
open.

Unfortunately for me, using Python so much has made using J2EE very
painful. Not so good seeing as it's my day job!



From sjdevnull at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  2 20:12:00 2006
From: sjdevnull at yahoo.com (sjdevnull at yahoo.com)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 11:12:00 -0700
Subject: How do you practice Python?
In-Reply-To: <1149150517.034409.292530@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149150517.034409.292530@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149271920.917381.112910@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>

Ray wrote:
> In our field, we don't always get to program in the language we'd like
> to program. So... how do you practice Python in this case?

Write code.  Lots of it.  Work on a project at home, contribute to
something open source, use it to write support scripts at work,
whatever.  Figure out a way to write code.



From jzgoda at o2.usun.pl  Fri Jun  2 21:53:27 2006
From: jzgoda at o2.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:53:27 +0200
Subject: How do you practice Python?
In-Reply-To: <1149271920.917381.112910@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149150517.034409.292530@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<1149271920.917381.112910@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5q50j$eu$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>

sjdevnull at yahoo.com napisa?(a):

>>In our field, we don't always get to program in the language we'd like
>>to program. So... how do you practice Python in this case?
> 
> Write code.  Lots of it.  Work on a project at home, contribute to
> something open source, use it to write support scripts at work,
> whatever.  Figure out a way to write code.

I second that. I moved from Python to J2EE in my job, but I didn't stop
writing Python code for my spare-time projects. Now, when tight schedule
made my project's manager to shift paradigm from buzz to productivity, I
am happy I can write programs in Python again. On AS/400, but still
better than Java... :D

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From samschul at pacbell.net  Fri Jun  2 22:45:56 2006
From: samschul at pacbell.net (sam)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 13:45:56 -0700
Subject: How do you practice Python?
In-Reply-To: <e5q50j$eu$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
References: <1149150517.034409.292530@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<1149271920.917381.112910@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<e5q50j$eu$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <1149281156.712919.226210@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

Years ago I developed a Hard Disk Drive diagnostic program "SCSIPython"
while working for  a disk drive company. When I left that company,and
realized that these routines would never be used by the company, I
released it as Open Source. Since then I have maintained this code, and
enhanced it with the various versions of Python that have been released
after V1.5.
I find that with each update my code becomes more robust,with added
features. Also As I moved from company to company I made certain that
they knew that this code was Open Source,and only proprietary methods
will be excluded, when I signed the standard intellectual property
forms.

Sam Schulenburg


Jarek Zgoda wrote:
> sjdevnull at yahoo.com napisa?(a):
>
> >>In our field, we don't always get to program in the language we'd like
> >>to program. So... how do you practice Python in this case?
> >
> > Write code.  Lots of it.  Work on a project at home, contribute to
> > something open source, use it to write support scripts at work,
> > whatever.  Figure out a way to write code.
>
> I second that. I moved from Python to J2EE in my job, but I didn't stop
> writing Python code for my spare-time projects. Now, when tight schedule
> made my project's manager to shift paradigm from buzz to productivity, I
> am happy I can write programs in Python again. On AS/400, but still
> better than Java... :D
> 
> -- 
> Jarek Zgoda
> http://jpa.berlios.de/



From spiralx at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 18:08:09 2006
From: spiralx at gmail.com (James)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 17:08:09 +0100
Subject: How do you practice Python?
In-Reply-To: <e5q50j$eu$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
References: <1149150517.034409.292530@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<1149271920.917381.112910@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<e5q50j$eu$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <7ee3dcd80606030908nbd09943j8cf34c217e4cac07@mail.gmail.com>

Thirded here. Perhaps better for me is that although I program
client-side Java for my job, as much of the backend as possible I code
in Python, which makes it easier to do a lot of data processing stuff
much simpler than Java would. And it's let me use and understand all
of the new features of the language... last time I did it for a job
was in the days of Python 1.5.2.

Being non-critical utilities on the backend means whenever new
features are introduced I can upgrade my code to take advantage of
them without worrying about things going wrong as well ;)

James

On 02/06/06, Jarek Zgoda <jzgoda at o2.usun.pl> wrote:
> I second that. I moved from Python to J2EE in my job, but I didn't stop
> writing Python code for my spare-time projects. Now, when tight schedule
> made my project's manager to shift paradigm from buzz to productivity, I
> am happy I can write programs in Python again. On AS/400, but still
> better than Java... :D
>
> --
> Jarek Zgoda
> http://jpa.berlios.de/
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From ray_usenet at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  1 10:38:17 2006
From: ray_usenet at yahoo.com (Ray)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 01:38:17 -0700
Subject: How do you practice programming?
Message-ID: <1149151097.741307.79440@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

OK, maybe I shoot a more general question to the group since there are
so many great programmers here: how do you practice your craft?

I do it in the following way:

1. Set aside 30 minutes to 1 hour a day to read up on the latest
development, be it about the tool I'm using, the language, or the
platform, or the framework, etc.

2. Once every 1-2 months, go to Amazon, and look for the book with the
best reviews in a particular technology (e.g.: SQL Cookbook, etc.)

3. Practice something that I may not be using currently at work, but
always good to know, e.g.: I try to be reasonably competent in at least
2 major current languages--right now it's Java and C#, and 1 dynamic
language, which has been Python for quite some time. SQL is always
useful, so I try to practice that, especially the more complex queries
involving group bys and window function, etc.

How do you do your practice?



From onurb at xiludom.gro  Thu Jun  1 10:55:23 2006
From: onurb at xiludom.gro (bruno at modulix)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:55:23 +0200
Subject: How do you practice programming?
In-Reply-To: <1149151097.741307.79440@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149151097.741307.79440@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447eabee$0$19567$636a55ce@news.free.fr>

Ray wrote:
> OK, maybe I shoot a more general question to the group since there are
> so many great programmers here: how do you practice your craft?

I'm certainly not one of them, but...

(snip)
> How do you do your practice?
> 

1/ programming
2/ programming
3/ lurking here, reading posts and sometimes trying to answer, reading
source code of the oss apps/frameworks I'm working with, searching
practical solutions in the cookbook etc
4/ programming

-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb at xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"


From ray_usenet at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  1 11:00:28 2006
From: ray_usenet at yahoo.com (Ray)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 02:00:28 -0700
Subject: How do you practice programming?
In-Reply-To: <447eabee$0$19567$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
References: <1149151097.741307.79440@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<447eabee$0$19567$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <1149152428.348192.106970@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

bruno at modulix wrote:
> 1/ programming
> 2/ programming
> 3/ lurking here, reading posts and sometimes trying to answer, reading
> source code of the oss apps/frameworks I'm working with, searching
> practical solutions in the cookbook etc
> 4/ programming

Yeah, but that's what most of us are doing too, we are programmers
after all. But you know, it's like a boxer cannot get better just by
going into a lot of fights, he needs good instruction from a good
coach.

So what would you do? (I guess it's your number #3 above).

>
> --
> bruno desthuilliers
> python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
> p in 'onurb at xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"



From onurb at xiludom.gro  Thu Jun  1 14:01:04 2006
From: onurb at xiludom.gro (bruno at modulix)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:01:04 +0200
Subject: How do you practice programming?
In-Reply-To: <1149152428.348192.106970@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149151097.741307.79440@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<447eabee$0$19567$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
	<1149152428.348192.106970@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447ed774$0$12371$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

Ray wrote:
> bruno at modulix wrote:
> 
>>1/ programming
>>2/ programming
>>3/ lurking here, reading posts and sometimes trying to answer, reading
>>source code of the oss apps/frameworks I'm working with, searching
>>practical solutions in the cookbook etc
>>4/ programming
> 
> 
> Yeah, but that's what most of us are doing too, we are programmers
> after all. But you know, it's like a boxer cannot get better just by
> going into a lot of fights, he needs good instruction from a good
> coach.

I learned the guitar mostly by watching other guitarists (good and bad
ones), trying to teach whoever asked me what I already knew, and
practicing many hours a day (until my fingers hurt too much in fact). In
programming, like in any other form of art - and like in spirituality
for that matters - *everyone* can be your master - sometimes without
even being aware of it - if you let him teach you.

> So what would you do? (I guess it's your number #3 above).

The #3 only would not be of any use without at least the #1, the #2 and
the #4. But I admit that #1, #2 and #4 would be equally useless without
the #3 !-)

How, and yes, also : using one's head - not only to wear a hat - may be
of some help too.

-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb at xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"


From anthra.norell at tiscalinet.ch  Thu Jun  1 10:51:57 2006
From: anthra.norell at tiscalinet.ch (Anthra Norell)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:51:57 +0200
Subject: losing handles of open files
Message-ID: <000c01c68558$a48a9680$0201a8c0@mcuf7>

Hi
      If a piece of code exits with an exception before it closes an open file, that file seems to remain locked, which is real pain in the butt if I develop a file in parallel with a piece of code. Is there a way to close such lost files short of starting a new session?

Frederic

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From bignose+hates-spam at benfinney.id.au  Fri Jun  2 00:30:54 2006
From: bignose+hates-spam at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:30:54 +1000
Subject: losing handles of open files
References: <000c01c68558$a48a9680$0201a8c0@mcuf7>
Message-ID: <877j40zext.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Please don't post non-text message bodies to discussion
forums. Message bodies should be plain text.

"Anthra Norell" <anthra.norell at tiscalinet.ch> writes:

> If a piece of code exits with an exception before it closes an open
> file, that file seems to remain locked, which is real pain in the
> butt

You will want to examine the 'finally' clause, which is executed after
the 'try' suite regardless of exceptions.

    <URL:http://docs.python.org/ref/exceptions.html>
    <URL:http://docs.python.org/ref/try.html#try>

You may also be interested in the 'with' statement, coming in Python
2.5, which will be a more natural way of expressing this idiom.

    <URL:http://docs.python.org/dev/whatsnew/section-generators.html>

-- 
 \         "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all |
  `\    others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking |
_o__)                       power called an idea"  -- Thomas Jefferson |
Ben Finney



From anthra.norell at tiscalinet.ch  Fri Jun  2 16:14:36 2006
From: anthra.norell at tiscalinet.ch (Anthra Norell)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:14:36 +0200
Subject: losing handles of open files
References: <000c01c68558$a48a9680$0201a8c0@mcuf7>
	<877j40zext.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <001d01c6864e$e1498260$0201a8c0@mcuf7>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Finney" <bignose+hates-spam at benfinney.id.au>
To: <python-list at python.org>
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 12:30 AM
Subject: Re: losing handles of open files


> Please don't post non-text message bodies to discussion
> forums. Message bodies should be plain text.
>
> "Anthra Norell" <anthra.norell at tiscalinet.ch> writes:
>
> > If a piece of code exits with an exception before it closes an open
> > file, that file seems to remain locked, which is real pain in the
> > butt
>
> You will want to examine the 'finally' clause, which is executed after
> the 'try' suite regardless of exceptions.
>
>     <URL:http://docs.python.org/ref/exceptions.html>
>     <URL:http://docs.python.org/ref/try.html#try>
>
> You may also be interested in the 'with' statement, coming in Python
> 2.5, which will be a more natural way of expressing this idiom.
>
>     <URL:http://docs.python.org/dev/whatsnew/section-generators.html>
>
> --
>  \         "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all |
>   `\    others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking |
> _o__)                       power called an idea"  -- Thomas Jefferson |
> Ben Finney
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


Ben,
   Thank you very much for your input. I'm sorry about the text. I thought
it was text. Could it have to do with the font?
I am aware of the finally clause, though I just haven't met it face to face
yet on the learning curve yet. Guess the time has come. I shall study your
references.
   Frederic






From petr at tpc.cz  Thu Jun  1 12:05:21 2006
From: petr at tpc.cz (Petr Jakes)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 03:05:21 -0700
Subject: what is the reasonable (best?) Exception handling strategy?
Message-ID: <1149156321.440828.95150@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

I am a little bit confused by all possibilities for exceptions handling
in Python (probably because I am not skilled enough??) I did try to
search trough this list and reading Python tutorial about Errors and
Exceptions but didn't find some "general" answer about exception
handling policy (strategy).

In the following example each row can IMHO raise an exception (if the
Firebird service is not running for example, if the database is
corrupted etc.).

Do I have to write "try/except" clause on each row?

Or to write try/except block (function) where to handle (on one place)
all exceptions expected in the program code is a good idea?

Or do I have to write own "exception hook"?

What about unexpected exceptions? :(

def databasExample(h,d,u,p):
    import kinterbasdb; kinterbasdb.init(type_conv=200)
    con = kinterbasdb.connect(host=h, database=d,user=u, password=p)
    cur = con.cursor()
    insertStatement = cur.prep("some SQL statement......")
    cur.executemany(insertStatement, ListOfValues)
    con.commit()
    cur.close()

Generally I am trying to find some general advices or suggestions about
exception handling more than the specific answers to the above
mentioned code example.

Regards

Petr Jakes



From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Thu Jun  1 12:44:29 2006
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 10:44:29 GMT
Subject: what is the reasonable (best?) Exception handling strategy?
References: <1149156321.440828.95150@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <Xns97D5776DACD98duncanbooth@127.0.0.1>

Petr Jakes wrote:

> I am a little bit confused by all possibilities for exceptions handling
> in Python (probably because I am not skilled enough??) I did try to
> search trough this list and reading Python tutorial about Errors and
> Exceptions but didn't find some "general" answer about exception
> handling policy (strategy).

It depends on what you are actually able to do about the exception. If you 
can recover from it meaningfully then you may want to handle it near the 
place it is thrown. If all you can do is abort the entire program then you 
handle that at the outermost level of the program.

> 
> In the following example each row can IMHO raise an exception (if the
> Firebird service is not running for example, if the database is
> corrupted etc.).

If a service isn't running that sounds pretty fatal. Handle it at the outer 
levels of your code. If the database is corrupted that might also be 
terminal unless you include bad data (e.g. invalid email address) in that 
definition, in that case it may be something you can fix, ignore, or live 
with: it should be obvious in this case where in your code you need to do 
the fixup or ignoring.

> 
> Do I have to write "try/except" clause on each row?

The processing you perform on a row might raise an exception for which the 
correct action would be to simply continue with the next row. In that case 
handle the exception inside the 'processRow' function so the code which 
iterates over the rows never sees it. If it is a more serious problem which 
is going to stop you processing any further rows then you let it propogate.

> 
> Or to write try/except block (function) where to handle (on one place)
> all exceptions expected in the program code is a good idea?
> 
> Or do I have to write own "exception hook"?
> 
> What about unexpected exceptions? :(

Big errors, or unexpected errors you handle in one place usually by making 
sure a human is alerted to the problem.


From reply.in.the.newsgroup at my.address.is.invalid  Thu Jun  1 14:49:33 2006
From: reply.in.the.newsgroup at my.address.is.invalid (Rene Pijlman)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:49:33 +0200
Subject: what is the reasonable (best?) Exception handling strategy?
References: <1149156321.440828.95150@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <qhot72plfi8esuoh4ihtp7bv5i567e3h5a@4ax.com>

Petr Jakes:
>What about unexpected exceptions? :(

I asked a similar question some time ago:
http://groups.google.nl/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/25963b99da4b2653

-- 
Ren? Pijlman


From eric_brunel at despammed.com  Thu Jun  1 13:12:18 2006
From: eric_brunel at despammed.com (Eric Brunel)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:12:18 +0200
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
Message-ID: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev>

Hi all,

I just stepped on a thing that I can't explain. Here is some code showing  
the problem:

-----------------------------
class C:
   f = None
   def __init__(self):
     if self.f is not None:
       self.x = self.f(0)
     else:
       self.x = 0

class C1(C):
   f = int

class C2(C):
   f = lambda x: x != 0

o1 = C1()
print o1.x

o2 = C2()
print o2.x
-----------------------------

Basically, I want an optional variant function across sub-classes of the  
same class. I did it like in C1 for a start, then I needed something like  
C2. The result is... surprising:

0
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "func-vs-meth.py", line 18, in ?
     o2 = C2()
   File "func-vs-meth.py", line 5, in __init__
     self.x = self.f(0)
TypeError: <lambda>() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given)

So the first works and o1.x is actually 0. But the second fails because  
self is also being passed as the first argument to the lambda. Defining a  
"real" function doesn't help: the error is the same.

My actual question is: why does it work in one case and not in the other?  
As I see it, int is just a function with one parameter, and the lambda is  
just another one. So why does the first work, and not the second? What  
'black magic' takes place so that int is not mistaken for a method in the  
first case?
-- 
python -c "print ''.join([chr(154 - ord(c)) for c in  
'U(17zX(%,5.zmz5(17l8(%,5.Z*(93-965$l7+-'])"


From maric at aristote.info  Thu Jun  1 13:29:14 2006
From: maric at aristote.info (Maric Michaud)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:29:14 +0200
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
In-Reply-To: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
References: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
Message-ID: <200606011329.15661.maric@aristote.info>

Le Jeudi 01 Juin 2006 13:12, Eric Brunel a ?crit :
> class C1(C):
>    f = int

int is not a function but a type, but it's callable so int(0) return 0.

> class C2(C):
>    f = lambda x: x != 0

lambda is a function, applied as a class attribute it becomes a method so it's 
called with a first parameter representing the instance, self.f(0) in the 
__init__  becomes C2.f(self, 0), so the lambda should be :

    f = lambda s, x: x != 0 # s for self, some poeple use _

this exactly the same as :

   def f(self, val) :
       return x != 0

(that lambda will return True or False i expect this is not what you want)

-- 
_____________

Maric Michaud
_____________

Aristote - www.aristote.info
3 place des tapis
69004 Lyon
Tel: +33 426 880 097


From maric at aristote.info  Thu Jun  1 13:33:38 2006
From: maric at aristote.info (Maric Michaud)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:33:38 +0200
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
In-Reply-To: <200606011329.15661.maric@aristote.info>
References: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
	<200606011329.15661.maric@aristote.info>
Message-ID: <200606011333.38780.maric@aristote.info>

Le Jeudi 01 Juin 2006 13:29, Maric Michaud a ?crit?:
> this exactly the same as :
>
> ? ?def f(self, val) :
> ? ? ? ?return x != 0
oops,
    def f(self, val) :
        return val != 0


-- 
_____________

Maric Michaud
_____________

Aristote - www.aristote.info
3 place des tapis
69004 Lyon
Tel: +33 426 880 097


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Jun  1 13:34:53 2006
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:34:53 +0200
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
References: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
Message-ID: <e5mj8a$ffs$03$1@news.t-online.com>

Eric Brunel wrote:

> My actual question is: why does it work in one case and not in the other?
> As I see it, int is just a function with one parameter, and the lambda is
> just another one. So why does the first work, and not the second? What
> 'black magic' takes place so that int is not mistaken for a method in the
> first case?
 
A python-coded function has a __get__ attribute, a C-function doesn't.
Therefore C1.f performs just the normal attribute lookup while C2.f also
triggers the f.__get__(C2(), C2) call via the descriptor protocol which
happens to return a bound method.

Peter




From maric at aristote.info  Thu Jun  1 13:46:16 2006
From: maric at aristote.info (Maric Michaud)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:46:16 +0200
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
In-Reply-To: <e5mj8a$ffs$03$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev> <e5mj8a$ffs$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <200606011346.17442.maric@aristote.info>

Le Jeudi 01 Juin 2006 13:34, Peter Otten a ?crit?:
> A python-coded function has a __get__ attribute, a C-function doesn't.
> Therefore C1.f performs just the normal attribute lookup while C2.f also
> triggers the f.__get__(C2(), C2) call via the descriptor protocol which
> happens to return a bound method.
I don't think it's about c-coded versus python-coded stuff, C1.f is a type, 
C2.f is a method.

In [14]: class t : pass
   ....:

In [15]: class u :
   ....:     f = t
   ....:
   ....:

In [16]: u().f()
Out[16]: <__main__.t instance at 0xa795a9ec>


-- 
_____________

Maric Michaud
_____________

Aristote - www.aristote.info
3 place des tapis
69004 Lyon
Tel: +33 426 880 097


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Jun  1 14:03:27 2006
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:03:27 +0200
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
References: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev> <e5mj8a$ffs$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<mailman.6400.1149162381.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <e5mkts$v2b$00$1@news.t-online.com>

Maric Michaud wrote:

> Le Jeudi 01 Juin 2006 13:34, Peter Otten a ?crit?:
>> A python-coded function has a __get__ attribute, a C-function doesn't.
>> Therefore C1.f performs just the normal attribute lookup while C2.f also
>> triggers the f.__get__(C2(), C2) call via the descriptor protocol which
>> happens to return a bound method.

> I don't think it's about c-coded versus python-coded stuff, C1.f is a
> type, C2.f is a method.

You are right, int is a type not a function, but presence (and
implementation, of course) of __get__ is still the distinguishing factor:

>>> class Int(int):
...     class __metaclass__(type):
...             def __get__(*args): print "XXX", args
...
>>> class C:
...     int = Int
...
>>> C().int
XXX (<class '__main__.Int'>, <__main__.C instance at 0x402948cc>, <class
__main__.C at 0x40281f2c>)

Also:

>>> from math import sin
>>> sin
<built-in function sin>
>>> def son(x): pass
...
>>> class C:
...     sin = sin
...     son = son
...
>>> C().sin(0)
0.0
>>> C().son(0)
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
TypeError: son() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given)

Peter


From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Thu Jun  1 14:03:28 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:03:28 +1000
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6400.1149162381.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev> <e5mj8a$ffs$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<mailman.6400.1149162381.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <447ED790.20101@lexicon.net>

On 1/06/2006 9:46 PM, Maric Michaud wrote:
> Le Jeudi 01 Juin 2006 13:34, Peter Otten a ?crit :
>> A python-coded function has a __get__ attribute, a C-function doesn't.
>> Therefore C1.f performs just the normal attribute lookup while C2.f also
>> triggers the f.__get__(C2(), C2) call via the descriptor protocol which
>> happens to return a bound method.
> I don't think it's about c-coded versus python-coded stuff, C1.f is a type, 
> C2.f is a method.
> 

Try putting f = chr (a C function); it behaves like int, not like a 
1-arg Python function. See below.

Cheers,
John

C:\junk>type func_meth.py
class C:
     f = None
     def __init__(self):
         if self.f is not None:
             self.x = self.f(0)
         else:
             self.x = 99 # differs from int(0) :-)
class C1(C):
    f = int
class C2(C):
    def f(self, arg):
         return arg != 0
class C3(C):
     pass
class C4(C):
     f = chr
for cls in (C1, C2, C3, C4):
     o = cls()
     print "callable: %r; result: %r" % (o.f, o.x)

C:\junk>func_meth.py
callable: <type 'int'>; result: 0
callable: <bound method C2.f of <__main__.C2 instance at 0x00AE6F58>>; 
result: False
callable: None; result: 99
callable: <built-in function chr>; result: '\x00'

C:\junk>



From m.yanowitz at kearfott.com  Thu Jun  1 14:31:34 2006
From: m.yanowitz at kearfott.com (Michael Yanowitz)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:31:34 -0400
Subject: Tkinter - changing existing Dialog?
In-Reply-To: <447ED790.20101@lexicon.net>
Message-ID: <HGEOKIAPAMCIFPPBDALKAEKNCAAA.m.yanowitz@kearfott.com>

Hello:


   I have a Tkinter GUI Dialog with many buttons and labels and text
widgets.
What I would like to do is, can I:

1) Disable/deactivate/hide a button, text widget that is already drawn (and
   of course the opposite enable/activate/show it)?

2) Change the text of a label or button that is already drawn?

  based on actions taken by the user. Can it be done without destroying
the present dialog or the objects in it and creating a new one?

  Sorry for what probably is such a trivial and basic question. I just can't
find the answer or know what the technical term for what I want to do is to
search for it myself.

Thanks in advance:
Michael Yanowitz



From jmcmonagle at velseis.com.au  Fri Jun  2 00:30:56 2006
From: jmcmonagle at velseis.com.au (John McMonagle)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:30:56 +1000
Subject: Tkinter - changing existing Dialog?
In-Reply-To: <HGEOKIAPAMCIFPPBDALKAEKNCAAA.m.yanowitz@kearfott.com>
References: <HGEOKIAPAMCIFPPBDALKAEKNCAAA.m.yanowitz@kearfott.com>
Message-ID: <1149201056.26711.27.camel@kuepper.vels-int.com.au>

On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 08:31 -0400, Michael Yanowitz wrote:
> Hello:
> 
> 
>    I have a Tkinter GUI Dialog with many buttons and labels and text
> widgets.
> What I would like to do is, can I:
> 
> 1) Disable/deactivate/hide a button, text widget that is already drawn (and
>    of course the opposite enable/activate/show it)?
> 
> 2) Change the text of a label or button that is already drawn?
> 
>   based on actions taken by the user. Can it be done without destroying
> the present dialog or the objects in it and creating a new one?
> 
>   Sorry for what probably is such a trivial and basic question. I just can't
> find the answer or know what the technical term for what I want to do is to
> search for it myself.

To disable/deactivate a button widget, use the keyword 'state'.  For
example, 


import Tkinter as Tk
root = Tk.Tk()
bid = Tk.Button(root, text='test', state=Tk.NORMAL)
bid.pack()
bid.configure(state=Tk.DISABLED)

If you want to hide the button (using Pack geometry manager):

bid.pack_forget()

You can pack it again using bid.pack() but it may be difficult to pack
it back where you originally intended.

If you are using the Grid geometry manager:

bid.grid_forget()

To put it back simply call grid again with the same row, column.



Changing the text of a label or button already drawn is simply done by a
call to the configure method on the button or label's text attribute:

bid.configure(text='Help')

Regards,

John







-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.



From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Thu Jun  1 14:40:37 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 05:40:37 -0700
Subject: Tkinter - changing existing Dialog?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6401.1149165099.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <447ED790.20101@lexicon.net>
	<mailman.6401.1149165099.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149165637.162492.139380@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


Michael Yanowitz wrote:
> Hello:
>
>
>    I have a Tkinter GUI Dialog with many buttons and labels and text
> widgets.
>

So start a *new* thread.



From claird at lairds.us  Fri Jun  2 02:57:06 2006
From: claird at lairds.us (Cameron Laird)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 00:57:06 +0000
Subject: Tkinter - changing existing Dialog?
References: <mailman.6401.1149165099.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20f4l3-nga.ln1@lairds.us>

In article <mailman.6401.1149165099.27775.python-list at python.org>,
Michael Yanowitz <m.yanowitz at kearfott.com> wrote:
>Hello:
>
>
>   I have a Tkinter GUI Dialog with many buttons and labels and text
>widgets.
>What I would like to do is, can I:
>
>1) Disable/deactivate/hide a button, text widget that is already drawn (and
>   of course the opposite enable/activate/show it)?
			.
			.
			.
  import Tkinter

  root = Tkinter.Tk()

  def actions():
      print "Someone pushed the button."
      b.configure(state = Tkinter.DISABLED)

  b = Tkinter.Button(root, text = "Push me", command = actions)
  b.pack()
  root.mainloop()



From m.yanowitz at kearfott.com  Fri Jun  2 14:20:42 2006
From: m.yanowitz at kearfott.com (Michael Yanowitz)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 08:20:42 -0400
Subject: Tkinter - changing existing Dialog?
In-Reply-To: <20f4l3-nga.ln1@lairds.us>
Message-ID: <HGEOKIAPAMCIFPPBDALKIEKOCAAA.m.yanowitz@kearfott.com>

Thanks.

  That is what I was looking for. The configure command (as you and John
pointed out),
should do what I need. The first response of starting a new thread was not
what I was
looking for.

Michael Yanowitz


-----Original Message-----

In article <mailman.6401.1149165099.27775.python-list at python.org>,
Michael Yanowitz <m.yanowitz at kearfott.com> wrote:
>Hello:
>
>
>   I have a Tkinter GUI Dialog with many buttons and labels and text
>widgets.
>What I would like to do is, can I:
>
>1) Disable/deactivate/hide a button, text widget that is already drawn (and
>   of course the opposite enable/activate/show it)?
			.
			.
			.
  import Tkinter

  root = Tkinter.Tk()

  def actions():
      print "Someone pushed the button."
      b.configure(state = Tkinter.DISABLED)

  b = Tkinter.Button(root, text = "Push me", command = actions)
  b.pack()
  root.mainloop()




From claird at lairds.us  Fri Jun  2 03:03:22 2006
From: claird at lairds.us (Cameron Laird)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 01:03:22 +0000
Subject: Tkinter - changing existing Dialog?
References: <mailman.6401.1149165099.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <qbf4l3-nga.ln1@lairds.us>

In article <mailman.6401.1149165099.27775.python-list at python.org>,
Michael Yanowitz <m.yanowitz at kearfott.com> wrote:
			.
			.
			.
>2) Change the text of a label or button that is already drawn?
>
>  based on actions taken by the user. Can it be done without destroying
>the present dialog or the objects in it and creating a new one?
			.
			.
			.
  import Tkinter

  root = Tkinter.Tk()

  counter = 0

      # This is one of several ways one can access the Button's label.
  def set_text():
      b.configure(text = "The button has been pushed %d time(s)." % counter)

  def actions():
      global counter
      counter += 1
      set_text()

  b = Tkinter.Button(root, command = actions)
  set_text()
  b.pack()
  root.mainloop()



From onurb at xiludom.gro  Thu Jun  1 14:27:05 2006
From: onurb at xiludom.gro (bruno at modulix)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:27:05 +0200
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
In-Reply-To: <e5mj8a$ffs$03$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev> <e5mj8a$ffs$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <447edd8d$0$2135$636a55ce@news.free.fr>

Peter Otten wrote:
> Eric Brunel wrote:
> 
> 
>>My actual question is: why does it work in one case and not in the other?
>>As I see it, int is just a function with one parameter, and the lambda is
>>just another one. So why does the first work, and not the second? What
>>'black magic' takes place so that int is not mistaken for a method in the
>>first case?
> 
>  
> A python-coded function has a __get__ attribute, a C-function doesn't.
> Therefore C1.f performs just the normal attribute lookup while C2.f also
> triggers the f.__get__(C2(), C2) call via the descriptor protocol which
> happens to return a bound method.

FWIW:

class Obj(object):
  def __new__(cls, val, *args, **kw):
    print "in Obj.__new__"
    print "- called with :"
    print "  cls :", cls
    print "  val :", val
    print "  args:", str(args)
    print "  kw  :", kw
    obj = object.__new__(cls, *args, **kw)
    print "got : %s - %s" % (obj, dir(obj))
    return obj

class CPlus(C):
  f = Obj


> Peter
> 
> 


-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb at xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"


From eric_brunel at despammed.com  Thu Jun  1 14:37:33 2006
From: eric_brunel at despammed.com (Eric Brunel)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:37:33 +0200
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
References: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev> <e5mj8a$ffs$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <optagv0vs7rqur0o@eb.pragmadev>

On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:34:53 +0200, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:

> Eric Brunel wrote:
>
>> My actual question is: why does it work in one case and not in the  
>> other?
>> As I see it, int is just a function with one parameter, and the lambda  
>> is
>> just another one. So why does the first work, and not the second? What
>> 'black magic' takes place so that int is not mistaken for a method in  
>> the
>> first case?
> A python-coded function has a __get__ attribute, a C-function doesn't.
> Therefore C1.f performs just the normal attribute lookup while C2.f also
> triggers the f.__get__(C2(), C2) call via the descriptor protocol which
> happens to return a bound method.

Thanks for your explanations, Peter. I'll have to find another way to do  
what I want...
-- 
python -c "print ''.join([chr(154 - ord(c)) for c in  
'U(17zX(%,5.zmz5(17l8(%,5.Z*(93-965$l7+-'])"


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Jun  1 14:51:09 2006
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:51:09 +0200
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
References: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev> <e5mj8a$ffs$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<optagv0vs7rqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
Message-ID: <e5mnnb$53c$00$1@news.t-online.com>

Eric Brunel wrote:

> On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:34:53 +0200, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
> 
>> Eric Brunel wrote:
>>
>>> My actual question is: why does it work in one case and not in the
>>> other?
>>> As I see it, int is just a function with one parameter, and the lambda
>>> is
>>> just another one. So why does the first work, and not the second? What
>>> 'black magic' takes place so that int is not mistaken for a method in
>>> the
>>> first case?
>> A python-coded function has a __get__ attribute, a C-function doesn't.
>> Therefore C1.f performs just the normal attribute lookup while C2.f also
>> triggers the f.__get__(C2(), C2) call via the descriptor protocol which
>> happens to return a bound method.
> 
> Thanks for your explanations, Peter. I'll have to find another way to do
> what I want...

Maybe just

class C2(C):
    f?=?staticmethod(lambda?x:?x?!=?0)

Peter



From chris.cavalaria at free.fr  Thu Jun  1 15:36:48 2006
From: chris.cavalaria at free.fr (Christophe)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:36:48 +0200
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
In-Reply-To: <optagv0vs7rqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
References: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev> <e5mj8a$ffs$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<optagv0vs7rqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
Message-ID: <447eed61$0$20860$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

Eric Brunel a ?crit :
> On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:34:53 +0200, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
> 
>> Eric Brunel wrote:
>>
>>> My actual question is: why does it work in one case and not in the  
>>> other?
>>> As I see it, int is just a function with one parameter, and the 
>>> lambda  is
>>> just another one. So why does the first work, and not the second? What
>>> 'black magic' takes place so that int is not mistaken for a method 
>>> in  the
>>> first case?
>>
>> A python-coded function has a __get__ attribute, a C-function doesn't.
>> Therefore C1.f performs just the normal attribute lookup while C2.f also
>> triggers the f.__get__(C2(), C2) call via the descriptor protocol which
>> happens to return a bound method.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your explanations, Peter. I'll have to find another way to 
> do  what I want...

You have 2 ways to do it already, here's a third :

class C:
   f = None
   def __init__(self):
     if self.__class__.f is not None:
       self.x = self.__class__.f(0)
     else:
       self.x = 0


From maric at aristote.info  Thu Jun  1 15:58:01 2006
From: maric at aristote.info (Maric Michaud)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:58:01 +0200
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
In-Reply-To: <447eed61$0$20860$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
References: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev> <optagv0vs7rqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
	<447eed61$0$20860$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <200606011558.02715.maric@aristote.info>

Le Jeudi 01 Juin 2006 15:36, Christophe a ?crit?:
> ? ? ? ?self.x = self.__class__.f(0)
nope, this will result in a TypeError "unbound method must be called with 
instance as first argument"
-- 
_____________

Maric Michaud
_____________

Aristote - www.aristote.info
3 place des tapis
69004 Lyon
Tel: +33 426 880 097


From chris.cavalaria at free.fr  Fri Jun  2 11:03:34 2006
From: chris.cavalaria at free.fr (Christophe)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:03:34 +0200
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6407.1149170286.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
	<optagv0vs7rqur0o@eb.pragmadev>	<447eed61$0$20860$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
	<mailman.6407.1149170286.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <447ffed3$0$6176$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

Maric Michaud a ?crit :
> Le Jeudi 01 Juin 2006 15:36, Christophe a ?crit :
> 
>>       self.x = self.__class__.f(0)
> 
> nope, this will result in a TypeError "unbound method must be called with 
> instance as first argument"

Your right :(

staticmethod it is then.


From maric at aristote.info  Thu Jun  1 14:44:37 2006
From: maric at aristote.info (Maric Michaud)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:44:37 +0200
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
In-Reply-To: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
References: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
Message-ID: <200606011444.38612.maric@aristote.info>

Le Jeudi 01 Juin 2006 13:12, Eric Brunel a ?crit?:
> Thanks for your explanations, Peter. I'll have to find another way to do ?
> what I want...

maybe :

class C:
 ? ?f = None
 ? ?def __init__(self):
 ? ? ?if self.f is not None:
 ? ? ? ?self.x = self.f(0)
 ? ? ?else:
 ? ? ? ?self.x = 0

 class C2(C):
 ? ?def __init__(self) :
	self.f = lambda x: x != 0

-- 
_____________

Maric Michaud
_____________

Aristote - www.aristote.info
3 place des tapis
69004 Lyon
Tel: +33 426 880 097


From onurb at xiludom.gro  Thu Jun  1 15:07:26 2006
From: onurb at xiludom.gro (bruno at modulix)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:07:26 +0200
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
In-Reply-To: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
References: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
Message-ID: <447ee701$0$22029$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

Eric Brunel wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I just stepped on a thing that I can't explain. Here is some code
> showing  the problem:
> 
> -----------------------------
> class C:

Do yourself a favour : use new-style classes.
class C(object)

>   f = None
>   def __init__(self):
>     if self.f is not None:
>       self.x = self.f(0)
>     else:
>       self.x = 0
> 
> class C1(C):
>   f = int
> 
> class C2(C):
>   f = lambda x: x != 0
> 
> o1 = C1()
> print o1.x
> 
> o2 = C2()
> print o2.x
> -----------------------------
> 
> Basically, I want an optional variant function across sub-classes of
> the  same class. 
>
> I did it like in C1 for a start, then I needed
> something like  C2. The result is... surprising:
> 
> 0
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "func-vs-meth.py", line 18, in ?
>     o2 = C2()
>   File "func-vs-meth.py", line 5, in __init__
>     self.x = self.f(0)
> TypeError: <lambda>() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given)

Not surprising at all.

Functions implement the descriptor protocol[1]. When bound to a class
and looked up via an instance, it's the __get__ method of the function
object that get called - with the instance as param, as defined by the
descriptor protocol. This method then return the function wrapped - with
the instance - in an Method object - which itself, when called, returns
the result of calling the function *with the instance as first
parameter*. Which is how methods can work on the instance, and why one
has to explicitly declare the instance parameter in "functions to be
used as methods", but not explicitly pass it at call time.

(please some guru correct me if I missed something here, but AFAIK it
must be a correct enough description of method invocation mechanism in
Python).

[1] about descriptors, see:
http://docs.python.org/ref/descriptors.html
http://www.geocities.com/foetsch/python/new_style_classes.htm#descriptors

> So the first works and o1.x is actually 0. 

int is not a function.
>>> type(int)
<type 'type'>

int is a type. A Python type is  a callable object, and act as a factory
for instances of it. If the type doesn't implement the descriptor
protocol, when bound to a class and looked up via an instance, normal
lookup rules apply. So the type object  is returned as is.


In your case, since int does'nt implement the descriptor protocol, once
looked up (and returned as is), it's called with a correct argument - so
everything runs fine.

Try this:

class Obj(object):
  def __new__(cls, val, *args, **kw):
    print "in Obj.__new__"
    print "- called with :"
    print "  cls :", cls
    print "  val :", val
    print "  args: %s" % str(args)
    print "  kw  : %s" % kw
    obj = object.__new__(cls, *args, **kw)
    print "got : %s - %s" % (obj, dir(obj))
    return obj

  def __init__(self, *args, **kw):
    print "in Obj.__init__"
    print "- called with :"
    print "  args: %s" % str(args)
    print "  kw  : %s" % kw


class C4(C):
  f = Obj

> But the second fails because 
> self is also being passed as the first argument to the lambda. 

Of course. It's a function, and it's bound to a class, and looked up via
an instance of the class.

Try this:

def truc(*args, **kw):
  print "in truc()__"
  print "- called with :"
  print "  args: %s" % str(args)
  print "  kw  : %s" % kw
  if len(args) > 1:
    return args[1]

class C6(C):
  f = truc


> Defining
> a  "real" function doesn't help: the error is the same.

What' a "real" function ?-) lambdas *are* real functions.
>>> type(lambda x: x)
<type 'function'>
>>>

> My actual question is: why does it work in one case and not in the
> other? 

cf above.

> As I see it, int is just a function with one parameter,

Nope, it's a type. Functions are just one kind of callable. Types are
callables too, as are any object overloading the call operator - which
is '()' - by implementing the __call__(self, ...) method.

class NotAFunc(object):
   def __call__(self):
      print "I'm not a function"
      return 42

func = NotAFunc()
func()

> and the
> lambda is  just another one. 

True. And functions implement the descriptor protocol.

> So why does the first work, and not the
> second? What  'black magic' takes place so that int is not mistaken for
> a method in the  first case?

cf above.

If you understood all my explanations, you now know how to solve the
problem.

Else, here the solution:

class C3(C):
  f = lambda self, x: return x


-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb at xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"


From eric_brunel at despammed.com  Thu Jun  1 17:56:03 2006
From: eric_brunel at despammed.com (Eric Brunel)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 17:56:03 +0200
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
References: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
	<447ee701$0$22029$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <optag47pbmrqur0o@eb.pragmadev>

On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:07:26 +0200, bruno at modulix <onurb at xiludom.gro>  
wrote:
> Do yourself a favour : use new-style classes.
> class C(object)

I would if I could: I'm stuck with Python 2.1 for the moment (I should  
have mentionned it; sorry for that).

[snip]
>> Basically, I want an optional variant function across sub-classes of
>> the  same class.
>>
>> I did it like in C1 for a start, then I needed
>> something like  C2. The result is... surprising:
>>
>> 0
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>   File "func-vs-meth.py", line 18, in ?
>>     o2 = C2()
>>   File "func-vs-meth.py", line 5, in __init__
>>     self.x = self.f(0)
>> TypeError: <lambda>() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given)
>
> Not surprising at all.
>
> Functions implement the descriptor protocol[1]. When bound to a class
> and looked up via an instance, it's the __get__ method of the function
> object that get called - with the instance as param, as defined by the
> descriptor protocol. This method then return the function wrapped - with
> the instance - in an Method object - which itself, when called, returns
> the result of calling the function *with the instance as first
> parameter*. Which is how methods can work on the instance, and why one
> has to explicitly declare the instance parameter in "functions to be
> used as methods", but not explicitly pass it at call time.
>
> (please some guru correct me if I missed something here, but AFAIK it
> must be a correct enough description of method invocation mechanism in
> Python).
>
> [1] about descriptors, see:
> http://docs.python.org/ref/descriptors.html
> http://www.geocities.com/foetsch/python/new_style_classes.htm#descriptors
>
>> So the first works and o1.x is actually 0.
>
> int is not a function.
>>>> type(int)
> <type 'type'>
>
> int is a type.

Python 2.1 again:
>>> type(int)
<type 'builtin_function_or_method'>

But as someone mentionned, the problem is the same with other built-in  
functions, such as chr, even in the latest Python version.

I still find that a little counter-intuitive to have different behaviours  
for a built-in function and a Python function. I really would expect them  
to work (or not to work) the same in all situations, even if I now  
understand better how all works behind the scenes. But I'll live with it...

[snip]
> If you understood all my explanations, you now know how to solve the
> problem.
>
> Else, here the solution:
>
> class C3(C):
>   f = lambda self, x: return x

This is actually the first thing I did, but it seemed a bit weird to me to  
have a - let's say - callable with one parameter in one case and another  
with two parameters in the other one. So I finally turned my callable  
attribute into a real instance method, just for consistency.

Anyway, thanks a lot for your explanations.
-- 
python -c "print ''.join([chr(154 - ord(c)) for c in  
'U(17zX(%,5.zmz5(17l8(%,5.Z*(93-965$l7+-'])"


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Fri Jun  2 01:37:02 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:37:02 +0200
Subject: Function mistaken for a method
In-Reply-To: <optag47pbmrqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
References: <optagr2sorrqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
	<447ee701$0$22029$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
	<optag47pbmrqur0o@eb.pragmadev>
Message-ID: <447f4a98$0$11216$636a55ce@news.free.fr>

Eric Brunel a ?crit :
> On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:07:26 +0200, bruno at modulix 
> <onurb at xiludom.gro>  wrote:
> 
>> Do yourself a favour : use new-style classes.
>> class C(object)
> 
> 
> I would if I could: I'm stuck with Python 2.1 for the moment (I should  
> have mentionned it; sorry for that).

Err, yes - it actually makes most of my explanations inaccurate.

> [snip]

(snip too)


From aljosa.mohorovic at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 14:09:14 2006
From: aljosa.mohorovic at gmail.com (aljosa)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 05:09:14 -0700
Subject: py2exe & qt4/qimage
Message-ID: <1149163754.826678.95920@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

i'm trying to convert python (image resizer script using PyQt4) script
to exe but support for jpeg and tiff image formats is located in
Qt4.1\plugins\imageformats (dll files) and when script is converted
exe file doesn't support jpeg and tiff.

i tryed using all file formats in
script:
tmp1 = QImage('images/type.bmp')
tmp2 = QImage('images/type.gif')
tmp3 = QImage('images/type.jpg')
tmp4 = QImage('images/type.png')
tmp5 = QImage('images/type.tif')

but it doesn't work when i convert script to exe.
any tips on howto include jpeg and tiff image formats support in exe?



From Serge.Orlov at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 20:02:44 2006
From: Serge.Orlov at gmail.com (Serge Orlov)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 11:02:44 -0700
Subject: py2exe & qt4/qimage
References: <1149163754.826678.95920@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149184964.329575.292450@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

aljosa wrote:
> i'm trying to convert python (image resizer script using PyQt4) script
> to exe but support for jpeg and tiff image formats is located in
> Qt4.1\plugins\imageformats (dll files) and when script is converted
> exe file doesn't support jpeg and tiff.
>
> i tryed using all file formats in
> script:
> tmp1 = QImage('images/type.bmp')
> tmp2 = QImage('images/type.gif')
> tmp3 = QImage('images/type.jpg')
> tmp4 = QImage('images/type.png')
> tmp5 = QImage('images/type.tif')
>
> but it doesn't work when i convert script to exe.
> any tips on howto include jpeg and tiff image formats support in exe?

You need bundle the plugins as data files:
http://docs.python.org/dist/node12.html



From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Thu Jun  1 14:11:32 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:11:32 -0400
Subject: DB-API: how can I find the column names in a cursor?
Message-ID: <EMAfg.1457$Su3.130164@news20.bellglobal.com>

Hi



I use a code similar to this to retrieve data from Oracle database:



import cx_Oracle



con = cx_Oracle.connect("me/secret at tns")

cur = con.cursor()

outcur = con.cursor()

cur.execute("""

     BEGIN

         MyPkg.MyProc(:cur);

     END;""", cur=outcur)



for row in out_cur:

     print row





The problem is I don't know how to find out what are the column name and 
type that comes out of query (each row in cursor).



Is there any possibility that my Python code can find out the column name 
and type in each row in cursor?



The other problem is accessing data in each row by column name. In Ruby I 
can say:



Print row["ColName"]



In Python; however, I must access to row contents by integer index, like 
PRINT ROW[0], which reduces my program's readability.



Can I access to row's contents by column name?



Any help would be appreciated,

Alan




From fredrik at pythonware.com  Thu Jun  1 14:54:16 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:54:16 +0200
Subject: DB-API: how can I find the column names in a cursor?
References: <EMAfg.1457$Su3.130164@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <e5mo1o$h4$1@sea.gmane.org>

"A.M" wrote:

> The problem is I don't know how to find out what are the column name and type that comes out of 
> query (each row in cursor).
>
> Is there any possibility that my Python code can find out the column name and type in each row in 
> cursor?

>From "cursor objects" in the DB-API documentation:

    .description

    "This read-only attribute is a sequence of 7-item
    sequences.  Each of these sequences contains information
    describing one result column: (name, type_code,
    display_size, internal_size, precision, scale,
    null_ok). The first two items (name and type_code) are
    mandatory, the other five are optional and must be set to
    None if meaningfull values are not provided."

The full spec is available here: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0249/

</F> 





From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Thu Jun  1 15:20:09 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:20:09 -0400
Subject: DB-API: how can I find the column names in a cursor?
References: <EMAfg.1457$Su3.130164@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6403.1149166487.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ZMBfg.2810$EF1.221459@news20.bellglobal.com>

Thank you Fredrik for help.

Would you be able to help with the second part of question:

The other problem is accessing data in each row by column name. In Ruby I
can say:

Print row["ColName"]

In Python; however, I must access to row contents by integer index, like
PRINT ROW[0], which reduces my program's readability.

Can I access to row's contents by column name?

Thanks again,
Alan



"Fredrik Lundh" <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote in message 
news:mailman.6403.1149166487.27775.python-list at python.org...
> "A.M" wrote:
>
>> The problem is I don't know how to find out what are the column name and 
>> type that comes out of query (each row in cursor).
>>
>> Is there any possibility that my Python code can find out the column name 
>> and type in each row in cursor?
>
>>From "cursor objects" in the DB-API documentation:
>
>    .description
>
>    "This read-only attribute is a sequence of 7-item
>    sequences.  Each of these sequences contains information
>    describing one result column: (name, type_code,
>    display_size, internal_size, precision, scale,
>    null_ok). The first two items (name and type_code) are
>    mandatory, the other five are optional and must be set to
>    None if meaningfull values are not provided."
>
> The full spec is available here: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0249/
>
> </F>
>
> 




From siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk  Thu Jun  1 17:16:51 2006
From: siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk (Sion Arrowsmith)
Date: 01 Jun 2006 16:16:51 +0100 (BST)
Subject: DB-API: how can I find the column names in a cursor?
References: <EMAfg.1457$Su3.130164@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6403.1149166487.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<ZMBfg.2810$EF1.221459@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <Nlb*4e8hr@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

A.M <alanalan at newsgroup.nospam> wrote:
>The other problem is accessing data in each row by column name. In Ruby I
>can say:
>
>Print row["ColName"]
>
>In Python; however, I must access to row contents by integer index, like
>PRINT ROW[0], which reduces my program's readability.
>
>Can I access to row's contents by column name?

columns = dict((name, col) for col, name in enumerate(cursor.description))
print row[columns["ColName"]]

And please don't top-post.

-- 
\S -- siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
  ___  |  "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
  \X/  |    -- Arthur C. Clarke
   her nu become? se bera eadward ofdun hl?ddre heafdes b?ce bump bump bump


From skip at pobox.com  Thu Jun  1 18:22:05 2006
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:22:05 -0500
Subject: DB-API: how can I find the column names in a cursor?
In-Reply-To: <ZMBfg.2810$EF1.221459@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <EMAfg.1457$Su3.130164@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6403.1149166487.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<ZMBfg.2810$EF1.221459@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <17535.5165.592323.404609@montanaro.dyndns.org>

    Alan> The other problem is accessing data in each row by column name. In
    Alan> Ruby I can say:

    Alan> Print row["ColName"]

    Alan> In Python; however, I must access to row contents by integer
    Alan> index, like PRINT ROW[0], which reduces my program's readability.

    Alan> Can I access to row's contents by column name?

There are a couple things you can try.  First, see if the adaptor for your
database has a way to specify that query results should be returned as a
list of dicts instead of a list of tuples.  MySQLdb allows you to select the
style of cursor class to instantiate when you create the connection.  I
think Psycopg provides a dictcursor() method on the connection (though I may
be misremembering - it's been awhile).  Other adaptors may provide similar
functionality.

Failing that, you can whip something up yourself using the description
attribute to which Fredrik referred:

    for row in curs.fetchall():
        row = dict(zip([d[0] for d in curs.description], row))
        ...

Skip


From daniel.dittmar at sap.corp  Thu Jun  1 15:54:00 2006
From: daniel.dittmar at sap.corp (Daniel Dittmar)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:54:00 +0200
Subject: DB-API: how can I find the column names in a cursor?
In-Reply-To: <EMAfg.1457$Su3.130164@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <EMAfg.1457$Su3.130164@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <e5mrhp$i8m$1@news.sap-ag.de>

A.M wrote:
> for row in out_cur:
> 
>      print row
> 
[...]

> 
> The other problem is accessing data in each row by column name. 

One useful technique is
for col1, col2, col3 in out_cur:
     sum = sum + col3

Access is still by index, but your code uses ordinary Python variables.
It works better with SELECTs as you can choose the output columns in the 
SQL. With stored procedures, there's always the possibility of someone 
changing the structure of the result set.

There exists a general library for your solution: 
http://opensource.theopalgroup.com/

Daniel




From luismgz at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 15:59:53 2006
From: luismgz at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Luis_M._Gonz=E1lez?=)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 06:59:53 -0700
Subject: DB-API: how can I find the column names in a cursor?
In-Reply-To: <EMAfg.1457$Su3.130164@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <EMAfg.1457$Su3.130164@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <1149170393.230636.74000@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

I don't know if it works this way with Oracle, but the python dbpai has
the cursor.description method that can help. For example:

cur.execute( "your query here" )
columns = [i[0] for i in cur.description]

cur.description gives a lot of data about your recordset, and the first
field is the column name.

Hope this helps...
Luis


A.M wrote:
> Hi
>
>
>
> I use a code similar to this to retrieve data from Oracle database:
>
>
>
> import cx_Oracle
>
>
>
> con = cx_Oracle.connect("me/secret at tns")
>
> cur = con.cursor()
>
> outcur = con.cursor()
>
> cur.execute("""
>
>      BEGIN
>
>          MyPkg.MyProc(:cur);
>
>      END;""", cur=outcur)
>
>
>
> for row in out_cur:
>
>      print row
>
>
>
>
>
> The problem is I don't know how to find out what are the column name and
> type that comes out of query (each row in cursor).
>
>
>
> Is there any possibility that my Python code can find out the column name
> and type in each row in cursor?
>
>
>
> The other problem is accessing data in each row by column name. In Ruby I
> can say:
>
>
>
> Print row["ColName"]
>
>
>
> In Python; however, I must access to row contents by integer index, like
> PRINT ROW[0], which reduces my program's readability.
>
>
>
> Can I access to row's contents by column name?
> 
> 
> 
> Any help would be appreciated,
> 
> Alan



From codecraig at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 14:30:32 2006
From: codecraig at gmail.com (abcd)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 05:30:32 -0700
Subject: PythonDoc Ant Task
Message-ID: <1149165032.870017.254980@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Anyone ever use the PythonDoc ant task?  I have the following...

<path id="myPyPath">
    <pathelement location="src"/>
    <pathelement location="resources"/>
</path>

<target name="pyDoc">
<mkdir dir="docs"/>
<py-doc pythonpathref="myPyPath" destdir="docs">
    <fileset dir="src">
        <include name="**/*.py"/>
    </fileset>
</py-doc>
</target>

...this is a cut out of the build xml i am using...but it shows the
relevant parts.  Anyways I can run my "pyDoc" target and it runs
successful with no errors.  a "docs" directory is created but is empty.
 Any idea as to why?

My "src" folder contains a python file, Foo.py.  which looks like this

class Bar:
    def printMe(self):
        """This method prints my data"""
        print "some data is being printed"

...Thanks in advance.



From codecraig at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 15:10:03 2006
From: codecraig at gmail.com (abcd)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 06:10:03 -0700
Subject: PythonDoc Ant Task
In-Reply-To: <1149165032.870017.254980@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149165032.870017.254980@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149167403.532618.22370@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

i found that the problem is because of an import, which is strange.
The imported module looks something like this

[code]
import time

class Foo:
    pass

class Bar:
    global javax.swing
    import javax.swing
[/code]

....so it seems that pydoc cant giggity-giggit!



From fredrik at pythonware.com  Thu Jun  1 15:41:10 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:41:10 +0200
Subject: PythonDoc Ant Task
References: <1149165032.870017.254980@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149167403.532618.22370@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5mqpn$cbd$1@sea.gmane.org>

"abcd" wrote:

> class Bar:
>    global javax.swing
>    import javax.swing
> [/code]
>
> ....so it seems that pydoc cant giggity-giggit!

"global javax.swing" is not valid Python syntax.  what is that global/import combo
supposed to do, and what environment do you run this under ?

</F> 





From micklee74 at hotmail.com  Thu Jun  1 15:44:42 2006
From: micklee74 at hotmail.com (micklee74 at hotmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 06:44:42 -0700
Subject: default argument values qns
Message-ID: <1149169482.717737.241410@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

hi
i have declared a function like this:

def aFunction ( arg1 , arg2 = 0):
         ....
         print type(arg2)

when i try to print the type of arg2, it gives me 'str' type..why is it
not integer type, since i have
declared it as 0 ??
thanks



From fredrik at pythonware.com  Thu Jun  1 15:50:20 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:50:20 +0200
Subject: default argument values qns
References: <1149169482.717737.241410@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5mras$euh$1@sea.gmane.org>

micklee74 at hotmail.com wrote:

> i have declared a function like this:
>
> def aFunction ( arg1 , arg2 = 0):
>         ....
>         print type(arg2)
>
> when i try to print the type of arg2, it gives me 'str' type..why is it
> not integer type, since i have declared it as 0 ??

because you or someone else is passing in a string as the second argument,
perhaps?

>>> def aFunction(arg1, arg2=0):
...     print type(arg2)
...
>>> aFunction(1)
<type 'int'>
>>> aFunction(1, 2.0)
<type 'float'>
>>> aFunction(1, "two")
<type 'str'>

</F> 





From alf at merlin.fayauffre.org  Thu Jun  1 15:51:23 2006
From: alf at merlin.fayauffre.org (Alexandre Fayolle)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:51:23 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: default argument values qns
References: <1149169482.717737.241410@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <slrne7ts65.6sl.alf@merlin.fayauffre.org>

Le 01-06-2006, micklee74 at hotmail.com <micklee74 at hotmail.com> nous disait:
> hi
> i have declared a function like this:
>
> def aFunction ( arg1 , arg2 = 0):
>          ....
>          print type(arg2)
>
> when i try to print the type of arg2, it gives me 'str' type..why is it
> not integer type, since i have
> declared it as 0 ??

You probably either called the function with a string as the second
argument, or assigned a string to arg2 in the ... part of the function. 

On my box, I get what you would expect:

>>> def aFunction ( arg1 , arg2 = 0):
...          print type(arg2)
... 
>>> aFunction(2)
<type 'int'>


Now, remember that there are no variables in Python, only identifiers,
which are refering to values. When you print type(arg2), you are not
printing the "type of variable arg2", but the "type of the value
referenced by arg2", which is quite different, especially because it can
change during the execution of the program. 

-- 
Alexandre Fayolle                              LOGILAB, Paris (France)
Formations Python, Zope, Plone, Debian:  http://www.logilab.fr/formations
D?veloppement logiciel sur mesure:       http://www.logilab.fr/services
Python et calcul scientifique:           http://www.logilab.fr/science


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Thu Jun  1 15:53:21 2006
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:53:21 -0500
Subject: default argument values qns
In-Reply-To: <1149169482.717737.241410@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149169482.717737.241410@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447EF151.2020309@tim.thechases.com>

> i have declared a function like this:
> 
> def aFunction ( arg1 , arg2 = 0):
>          ....
>          print type(arg2)
> 
> when i try to print the type of arg2, it gives me 'str'
> type..why is it  not integer type, since i have declared
 > it as 0 ??


 >>> def a(arg1, arg2=0):
...     print type(arg2)
...
 >>> a("something")
<type 'int'>


Looks like it's an int to me.  You must be doing something 
spurious in your mysterious "...." that changes the data type.

-tkc





From aisaac0 at verizon.net  Thu Jun  1 16:07:15 2006
From: aisaac0 at verizon.net (David Isaac)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:07:15 GMT
Subject: argmax
Message-ID: <nwCfg.16110$lN5.7176@trnddc04>

1. Why is there no argmax built-in?
(This would return the index of the largest element in a sequence.)

2. Is this a good argmax (as long as I know the iterable is finite)?
def argmax(iterable): return max(izip( iterable, count() ))[1]

3. If this is the only place in a module where I need count and izip,
should I import them at the module level or at the level of the function?
What are the considerations here?

Thanks,
Alan Isaac




From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Thu Jun  1 17:29:21 2006
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 15:29:21 GMT
Subject: argmax
References: <nwCfg.16110$lN5.7176@trnddc04>
Message-ID: <Xns97D5A7B854E1Dduncanbooth@127.0.0.1>

David Isaac wrote:

> 1. Why is there no argmax built-in?
> (This would return the index of the largest element in a sequence.)

Probably there isn't a built-in because it isn't a commonly needed 
function.

What is your use-case for argmax? If for example you want to repeatedly 
remove the largest element from a list, then sort the list and pop the last 
element (or use a heap, except heapq lets you pop the smallest so you can't 
use it directly).


From maxerickson at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 17:29:46 2006
From: maxerickson at gmail.com (Max Erickson)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:29:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: argmax
References: <nwCfg.16110$lN5.7176@trnddc04>
Message-ID: <Xns97D5753731F84maxericksongmailcom@80.91.229.5>

"David Isaac" <aisaac0 at verizon.net> wrote:

> 1. Why is there no argmax built-in?
> (This would return the index of the largest element in a
> sequence.) 
> 
> 2. Is this a good argmax (as long as I know the iterable is
> finite)? def argmax(iterable): return max(izip( iterable, count()
> ))[1] 
> 

use len:

len(iterable)-1


max




From george.sakkis at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 17:40:23 2006
From: george.sakkis at gmail.com (George Sakkis)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 08:40:23 -0700
Subject: argmax
References: <nwCfg.16110$lN5.7176@trnddc04>
Message-ID: <1149176423.854154.152240@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

David Isaac wrote:

> 1. Why is there no argmax built-in?
> (This would return the index of the largest element in a sequence.)

I guess because it's not used frequently enough. I've needed
argmax/argmin more than once though, so I would welcome them as
builtins.

> 2. Is this a good argmax (as long as I know the iterable is finite)?
> def argmax(iterable): return max(izip( iterable, count() ))[1]

Yes, it's ok. Here's another one that doesn't require importing
itertools:
def argmax(iterable): return max((x,i) for i,x in
enumerate(iterable))[1]

> 3. If this is the only place in a module where I need count and izip,
> should I import them at the module level or at the level of the function?
> What are the considerations here?

Both have their merits. I like having the imports close to the point
they're used, at least if used only once; OTOH having all imports at
the top of the module makes easier to see the module's dependencies
without grep'ing for import (that's especially useful for non-standard
imported modules or new additions ot the std lib if backwards
compatibility is an issue).

George



From alf at merlin.fayauffre.org  Thu Jun  1 17:50:55 2006
From: alf at merlin.fayauffre.org (Alexandre Fayolle)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:50:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: argmax
References: <nwCfg.16110$lN5.7176@trnddc04>
Message-ID: <slrne7u369.c0k.alf@merlin.fayauffre.org>

Le 01-06-2006, David <aisaac0 at verizon.net> nous disait:
> 1. Why is there no argmax built-in?
> (This would return the index of the largest element in a sequence.)

You'll get argmin and argmax in Numeric and its descendants (numarray
and numpy). 


-- 
Alexandre Fayolle                              LOGILAB, Paris (France)
Formations Python, Zope, Plone, Debian:  http://www.logilab.fr/formations
D?veloppement logiciel sur mesure:       http://www.logilab.fr/services
Python et calcul scientifique:           http://www.logilab.fr/science


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Jun  1 18:03:47 2006
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 18:03:47 +0200
Subject: argmax
References: <nwCfg.16110$lN5.7176@trnddc04>
Message-ID: <e5n30f$mhl$03$1@news.t-online.com>

David Isaac wrote:

> 2. Is this a good argmax (as long as I know the iterable is finite)?
> def argmax(iterable): return max(izip( iterable, count() ))[1]

There's a subtle difference to the builtin: argmax() gives you the (index of
the) last maximum while max() returns the (value of the) first maximum:

>>> from itertools import count, izip
>>> def argmax(iterable):
...     return max(izip(iterable, count()))[1]
...
>>> class Int(int): pass
...
>>> type(max([Int(0), 0]))
<class '__main__.Int'> # must be the first item then
>>> argmax([Int(0), 0])
1

If you care, here's the fix building on George's implementation:

>>> def argmax2(iterable):
...     return -max((v, -i) for i, v in enumerate(iterable))[1]
...
>>> argmax2([Int(0), 0])
0

Peter


From aisaac0 at verizon.net  Thu Jun  1 18:32:03 2006
From: aisaac0 at verizon.net (David Isaac)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:32:03 GMT
Subject: argmax
References: <nwCfg.16110$lN5.7176@trnddc04> <e5n30f$mhl$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <7EEfg.16123$lN5.4994@trnddc04>

Thanks for all the replies.
A couple of comments.

1. I think the usefulness of an argmax built-in can be assessed
by looking at other languages (and e.g. at numpy).  So I do not
buy the "not needed" argument as presented.  More like "haven't
got around to it," I'm thinking.

2. The particular use case this time is strategy choice.
The desired strategy (i.e., index) is the one with the highest payoff.

3. Thanks to George, and to Peter for noticing a subtle difference
in the implementations.

Alan Isaac




From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 21:08:32 2006
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:08:32 -0600
Subject: argmax
In-Reply-To: <nwCfg.16110$lN5.7176@trnddc04>
References: <nwCfg.16110$lN5.7176@trnddc04>
Message-ID: <57SdneDWRNGypuLZRVn-tg@comcast.com>

David Isaac wrote:
> 2. Is this a good argmax (as long as I know the iterable is finite)?
> def argmax(iterable): return max(izip( iterable, count() ))[1]

In Python 2.5:

Python 2.5a2 (trunk:46491M, May 27 2006, 14:43:55) [MSC v.1310 32 bit 
(Intel)] on win32
 >>> iterable = [5, 8, 2, 11, 6]
 >>> import operator
 >>> max(enumerate(iterable), key=operator.itemgetter(1))
(3, 11)


STeVe


From bencvt at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 00:33:38 2006
From: bencvt at gmail.com (Ben Cartwright)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 15:33:38 -0700
Subject: argmax
In-Reply-To: <nwCfg.16110$lN5.7176@trnddc04>
References: <nwCfg.16110$lN5.7176@trnddc04>
Message-ID: <1149201218.659046.64030@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>

David Isaac wrote:
> 2. Is this a good argmax (as long as I know the iterable is finite)?
> def argmax(iterable): return max(izip( iterable, count() ))[1]

Other than the subtle difference that Peter Otten pointed out, that's a
good method.

However if the iterable is a list, it's cleaner (and more efficient) to
use seq.index(max(seq)).  That way you won't be creating and comparing
all those tuples.

  def argmax(it):
      try:
          it.index
      except AttributeError:
          it = list(it)
          # Or if it would too expensive to convert it to list:
          #return -max((v, -i) for i, v in enumerate(it))[1]
      return it.index(max(it))

--Ben



From duncanm255 at hotmail.com  Thu Jun  1 16:34:23 2006
From: duncanm255 at hotmail.com (D)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 07:34:23 -0700
Subject: Starting New Process
Message-ID: <1149172463.881528.131290@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Hello, I need to write a server program that performs the following
tasks:

1)  Listens on TCP port 5555 for a connection
2)  When client connects, launches application (for example, vi), then
closes connection with client
3)  Goes back to listening on TCP port 5555 for an incoming connection

The main thing I need to make sure of is that when the server program
closes, that the applications that were launched remain running (i.e. I
would need to launch them independently of the server program).   Any
help as to how to do this would be greatly appreciated!



From exarkun at divmod.com  Thu Jun  1 17:09:14 2006
From: exarkun at divmod.com (Jean-Paul Calderone)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:09:14 -0400
Subject: Starting New Process
In-Reply-To: <1149172463.881528.131290@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20060601150914.28682.2078896178.divmod.quotient.9318@ohm>

On 1 Jun 2006 07:34:23 -0700, D <duncanm255 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hello, I need to write a server program that performs the following
>tasks:
>
>1)  Listens on TCP port 5555 for a connection
>2)  When client connects, launches application (for example, vi), then
>closes connection with client
>3)  Goes back to listening on TCP port 5555 for an incoming connection

Untested:

  from twisted.internet import protocol, reactor

  class ViRunner(protocol.Protocol):
      def connectionMade(self):
          reactor.spawnProcess(
              None,
              '/usr/bin/setsid',
              ['setsid', '/usr/bin/vi'])
          self.transport.loseConnection()

  f = protocol.ServerFactory()
  f.protocol = ViRunner
  reactor.listenTCP(5555, f)
  reactor.run()

Jean-Paul


From duncanm255 at hotmail.com  Thu Jun  1 20:08:04 2006
From: duncanm255 at hotmail.com (D)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 11:08:04 -0700
Subject: Starting New Process
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6409.1149174563.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <1149172463.881528.131290@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6409.1149174563.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149185284.820789.321130@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Thanks, Jean-Paul - is there any way to do it without using Twisted,
since I am not very familiar with it? (i.e. just using the os library)
Thanks.

Jean-Paul Calderone wrote:
> On 1 Jun 2006 07:34:23 -0700, D <duncanm255 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Hello, I need to write a server program that performs the following
> >tasks:
> >
> >1)  Listens on TCP port 5555 for a connection
> >2)  When client connects, launches application (for example, vi), then
> >closes connection with client
> >3)  Goes back to listening on TCP port 5555 for an incoming connection
>
> Untested:
>
>   from twisted.internet import protocol, reactor
>
>   class ViRunner(protocol.Protocol):
>       def connectionMade(self):
>           reactor.spawnProcess(
>               None,
>               '/usr/bin/setsid',
>               ['setsid', '/usr/bin/vi'])
>           self.transport.loseConnection()
>
>   f = protocol.ServerFactory()
>   f.protocol = ViRunner
>   reactor.listenTCP(5555, f)
>   reactor.run()
> 
> Jean-Paul



From phleum_nospam at chello.se  Thu Jun  1 20:59:13 2006
From: phleum_nospam at chello.se (Carl)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:59:13 +0200
Subject: Starting New Process
References: <1149172463.881528.131290@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6409.1149174563.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149185284.820789.321130@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <IGGfg.1248$YI3.145@amstwist00>

D wrote:

> Thanks, Jean-Paul - is there any way to do it without using Twisted,
> since I am not very familiar with it? (i.e. just using the os library)
> Thanks.
> 
> Jean-Paul Calderone wrote:
>> On 1 Jun 2006 07:34:23 -0700, D <duncanm255 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >Hello, I need to write a server program that performs the following
>> >tasks:
>> >
>> >1)  Listens on TCP port 5555 for a connection
>> >2)  When client connects, launches application (for example, vi), then
>> >closes connection with client
>> >3)  Goes back to listening on TCP port 5555 for an incoming connection
>>
>> Untested:
>>
>>   from twisted.internet import protocol, reactor
>>
>>   class ViRunner(protocol.Protocol):
>>       def connectionMade(self):
>>           reactor.spawnProcess(
>>               None,
>>               '/usr/bin/setsid',
>>               ['setsid', '/usr/bin/vi'])
>>           self.transport.loseConnection()
>>
>>   f = protocol.ServerFactory()
>>   f.protocol = ViRunner
>>   reactor.listenTCP(5555, f)
>>   reactor.run()
>> 
>> Jean-Paul

Use import socket ifyou don't want to use twisted (which is incredibly
good). Google for "+socket +python +server" and you will find what you are
looking for. 

See, for example,
http://floppsie.comp.glam.ac.uk/Glamorgan/gaius/wireless/5.html 

Carl


From duncanm255 at hotmail.com  Thu Jun  1 21:24:47 2006
From: duncanm255 at hotmail.com (D)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 12:24:47 -0700
Subject: Starting New Process
In-Reply-To: <IGGfg.1248$YI3.145@amstwist00>
References: <1149172463.881528.131290@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6409.1149174563.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149185284.820789.321130@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<IGGfg.1248$YI3.145@amstwist00>
Message-ID: <1149189887.279693.146240@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

Sorry, I should've specified - I'm familiar with sockets, but I was
referring to spawning a 'vi' process independent of my Python app..


Carl wrote:
> D wrote:
>
> > Thanks, Jean-Paul - is there any way to do it without using Twisted,
> > since I am not very familiar with it? (i.e. just using the os library)
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Jean-Paul Calderone wrote:
> >> On 1 Jun 2006 07:34:23 -0700, D <duncanm255 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >Hello, I need to write a server program that performs the following
> >> >tasks:
> >> >
> >> >1)  Listens on TCP port 5555 for a connection
> >> >2)  When client connects, launches application (for example, vi), then
> >> >closes connection with client
> >> >3)  Goes back to listening on TCP port 5555 for an incoming connection
> >>
> >> Untested:
> >>
> >>   from twisted.internet import protocol, reactor
> >>
> >>   class ViRunner(protocol.Protocol):
> >>       def connectionMade(self):
> >>           reactor.spawnProcess(
> >>               None,
> >>               '/usr/bin/setsid',
> >>               ['setsid', '/usr/bin/vi'])
> >>           self.transport.loseConnection()
> >>
> >>   f = protocol.ServerFactory()
> >>   f.protocol = ViRunner
> >>   reactor.listenTCP(5555, f)
> >>   reactor.run()
> >>
> >> Jean-Paul
>
> Use import socket ifyou don't want to use twisted (which is incredibly
> good). Google for "+socket +python +server" and you will find what you are
> looking for.
>
> See, for example,
> http://floppsie.comp.glam.ac.uk/Glamorgan/gaius/wireless/5.html
> 
> Carl



From duncanm255 at hotmail.com  Mon Jun  5 17:32:10 2006
From: duncanm255 at hotmail.com (D)
Date: 5 Jun 2006 08:32:10 -0700
Subject: Starting New Process
In-Reply-To: <1149189887.279693.146240@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149172463.881528.131290@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6409.1149174563.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149185284.820789.321130@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<IGGfg.1248$YI3.145@amstwist00>
	<1149189887.279693.146240@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149521530.000954.101520@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Sorry to bring it back up, but is there a way to spawn the process
without Twisted?



From brochu121 at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 19:21:29 2006
From: brochu121 at gmail.com (david brochu jr)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:29 -0400
Subject: Starting New Process
Message-ID: <9583ed900606051021xbcc2cceo6fefb0bdd134ed06@mail.gmail.com>

try os.spawn() using the os module
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From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Thu Jun  1 16:42:40 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:42:40 -0400
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
Message-ID: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>

Hi,



I am new to Python, with C#/Java background



Is there any built-in Hash implementation in Python? I am looking for a 
container that I can access to it's items by name. Something like this:



Print container["memeberName"]





I am asking this because I learned that DB-API in Python doesn't offer 
access to cursor columns by name. The only option is access by index. I hope 
that I've got it wrong!



I learned Ruby perfectly supports that.





Thank you,

Alan




From saint.infidel at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 17:01:06 2006
From: saint.infidel at gmail.com (infidel)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 08:01:06 -0700
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
In-Reply-To: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <1149174066.510963.83060@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

> Is there any built-in Hash implementation in Python? I am looking for a
> container that I can access to it's items by name. Something like this:
>
> Print container["memeberName"]

You obviously haven't read the tutorial, they're called "dictionaries"
in Python

> I am asking this because I learned that DB-API in Python doesn't offer
> access to cursor columns by name. The only option is access by index. I hope
> that I've got it wrong!

That's because the DB-API uses tuples to represent records.

> I learned Ruby perfectly supports that.

Yay for Ruby.



From brian at sweetapp.com  Thu Jun  1 17:10:14 2006
From: brian at sweetapp.com (Brian Quinlan)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 17:10:14 +0200
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
In-Reply-To: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <447F0356.3090207@sweetapp.com>

A.M wrote:
> Is there any built-in Hash implementation in Python? I am looking for a 
> container that I can access to it's items by name. Something like this:
> 
> Print container["memeberName"]

d = {"memberName" : "some value"}
print d["memberName"]

> I am asking this because I learned that DB-API in Python doesn't offer 
> access to cursor columns by name. The only option is access by index. I hope 
> that I've got it wrong!
> 
> I learned Ruby perfectly supports that.

Python does not use column names by default because they are not 
portable across database implementations. That being said, you can get 
them easily, if you want. Look at the "description" attribute of your 
cursor instance.

Cheers,
Brian



From jeffrey at fro.man  Thu Jun  1 17:34:35 2006
From: jeffrey at fro.man (Jeffrey Froman)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:34:35 -0700
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <127u27pjm8gu1c1@corp.supernews.com>

A.M wrote:

> I am asking this because I learned that DB-API in Python doesn't offer
> access to cursor columns by name. The only option is access by index. I
> hope that I've got it wrong!

While it's not part of the DB-API as far as I know, the MySQLdb package (and
perhaps other DB access modules as well, I don't know) provides
a "DictCursor" class that returns query results as a tuple of column-keyed
dictionaries (hashes, already demonstrated by Brian).


Jeffrey


From fredrik at pythonware.com  Thu Jun  1 18:09:32 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 18:09:32 +0200
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <e5n3fs$htr$1@sea.gmane.org>

"A.M" wrote:

> I am new to Python, with C#/Java background

that's not really much of an excuse for not reading *any* Python tutorial before
you jump in...

> I am asking this because I learned that DB-API in Python doesn't offer access to cursor columns by 
> name. The only option is access by index. I hope that I've got it wrong!

several people have already told you how to deal with this in Python.  please see
the followups to your earlier post.

> I learned Ruby perfectly supports that.

Ruby's DB interface, perhaps.  Python's standard DB-API doesn't support this
by default, for portability and performance reasons.  that doesn't mean that Python
don't have "hashes", just that the DB-API doesn't provide dictionary-style access
to columns.

see the followups to your earlier post for more details, and ways to handle this.

(a much better way to deal with this is of course to *name* the variables in your
select statements, so 1) the database engine can spot errors early on, and 2) it
won't have to fetch data that you don't really need).

</F> 





From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Thu Jun  1 18:49:06 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:49:06 -0400
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com>


"Fredrik Lundh" <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote in message 
news:mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list at python.org...
> "A.M" wrote:
>
>> I am new to Python, with C#/Java background
>
> that's not really much of an excuse for not reading *any* Python tutorial 
> before
> you jump in...

Hi Fredrik,

1st of all, I am really impressed by this Python community. Answers are 
helpful and I am having excellent progress. I appreciate everybody's help.



This is my 1st day that I am seriously diving into Python and I have to 
finish this application by the end of today. Maybe it wasn't a good idea to 
choose the language that I don't know when I have to deliver my work in such 
short time. I understand that my question might seems very trivial to you, 
but please consider the fact that I am in time pressure and I cannot go 
through a 400 book today. I promises I'll do that this weekend ;) Wish luck 
for me!



Thank you for your post,

Alan





From greg.kujawa at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 19:17:45 2006
From: greg.kujawa at gmail.com (gregarican)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 10:17:45 -0700
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <1149182265.257263.159210@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

Lemme see, starting *and* finishing a project in a language you've
never practically used before within a day's time? Sounds like a clip
from next season's opener of the TV show '24' to me.

I came from using Ruby about a year or so and even then it took a
couple of days of browsing through the Python docs and playing around
until I could consider myself somewhat useful. Coming from Java and C#
might make the departure a little steeper. Good luck!

A.M wrote:
> "Fredrik Lundh" <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote in message
> news:mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list at python.org...
> > "A.M" wrote:
> >
> >> I am new to Python, with C#/Java background
> >
> > that's not really much of an excuse for not reading *any* Python tutorial
> > before
> > you jump in...
>
> Hi Fredrik,
>
> 1st of all, I am really impressed by this Python community. Answers are
> helpful and I am having excellent progress. I appreciate everybody's help.
>
>
>
> This is my 1st day that I am seriously diving into Python and I have to
> finish this application by the end of today. Maybe it wasn't a good idea to
> choose the language that I don't know when I have to deliver my work in such
> short time. I understand that my question might seems very trivial to you,
> but please consider the fact that I am in time pressure and I cannot go
> through a 400 book today. I promises I'll do that this weekend ;) Wish luck
> for me!
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your post,
> 
> Alan



From siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk  Fri Jun  2 17:21:04 2006
From: siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk (Sion Arrowsmith)
Date: 02 Jun 2006 16:21:04 +0100 (BST)
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<1149182265.257263.159210@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <eYk*yxbir@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

gregarican <greg.kujawa at gmail.com> wrote:
>I came from using Ruby about a year or so [ ... ]

That's an interesting way round. Why did you consider Python if
you already knew Ruby, and which is now your preferred language?
(I've no interest in learning Ruby, but from what I've seen of it
I similarly can't imagine what would motivate me to learn Python.)

-- 
\S -- siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
  ___  |  "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
  \X/  |    -- Arthur C. Clarke
   her nu become? se bera eadward ofdun hl?ddre heafdes b?ce bump bump bump


From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Fri Jun  2 18:16:21 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 12:16:21 -0400
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<1149182265.257263.159210@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<eYk*yxbir@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Message-ID: <asZfg.1791$Su3.155171@news20.bellglobal.com>


"Sion Arrowsmith" <siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message 
news:eYk*yxbir at news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> gregarican <greg.kujawa at gmail.com> wrote:
>>I came from using Ruby about a year or so [ ... ]
>
> That's an interesting way round. Why did you consider Python if
> you already knew Ruby, and which is now your preferred language?
> (I've no interest in learning Ruby, but from what I've seen of it
> I similarly can't imagine what would motivate me to learn Python.)
>
> -- 
> \S -- siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
>  ___  |  "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the 
> other"
>  \X/  |    -- Arthur C. Clarke
>   her nu become? se bera eadward ofdun hl?ddre heafdes b?ce bump bump bump

My decision wasn't based on which language I am most comfortable with. I can 
do the same application in Java in one hour. We are looking for a scripting 
language to use across our organization. This is a strategic decision. Out 
1st choice is Python, the second one is Perl and the last one is Ruby. 
Yesterday I proof that Python is way to go.



The programming language aspects of Ruby is a brilliant, but the language 
itself is not everything. I encountered some problem with Ruby and I found 
it is not there yet. Here is some of problems I have with ruby: (consider 
the fact that it is my personal opinion)



1)      Ruby community feel that there is strong database access support. I 
personally didn't find DBI distribution and documentation very organized and 
at the production level. For example, DBI:OCI8 is at experimental state. 
http://www.jiubao.org/ruby-oci8/ Oracle data access support is very 
important for me and DBI:OCI8 is the only way you can get data from Oracle 
stored procedures.

2)      Komodo (my favorite scripting IDE) crashes when I debug certain type 
of Ruby scripts. Moreover there is no ActiveRuby from ActiveState **yet**.

3)      You can find lots of excellent Python books from OREILLY. You don't 
have much option for Ruby **yet**.

4)      Ruby became famous because of Rails. Rails is a great idea, but I am 
so focused on ASP.NET and J2EE and I am going to stay there. Rails doesn't 
have a production level support for IIS. So I am not very interested in 
Rails.



In essence, Ruby language is the best, but Ruby platform is too young for 
me. I'll give Ruby another two years and come back to it again.



I found the Python language quite powerful and easy. With mature and strong 
community support.










From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Sat Jun  3 11:11:42 2006
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (greg)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 21:11:42 +1200
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
In-Reply-To: <asZfg.1791$Su3.155171@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<1149182265.257263.159210@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<eYk*yxbir@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<asZfg.1791$Su3.155171@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <4ed222F1eao0mU2@individual.net>

A.M wrote:

> In essence, Ruby language is the best, but Ruby platform is too young for 
> me. I'll give Ruby another two years and come back to it again.
> 
> I found the Python language quite powerful and easy. With mature and strong 
> community support.

Welcome aboard. It'll be interesting to see whether
you *still* want to switch back to Ruby after getting
to know Python for two years!

--
Greg


From greg.kujawa at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 23:50:13 2006
From: greg.kujawa at gmail.com (gregarican)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 14:50:13 -0700
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<1149182265.257263.159210@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<eYk*yxbir@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Message-ID: <1149285013.705410.323330@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

I needed certain Windows specific libraries that were difficult to
impossible to do in Ruby. For example the Qt toolkit, LDAP support, and
a WinCE implementation. Python is more Windows-friendly so I ported
certain apps over to Python since Ruby left me hanging in just those
specifics areas.

As for my preferred language I use Smalltalk, Ruby, and Python each
about a third of the time depending on what I'm looking to accomplish.
For quick admin scripts Ruby is my choice, but perhaps that's just
because I learned it first :-)

Sion Arrowsmith wrote:
> gregarican <greg.kujawa at gmail.com> wrote:
> >I came from using Ruby about a year or so [ ... ]
>
> That's an interesting way round. Why did you consider Python if
> you already knew Ruby, and which is now your preferred language?
> (I've no interest in learning Ruby, but from what I've seen of it
> I similarly can't imagine what would motivate me to learn Python.)
>
> --
> \S -- siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
>   ___  |  "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
>   \X/  |    -- Arthur C. Clarke
>    her nu become? se bera eadward ofdun hl?ddre heafdes b?ce bump bump bump



From skip at pobox.com  Thu Jun  1 19:28:43 2006
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:28:43 -0500
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
In-Reply-To: <SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <17535.9163.63334.44669@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Alan> but please consider the fact that I am in time pressure and I
    Alan> cannot go through a 400 book today.

The tutorial is online and not 400 pages long:

    http://www.python.org/doc/current/tut/tut.html

It's got a pretty comprehensive table of contents, looking at which you
might jump quickly to Chapter 5, "Data Structures", and quickly eliminate
lists, sets and maybe tuples as possible synonyms for "hash" and investigate
Section 5.5, "Dictionaries" more closely.  The first sentence of that
section should ring bells:

    Another useful data type built into Python is the
    dictionary. Dictionaries are sometimes found in other languages as
    ``associative memories'' or ``associative arrays''.

I suspect that was what Fredrik was thinking you might reasonably have done
before asking on the list.  In addition, you could have probably answered
your own question faster by using the online documentation instead of
waiting for the Q&A round-trip to comp.lang.python.

Skip


From fredrik at pythonware.com  Thu Jun  1 21:31:39 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:31:39 +0200
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
In-Reply-To: <SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <e5nfap$2oa$1@sea.gmane.org>

A.M wrote:

> This is my 1st day that I am seriously diving into Python and I have to 
> finish this application by the end of today. Maybe it wasn't a good idea to 
> choose the language that I don't know when I have to deliver my work in such 
> short time.

are your boss aware of this ?

</F>



From greg.kujawa at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 21:35:20 2006
From: greg.kujawa at gmail.com (gregarican)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 12:35:20 -0700
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6424.1149190330.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149190520.444779.314420@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

We have sort of a .... problem .... here .... uh .... yeah
(http://www.luminomagazine.com/2004.03/spotlight/officespace/images/lumbergh/lumbergh1.jpg)...

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> A.M wrote:
>
> > This is my 1st day that I am seriously diving into Python and I have to
> > finish this application by the end of today. Maybe it wasn't a good idea to
> > choose the language that I don't know when I have to deliver my work in such
> > short time.
> 
> are your boss aware of this ?
> 
> </F>



From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Thu Jun  1 22:19:11 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:19:11 -0400
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org><SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6424.1149190330.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <PVHfg.3018$EF1.231601@news20.bellglobal.com>



"Fredrik Lundh" <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote in message 
news:mailman.6424.1149190330.27775.python-list at python.org...
> A.M wrote:
>
>> This is my 1st day that I am seriously diving into Python and I have to 
>> finish this application by the end of today. Maybe it wasn't a good idea 
>> to choose the language that I don't know when I have to deliver my work 
>> in such short time.
>
> are your boss aware of this ?
>
> </F>
>


> are your boss aware of this ?

What is wrong with *this*?
Yes, they are aware of *this*.
The application is not mission critical system. It is just a simple 
reporting tool. 




From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Fri Jun  2 02:04:45 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 17:04:45 -0700
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
In-Reply-To: <PVHfg.3018$EF1.231601@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.6424.1149190330.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<PVHfg.3018$EF1.231601@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <1149206685.768210.71990@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


A.M wrote:

> The application is not mission critical system. It is just a simple
> reporting tool.

Famous last words.



From greg.kujawa at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 03:33:50 2006
From: greg.kujawa at gmail.com (gregarican)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 18:33:50 -0700
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.6424.1149190330.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<PVHfg.3018$EF1.231601@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<1149206685.768210.71990@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149212030.851030.257180@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Dear A.M.,

The day is complete. My TPS reports still aren't on my desk. Either
with or without cover sheets. Not a good time to try to teach yourself
a new language. Please gather your belongings and move down to basement
storage C.

That'd be great,
Bill Lumberg

John Machin wrote:
> A.M wrote:
>
> > The application is not mission critical system. It is just a simple
> > reporting tool.
> 
> Famous last words.



From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Fri Jun  2 05:44:10 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:44:10 -0400
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.6424.1149190330.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<PVHfg.3018$EF1.231601@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<1149206685.768210.71990@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149212030.851030.257180@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <_qOfg.1685$Su3.148290@news20.bellglobal.com>



Well the work is done now. I arrived home at 10:30 PM.



The application takes data from Oracle 10g stored procedures and renders 
data to both HTML and CSV formats. The HTML reports have summary and 
grouping sections and the HTML files are Excel friendly. The application is 
modular and consists of reusable modules. The application is called every 
night by scheduled task. The CSV and HTML files are being deployed to Apache 
for internal employee access.



This isn't a complex and big system. Tomorrow, I'll add the email 
functionality to the application and re-use it's components for more 
reports.



Now that I finished the 1st part of the application, I have to admit that 
choosing Python was an excellent decision. Python is an awesome programming 
language with comprehensive library and great community support.



I am not that new to Python anymore.. I had a productive day. Thanks 
everybody for help.





"gregarican" <greg.kujawa at gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1149212030.851030.257180 at c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Dear A.M.,
>
> The day is complete. My TPS reports still aren't on my desk. Either
> with or without cover sheets. Not a good time to try to teach yourself
> a new language. Please gather your belongings and move down to basement
> storage C.
>
> That'd be great,
> Bill Lumberg
>
> John Machin wrote:
>> A.M wrote:
>>
>> > The application is not mission critical system. It is just a simple
>> > reporting tool.
>>
>> Famous last words.
> 




From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Sat Jun  3 02:09:17 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 02:09:17 +0200
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
In-Reply-To: <_qOfg.1685$Su3.148290@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.6424.1149190330.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<PVHfg.3018$EF1.231601@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<1149206685.768210.71990@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149212030.851030.257180@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<_qOfg.1685$Su3.148290@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <4480a39f$0$20871$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

A.M a ?crit :
> Well the work is done now. I arrived home at 10:30 PM.  
> 
(snip)
> 
> 
> Now that I finished the 1st part of the application, I have to admit that 
> choosing Python was an excellent decision. Python is an awesome programming 
> language with comprehensive library and great community support.  
> 
> I am not that new to Python anymore.. 

But the better is yet to come !-)
(FWIW, I use Python since the 1.5.2 days, and still learn new things 
almost everyday).

> I had a productive day. Thanks 
> everybody for help.

Welcome.


From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Thu Jun  1 22:37:31 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:37:31 -0400
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org><SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6424.1149190330.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <%aIfg.3027$EF1.232063@news20.bellglobal.com>


"Fredrik Lundh" <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote in message 
news:mailman.6424.1149190330.27775.python-list at python.org...
> A.M wrote:
>
>> This is my 1st day that I am seriously diving into Python and I have to 
>> finish this application by the end of today. Maybe it wasn't a good idea 
>> to choose the language that I don't know when I have to deliver my work 
>> in such short time.
>
> are your boss aware of this ?
>
> </F>
>


> are your boss aware of this ?

In fact my boss is quite impressed with my progress so far.



I am a little confused about the fact that you got frustrated with my posts 
today. I am not asking for a big tutorial or

deepest philosophy behind the concepts. The answer to this post could be 
just the word "Dictionary" which is 10 key stroke !

Does this hurt?








From fredrik at pythonware.com  Fri Jun  2 09:30:56 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:30:56 +0200
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org><SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com><mailman.6424.1149190330.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<%aIfg.3027$EF1.232063@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <e5opfg$4er$1@sea.gmane.org>

"A.M" wrote:

>> are your boss aware of this ?
>
> In fact my boss is quite impressed with my progress so far.

*your* progress ?

</F> 





From webraviteja at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 23:22:44 2006
From: webraviteja at gmail.com (Ravi Teja)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 14:22:44 -0700
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
In-Reply-To: <%aIfg.3027$EF1.232063@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.6424.1149190330.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<%aIfg.3027$EF1.232063@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <1149283364.026729.155370@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


A.M wrote:
> "Fredrik Lundh" <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote in message
> news:mailman.6424.1149190330.27775.python-list at python.org...
> > A.M wrote:
> >
> >> This is my 1st day that I am seriously diving into Python and I have to
> >> finish this application by the end of today. Maybe it wasn't a good idea
> >> to choose the language that I don't know when I have to deliver my work
> >> in such short time.
> >
> > are your boss aware of this ?
> >
> > </F>
> >
>
>
> > are your boss aware of this ?
>
> In fact my boss is quite impressed with my progress so far.
>
>
>
> I am a little confused about the fact that you got frustrated with my posts
> today. I am not asking for a big tutorial or
>
> deepest philosophy behind the concepts. The answer to this post could be
> just the word "Dictionary" which is 10 key stroke !
>
> Does this hurt?

IRC is a better place to request 10 key stroke answers. And it is
faster for you to get answers there too. Usenet is archived these days
and it adds value to all of us that it is filled with discussions of
questions that are more intellectual than those which can be looked up
at a glance at the documentation.



From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Sat Jun  3 02:14:26 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 02:14:26 +0200
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6445.1149233481.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org><SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com><mailman.6424.1149190330.27775.python-list@python.org>	<%aIfg.3027$EF1.232063@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6445.1149233481.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4480a4d5$0$20871$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

Fredrik Lundh a ?crit :
> "A.M" wrote:
> 
> 
>>>are your boss aware of this ?
>>
>>In fact my boss is quite impressed with my progress so far.
> 
> 
> *your* progress ?

I think this meant "the progress status of the software".




From piet at cs.uu.nl  Fri Jun  2 14:07:23 2006
From: piet at cs.uu.nl (Piet van Oostrum)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 14:07:23 +0200
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <m2zmgv222s.fsf@ordesa.lan>

>>>>> "A.M" <alanalan at newsgroup.nospam> (AM) wrote:

>AM> This is my 1st day that I am seriously diving into Python and I have
>AM> to finish this application by the end of today.

Are you serious?
-- 
Piet van Oostrum <piet at cs.uu.nl>
URL: http://www.cs.uu.nl/~piet [PGP 8DAE142BE17999C4]
Private email: piet at vanoostrum.org


From runlevelten at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 10:58:42 2006
From: runlevelten at gmail.com (Ten)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 09:58:42 +0100
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
In-Reply-To: <m2zmgv222s.fsf@ordesa.lan>
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<m2zmgv222s.fsf@ordesa.lan>
Message-ID: <200606290958.42417.runlevelten@gmail.com>

On Friday 02 June 2006 13:07, Piet van Oostrum wrote:
> >>>>> "A.M" <alanalan at newsgroup.nospam> (AM) wrote:
> >
> >AM> This is my 1st day that I am seriously diving into Python and I have
> >AM> to finish this application by the end of today.
>
> Are you serious?
> --
> Piet van Oostrum <piet at cs.uu.nl>
> URL: http://www.cs.uu.nl/~piet [PGP 8DAE142BE17999C4]
> Private email: piet at vanoostrum.org

It's not that unfeasible - I can think of a few instances off the top of my head where
management have read something in a magazine or heard something in conversation, then
come in full of vim and vigour the next day - telling people to create item X using buzzword
technology Y by the end of the day, the week or whatever, despite the devs having never seen it,
despite the timescale being insufficient, and despite there being *real* work to do.

Even if it's just because they want to see it, or to impress other management types with their
use of the latest "trend", I believe the best response is to just get on with it.
Self-preservation and all that.

Even so, the idea of using python across the company is actually a very sensible one, so I expect
it's programmer's enthusiasm fuelling things in this case.

-- 
There are 10 types of people in this world,
those who understand binary, and those who don't.


From steve at holdenweb.com  Thu Jun 29 14:36:37 2006
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:36:37 +0100
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
In-Reply-To: <200606290958.42417.runlevelten@gmail.com>
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>	<SQEfg.1526$Su3.135336@news20.bellglobal.com>	<m2zmgv222s.fsf@ordesa.lan>
	<200606290958.42417.runlevelten@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e80hgh$qvv$1@sea.gmane.org>

Ten wrote:
> On Friday 02 June 2006 13:07, Piet van Oostrum wrote:
> 
>>>>>>>"A.M" <alanalan at newsgroup.nospam> (AM) wrote:
>>>
>>>AM> This is my 1st day that I am seriously diving into Python and I have
>>>AM> to finish this application by the end of today.
>>
>>Are you serious?
>>--
>>Piet van Oostrum <piet at cs.uu.nl>
>>URL: http://www.cs.uu.nl/~piet [PGP 8DAE142BE17999C4]
>>Private email: piet at vanoostrum.org
> 
> 
> It's not that unfeasible - I can think of a few instances off the top of my head where
> management have read something in a magazine or heard something in conversation, then
> come in full of vim and vigour the next day - telling people to create item X using buzzword
> technology Y by the end of the day, the week or whatever, despite the devs having never seen it,
> despite the timescale being insufficient, and despite there being *real* work to do.
> 
[obYorkshireman] You were lucky. Mine used to come in like this *every 
bloody Monday morning*. British readers familiar with Kenneth Grahame's 
"The Wind in the Willows" will recognise a technological Mr. Toad here. 
The guy wanted to hit every available technology with a technical staff 
of two people, and seriously appeared to believe that he could just keep 
doing this until he came upon one that made money. Until it did he had 
the pleasure of bitching about how much of his money the company was 
swallowing. The last words I ever uttered to that man were a 
physiological impossibility. [Feels better].

> Even if it's just because they want to see it, or to impress other management types with their
> use of the latest "trend", I believe the best response is to just get on with it.
> Self-preservation and all that.
> 
Clearly it's good press for Python if it *could* pass this test of 
usability. Don't see Perl users doing that (though, to be fair, I'm very 
little involved with Perl now). And since the boss signs the cheques, 
one should mollify them when ethically possible.

> Even so, the idea of using python across the company is actually a very sensible one, so I expect
> it's programmer's enthusiasm fuelling things in this case.
> 
That's right, blame the poor technical staff ...

regards
  Steve
-- 
Steve Holden       +44 150 684 7255  +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC/Ltd          http://www.holdenweb.com
Love me, love my blog  http://holdenweb.blogspot.com
Recent Ramblings     http://del.icio.us/steve.holden



From jzgoda at o2.usun.pl  Fri Jun  2 23:32:57 2006
From: jzgoda at o2.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 23:32:57 +0200
Subject: New to Python: Do we have the concept of Hash in Python?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <k_Cfg.1502$Su3.132894@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6414.1149178232.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <e5qaud$cf8$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>

Fredrik Lundh napisa?(a):

>>I am new to Python, with C#/Java background
> 
> that's not really much of an excuse for not reading *any* Python tutorial before
> you jump in...

That's a great idea, anytime I had a problem with Java I would write
c.l.j with heading "I am new to Java, but have solid background in
Python, REXX and CL" and then I'll ask "do you have an implementation
for tuple in Java?" or "how do I change an object generation routine for
class?". At least, the are profis, they should know that.

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From aljosa.mohorovic at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 16:52:20 2006
From: aljosa.mohorovic at gmail.com (aljosa)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 07:52:20 -0700
Subject: image lib & Qt4
Message-ID: <1149173540.470829.34940@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

i'm looking for image lib which supports common image types (maybe
freeimagepy?) and is relatively easy to display image loaded through
that lib in PyQt4.
any ideas?

Aljosa



From deets at nospam.web.de  Thu Jun  1 18:01:24 2006
From: deets at nospam.web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 18:01:24 +0200
Subject: image lib & Qt4
References: <1149173540.470829.34940@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4e8haiF1dp2heU1@uni-berlin.de>

aljosa wrote:

> i'm looking for image lib which supports common image types (maybe
> freeimagepy?) and is relatively easy to display image loaded through
> that lib in PyQt4.
> any ideas?

Use PIL & StringIO to create a in-memory representation of the image as e.g.
PNG. Load that using Qt.

Diez


From aljosa.mohorovic at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 18:53:34 2006
From: aljosa.mohorovic at gmail.com (aljosa)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 09:53:34 -0700
Subject: image lib & Qt4
In-Reply-To: <4e8haiF1dp2heU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <1149173540.470829.34940@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<4e8haiF1dp2heU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <1149180814.585713.209640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

does anybody know how to load <StringIO.StringIO instance> (in-memory
representation of PNG image) from Qt (v.4.1.3) as QImage?

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
> aljosa wrote:
>
> > i'm looking for image lib which supports common image types (maybe
> > freeimagepy?) and is relatively easy to display image loaded through
> > that lib in PyQt4.
> > any ideas?
>
> Use PIL & StringIO to create a in-memory representation of the image as e.g.
> PNG. Load that using Qt.
> 
> Diez



From fredrik at pythonware.com  Fri Jun  2 06:51:40 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 06:51:40 +0200
Subject: image lib & Qt4
In-Reply-To: <1149180814.585713.209640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149173540.470829.34940@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<4e8haiF1dp2heU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<1149180814.585713.209640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5og4o$a45$1@sea.gmane.org>

aljosa wrote:

> does anybody know how to load <StringIO.StringIO instance> (in-memory
> representation of PNG image) from Qt (v.4.1.3) as QImage?

If you want the data from a StringIO object, you can either *read* the 
data from the object (it's a file-like object, after all), or use the 
getvalue() method.

Something like

    qim = QImage()
    qim.loadFromData(f.getvalue())

should work (unless they've changed things around lately).

To get better performance, you should be able to use PIL's tostring() 
method together with the QImage(buffer, width, height, depth, 
colortable, numColors, bitOrder) form of the QImage constructor.

</F>



From fredrik at pythonware.com  Fri Jun  2 08:01:26 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:01:26 +0200
Subject: image lib & Qt4
In-Reply-To: <e5og4o$a45$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <1149173540.470829.34940@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<4e8haiF1dp2heU1@uni-berlin.de>	<1149180814.585713.209640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<e5og4o$a45$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e5ok7d$kbc$1@sea.gmane.org>

Fredrik Lundh wrote:

> To get better performance, you should be able to use PIL's tostring() 
> method together with the QImage(buffer, width, height, depth, 
> colortable, numColors, bitOrder) form of the QImage constructor.

for PyQt4, that seems to have changed to QImage(buffer, width, height, 
format), where format is a QImage.Format_XXX specifier.

in other words, this should work:

	if im.mode != "RGB":
	    im = im.convert("RGB")

	data = im.tostring("raw", "BGRX")

	image = QImage(data, im.size[0], im.size[1],
			QImage.Format_RGB32)
	
note that the QImage descriptor will point into the data buffer, so you 
must hang on to data for as long you're using image.

(I haven't found a way to attach a user attribute to a QImage class; it 
doesn't complain when I do that, but it doesn't seem to do the right 
thing...)

</F>



From fredrik at pythonware.com  Sat Jun  3 10:42:27 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 10:42:27 +0200
Subject: image lib & Qt4
In-Reply-To: <e5ok7d$kbc$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <1149173540.470829.34940@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<4e8haiF1dp2heU1@uni-berlin.de>	<1149180814.585713.209640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<e5og4o$a45$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e5ok7d$kbc$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e5ri1g$ndf$1@sea.gmane.org>

Fredrik Lundh wrote:

>> To get better performance, you should be able to use PIL's tostring() 
>> method together with the QImage(buffer, width, height, depth, 
>> colortable, numColors, bitOrder) form of the QImage constructor.

I've posted a simple ImageQt interface module for PIL and PyQt4 here:

     http://svn.effbot.python-hosting.com/stuff/sandbox/pil/ImageQt.py

this interface handles 1, P, L, and RGB images efficiently.  usage:

     im = Image.open(...) # or some other pil operation

     qim = ImageQt.toimage(im)

     # to access the QImage, use qim.image.  e.g:

     label.setPixmap(QtGui.QPixmap.fromImage(qim.image))

note that the toimage() function returns a wrapper object, not a QImage 
instance.  I didn't find a reliable way to subclass from QImage, nor any 
other way to attach custom attributes to an existing QImage object.  if 
anyone knows how to do that, let me know.

</F>



From sreeram at tachyontech.net  Sat Jun  3 14:35:14 2006
From: sreeram at tachyontech.net (K.S.Sreeram)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 18:05:14 +0530
Subject: image lib & Qt4
In-Reply-To: <e5ri1g$ndf$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <1149173540.470829.34940@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<4e8haiF1dp2heU1@uni-berlin.de>	<1149180814.585713.209640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<e5og4o$a45$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e5ok7d$kbc$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e5ri1g$ndf$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <44818202.8060607@tachyontech.net>

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> 
> I've posted a simple ImageQt interface module for PIL and PyQt4 here:
> 
>      http://svn.effbot.python-hosting.com/stuff/sandbox/pil/ImageQt.py
> 

I'm getting an 'unknown raw mode' error on ImageQt.py:59:
  data = im.tostring( "raw", "BGRX" )

Does this only work with PIL 1.1.6 snapshots? I currently have PIL 1.1.5.

Regards
Sreeram

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From fredrik at pythonware.com  Sat Jun  3 15:19:55 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 15:19:55 +0200
Subject: image lib & Qt4
In-Reply-To: <44818202.8060607@tachyontech.net>
References: <1149173540.470829.34940@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<4e8haiF1dp2heU1@uni-berlin.de>	<1149180814.585713.209640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<e5og4o$a45$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e5ok7d$kbc$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e5ri1g$ndf$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<44818202.8060607@tachyontech.net>
Message-ID: <e5s29s$4ud$1@sea.gmane.org>

K.S.Sreeram wrote:

> I'm getting an 'unknown raw mode' error on ImageQt.py:59:
>   data = im.tostring( "raw", "BGRX" )
> 
> Does this only work with PIL 1.1.6 snapshots? I currently have
 > PIL 1.1.5.

it was developed on Python 2.4.3 and PIL 1.1.5, so it should work.  and 
BGRX support has been in there for ages (at least since 1.1.1).

what happens if you do:

$ python
 >>> import Image
 >>> im = Image.new("RGB", (100, 100))
 >>> print len(im.tostring("raw", "BGRX"))
40000

</F>



From sreeram at tachyontech.net  Sat Jun  3 15:41:57 2006
From: sreeram at tachyontech.net (K.S.Sreeram)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 19:11:57 +0530
Subject: image lib & Qt4
In-Reply-To: <e5s29s$4ud$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <1149173540.470829.34940@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<4e8haiF1dp2heU1@uni-berlin.de>	<1149180814.585713.209640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<e5og4o$a45$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e5ok7d$kbc$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e5ri1g$ndf$1@sea.gmane.org>	<44818202.8060607@tachyontech.net>
	<e5s29s$4ud$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <448191A5.1050502@tachyontech.net>

My bad.
I was hacking the code trying to support RGBA mode images, and
inadvertently i tried im.tostring("raw","BGRX") on the RGBA mode image.

So BGRX does indeed work for RGB mode images.

While trying to support RGBA mode images, i realized that a BGRA raw
mode is needed for working with QImage. It doesn't seem to be supported
by PIL. Any workarounds?

Regards
Sreeram

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> $ python
>  >>> import Image
>  >>> im = Image.new("RGB", (100, 100))
>  >>> print len(im.tostring("raw", "BGRX"))
> 40000

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From fredrik at pythonware.com  Sat Jun  3 16:13:04 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 16:13:04 +0200
Subject: image lib & Qt4
In-Reply-To: <448191A5.1050502@tachyontech.net>
References: <1149173540.470829.34940@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<4e8haiF1dp2heU1@uni-berlin.de>	<1149180814.585713.209640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<e5og4o$a45$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e5ok7d$kbc$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e5ri1g$ndf$1@sea.gmane.org>	<44818202.8060607@tachyontech.net>	<e5s29s$4ud$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<448191A5.1050502@tachyontech.net>
Message-ID: <e5s5dg$dd1$1@sea.gmane.org>

K.S.Sreeram wrote:

> I was hacking the code trying to support RGBA mode images, and
> inadvertently i tried im.tostring("raw","BGRX") on the RGBA mode image.
> 
> So BGRX does indeed work for RGB mode images.
> 
> While trying to support RGBA mode images, i realized that a BGRA raw
> mode is needed for working with QImage. It doesn't seem to be supported
> by PIL. Any workarounds?

sure!  here's a patch:

Index: ImageQt.py
===================================================================
--- ImageQt.py  (revision 342)
+++ ImageQt.py  (working copy)
@@ -58,6 +61,14 @@
          elif im.mode == "RGB":
              data = im.tostring("raw", "BGRX")
              format = QImage.Format_RGB32
+        elif im.mode == "RGBA":
+            try:
+                data = im.tostring("raw", "BGRA")
+            except SystemError:
+                # workaround for earlier versions
+                r, g, b, a = im.split()
+                im = Image.merge("RGBA", (b, g, r, a))
+            format = QImage.Format_ARGB32
          else:
              raise ValueError("unsupported image mode %r" % im.mode)

</F>



From sreeram at tachyontech.net  Sat Jun  3 16:21:35 2006
From: sreeram at tachyontech.net (K.S.Sreeram)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 19:51:35 +0530
Subject: image lib & Qt4
In-Reply-To: <e5s5dg$dd1$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <1149173540.470829.34940@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<4e8haiF1dp2heU1@uni-berlin.de>	<1149180814.585713.209640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<e5og4o$a45$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e5ok7d$kbc$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e5ri1g$ndf$1@sea.gmane.org>	<44818202.8060607@tachyontech.net>	<e5s29s$4ud$1@sea.gmane.org>	<448191A5.1050502@tachyontech.net>
	<e5s5dg$dd1$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <44819AEF.6040609@tachyontech.net>

thanks!
so does that mean the BGRA raw mode is supported in PIL 1.1.6?

Regards
Sreeram

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> K.S.Sreeram wrote:
> 
>> I was hacking the code trying to support RGBA mode images, and
>> inadvertently i tried im.tostring("raw","BGRX") on the RGBA mode image.
>>
>> So BGRX does indeed work for RGB mode images.
>>
>> While trying to support RGBA mode images, i realized that a BGRA raw
>> mode is needed for working with QImage. It doesn't seem to be supported
>> by PIL. Any workarounds?
> 
> sure!  here's a patch:
> 
> Index: ImageQt.py
> ===================================================================
> --- ImageQt.py  (revision 342)
> +++ ImageQt.py  (working copy)
> @@ -58,6 +61,14 @@
>           elif im.mode == "RGB":
>               data = im.tostring("raw", "BGRX")
>               format = QImage.Format_RGB32
> +        elif im.mode == "RGBA":
> +            try:
> +                data = im.tostring("raw", "BGRA")
> +            except SystemError:
> +                # workaround for earlier versions
> +                r, g, b, a = im.split()
> +                im = Image.merge("RGBA", (b, g, r, a))
> +            format = QImage.Format_ARGB32
>           else:
>               raise ValueError("unsupported image mode %r" % im.mode)
> 
> </F>
> 


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From fredrik at pythonware.com  Sat Jun  3 19:12:13 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 19:12:13 +0200
Subject: image lib & Qt4
In-Reply-To: <44819AEF.6040609@tachyontech.net>
References: <1149173540.470829.34940@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<4e8haiF1dp2heU1@uni-berlin.de>	<1149180814.585713.209640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<e5og4o$a45$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e5ok7d$kbc$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e5ri1g$ndf$1@sea.gmane.org>	<44818202.8060607@tachyontech.net>	<e5s29s$4ud$1@sea.gmane.org>	<448191A5.1050502@tachyontech.net>	<e5s5dg$dd1$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<44819AEF.6040609@tachyontech.net>
Message-ID: <e5sftd$cdj$1@sea.gmane.org>

K.S.Sreeram wrote:

> so does that mean the BGRA raw mode is supported in PIL 1.1.6?

possibly; I haven't checked.  it does mean that some future version will 
most likely support it, at least.

</F>



From dndfan at hotpop.com  Thu Jun  1 16:58:40 2006
From: dndfan at hotpop.com (The Prophet)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 07:58:40 -0700
Subject: os.walk trouble
Message-ID: <1149173920.903876.68370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

As my first Python script, I am trying to make a program that recurses
a directory searching for files whose names match a pattern. I have a
basic idea of what the regexp would look like (and I can get more
information about that), but I am stuck with incorrect understanding of
os.walk. I've tried:

root, dirs, files = os.walk(dirname)

but it fails for some reason. I have seen this done before in the
tutorial (I think it's called sequence unpacking). What is the proper
way to do this?

Thanks in advance.



From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Thu Jun  1 17:27:21 2006
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:27:21 -0500
Subject: os.walk trouble
In-Reply-To: <1149173920.903876.68370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149173920.903876.68370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447F0759.1030300@tim.thechases.com>

> but I am stuck with incorrect understanding of
> os.walk. I've tried:
> 
> root, dirs, files = os.walk(dirname)

os.walk returns an iteratable sequence of those tuples.  Thus, 
you want to have

for filepath, dirs, files in os.walk(dirname):
	#you're looking at the "dirs" and "files" in filepath
	print "Currently in %s" % filepath
	print "\t[Directories in %s]" % filepath
	print "\n\t".join(dirs)
	print "\t[Files in %s]" % filepath
	print "\n\t".join(files)
	print "=" * 50

HTH,

-tkc






From rpdooling at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 18:42:42 2006
From: rpdooling at gmail.com (BartlebyScrivener)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 09:42:42 -0700
Subject: os.walk trouble
References: <1149173920.903876.68370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6411.1149175411.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149180162.128874.153330@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Neat. And looks better, at least on my machine, if you had a tab or two
and an extra \n after the dirs.

rick

for filepath, dirs, files in os.walk(root):
        #you're looking at the "dirs" and "files" in filepath
        print "Currently in %s" % filepath
        print "\t[Directories in %s]" % filepath
        print '\t' + "\n\t".join(dirs) + '\n'
        print "\t[Files in %s]" % filepath
        print '\t' + "\n\t".join(files)
        print "=" * 50



From rpdooling at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 20:03:04 2006
From: rpdooling at gmail.com (BartlebyScrivener)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 11:03:04 -0700
Subject: os.walk trouble
References: <1149173920.903876.68370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149184984.891834.294470@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

>> root, dirs, files = os.walk(dirname)

If you want to do it this way, you need to stop it after the first one:

root, dirs, files = os.walk(dirname).next()
print root
print dirs
print files

see this thread

http://tinyurl.com/rmyo4



From rpdooling at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 20:21:28 2006
From: rpdooling at gmail.com (BartlebyScrivener)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 11:21:28 -0700
Subject: os.walk trouble
References: <1149173920.903876.68370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149186088.418824.247510@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

> As my first Python script, I am trying to make a program that recurses
> a directory searching for files whose names match a pattern. I have a
> basic idea of what the regexp would look like

You probably don't need regexp for this, just use the fnmatch module

http://docs.python.org/lib/module-fnmatch.html

There's a great recipe in the Python Cookbook 2ed for just what you're
trying to do. In fact, I believe there's a recipe in there for just
about anything anybody (at the beginner or intermediate level) wants to
do with Python.

The recipe, with some other unrelated problems:

http://tinyurl.com/nvmzg

Amazon Python Cookbook link:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0596007973/inscape-20

good luck

rick



From kent at kentsjohnson.com  Thu Jun  1 20:36:45 2006
From: kent at kentsjohnson.com (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:36:45 -0400
Subject: os.walk trouble
In-Reply-To: <1149173920.903876.68370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149173920.903876.68370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447f32c4_2@newspeer2.tds.net>

The Prophet wrote:
> As my first Python script, I am trying to make a program that recurses
> a directory searching for files whose names match a pattern. 

If your patterns are simple (supported by fnmatch), the path module 
makes this very easy:
import path
for f in path.path(dirname).walkfiles('*.foo'):
   # process a .foo file here

http://www.jorendorff.com/articles/python/path/index.html

Kent


From dndfan at hotpop.com  Thu Jun  1 20:50:13 2006
From: dndfan at hotpop.com (The Prophet)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 11:50:13 -0700
Subject: os.walk trouble
In-Reply-To: <447f32c4_2@newspeer2.tds.net>
References: <1149173920.903876.68370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<447f32c4_2@newspeer2.tds.net>
Message-ID: <1149187813.790336.285680@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Kent Johnson wrote:
> The Prophet wrote:
> > As my first Python script, I am trying to make a program that recurses
> > a directory searching for files whose names match a pattern.
>
> If your patterns are simple (supported by fnmatch), the path module
> makes this very easy:
> import path
> for f in path.path(dirname).walkfiles('*.foo'):
>    # process a .foo file here
>
> http://www.jorendorff.com/articles/python/path/index.html
>
> Kent

Well, it ain't that simple, but the suggestion is helpful, since I am
only a beginner. Thanks for everything, friends, now this aspect is
clear to me.



From michael.f.ellis at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 17:02:21 2006
From: michael.f.ellis at gmail.com (michael.f.ellis at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 08:02:21 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
Message-ID: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>

The following script puzzles me.  It creates two nested lists that
compare identically.  After identical element assignments, the lists
are different.  In one case, a single element is replaced. In the
other, an entire column is replaced.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'''
An oddity in the behavior of lists of lists. Occurs under
Python 2.4.3 (#69, Mar 29 2006, 17:35:34) [MSC v.1310 32 bit (Intel)]
on win32.
Not tested on other platforms or builds.
'''
a =[[[1,2],[1,2]],[[1,2],[1,2]]]
b = [[range(1,3)]*2]*2
assert(a==b)
print "Initially, python reports that the lists are equal"
a[1][1]=[5]
b[1][1]=[5]
try:
  assert(a==b)
except AssertionError:
  print "After identical element assignments, the lists are not equal"
  print "a is now ", a
  print "b is now ", b
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the output on my system.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Initially, python reports that the lists are equal
After identical element assignments, the lists are not equal
a is now  [[[1, 2], [1, 2]], [[1, 2], [5]]]
b is now  [[[1, 2], [5]], [[1, 2], [5]]]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This seems contrary to one of my fundamental expectations, namely that
objects which compare equally must remain equal after identical
operations.  I think what must be going on is that the 'b' list
contains replicated references instead of copies of [range(1,3)]*2 .
IMO, python's == operator should detect this difference in list
structure since it leads to different behavior under element
assignments.

Mike Ellis



From aleax at mac.com  Thu Jun  1 17:15:21 2006
From: aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:15:21 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>

<michael.f.ellis at gmail.com> wrote:
   ...
> operations.  I think what must be going on is that the 'b' list
> contains replicated references instead of copies of [range(1,3)]*2 .

Right.

> IMO, python's == operator should detect this difference in list
> structure since it leads to different behavior under element
> assignments.

Wrong; equality does not imply any check on identity.  You can consider
the definition of "list A equals list B" as:

-- len(A) == len(B), AND,
-- for each valid index i, A[i] == B[i]

This is an extremely natural definition of "equality" for containers:
"they have EQUAL items" [[in the same order, for containers for which
order is relevant]].  Nowhere in this extremely natural definition does
the IDENTITY of the items come into play.

Therefore, your expectations about the effects of item alterations (for
alterable items) are ill-founded.

Try concisely expressing your "should" -- constructively, as pseudocode
that one could use to check for your "strengthened equality", not in
abstract terms of constraints -- and if (as I strongly suspect) you
cannot find a definition that is as simple, concise and natural as the
two-liner above, this might help convince you that your desired
definition would NOT be the most obvious, natural and fundamental, and
therefore would not be appropriate to pick as part of the language's
core.  Indeed, it's an interesting problem to code up, if one wants any
generality (for example, identity of immutable items _whose items or
attributes are in turn immutable_ probably should not matter even for
your "strengthened" equality... but that's pretty hard to express!-).


Alex
 


From michael.f.ellis at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 18:00:18 2006
From: michael.f.ellis at gmail.com (michael.f.ellis at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 09:00:18 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Hi Alex,
With all due respect to your well-deserved standing in the Python
community, I'm not convinced that equality shouldn't imply invariance
under identical operations.

Perhaps the most fundamental notion is mathematics is that the left and
right sides of an equation remain identical after any operation applied
to both sides.  Our experience of the physical world is similar.  If I
make identical modifications to the engines of two identical
automobiles, I expect the difference in performance to be identical.
If my expectation is met, I would assert that either the two vehicles
were not identical to begin with or that my modifications were not
performed identically.

As to containers,  would you say that envelope containing five $100
bills is the same as an envelope containing a single $100 bill and 4
xerox copies of it? If so, I'd like to engage in some envelope
exchanges with you :-)

As I see it, reference copying is a very useful performance and memory
optimization.  But I don't think it should undermine the validity of
assert(a==b) as a predictor of invariance under identical operations.

Cheers,
Mike Ellis


Alex Martelli wrote:
> <michael.f.ellis at gmail.com> wrote:
> Wrong; equality does not imply any check on identity.  You can consider
> the definition of "list A equals list B" as:
>
> -- len(A) == len(B), AND,
> -- for each valid index i, A[i] == B[i]
>
> This is an extremely natural definition of "equality" for containers:
> "they have EQUAL items" [[in the same order, for containers for which
> order is relevant]].  Nowhere in this extremely natural definition does
> the IDENTITY of the items come into play.



From michael.f.ellis at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 18:05:04 2006
From: michael.f.ellis at gmail.com (michael.f.ellis at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 09:05:04 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149177904.203543.285010@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

oops! last sentence of 2nd paragraph in previous message should read
"If my expectation is NOT met ..."



From tim.peters at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 18:23:07 2006
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:23:07 -0400
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae0606010923o5f870b80x70f1a9d95e589cf6@mail.gmail.com>

[michael.f.ellis at gmail.com]
> ...
> As I see it, reference copying is a very useful performance and memory
> optimization.  But I don't think it should undermine the validity of
> assert(a==b) as a predictor of invariance under identical operations.

So, as Alex said last time,

    Try concisely expressing your "should" -- constructively, as
    pseudocode that one could use to check for your "strengthened
    equality", not in abstract terms of constraints -- and if (as I
    strongly suspect) you cannot find a definition that is as simple,
    concise and natural as the two-liner above, this might help
    convince you that your desired definition would NOT be the most
    obvious, natural and fundamental, and therefore would not be
    appropriate to pick as part of the language's core.  Indeed,
    it's an interesting problem to code up, if one wants any generality
    (for example, identity of immutable items _whose items or
    attributes are in turn immutable_ probably should not matter even
    for your "strengthened" equality... but that's pretty hard to express!-).

So try that.  In reality, you can either learn to change your
expectations, or avoid virtually all object-oriented programming
languages.  Object identity is generally fundamental to the intended
semantics of such languages, not just an optimization.

Think about a simpler case:

    a = [1]
    b = a
    assert(a == b)
    a.remove(1)
    b.remove(1)

Oops.  The last line dies with an exception, despite that a==b at the
third statement and that ".remove(1)" is applied to both a and b.  If
you think a should not equal b at the third statement "because" of
this, you're going to lead a life of increasing but needless despair
;-)


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Thu Jun  1 18:23:09 2006
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:23:09 -0500
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447F146D.9070903@tim.thechases.com>

> As to containers,  would you say that envelope containing five $100
> bills is the same as an envelope containing a single $100 bill and 4
> xerox copies of it? If so, I'd like to engage in some envelope
> exchanges with you :-)

if len(set([bill.serialnumber for bill in envelope])) != 
len(envelope): refuseMichaelsExchange()

Though the way references work, you would have an envelope 
containing only  5 slips of paper that all say "I have a $100 
bill"...

:)

-tkc





From fredrik at pythonware.com  Thu Jun  1 18:25:32 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 18:25:32 +0200
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com><1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5n4dt$ln1$1@sea.gmane.org>

michael.f.ellis at gmail.com wrote:

> As to containers,  would you say that envelope containing five $100
> bills is the same as an envelope containing a single $100 bill and 4
> xerox copies of it? If so, I'd like to engage in some envelope
> exchanges with you :-)

if you spent as much time *learning* stuff as you spend making up irrelevant examples,
you might end up learning how assignments, repeat operators, and references work in
Python.

it's only hard to understand if you don't want to understand it.

</F> 





From scott.daniels at acm.org  Thu Jun  1 18:45:09 2006
From: scott.daniels at acm.org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 09:45:09 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447f152f@nntp0.pdx.net>

michael.f.ellis at gmail.com wrote:

> As to containers,  would you say that envelope containing five $100
> bills is the same as an envelope containing a single $100 bill and 4
> xerox copies of it? If so, I'd like to engage in some envelope
> exchanges with you :-)

Would you say that envelope containing five $100 bills is equal to
an envelope containing five $100 bills with different serial numbers?

--Scott David Daniels
scott.daniels at acm.org


From michael.f.ellis at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 22:40:34 2006
From: michael.f.ellis at gmail.com (michael.f.ellis at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 13:40:34 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <447f152f@nntp0.pdx.net>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<447f152f@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <1149194434.528648.148860@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>

Yes (unless I was testing the assertion that the second envelope did
not contain counterfeits of the first)

Scott David Daniels wrote:
> Would you say that envelope containing five $100 bills is equal to
> an envelope containing five $100 bills with different serial numbers?



From slawomir.nowaczyk.847 at student.lu.se  Thu Jun  1 23:56:10 2006
From: slawomir.nowaczyk.847 at student.lu.se (Slawomir Nowaczyk)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 23:56:10 +0200
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1149194434.528648.148860@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
References: <447f152f@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<1149194434.528648.148860@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20060601234417.FC2E.SLAWOMIR.NOWACZYK.847@student.lu.se>

On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:40:34 -0700
michael.f.ellis at gmail.com wrote:

#> Scott David Daniels wrote:
#> > Would you say that envelope containing five $100 bills is equal to
#> > an envelope containing five $100 bills with different serial numbers?

#> Yes (unless I was testing the assertion that the second envelope did
#> not contain counterfeits of the first)

So, what if Bank of America later decided that bills with serial
numbers containing "7" are no longer valid?

In other word, *if* you assume equality must be preserved by future
modifications, than no two different (modifiable) objects can ever be
really equal.

-- 
 Best wishes,
   Slawomir Nowaczyk
     ( Slawomir.Nowaczyk at cs.lth.se )

I believe that math illiteracy affects 7 out of every 5 people.



From aleax at mac.com  Fri Jun  2 04:16:16 2006
From: aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 19:16:16 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<447f152f@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<1149194434.528648.148860@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6434.1149199917.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1hg9onn.p25evr18a09f9N%aleax@mac.com>

Slawomir Nowaczyk <slawomir.nowaczyk.847 at student.lu.se> wrote:

> On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:40:34 -0700
> michael.f.ellis at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> #> Scott David Daniels wrote:
> #> > Would you say that envelope containing five $100 bills is equal to
> #> > an envelope containing five $100 bills with different serial numbers?
> 
> #> Yes (unless I was testing the assertion that the second envelope did
> #> not contain counterfeits of the first)
> 
> So, what if Bank of America later decided that bills with serial
> numbers containing "7" are no longer valid?

Then Wachowia would no doubt be happy to take my business away from
BoA;-).

I suspect you believe BoA is some kind of "official" body -- it isn't,
just like Deutschebank is not one in Germany (rather, Bundesbank is).

Just to share some tidbits (about which, as an Italian now living
between San Francisco and San Jose, I'm sort of proud of...!-)...:

Bank of America is a private bank, founded in San Francisco more than
100 years ago by an Italian-American guy (Amadeo Giannini, born in San
Jose, CA, but to Italian-born parents) as "Bank of Italy", then renamed
in 1930 in part because the Italian State bank "Banca d'Italia"
objected.  It rose to prominence right after the SF earthquake of 100
years ago, by opening and staffing a temporary branch to ensure
depositors could access their money when they most needed it, while most
other banks were staying closed.

 
> In other word, *if* you assume equality must be preserved by future
> modifications, than no two different (modifiable) objects can ever be
> really equal.

Yes, apart from the (slight and understandable!) mistake about BoA's
role, this is an excellent example.  Here, a global change (to the rule
about what banknotes are "equal" to each other, by making some of them
invalid and thus unequal to others) perturbs Michaels' desired "strong
equality definition" -- to preserve it, equality must degenerate to
identity.  A Python example would be a change to the default encoding
(not officially supported but achievable through a reload(sys), hint;-)
which could easily make a bytestring equal, or not, to a Unicode string!


Alex


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Jun  2 19:07:10 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 10:07:10 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1149194434.528648.148860@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6434.1149199917.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1hg9onn.p25evr18a09f9N%aleax@mac.com>
Message-ID: <e5pr7u$3g0$1@panix3.panix.com>

In article <1hg9onn.p25evr18a09f9N%aleax at mac.com>,
Alex Martelli <aleax at mac.com> wrote:
>
>Just to share some tidbits (about which, as an Italian now living
>between San Francisco and San Jose, I'm sort of proud of...!-)...:
>
>Bank of America is a private bank, founded in San Francisco more than
>100 years ago by an Italian-American guy (Amadeo Giannini, born in San
>Jose, CA, but to Italian-born parents) as "Bank of Italy", then renamed
>in 1930 in part because the Italian State bank "Banca d'Italia"
>objected.  It rose to prominence right after the SF earthquake of 100
>years ago, by opening and staffing a temporary branch to ensure
>depositors could access their money when they most needed it, while most
>other banks were staying closed.

Except, of course, that BofA doesn't exist anymore.  Oh, the *name*
does, but what's now called BofA is simply the current name of the bank
that acquired BofA.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped
right there."  --Steve Gonedes


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Jun  2 20:33:44 2006
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 14:33:44 -0400
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com><1149194434.528648.148860@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com><mailman.6434.1149199917.27775.python-list@python.org><1hg9onn.p25evr18a09f9N%aleax@mac.com>
	<e5pr7u$3g0$1@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <e5q0a8$pmo$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Aahz" <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote in message 
news:e5pr7u$3g0$1 at panix3.panix.com...
> Except, of course, that BofA doesn't exist anymore.  Oh, the *name*
> does, but what's now called BofA is simply the current name of the bank
> that acquired BofA.

In Pythonese, they performed

SomeBank.extend(BofA)
BofA = SomeBank
del SomeBank

so that id(BofA) is now what id(SomeBank) was, not what was id(the BofA I 
grew up with).  The name was definitely part of of the acquisition value.

;-)

OT, but not completely irrelevant to a discussion of names, ids, and 
values.

Terry Jan Reedy





From hancock at anansispaceworks.com  Fri Jun  2 21:11:11 2006
From: hancock at anansispaceworks.com (Terry Hancock)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:11:11 +0000
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1hg9onn.p25evr18a09f9N%aleax@mac.com>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<447f152f@nntp0.pdx.net>	<1149194434.528648.148860@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>	<mailman.6434.1149199917.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1hg9onn.p25evr18a09f9N%aleax@mac.com>
Message-ID: <44808D4F.9070001@anansispaceworks.com>

Alex Martelli wrote:
>  Slawomir Nowaczyk <slawomir.nowaczyk.847 at student.lu.se> wrote:
> > On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:40:34 -0700 michael.f.ellis at gmail.com wrote:
> > #> Scott David Daniels wrote: #> > Would you say that envelope
> > containing five $100 bills is equal to #> > an envelope containing
> > five $100 bills with different serial numbers?
> >
> > #> Yes (unless I was testing the assertion that the second envelope
> > did #> not contain counterfeits of the first)
> >
> > So, what if Bank of America later decided that bills with serial
> > numbers containing "7" are no longer valid?
>
>  Then Wachowia would no doubt be happy to take my business away from
>  BoA;-).
>
>  I suspect you believe BoA is some kind of "official" body -- it
>  isn't, just like Deutschebank is not one in Germany (rather,
>  Bundesbank is).

Yeah, it's a funny mistake, but what he meant, is what if the
US Treasury Department declared bills with serial numbers
containing "7" invalid.  That would indeed complete the analogy.

And it's a sharp example -- because money is conceived of as
fungible, one $100 is as good as another, so two $100 bills
compare as equal, whether they are equal or not.

Of course, the counter argument is that it's not unlike  counting
a reflection of a $100 bill as another $100 and concluding that
you have $200 (you need two mirrors to double your money,
technically ;-)).

I don't think there's any way to make it "more logical" -- it's
going to break somewhere no matter what assumption you
make, so you just have to learn what's really going on in order
to avoid confusion.

Cheers,
Terry



-- 
Terry Hancock (hancock at AnansiSpaceworks.com)
Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com



From jes at nl.demon.net  Thu Jun  1 19:13:24 2006
From: jes at nl.demon.net (Jim Segrave)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 17:13:24 -0000
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <127u81kdf70ch8d@corp.supernews.com>

In article <1149177617.985251.74560 at c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
 <michael.f.ellis at gmail.com> wrote:
>Hi Alex,
>With all due respect to your well-deserved standing in the Python
>community, I'm not convinced that equality shouldn't imply invariance
>under identical operations.
>
>Perhaps the most fundamental notion is mathematics is that the left and
>right sides of an equation remain identical after any operation applied
>to both sides.  Our experience of the physical world is similar.  If I
>make identical modifications to the engines of two identical
>automobiles, I expect the difference in performance to be identical.
>If my expectation is met, I would assert that either the two vehicles
>were not identical to begin with or that my modifications were not
>performed identically.
>
>As to containers,  would you say that envelope containing five $100
>bills is the same as an envelope containing a single $100 bill and 4
>xerox copies of it? If so, I'd like to engage in some envelope
>exchanges with you :-)
>
>As I see it, reference copying is a very useful performance and memory
>optimization.  But I don't think it should undermine the validity of
>assert(a==b) as a predictor of invariance under identical operations.

I think you end up with a totally unwieldy definition of '==' for
containers, since you have to check for _identical_ aliasing to
whatever depth it might occur, and, if you insist on equality
modeling the physical world, two lists can only be equal if:

for each corresponding element in the two lists, either the element is
a reference to the same underlying object or the corresponding
elements are references to objects which do not have and never will
have other references bound to them.

For example:

ra = ['a', 'a']
rb = ['b', 'b']

l1 = [ra, rb]
l2 = [ra, rb]

This will be equal by your definition and will preserve equality over
identical operations on l1 and l2

l3 = [ ['a', 'b'], ['a', 'b']]

This list will be identical, under your definition, so long as we
don't have anyone doing anything to the references ra or rb. Your
equality test has to claim that l1 and l3 are not equal, since ra
could be changed and that's not an operation on l1 or l3

This also leaves out the complexity of analysiing nested structures -
if you have a tuple, containing tuples which contain lists, then are
those top level tuples 'equal' if there are aliases in the lists? How
many levels deep should an equality test go? 

Does the more common test, to see if the elements of a sequence are
identical at the time of comparision need a new operator or hand
coding, since most of the time programmers aren't interested in future
equality or not of the structures.

-- 
Jim Segrave           (jes at jes-2.demon.nl)



From michael.f.ellis at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 20:32:15 2006
From: michael.f.ellis at gmail.com (michael.f.ellis at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 11:32:15 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <127u81kdf70ch8d@corp.supernews.com>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<127u81kdf70ch8d@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <1149186735.650036.62670@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Yes. You stated it quite precisely.  I believe l1==l2 should always
return True and l1==l3 should always be False. (unless l3 is reassigned
as l3=l1).  Your idea of a separate operator for 'all elements have
numerically equal values at the moment of comparision' is a good one.
For want of a better name, it could be called DeepCopyEquality(a,b) and
would be equivalent to a byte-by-byte comparison of two distinct
regions in memory created by a deep copies of a and b.

Cheers,
Mike

Jim Segrave wrote:
> In article <1149177617.985251.74560 at c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
>  <michael.f.ellis at gmail.com> wrote:
> >Hi Alex,
> >With all due respect to your well-deserved standing in the Python
> >community, I'm not convinced that equality shouldn't imply invariance
> >under identical operations.
> >
> >Perhaps the most fundamental notion is mathematics is that the left and
> >right sides of an equation remain identical after any operation applied
> >to both sides.  Our experience of the physical world is similar.  If I
> >make identical modifications to the engines of two identical
> >automobiles, I expect the difference in performance to be identical.
> >If my expectation is met, I would assert that either the two vehicles
> >were not identical to begin with or that my modifications were not
> >performed identically.
> >
> >As to containers,  would you say that envelope containing five $100
> >bills is the same as an envelope containing a single $100 bill and 4
> >xerox copies of it? If so, I'd like to engage in some envelope
> >exchanges with you :-)
> >
> >As I see it, reference copying is a very useful performance and memory
> >optimization.  But I don't think it should undermine the validity of
> >assert(a==b) as a predictor of invariance under identical operations.
>
> I think you end up with a totally unwieldy definition of '==' for
> containers, since you have to check for _identical_ aliasing to
> whatever depth it might occur, and, if you insist on equality
> modeling the physical world, two lists can only be equal if:
>
> for each corresponding element in the two lists, either the element is
> a reference to the same underlying object or the corresponding
> elements are references to objects which do not have and never will
> have other references bound to them.
>
> For example:
>
> ra = ['a', 'a']
> rb = ['b', 'b']
>
> l1 = [ra, rb]
> l2 = [ra, rb]
>
> This will be equal by your definition and will preserve equality over
> identical operations on l1 and l2
>
> l3 = [ ['a', 'b'], ['a', 'b']]
>
> This list will be identical, under your definition, so long as we
> don't have anyone doing anything to the references ra or rb. Your
> equality test has to claim that l1 and l3 are not equal, since ra
> could be changed and that's not an operation on l1 or l3
>
> This also leaves out the complexity of analysiing nested structures -
> if you have a tuple, containing tuples which contain lists, then are
> those top level tuples 'equal' if there are aliases in the lists? How
> many levels deep should an equality test go?
>
> Does the more common test, to see if the elements of a sequence are
> identical at the time of comparision need a new operator or hand
> coding, since most of the time programmers aren't interested in future
> equality or not of the structures.
> 
> -- 
> Jim Segrave           (jes at jes-2.demon.nl)



From jes at nl.demon.net  Thu Jun  1 22:14:09 2006
From: jes at nl.demon.net (Jim Segrave)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:14:09 -0000
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<127u81kdf70ch8d@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149186735.650036.62670@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <127uikhii16hpf0@corp.supernews.com>

In article <1149186735.650036.62670 at i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
 <michael.f.ellis at gmail.com> wrote:
>Yes. You stated it quite precisely.  I believe l1==l2 should always
>return True and l1==l3 should always be False. (unless l3 is reassigned
>as l3=l1).  Your idea of a separate operator for 'all elements have
>numerically equal values at the moment of comparision' is a good one.
>For want of a better name, it could be called DeepCopyEquality(a,b) and
>would be equivalent to a byte-by-byte comparison of two distinct
>regions in memory created by a deep copies of a and b.

The operator which works at the moment of comaprision is already there
- that's what == does. 
If you really think there's a need for a comparision which includes
dealing with aliasing, then it seems to me a python module with a
set of functions for comparisions would make more sense. 



-- 
Jim Segrave           (jes at jes-2.demon.nl)



From steve at holdenweb.com  Mon Jun  5 13:44:20 2006
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:44:20 +0100
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1149186735.650036.62670@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<127u81kdf70ch8d@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149186735.650036.62670@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <44841914.7080701@holdenweb.com>

michael.f.ellis at gmail.com wrote:
> Yes. You stated it quite precisely.  I believe l1==l2 should always
> return True and l1==l3 should always be False. (unless l3 is reassigned
> as l3=l1).  Your idea of a separate operator for 'all elements have
> numerically equal values at the moment of comparision' is a good one.
> For want of a better name, it could be called DeepCopyEquality(a,b) and
> would be equivalent to a byte-by-byte comparison of two distinct
> regions in memory created by a deep copies of a and b.
> 
I suspect the word you are grasping for is "isomorphic", since your 
complaint appears to be that two non-isomorphic lists can compare as equal.

He then later said:
> Considering the number of new programmers who get bit by automatic
> coercion, I wish Dennis Ritchie had made some different choices when he
> designed C.  But then I doubt he ever dreamed it would become so wildly
> successful.
> 
So he designed it badly because he didn't anticipate its ubiquity? Give 
me a break. Every language designer regrets some of their decisions: 
it's almost a given for design of any kind, since one makes compromises 
without realising that they are compromises until usage reveals them.

> Being a curmudgeon purist I'd actually prefer it if Python raised a
> TypeError on float vs integer comparisons.
> 
That's taking purity just a little too far for my taste.

Looking at how this thread developed (if such an unedifying process can 
be described as "development") I hope you'll phrase future posts a 
little more carefully.

regards
  Steve
-- 
Steve Holden       +44 150 684 7255  +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC/Ltd          http://www.holdenweb.com
Love me, love my blog  http://holdenweb.blogspot.com
Recent Ramblings     http://del.icio.us/steve.holden



From michael.f.ellis at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 19:44:58 2006
From: michael.f.ellis at gmail.com (michael.f.ellis at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 10:44:58 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6417.1149178990.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149183898.338397.199070@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Hi Tim,
In your example, a & b are references to the same object.  I agree they
should compare equally.  But please note that a==b is True at every
point in your example, even after the ValueError raised by b.remove(1).
 That's good consistent behavior.

My original example is a little different.  a and b never referred to
the same object.  They were containers created by different expressions
with no object in common.  The problem arises because the overloaded *
operator makes row level copies of the lists in b.  There's nothing
wrong with that, but the fact remains that a and b are different in a
very significant way.

I agree with Alex that checking for this type of inequality is not a
trivial programming exercise.  It requires (at least) a parallel
recursion that counts references with the containers being compared .
At the same time, I know that much harder programming problems have
been solved.  Where I disagree with Alex is in the labeling of the
existing behavior as 'natural'.

Alternatively, it might make sense to disallow == for containers by
raising a TypeError although that would eliminate a largely useful
feature.

Realistically, I know that Python is unlikely to adopt either
alternative.  It would probably break a lot of existing code.   My
point in the original post was to raise what I felt was a useful topic
for discussion and to help others avoid a pitfall that cost me a couple
of hours of head-scratching.

By the way, I've been programming professionally for over 25 years and
have used at least 30 different languages.  During the past few years,
Python has become my language of choice for almost everything because
it helps me deliver more productivity and value to my clients.

Cheers,
Mike


Tim Peters wrote:
> Think about a simpler case:
>
>     a = [1]
>     b = a
>     assert(a == b)
>     a.remove(1)
>     b.remove(1)
>
> Oops.  The last line dies with an exception, despite that a==b at the
> third statement and that ".remove(1)" is applied to both a and b.



From aleax at mac.com  Fri Jun  2 04:16:15 2006
From: aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 19:16:15 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6417.1149178990.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149183898.338397.199070@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1hg9oed.gknalqf3jq8N%aleax@mac.com>

<michael.f.ellis at gmail.com> wrote:
   ...
> I agree with Alex that checking for this type of inequality is not a
> trivial programming exercise.  It requires (at least) a parallel

I'm not asking for ANY programming: I'm asking for a *straightforward
operational definition*.  If the concept which you hanker after is NOT
subject to a straightforward operational definition, then I would rule
out that said concept could POSSIBLY be "natural".

> Alternatively, it might make sense to disallow == for containers by
> raising a TypeError although that would eliminate a largely useful
> feature.

This may be the best example I've ever seen of Emerson's well-known
quote about foolish consistency -- except that I don't think this
behavior would be "consistent" (either wisely or foolishly) with
anything except a vague handwaving set of constraints whose
"naturalness" (assuming it's unfeasible to provide a good and
straightforward operational definition) is out of the question.


Alex


From kent at kentsjohnson.com  Thu Jun  1 20:45:56 2006
From: kent at kentsjohnson.com (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:45:56 -0400
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447f34ec$1_2@newspeer2.tds.net>

michael.f.ellis at gmail.com wrote:
> Hi Alex,
> With all due respect to your well-deserved standing in the Python
> community, I'm not convinced that equality shouldn't imply invariance
> under identical operations.
> 
> Perhaps the most fundamental notion is mathematics is that the left and
> right sides of an equation remain identical after any operation applied
> to both sides.  Our experience of the physical world is similar.  If I
> make identical modifications to the engines of two identical
> automobiles, I expect the difference in performance to be identical.
> If my expectation is met, I would assert that either the two vehicles
> were not identical to begin with or that my modifications were not
> performed identically.

But programming is not mathematics and assignment is not an equation. 
How about this:

In [1]: a=3.0

In [2]: b=3

In [3]: a==b
Out[3]: True

In [4]: a/2 == b/2
Out[4]: False

Kent


From michael.f.ellis at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 22:31:01 2006
From: michael.f.ellis at gmail.com (michael.f.ellis at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 13:31:01 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <447f34ec$1_2@newspeer2.tds.net>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<447f34ec$1_2@newspeer2.tds.net>
Message-ID: <1149193861.211385.141940@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Considering the number of new programmers who get bit by automatic
coercion, I wish Dennis Ritchie had made some different choices when he
designed C.  But then I doubt he ever dreamed it would become so wildly
successful.

Being a curmudgeon purist I'd actually prefer it if Python raised a
TypeError on float vs integer comparisons.

Cheers,
Mike

Kent Johnson wrote:
> michael.f.ellis at gmail.com wrote:
> > Hi Alex,
> > With all due respect to your well-deserved standing in the Python
> > community, I'm not convinced that equality shouldn't imply invariance
> > under identical operations.
> >
> > Perhaps the most fundamental notion is mathematics is that the left and
> > right sides of an equation remain identical after any operation applied
> > to both sides.  Our experience of the physical world is similar.  If I
> > make identical modifications to the engines of two identical
> > automobiles, I expect the difference in performance to be identical.
> > If my expectation is met, I would assert that either the two vehicles
> > were not identical to begin with or that my modifications were not
> > performed identically.
>
> But programming is not mathematics and assignment is not an equation.
> How about this:
>
> In [1]: a=3.0
>
> In [2]: b=3
>
> In [3]: a==b
> Out[3]: True
> 
> In [4]: a/2 == b/2
> Out[4]: False
> 
> Kent



From max at alcyone.com  Thu Jun  1 22:47:10 2006
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:47:10 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <6dKdnVnjh5LTz-LZnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>

michael.f.ellis at gmail.com wrote:

> With all due respect to your well-deserved standing in the Python
> community, I'm not convinced that equality shouldn't imply invariance
> under identical operations.

Doo you really want

	2 == 2.0

to be False?

-- 
Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
   Without victory there is no survival.
   -- Winston Churchill


From michael.f.ellis at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 23:57:49 2006
From: michael.f.ellis at gmail.com (michael.f.ellis at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 14:57:49 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <6dKdnVnjh5LTz-LZnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<6dKdnVnjh5LTz-LZnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <1149199069.871245.270330@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

Truthfully, I wouldn't mind it at all.  In Python, I frequently write
things like
   i == int(f)
or vice versa just to avoid subtle bugs that sometimes creep in when
later modifications to code change the original assumptions.

When working in C, I always set the compiler for maximum warnings and
do my damndest to make them all go away. In the long run, time spent on
rigorous coding always repays itself with interest in time saved
debugging.

Mike

Erik Max Francis wrote:
> michael.f.ellis at gmail.com wrote:
>
> > With all due respect to your well-deserved standing in the Python
> > community, I'm not convinced that equality shouldn't imply invariance
> > under identical operations.
>
> Doo you really want
>
> 	2 == 2.0
>
> to be False?
>
> --
> Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
> San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
>    Without victory there is no survival.
>    -- Winston Churchill



From maric at aristote.info  Thu Jun  1 23:54:51 2006
From: maric at aristote.info (Maric Michaud)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:54:51 +0200
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <200606012354.52702.maric@aristote.info>

Le Jeudi 01 Juin 2006 18:00, michael.f.ellis at gmail.com a ?crit?:
> Perhaps the most fundamental notion is mathematics is that the left and
> right sides of an equation remain identical after any operation applied
> to both sides.

IMHO, you are not aware that the '=' symbol of mathematics exists in python, 
it's the 'is' assertion.

a is b
and then, do what you want with a (or b), a is b remains True.

THIS is the meaning of expr1 = expr2, but in computer science, this is not as 
important as it is in pure logic (most languages do not even provide the 'is' 
assertion).

-- 
_____________

Maric Michaud
_____________

Aristote - www.aristote.info
3 place des tapis
69004 Lyon
Tel: +33 426 880 097


From michael.f.ellis at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 00:12:23 2006
From: michael.f.ellis at gmail.com (michael.f.ellis at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 15:12:23 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6431.1149198899.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149199942.955228.281950@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>

I believe that 'is' tests equality of reference, such that

>>> a = range(1,3)
>>> b = range(1,3)
>>> a is b
False

The 'is' operator tells you whether a and b refer to the same object.
What I've been discussing is whether == should test for "structural"
equality so that a and b remain equivalent under parallel mutations
(and also under single mutations to common references)

Cheers,
Mike

Maric Michaud wrote:
> Le Jeudi 01 Juin 2006 18:00, michael.f.ellis at gmail.com a ?crit :
> > Perhaps the most fundamental notion is mathematics is that the left and
> > right sides of an equation remain identical after any operation applied
> > to both sides.
>
> IMHO, you are not aware that the '=' symbol of mathematics exists in python,
> it's the 'is' assertion.
>
> a is b
> and then, do what you want with a (or b), a is b remains True.
>
> THIS is the meaning of expr1 = expr2, but in computer science, this is not as
> important as it is in pure logic (most languages do not even provide the 'is'
> assertion).
>
> --
> _____________
>
> Maric Michaud
> _____________
>
> Aristote - www.aristote.info
> 3 place des tapis
> 69004 Lyon
> Tel: +33 426 880 097



From slawomir.nowaczyk.847 at student.lu.se  Fri Jun  2 00:40:47 2006
From: slawomir.nowaczyk.847 at student.lu.se (Slawomir Nowaczyk)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 00:40:47 +0200
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1149199942.955228.281950@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.6431.1149198899.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149199942.955228.281950@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20060602002705.FC33.SLAWOMIR.NOWACZYK.847@student.lu.se>

On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:12:23 -0700
michael.f.ellis at gmail.com wrote:

#> I believe that 'is' tests equality of reference, such that
#> 
#> >>> a = range(1,3)
#> >>> b = range(1,3)
#> >>> a is b
#> False
#> 
#> The 'is' operator tells you whether a and b refer to the same object.
#> What I've been discussing is whether == should test for "structural"
#> equality so that a and b remain equivalent under parallel mutations
#> (and also under single mutations to common references)

What does "parallel mutations" mean? In particular, what should be the
results of each of the following three comparisons:

x, y, z = [1],[1],[1]
a, b = [x,y], [y,z]
c, d = [[1],[1]], [[1],[1]]
a == b
c == d
a[0].remove(1)
b[0].remove(1)
a == b

So, do I understand correctly that you would like first comparison
(a==b) to return "False" and second comparison (c==d) to return
"True"?

-- 
 Best wishes,
   Slawomir Nowaczyk
     ( Slawomir.Nowaczyk at cs.lth.se )

Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes
an annual free trip around the Sun.



From aleax at mac.com  Fri Jun  2 04:16:16 2006
From: aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 19:16:16 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6431.1149198899.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149199942.955228.281950@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6437.1149201651.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1hg9pbo.1oem3vh1ryksipN%aleax@mac.com>

Slawomir Nowaczyk <slawomir.nowaczyk.847 at student.lu.se> wrote:

> On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:12:23 -0700
> michael.f.ellis at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> #> I believe that 'is' tests equality of reference, such that
> #> 
> #> >>> a = range(1,3)
> #> >>> b = range(1,3)
> #> >>> a is b
> #> False
> #> 
> #> The 'is' operator tells you whether a and b refer to the same object.
> #> What I've been discussing is whether == should test for "structural"
> #> equality so that a and b remain equivalent under parallel mutations
> #> (and also under single mutations to common references)
> 
> What does "parallel mutations" mean? In particular, what should be the
> results of each of the following three comparisons:
> 
> x, y, z = [1],[1],[1]
> a, b = [x,y], [y,z]
> c, d = [[1],[1]], [[1],[1]]
> a == b
> c == d
> a[0].remove(1)
> b[0].remove(1)
> a == b
> 
> So, do I understand correctly that you would like first comparison
> (a==b) to return "False" and second comparison (c==d) to return
> "True"?

I sure hope not, since, e.g.:

ridiculous = c[0]

is not a "mutation" (so equality should still hold, right?), and then it
becomes weird to claim that

ridiculous.append('bah, humbug!')

is a "nonparallel mutation to" c and/or d.

In fact, I'm starting to wonder if by Michaels' requirement ANY
non-*IDENTICAL* containers (with non-identical mutable items) could EVER
be deemed "equal".  If he's arguing that "==" should mean exactly the
same as "is", that's even crazier than I had gauged so far.

But of course, since Michaels still refuses to provide simple,
straightforward operational definitions of what it IS that he wants, all
of this remains vague and ill-defined.  See *WHY* it's so important to
provide precision rather than just the handwaving he's given so far?


Alex


From slawomir.nowaczyk.847 at student.lu.se  Fri Jun  2 14:11:58 2006
From: slawomir.nowaczyk.847 at student.lu.se (Slawomir Nowaczyk)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 14:11:58 +0200
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1hg9pbo.1oem3vh1ryksipN%aleax@mac.com>
References: <mailman.6437.1149201651.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1hg9pbo.1oem3vh1ryksipN%aleax@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20060602140630.FC41.SLAWOMIR.NOWACZYK.847@student.lu.se>

On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 19:16:16 -0700
aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli) wrote:

#> > What does "parallel mutations" mean? In particular, what should be the
#> > results of each of the following three comparisons:
#> > 
#> > x, y, z = [1],[1],[1]
#> > a, b = [x,y], [y,z]
#> > c, d = [[1],[1]], [[1],[1]]
#> > a == b
#> > c == d
#> > a[0].remove(1)
#> > b[0].remove(1)
#> > a == b
#> > 
#> > So, do I understand correctly that you would like first comparison
#> > (a==b) to return "False" and second comparison (c==d) to return
#> > "True"?
#> 
#> I sure hope not,

So do I, but that's how I understood Michaels' words...

#> In fact, I'm starting to wonder if by Michaels' requirement ANY
#> non-*IDENTICAL* containers (with non-identical mutable items) could
#> EVER be deemed "equal". If he's arguing that "==" should mean
#> exactly the same as "is", that's even crazier than I had gauged so
#> far.

I think he explicitly said that "is" doesn't fulfill his requirements
either... but then, I am not sure as I do not understand what his
requirements actually are (they seem to make some sense for immutable
objects, but how should they generalise to mutable stuff I have no
idea).

PS. Thanks for explanation about Bank of America: I had no clue how it
works in realty, it just had a good name ;)

-- 
 Best wishes,
   Slawomir Nowaczyk
     ( Slawomir.Nowaczyk at cs.lth.se )

Java is clearly an example of a MOP (money-oriented programming)
  -- Alexander Stepanov



From maric at aristote.info  Fri Jun  2 10:27:11 2006
From: maric at aristote.info (Maric Michaud)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:27:11 +0200
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1149199942.955228.281950@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6431.1149198899.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149199942.955228.281950@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <200606021027.12616.maric@aristote.info>

Le Vendredi 02 Juin 2006 00:12, michael.f.ellis at gmail.com a ?crit?:
> I believe that 'is' tests equality of reference, such that
>
> >>> a = range(1,3)
> >>> b = range(1,3)
> >>> a is b
>
> False
>
> The 'is' operator tells you whether a and b refer to the same object.

Yeah ! That's it. And you proposed a definition of identity :
for all operator op, op(a) = op(b) => a = b
This is of poor use in real life where two thing are never identical, just 
comparable.

> What I've been discussing is whether == should test for "structural"
> equality so that a and b remain equivalent under parallel mutations
> (and also under single mutations to common references)

So you wanted a comparison opertor of twto sequence dafined like this :

seq1 == seq2 => for all e in seq1, seq2[seq1.index(e) *is* e

!!! this would not be very useful nor consistent I guess and prefer the one 
used in python :

seq1 == seq2 => for all e in seq1, seq2[seq1.index(e) == e

-- 
_____________

Maric Michaud
_____________

Aristote - www.aristote.info
3 place des tapis
69004 Lyon
Tel: +33 426 880 097


From aleax at mac.com  Fri Jun  2 04:16:14 2006
From: aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 19:16:14 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1hg9nl6.xivwcd7n0j5N%aleax@mac.com>

<michael.f.ellis at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Alex,
> With all due respect to your well-deserved standing in the Python
> community, I'm not convinced that equality shouldn't imply invariance
> under identical operations.

So, why aren't you satisfying my request?  Provide a simple concrete
definition of what your idea of equality WOULD behave like.  I notice
that your lack of response stands out like a sore thumb -- all you're
providing is a set of constraints you desire and a collection of
illfounded analogies and handwaving.  Traditional mathematics does not
support the concept of "change", nor the distinction between equality
and identity; the "real world" has no way to define what modifications
are "identical" except by their effects (if the results differ, either
the original equality was ill-posited or the modifications were not
"identical").  But the real world DOES have the concept of "performing
exactly the same sequence of operational steps", and, by THAT definition
of "equal modifications", then your assertion:

> make identical modifications to the engines of two identical
> automobiles, I expect the difference in performance to be identical.

is ill-founded -- or, rather, your *expectation* may be ill-founded.

Take two systems of any significant complexity that are similar enough
to be called "identical" by ALL observers (because trying to ascertain
the differences, if any, would inevitably perturb the systems
irretrievably by Heisenberg's effect -- i.e., there are no OBSERVABLE
differences, which by Occam's Razor requires you to posit the systems
are equal, because you cannot prove otherwise -- and entities must not
be multiplied beyond necessity, so supposing that "observably equal"
systems are indeed equal is Occam-compliant).

Now, perform "identical" (ditto) modifications: in the real world, due
to quantum effects, there WILL be sub-observable differences in what
you're doing to the first one and to the second one.  If the systems are
unstable to start with, they may well amplify those differences to
observable proportions -- and there you are: the effect of the "equal"
change on "equal" system may easily become observably unequal.
Philosophically, you may classify this as an "observation" of both
systems, which reasoning backwards lead you to posit that either the
systems were NOT equal to start with or the modifications weren't...
that is, IF you also posit determinism, which, as well we know, is an
unwarrantedly strong hypothesis for systems in which the differences at
quantum level matter.  Feel free to follow Einstein (and diverse
light-years away from the last few decades of physics) in positing that
there MUST exist "hidden variables" (unobservable except maybe in
destructive, irreversible ways) explaining the difference -- I'll stick
with the mainstream of physics and claim your expectation was badly
founded to start with.

I can debate epistemology with the best, but this is not really the
proper forum for this -- starting with the crucial distinction, what it
means, in mathematics OR in the real world, to state that two systems
are "equal but NOT identical"?  In the end, such debates tend to prove
rather futile and unproductive, however.

In the world of programming languages, we cut through the chase by
requesting *operational* (Brouwer-ian, mathematically speaking)
definitions.  Provide the *operational* definition of how you WANT
equality checking to work, contrast it with my simple two-lines one, and
THEN we can have a meaningful debate of which one is the correct one to
use in the core of a programming language that has the (blessing and
curse of) mutable data objects...


Alex


From hancock at anansispaceworks.com  Fri Jun  2 21:21:47 2006
From: hancock at anansispaceworks.com (Terry Hancock)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:21:47 +0000
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1hg9nl6.xivwcd7n0j5N%aleax@mac.com>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg9nl6.xivwcd7n0j5N%aleax@mac.com>
Message-ID: <44808FCB.1020206@anansispaceworks.com>

Alex Martelli wrote:
>  to be called "identical" by ALL observers (because trying to
>  ascertain the differences, if any, would inevitably perturb the
>  systems irretrievably by Heisenberg's effect

Not to detract from your point, but the "Heisenberg effect", if
you mean the "Heisenberg uncertainty principle" is much more
fundamental (and quantumly "spooky") than this.

You are merely talking about the observer disturbing the system
by the process of observation, which is a common problem, but
has nothing to do with Heisenberg, and AFAIK, doesn't really
have a name.  It's a normal application of classical physics.

I'm sorry to nitpick, it's just that it's one of those misconceptions
that never wants to die, like thinking that gravity is caused by
magnetism or the Earth's rotation, or that you can "get too close
and be 'sucked in' by a strong gravity field", or that things are
"weightless" in orbit, because they're "too far from the Earth's
gravity".

Cheers,
Terry

-- 
Terry Hancock (hancock at AnansiSpaceworks.com)
Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com



From michael.f.ellis at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 21:40:42 2006
From: michael.f.ellis at gmail.com (michael.f.ellis at gmail.com)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 12:40:42 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg9nl6.xivwcd7n0j5N%aleax@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1149277242.199765.213600@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

Perhaps a little background to my original post will defuse some of the
controversy.  While working during an airline flight, I ran into an
unexpected outcome from using the * replication operator to initialize
an array of lists.  When I modified a single element of the array an
entire column changed.  Having no reference books or internet access
available, I tried to understand what was going on by creating some
small arrays on the command line to see if there was a difference
between explicit initialization and initialization with range() and the
* operator.

The arrays looked identical when printed and a == b returned True. Yet
the arrays were clearly not equivalent because mutating the
corresponding elements produced different outcomes.  I put the problem
aside until the next day when I looked at it some more and and created
the example script I posted.  Just as I was about to hit the Send
button, I realized that the * operator must have been creating
references instead of copies.  And then I appended the now much debated
opinion that == should have detected the difference.

(As an aside, may I point out that Python In A Nutshell states on page
46 "The result of S*n or n*S is the concatenation of n copies of S". It
might be well to put a warning in a future edition that this is not
strictly the case.)

My viewpoint is that of a working professional software consultant.
I'm essentially a pragmatist with no strong 'religious' views about
languages and methodologies.  As I noted in an earlier reply, I don't
realistically expect Python to change the behavior of the == operator.
I do think that a problem arose when it was adopted from C and extended
to allow comparison of containers.  In C, you can use it to compare
integers, floats, and pointers and everyone understands that p==q does
not imply *p == *q.  Moreover, compilers issue warnings about
comparisons between different types.

Basically, I'm looking for simple diagnostic tools that make it easy to
understand what's really going on when code produces an unexpected
result.  A 'strengthened equivalence' operator, to use your terminology
would have been useful to me.

As to constructing pseudocode for such an operator, I've appended a
working script below.  The counterexamples and questions from Slawomir,
Maric, and Jim were really useful in sharpening my thinking about the
matter.  I'm sure there are many ways to break it.  For example, tuples
have no index method, so one would have to be written. Still, I hope it
will serve to move the discussion beyond terms like 'crazy' and
'handwaving' and 'ill-founded'.  I haven't used such perjoratives in
any of my posts and would appreciate the same courtesy.

Cheers,
Mike

'''
StrongEquality -- a first cut at the definition proposed by M. Ellis.
Author: Michael F. Ellis, Ellis & Grant, Inc.
'''

def indices(item,seq):
   '''Utility function that returns a list of indices where item occurs
in seq'''
   result=[]
   for i in xrange(len(seq)):
       try:
          result.append(i+seq[i:].index(item))
       except ValueError:
          return result

def StrongEquality(a,b):
     '''True if a and b are numerically and "structurally" equal'''
     if a is b: return True
     if a != b: return False
     ## At this point we know a and b have the same length and
     ## evaluate numerically equivalent.  We now need to figure out
     ## whether there are any references to identical objects in
non-corresponding
     ## positions of a & b (per Slawomir's example). We also need to
inspect
     ## a and b for non-matching patterns of identical references (per
my example)
     ida=[] ; idb=[]
     for i in xrange(len(a)):
         if a[i] is b[i]:
             continue
         if isinstance(a[i], (int, float, str)) and isinstance(b[i],
(int, float, str)):
             continue        ## we already know they're numerically
equal

         ida.append(id(a[i]))
         idb.append(id(b[i]))
         ## We know that ida[n] is not idb[n] for all n because we
omitted all
         ## cases where a is b.  Therefore Slawomir's example is
detected if
         ## any id appears in both lists.
         for n in ida:
             if n in idb: return False
         ## Next we test for my example.  I'm sure this can be coded
more
         ## more elegantly ...
         for j in xrange(len(ida)):
              if indices(ida[j],ida) != indices(idb[j],idb): return
False
         ## Lastly, recurse ...
         if not StrongEquality(a[i],b[i]): return False

     return True

if __name__=='__main__':
   ## Rudimentary test cases
   assert StrongEquality(1,1)
   assert not StrongEquality(0,1)

   ## Slawomir's example
   x, y, z = [1],[1],[1]
   a, b = [x,y], [y,z]
   c, d = [[1],[1]], [[1],[1]]
   assert StrongEquality(c,d)
   assert a == b
   assert not StrongEquality(a,b)

   ## My example
   a =[[[1,2],[1,2]],[[1,2],[1,2]]]
   b = [[range(1,3)]*2]*2
   assert a==b
   assert not StrongEquality(a,b)

   print "All tests ok."






Alex Martelli wrote:
> <michael.f.ellis at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Alex,
> > With all due respect to your well-deserved standing in the Python
> > community, I'm not convinced that equality shouldn't imply invariance
> > under identical operations.
>
> So, why aren't you satisfying my request?  Provide a simple concrete
> definition of what your idea of equality WOULD behave like.  I notice
> that your lack of response stands out like a sore thumb -- all you're
> providing is a set of constraints you desire and a collection of
> illfounded analogies and handwaving.  Traditional mathematics does not
> support the concept of "change", nor the distinction between equality
> and identity; the "real world" has no way to define what modifications
> are "identical" except by their effects (if the results differ, either
> the original equality was ill-posited or the modifications were not
> "identical").  But the real world DOES have the concept of "performing
> exactly the same sequence of operational steps", and, by THAT definition
> of "equal modifications", then your assertion:
>
> > make identical modifications to the engines of two identical
> > automobiles, I expect the difference in performance to be identical.
>
> is ill-founded -- or, rather, your *expectation* may be ill-founded.
>
> Take two systems of any significant complexity that are similar enough
> to be called "identical" by ALL observers (because trying to ascertain
> the differences, if any, would inevitably perturb the systems
> irretrievably by Heisenberg's effect -- i.e., there are no OBSERVABLE
> differences, which by Occam's Razor requires you to posit the systems
> are equal, because you cannot prove otherwise -- and entities must not
> be multiplied beyond necessity, so supposing that "observably equal"
> systems are indeed equal is Occam-compliant).
>
> Now, perform "identical" (ditto) modifications: in the real world, due
> to quantum effects, there WILL be sub-observable differences in what
> you're doing to the first one and to the second one.  If the systems are
> unstable to start with, they may well amplify those differences to
> observable proportions -- and there you are: the effect of the "equal"
> change on "equal" system may easily become observably unequal.
> Philosophically, you may classify this as an "observation" of both
> systems, which reasoning backwards lead you to posit that either the
> systems were NOT equal to start with or the modifications weren't...
> that is, IF you also posit determinism, which, as well we know, is an
> unwarrantedly strong hypothesis for systems in which the differences at
> quantum level matter.  Feel free to follow Einstein (and diverse
> light-years away from the last few decades of physics) in positing that
> there MUST exist "hidden variables" (unobservable except maybe in
> destructive, irreversible ways) explaining the difference -- I'll stick
> with the mainstream of physics and claim your expectation was badly
> founded to start with.
>
> I can debate epistemology with the best, but this is not really the
> proper forum for this -- starting with the crucial distinction, what it
> means, in mathematics OR in the real world, to state that two systems
> are "equal but NOT identical"?  In the end, such debates tend to prove
> rather futile and unproductive, however.
>
> In the world of programming languages, we cut through the chase by
> requesting *operational* (Brouwer-ian, mathematically speaking)
> definitions.  Provide the *operational* definition of how you WANT
> equality checking to work, contrast it with my simple two-lines one, and
> THEN we can have a meaningful debate of which one is the correct one to
> use in the core of a programming language that has the (blessing and
> curse of) mutable data objects...
> 
> 
> Alex



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Jun  3 03:56:22 2006
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 21:56:22 -0400
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com><1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com><1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com><1hg9nl6.xivwcd7n0j5N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149277242.199765.213600@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5qq87$2ai$1@sea.gmane.org>


<michael.f.ellis at gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1149277242.199765.213600 at g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> (As an aside, may I point out that Python In A Nutshell states on page
> 46 "The result of S*n or n*S is the concatenation of n copies of S".

It would be more exact to say that S*n is [] extended with S  n times, 
which makes it clear that 0*S == S*0 == [] and which avoids the apparently 
misleading word 'copy'.  I presume the C implementation is the equivalent 
of

def __mul__(inlist, times):
    result = []
    for i in range(times):
        result.extend(inlist)
    return result

Or one could say that the result *is the same as* (not *is*) the 
concatenation of n *shallow* copies of S.  'Shallow' means that each copy 
of S would have the same *content* (at the id level) as S, so that the 
result would contain the content of S n times, which is to say, when len(S) 
== 1, n slots with each slot bound to the *identical* content of S.

When the content is immutable, the identicaliy does not matter.  When it 
*is* mutable, it does.

> It  might be well to put a warning in a future edition that this is not
> strictly the case.)

Did you mean anything else by 'not strictly the case'?

Terry Jan Reedy






From aleax at mac.com  Sat Jun  3 04:08:48 2006
From: aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 19:08:48 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg9nl6.xivwcd7n0j5N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149277242.199765.213600@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1hgbhhi.mcrge51cyj2isN%aleax@mac.com>

<michael.f.ellis at gmail.com> wrote:
   ...
> (As an aside, may I point out that Python In A Nutshell states on page
> 46 "The result of S*n or n*S is the concatenation of n copies of S". It
> might be well to put a warning in a future edition that this is not
> strictly the case.)

Can you give me an example where, say, for a sequence S,

x = S * 3

is not structurally the same as

x = copy.copy(S) + copy.copy(S) + copy.copy(S)

...?  That is, where the "* 3" on a sequence is NOT the concatenation of
three copies (ordinary copies, of course!) of that sequence?  I don't
think you can... and I can't repeatedly explain or point to the
distinction between normal, ordinary, shallow copies on one side, and
"deep copies" on the other, every single time in which that distinction
MIGHT be relevant (because some reader might not be aware of it); such
endless repetition would bloat the Nutshell totally away from its role
as a CONCISE desktop reference, and seriously hamper its usefulness
(particularly by DESTROYING any trace of usefulness for anybody who's
finally *GOT* this crucial bit, but not just in that way).


> languages and methodologies.  As I noted in an earlier reply, I don't
> realistically expect Python to change the behavior of the == operator.

Then you might have avoided trying to convince anybody, or even trying
to IMPLY, that in an ideal version of Python == *SHOULD* behave your way
-- Python's semantics *ARE* entirely up for rediscussion at the moment,
with an eye on the future "Python 3000" release, so this is one of the
very rare periods of the history of the language where backwards
incompatibility of a potential change is _NOT_ a blocking point.

By asserting that your version of == would be "more natural", and trying
to defend that assertion by vague handwaving references to maths and
"real world", you managed to entirely shift MY mindstate (and possibly
that of several other discussants) into one of total and absolute
opposition to the proposal -- having by now spent considerable time and
energy pondering and debating the issue, I am now entirely convinced
that a language with such an == operator instead of Python's current one
would be such a total, unadulterated disaster that I would refuse to use
that language, no matter what other "good" features it might present to
me.  I've walked away from great jobs, just because they would have
required me to use some technology I just could not stand, more than
once already in my life: and this IS how strongly (and negatively) I
feel about your claim that, for built-in ==, your semantics would be in
any way preferable to Python's.

By managing to thus focus my mindset (and make me spend my energy and
time) in opposition to your claims of "more natural", you have at least
managed to ensure that I will not now lend any scrap of help or support
to your debugging needs.  If you were as pragmatic as you claim to be,
this kind of consideration WOULD have weighed highly in your choices.

I.ie., if you had WANTED to attract any such support and help, a
completely different attitude than that "most natural" claim would have
been ENORMOUSLY more productive -- and your continuing attempts to
debate that issue aren't helping AT ALL either:

> I do think that a problem arose when it was adopted from C and extended
> to allow comparison of containers.  In C, you can use it to compare
> integers, floats, and pointers and everyone understands that p==q does
> not imply *p == *q.

If that is so, then everyone is utterly, totally, entirely, horribly
*WRONG*, because, in C, p==q ***DOES*** imply *p == *q (whenever p --
and by consequence q, given equality -- may legitimately be
dereferenced: p == q == 0 does not imply anything about *p and/or *q,
which may produce random results, crash the process, or whatever -- of
course).

You no doubt meant to say something entirely different from what you
ACTUALLY said, but I respectfully suggest you spare your breath rather
than keep trying to defend an indefensible position.

I do NOT agree, and I cannot imagine any state of the world that would
get me to agree, with your claim that "a problem arose" by allowing
equality comparison of containers in Python (many other languages allow
such comparisons, BTW; I would consider it a horrible wart if a language
claiming to be "higher level" did NOT).  That you're "supporting" (HA!)
your absurd claim with an equally absurd (and obviously, wholly false,
unfounded, and misplaced) claim about C pointers doesn't "help", of
course, but even perfectly accurate claims about C (or machine code, or
Cobol, or RPG...) would be pretty much uninteresting and irrelevant.

> Moreover, compilers issue warnings about
> comparisons between different types.

Some do, some don't, depending on the case -- e.g., I do not believe
that even with -Wall (or the equivalent setting) any C compiler whines
about EQUALITY comparisons of signed and unsigned integers (as well they
shouldn't, of course)!

And, just as of course, this umpteenth side-path you're introducing has
really nothing to do with the case, since when you're comparing two
lists-containing-lists which are equal by Python's rules but according
to your original claims about what's "more natural" ``should not'' be,
you ARE anyway comparing object of equal types.

> Basically, I'm looking for simple diagnostic tools that make it easy to
> understand what's really going on when code produces an unexpected
> result.  A 'strengthened equivalence' operator, to use your terminology
> would have been useful to me.

A *FUNCTION* performing such checks in a debugging and diagnostics
package would have been -- and if you hadn't pushed me to spend so much
time and energy defending Python's design choices against your claims
that other choices would be "more natural", you might have gotten help
and support in developing it.  But you chose to make ill-founded claims
of "more natural", and therefore you got a flamewar instead: your
choice.

> will serve to move the discussion beyond terms like 'crazy' and
> 'handwaving' and 'ill-founded'.  I haven't used such perjoratives in
> any of my posts and would appreciate the same courtesy.

You claimed that Python's semantics are "contrary to one of my
fundamental expectations", "an oddity", resulting only (you said in your
second post) from a "performance and memory optimization", and tried to
justify this severe criticism of Python by vague (i..e, "handwaving")
appeals to analogies with "maths" and "the real world".

I do not believe that such scathing criticism had any sound foundations,
nor that calling it "ill-founded" is anything but a fittingly accurate
description: and a language where the == operator DID satisfy the
constraints you claimed to desire for *THE EQUALITY OPERATOR ITSELF* (as
opposed to, for some helper/checker function in a separate module for
checking and debugging) would be a crazy one indeed.  If my opinions
that, I believe, accurately reflect the facts of the case, sound
"pejorative" to you, well, that's not a matter of choice of words on my
part, as much as of your choice of what to express in the first place.

Take your recent claim that in C "everyone understands that p==q does
not imply *p == *q"; which of the many ("pejorative") adjectives I
tagged your assertion with do you think are inaccurate or inappropriate?
I called it wrong, absurd, false, unfounded, and misplaced, and seasoned
the mix with a choice of adverbs including "utterly" and "horribly".  It
appears to me that each of these adjectives and adverbs is appropriate
and accurate (though it's repetitious on my part to use them all, that
repetition does convey the intensity of my opinions in the matter).

This is a factual issue where it's easy to defend strongly held opinions
(which may be checked against "facts"); in matters of "should" (what
semantics "should" a certain language construct HAVE, in order to be
most natural, simplest, and most useful -- quite apart from any issues
of optimization) such ease is, alas, not given... but the fact that
veryfying clashing opinons about what "should" be the case is way harder
than opinions easily checkable against "facts", does not mean that the
"should"'s (which are even more important, potentially, in their effect
on future language design!) are any less important -- on the contrary.


I do not believe I am going to follow this thread any more; I wish you
best of luck in your future endeavors -- and, if you can get back to
being the pragmatist that you claim to be, perhaps in the future you may
chose to express your debugging needs and desiderata in ways that
dispose the experts on some give technology to help and support you,
rather than to fight against the damage which, they opine, it would
cause to the future of that technology if certain ("crazy") suggestions
were to be part of it.


Alex


From anton.vredegoor at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 07:36:37 2006
From: anton.vredegoor at gmail.com (anton.vredegoor at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 07:36:37 +0200
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1hgbhhi.mcrge51cyj2isN%aleax@mac.com>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg9nl6.xivwcd7n0j5N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149277242.199765.213600@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<1hgbhhi.mcrge51cyj2isN%aleax@mac.com>
Message-ID: <e5r74t$d32$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>

Alex Martelli wrote:

[snip]

Can somebody please shut down this bot? I think it's running out of 
control. It seems to be unable to understand that "don't be evil" might 
be good when you're small (at least it's not very bad) but that it 
becomes distinctly evil when you're big.

What is good when you're big? I really don't know and I think there's 
even not many other people who do. But simply forbidding things that are 
not precisely definable -the way mathematicians have been doing before 
physicists shook them out of it- seems to do more harm than good.

In my opinion it looks like there is a path from rigid rule adherence to 
slowly accepting more doubt and inconsistencies -because we're all 
adults here- and this has something to do with letting go of things like 
childish adherence to static typing and confusion between equality and 
identity.

Let me qualify that last paragraph before anyone concludes I have become 
disfunctional too and will lead everyone to their destruction.

There seem to always be certain unclear parts in a programming language 
and people are constantly trying out new structures in order to map some 
new territory. I remember sets, generators and metaclasses. Only after 
people noticing problems (don't modify the thing you're iterating over) 
ways are found to solve them (you can if you put everything back just at 
the right moment) and finally these ways are condensed into officially 
endorsed coding practices. Now we're struggling with immutability and 
sequences. They're not a problem if you know what you're doing, but what 
exactly is it that those who know what they're doing do? It indicates 
that maybe it's the birth of a new language construct.

But why should it stop there? I expect a certain openness and 
willingness to discuss controversial matters from a community even if it 
were only to educate newcomers. But it might be the case that such 
willingness to accept doubt, without it turning into actively seeking it 
-that seems to be foolish, but who am I to judge even that- is what 
makes it possible to develop higher language and cognitive structures.

Anton

'even if it means turning into lisp before moving on'


From aleax at mac.com  Sat Jun  3 08:11:37 2006
From: aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 23:11:37 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg9nl6.xivwcd7n0j5N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149277242.199765.213600@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<1hgbhhi.mcrge51cyj2isN%aleax@mac.com>
	<e5r74t$d32$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
Message-ID: <1hgbu61.1gtkkjh1aca3i8N%aleax@mac.com>

<anton.vredegoor at gmail.com> wrote:

> Alex Martelli wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Can somebody please shut down this bot? I think it's running out of 

Much as you might love for somebody to "shut me down", that
(unfortunately, no doubt, from your viewpoint) is quite unlikely to
happen.  Although "making predictions is always difficult, especially
about the future", the most likely course of events is that I shall
continue for a while to survive, probably in tolerable health.

BTW, and for your information: in modern Western society, publically
wishing for some adversary's death is often considered somewhat uncouth
and rude, except perhaps in times of war or similar extremities. Being
aware of such social niceties and conventions may help: even were I to
wish that somebody crushed you underfoot like the worm you are, I would
avoid expressing such a wish in public, and likely in private too.


Alex


From anton.vredegoor at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 09:06:39 2006
From: anton.vredegoor at gmail.com (anton.vredegoor at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 09:06:39 +0200
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1hgbu61.1gtkkjh1aca3i8N%aleax@mac.com>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg9nl6.xivwcd7n0j5N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149277242.199765.213600@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<1hgbhhi.mcrge51cyj2isN%aleax@mac.com>
	<e5r74t$d32$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<1hgbu61.1gtkkjh1aca3i8N%aleax@mac.com>
Message-ID: <e5rcdf$2kp$1@news4.zwoll1.ov.home.nl>

Alex Martelli wrote:

> <anton.vredegoor at gmail.com> wrote:

>> Can somebody please shut down this bot? I think it's running out of 
> 
> Much as you might love for somebody to "shut me down", that
> (unfortunately, no doubt, from your viewpoint) is quite unlikely to
> happen.  Although "making predictions is always difficult, especially
> about the future", the most likely course of events is that I shall
> continue for a while to survive, probably in tolerable health.

You've got that completely wrong. I was not trying to kill you but I was 
trying to revive you. A process that is not evolving is dead. Stopping 
it frees up valuable resources that enable it to become alive again.

Anton

'being alive is being mutable'


From michael.f.ellis at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 14:24:35 2006
From: michael.f.ellis at gmail.com (michael.f.ellis at gmail.com)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 05:24:35 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1hgbhhi.mcrge51cyj2isN%aleax@mac.com>
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg9nl6.xivwcd7n0j5N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149277242.199765.213600@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<1hgbhhi.mcrge51cyj2isN%aleax@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1149337475.944457.168300@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Hey Alex, lighten up! Python is a programming language -- not your
family, religion, or civil rights.
Cheers,
Mike

Alex Martelli wrote:
> <michael.f.ellis at gmail.com> wrote:
>    ...
> > (As an aside, may I point out that Python In A Nutshell states on page
> > 46 "The result of S*n or n*S is the concatenation of n copies of S". It
> > might be well to put a warning in a future edition that this is not
> > strictly the case.)
>
> Can you give me an example where, say, for a sequence S,
>
> x = S * 3
>
> is not structurally the same as
>
> x = copy.copy(S) + copy.copy(S) + copy.copy(S)
>
> ...?  That is, where the "* 3" on a sequence is NOT the concatenation of
> three copies (ordinary copies, of course!) of that sequence?  I don't
> think you can... and I can't repeatedly explain or point to the
> distinction between normal, ordinary, shallow copies on one side, and
> "deep copies" on the other, every single time in which that distinction
> MIGHT be relevant (because some reader might not be aware of it); such
> endless repetition would bloat the Nutshell totally away from its role
> as a CONCISE desktop reference, and seriously hamper its usefulness
> (particularly by DESTROYING any trace of usefulness for anybody who's
> finally *GOT* this crucial bit, but not just in that way).
>
>
> > languages and methodologies.  As I noted in an earlier reply, I don't
> > realistically expect Python to change the behavior of the == operator.
>
> Then you might have avoided trying to convince anybody, or even trying
> to IMPLY, that in an ideal version of Python == *SHOULD* behave your way
> -- Python's semantics *ARE* entirely up for rediscussion at the moment,
> with an eye on the future "Python 3000" release, so this is one of the
> very rare periods of the history of the language where backwards
> incompatibility of a potential change is _NOT_ a blocking point.
>
> By asserting that your version of == would be "more natural", and trying
> to defend that assertion by vague handwaving references to maths and
> "real world", you managed to entirely shift MY mindstate (and possibly
> that of several other discussants) into one of total and absolute
> opposition to the proposal -- having by now spent considerable time and
> energy pondering and debating the issue, I am now entirely convinced
> that a language with such an == operator instead of Python's current one
> would be such a total, unadulterated disaster that I would refuse to use
> that language, no matter what other "good" features it might present to
> me.  I've walked away from great jobs, just because they would have
> required me to use some technology I just could not stand, more than
> once already in my life: and this IS how strongly (and negatively) I
> feel about your claim that, for built-in ==, your semantics would be in
> any way preferable to Python's.
>
> By managing to thus focus my mindset (and make me spend my energy and
> time) in opposition to your claims of "more natural", you have at least
> managed to ensure that I will not now lend any scrap of help or support
> to your debugging needs.  If you were as pragmatic as you claim to be,
> this kind of consideration WOULD have weighed highly in your choices.
>
> I.ie., if you had WANTED to attract any such support and help, a
> completely different attitude than that "most natural" claim would have
> been ENORMOUSLY more productive -- and your continuing attempts to
> debate that issue aren't helping AT ALL either:
>
> > I do think that a problem arose when it was adopted from C and extended
> > to allow comparison of containers.  In C, you can use it to compare
> > integers, floats, and pointers and everyone understands that p==q does
> > not imply *p == *q.
>
> If that is so, then everyone is utterly, totally, entirely, horribly
> *WRONG*, because, in C, p==q ***DOES*** imply *p == *q (whenever p --
> and by consequence q, given equality -- may legitimately be
> dereferenced: p == q == 0 does not imply anything about *p and/or *q,
> which may produce random results, crash the process, or whatever -- of
> course).
>
> You no doubt meant to say something entirely different from what you
> ACTUALLY said, but I respectfully suggest you spare your breath rather
> than keep trying to defend an indefensible position.
>
> I do NOT agree, and I cannot imagine any state of the world that would
> get me to agree, with your claim that "a problem arose" by allowing
> equality comparison of containers in Python (many other languages allow
> such comparisons, BTW; I would consider it a horrible wart if a language
> claiming to be "higher level" did NOT).  That you're "supporting" (HA!)
> your absurd claim with an equally absurd (and obviously, wholly false,
> unfounded, and misplaced) claim about C pointers doesn't "help", of
> course, but even perfectly accurate claims about C (or machine code, or
> Cobol, or RPG...) would be pretty much uninteresting and irrelevant.
>
> > Moreover, compilers issue warnings about
> > comparisons between different types.
>
> Some do, some don't, depending on the case -- e.g., I do not believe
> that even with -Wall (or the equivalent setting) any C compiler whines
> about EQUALITY comparisons of signed and unsigned integers (as well they
> shouldn't, of course)!
>
> And, just as of course, this umpteenth side-path you're introducing has
> really nothing to do with the case, since when you're comparing two
> lists-containing-lists which are equal by Python's rules but according
> to your original claims about what's "more natural" ``should not'' be,
> you ARE anyway comparing object of equal types.
>
> > Basically, I'm looking for simple diagnostic tools that make it easy to
> > understand what's really going on when code produces an unexpected
> > result.  A 'strengthened equivalence' operator, to use your terminology
> > would have been useful to me.
>
> A *FUNCTION* performing such checks in a debugging and diagnostics
> package would have been -- and if you hadn't pushed me to spend so much
> time and energy defending Python's design choices against your claims
> that other choices would be "more natural", you might have gotten help
> and support in developing it.  But you chose to make ill-founded claims
> of "more natural", and therefore you got a flamewar instead: your
> choice.
>
> > will serve to move the discussion beyond terms like 'crazy' and
> > 'handwaving' and 'ill-founded'.  I haven't used such perjoratives in
> > any of my posts and would appreciate the same courtesy.
>
> You claimed that Python's semantics are "contrary to one of my
> fundamental expectations", "an oddity", resulting only (you said in your
> second post) from a "performance and memory optimization", and tried to
> justify this severe criticism of Python by vague (i..e, "handwaving")
> appeals to analogies with "maths" and "the real world".
>
> I do not believe that such scathing criticism had any sound foundations,
> nor that calling it "ill-founded" is anything but a fittingly accurate
> description: and a language where the == operator DID satisfy the
> constraints you claimed to desire for *THE EQUALITY OPERATOR ITSELF* (as
> opposed to, for some helper/checker function in a separate module for
> checking and debugging) would be a crazy one indeed.  If my opinions
> that, I believe, accurately reflect the facts of the case, sound
> "pejorative" to you, well, that's not a matter of choice of words on my
> part, as much as of your choice of what to express in the first place.
>
> Take your recent claim that in C "everyone understands that p==q does
> not imply *p == *q"; which of the many ("pejorative") adjectives I
> tagged your assertion with do you think are inaccurate or inappropriate?
> I called it wrong, absurd, false, unfounded, and misplaced, and seasoned
> the mix with a choice of adverbs including "utterly" and "horribly".  It
> appears to me that each of these adjectives and adverbs is appropriate
> and accurate (though it's repetitious on my part to use them all, that
> repetition does convey the intensity of my opinions in the matter).
>
> This is a factual issue where it's easy to defend strongly held opinions
> (which may be checked against "facts"); in matters of "should" (what
> semantics "should" a certain language construct HAVE, in order to be
> most natural, simplest, and most useful -- quite apart from any issues
> of optimization) such ease is, alas, not given... but the fact that
> veryfying clashing opinons about what "should" be the case is way harder
> than opinions easily checkable against "facts", does not mean that the
> "should"'s (which are even more important, potentially, in their effect
> on future language design!) are any less important -- on the contrary.
>
>
> I do not believe I am going to follow this thread any more; I wish you
> best of luck in your future endeavors -- and, if you can get back to
> being the pragmatist that you claim to be, perhaps in the future you may
> chose to express your debugging needs and desiderata in ways that
> dispose the experts on some give technology to help and support you,
> rather than to fight against the damage which, they opine, it would
> cause to the future of that technology if certain ("crazy") suggestions
> were to be part of it.
> 
> 
> Alex



From aleax at mac.com  Sat Jun  3 04:25:44 2006
From: aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 19:25:44 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg9nl6.xivwcd7n0j5N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149277242.199765.213600@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6486.1149299806.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1hgbjx1.1gn7haipx7x5N%aleax@mac.com>

Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:

> <michael.f.ellis at gmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:1149277242.199765.213600 at g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > (As an aside, may I point out that Python In A Nutshell states on page
> > 46 "The result of S*n or n*S is the concatenation of n copies of S".
> 
> It would be more exact to say that S*n is [] extended with S  n times,
> which makes it clear that 0*S == S*0 == [] and which avoids the apparently
> misleading word 'copy'.  I presume the C implementation is the equivalent

Considering that the very next (and final) sentence in that same
paragraph is "If n is zero or less than zero, the result is an empty
sequence of the same type as S", I don't think there's anything
misleading in the quoted sentence.  Moreover, since the paragraph is
about sequences, not just lists, it *WOULD* be horribly wrong to use the
phrasing you suggest: "bah!"*3 is NOT a list, it's EXACTLY the
concatenation of three copies of that string -- no more, no less.

> Or one could say that the result *is the same as* (not *is*) the 

I find this distinction, in this context, to be empty padding, with zero
added value on ANY plane -- including the plane of "pedantry";-).

> concatenation of n *shallow* copies of S.  'Shallow' means that each copy

I do not think it would be good to introduce the concept of "shallow" at
a point in the text which is talking about ALL sequences -- including
ones, such as strings, for which it just does not apply.

But, thanks for the suggestions, anyway!


Alex


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Jun  4 01:25:26 2006
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 19:25:26 -0400
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com><1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com><1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com><1hg9nl6.xivwcd7n0j5N%aleax@mac.com><1149277242.199765.213600@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com><mailman.6486.1149299806.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1hgbjx1.1gn7haipx7x5N%aleax@mac.com>
Message-ID: <e5t5p6$d3r$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Alex Martelli" <aleax at mac.com> wrote in message 
news:1hgbjx1.1gn7haipx7x5N%aleax at mac.com...
> Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
>
>> <michael.f.ellis at gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1149277242.199765.213600 at g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> > (As an aside, may I point out that Python In A Nutshell states on page
>> > 46 "The result of S*n or n*S is the concatenation of n copies of S".

Alex, in responding to this sentence lifted out of context by Michael, I am 
responding more to him and his claim of 'not strictly the case' than to 
you.  What I wrote is also more a draft of a paragraph for a book of mine 
(of no competition to yours) than a suggestion for a future edition of your 
book.

>> It would be more exact to say that S*n is [] extended with S  n times,

A**b is often explained as 'A multiplied by itself b times' or some such. 
It is more exact to say it is '1 multiplied by A b times'

>> which makes it clear that 0*S == S*0 == []

which makes it clear that A**0, including 0**0, is 1.

>> and which avoids the apparently misleading word 'copy'.

Given the number of people, including Michael, who have posted puzzlement 
based on their confusion as to what does and does not get copied, I don't 
think it unfair to call 'copy' 'apparently misleading.  My intention in 
this phrase is to suggest that one who misunderstands 'copy' in this 
context will be mislead while one who understands just what is copied and 
what is not copied will not.

The point of my code snippet was to explain/illustrate what is copied. 
While it will (obviously) only executive as Python code for lists, I 
believe the algorithm is generic if the initial assignment and list.extend 
method are suitably interpreted.

Of course, I presume that in the CPython code, the actual initialization is 
more like (length one blank value)  * (n*len(S)) followed by n slice 
assignments, but the Python code for this would still be list specific and 
would also be more complex, without much aiding comprehension of the 
result.

Strings are a somewhat special case since the characters in the string are 
not wrapped as Python objects unless and until extracted from the string. 
So one cannot as easily talk about the object(s) contained in the sequence.

> Considering that the very next (and final) sentence in that same
> paragraph is "If n is zero or less than zero, the result is an empty
> sequence of the same type as S", I don't think there's anything
> misleading in the quoted sentence.

In its original context, with respect to that issue, no.  But as I said, I 
was responding to Michael's removed-from-context quotation and his claim 
about the need for a warning.  I wonder if you read down to the end, where 
I asked him whether I had missed anything he might find fault with, before 
you responded.

>  Moreover, since the paragraph is about sequences, not just lists,

This *thread* is about repetition of lists, and in particular, a list of 
one (or more) lists, and the consequences of the mutability of the inner 
lists, and that is the context in which I wrote.

> it *WOULD* be horribly wrong to use the phrasing you suggest:

In a generic context, [] would obviously have to be replaced by 'null 
sequence of the type of S', which in many cases is type(S)().  And 'extend' 
would have to be interpreted generically, as something the interpreter 
would do behind the scenes in type(S). __new__, although as I said before, 
I don't think that is exactly what it does do.

>"bah!"*3 is NOT a list,

Duh.,

> it's EXACTLY the
> concatenation of three copies of that string -- no more, no less.

Depends what one means by 'copy'.  See below for your alternate wording.

>> Or one could say that the result *is the same as* (not *is*) the
>
> I find this distinction, in this context, to be empty padding, with zero
> added value on ANY plane -- including the plane of "pedantry";-).

Perhaps you should tone down the overwrought emotionalism and take a look 
in a mirror.  In *your* response to Michael you made the *same* 
distinction:

>> Can you give me an example where, say, for a sequence S,
>> x = S * 3
>> is not structurally the same as
>> x = copy.copy(S) + copy.copy(S) + copy.copy(S)

I agree that adding 'structurally' makes the 'padding' even better.

>> concatenation of n *shallow* copies of S.  'Shallow' means that each 
>> copy

> I do not think it would be good to introduce the concept of "shallow" at
> a point in the text which is talking about ALL sequences -- including
> ones, such as strings, for which it just does not apply.

Again, I was not suggesting that you do so.  Adding 'shallow' was 
intentially pedantic for Michael's 'benefit'.  To be clear, I was *NOT* 
supporting his warning suggestion.

> But, thanks for the suggestions, anyway!

We both have the goal of expaining Python better so beginners hit fewer 
bumps on the road.

Terry Jan Reedy





From aleax at mac.com  Sun Jun  4 02:03:00 2006
From: aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 17:03:00 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg9nl6.xivwcd7n0j5N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149277242.199765.213600@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6486.1149299806.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1hgbjx1.1gn7haipx7x5N%aleax@mac.com>
	<mailman.6507.1149377153.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1hgd7ry.1lrs9rqnn77ayN%aleax@mac.com>

Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:

> > it's EXACTLY the
> > concatenation of three copies of that string -- no more, no less.
> 
> Depends what one means by 'copy'.  See below for your alternate wording.

Please give me a reasonable definition of the unadorned word "copy"
which would make this statement false.  (And, just to forestall one
possible attempt: no, I cannot agree that a ``deepcopy'' is a reasonable
definition of the _unadorned_ word "copy").


> >> Or one could say that the result *is the same as* (not *is*) the
> >
> > I find this distinction, in this context, to be empty padding, with zero
> > added value on ANY plane -- including the plane of "pedantry";-).
> 
> Perhaps you should tone down the overwrought emotionalism and take a look
> in a mirror.  In *your* response to Michael you made the *same* 
> distinction:

I did not *DRAW* any distinction (as you did with your parenthetical
note "(not *is*)", emphasis and all) -- rather, I used one of many
reasonably interchangeable ways to word a concept.  ((In the Nutshell, I
always deliberately try to pick the shortest and most concise way; in my
more spontaneous writing, I strongly tend to wilder exhuberance).

So, having deeply delved into the mirror, I still fail to find any
validity in your criticism: the phrases "S*n is the same as the
concatenation of" and "S*n the concatenation of", taken as definitions
of what S*n means, are such that your emphatic distinction has no added
value whatsoever -- I stand by this assertion and fail to see in it any
emotionalism, overwrought or otherwise.  Care to _defend_ your
criticism, with some _objective_ explanation of why that parenthetical
was warranted (particularly the emphasis within it)?  Or would you
rather continue the personal attacks against me and the unproven
accusations of "overwrought emotionalism" in particular?


Alex


From slawomir.nowaczyk.847 at student.lu.se  Mon Jun  5 11:48:05 2006
From: slawomir.nowaczyk.847 at student.lu.se (Slawomir Nowaczyk)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 11:48:05 +0200
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
In-Reply-To: <1hgd7ry.1lrs9rqnn77ayN%aleax@mac.com>
References: <mailman.6507.1149377153.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1hgd7ry.1lrs9rqnn77ayN%aleax@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20060605114741.FC69.SLAWOMIR.NOWACZYK.847@student.lu.se>

On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 17:03:00 -0700
aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli) wrote:

#> Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
#> 
#> > Depends what one means by 'copy'.  See below for your alternate wording.
#> 
#> Please give me a reasonable definition of the unadorned word "copy"
#> which would make this statement false.  (And, just to forestall one
#> possible attempt: no, I cannot agree that a ``deepcopy'' is a reasonable
#> definition of the _unadorned_ word "copy").

Actually, when *I* think about the word "copy", I have in mind what
happens with files... and I to me semantics of []*3 is more like
symbolic linking, not copying. While I, personally, understand the
sentence in question "The result of S*n or n*S is the concatenation of
n copies of S" correctly, I *do* see how it might be misunderstood by
others.

Not that I know how to express it better :-(

-- 
 Best wishes,
   Slawomir Nowaczyk
     ( Slawomir.Nowaczyk at cs.lth.se )

Don't wake me for the end of the world unless it has very good
special effects -- Roger Zelazny



From aleax at mac.com  Mon Jun  5 16:24:57 2006
From: aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 07:24:57 -0700
Subject: An oddity in list comparison and element assignment
References: <1149174141.395647.48940@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg8ug8.m01zhwehpk66N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149177617.985251.74560@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1hg9nl6.xivwcd7n0j5N%aleax@mac.com>
	<1149277242.199765.213600@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6486.1149299806.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1hgbjx1.1gn7haipx7x5N%aleax@mac.com>
	<mailman.6507.1149377153.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1hgd7ry.1lrs9rqnn77ayN%aleax@mac.com>
	<mailman.6539.1149500908.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1hgg5o4.rfx6dk1tmcn6rN%aleax@mac.com>

Slawomir Nowaczyk <slawomir.nowaczyk.847 at student.lu.se> wrote:

> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 17:03:00 -0700
> aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli) wrote:
> 
> #> Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
> #> 
> #> > Depends what one means by 'copy'.  See below for your alternate wording.
> #> 
> #> Please give me a reasonable definition of the unadorned word "copy"
> #> which would make this statement false.  (And, just to forestall one
> #> possible attempt: no, I cannot agree that a ``deepcopy'' is a reasonable
> #> definition of the _unadorned_ word "copy").
> 
> Actually, when *I* think about the word "copy", I have in mind what
> happens with files...

Sure!  In particular, to reproduce the concept of an object containing
references to other objects, imagine that the file is a .tar, .dmg (on
MacOSX), or other kind of "container"/"archive" kind of file, and one of
the items in its contents is a symbolic link.

When you copy the archive file, both the original and the copy now
contain symbolic links to the SAME target.

> and I to me semantics of []*3 is more like
> symbolic linking, not copying.

???  an _assignment_ in Python can be said to be "like symbolic linking,
not copying" -- and that's a crucial part of Python's semantics, of
course.  But the Sequence*N operation has nothing to do with creating
symbolic links; it may (of course) _copy_ such links, if they're present
in the sequence, just like copying a container file copies symbolic
links it may contain -- in each case one can end up with symbolic links
to the same target.  The analogy between files and Python objects is of
course not exact (partly because filesystems normally distinguish
between directories, which only contain references to files, and
"ordinary" files, that don't -- the Composite Design Pattern proceeds,
often fruitfully, by abstracting away this distinction), but in as far
as it holds, it points roughly in the right direction.  (GNU's cp offers
a -R switch to explicitly perform a "recursive copy", with other
switches such as -H, -L, -P to affect what happens in that case to
symlinks -- this -R is more akin to "deep copying", except that Python's
deepcopy is simpler, and always "recurses to the hilt").

> While I, personally, understand the
> sentence in question "The result of S*n or n*S is the concatenation of
> n copies of S" correctly, I *do* see how it might be misunderstood by
> others.
> 
> Not that I know how to express it better :-(

I do find it interesting that the concept of "copy" causes such trouble,
even when the analogies used (filecopying and symlinks) would tend to
point in the right direction.  The "real-life" analogy of copying a list
also points in the right direction: if I have a list of the writings I
hold on my library's top shelf, when I copy the list, both the original
and the copy point to _exactly the same_ writings -- not to separate
copies of each.  If I asked an employee to "please copy this list" I
would be astonished if he or she by default also copied each other
writing that is an _item_ on the list -- surely I would expect such huge
amounts of work to happen only when explicitly requested, and the
default meaning of "copy" to be therefore ``shallow'' (wherever
applicable, that is, when copying something that references other
things).  It would be interesting to study the root of the confusion in
more detail (although it's unlikely, as you indicate, that such study
would yield a different definition, concise and simple enough to be used
in a concise reference work, it would still help authors of tutorials).


Alex
 


From elekis at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 17:03:16 2006
From: elekis at gmail.com (elekis)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 08:03:16 -0700
Subject: how to create a cgi folder???
Message-ID: <1149174196.582085.5150@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

hi there I have a host who suport python cgi script (www.frihost.com
that's cool) and discovert python (and mysql) I would like to make my
own site on python .  But I woulud like to try before on my own machine
(localhost.)

So I would like to know how to create a CGI folder ??? I installed
apache (I m under Ubuntu-linux) php and mysql cause in a first time it
was that I used. but...


is ther a package or a binary who do all ???

thanks


a++++



From rabkinDELETE at mweb.co.za  Thu Jun  1 22:01:54 2006
From: rabkinDELETE at mweb.co.za (Max)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:01:54 +0200
Subject: how to create a cgi folder???
In-Reply-To: <1149174196.582085.5150@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149174196.582085.5150@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <xtCdnaLL-_cu2uLZnZ2dnUVZ_v-dnZ2d@is.co.za>

elekis wrote:
> So I would like to know how to create a CGI folder ??? I installed
> apache (I m under Ubuntu-linux) php and mysql cause in a first time it
> was that I used. but...

AFAIR it's all in the apache docs. When I did my first CGI I had no web 
access (still don't on this PC), so if I managed to do it, it must have 
been in the apache docs or python docs (and I did manage).

--Max


From 3dbernard at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 18:07:00 2006
From: 3dbernard at gmail.com (Bernard Lebel)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:07:00 -0400
Subject: Tkinter: select multiple entries in Listbox widget?
Message-ID: <61d0e2b40606010907v4846da5dt39ab4f5f58293069@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Is there an option or a way to allow the selection of multiple entries
in the Listbox widget? I could not find any, and would like to allow
the end user to select multiple entries.


Thanks
Bernard


From rtw at freenet.co.uk  Thu Jun  1 21:19:47 2006
From: rtw at freenet.co.uk (Rob Williscroft)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:19:47 -0500
Subject: Tkinter: select multiple entries in Listbox widget?
References: <mailman.6413.1149178158.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Xns97D5CEF3FD579rtwfreenetREMOVEcouk@216.196.109.145>

Bernard Lebel wrote in news:mailman.6413.1149178158.27775.python-
list at python.org in comp.lang.python:

> Hello,
> 
> Is there an option or a way to allow the selection of multiple entries
> in the Listbox widget? I could not find any, and would like to allow
> the end user to select multiple entries.
> 
> 

When configuring use:

  selectmode = "multiple"

e.g.:

import Tkinter as tk

root = tk.Tk()

a = tk.Listbox( root, selectmode = "multiple" )
for i in range(10):
  a.insert( i, str(i) + " item" )

a.pack()
root.mainloop()

I found the answer here:

http://www.python.org/doc/life-preserver/ClassListbox.html

Though I had to guess the `= "multiple"` part.

Rob.
-- 
http://www.victim-prime.dsl.pipex.com/


From 3dbernard at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 22:45:44 2006
From: 3dbernard at gmail.com (Bernard Lebel)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:45:44 -0400
Subject: Tkinter: select multiple entries in Listbox widget?
In-Reply-To: <Xns97D5CEF3FD579rtwfreenetREMOVEcouk@216.196.109.145>
References: <mailman.6413.1149178158.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns97D5CEF3FD579rtwfreenetREMOVEcouk@216.196.109.145>
Message-ID: <61d0e2b40606011345jfa64a17i12e6825fd75d87e0@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, thanks a lot Rob.


Bernard



On 6/1/06, Rob Williscroft <rtw at freenet.co.uk> wrote:
> Bernard Lebel wrote in news:mailman.6413.1149178158.27775.python-
> list at python.org in comp.lang.python:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Is there an option or a way to allow the selection of multiple entries
> > in the Listbox widget? I could not find any, and would like to allow
> > the end user to select multiple entries.
> >
> >
>
> When configuring use:
>
>   selectmode = "multiple"
>
> e.g.:
>
> import Tkinter as tk
>
> root = tk.Tk()
>
> a = tk.Listbox( root, selectmode = "multiple" )
> for i in range(10):
>   a.insert( i, str(i) + " item" )
>
> a.pack()
> root.mainloop()
>
> I found the answer here:
>
> http://www.python.org/doc/life-preserver/ClassListbox.html
>
> Though I had to guess the `= "multiple"` part.
>
> Rob.
> --
> http://www.victim-prime.dsl.pipex.com/
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From junkytownMAKNI at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 14:56:54 2006
From: junkytownMAKNI at gmail.com (SuperHik)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 14:56:54 +0200
Subject: Tkinter: select multiple entries in Listbox widget?
In-Reply-To: <Xns97D5CEF3FD579rtwfreenetREMOVEcouk@216.196.109.145>
References: <mailman.6413.1149178158.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns97D5CEF3FD579rtwfreenetREMOVEcouk@216.196.109.145>
Message-ID: <e5pcin$re6$1@ss408.t-com.hr>

Rob Williscroft wrote:
> Bernard Lebel wrote in news:mailman.6413.1149178158.27775.python-
> list at python.org in comp.lang.python:
> 
>> Hello,
>>
>> Is there an option or a way to allow the selection of multiple entries
>> in the Listbox widget? I could not find any, and would like to allow
>> the end user to select multiple entries.
>>
>>
> 
> When configuring use:
> 
>   selectmode = "multiple"
> 
> e.g.:
> 
> import Tkinter as tk
> 
> root = tk.Tk()
> 
> a = tk.Listbox( root, selectmode = "multiple" )
> for i in range(10):
>   a.insert( i, str(i) + " item" )
> 
> a.pack()
> root.mainloop()
> 
> I found the answer here:
> 
> http://www.python.org/doc/life-preserver/ClassListbox.html
> 
> Though I had to guess the `= "multiple"` part.
> 
> Rob.
cool.
never needed it so far but it's nice to know :D


From d.schulz81 at gmx.net  Thu Jun  1 18:10:09 2006
From: d.schulz81 at gmx.net (d.schulz81 at gmx.net)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 09:10:09 -0700
Subject: Zope / Plone Groups
Message-ID: <1149178209.825191.128050@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Hi,

are there any specific groups for zope / plone regarding questions?

my question is:

How is it possible to use Zope 3 Products with Plone, which is an
extension based on Zope 2?


Thank you Dennis



From scott.daniels at acm.org  Thu Jun  1 18:46:43 2006
From: scott.daniels at acm.org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 09:46:43 -0700
Subject: Zope / Plone Groups
In-Reply-To: <1149178209.825191.128050@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149178209.825191.128050@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447f158d$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

d.schulz81 at gmx.net wrote:

> are there any specific groups for zope / plone regarding questions?

Check gmane (google for it).

-- 
--Scott David Daniels
scott.daniels at acm.org


From reply.in.the.newsgroup at my.address.is.invalid  Fri Jun  2 01:18:29 2006
From: reply.in.the.newsgroup at my.address.is.invalid (Rene Pijlman)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:18:29 +0200
Subject: Zope / Plone Groups
References: <1149178209.825191.128050@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <kctu7219ajish05a5bs3kpk7bbi5a0bh2p@4ax.com>

d.schulz81 at gmx.net:
>are there any specific groups for zope / plone regarding questions?

Try plone-users: http://plone.org/support

-- 
Ren? Pijlman


From harlinseritt at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  1 18:24:10 2006
From: harlinseritt at yahoo.com (Harlin Seritt)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 09:24:10 -0700
Subject: Finding web host headers
Message-ID: <1149179050.315297.79470@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Is there any way to fetch a website's host/version headers using
Python?

Thanks,

Harlin



From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Thu Jun  1 19:08:27 2006
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:08:27 -0500
Subject: Finding web host headers
In-Reply-To: <1149179050.315297.79470@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149179050.315297.79470@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447F1F0B.6000600@tim.thechases.com>

> Is there any way to fetch a website's host/version headers using
> Python?

 >>> import httplib
 >>> conn = httplib.HTTPConnection("docs.python.org")
 >>> conn.connect()
 >>> conn.request("HEAD", "/")
 >>> response = dict([(k.lower(), v) for k,v in conn.getresponse()])
 >>> conn.close()
 >>> server = response["server"]
 >>> print server
Apache/2.0.54 (Debian GNU/Linux) DAV/2 SVN/1.1.4 mod_python/3.1.3 
Python/2.3.5 mod_ssl/2.0.54 OpenSSL/0.9.7e


I've found a bit of discrepancy with regards to the case of the 
"server" portion, so the above code just normalizes it to 
lowercase and then shoves it in a dictionary.

You can then do as you please with the contents of the "server" 
variable.

It's theoretically possible that the server can return differing 
headers based on the URL you request or its method.  You'll have 
to adjust the request() call for the method (GET/HEAD/POST, etc) 
and for the resource you want (in this case, just "/")

-tkc





From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Thu Jun  1 19:20:44 2006
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:20:44 -0500
Subject: Finding web host headers
In-Reply-To: <447F1F0B.6000600@tim.thechases.com>
References: <1149179050.315297.79470@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<447F1F0B.6000600@tim.thechases.com>
Message-ID: <447F21EC.40801@tim.thechases.com>

>> Is there any way to fetch a website's host/version headers using
>> Python?
> 
>  >>> import httplib
>  >>> conn = httplib.HTTPConnection("docs.python.org")
>  >>> conn.connect()
>  >>> conn.request("HEAD", "/")
>  >>> response = dict([(k.lower(), v) for k,v in conn.getresponse()])
>  >>> conn.close()
>  >>> server = response["server"]
>  >>> print server
> Apache/2.0.54 (Debian GNU/Linux) DAV/2 SVN/1.1.4 mod_python/3.1.3 
> Python/2.3.5 mod_ssl/2.0.54 OpenSSL/0.9.7e

Dang, I copied that over by hand and miscopied it with a big 
error or two.  It can also be cleaned up a bit, as I learned (the 
getheader() call is case-insensitive, and the connect() call was 
superfluous).  Copying verbatim...

 >>> import httplib
 >>> conn = httplib.HTTPConnection("docs.python.org")
 >>> conn.request("HEAD", "/")
 >>> response = conn.getresponse()
 >>> conn.close()
 >>> server = response.getheader("server")
 >>> print server
Apache/2.0.54 (Debian GNU/Linux) DAV/2 SVN/1.1.4 mod_python/3.1.3 
Python/2.3.5 mod_ssl/2.0.54 OpenSSL/0.9.7e



Sorry about the rubbish code the first time out the gate.

-tkc




From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Thu Jun  1 18:35:20 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:35:20 -0400
Subject: Python for Visual Basic or C# programmers
Message-ID: <YDEfg.1522$Su3.135063@news20.bellglobal.com>

Hi,



I am trying to find the equivalent functions  such as vb's str or asc in 
Python. Is there any resource that help me to find these kinds of functions 
in Python faster?



Thank you,

Alan




From jcb at iteris.com  Thu Jun  1 20:03:01 2006
From: jcb at iteris.com (Metalone)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 11:03:01 -0700
Subject: Python for Visual Basic or C# programmers
References: <YDEfg.1522$Su3.135063@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <1149184981.184143.63160@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

A.M wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I am trying to find the equivalent functions  such as vb's str or asc in
> Python. Is there any resource that help me to find these kinds of functions
> in Python faster?
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Alan

>
> Alan

Python has a str() function that is close to vb's str.  The Python
version does not produce a leading space.
str(123) --> '123'

If you want to control the formatting to mimick vb or create different
formatting you can use.
" %d" % 123 --> ' 123'
The format specifier is just like 'C's printf format strings.
A tuple should follow the % sign if formatting more than 1 number.
"%d %d" % (123, 456)

Python has a similar function to vb's asc.
It is ord().
ord() accepts a single character, whereas asc operates on the first
character of a string.
To mimick vb you could do
s = 'hello'
ord(s[0]) --> 104

I am unaware of any reference associating vb functionality with Python
functionality.
Then again, I never looked for one.



From jcb at iteris.com  Thu Jun  1 21:01:43 2006
From: jcb at iteris.com (Metalone)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 12:01:43 -0700
Subject: Python for Visual Basic or C# programmers
In-Reply-To: <1149184981.184143.63160@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <YDEfg.1522$Su3.135063@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<1149184981.184143.63160@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149188503.783262.132870@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Slight correction.
" %d" % 123 is not quite equivalent to str(123) as it does not handle
negative numbers the same way.
I am not sure there is a simple direct equivalent.
"%+d" % 123 --> "+123" always gives a sign.
"%4d" % 123 --> " 123"
"%4d" % -123 --> "-123"  so this works if you you know how wide the
number is.

This might be a little too tricky.
[" %d", "%d][n < 0] % n  --> selects list[0] or list[1] based upon sign
of number



From rabkinDELETE at mweb.co.za  Thu Jun  1 21:58:38 2006
From: rabkinDELETE at mweb.co.za (Max)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:58:38 +0200
Subject: Python for Visual Basic or C# programmers
In-Reply-To: <1149188503.783262.132870@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <YDEfg.1522$Su3.135063@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<1149184981.184143.63160@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<1149188503.783262.132870@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <Q8GdnWKO4vpy2-LZRVn-pg@is.co.za>

Metalone wrote:
<on imitatting VB's irritating space-or-minus>
> 
> This might be a little too tricky.
> [" %d", "%d][n < 0] % n  --> selects list[0] or list[1] based upon sign
> of number
> 

("%+d" % 123).replace("+", " ") is slightly longer but instantly 
comprehensible, although I for one think your boolean indexing trick is 
cool.

--Max


From kent at kentsjohnson.com  Thu Jun  1 20:58:15 2006
From: kent at kentsjohnson.com (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:58:15 -0400
Subject: Python for Visual Basic or C# programmers
In-Reply-To: <YDEfg.1522$Su3.135063@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <YDEfg.1522$Su3.135063@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <447f37ce$1_1@newspeer2.tds.net>

A.M wrote:
> I am trying to find the equivalent functions  such as vb's str or asc in 
> Python. Is there any resource that help me to find these kinds of functions 
> in Python faster?

The Library Reference has a section on built-in functions:
http://docs.python.org/lib/built-in-funcs.html

Also take a look at the section on string methods:
http://docs.python.org/lib/string-methods.html

Kent


From laurent.pointal at limsi.fr  Fri Jun  2 10:26:28 2006
From: laurent.pointal at limsi.fr (Laurent Pointal)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 10:26:28 +0200
Subject: Python for Visual Basic or C# programmers
In-Reply-To: <YDEfg.1522$Su3.135063@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <YDEfg.1522$Su3.135063@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <e5osni$ntn$2@upsn250.cri.u-psud.fr>

A.M a ?crit :
> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> I am trying to find the equivalent functions  such as vb's str or asc in 
> Python. Is there any resource that help me to find these kinds of functions 
> in Python faster?

<mode pub="on">

I've written the PQRC for that purpose:
http://www.limsi.fr/Individu/pointal/python/pqrc/

</mode>

A+

Laurent.


From chris at kateandchris.net  Fri Jun  2 16:33:06 2006
From: chris at kateandchris.net (Chris Lambacher)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:33:06 -0400
Subject: Python for Visual Basic or C# programmers
In-Reply-To: <e5osni$ntn$2@upsn250.cri.u-psud.fr>
References: <YDEfg.1522$Su3.135063@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<e5osni$ntn$2@upsn250.cri.u-psud.fr>
Message-ID: <20060602143305.GA7371@kateandchris.net>

On Fri, Jun 02, 2006 at 10:26:28AM +0200, Laurent Pointal wrote:
> A.M a ?crit :
> > Hi,
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I am trying to find the equivalent functions  such as vb's str or asc in 
> > Python. Is there any resource that help me to find these kinds of functions 
> > in Python faster?
> 
> <mode pub="on">
> 
> I've written the PQRC for that purpose:
> http://www.limsi.fr/Individu/pointal/python/pqrc/
> 
> </mode>
There is also the Python Quick reference series:
http://rgruet.free.fr/#QuickRef
> 
> A+
> 
> Laurent.
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Thu Jun  1 20:00:42 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:00:42 -0400
Subject: Member index in toples
Message-ID: <_TFfg.2976$EF1.229574@news20.bellglobal.com>

Hi,



I have a tuple like this:



T = ("One","Two","Three","Four")



Is there any built-in way to find what is the index of "Two" withouot 
looping within the tuple?



Is the same feature available for lists or dictionaries?



Thank you,

Alan




From klaus at seistrup.dk  Thu Jun  1 20:29:26 2006
From: klaus at seistrup.dk (Klaus Alexander Seistrup)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 18:29:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Member index in toples
References: <_TFfg.2976$EF1.229574@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <e5nbm6$o73$1@minji.szn.dk>

A.M skrev:

> I have a tuple like this:
>
> T = ("One","Two","Three","Four")
>
> Is there any built-in way to find what is the index of "Two" 
> withouot looping within the tuple?
>
> Is the same feature available for lists or dictionaries?

Lists have an index method:

#v+

>>> L = list(T)
>>> L.index('Three')
2
>>> 

#v-

Dictionaries are unordered and hence indices don't make much sense.

Mvh, 

-- 
Klaus Alexander Seistrup
SubZeroNet, Copenhagen, Denmark
http://magnetic-ink.dk/


From skip at pobox.com  Thu Jun  1 20:29:55 2006
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:29:55 -0500
Subject: Member index in toples
In-Reply-To: <_TFfg.2976$EF1.229574@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <_TFfg.2976$EF1.229574@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <17535.12835.850965.102573@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Alan> T = ("One","Two","Three","Four")

    Alan> Is there any built-in way to find what is the index of "Two"
    Alan> withouot looping within the tuple?

One thing to consider is the different uses intended for tuples and lists.
Tuples should not be treated as immutable lists, though many people use them
that way.  Think of lists as arrays of objects of uniform type.  Think of
tuples more like Pascal records or C structs.  You probably want to use a
list in the above case.

That said, note that Python provides lots of introspection capability.  Try
this at an interpreter prompt:

    T = ("One","Two","Three","Four")
    L = list(T)
    help(L)

or from a shell prompt:

    pydoc list

The help it returns suggests that

    L.index("Two")

will tell you the index of "Two" in L.

    Alan> Is the same feature available for lists or dictionaries?

Dictionaries are inherently unordered.  You probably want to consider the
truth of this expression:

    "Two" in mydict

for a suitably defined dictionary.  It answers whether "Two" exists as a key
in mydict.

Skip


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Thu Jun  1 21:36:07 2006
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:36:07 -0500
Subject: Member index in toples
In-Reply-To: <_TFfg.2976$EF1.229574@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <_TFfg.2976$EF1.229574@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <447F41A7.3010108@tim.thechases.com>

> I have a tuple like this:
> 
> T = ("One","Two","Three","Four")
> 
> Is there any built-in way to find what is the index of "Two" withouot 
> looping within the tuple?
> 
> Is the same feature available for lists or dictionaries?

Lists have a index() method.  For the tuple, you can convert it 
to a list:

	indexOfTwo = list(T).index("Two")

Dictionaries don't have a defined ordering, so there's no similar 
functionality (because results would be meaningless) unless you 
convert it to a list, and then you can snag its index in the 
arbitrarily-ordered results (or sort the results first).

If you just need to test for presence, and don't need the index, 
you can use

	"Two" in T

Just a few ideas...

-tkc





From bborcic at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 20:34:11 2006
From: bborcic at gmail.com (Boris Borcic)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:34:11 +0200
Subject: numpy bug
Message-ID: <447f3338$1_7@news.bluewin.ch>

after a while trying to find the legal manner to file numpy bug reports,
since it's a simple one, I thought maybe a first step is to describe the bug 
here. Then maybe someone will direct me to the right channel.

So, numpy appears not to correctly compute bitwise_and.reduce and 
bitwise_or.reduce : instead of reducing over the complete axis, these methods 
only take the extremities into account. Illustration :

 >>> from numpy import *
 >>> bitwise_or.reduce(array([8,256,32,8]))
8
 >>> import numpy
 >>> numpy.__version__
'0.9.8'
 >>>

Platform : Win XP SP2, Python 2.4.2

HTH, bb


From robert.kern at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 20:56:07 2006
From: robert.kern at gmail.com (Robert Kern)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:56:07 -0500
Subject: numpy bug
In-Reply-To: <447f3338$1_7@news.bluewin.ch>
References: <447f3338$1_7@news.bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <e5nd85$q9v$1@sea.gmane.org>

Boris Borcic wrote:
> after a while trying to find the legal manner to file numpy bug reports,
> since it's a simple one, I thought maybe a first step is to describe the bug 
> here. Then maybe someone will direct me to the right channel.

Register an account on our Trac, and then you can create new tickets. We require
registration because we were getting bombarded with spam tickets.

  http://projects.scipy.org/scipy/numpy

Also, the appropriate mailing list would be numpy-discussion:

  http://www.scipy.org/Mailing_Lists

> So, numpy appears not to correctly compute bitwise_and.reduce and 
> bitwise_or.reduce : instead of reducing over the complete axis, these methods 
> only take the extremities into account. Illustration :
> 
>  >>> from numpy import *
>  >>> bitwise_or.reduce(array([8,256,32,8]))
> 8

Indeed. Please create a ticket. In the meantime, the .accumulate() method works
correctly; you can use the last item to get the correct result for .reduce().

-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
 that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
 an underlying truth."
  -- Umberto Eco



From aisaac0 at verizon.net  Sun Jun  4 01:45:31 2006
From: aisaac0 at verizon.net (David Isaac)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 23:45:31 GMT
Subject: numpy bug
References: <447f3338$1_7@news.bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <vapgg.1906$9c7.22@trnddc06>

"Boris Borcic" <bborcic at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:447f3338$1_7 at news.bluewin.ch...
> after a while trying to find the legal manner to file numpy bug reports,
> since it's a simple one, I thought maybe a first step is to describe the
bug
> here. Then maybe someone will direct me to the right channel.
>
> So, numpy appears not to correctly compute bitwise_and.reduce and
> bitwise_or.reduce : instead of reducing over the complete axis, these
methods
> only take the extremities into account. Illustration :
>
>  >>> from numpy import *
>  >>> bitwise_or.reduce(array([8,256,32,8]))
> 8
>  >>> import numpy
>  >>> numpy.__version__
> '0.9.8'
>  >>>
>
> Platform : Win XP SP2, Python 2.4.2


Most bug reports start on the numpy list,
I believe.  (See above.)

Cheers,
Alan Isaac




From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Thu Jun  1 20:55:28 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:55:28 -0400
Subject: How to format datetime values
Message-ID: <kHGfg.2994$EF1.230211@news20.bellglobal.com>

Hi,



I have a datetime value and want to format it to "June 1, 2006" shape. How 
can I do that?



Thank you,

Alan






From rpdooling at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 21:30:42 2006
From: rpdooling at gmail.com (BartlebyScrivener)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 12:30:42 -0700
Subject: How to format datetime values
In-Reply-To: <kHGfg.2994$EF1.230211@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <kHGfg.2994$EF1.230211@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <1149190242.446952.52180@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Are you trying to get banned, or what?

It's the equivalent of me asking you:

Hey, does Ruby have anything like dictionaries and will you teach me
about strings?  Oh, and what's an object?

Go read the bleeping tutorial.

rd



From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Thu Jun  1 22:07:01 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:07:01 -0400
Subject: How to format datetime values
References: <kHGfg.2994$EF1.230211@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<1149190242.446952.52180@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <pKHfg.3008$EF1.231305@news20.bellglobal.com>


"BartlebyScrivener" <rpdooling at gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1149190242.446952.52180 at j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Are you trying to get banned, or what?
>
> It's the equivalent of me asking you:
>
> Hey, does Ruby have anything like dictionaries and will you teach me
> about strings?  Oh, and what's an object?
>
> Go read the bleeping tutorial.
>
> rd
>

Well, I did investigate all tutorial and google and I wasn't able to find 
any built-in way for datetime formatting in Python. In fact I cannot find 
any way to format a long integer into 99,999,9999 format. I know how to 
format strings with C printf like formatter, but I am sure what I am trying 
to do can't be done with C printf formatting.



I also found that mx.DateTime perfectly does date formatting and much more, 
but I don't want to add another step to the deployment process.



>> It's the equivalent of me asking you:
>> and will you teach me about strings?  Oh, and what's an object?



The answer to this post could be just a function name. I don't think I asked 
about broad concepts such as the object or strings. What I am asking here is 
just a clue.




From laurent.pointal at limsi.fr  Fri Jun  2 10:21:12 2006
From: laurent.pointal at limsi.fr (Laurent Pointal)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 10:21:12 +0200
Subject: How to format datetime values
In-Reply-To: <pKHfg.3008$EF1.231305@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <kHGfg.2994$EF1.230211@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<1149190242.446952.52180@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<pKHfg.3008$EF1.231305@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <e5osdr$ntn$1@upsn250.cri.u-psud.fr>

A.M a ?crit :
> "BartlebyScrivener" <rpdooling at gmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:1149190242.446952.52180 at j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Are you trying to get banned, or what?
>>
>> It's the equivalent of me asking you:
>>
>> Hey, does Ruby have anything like dictionaries and will you teach me
>> about strings?  Oh, and what's an object?
>>
>> Go read the bleeping tutorial.
>>
>> rd
>>
> 
> Well, I did investigate all tutorial and google and I wasn't able to find 
> any built-in way for datetime formatting in Python. 

Really ?

For time formating... have you really really looked at module... 'time'?

> In fact I cannot find
> any way to format a long integer into 99,999,9999 format. I know how
> to format strings with C printf like formatter, but I am sure what I
> am trying to do can't be done with C printf formatting.

For long integer formating like your example, its not direct - maybe
look at locale formating of numbers (module... 'locale').


And I recently annouce the PQRC (on clp.announce), which can gives you
some directions:
	http://www.limsi.fr/Individu/pointal/python/pqrc/


A+

Laurent.


From skip at pobox.com  Thu Jun  1 21:37:51 2006
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:37:51 -0500
Subject: How to format datetime values
In-Reply-To: <kHGfg.2994$EF1.230211@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <kHGfg.2994$EF1.230211@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <17535.16911.954640.438870@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Alan> I have a datetime value and want to format it to "June 1, 2006"
    Alan> shape. How can I do that?

Again, Python's introspection capabilities to the rescue:

    % pydoct datetime
    Help on module datetime:

    NAME
        datetime - Fast implementation of the datetime type.
    ...
        class datetime(date)
         |  datetime(year, month, day[, hour[, minute[, second[, microsecond[,tzinfo]]]]])
         ...
         |  strftime(...)
         |      format -> strftime() style string.

Skip


From paul at eval.ca  Thu Jun  1 21:38:55 2006
From: paul at eval.ca (Paul Osman)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:38:55 -0400
Subject: How to format datetime values
In-Reply-To: <kHGfg.2994$EF1.230211@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <kHGfg.2994$EF1.230211@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <C48E6CE6-F157-4F9B-BD51-2C23091FEB34@eval.ca>

On 1-Jun-06, at 2:55 PM, A.M wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
>
> I have a datetime value and want to format it to "June 1, 2006"  
> shape. How
> can I do that?
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Alan

Why don't you just post the specs to your program and maybe someone  
will write it *FOR* you in less than a day?

This is quicker than waiting for replies:

Python Tutorial
http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html

Module Index
http://docs.python.org/modindex.html

Cheers,

-- 
Paul Osman
http://www.eval.ca


From xivulon at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 21:10:54 2006
From: xivulon at gmail.com (ago)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 12:10:54 -0700
Subject: win32com: how to connect to a specific instance of a running object?
Message-ID: <1149189054.311477.309250@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

Is it possible to use win32com.client to connect to a specific instance
of a running application? In particular I am interested in finding the
instance of excel which has a particular spreadsheet opened considering
that there might be more instances of excel running at the same time. I
need to take a "snapshot" of the spreadsheet which contains live feeds.



From tim.golden at viacom-outdoor.co.uk  Fri Jun  2 09:41:52 2006
From: tim.golden at viacom-outdoor.co.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 08:41:52 +0100
Subject: win32com: how to connect to a specific instance of a running
	object?
Message-ID: <CCAC78D42E32184F8E26DC163DB9830617E212@vogbs009.gb.vo.local>

[ago]

| Is it possible to use win32com.client to connect to a 
| specific instance
| of a running application? In particular I am interested in finding the
| instance of excel which has a particular spreadsheet opened 
| considering
| that there might be more instances of excel running at the 
| same time. I
| need to take a "snapshot" of the spreadsheet which contains 
| live feeds.

Not something I've tried myself, but perhaps this
post/thread might help:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/d985ada28948dcd8

(I cheated slightly when I Googled because I knew that 
GetActiveObject was something to do with the business)
TJG

________________________________________________________________________
This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star. The
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From xivulon at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 15:17:50 2006
From: xivulon at gmail.com (ago)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 06:17:50 -0700
Subject: win32com: how to connect to a specific instance of a running
	object?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6446.1149233965.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6446.1149233965.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149254270.790703.145700@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Thanks, after some further digging I hit something...
The following seems to do the trick:

import win32gui
WINDOW_CLASS = 'XLMAIN'
WINDOW_TITLE = 'Microsoft Excel - MySpreadsheet.xls'
hwindow = win32gui.FindWindow(WINDOW_CLASS,WINDOW_TITLE)

Now the next question is: how do I use the window-handle returned? I
would like to work with a com object like the one returned by
win32com.client.Dispatch('ExcelApplication'). Any hint?

PS I could also use win32ui instead win32gui, in this case I get a
window object instead of an handle. But I still do not know how to
transform it into a nice pythoncom excel object.



From xivulon at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 16:57:33 2006
From: xivulon at gmail.com (ago)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 07:57:33 -0700
Subject: win32com: how to connect to a specific instance of a running
	object?
In-Reply-To: <1149254270.790703.145700@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.6446.1149233965.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149254270.790703.145700@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149260253.337452.65770@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

The other approach I tried (as suggested by Tim, thanks) involves
browsing the ROT.

import pythoncom
SPREADSHEET_NAME = r'\MySpreadsheet.xls'
lenstr = len(SPREADSHEET_NAME)
obj = None
rot = pythoncom.GetRunningObjectTable()
rotenum = rot.EnumRunning()
while True:
	monikers = rotenum.Next()
	if not monikers: break
	ctx = pythoncom.CreateBindCtx(0)
	name = monikers[0].GetDisplayName(ctx, None);
	if name[-lenstr:] == SPREADSHEET_NAME:
		obj = rot.GetObject(monikers[0])
		break

The obj I get is a PyIUnknown... How do I use it?



From xivulon at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 20:40:28 2006
From: xivulon at gmail.com (ago)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 11:40:28 -0700
Subject: win32com: how to connect to a specific instance of a running
	object?
In-Reply-To: <1149260253.337452.65770@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.6446.1149233965.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149254270.790703.145700@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149260253.337452.65770@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149273628.486179.224680@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

solved, if it can be useful to others here is my code:

import pythoncom
import win32com.client

def getWorkbook(workbookName):
	lenstr = len(workbookName)
	workbook = None
	rot = pythoncom.GetRunningObjectTable()
	rotenum = rot.EnumRunning()
	while True:
		monikers = rotenum.Next()
		if not monikers: break
		ctx = pythoncom.CreateBindCtx(0)
		name = monikers[0].GetDisplayName(ctx, None);
		if name[-lenstr:] == workbookName:
			obj = rot.GetObject(monikers[0])
			workbook =
win32com.client.Dispatch(obj.QueryInterface(pythoncom.IID_IDispatch))
	return workbook



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Jun  2 21:15:37 2006
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:15:37 -0400
Subject: win32com: how to connect to a specific instance of a
	runningobject?
References: <mailman.6446.1149233965.27775.python-list@python.org><1149254270.790703.145700@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com><1149260253.337452.65770@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149273628.486179.224680@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5q2op$2n7$1@sea.gmane.org>


"ago" <xivulon at gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1149273628.486179.224680 at h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> solved, if it can be useful to others here is my code:
>
> import pythoncom
> import win32com.client
>
> def getWorkbook(workbookName):
> lenstr = len(workbookName)
> workbook = None
> rot = pythoncom.GetRunningObjectTable()
> rotenum = rot.EnumRunning()
> while True:
> monikers = rotenum.Next()
> if not monikers: break
> ctx = pythoncom.CreateBindCtx(0)
> name = monikers[0].GetDisplayName(ctx, None);
> if name[-lenstr:] == workbookName:
> obj = rot.GetObject(monikers[0])
> workbook =
> win32com.client.Dispatch(obj.QueryInterface(pythoncom.IID_IDispatch))
> return workbook

Perhaps you can submit this to the Python Cookbook at oreilly.com (sp?)






From nicolasg at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 21:19:30 2006
From: nicolasg at gmail.com (nicolasg at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 12:19:30 -0700
Subject: integer to binary...
Message-ID: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

does anyone know a module or something to convert numbers like integer
to binary format ?

for example I want to convert number 7 to 0111 so I can make some
bitwise operations...

Thanks



From uval at rz.uni-karlsruhe.de  Thu Jun  1 21:28:58 2006
From: uval at rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sch=FCle_Daniel?=)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:28:58 +0200
Subject: integer to binary...
In-Reply-To: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5nf5r$mg4$1@news2.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>

nicolasg at gmail.com schrieb:
> does anyone know a module or something to convert numbers like integer
> to binary format ?

unfortunately there is no builtin function for this

 >>> int("111",2)
7
 >>> str(7)
'7'
 >>> str(7,2)
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
TypeError: str() takes at most 1 argument (2 given)
 >>>

int, str are not symmetrical
I hope this will change in future

<rebel on>

you can use Ruby's 7.to_s(2) for this
irb(main):001:0> 7.to_s(2)
=> "111"
irb(main):002:0> 7.to_s(3)
=> "21"
irb(main):003:0>

</rebel on>

> for example I want to convert number 7 to 0111 so I can make some
> bitwise operations...

you can use bitwise operations on int's anyway

7 & 3 == 3
(1 << 20) | (1 << 10) == 2**20+2**10

and so on


From arv.nntp at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 21:36:33 2006
From: arv.nntp at gmail.com (Alexis Roda)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:36:33 +0200
Subject: integer to binary...
In-Reply-To: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5nfi7$8ue$1@nsnmpen2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>

En/na nicolasg at gmail.com ha escrit:
> does anyone know a module or something to convert numbers like integer
> to binary format ?

http://www.google.es/search?q=python+integer+to+binary

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/219300

> for example I want to convert number 7 to 0111 so I can make some
> bitwise operations...

python already provides some bitwise operators:

http://docs.python.org/ref/summary.html



HTH


From grante at visi.com  Thu Jun  1 21:37:13 2006
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 19:37:13 -0000
Subject: integer to binary...
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <127ugf9jgu7av18@corp.supernews.com>

On 2006-06-01, nicolasg at gmail.com <nicolasg at gmail.com> wrote:

> does anyone know a module or something to convert numbers like integer
> to binary format ?

They _are_ in binary format.

> for example I want to convert number 7 to 0111 so I can make some
> bitwise operations...

Just do it:

>>> 7 & 3
3
>>> 7 | 8
15


-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  QUIET!! I'm being
                                  at               CREATIVE!! Is it GREAT
                               visi.com            yet? It's s'posed to SMOKEY
                                                   THE BEAR...


From nicolasg at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 21:42:20 2006
From: nicolasg at gmail.com (nicolasg at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 12:42:20 -0700
Subject: integer to binary...
In-Reply-To: <127ugf9jgu7av18@corp.supernews.com>
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<127ugf9jgu7av18@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <1149190940.548582.27200@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2006-06-01, nicolasg at gmail.com <nicolasg at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > does anyone know a module or something to convert numbers like integer
> > to binary format ?
>
> They _are_ in binary format.
>
> > for example I want to convert number 7 to 0111 so I can make some
> > bitwise operations...
>
> Just do it:
>
> >>> 7 & 3
> 3
> >>> 7 | 8
> 15
>
>
> --
I know I can do that but I need to operate in every bit separeted.
> Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  QUIET!! I'm being
>                                   at               CREATIVE!! Is it GREAT
>                                visi.com            yet? It's s'posed to SMOKEY
>                                                    THE BEAR...



From grante at visi.com  Thu Jun  1 21:56:07 2006
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 19:56:07 -0000
Subject: integer to binary...
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<127ugf9jgu7av18@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149190940.548582.27200@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <127uhinr2nr2jc4@corp.supernews.com>

On 2006-06-01, nicolasg at gmail.com <nicolasg at gmail.com> wrote:

>>> does anyone know a module or something to convert numbers like
>>> integer to binary format ?
>>
>> They _are_ in binary format.
>>
>> > for example I want to convert number 7 to 0111 so I can make some
>> > bitwise operations...
>>
>> Just do it:
>>
>> >>> 7 & 3
>> 3
>> >>> 7 | 8
>> 15
>
> I know I can do that but I need to operate in every bit separeted.

Sorry, I've no clue what that means.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Now KEN is having
                                  at               a MENTAL CRISIS beacuse
                               visi.com            his "R.V." PAYMENTS are
                                                   OVER-DUE!!


From nicolasg at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 21:56:23 2006
From: nicolasg at gmail.com (nicolasg at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 12:56:23 -0700
Subject: integer to binary...
In-Reply-To: <1149190940.548582.27200@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<127ugf9jgu7av18@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149190940.548582.27200@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149191782.973045.215080@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>


nicolasg at gmail.com wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
> > On 2006-06-01, nicolasg at gmail.com <nicolasg at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > does anyone know a module or something to convert numbers like integer
> > > to binary format ?
> >
> > They _are_ in binary format.
> >
> > > for example I want to convert number 7 to 0111 so I can make some
> > > bitwise operations...
> >
> > Just do it:
> >
> > >>> 7 & 3
> > 3
> > >>> 7 | 8
> > 15
> >
> >
this is exactly what I need ->
http://www.daniweb.com/code/snippet285.html

thanks.
> > --
> I know I can do that but I need to operate in every bit separeted.
> > Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  QUIET!! I'm being
> >                                   at               CREATIVE!! Is it GREAT
> >                                visi.com            yet? It's s'posed to SMOKEY
> >                                                    THE BEAR...



From grante at visi.com  Thu Jun  1 22:04:33 2006
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:04:33 -0000
Subject: integer to binary...
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<127ugf9jgu7av18@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149190940.548582.27200@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149191782.973045.215080@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <127ui2hq44ki846@corp.supernews.com>

On 2006-06-01, nicolasg at gmail.com <nicolasg at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>> does anyone know a module or something to convert numbers like integer
>>>> to binary format ?
>>>
>>> They _are_ in binary format.
>>>
>>>> for example I want to convert number 7 to 0111 so I can make
>>>> some bitwise operations...
>>>
>>> Just do it:
>>>
>>> >>> 7 & 3
>>> 3
>>> >>> 7 | 8
>>> 15
>>
> this is exactly what I need -> http://www.daniweb.com/code/snippet285.html

That's nice, but I don't register at web sites like that.

>> I know I can do that but I need to operate in every bit
>> separeted.

I still don't get what you want a binary string for.

I can see wanting a sequence (e.g. array) of boolean values,
but how are you going to do bitwise operations on a binary
string?

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  .. I think I'd
                                  at               better go back to my DESK
                               visi.com            and toy with a few common
                                                   MISAPPREHENSIONS...


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Thu Jun  1 22:02:59 2006
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:02:59 -0500
Subject: integer to binary...
In-Reply-To: <1149190940.548582.27200@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<127ugf9jgu7av18@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149190940.548582.27200@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447F47F3.2030505@tim.thechases.com>

>>> for example I want to convert number 7 to 0111 so I can make some
>>> bitwise operations...
>> Just do it:
>>
>>>>> 7 & 3
>> 3
>>>>> 7 | 8
>> 15
> I know I can do that but I need to operate in every bit separeted.


I suppose there might be other operations for which having them 
as strings could be handy.  E.g. counting bits:

bitCount = len([c for c in "01001010101" if c=="1"])

or parity checking with those counted bits...sure, it can be done 
with the raw stuff, but the operations often tend to be more obscure.

Other reasons for wanting an arbitrary integer in binary might be 
for plain-old-display, especially if it represents bitmap data.

If you just want to operate on each bit, you can iterate over the 
number of bits and shift a single bit to its position:

 >>> target = 10
 >>> shift = 0
 >>> while 1 << shift <= target:
...     print "Bit %i is %i" % (shift,
...		(target & (1 << shift)) >> shift)
...     shift += 1
...
Bit 0 is 0
Bit 1 is 1
Bit 2 is 0
Bit 3 is 1


It's ugly, but it works...

-tkc





From grante at visi.com  Thu Jun  1 22:11:23 2006
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:11:23 -0000
Subject: integer to binary...
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<127ugf9jgu7av18@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149190940.548582.27200@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6428.1149191954.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <127uifbgvsp7va9@corp.supernews.com>

On 2006-06-01, Tim Chase <python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
>>>> for example I want to convert number 7 to 0111 so I can make some
>>>> bitwise operations...
>>> Just do it:
>>>
>>>>>> 7 & 3
>>> 3
>>>>>> 7 | 8
>>> 15
>> I know I can do that but I need to operate in every bit separeted.
>
>
> I suppose there might be other operations for which having them 
> as strings could be handy.  E.g. counting bits:
>
> bitCount = len([c for c in "01001010101" if c=="1"])
>
> or parity checking with those counted bits...sure, it can be done 
> with the raw stuff, but the operations often tend to be more obscure.

I would think an array or list of bits would be a lot more
useful for doing "bitwise operations":

bitCount = sum([0,1,0,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1])
parity = reduce(operator.xor,[0,1,0,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1])

> Other reasons for wanting an arbitrary integer in binary might be 
> for plain-old-display, especially if it represents bitmap data.

Yes. I thought C should have had a %b format since the
beginning, but nobody listens. But that's not
what the OP said he wanted it for.  

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Now I'm concentrating
                                  at               on a specific tank battle
                               visi.com            toward the end of World
                                                   War II!


From siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk  Fri Jun  2 17:14:56 2006
From: siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk (Sion Arrowsmith)
Date: 02 Jun 2006 16:14:56 +0100 (BST)
Subject: integer to binary...
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<127ugf9jgu7av18@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149190940.548582.27200@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6428.1149191954.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0Oh*8vbir@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

Tim Chase  <python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
>bitCount = len([c for c in "01001010101" if c=="1"])

bitCount = "01001010101".count("1")

-- 
\S -- siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
  ___  |  "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
  \X/  |    -- Arthur C. Clarke
   her nu become? se bera eadward ofdun hl?ddre heafdes b?ce bump bump bump


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Sat Jun  3 01:58:33 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 01:58:33 +0200
Subject: integer to binary...
In-Reply-To: <1149190940.548582.27200@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<127ugf9jgu7av18@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149190940.548582.27200@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4480a11b$0$6172$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

nicolasg at gmail.com a ?crit :
> Grant Edwards wrote:
> 
>>On 2006-06-01, nicolasg at gmail.com <nicolasg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>does anyone know a module or something to convert numbers like integer
>>>to binary format ?
>>
>>They _are_ in binary format.
>>
>>
>>>for example I want to convert number 7 to 0111 so I can make some
>>>bitwise operations...
>>
>>Just do it:
>>
>>
>>>>>7 & 3
>>
>>3
>>
>>>>>7 | 8
>>
>>15
>>
>>
>>--
> 
> I know I can do that but I need to operate in every bit separeted.

Could you explain the difference ?


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Sat Jun  3 01:56:03 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 01:56:03 +0200
Subject: integer to binary...
In-Reply-To: <127ugf9jgu7av18@corp.supernews.com>
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<127ugf9jgu7av18@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <4480a084$0$6172$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

Grant Edwards a ?crit :
> On 2006-06-01, nicolasg at gmail.com <nicolasg at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>does anyone know a module or something to convert numbers like integer
>>to binary format ?
> 
> 
> They _are_ in binary format.

Not really.

>>> (7).__class__
<type 'int'>
>>> dir((7))
['__abs__', '__add__', '__and__', '__class__', '__cmp__', '__coerce__',
'__delattr__', '__div__', '__divmod__', '__doc__', '__float__',
'__floordiv__', '__getattribute__', '__getnewargs__', '__hash__',
'__hex__', '__init__', '__int__', '__invert__', '__long__',
'__lshift__', '__mod__', '__mul__', '__neg__', '__new__', '__nonzero__',
'__oct__', '__or__', '__pos__', '__pow__', '__radd__', '__rand__',
'__rdiv__', '__rdivmod__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__',
'__rfloordiv__', '__rlshift__', '__rmod__', '__rmul__', '__ror__',
'__rpow__', '__rrshift__', '__rshift__', '__rsub__', '__rtruediv__',
'__rxor__', '__setattr__', '__str__', '__sub__', '__truediv__', '__xor__']
>>>


From grante at visi.com  Sat Jun  3 17:06:16 2006
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 15:06:16 -0000
Subject: integer to binary...
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<127ugf9jgu7av18@corp.supernews.com>
	<4480a084$0$6172$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <12839b8doin7mff@corp.supernews.com>

On 2006-06-02, Bruno Desthuilliers <bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr> wrote:
> Grant Edwards a ?crit :
>> On 2006-06-01, nicolasg at gmail.com <nicolasg at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>does anyone know a module or something to convert numbers like integer
>>>to binary format ?
>> 
>> 
>> They _are_ in binary format.
>
> Not really.

Yes, really.  Otherwise the bitwise boolean operations you
demonstrated wouldn't work as shown.

>>>> (7).__class__
><type 'int'>
>>>> dir((7))
> ['__abs__', '__add__', '__and__', '__class__', '__cmp__', '__coerce__',
> '__delattr__', '__div__', '__divmod__', '__doc__', '__float__',
> '__floordiv__', '__getattribute__', '__getnewargs__', '__hash__',
> '__hex__', '__init__', '__int__', '__invert__', '__long__',
> '__lshift__', '__mod__', '__mul__', '__neg__', '__new__', '__nonzero__',
> '__oct__', '__or__', '__pos__', '__pow__', '__radd__', '__rand__',
> '__rdiv__', '__rdivmod__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__',
> '__rfloordiv__', '__rlshift__', '__rmod__', '__rmul__', '__ror__',
> '__rpow__', '__rrshift__', '__rshift__', '__rsub__', '__rtruediv__',
> '__rxor__', '__setattr__', '__str__', '__sub__', '__truediv__', '__xor__']
>>>>

The fact that they impliment the xor operator is pretty much
proof that integers are stored in binary format -- xor is only
defined for binary numbers.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  ... Blame it on the
                                  at               BOSSA NOVA!!!
                               visi.com            


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sat Jun  3 17:20:09 2006
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 10:20:09 -0500
Subject: integer to binary...
In-Reply-To: <12839b8doin7mff@corp.supernews.com>
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<127ugf9jgu7av18@corp.supernews.com>	<4480a084$0$6172$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
	<12839b8doin7mff@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <4481A8A9.4030902@tim.thechases.com>

> The fact that they impliment the xor operator is pretty much
> proof that integers are stored in binary format -- xor is only
> defined for binary numbers.

Um...let's not use bad logic/proofs for evidencing this...

 >>> hasattr(set(), "__xor__")
True

:)

-tkc





From grante at visi.com  Sat Jun  3 19:18:21 2006
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 17:18:21 -0000
Subject: integer to binary...
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<127ugf9jgu7av18@corp.supernews.com>
	<4480a084$0$6172$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
	<12839b8doin7mff@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.6500.1149348063.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1283h2t81mdn697@corp.supernews.com>

On 2006-06-03, Tim Chase <python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
>> The fact that they impliment the xor operator is pretty much
>> proof that integers are stored in binary format -- xor is only
>> defined for binary numbers.
>
> Um...let's not use bad logic/proofs for evidencing this...
>
> >>> hasattr(set(), "__xor__")
> True

Sets aren't numbers.  Perhaps I should have phrased it better:
xor is only defined for numbers if they are represented in
binary.  If numbers were represented in something other than
binary, then an xor operation on those numbers wouldn't make
sense.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  .. I want to perform
                                  at               cranial activities with
                               visi.com            Tuesday Weld!!


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Mon Jun  5 05:11:36 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 05:11:36 +0200
Subject: integer to binary...
In-Reply-To: <12839b8doin7mff@corp.supernews.com>
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<127ugf9jgu7av18@corp.supernews.com>
	<4480a084$0$6172$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
	<12839b8doin7mff@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <4483714c$0$27378$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

Grant Edwards a ?crit :
> On 2006-06-02, Bruno Desthuilliers <bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr> wrote:
> 
>>Grant Edwards a ?crit :
>>
>>>On 2006-06-01, nicolasg at gmail.com <nicolasg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>does anyone know a module or something to convert numbers like integer
>>>>to binary format ?
>>>
>>>They _are_ in binary format.
>>
>>Not really.
> 
> Yes, really.

No, not really.

>  Otherwise the bitwise boolean operations you
> demonstrated wouldn't work as shown.

Ho yes ?

> 
>>>>>(7).__class__
>>
>><type 'int'>
>>
>>>>>dir((7))
>>
>>['__abs__', '__add__', '__and__', '__class__', '__cmp__', '__coerce__',
>>'__delattr__', '__div__', '__divmod__', '__doc__', '__float__',
>>'__floordiv__', '__getattribute__', '__getnewargs__', '__hash__',
>>'__hex__', '__init__', '__int__', '__invert__', '__long__',
>>'__lshift__', '__mod__', '__mul__', '__neg__', '__new__', '__nonzero__',
>>'__oct__', '__or__', '__pos__', '__pow__', '__radd__', '__rand__',
>>'__rdiv__', '__rdivmod__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__',
>>'__rfloordiv__', '__rlshift__', '__rmod__', '__rmul__', '__ror__',
>>'__rpow__', '__rrshift__', '__rshift__', '__rsub__', '__rtruediv__',
>>'__rxor__', '__setattr__', '__str__', '__sub__', '__truediv__', '__xor__']
>>
> 
> The fact that they impliment the xor operator is pretty much
> proof that integers are

... objects, instance of the int class. Not really what I'd call "binary 
format" !-)

Now if you go that way, it's of course true that everything on a 
computer ends up in a binary format.... It's true.

> stored in binary format -- xor is only
> defined for binary numbers.
> 
class Prisonner(object):
   def __xor__(self, other):
     return "I'm not a (binary) number, I'm a free man"

The fact that an object implements the xor operator is pretty much proof 
that the guy that wrote the class decided to implement the xor operator !-)

Grant, I of course agree that, *for practical means*, one can consider 
that Python's integer are "already in binary format" - for a definition 
of "binary format" being "you can do bitwise ops on them". But the truth 
is that Python integers are objects (in the OO meaning) holding integer 
values - not integer values themselves.


From anton.vredegoor at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 21:54:45 2006
From: anton.vredegoor at gmail.com (Anton Vredegoor)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:54:45 +0200
Subject: integer to binary...
In-Reply-To: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447f4610@news.henrynet.se>

nicolasg at gmail.com wrote:

> does anyone know a module or something to convert numbers like integer
> to binary format ?
> 
> for example I want to convert number 7 to 0111 so I can make some
> bitwise operations...

  >>> def bits(i,n):
	 return tuple((0,1)[i>>j & 1] for j in xrange(n-1,-1,-1))

  >>> bits(7,4)
  (0, 1, 1, 1)

Anton


From mensanator at aol.com  Thu Jun  1 23:25:10 2006
From: mensanator at aol.com (mensanator at aol.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 14:25:10 -0700
Subject: integer to binary...
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149197110.225383.107770@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>


nicolasg at gmail.com wrote:
> does anyone know a module or something to convert numbers like integer
> to binary format ?
>
> for example I want to convert number 7 to 0111 so I can make some
> bitwise operations...
>
> Thanks

Use the gmpy module.

>>> import gmpy
>>> a = 14
>>> b = 7
>>> c = 8

>>> help(gmpy.digits)
Help on built-in function digits:

digits(...)
    digits(x[,base]): returns Python string representing x in the
    given base (2 to 36, default 10 if omitted or 0); leading '-'
    present if x<0, but no leading '+' if x>=0. x must be an mpz,
    or else gets coerced into one.

>>> print gmpy.digits(a,2)
1110
>>> print gmpy.digits(b,2)
111
>>> print gmpy.digits(c,2)
1000


>>> help(gmpy.setbit)
Help on built-in function setbit:

setbit(...)
    setbit(x,n,v=1): returns a copy of the value of x, with bit n set
    to value v; n must be an ordinary Python int, >=0; v, 0 or !=0;
    x must be an mpz, or else gets coerced to one.

>>> d = gmpy.setbit(c,1,1)
>>> print gmpy.digits(d,2)
1010



>>> help(gmpy.scan1)
Help on built-in function scan1:

scan1(...)
    scan1(x, n=0): returns the bit-index of the first 1-bit of x (that
    is at least n); n must be an ordinary Python int, >=0.  If no more
    1-bits are in x at or above bit-index n (which can only happen for
    x>=0, notionally extended with infinite 0-bits), None is returned.
    x must be an mpz, or else gets coerced to one.

>>> help(gmpy.scan0)
Help on built-in function scan0:

scan0(...)
    scan0(x, n=0): returns the bit-index of the first 0-bit of x (that
    is at least n); n must be an ordinary Python int, >=0.  If no more
    0-bits are in x at or above bit-index n (which can only happen for
    x<0, notionally extended with infinite 1-bits), None is returned.
    x must be an mpz, or else gets coerced to one.

>>> print gmpy.scan1(a)
1
>>> print gmpy.scan1(b)
0
>>> print gmpy.scan1(c)
3
>>> print gmpy.scan1(d)
1
>>> print gmpy.scan0(a)
0
>>> print gmpy.scan0(b)
3
>>> print gmpy.scan0(c)
0
>>> print gmpy.scan0(d)
0

>>> help(gmpy.popcount)
Help on built-in function popcount:

popcount(...)
    popcount(x): returns the number of 1-bits set in x; note that
    this is 'infinite' if x<0, and in that case, -1 is returned.
    x must be an mpz, or else gets coerced to one.

>>> print gmpy.popcount(a)
3
>>> print gmpy.popcount(b)
3
>>> print gmpy.popcount(c)
1
>>> print gmpy.popcount(d)
2


>>> help(gmpy.hamdist)
Help on built-in function hamdist:

hamdist(...)
    hamdist(x,y): returns the Hamming distance (number of bit-positions
    where the bits differ) between x and y.  x and y must be mpz, or
else
    get coerced to mpz.

>>> print gmpy.hamdist(a,b)
2
>>> print gmpy.hamdist(a,c)
2
>>> print gmpy.hamdist(a,d)
1
>>> print gmpy.hamdist(b,c)
4
>>> print gmpy.hamdist(b,d)
3
>>> print gmpy.hamdist(c,d)
1



From claudio.grondi at freenet.de  Fri Jun  2 16:08:25 2006
From: claudio.grondi at freenet.de (Claudio Grondi)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 16:08:25 +0200
Subject: integer to binary...
In-Reply-To: <1149197110.225383.107770@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149197110.225383.107770@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5pgok$4kj$1@newsreader2.netcologne.de>

mensanator at aol.com wrote:
> nicolasg at gmail.com wrote:
> 
>>does anyone know a module or something to convert numbers like integer
>>to binary format ?
>>
>>for example I want to convert number 7 to 0111 so I can make some
>>bitwise operations...
>>
>>Thanks
> 
> 
> Use the gmpy module.
> 
> 
>>>>import gmpy
>>>>a = 14
>>>>b = 7
>>>>c = 8
> 
> 
>>>>help(gmpy.digits)
> 
> Help on built-in function digits:
> 
> digits(...)
>     digits(x[,base]): returns Python string representing x in the
>     given base (2 to 36, default 10 if omitted or 0); leading '-'
>     present if x<0, but no leading '+' if x>=0. x must be an mpz,
>     or else gets coerced into one.
> 
> 
>>>>print gmpy.digits(a,2)
> 
> 1110
> 
>>>>print gmpy.digits(b,2)
> 
> 111
> 
>>>>print gmpy.digits(c,2)
> 
> 1000
> 
> 
> 
>>>>help(gmpy.setbit)
> 
> Help on built-in function setbit:
> 
> setbit(...)
>     setbit(x,n,v=1): returns a copy of the value of x, with bit n set
>     to value v; n must be an ordinary Python int, >=0; v, 0 or !=0;
>     x must be an mpz, or else gets coerced to one.
> 
> 
>>>>d = gmpy.setbit(c,1,1)
>>>>print gmpy.digits(d,2)
> 
> 1010
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>>>help(gmpy.scan1)
> 
> Help on built-in function scan1:
> 
> scan1(...)
>     scan1(x, n=0): returns the bit-index of the first 1-bit of x (that
>     is at least n); n must be an ordinary Python int, >=0.  If no more
>     1-bits are in x at or above bit-index n (which can only happen for
>     x>=0, notionally extended with infinite 0-bits), None is returned.
>     x must be an mpz, or else gets coerced to one.
> 
> 
>>>>help(gmpy.scan0)
> 
> Help on built-in function scan0:
> 
> scan0(...)
>     scan0(x, n=0): returns the bit-index of the first 0-bit of x (that
>     is at least n); n must be an ordinary Python int, >=0.  If no more
>     0-bits are in x at or above bit-index n (which can only happen for
>     x<0, notionally extended with infinite 1-bits), None is returned.
>     x must be an mpz, or else gets coerced to one.
> 
> 
>>>>print gmpy.scan1(a)
> 
> 1
> 
>>>>print gmpy.scan1(b)
> 
> 0
> 
>>>>print gmpy.scan1(c)
> 
> 3
> 
>>>>print gmpy.scan1(d)
> 
> 1
> 
>>>>print gmpy.scan0(a)
> 
> 0
> 
>>>>print gmpy.scan0(b)
> 
> 3
> 
>>>>print gmpy.scan0(c)
> 
> 0
> 
>>>>print gmpy.scan0(d)
> 
> 0
> 
> 
>>>>help(gmpy.popcount)
> 
> Help on built-in function popcount:
> 
> popcount(...)
>     popcount(x): returns the number of 1-bits set in x; note that
>     this is 'infinite' if x<0, and in that case, -1 is returned.
>     x must be an mpz, or else gets coerced to one.
> 
> 
>>>>print gmpy.popcount(a)
> 
> 3
> 
>>>>print gmpy.popcount(b)
> 
> 3
> 
>>>>print gmpy.popcount(c)
> 
> 1
> 
>>>>print gmpy.popcount(d)
> 
> 2
> 
> 
> 
>>>>help(gmpy.hamdist)
> 
> Help on built-in function hamdist:
> 
> hamdist(...)
>     hamdist(x,y): returns the Hamming distance (number of bit-positions
>     where the bits differ) between x and y.  x and y must be mpz, or
> else
>     get coerced to mpz.
> 
> 
>>>>print gmpy.hamdist(a,b)
> 
> 2
> 
>>>>print gmpy.hamdist(a,c)
> 
> 2
> 
>>>>print gmpy.hamdist(a,d)
> 
> 1
> 
>>>>print gmpy.hamdist(b,c)
> 
> 4
> 
>>>>print gmpy.hamdist(b,d)
> 
> 3
> 
>>>>print gmpy.hamdist(c,d)
> 
> 1
> 
For those digging deeper into this subject who are looking for speed, 
reading the past discussion on this newsgroup I was part of myself 
looking for fastest way of such integer to binary conversion can maybe 
be of interest:
   http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2006-January/319295.html
(includes full source code of all compared approaches)

Claudio


From johnjsal at NOSPAMgmail.com  Fri Jun  2 17:15:34 2006
From: johnjsal at NOSPAMgmail.com (John Salerno)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:15:34 GMT
Subject: integer to binary...
In-Reply-To: <1149197110.225383.107770@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149197110.225383.107770@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <qCYfg.2221$No6.47467@news.tufts.edu>

mensanator at aol.com wrote:

> Use the gmpy module.

Yes, it's good. :)


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Sat Jun  3 01:53:43 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 01:53:43 +0200
Subject: integer to binary...
In-Reply-To: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149189570.376091.319890@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <44809ff9$0$6172$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

nicolasg at gmail.com a ?crit :
> does anyone know a module or something to convert numbers like integer
> to binary format ?
 >
> for example I want to convert number 7 to 0111 so I can make some
> bitwise operations...

You don't need to convert anything. The bitwise ops are &, |, <<, >>

0 | 2 | 4
-> 6
6 & 2
-> 2
2 << 4
-> 32
8 >> 1
-> 4




From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Thu Jun  1 21:32:58 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:32:58 -0400
Subject: Using print instead of file.write(str)
Message-ID: <ueHfg.2999$EF1.230590@news20.bellglobal.com>

Hi,



I found print much more flexible that write method. Can I use print instead 
of file.write method?



Thank you,

Alan




From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Fri Jun  2 01:45:36 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:45:36 +0200
Subject: Using print instead of file.write(str)
In-Reply-To: <ueHfg.2999$EF1.230590@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <ueHfg.2999$EF1.230590@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <447f4c9a$0$6174$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

A.M a ?crit :
> Hi,
> 
> 
> I found print much more flexible that write method. Can I use print instead 
> of file.write method?
> 

f = open("/path/to/file")
print >> f, "this is my %s message" % "first"
f.close()

To print to stderr:

import sys
print >> sys.stderr, "oops"

FWIW, you and use string formating anywhere, not only in print statements:

s = "some %s and % formating" % ("nice", "cool")
print s

You can also use "dict formating":

names = {"other": "A.M.", "me" : "bruno"}
s = "hello %(other)s, my name is %(me)s" % names


From joncle at googlemail.com  Thu Jun  1 23:33:21 2006
From: joncle at googlemail.com (Jon Clements)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 14:33:21 -0700
Subject: Using print instead of file.write(str)
In-Reply-To: <447f4c9a$0$6174$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
References: <ueHfg.2999$EF1.230590@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<447f4c9a$0$6174$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <1149197601.238826.151200@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

Didn't know of the >> syntax:  lovely to know about it Bruno - thank
you.

To the OP - I find the print statement useful for something like:
print 'this','is','a','test'
>>> 'this is a test'
(with implicit newline and implicit spacing between parameters)

If you want more control (more flexibility, perhaps?) over the
formatting of the output: be it spacing between parameters or newline
control, use the methods Bruno describes below.

I'm not sure if you can suppress the spacing between elements (would
love to be corrected though); to stop the implicit newline use
something like
print 'testing',
>>> 'testing'
(but - with the leading comma, the newline is suppressed)

I personally find that print is convenient for sentences (or writing
'lines').

Thought it worth pointing this out in case, like some I know, you come
across a cropper with certain output streams.

All the best,

Jon.



Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
> A.M a ?crit :
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> > I found print much more flexible that write method. Can I use print instead
> > of file.write method?
> >
>
> f = open("/path/to/file")
> print >> f, "this is my %s message" % "first"
> f.close()
>
> To print to stderr:
>
> import sys
> print >> sys.stderr, "oops"
>
> FWIW, you and use string formating anywhere, not only in print statements:
>
> s = "some %s and % formating" % ("nice", "cool")
> print s
>
> You can also use "dict formating":
>
> names = {"other": "A.M.", "me" : "bruno"}
> s = "hello %(other)s, my name is %(me)s" % names



From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Thu Jun  1 23:45:02 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:45:02 -0400
Subject: Using print instead of file.write(str)
References: <ueHfg.2999$EF1.230590@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<447f4c9a$0$6174$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
	<1149197601.238826.151200@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <iaJfg.3045$EF1.233617@news20.bellglobal.com>

Yes, it saved my time big time.

Thank you Bruno.



I use the print >>>file to generate HTML files. print is very flexible and 
nice.



The dictionary formatting that Brunto said is awesome!



Thanks again,

Alan





"Jon Clements" <joncle at googlemail.com> wrote in message 
news:1149197601.238826.151200 at f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Didn't know of the >> syntax:  lovely to know about it Bruno - thank
you.

To the OP - I find the print statement useful for something like:
print 'this','is','a','test'
>>> 'this is a test'
(with implicit newline and implicit spacing between parameters)

If you want more control (more flexibility, perhaps?) over the
formatting of the output: be it spacing between parameters or newline
control, use the methods Bruno describes below.

I'm not sure if you can suppress the spacing between elements (would
love to be corrected though); to stop the implicit newline use
something like
print 'testing',
>>> 'testing'
(but - with the leading comma, the newline is suppressed)

I personally find that print is convenient for sentences (or writing
'lines').

Thought it worth pointing this out in case, like some I know, you come
across a cropper with certain output streams.

All the best,

Jon.



Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
> A.M a ?crit :
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> > I found print much more flexible that write method. Can I use print 
> > instead
> > of file.write method?
> >
>
> f = open("/path/to/file")
> print >> f, "this is my %s message" % "first"
> f.close()
>
> To print to stderr:
>
> import sys
> print >> sys.stderr, "oops"
>
> FWIW, you and use string formating anywhere, not only in print statements:
>
> s = "some %s and % formating" % ("nice", "cool")
> print s
>
> You can also use "dict formating":
>
> names = {"other": "A.M.", "me" : "bruno"}
> s = "hello %(other)s, my name is %(me)s" % names




From joncle at googlemail.com  Thu Jun  1 23:49:53 2006
From: joncle at googlemail.com (Jon Clements)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 14:49:53 -0700
Subject: Using print instead of file.write(str)
In-Reply-To: <1149197601.238826.151200@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <ueHfg.2999$EF1.230590@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<447f4c9a$0$6174$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
	<1149197601.238826.151200@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149198592.996237.116760@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

I meant 'trailing': not leading.

mea culpa.

Jon.

Jon Clements wrote:
> Didn't know of the >> syntax:  lovely to know about it Bruno - thank
> you.
>
> To the OP - I find the print statement useful for something like:
> print 'this','is','a','test'
> >>> 'this is a test'
> (with implicit newline and implicit spacing between parameters)
>
> If you want more control (more flexibility, perhaps?) over the
> formatting of the output: be it spacing between parameters or newline
> control, use the methods Bruno describes below.
>
> I'm not sure if you can suppress the spacing between elements (would
> love to be corrected though); to stop the implicit newline use
> something like
> print 'testing',
> >>> 'testing'
> (but - with the leading comma, the newline is suppressed)
>
> I personally find that print is convenient for sentences (or writing
> 'lines').
>
> Thought it worth pointing this out in case, like some I know, you come
> across a cropper with certain output streams.
>
> All the best,
>
> Jon.
>
>
>
> Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
> > A.M a ?crit :
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > >
> > > I found print much more flexible that write method. Can I use print instead
> > > of file.write method?
> > >
> >
> > f = open("/path/to/file")
> > print >> f, "this is my %s message" % "first"
> > f.close()
> >
> > To print to stderr:
> >
> > import sys
> > print >> sys.stderr, "oops"
> >
> > FWIW, you and use string formating anywhere, not only in print statements:
> >
> > s = "some %s and % formating" % ("nice", "cool")
> > print s
> >
> > You can also use "dict formating":
> >
> > names = {"other": "A.M.", "me" : "bruno"}
> > s = "hello %(other)s, my name is %(me)s" % names



From siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk  Fri Jun  2 17:30:22 2006
From: siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk (Sion Arrowsmith)
Date: 02 Jun 2006 16:30:22 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Using print instead of file.write(str)
References: <ueHfg.2999$EF1.230590@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <2Iq*Jzbir@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

A.M <alanalan at newsgroup.nospam> wrote:
>I found print much more flexible that write method.

"more flexible"? More convenient, yes. More powerful, maybe. But I
don't see more flexible. Everything print can to stdout.write() can
do. The reverse isn't true. eg (this appears to be a FAQ on this
group, although I can't find it in the FAQ):

for x in range(10):
    sys.stdout.write(str(x))

to print:

0123456789

-- 
\S -- siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
  ___  |  "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
  \X/  |    -- Arthur C. Clarke
   her nu become? se bera eadward ofdun hl?ddre heafdes b?ce bump bump bump


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Sat Jun  3 01:47:45 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 01:47:45 +0200
Subject: Using print instead of file.write(str)
In-Reply-To: <2Iq*Jzbir@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
References: <ueHfg.2999$EF1.230590@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<2Iq*Jzbir@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Message-ID: <44809e93$0$13657$636a55ce@news.free.fr>

Sion Arrowsmith a ?crit :
> A.M <alanalan at newsgroup.nospam> wrote:
> 
>>I found print much more flexible that write method.
> 
> 
> "more flexible"? More convenient, yes. More powerful, maybe. But I
> don't see more flexible. Everything print can to stdout.write() can
> do. The reverse isn't true. eg (this appears to be a FAQ on this
> group, although I can't find it in the FAQ):
> 
> for x in range(10):
>     sys.stdout.write(str(x))
> 
> to print:
> 
> 0123456789
> 


The reverse isn't true ???

   print "".join(str(x) for x in range(10))

(which BTW should be faster, since it's only one I/O, instead of ten 
with your version.)

Now, given:

   bird = "parrot"
   beautiful = "dead"

How would you do the following with f.write() ?

   print "this", bird, "is", beautiful

(without using string formating, of course...)


From timr at probo.com  Sun Jun  4 01:06:12 2006
From: timr at probo.com (Tim Roberts)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 23:06:12 GMT
Subject: Using print instead of file.write(str)
References: <ueHfg.2999$EF1.230590@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<2Iq*Jzbir@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<44809e93$0$13657$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <1d5482dibl4b4or8d4fkd90pd17ml3st2p@4ax.com>

Bruno Desthuilliers <bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr> wrote:

>Sion Arrowsmith a ?crit :
>> A.M <alanalan at newsgroup.nospam> wrote:
>> 
>>>I found print much more flexible that write method.
>> 
>> "more flexible"? More convenient, yes. More powerful, maybe. But I
>> don't see more flexible. Everything print can to stdout.write() can
>> do. The reverse isn't true. eg (this appears to be a FAQ on this
>> group, although I can't find it in the FAQ):
>> 
>> for x in range(10):
>>     sys.stdout.write(str(x))
>> 
>> to print:
>> 
>> 0123456789
>
>The reverse isn't true ???
>
>   print "".join(str(x) for x in range(10))

What he meant it that it is impossible to produce "0123456789" using 10
separate print statements, while it IS possible with 10 separate writes.
-- 
- Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
  Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.


From aleax at mac.com  Sun Jun  4 02:03:01 2006
From: aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 17:03:01 -0700
Subject: Using print instead of file.write(str)
References: <ueHfg.2999$EF1.230590@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<2Iq*Jzbir@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<44809e93$0$13657$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
	<1d5482dibl4b4or8d4fkd90pd17ml3st2p@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1hgd8io.infymkfhpuerN%aleax@mac.com>

Tim Roberts <timr at probo.com> wrote:

> Bruno Desthuilliers <bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr> wrote:
> 
> >Sion Arrowsmith a ?crit :
> >> A.M <alanalan at newsgroup.nospam> wrote:
> >> 
> >>>I found print much more flexible that write method.
> >> 
> >> "more flexible"? More convenient, yes. More powerful, maybe. But I
> >> don't see more flexible. Everything print can to stdout.write() can
> >> do. The reverse isn't true. eg (this appears to be a FAQ on this
> >> group, although I can't find it in the FAQ):
> >> 
> >> for x in range(10):
> >>     sys.stdout.write(str(x))
> >> 
> >> to print:
> >> 
> >> 0123456789
> >
> >The reverse isn't true ???
> >
> >   print "".join(str(x) for x in range(10))
> 
> What he meant it that it is impossible to produce "0123456789" using 10
> separate print statements, while it IS possible with 10 separate writes.

it's not quite impossible, just cumbersome:

>>> for x in range(10):
...   print x,
...   sys.stdout.softspace=0
... 
0123456789>>> 

Yes, you do need the softspace assignments -- but then, in the write
version you need the explicit str calls, so it's not as if in either
case you're using "just" the print or write-call.

The differences in terms of convenience are surely there (in different
circumstances they will favor one or the other of the two approaches),
but I don't see such differences in either flexibility or power (if one
ignores the issue of convenience, the same tasks can be performed with
either approach).


Alex


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Mon Jun  5 04:49:45 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 04:49:45 +0200
Subject: Using print instead of file.write(str)
In-Reply-To: <1d5482dibl4b4or8d4fkd90pd17ml3st2p@4ax.com>
References: <ueHfg.2999$EF1.230590@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<2Iq*Jzbir@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<44809e93$0$13657$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
	<1d5482dibl4b4or8d4fkd90pd17ml3st2p@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <44836c2c$0$13039$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

Tim Roberts a ?crit :
> Bruno Desthuilliers <bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Sion Arrowsmith a ?crit :
>>
(snip)
>>>"more flexible"? More convenient, yes. More powerful, maybe. But I
>>>don't see more flexible. Everything print can to stdout.write() can
>>>do. The reverse isn't true. eg (this appears to be a FAQ on this
>>>group, although I can't find it in the FAQ):
>>>
>>>for x in range(10):
>>>    sys.stdout.write(str(x))
>>>
>>>to print:
>>>
>>>0123456789
>>
>>The reverse isn't true ???
>>
>>  print "".join(str(x) for x in range(10))
>  
> What he meant it that it is impossible to produce "0123456789" using 10
> separate print statements, while it IS possible with 10 separate writes.

why on earth would someone try to use 10 consecutive I/O operations on 
the same stream when it can be done with 1 ???


From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Sun Jun  4 04:52:49 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 12:52:49 +1000
Subject: Using print instead of file.write(str)
In-Reply-To: <44809e93$0$13657$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
References: <ueHfg.2999$EF1.230590@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<2Iq*Jzbir@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<44809e93$0$13657$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <44824B01.3040806@lexicon.net>

On 3/06/2006 9:47 AM, Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:

> 
> Now, given:
> 
>   bird = "parrot"
>   beautiful = "dead"
> 
> How would you do the following with f.write() ?
> 
>   print "this", bird, "is", beautiful
> 
> (without using string formating, of course...)

Like this:

f.write((' '.join(str(x) for x in ['this', bird, 'is', beautiful]) + '\n'))

... or was that a rhetorical question?

Cheers,
John


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Mon Jun  5 04:52:51 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 04:52:51 +0200
Subject: Using print instead of file.write(str)
In-Reply-To: <44824B01.3040806@lexicon.net>
References: <ueHfg.2999$EF1.230590@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<2Iq*Jzbir@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<44809e93$0$13657$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
	<44824B01.3040806@lexicon.net>
Message-ID: <44836ce6$0$13039$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

John Machin a ?crit :
(snip)
> ... or was that a rhetorical question?

It was.


From jorgen.stenarson at bostream.nu  Thu Jun  1 21:58:06 2006
From: jorgen.stenarson at bostream.nu (jorgen stenarson)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 12:58:06 -0700
Subject: pyreadline 1.3 release (was UNC readline)
Message-ID: <1149191886.302736.327180@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


We are happy to announce the release of pyreadline 1.3. Pyreadline is
based on UNC readline by Gary Bishop. UNC readline is not being
developed further by Gary, and PyReadline can be considered the
continuation of that project. This was done in full agreement with
Gary, given his current development priorities.

Pyreadline is maintained by the ipython project
(http://projects.scipy.org/ipython/ipython/wiki/PyReadline/Intro).

New features:

    * Support for international characters (if you have the correct
codepage active)
    * Copy and paste using the clipboard
    * Smart paste for convenient use with ipython. Converting tab
separated data to python list or numpy array. Converting file paths to
use / and escaping any spaces using \ .
    * Pasting of multiline code removing empty lines

Get it at: http://ipython.scipy.org/dist/pyreadline-1.3.win32.exe.
Installations instructions are available on the pyreadline wiki.

Once again we would like to thank Gary for creating this readline
package.

/pyreadline team



From jcrocholl at googlemail.com  Thu Jun  1 22:14:41 2006
From: jcrocholl at googlemail.com (Johann C. Rocholl)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 13:14:41 -0700
Subject: XML-RPC server with xmlrpclib and mod_python
Message-ID: <1149192881.683913.308240@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

Hi all,

I'm wondering what would be the best way to write an XML-RPC server
using mod_python with Apache 2.0. I want the mod_python environment
because the rest of my project is web-based, and Apache gives me
multi-threading and everything.

My first attempt implements XML-RPC introspection. Please have a look
at the following files and give me a rigorous critique. All comments
are welcome, even about coding style and module design.

My handler for incoming mod_python requests:
http://trac.browsershots.org/browser/trunk/shotserver/lib/xmlrpc/__init__.py

The introspection module (I plan to have more modules in that folder):
http://trac.browsershots.org/browser/trunk/shotserver/lib/xmlrpc/system.py

A simple standalone test client:
http://trac.browsershots.org/browser/trunk/shotserver/scripts/xmlrpc_help.py

Are there any existing interfaces to use xmlrpclib with mod_python?
Are there any security issues that I should be aware of when
implementing XML-RPC?

Thanks in advance,
Johann



From rabkinDELETE at mweb.co.za  Thu Jun  1 22:35:17 2006
From: rabkinDELETE at mweb.co.za (Max)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:35:17 +0200
Subject: if not CGI:
Message-ID: <pJKdnaS3EZIV0uLZRVn-pg@is.co.za>

I've never done anything on the web. I mean, never developed anything. 
(I've got accounts on dA and wikipedia and half-a-dozen other things; I 
know HTML and enough JavaScript to hack away at it when friends need help).

Mostly because I've never had anything worth doing: I've written a set 
of python CGI programs (an eCards site) and set up apache, just because 
I wanted to learn how. It used raw files; no database. And it sits 
there, working just about flawlessly, at http://localhost/maxecards/. 
I've even done a minor security audit, just to learn how (I met a hacker 
and he impressed me).

But now I'm ready to do it in the real world. Nothing complicated, but a 
real project. And I have to choose my tools. Zope, Plone, Django, what 
are these? I don't have to stick with Python, although it's my preferred 
language. I know Python, Java and C++. But I'm ready to learn Ruby if 
RoR is as good as they say.

I could do it in Python cgi (or mod_python). But it seems from all the 
hype that this is not a good way to write scaleable, extensible web 
applications.

There's a reason I'm asking here: I like Python. But I only learned it 
because I had incentive (30000 local monetary units in the computer 
olympiad; I won 10000). Is RoR incentive enough?

--Max


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Fri Jun  2 04:25:54 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 04:25:54 +0200
Subject: if not CGI:
In-Reply-To: <pJKdnaS3EZIV0uLZRVn-pg@is.co.za>
References: <pJKdnaS3EZIV0uLZRVn-pg@is.co.za>
Message-ID: <447f722b$0$30312$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

Max a ?crit :
(snip)
> But now I'm ready to do it in the real world. Nothing complicated, but a 
> real project. And I have to choose my tools. Zope, Plone, Django, what 
> are these? 

Zope -> an application server
Plone -> a CMS built upon Zope
Django -> a MVC fullstack framework (fullstack : integration with a 
server + ORM + template system + various utilities).

> I don't have to stick with Python, although it's my preferred 
> language. I know Python, Java and C++. But I'm ready to learn Ruby if 
> RoR is as good as they say.

RoR is not bad, but really over-hyped. There's no shortage of at least 
as good solutions in Python. You may want to look at Django, Turbogears, 
Pylons, web.py etc. for fullstack MVC frameworks.

There are more barebones solutions, like CherryPy (the application 
server Turbogears is built upon), Myghty (extended perl::Mason port, 
used by Pylons), mod_python (if you're an hard-core Apache fanatic), 
WebStack (if you want to deploy on almost any server), and some other 
pieces like formencode (form validation), SQLObject (ORM, used by 
Turbogears and Pylons), SQLAlchemy (another ORM, very promising, by the 
author of Myghty), Routes (port of RoR routes, used by Pylons) and a lot 
of templating systems. So you can even build your own fullstack 
framework from existing pieces (that's what Turbogears and Pylons are 
doing FWIW).

And also whole lot of more specific solutions : Albatross, Quixote, 
Karrigel, Twisted/nevow, (...), and of course Zope 2.x and 3.x, but it 
may be overkill and long to learn.

Also, FWIW, Trac is almost a usable (somewhat minimalist) framework on 
it's own.

So the problem is not  "are there good solutions", but "which one to 
choose" !-) The answer of course depends on what you want and what you 
like, but taking a few days to play with Turbogears, Django and Pylons 
might be a good idea.

> I could do it in Python cgi (or mod_python). But it seems from all the 
> hype that this is not a good way to write scaleable, extensible web 
> applications.

Trac is a perfect counter-example IMHO.


From rabkinDELETE at mweb.co.za  Sun Jun  4 13:58:26 2006
From: rabkinDELETE at mweb.co.za (Max)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:58:26 +0200
Subject: if not CGI:
In-Reply-To: <447f722b$0$30312$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
References: <pJKdnaS3EZIV0uLZRVn-pg@is.co.za>
	<447f722b$0$30312$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <dfadnUbfW6Z_Vx_ZnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d@is.co.za>

Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
> Max a ?crit :
(snip)
> 
> RoR is not bad, but really over-hyped. There's no shortage of at least 
> as good solutions in Python. You may want to look at Django, Turbogears, 
> Pylons, web.py etc. for fullstack MVC frameworks.

That's what I thought!

(snip)
> 
> So the problem is not  "are there good solutions", but "which one to 
> choose" !-) The answer of course depends on what you want and what you 
> like, but taking a few days to play with Turbogears, Django and Pylons 
> might be a good idea.

Good stuff. I'm downloading them now.


Thanks.

--Max


From yan at NsOeSiPnAeMr.com  Thu Jun  1 23:04:40 2006
From: yan at NsOeSiPnAeMr.com (Captain Dondo)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:04:40 -0700
Subject: Replace one element of a tuple
Message-ID: <127ulhn6h7hvj22@corp.supernews.com>

I have an array(?) (sorry, I'm new* to python so I'm probably mangling 
the terminology) that looks like this:

[((1028L, datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 30, 7, 0), datetime.datetime(2006, 
5, 30, 7, 30), 'Arthur', 'Prunella Sees the Light; Return of the 
Snowball', 'Prunella prepares for a sleepover with Marina; D.W. protects 
a snowball.', 'Children', 'tooth.seiner.lan', None, 0L, None, 1L, 1L, 
'Default', 9L, 'SH044107', 'EP0441070123', datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 
30, 7, 31, 24), 1164179392L, 0.0, 1, datetime.date(2002, 11, 28), 0, 0L, 
0),), ((1028L, datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 4, 10, 0), 
datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 4, 10, 30), 'Bob the Builder', 'Using Clues', 
'', 'Children', 'tooth.seiner.lan', None, 0L, None, 1L, 1L, 'Default', 
6L, 'SH326087', 'EP3260870141', datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 4, 10, 31, 
30), 1163673536L, 0.0, 1, datetime.date(2005, 3, 19), 0, 0L, 0),)]

I want to replace every instance of 'tooth.seiner.lan' with 'localhost'. 
  There may be lots and lots of these entries (they're pulled from my 
mythtv database).

I could brute-force this by rewriting the whole thing and replacing 
every 9th element but there has to be a better way....

I've looked at various search-and-replace snippets but none that address 
what I am trying to do....

--Yan

*I'm not really new to python, just very very rusty.  Last time I used 
it was about 3 years ago, and I was equally clueless....


From akameswaran at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 23:33:41 2006
From: akameswaran at gmail.com (akameswaran at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 14:33:41 -0700
Subject: Replace one element of a tuple
In-Reply-To: <127ulhn6h7hvj22@corp.supernews.com>
References: <127ulhn6h7hvj22@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <1149197621.047337.135070@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Captain Dondo wrote:
> I have an array(?) (sorry, I'm new* to python so I'm probably mangling
> the terminology) that looks like this:
>
> [((1028L, datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 30, 7, 0), datetime.datetime(2006,
> 5, 30, 7, 30), 'Arthur', 'Prunella Sees the Light; Return of the
> Snowball', 'Prunella prepares for a sleepover with Marina; D.W. protects
> a snowball.', 'Children', 'tooth.seiner.lan', None, 0L, None, 1L, 1L,
> 'Default', 9L, 'SH044107', 'EP0441070123', datetime.datetime(2006, 5,
> 30, 7, 31, 24), 1164179392L, 0.0, 1, datetime.date(2002, 11, 28), 0, 0L,
> 0),), ((1028L, datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 4, 10, 0),
> datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 4, 10, 30), 'Bob the Builder', 'Using Clues',
> '', 'Children', 'tooth.seiner.lan', None, 0L, None, 1L, 1L, 'Default',
> 6L, 'SH326087', 'EP3260870141', datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 4, 10, 31,
> 30), 1163673536L, 0.0, 1, datetime.date(2005, 3, 19), 0, 0L, 0),)]
>
> I want to replace every instance of 'tooth.seiner.lan' with 'localhost'.
>   There may be lots and lots of these entries (they're pulled from my
> mythtv database).
>
> I could brute-force this by rewriting the whole thing and replacing
> every 9th element but there has to be a better way....
>
> I've looked at various search-and-replace snippets but none that address
> what I am trying to do....
>
> --Yan
>
> *I'm not really new to python, just very very rusty.  Last time I used
> it was about 3 years ago, and I was equally clueless....


There's a lot of parenthesis :)  not easy to read, but unless I'm
seeing something odd, you have string literals in a tuple.  So I don't
think your going to find a better way than brute force recreation.

FYI lists are between []  and are mutable
Tuples are between () and are immutable.  If I'm countin paren's right
you have a list that contains a tuple, that contains another tuple with
1 element in it.

so you can recreate the tuples... or convert the whole thing to a list
of lists.



From rpdooling at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 23:55:46 2006
From: rpdooling at gmail.com (BartlebyScrivener)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 14:55:46 -0700
Subject: Replace one element of a tuple
In-Reply-To: <127ulhn6h7hvj22@corp.supernews.com>
References: <127ulhn6h7hvj22@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <1149198946.567904.260480@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

>> I've looked at various search-and-replace snippets but none that address
>> what I am trying to do....

I think you need to tell more about what you're trying to do. You say
it's in a database? Is that why you can't just put the whole blob in
your text editor and do search-and-replace?

And is that also why you can't turn it into a giant string and do
giantstring.replace('unwanted','wanted')

rd



From yan at NsOeSiPnAeMr.com  Fri Jun  2 00:19:38 2006
From: yan at NsOeSiPnAeMr.com (Captain Dondo)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:19:38 -0700
Subject: Replace one element of a tuple (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <1149198946.567904.260480@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <127ulhn6h7hvj22@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149198946.567904.260480@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <127upu8k63qnu10@corp.supernews.com>

BartlebyScrivener wrote:
>>>I've looked at various search-and-replace snippets but none that address
>>>what I am trying to do....
> 
> 
> I think you need to tell more about what you're trying to do. You say
> it's in a database? Is that why you can't just put the whole blob in
> your text editor and do search-and-replace?
> 
> And is that also why you can't turn it into a giant string and do
> giantstring.replace('unwanted','wanted')
> 
> rd
> 

Fair enough.  I am trying to pull records from one database (on 
tooth.seiner.lan) and create a smaller table with only selected elements 
in another database (on localhost aka hermes).

My code so far:

import MySQLdb
import sys, os, os.path, time, string, dialog

masterBackend="tooth.seiner.lan"
toGoBackend="hermes.seiner.lan"

masterDB=MySQLdb.connect(host=masterBackend,user="mythtv",passwd="mythtv",db="mythconverg")

# pull recordings from masterDB

c=masterDB.cursor()
c.execute("""SELECT title, subtitle, starttime FROM recorded""")

# build our dialog checkbox

d = dialog.Dialog(dialog="dialog")
d.add_persistent_args(["--backtitle", "Myth2Go"])

recordings=[]
for listing in c.fetchall():
         recordings.append(
		(listing[0]+'|'+listing[2].isoformat(),
		listing[1],0))

recordings.sort()

(retcode, itemlist) = d.checklist(text="",
         height=15, width=70, list_height=7,
         choices=recordings,
         title="Which recordings do you want to transfer?")

selectlist=[]
for listing in itemlist:
         print listing
         (rectitle, recdate) = listing.split('|',1)
         c.execute("""SELECT * FROM recorded WHERE title=%s AND
		starttime=%s""",(rectitle,recdate))
         selectlist.append(c.fetchone())

========================================================

The problem is the last line.  I am creating a bunch of tuples that are, 
for my purposes, incorrect.  I would like to create them with 
masterBackend replaced by toGoBackend.

Currently (I corrected a small bug based on another post) after a user 
selects what recordings s/he wants, selectlist contains:

[

(1028L, datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 26, 7, 0), datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 
26, 7, 30), 'Arthur', "What's Cooking?; Buster's Special Delivery", '', 
'Children', 'tooth.seiner.lan', None, 0L, None, 1L, 1L, 'Default', 9L, 
'SH044107', 'EP0441070207', datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 26, 7, 31, 1), 
1162899392L, 0.0, 0, datetime.date(2006, 5, 26), 0, 0L, 0),

(1028L, datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 27, 9, 0), datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 
27, 9, 30), 'Arthur', 'Unfinished; D.W., Bossy Boots', '', 'Children', 
'tooth.seiner.lan', None, 0L, None, 1L, 1L, 'Default', 9L, 'SH044107', 
'EP0441070204', datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 27, 9, 31, 26), 1164783552L, 
0.0, 0, datetime.date(2006, 5, 23), 0, 0L, 0),

(1028L, datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 30, 7, 0), datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 
30, 7, 30), 'Arthur', 'Prunella Sees the Light; Return of the Snowball', 
'Prunella prepares for a sleepover with Marina; D.W. protects a 
snowball.', 'Children', 'tooth.seiner.lan', None, 0L, None, 1L, 1L, 
'Default', 9L, 'SH044107', 'EP0441070123', datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 
30, 7, 31, 24), 1164179392L, 0.0, 1, datetime.date(2002, 11, 28), 0, 0L, 0)

]

which is the correct format to insert into the new database.

What I'd like to do is build the correct selectlist in the first place, 
rather than build the wrong one and then rebuild a correct one.

I can't find a replace method that would work on a tuple (not surprising 
since they're immutable) but I also can't find a replace function that 
would replace an element of a tuple and return a new tuple.

--Yan


From almondb at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 00:53:37 2006
From: almondb at gmail.com (Brian)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 15:53:37 -0700
Subject: Replace one element of a tuple (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <127upu8k63qnu10@corp.supernews.com>
References: <127ulhn6h7hvj22@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149198946.567904.260480@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<127upu8k63qnu10@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <1149202416.959127.71620@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Captain Dondo wrote:
> What I'd like to do is build the correct selectlist in the first place,
> rather than build the wrong one and then rebuild a correct one.

This is sounding more like a SQL/DB problem and less like a Python one.
 If you have a field that is being pulled from the database that you
would like to do a substitution on, I'm fairly sure MySQL includes a
CASE statement in their flavor of SQL.  Instead of performing a  SELECT
* in your script you could select the individual fields you want, and
instead of just pulling the problematic column as is, you could pull it
as something like "select case when sourcehost = x then y else
sourcehost end case, ...".  Naturally if an entire column needs to be
replaced with a static value, you won't even need to use CASE.

HTH



From yan at NsOeSiPnAeMr.com  Fri Jun  2 01:08:43 2006
From: yan at NsOeSiPnAeMr.com (Captain Dondo)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:08:43 -0700
Subject: Replace one element of a tuple (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <1149202416.959127.71620@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <127ulhn6h7hvj22@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149198946.567904.260480@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<127upu8k63qnu10@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149202416.959127.71620@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <127usq9lrqavm3d@corp.supernews.com>

Brian wrote:
> Captain Dondo wrote:
> 
>>What I'd like to do is build the correct selectlist in the first place,
>>rather than build the wrong one and then rebuild a correct one.
> 
> 
> This is sounding more like a SQL/DB problem and less like a Python one.
>  If you have a field that is being pulled from the database that you
> would like to do a substitution on, I'm fairly sure MySQL includes a
> CASE statement in their flavor of SQL.  Instead of performing a  SELECT
> * in your script you could select the individual fields you want, and
> instead of just pulling the problematic column as is, you could pull it
> as something like "select case when sourcehost = x then y else
> sourcehost end case, ...".  Naturally if an entire column needs to be
> replaced with a static value, you won't even need to use CASE.
> 

AFAICT, that one column is always the same, the name of the host that 
the database resides on.  As myth can use multiple backends , it sort of 
makes sense, but it seems redunandant to me.  Even with mutliple 
backends, I would hope you have a single database....

I thought about just picking all the other fields via the SQL query, but 
this seemed simpler to me....

Anyway, here's the code I came up with:

for listing in itemlist:
         (rectitle, recdate) = listing.split('|',1)
         c.execute("""SELECT * FROM recorded WHERE title=%s AND 
starttime=%s""",(rectitle,recdate))
         for listitem in c.fetchall():
                 if 'tooth.seiner.lan' in  listitem:
                         selectlist.append(listitem[:7] + 
('hermes.seiner.lan',) + listitem[9:])
                 else:
                         selectlist.append(listitem)


From rpdooling at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 01:27:25 2006
From: rpdooling at gmail.com (BartlebyScrivener)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 16:27:25 -0700
Subject: Replace one element of a tuple (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <127usq9lrqavm3d@corp.supernews.com>
References: <127ulhn6h7hvj22@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149198946.567904.260480@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<127upu8k63qnu10@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149202416.959127.71620@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<127usq9lrqavm3d@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <1149204445.622897.26390@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

>> that one column is always the same, the name of the host that
>> the database resides on.

Then why are you pulling all of the other stuff out of the db? Why
don't you just

UPDATE tablename
    SET hostname(or colname) = 'localhost'
    WHERE search condition = the rows you want to change



From yan at NsOeSiPnAeMr.com  Fri Jun  2 01:32:45 2006
From: yan at NsOeSiPnAeMr.com (Captain Dondo)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:32:45 -0700
Subject: Replace one element of a tuple (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <1149204445.622897.26390@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <127ulhn6h7hvj22@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149198946.567904.260480@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<127upu8k63qnu10@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149202416.959127.71620@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<127usq9lrqavm3d@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149204445.622897.26390@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <127uu7c9c1s9n8e@corp.supernews.com>

BartlebyScrivener wrote:
>>>that one column is always the same, the name of the host that
>>>the database resides on.
> 
> 
> Then why are you pulling all of the other stuff out of the db? Why
> don't you just
> 
> UPDATE tablename
>     SET hostname(or colname) = 'localhost'
>     WHERE search condition = the rows you want to change
> 

Well, there is an interactive dialog where the user picks which records 
s/he wants to put into the other database.  So in the target database, 
that table may not even exist until the user selects which records go in 
there.

But it does sound like I need to do some work on the database query....  :-)

--Yan


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Sat Jun  3 03:42:23 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:42:23 +0200
Subject: Replace one element of a tuple (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <127upu8k63qnu10@corp.supernews.com>
References: <127ulhn6h7hvj22@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149198946.567904.260480@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<127upu8k63qnu10@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <4480b971$0$29643$636a55ce@news.free.fr>

Captain Dondo a ?crit :
(snip)

> c=masterDB.cursor()
> c.execute("""SELECT title, subtitle, starttime FROM recorded""")
> 
> # build our dialog checkbox
> 
> d = dialog.Dialog(dialog="dialog")
> d.add_persistent_args(["--backtitle", "Myth2Go"])
> 
> recordings=[]
> for listing in c.fetchall():
>         recordings.append(
>         (listing[0]+'|'+listing[2].isoformat(),
>         listing[1],0))
 >
> recordings.sort()

Why don't you just add an order by clause in your sql statement ???

> (retcode, itemlist) = d.checklist(text="",
>         height=15, width=70, list_height=7,
>         choices=recordings,
>         title="Which recordings do you want to transfer?")
> 
> selectlist=[]
> for listing in itemlist:
>         print listing
>         (rectitle, recdate) = listing.split('|',1)
>         c.execute("""SELECT * FROM recorded WHERE title=%s AND
>         starttime=%s""",(rectitle,recdate))

is the combination of title and starttime a unique key ?

Also, unless you have lots of records with huge blobs in 'recorded' 
table, this smells like a WTF.

>         selectlist.append(c.fetchone())


> The problem is the last line.

I'm afraid this is not the only problem...

>  I am creating a bunch of tuples that are, 
> for my purposes, incorrect.

selectlist.append(list(c.fetchone)) would create a bunch of lists instead.

>  I would like to create them with 
> masterBackend replaced by toGoBackend.
> 
> Currently (I corrected a small bug based on another post) after a user 
> selects what recordings s/he wants, selectlist contains:
> 
> [
> 
> (1028L, datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 26, 7, 0), datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 
> 26, 7, 30), 'Arthur', "What's Cooking?; Buster's Special Delivery", '', 
> 'Children', 'tooth.seiner.lan', None, 0L, None, 1L, 1L, 'Default', 9L, 
> 'SH044107', 'EP0441070207', datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 26, 7, 31, 1), 
> 1162899392L, 0.0, 0, datetime.date(2006, 5, 26), 0, 0L, 0),

No huge blob in sight. And since the list of records fits on a dialog 
with checkboxes, I think you could easily avoid querying the DB that 
many times. FWIW, you could probably query it once only.

> (1028L, datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 27, 9, 0), datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 
> 27, 9, 30), 'Arthur', 'Unfinished; D.W., Bossy Boots', '', 'Children', 
> 'tooth.seiner.lan', None, 0L, None, 1L, 1L, 'Default', 9L, 'SH044107', 
> 'EP0441070204', datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 27, 9, 31, 26), 1164783552L, 
> 0.0, 0, datetime.date(2006, 5, 23), 0, 0L, 0),
> 
> (1028L, datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 30, 7, 0), datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 
> 30, 7, 30), 'Arthur', 'Prunella Sees the Light; Return of the Snowball', 
> 'Prunella prepares for a sleepover with Marina; D.W. protects a 
> snowball.', 'Children', 'tooth.seiner.lan', None, 0L, None, 1L, 1L, 
> 'Default', 9L, 'SH044107', 'EP0441070123', datetime.datetime(2006, 5, 
> 30, 7, 31, 24), 1164179392L, 0.0, 1, datetime.date(2002, 11, 28), 0, 0L, 0)
> 
> ]
> 
> which is the correct format to insert into the new database.
> 
> What I'd like to do is build the correct selectlist in the first place, 
> rather than build the wrong one and then rebuild a correct one.
> 
> I can't find a replace method that would work on a tuple (not surprising 
> since they're immutable) but I also can't find a replace function that 
> would replace an element of a tuple and return a new tuple.

You can of course turn a tuple into a list, then modify the list. But it 
would still be a waste of time. Learning the full syntax for a SQL 
select might be more useful. You can do something like:

  select item1, item2, 'someconstant', item3, ..., from sometable (...)

which avoid having anything to replace.


Assuming that title + starttime is the primary key, and - not knowing 
the structure of your table - assuming that starttime is the second 
field, title the 5th and subtitle the 6th :

# ---------------------
sql = """
SELECT f1, starttime, f3, f4, title, subtitle, f7, '%s',  f9, 
(..etc...), f24
FROM recorded
ORDER BY title, starttime
""" % toGoBackend

c.execute(sql)
rows = c.fetchall()
# seems like dialog.checklist wants strings as tags
# tried with ints, but it crashed...
choices = [(str(i), row[5], 0) for row in rows]
d = dialog.Dialog(dialog="dialog")
d.add_persistent_args(["--backtitle", "Myth2Go"])
retcode, indices = d.checklist('', choices=choices)
if retcode:
   # exit or return

selectlist = [rows[i] for i in map(int, indices)]
# ---------------------



HTH


From joh12005 at yahoo.fr  Thu Jun  1 23:17:22 2006
From: joh12005 at yahoo.fr (joh12005 at yahoo.fr)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 14:17:22 -0700
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
Message-ID: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

hello,

i'm looking for a way to have a list of number grouped by consecutive
interval, after a search, for example :

[3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]

=>

[[3, 4], [6,9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]

(6, not following 3, so 3 => [3:4] ; 7, 8 following 6 so 6, 7, 8 =>
[6:9], and so on)

i was able to to it without generators/yield but i think it could be
better with them, may be do you an idea?

best regards,

J.



From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Jun  1 23:53:41 2006
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 23:53:41 +0200
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5nngh$3fb$03$1@news.t-online.com>

joh12005 at yahoo.fr wrote:

> i'm looking for a way to have a list of number grouped by consecutive
> interval, after a search, for example :
> 
> [3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]
> 
> =>
> 
> [[3, 4], [6,9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]
> 
> (6, not following 3, so 3 => [3:4] ; 7, 8 following 6 so 6, 7, 8 =>
> [6:9], and so on)
> 
> i was able to to it without generators/yield but i think it could be
> better with them, may be do you an idea?

Don't hold back your code. Would it work to replace each occurrence of

result_list.append([start, stop]) 

with 

yield [start, stop]

?

Peter


From jes at nl.demon.net  Fri Jun  2 00:11:21 2006
From: jes at nl.demon.net (Jim Segrave)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:11:21 -0000
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <127upg9qbf0b3f2@corp.supernews.com>

In article <1149196642.001466.53990 at c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
 <joh12005 at yahoo.fr> wrote:
>hello,
>
>i'm looking for a way to have a list of number grouped by consecutive
>interval, after a search, for example :
>
>[3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]
>
>=>
>
>[[3, 4], [6,9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]
>
>(6, not following 3, so 3 => [3:4] ; 7, 8 following 6 so 6, 7, 8 =>
>[6:9], and so on)
>
>i was able to to it without generators/yield but i think it could be
>better with them, may be do you an idea?

There are probably better ways, but this works

>
>best regards,
>
>J.

class IterInterval(object):
    """Create an iterator which, given a list of integers,
    for each run of consecutive integers i...j, yields a two
    element list [i, j + 1]

    Singleton lists [i] return [i, i + 1]
    Empty lists return None
    """
    def __init__(self, seq):
        self.seq = seq
        self.firstval = None
        self.index = 0

    def __iter__(self):
        # firstval = the start of a run of consecutive integers
        # lastval = the last value found in the run
        # nextval = the most recent value taken from the input list
        if not self.firstval:
            # set up the first iteration
            if self.index >= len(self.seq):
                # empty list, return
                raise StopIteration
            self.firstval = lastval = int(self.seq[self.index])
            self.index += 1
        while True:
            if self.index >= len(self.seq):
                # list exhausted, output the last value read
                yield [self.firstval, lastval + 1]
                raise StopIteration
            nextval = int(self.seq[self.index])
            self.index += 1
            if nextval == lastval + 1:
                lastval = nextval
                continue
            else:
                # end of run - output the run, reset for next call
                yield [self.firstval, lastval + 1]
                self.firstval = lastval = nextval
                continue

if __name__ == '__main__':
    for l in [[3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15], [2], []]:
        print l, "=>", [lst for lst in  IterInterval(l)]

/usr/home/jes% python interval.py 
[3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15] => [[3, 4], [6, 9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]
[3] => [[3, 4]]
[] => []



-- 
Jim Segrave           (jes at jes-2.demon.nl)



From bencvt at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 00:16:33 2006
From: bencvt at gmail.com (Ben Cartwright)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 15:16:33 -0700
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
In-Reply-To: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149200193.757861.51060@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

joh12005 at yahoo.fr wrote:
> i'm looking for a way to have a list of number grouped by consecutive
> interval, after a search, for example :
>
> [3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]
>
> =>
>
> [[3, 4], [6,9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]
>
> (6, not following 3, so 3 => [3:4] ; 7, 8 following 6 so 6, 7, 8 =>
> [6:9], and so on)
>
> i was able to to it without generators/yield but i think it could be
> better with them, may be do you an idea?

Sure:

    def group_intervals(it):
        it = iter(it)
        val = it.next()
        run = [val, val+1]
        for val in it:
            if val == run[1]:
                run[1] += 1
            else:
                yield run
                run = [val, val+1]
        yield run

--Ben



From paddy3118 at netscape.net  Fri Jun  2 00:36:56 2006
From: paddy3118 at netscape.net (Paddy)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 15:36:56 -0700
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149201416.196975.123370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

joh12005 at yahoo.fr wrote:
> hello,
>
> i'm looking for a way to have a list of number grouped by consecutive
> interval, after a search, for example :
>
> [3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]
>
> =>
>
> [[3, 4], [6,9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]
>
> (6, not following 3, so 3 => [3:4] ; 7, 8 following 6 so 6, 7, 8 =>
> [6:9], and so on)
>
> i was able to to it without generators/yield but i think it could be
> better with them, may be do you an idea?
>
> best regards,
>
> J.

I did a proceedural version, then re-read your post and did a generator
based version ;-)

=== interv1 ===
>>> inlist = [3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]
>>> tmp = []
>>> for i,val in enumerate(inlist):
... 	if i==0:
... 		tmp.append(val)
... 	elif val != valinc:
... 		tmp += [valinc, val]
... 	valinc = val+1
...
>>> tmp.append(valinc)
>>> tmp
[3, 4, 6, 9, 12, 14, 15, 16]
>>> tmp[0::2]
[3, 6, 12, 15]
>>> tmp[1::2]
[4, 9, 14, 16]
>>> zip(tmp[0::2], tmp[1::2])
[(3, 4), (6, 9), (12, 14), (15, 16)]
>>>

=== END interv1 ===

=== interv2 ===
>>> def interv2(inlist):
... 	for i,val in enumerate(inlist):
... 		if i==0:
... 			tmp = val
... 		elif val != valinc:
... 			yield [tmp, valinc]
...                     tmp = val
... 		valinc = val+1
... 	yield [tmp, valinc]
...
>>> list(interv2(inlist))
[[3, 4], [6, 9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]

=== END interv2 ===

- Paddy.



From paddy3118 at netscape.net  Fri Jun  2 00:53:08 2006
From: paddy3118 at netscape.net (Paddy)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 15:53:08 -0700
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149201416.196975.123370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149202388.135494.148890@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>

I did a little re-arranging of the generator version:

def interv3(inlist):
    tmp = inlist[0]
    valinc = tmp+1
    for val in inlist[1:]:
        if val != valinc:
            yield [tmp, valinc];
            tmp = val
        valinc = val+1
    yield [tmp, valinc]



From jes at nl.demon.net  Fri Jun  2 01:13:44 2006
From: jes at nl.demon.net (Jim Segrave)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 23:13:44 -0000
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149201416.196975.123370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149202388.135494.148890@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <127ut58e8q0ok5a@corp.supernews.com>

In article <1149202388.135494.148890 at u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
Paddy <paddy3118 at netscape.net> wrote:
>I did a little re-arranging of the generator version:
>
>def interv3(inlist):
>    tmp = inlist[0]
>    valinc = tmp+1
>    for val in inlist[1:]:
>        if val != valinc:
>            yield [tmp, valinc];
>            tmp = val
>        valinc = val+1
>    yield [tmp, valinc]

Still fails when passed an empty list, the initial assignment to tmp
is an IndexError




-- 
Jim Segrave           (jes at jes-2.demon.nl)



From jes at nl.demon.net  Fri Jun  2 00:53:43 2006
From: jes at nl.demon.net (Jim Segrave)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:53:43 -0000
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149201416.196975.123370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <127urvnrbvjgr07@corp.supernews.com>

In article <1149201416.196975.123370 at c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
Paddy <paddy3118 at netscape.net> wrote:
>=== interv2 ===
>>>> def interv2(inlist):
>... 	for i,val in enumerate(inlist):
>... 		if i==0:
>... 			tmp = val
>... 		elif val != valinc:
>... 			yield [tmp, valinc]
>...                     tmp = val
>... 		valinc = val+1
>... 	yield [tmp, valinc]
>...
>>>> list(interv2(inlist))
>[[3, 4], [6, 9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]
>
>=== END interv2 ===

This doesn't actually run, changing it to make it do so:

def interv2(inlist):
    tmp = valinc = 0
    for i,val in enumerate(inlist):
        if i==0:
            tmp = val
            valinc = val + 1
        elif val != valinc:
            yield [tmp, valinc]
            tmp = val
            valinc = val+1
    yield [tmp, valinc]

it now works, but returns [0, 0] when passed an empty list, when it
should return nothing at all





-- 
Jim Segrave           (jes at jes-2.demon.nl)



From paddy3118 at netscape.net  Fri Jun  2 00:59:40 2006
From: paddy3118 at netscape.net (Paddy)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 15:59:40 -0700
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
In-Reply-To: <127urvnrbvjgr07@corp.supernews.com>
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149201416.196975.123370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<127urvnrbvjgr07@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <1149202780.780252.242110@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>


Jim Segrave wrote:
> In article <1149201416.196975.123370 at c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> Paddy <paddy3118 at netscape.net> wrote:
> >=== interv2 ===
> >>>> def interv2(inlist):
> >... 	for i,val in enumerate(inlist):
> >... 		if i==0:
> >... 			tmp = val
> >... 		elif val != valinc:
> >... 			yield [tmp, valinc]
> >...                     tmp = val
> >... 		valinc = val+1
> >... 	yield [tmp, valinc]
> >...
> >>>> list(interv2(inlist))
> >[[3, 4], [6, 9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]
> >
> >=== END interv2 ===
>
> This doesn't actually run, changing it to make it do so:
>
> def interv2(inlist):
>     tmp = valinc = 0
>     for i,val in enumerate(inlist):
>         if i==0:
>             tmp = val
>             valinc = val + 1
>         elif val != valinc:
>             yield [tmp, valinc]
>             tmp = val
>             valinc = val+1
>     yield [tmp, valinc]
>
> it now works, but returns [0, 0] when passed an empty list, when it
> should return nothing at all
> --
> Jim Segrave           (jes at jes-2.demon.nl)
Jim, I had tabs/spaces indent problems when cut-n-pasting.

What I ran was more like the version below, but i did a quick
separation of the line that has the ';' in it and goofed.

>>> def interv2(inlist):
... 	for i,val in enumerate(inlist):
... 		if i==0:
... 			tmp = val
... 		elif val != valinc:
... 			yield [tmp, valinc]; tmp = val
... 		valinc = val+1
... 	yield [tmp, valinc]
... 
>>> list(interv2(inlist))
[[3, 4], [6, 9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]



From jes at nl.demon.net  Fri Jun  2 01:15:17 2006
From: jes at nl.demon.net (Jim Segrave)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 23:15:17 -0000
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149201416.196975.123370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<127urvnrbvjgr07@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149202780.780252.242110@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <127ut85lpcmoa5b@corp.supernews.com>

In article <1149202780.780252.242110 at f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Paddy <paddy3118 at netscape.net> wrote:
>
>What I ran was more like the version below, but i did a quick
>separation of the line that has the ';' in it and goofed.
>
>>>> def interv2(inlist):
>... 	for i,val in enumerate(inlist):
>... 		if i==0:
>... 			tmp = val
>... 		elif val != valinc:
>... 			yield [tmp, valinc]; tmp = val
>... 		valinc = val+1
>... 	yield [tmp, valinc]
>... 
>>>> list(interv2(inlist))
>[[3, 4], [6, 9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]

Fails on an empty list, as tmp is not defined when it hits the yield


-- 
Jim Segrave           (jes at jes-2.demon.nl)



From paddy3118 at netscape.net  Fri Jun  2 08:18:26 2006
From: paddy3118 at netscape.net (Paddy)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 23:18:26 -0700
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
In-Reply-To: <127ut85lpcmoa5b@corp.supernews.com>
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149201416.196975.123370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<127urvnrbvjgr07@corp.supernews.com>
	<1149202780.780252.242110@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<127ut85lpcmoa5b@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <1149229106.062837.139960@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


Jim Segrave wrote:
> In article <1149202780.780252.242110 at f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Paddy <paddy3118 at netscape.net> wrote:
> >
> >What I ran was more like the version below, but i did a quick
> >separation of the line that has the ';' in it and goofed.
> >
> >>>> def interv2(inlist):
> >... 	for i,val in enumerate(inlist):
> >... 		if i==0:
> >... 			tmp = val
> >... 		elif val != valinc:
> >... 			yield [tmp, valinc]; tmp = val
> >... 		valinc = val+1
> >... 	yield [tmp, valinc]
> >...
> >>>> list(interv2(inlist))
> >[[3, 4], [6, 9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]
>
> Fails on an empty list, as tmp is not defined when it hits the yield
>
>
> --
> Jim Segrave           (jes at jes-2.demon.nl)

Yep, I still, purposfully, decided not to put any guard checks in
because:
  Its very easy to add.
  It detracts from the algorithm.
  It might never be called with an empty list in-situ.
  It is correct for the original posters testcases.
  Yah gotta leave-em something to do ;-)

But you-too are right. Don't just cut-n-paste newsgroup solutions. they
need testing for your particular use. I doubt anyone on C.L.P. would be
malicious, but your actual use of a function having a wider scope to
inputs than mentioned might be fairy common.

(Damn, I wanted to use 'caveat emptor', but it does not apply as
nothing is being bought. Oh well :-)

-- Pad.



From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Fri Jun  2 01:35:37 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 09:35:37 +1000
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
In-Reply-To: <1149201416.196975.123370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149201416.196975.123370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <447F79C9.6080407@lexicon.net>

On 2/06/2006 8:36 AM, Paddy wrote:
> joh12005 at yahoo.fr wrote:
>> hello,
>>
>> i'm looking for a way to have a list of number grouped by consecutive
>> interval, after a search, for example :
>>
>> [3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]
>>
>> =>
>>
>> [[3, 4], [6,9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]
>>
>> (6, not following 3, so 3 => [3:4] ; 7, 8 following 6 so 6, 7, 8 =>
>> [6:9], and so on)
>>
>> i was able to to it without generators/yield but i think it could be
>> better with them, may be do you an idea?
>>
>> best regards,
>>
>> J.
> 
> I did a proceedural version, then re-read your post and did a generator
> based version ;-)
> 
> === interv1 ===
>>>> inlist = [3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]
>>>> tmp = []
>>>> for i,val in enumerate(inlist):
> ... 	if i==0:
> ... 		tmp.append(val)
> ... 	elif val != valinc:
> ... 		tmp += [valinc, val]
> ... 	valinc = val+1
> ...
>>>> tmp.append(valinc)
>>>> tmp
> [3, 4, 6, 9, 12, 14, 15, 16]
>>>> tmp[0::2]
> [3, 6, 12, 15]
>>>> tmp[1::2]
> [4, 9, 14, 16]
>>>> zip(tmp[0::2], tmp[1::2])
> [(3, 4), (6, 9), (12, 14), (15, 16)]
> 
> === END interv1 ===
> 
> === interv2 ===
>>>> def interv2(inlist):
> ... 	for i,val in enumerate(inlist):
> ... 		if i==0:
> ... 			tmp = val
> ... 		elif val != valinc:
> ... 			yield [tmp, valinc]
> ...                     tmp = val
> ... 		valinc = val+1
> ... 	yield [tmp, valinc]
> ...
>>>> list(interv2(inlist))
> [[3, 4], [6, 9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]
> 
> === END interv2 ===
> 
> - Paddy.
> 

Oh the siren call of every new feature in the language!
enumerate() just to get a first-time test, and then botch it??

Read the following; the replacement version uses a simple old-fashioned 
inelegant flag, works with an empty sequence, and doesn't depend on the 
input being sliceable or indexable.

HTH,
John

C:\junk>type interval.py
def interv2(inlist):
     for i,val in enumerate(inlist):
         if i==0:
             tmp = val
         elif val != valinc:
             yield [tmp, valinc]
             tmp = val
         valinc = val+1
     yield [tmp, valinc]

def interv3(inseq):
     first = True
     for val in inseq:
         if first:
             tmp = val
             first = False
         elif val != valinc:
             yield [tmp, valinc]
             tmp = val
         valinc = val + 1
     if not first:
         yield [tmp, valinc]

tests = [
     [3, 4, 6, 9, 12, 14, 15, 16],
     [3, 3, 3],
     [],
     ]

for func in (interv3, interv2):
     for test in tests:
         print "%s(%s) ->" % (func.__name__, test)
         result = list(func(test))
         print "\t%r" % result

C:\junk>interval.py
interv3([3, 4, 6, 9, 12, 14, 15, 16]) ->
         [[3, 5], [6, 7], [9, 10], [12, 13], [14, 17]]
interv3([3, 3, 3]) ->
         [[3, 4], [3, 4], [3, 4]]
interv3([]) ->
         []
interv2([3, 4, 6, 9, 12, 14, 15, 16]) ->
         [[3, 5], [6, 7], [9, 10], [12, 13], [14, 17]]
interv2([3, 3, 3]) ->
         [[3, 4], [3, 4], [3, 4]]
interv2([]) ->
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "C:\junk\interval.py", line 33, in ?
     result = list(func(test))
   File "C:\junk\interval.py", line 9, in interv2
     yield [tmp, valinc]
UnboundLocalError: local variable 'tmp' referenced before assignment

C:\junk>


From paddy3118 at netscape.net  Fri Jun  2 09:12:38 2006
From: paddy3118 at netscape.net (Paddy)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 00:12:38 -0700
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
In-Reply-To: <447F79C9.6080407@lexicon.net>
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149201416.196975.123370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<447F79C9.6080407@lexicon.net>
Message-ID: <1149232358.817706.92680@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


John Machin wrote:
> On 2/06/2006 8:36 AM, Paddy wrote:

>
> Oh the siren call of every new feature in the language!
> enumerate() just to get a first-time test, and then botch it??
>
> Read the following; the replacement version uses a simple old-fashioned
> inelegant flag, works with an empty sequence, and doesn't depend on the
> input being sliceable or indexable.
>
> HTH,
> John
>

Thanks, un-botchable John. What if the poster doesn't send a null list?
What if the correct result for a null list is "spam"; or an exception?
What if.... ... we toned down the language?

Cheers, Pad. :-)



From jes at nl.demon.net  Fri Jun  2 13:44:33 2006
From: jes at nl.demon.net (Jim Segrave)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:44:33 -0000
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149201416.196975.123370@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<447F79C9.6080407@lexicon.net>
	<1149232358.817706.92680@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <12809513gd23kc1@corp.supernews.com>

In article <1149232358.817706.92680 at j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Paddy <paddy3118 at netscape.net> wrote:
>
>John Machin wrote:
>> On 2/06/2006 8:36 AM, Paddy wrote:
>
>>
>> Oh the siren call of every new feature in the language!
>> enumerate() just to get a first-time test, and then botch it??
>>
>> Read the following; the replacement version uses a simple old-fashioned
>> inelegant flag, works with an empty sequence, and doesn't depend on the
>> input being sliceable or indexable.
>>
>> HTH,
>> John
>>
>
>Thanks, un-botchable John. What if the poster doesn't send a null list?
>What if the correct result for a null list is "spam"; or an exception?
>What if.... ... we toned down the language?

I'd still rate Ben Cartwright's solution as the best. The one I posted
tried to do the same, but I didn't see the right way to iterate over
the supplied list inside the function, wheras he did. It's short,
simple and correct.

If you really wanted to return 'spam' or an exception in his solution,
it's a simple if statement at the start of the function.




-- 
Jim Segrave           (jes at jes-2.demon.nl)



From grflanagan at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jun  2 07:39:33 2006
From: grflanagan at yahoo.co.uk (Gerard Flanagan)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 22:39:33 -0700
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149226773.350717.271520@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

joh12005 at yahoo.fr wrote:
> hello,
>
> i'm looking for a way to have a list of number grouped by consecutive
> interval, after a search, for example :
>
> [3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]
>
> =>
>
> [[3, 4], [6,9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]
>
> (6, not following 3, so 3 => [3:4] ; 7, 8 following 6 so 6, 7, 8 =>
> [6:9], and so on)
>
> i was able to to it without generators/yield but i think it could be
> better with them, may be do you an idea?
>
> best regards,
>

a list comprehension/itertools version (this won't work with an empty
list):

    from itertools import groupby

    a = [3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]

    result = [[3, 4], [6,9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]

    b = [ list(g)[0] for k,g in groupby(range(a[0],a[-1]+2), lambda x:
x in a)]

    c = [ b[i:i+2] for i in range(0,len(a),2) ]

    assert c == result


Gerard



From grflanagan at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jun  2 07:48:15 2006
From: grflanagan at yahoo.co.uk (Gerard Flanagan)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 22:48:15 -0700
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
In-Reply-To: <1149226773.350717.271520@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149226773.350717.271520@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149227295.288802.278990@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


Gerard Flanagan wrote:
> joh12005 at yahoo.fr wrote:
> > hello,
> >
> > i'm looking for a way to have a list of number grouped by consecutive
> > interval, after a search, for example :
> >
> > [3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]
> >
> > =>
> >
> > [[3, 4], [6,9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]
> >
> > (6, not following 3, so 3 => [3:4] ; 7, 8 following 6 so 6, 7, 8 =>
> > [6:9], and so on)
> >
> > i was able to to it without generators/yield but i think it could be
> > better with them, may be do you an idea?
> >
> > best regards,
> >
>
> a list comprehension/itertools version (this won't work with an empty
> list):
>
>     from itertools import groupby
>
>     a = [3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]
>
>     result = [[3, 4], [6,9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]
>
>     b = [ list(g)[0] for k,g in groupby(range(a[0],a[-1]+2), lambda x:
> x in a)]
>
>     c = [ b[i:i+2] for i in range(0,len(a),2) ]
>
>     assert c == result
>
>
> Gerard

change len(a) to len(b) in case a has duplicates like
[3,3,3,6,7,8,12,13,15]

Gerard



From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 19:01:43 2006
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:01:43 -0600
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
In-Reply-To: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <Sc6dnfPcW7Fr8x3ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@comcast.com>

joh12005 at yahoo.fr wrote:
> i'm looking for a way to have a list of number grouped by consecutive
> interval, after a search, for example :
> 
> [3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]
> 
> =>
> 
> [[3, 4], [6,9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]

Know your itertools.  From the examples section[1]:

"""
# Find runs of consecutive numbers using groupby.  The key to the
# solution is differencing with a range so that consecutive numbers all
# appear in same group.
 >>> data = [ 1,  4,5,6, 10, 15,16,17,18, 22, 25,26,27,28]
 >>> for k, g in groupby(enumerate(data), lambda (i,x):i-x):
...     print map(operator.itemgetter(1), g)
...
[1]
[4, 5, 6]
[10]
[15, 16, 17, 18]
[22]
[25, 26, 27, 28]
"""


So I think something like this should work:

 >>> import itertools
 >>> def intervals(numbers):
...     def key((i, n)):
...         return i - n
...     for key, group in itertools.groupby(enumerate(numbers), key):
...         group = list(group)
...         _, first_n = group[0]
...         _, last_n = group[-1]
...         yield first_n, last_n + 1
...
 >>> list(intervals([3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]))
[(3, 4), (6, 9), (12, 14), (15, 16)]

If you really need lists instead of tuples, just put brackets around the 
terms in the yield statement.

[1] http://docs.python.org/lib/itertools-example.html

STeVe


From joh12005 at yahoo.fr  Sat Jun  3 13:50:16 2006
From: joh12005 at yahoo.fr (joh12005 at yahoo.fr)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 04:50:16 -0700
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
In-Reply-To: <Sc6dnfPcW7Fr8x3ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@comcast.com>
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<Sc6dnfPcW7Fr8x3ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <1149335416.359226.228600@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


thanks to all !

my version was far less clever/long thant the one you posted, i'm going
to examine all these with much interest, and learn...

best regards.



From joh12005 at yahoo.fr  Sun Jun  4 19:57:22 2006
From: joh12005 at yahoo.fr (joh12005 at yahoo.fr)
Date: 4 Jun 2006 10:57:22 -0700
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
In-Reply-To: <Sc6dnfPcW7Fr8x3ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@comcast.com>
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<Sc6dnfPcW7Fr8x3ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <1149443841.948685.148840@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Hello

> ...         _, first_n = group[0]

what is the meaning of the underscore "_" ? is it a special var ? or
should it be readed as a way of unpacking a tuple in a non useful var ?
like 

lost, first_n = group[0]

best regards.



From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Sun Jun  4 20:11:21 2006
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 12:11:21 -0600
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
In-Reply-To: <1149443841.948685.148840@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<Sc6dnfPcW7Fr8x3ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@comcast.com>
	<1149443841.948685.148840@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <gOmdnUTJB-Davx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@comcast.com>

joh12005 at yahoo.fr wrote:
>> ...         _, first_n = group[0]
> 
> what is the meaning of the underscore "_" ? is it a special var ? or
> should it be readed as a way of unpacking a tuple in a non useful var ?
> like 
> 
> lost, first_n = group[0]

Yep, it's just another name.  "lost" would have worked just as well. 
It's pretty typical around here to see "_" used when a tuple is unpacked 
but some of the values aren't used.  So if you see something like::

     for _, dirs, _ in os.walk(top):
         ...

it just means that the "..." code is only going to use "dirs" (not the 
root path or files that are also available from the os.walk() iterator).

STeVe


From sreeram at tachyontech.net  Sun Jun  4 20:12:20 2006
From: sreeram at tachyontech.net (K.S.Sreeram)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 23:42:20 +0530
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
In-Reply-To: <1149443841.948685.148840@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<Sc6dnfPcW7Fr8x3ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@comcast.com>
	<1149443841.948685.148840@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <44832284.30203@tachyontech.net>

Yup! '_' is just used as a dummy. Its a pretty common idiom. There's
nothing special about that variable.

joh12005 at yahoo.fr wrote:
> Hello
> 
>> ...         _, first_n = group[0]
> 
> what is the meaning of the underscore "_" ? is it a special var ? or
> should it be readed as a way of unpacking a tuple in a non useful var ?
> like 
> 
> lost, first_n = group[0]
> 
> best regards.
> 


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From grflanagan at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jun  3 21:27:41 2006
From: grflanagan at yahoo.co.uk (Gerard Flanagan)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 12:27:41 -0700
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
In-Reply-To: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149362861.558049.172100@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

joh12005 at yahoo.fr wrote:
> hello,
>
> i'm looking for a way to have a list of number grouped by consecutive
> interval, after a search, for example :
>
> [3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]
>
> =>
>
> [[3, 4], [6,9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]
>
> (6, not following 3, so 3 => [3:4] ; 7, 8 following 6 so 6, 7, 8 =>
> [6:9], and so on)


Just another 'itertools.groupby' variation.  It considers the whole
range of numbers spanned by the dataset - eg. in your example,
range(3,17) - so possibly not very efficient if the range is large and
the data sparse within the range.

def get_intervals(data):
  intervals = [ [], [] ]
  for k,g in groupby(range(data[0],data[-1]+2), lambda x:x in data):
    intervals[k].append( list(g)[0] )  #k is 0 or 1
  return zip(intervals[1],intervals[0])

a = [3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]

assert get_intervals(a) == [(3,4),(6, 9),(12,14),(15,16)]   


Gerard



From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Sun Jun  4 00:21:07 2006
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 16:21:07 -0600
Subject: grouping a flat list of number by range
In-Reply-To: <1149362861.558049.172100@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149196642.001466.53990@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149362861.558049.172100@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <S_Kdna8FJvfFlh_ZnZ2dnUVZ_uqdnZ2d@comcast.com>

Gerard Flanagan wrote:
> joh12005 at yahoo.fr wrote:
>> hello,
>>
>> i'm looking for a way to have a list of number grouped by consecutive
>> interval, after a search, for example :
>>
>> [3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 15]
>>
>> =>
>>
>> [[3, 4], [6,9], [12, 14], [15, 16]]
>>
>> (6, not following 3, so 3 => [3:4] ; 7, 8 following 6 so 6, 7, 8 =>
>> [6:9], and so on)
> 
> Just another 'itertools.groupby' variation.  It considers the whole
> range of numbers spanned by the dataset - eg. in your example,
> range(3,17) - so possibly not very efficient if the range is large and
> the data sparse within the range.
> 
> def get_intervals(data):
>   intervals = [ [], [] ]
>   for k,g in groupby(range(data[0],data[-1]+2), lambda x:x in data):
>     intervals[k].append( list(g)[0] )  #k is 0 or 1
>   return zip(intervals[1],intervals[0])

If you're gonna go this route, you should definitely use a set to check 
containment; ``x in data`` is going to be costly for long lists. 
Defining your key something like the following would be better::

     data_set = set(data)
     def key(x):
         return x in data_set

STeVe



From jjlee at reportlab.com  Fri Jun  2 00:26:34 2006
From: jjlee at reportlab.com (John J. Lee)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:26:34 GMT
Subject: ANN: ReportLab PDF Library version 2.0 and 1.21 released
Message-ID: <mailman.6460.1149258254.27775.python-announce-list@python.org>

ReportLab are proud to announce not one but two major releases of our PDF
document generation framework.

The ReportLab PDF Toolkit lets you generate rich flowing documents in PDF
from dynamic data, complete with multiple columns, tables and charts, at
extremely high speeds; and to generate charts and data graphics in PDF and
bitmap formats.  It was first released in mid-2000 and the previous stable
release, 1.20, was in late 2004.

The 2.0 release includes many new features, and works with Unicode or UTF8
input throughout.  This simplifies many things but may break old code that
uses non-ASCII input.  It should be trivial to upgrade your app using the
Python codecs package, which now includes codecs for most of the world's
languages.

  http://www.reportlab.org/whatsnew_2_0.html


We have also produced a 1.21 release with a number of minor enhancements
and bug fixes since 1.20, and with the old character handling behaviour.
This should provide a safe upgrade for all existing users.

  http://www.reportlab.org/whatsnew_1_21.html


ReportLab's commercial products (Report Markup Language, Diagra and
PageCatcher) also have their own 2.0 and 1.21 releases and are documented
on http://developer.reportlab.com/index.html.  Open source users are
encouraged to review the RML examples and test cases, which provide very
clear examples of what's possible with the underlying Python objects.


Best regards,


John


From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Fri Jun  2 01:04:10 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 19:04:10 -0400
Subject: Conditional Expressions in Python 2.4
Message-ID: <ukKfg.1618$Su3.139174@news20.bellglobal.com>

Hi,



I am using Python 2.4. I read the PEP 308 at:

http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0308/



I tried the statement:



a= "Yes" if 1==1 else "No"



but the interpreter doesn't accept it.



Do we have the conditional expressions in Python 2.4?



Thank you,

Alan




From robert.kern at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 01:24:29 2006
From: robert.kern at gmail.com (Robert Kern)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 18:24:29 -0500
Subject: Conditional Expressions in Python 2.4
In-Reply-To: <ukKfg.1618$Su3.139174@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <ukKfg.1618$Su3.139174@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <e5nsvc$hmt$1@sea.gmane.org>

A.M wrote:

> Do we have the conditional expressions in Python 2.4?

No.

-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
 that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
 an underlying truth."
  -- Umberto Eco



From onurb at xiludom.gro  Fri Jun  2 11:24:07 2006
From: onurb at xiludom.gro (bruno at modulix)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:24:07 +0200
Subject: Conditional Expressions in Python 2.4
In-Reply-To: <ukKfg.1618$Su3.139174@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <ukKfg.1618$Su3.139174@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <4480042b$0$29879$636a55ce@news.free.fr>

A.M wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> I am using Python 2.4. I read the PEP 308 at:
> 
> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0308/
> 
> I tried the statement:
> 
> a= "Yes" if 1==1 else "No"
> 
> but the interpreter doesn't accept it.
> 
> Do we have the conditional expressions in Python 2.4?

No, AFAIK they'll be in for 2.5

In the meanwhile, there are (sometime tricky? ways to get the same result:

a = 1 == 1 and "Yes" or "No"
a = ("No", "Yes")[1 == 1]


-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb at xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"


From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Fri Jun  2 19:09:08 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 13:09:08 -0400
Subject: Conditional Expressions in Python 2.4
References: <ukKfg.1618$Su3.139174@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<4480042b$0$29879$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <Fd_fg.1804$Su3.155682@news20.bellglobal.com>


>> a = 1 == 1 and "Yes" or "No"
>> a = ("No", "Yes")[1 == 1]

Smart! Thanks alot.




From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 20:21:08 2006
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:21:08 -0600
Subject: Conditional Expressions in Python 2.4
In-Reply-To: <4480042b$0$29879$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
References: <ukKfg.1618$Su3.139174@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<4480042b$0$29879$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <7OidneazQ9UJHB3ZnZ2dnUVZ_sGdnZ2d@comcast.com>

A.M wrote:
 > Do we have the conditional expressions in Python 2.4?

bruno at modulix wrote:
> No, AFAIK they'll be in for 2.5

Yep:

Python 2.5a2 (trunk:46491M, May 27 2006, 14:43:55) [MSC v.1310 32 bit 
(Intel)] on win32
 >>> "Yes" if 1 == 1 else "No"
'Yes'

> In the meanwhile, there are (sometime tricky? ways to get the same result:
> 
> a = 1 == 1 and "Yes" or "No"
> a = ("No", "Yes")[1 == 1]


And just to give some examples where the conditional expression will 
show a difference::

 >>> True and 0 or []
[]
 >>> 0 if True else []
0

 >>> def f():
...     print "don't evaluate me"
...     return 'f'
...
 >>> def g():
...     return 'g'
...
 >>> (f(), g())[True]
don't evaluate me
'g'
 >>> g() if True else f()
'g'


STeVe


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Sat Jun  3 01:38:55 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 01:38:55 +0200
Subject: Conditional Expressions in Python 2.4
In-Reply-To: <7OidneazQ9UJHB3ZnZ2dnUVZ_sGdnZ2d@comcast.com>
References: <ukKfg.1618$Su3.139174@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<4480042b$0$29879$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
	<7OidneazQ9UJHB3ZnZ2dnUVZ_sGdnZ2d@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <44809c81$0$14874$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

Steven Bethard a ?crit :
> A.M wrote:
>  > Do we have the conditional expressions in Python 2.4?
> 
> bruno at modulix wrote:
> 
(snip)
> 
>> In the meanwhile, there are (sometime tricky? ways to get the same 
>> result:
>>
>> a = 1 == 1 and "Yes" or "No"
>> a = ("No", "Yes")[1 == 1]
> 
> And just to give some examples where the conditional expression will 
> show a difference::
> 
>  >>> True and 0 or []
> []

Yes, this is one of the tricky part !-)
<op>
Always make sure the second term doesn't eval to False.
</op>

> 
>  >>> def f():
> ...     print "don't evaluate me"
> ...     return 'f'
> ...
>  >>> def g():
> ...     return 'g'
> ...
>  >>> (f(), g())[True]

Why on earth are you calling the callables *before* testing ?
Should be:

(f, g)[True]()

of course.


From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Fri Jun  2 01:08:04 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 19:08:04 -0400
Subject: Can Python format long integer 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?
Message-ID: <8oKfg.1621$Su3.139425@news20.bellglobal.com>

Hi,

Is there any built in feature in Python that can format long integer 
123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?

Thank you,
Alan





From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Fri Jun  2 01:58:59 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 09:58:59 +1000
Subject: Can Python format long integer 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?
In-Reply-To: <8oKfg.1621$Su3.139425@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <8oKfg.1621$Su3.139425@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <447f7f43$1@news.eftel.com>

On 2/06/2006 9:08 AM, A.M wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Is there any built in feature in Python that can format long integer 
> 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?
> 
> Thank you,
> Alan

Not that I know of, but this little kludge may help:
8<---
import re

subber = re.compile(r'^(-?\d+)(\d{3})').sub

def fmt_thousands(amt, sep):
     if amt in ('', '-'):
         return ''
     repl = r'\1' + sep + r'\2'
     while True:
         new_amt = subber(repl, amt)
         if new_amt == amt:
             return amt
         amt = new_amt

if __name__ == "__main__":
     for prefix in ['', '-']:
         for k in range(11):
             arg = prefix + "1234567890.1234"[k:]
             print "<%s> <%s>" % (arg, fmt_thousands(arg, ","))
8<---

HTH,
John


From wblock at wonkity.com  Sat Jun  3 06:47:24 2006
From: wblock at wonkity.com (Warren Block)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 04:47:24 -0000
Subject: Can Python format long integer 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?
References: <8oKfg.1621$Su3.139425@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<447f7f43$1@news.eftel.com>
Message-ID: <slrne8252s.2mu5.wblock@speedy.wonkity.com>

John Machin <sjmachin at lexicon.net> wrote:
> On 2/06/2006 9:08 AM, A.M wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Is there any built in feature in Python that can format long integer 
>> 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> Alan
>
> Not that I know of, but this little kludge may help:
> 8<---
> import re
>
> subber = re.compile(r'^(-?\d+)(\d{3})').sub
>
> def fmt_thousands(amt, sep):
>      if amt in ('', '-'):
>          return ''
>      repl = r'\1' + sep + r'\2'
>      while True:
>          new_amt = subber(repl, amt)
>          if new_amt == amt:
>              return amt
>          amt = new_amt
>
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>      for prefix in ['', '-']:
>          for k in range(11):
>              arg = prefix + "1234567890.1234"[k:]
>              print "<%s> <%s>" % (arg, fmt_thousands(arg, ","))
> 8<---

Why not just port the Perl "commify" code?  You're close to it, at least
for the regex:

# From perldoc perlfaq5
# 1 while s/^([-+]?\d+)(\d{3})/$1,$2/;

# Python version

import re

def commify(n):
    while True:
        (n, count) = re.subn(r'^([-+]?\d+)(\d{3})', r'\1,\2', n)
        if count == 0: break
    return n

-- 
Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota * USA


From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Fri Jun  2 02:10:47 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 17:10:47 -0700
Subject: Can Python format long integer 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?
In-Reply-To: <8oKfg.1621$Su3.139425@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <8oKfg.1621$Su3.139425@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <1149207047.692374.114300@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


A.M wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Is there any built in feature in Python that can format long integer
> 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?
>

Sorry about my previous post. It would produce 123,456,789.
"12,3456,789" is weird -- whose idea PHB or yours??



From bencvt at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 02:15:59 2006
From: bencvt at gmail.com (Ben Cartwright)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 17:15:59 -0700
Subject: Can Python format long integer 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?
In-Reply-To: <1149207047.692374.114300@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <8oKfg.1621$Su3.139425@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<1149207047.692374.114300@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149207358.977942.245060@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

John Machin wrote:
> A.M wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Is there any built in feature in Python that can format long integer
> > 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?
> >
>
> Sorry about my previous post. It would produce 123,456,789.
> "12,3456,789" is weird -- whose idea PHB or yours??

If it's not a typo, it's probably a regional thing.  See, e.g.,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_numbering_system

--Ben



From bencvt at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 02:11:16 2006
From: bencvt at gmail.com (Ben Cartwright)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 17:11:16 -0700
Subject: Can Python format long integer 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?
References: <8oKfg.1621$Su3.139425@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <1149207075.954869.100130@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

A.M wrote:
> Is there any built in feature in Python that can format long integer
> 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?

The locale module can help you here:

  >>> import locale
  >>> locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, '')
  'English_United States.1252'
  >>> locale.format('%d', 123456789, True)
  '123,456,789'

Be sure to read the caveats for setlocale in the module docs:
  http://docs.python.org/lib/node323.html
I'd recommend calling setlocale only once, and always at the start of
your program.

--Ben



From james.wondrasek at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 02:13:47 2006
From: james.wondrasek at gmail.com (james.wondrasek at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 17:13:47 -0700
Subject: Can Python format long integer 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?
References: <8oKfg.1621$Su3.139425@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <1149207227.173231.126990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


A.M wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Is there any built in feature in Python that can format long integer
> 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?
>
> Thank you,
> Alan

I did this for putting commas into monetary amounts (thus the .2f):

def commas(value):
        return "".join(commafy("%.2f" % value))

def commafy(s):
        pieces = s.split(".")
        l = len(pieces[0])
        for i in range(0,l):
                if (l - i) % 3 or not i:
                        yield pieces[0][i]
                else:
                        yield ","
                        yield pieces[0][i]
        if len(pieces) > 1:
                yield "." + pieces[1]


jtm



From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Fri Jun  2 02:40:35 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 17:40:35 -0700
Subject: Can Python format long integer 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?
In-Reply-To: <1149207227.173231.126990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <8oKfg.1621$Su3.139425@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<1149207227.173231.126990@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149208835.496934.303730@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>


james.wondrasek at gmail.com wrote:
> A.M wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Is there any built in feature in Python that can format long integer
> > 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Alan
>
> I did this for putting commas into monetary amounts (thus the .2f):
>
> def commas(value):
>         return "".join(commafy("%.2f" % value))
>
> def commafy(s):
>         pieces = s.split(".")
>         l = len(pieces[0])
>         for i in range(0,l):
>                 if (l - i) % 3 or not i:
>                         yield pieces[0][i]
>                 else:
>                         yield ","
>                         yield pieces[0][i]
>         if len(pieces) > 1:
>                 yield "." + pieces[1]
> 

I dips me lid -- that's far fuglier than mine!!!



From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Fri Jun  2 03:20:23 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:20:23 -0400
Subject: Can Python format long integer 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?
References: <8oKfg.1621$Su3.139425@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <bkMfg.1639$Su3.142430@news20.bellglobal.com>



Thanks for help. Is there any comprehensive library for number formatting 
available on the net?



Alan






From no at spam.please  Fri Jun  2 05:16:38 2006
From: no at spam.please (D H)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:16:38 -0500
Subject: Can Python format long integer 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?
In-Reply-To: <8oKfg.1621$Su3.139425@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <8oKfg.1621$Su3.139425@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <cN2dnSe6S84SMOLZRVn-gw@comcast.com>

A.M wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Is there any built in feature in Python that can format long integer 
> 123456789 to 12,3456,789 ?

Apparently you need to use the locale module.  This is the
example they give online to print a simple number with commas:

import locale
locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, 'English_United States.1252')
print locale.format("%d", 123456789, grouping=True)

Someone should make a module that uses .NET or Java's formmating.
You just use {0:n} or ###,### instead of all the above.
http://blog.stevex.net/index.php/string-formatting-in-csharp/
http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/i18n/format/decimalFormat.html


From JKolstad71HatesSpam at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  2 01:27:22 2006
From: JKolstad71HatesSpam at yahoo.com (Joel Kolstad)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:27:22 -0700
Subject: Recommendations for CD/DVD-based or on-line Python classes?
Message-ID: <127uturbd73g5ca@corp.supernews.com>

Just curious... I have plenty of programming background (C++ being the closest 
to Python), and I have a copy of Lutz's "Learning Python," but before I dive 
head-first into that tome, does anyone know of a web-based or CD/DVD-based 
training class that's priced for individuals?

Example of what I'm looking for: Something like 6 or 7 years ago Ziff-Davis 
had a bunch of on-line instructor-lead courses, where you'd read a chapter in 
a book, read the instructor's take on the chapter (just a few pages), perform 
the programming assignments, and ask the instructor if you had any 
difficulties.  There was a solid schedule (ch. 1 this week, ch. 2 the next, 
etc. -- courses repeated every quarter or somesuch) as well.  Ziff-Davis 
charged something like $99 or $199/year for this service (all the courses you 
wanted to sign up for -- quite reasonable, IMO) and also made money by 
requiring the use of their own books (which were often someone else's book 
that they'd just put their own name on) -- which were usually cheap enough at 
something like $30/ea.

That whole setup worked quite well for me... anyone know of something similar? 
If not I probably will have to force myself to spend an hour a day or 
something going through Lutz's book...

Thanks,
---Joel Kolstad




From scott.daniels at acm.org  Fri Jun  2 01:49:32 2006
From: scott.daniels at acm.org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:49:32 -0700
Subject: Recommendations for CD/DVD-based or on-line Python classes?
In-Reply-To: <127uturbd73g5ca@corp.supernews.com>
References: <127uturbd73g5ca@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <447f78a4$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Joel Kolstad wrote:
> Just curious... I have plenty of programming background (C++ being the closest 
> to Python), and I have a copy of Lutz's "Learning Python," but before I dive 
> head-first into that tome, does anyone know of a web-based or CD/DVD-based 
> training class that's priced for individuals?
> 
> Example of what I'm looking for: Something like 6 or 7 years ago Ziff-Davis 
> had a bunch of on-line instructor-lead courses, where you'd read a chapter in 
> a book, read the instructor's take on the chapter (just a few pages), perform 
> the programming assignments, and ask the instructor if you had any 
> difficulties.  There was a solid schedule (ch. 1 this week, ch. 2 the next, 
> etc. -- courses repeated every quarter or somesuch) as well.  Ziff-Davis 
> charged something like $99 or $199/year for this service (all the courses you 
> wanted to sign up for -- quite reasonable, IMO) and also made money by 
> requiring the use of their own books (which were often someone else's book 
> that they'd just put their own name on) -- which were usually cheap enough at 
> something like $30/ea.
> 
> That whole setup worked quite well for me... anyone know of something similar? 
> If not I probably will have to force myself to spend an hour a day or 
> something going through Lutz's book...
> 
> Thanks,
> ---Joel Kolstad
> 
> 
Well, you could read through all the web thingies around (the online
tutorial is great), many others listed "getting started" should help,
and to really build your muscles, try the "Python challenge."

-- 
--Scott David Daniels
scott.daniels at acm.org


From overly.crazy.steve at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 02:30:30 2006
From: overly.crazy.steve at gmail.com (overly.crazy.steve at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 17:30:30 -0700
Subject: execfile then import back
Message-ID: <1149208230.216141.5400@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

I am seeing something strange with execfile. I've simplified the code
to:

########## t.py ##########
print "here"
v = None

def f():
    global v
    v = 6

if __name__ == "__main__":
    f()
    print "0:", v
    execfile("x.py")
    print "0:", v
    execfile("y.py")
    print "0:", v

########## x.py and y.py (they are identical) ##########
import testexec
print "1:", v, testexec.v
testexec.v = 7

Runing "python t.py" (with Python 2.4.2), the printout I got is:

here
0: 6
here
1: 6 None
0: 6
1: 6 7
0: 6

So there is apparently 2 different instances of v at run time. Can
someone please explain (1) why this is the case, and (2) assuming this
is correct behavior, how I can avoid this? Thanks.



From overly.crazy.steve at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 02:35:03 2006
From: overly.crazy.steve at gmail.com (overly.crazy.steve at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 17:35:03 -0700
Subject: execfile then import back
In-Reply-To: <1149208230.216141.5400@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149208230.216141.5400@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149208503.207296.204200@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

> ########## x.py and y.py (they are identical) ##########
> import testexec
> print "1:", v, testexec.v
> testexec.v = 7

Oops, testexec should be changed to t instead. That is:

########## x.py and y.py (they are identical) ##########
import t
print "1:", v, t.v
t.v = 7



From overly.crazy.steve at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 20:12:38 2006
From: overly.crazy.steve at gmail.com (overly.crazy.steve at gmail.com)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 11:12:38 -0700
Subject: execfile then import back
In-Reply-To: <h8gv725ieebcav6d4vl9s15o5k6e07iao2@4ax.com>
References: <1149208230.216141.5400@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<1149208503.207296.204200@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<h8gv725ieebcav6d4vl9s15o5k6e07iao2@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1149271958.509934.141110@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> 	And the problem you are seeing is that the initial "v" in the t.py
> that you "run", is considered "__main__.v", NOT "t.v"

Yes, the 2 different copies of v apparently imply that __main__ and t
are 2 different modules. But I had expected __main__ to be an alias of
t. Can you point out the passage in Python doc that explains this?



From marv at mailcity.com  Fri Jun  2 03:35:24 2006
From: marv at mailcity.com (Marvin)
Date: 02 Jun 2006 01:35:24 GMT
Subject: Inheritance structure less important in dynamic languages?
Message-ID: <447f95dc$0$1167$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>


Hi,

It's been claimed that inheritance structures are less important in dynamic
languages like Python. Why is that and where can i read more about that?

/Marv


From bignose+hates-spam at benfinney.id.au  Fri Jun  2 07:22:58 2006
From: bignose+hates-spam at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:22:58 +1000
Subject: Inheritance structure less important in dynamic languages?
References: <447f95dc$0$1167$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>
Message-ID: <87verkxhal.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

"Marvin" <marv at mailcity.com> writes:

> It's been claimed that inheritance structures are less important in
> dynamic languages like Python.

Who claimed that? I ask not because I doubt your assertion ("it was
claimed"), but rather that if someone claimed something, it seems
better to ask that person your next question:

> Why is that and where can i read more about that?

The person who claimed it is more likely to be able and willing to
defend it.

-- 
 \       Eccles: "I just saw the Earth through the clouds!"  Lew: "Did |
  `\     it look round?"  Eccles: "Yes, but I don't think it saw me."  |
_o__)                          -- The Goon Show, _Wings Over Dagenham_ |
Ben Finney



From onurb at xiludom.gro  Fri Jun  2 11:40:21 2006
From: onurb at xiludom.gro (bruno at modulix)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:40:21 +0200
Subject: Inheritance structure less important in dynamic languages?
In-Reply-To: <447f95dc$0$1167$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>
References: <447f95dc$0$1167$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>
Message-ID: <448007f9$0$20891$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

Marvin wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> It's been claimed 

s/claimed/observed/

In Python and Ruby, class hierarchies tends to be *really* flat when
compared to Java or C++.

> that inheritance structures are less important in dynamic
> languages like Python. Why is that

Don't you guess ?-)

A very obvious point is that in a dynamically typed language,
inheritence is only about implementation - it's not used for class-based
polymorphism (subtyping).

Also, dynamic languages are usually very strong on introspection and
offer good support for automatic delegation ("DoesNotUnderstand" in
Smalltalk, __getattr__ in Python, etc), which tend to lower the use of
inheritence for "private inheritence" (ie: implementation reuse without
any subtyping semantic).

This leaves with only three real use-case for inheritence :
 * factoring common features of a set of related classes in an abstract
base class
 * specialisation of an existing class (proper subclassing),
 * mixins.

> and where can i read more about that?

"duck typing", "implied interface" and "composition/delegation" could be
good starting points for a google search.

-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb at xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"


From neuruss at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 04:09:13 2006
From: neuruss at gmail.com (Neuruss)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 19:09:13 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
Message-ID: <1149214153.359809.288610@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

I'm sorry for asking about another language here, but since I only know
Python and I'm trying to write something in C#, I guess this is the
best place...

I'd like to know how to write this in C#:

x=[]
sz = 10000000
x.extend(range(sz))

My question is about "range" and "extend". Is there any equivalent in
C#?

Thanks in advance,
Neuruss



From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Fri Jun  2 04:14:51 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 19:14:51 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <1149214153.359809.288610@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149214153.359809.288610@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149214491.034665.29030@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


Neuruss wrote:
> I'm sorry for asking about another language here, but since I only know
> Python and I'm trying to write something in C#, I guess this is the
> best place...
> 

Bad guess. Ask questions about language X on comp.lang.X



From neuruss at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 05:05:47 2006
From: neuruss at gmail.com (Neuruss)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 20:05:47 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
References: <1149214153.359809.288610@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149214491.034665.29030@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149217547.618703.209770@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

John Machin wrote:
> Neuruss wrote:
> > I'm sorry for asking about another language here, but since I only know
> > Python and I'm trying to write something in C#, I guess this is the
> > best place...
> >
>
> Bad guess. Ask questions about language X on comp.lang.X

Well, perhaps I should.
And I should also explain how range and extend work in python, which is
almost the same thing...

I thougt that maybe some python programmer could have experience here
with c# and give me a little hint.

But unfortunately, there are people here who are not willing to waste
their time helping, but enjoy to waste their time niggling...

Thanks anyway!
Neuruss



From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Fri Jun  2 05:08:52 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 20:08:52 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <1149217547.618703.209770@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149214153.359809.288610@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149214491.034665.29030@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149217547.618703.209770@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149217732.260986.295180@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>


Neuruss wrote:
> John Machin wrote:
> > Neuruss wrote:
> > > I'm sorry for asking about another language here, but since I only know
> > > Python and I'm trying to write something in C#, I guess this is the
> > > best place...
> > >
> >
> > Bad guess. Ask questions about language X on comp.lang.X
>
> Well, perhaps I should.
> And I should also explain how range and extend work in python, which is
> almost the same thing...
>
> I thougt that maybe some python programmer could have experience here
> with c# and give me a little hint.
>
> But unfortunately, there are people here who are not willing to waste
> their time helping, but enjoy to waste their time niggling...
> 

Plonk.



From max at alcyone.com  Fri Jun  2 07:11:38 2006
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:11:38 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <1149217547.618703.209770@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149214153.359809.288610@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149214491.034665.29030@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149217547.618703.209770@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <aOOdnV5Rz8AWVeLZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>

Neuruss wrote:

> I thougt that maybe some python programmer could have experience here
> with c# and give me a little hint.
> 
> But unfortunately, there are people here who are not willing to waste
> their time helping, but enjoy to waste their time niggling...

Yeah, what jerks.  They actually wanted to talk about Python, not some 
random other language that you're trying to learn that has nothing to do 
with it ...

-- 
Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
   A man can stand a lot as long as he can stand himself.
   -- Axel Munthe


From luismgz at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 07:36:13 2006
From: luismgz at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Luis_M._Gonz=E1lez?=)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 22:36:13 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
References: <1149214153.359809.288610@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149214491.034665.29030@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149217547.618703.209770@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<aOOdnV5Rz8AWVeLZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <1149226573.446484.17340@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Erik Max Francis wrote:
> Yeah, what jerks.  They actually wanted to talk about Python, not some
> random other language that you're trying to learn that has nothing to do
> with it ...

There are thousands of threads to choose from in this forum.
If they didn't like this question, they could have picked any other one
to discuss.
There's no need to be disagreeable :-)

Luis



From mcPas.De.Spam at mclaveauPas.De.Spam.com  Fri Jun  2 08:12:34 2006
From: mcPas.De.Spam at mclaveauPas.De.Spam.com (Michel Claveau)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:12:34 +0200
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
References: <1149214153.359809.288610@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149214491.034665.29030@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149217547.618703.209770@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<aOOdnV5Rz8AWVeLZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<1149226573.446484.17340@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <mn.11ec7d66847786a4.34209@mclaveauPas.De.Spam.com>

Hi!

> There are thousands of threads to choose from in this forum.
> If they didn't like this question, they could have picked any other one
> to discuss.
> There's no need to be disagreeable :-)

I think the same thing.

-- 
@-salutations

Michel Claveau




From max at alcyone.com  Mon Jun  5 23:46:55 2006
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:46:55 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <1149226573.446484.17340@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149214153.359809.288610@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149214491.034665.29030@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149217547.618703.209770@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<aOOdnV5Rz8AWVeLZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<1149226573.446484.17340@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <MZKdnRLTA-jSOxnZnZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>

Luis M. Gonz?lez wrote:

> There are thousands of threads to choose from in this forum.
> If they didn't like this question, they could have picked any other one
> to discuss.
> There's no need to be disagreeable :-)

Plenty of people _did_ helpfully respond to his question with the right 
answer.  The right answer is:  This is the wrong forum; as your question 
in a C#-related forum.

It was then the _original poster_ who became "disagreeable" by assigning 
motive to the people who _actually helped him_ by telling him the right 
place to ask his question, saying that the "enjoy to waste their time 
niggling."

He's complaining that people weren't nice to help.  But they _were_. 
They answered his question politely and to the point.  It's _he_ that 
turned rude after that.

-- 
Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
   What a crime to waste [youth] on children.
   -- George Bernard Shaw


From bignose+hates-spam at benfinney.id.au  Fri Jun  2 04:37:13 2006
From: bignose+hates-spam at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:37:13 +1000
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
References: <1149214153.359809.288610@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <87zmgwxoyu.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

"Neuruss" <neuruss at gmail.com> writes:

> I'm sorry for asking about another language here, but since I only
> know Python and I'm trying to write something in C#, I guess this is
> the best place...

Really, it isn't. Post in a C# discussion forum, describing the
behaviour you want from your program.

-- 
 \          "The only tyrant I accept in this world is the still voice |
  `\                                       within."  -- Mahatma Gandhi |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From no at spam.please  Fri Jun  2 04:55:57 2006
From: no at spam.please (D H)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:55:57 -0500
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <1149214153.359809.288610@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149214153.359809.288610@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <fr6dnXYc_9ErNeLZnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@comcast.com>

Neuruss wrote:
> I'm sorry for asking about another language here, but since I only know
> Python and I'm trying to write something in C#, I guess this is the
> best place...
> 
> I'd like to know how to write this in C#:
> 
> x=[]
> sz = 10000000
> x.extend(range(sz))
> 
> My question is about "range" and "extend". Is there any equivalent in
> C#?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Neuruss
> 

List<int> mylist = new List<int>();
for (int i=0; i<10000000; i++)
{
     mylist.Add(i);
}

You can use AddRange, C# 2.0 anonymous delegates, IEnumerable, yield, 
foreach, and so forth instead, but for your example this is simplest.

Another option is to use boo.  http://boo.codehaus.org/
It uses python's syntax but is as fast as C#.  The only change you'd
have to make in that code is to capitalize the Extend method call.


From neuruss at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 05:07:07 2006
From: neuruss at gmail.com (Neuruss)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 20:07:07 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <fr6dnXYc_9ErNeLZnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@comcast.com>
References: <1149214153.359809.288610@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<fr6dnXYc_9ErNeLZnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <1149217627.026986.215280@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Thank you DH!!



D H wrote:
> Neuruss wrote:
> > I'm sorry for asking about another language here, but since I only know
> > Python and I'm trying to write something in C#, I guess this is the
> > best place...
> >
> > I'd like to know how to write this in C#:
> >
> > x=[]
> > sz = 10000000
> > x.extend(range(sz))
> >
> > My question is about "range" and "extend". Is there any equivalent in
> > C#?
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Neuruss
> >
>
> List<int> mylist = new List<int>();
> for (int i=0; i<10000000; i++)
> {
>      mylist.Add(i);
> }
>
> You can use AddRange, C# 2.0 anonymous delegates, IEnumerable, yield,
> foreach, and so forth instead, but for your example this is simplest.
>
> Another option is to use boo.  http://boo.codehaus.org/
> It uses python's syntax but is as fast as C#.  The only change you'd
> have to make in that code is to capitalize the Extend method call.



From tdelaney at avaya.com  Mon Jun  5 00:29:58 2006
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy (Tim))
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 08:29:58 +1000
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
Message-ID: <2773CAC687FD5F4689F526998C7E4E5F074380@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Luis M. Gonz?lez wrote:

> There are thousands of threads to choose from in this forum.
> If they didn't like this question, they could have picked any other
> one to discuss.
> There's no need to be disagreeable :-)

Well, there are reasons to reply to a message stating that it's not on-topic for the group. The most common reaction to receiving no replies is to start a new thread petulantly asking why there were no answers to the original thread. If that one gets no replies the most common reaction is start another new thread stating that Python sucks, the newsgroup sucks, etc.

Not saying that this is what would have happened in this case, but it is the most common sequence of events. Better to head it off before it happens. At least any upset replies tend to be restricted to the one thread ;)

Unfortunately, posting a good response, whilst apparently helpful, tends to encourage further off-topic postings :(

Tim Delaney


From neuruss at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 02:55:19 2006
From: neuruss at gmail.com (Neuruss)
Date: 4 Jun 2006 17:55:19 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

Delaney, Timothy (Tim) wrote:
> Well, there are reasons to reply to a message stating that it's not on-topic for the group. The most common reaction to receiving no replies is to start a new thread petulantly asking why there were no answers to the original thread. If that one gets no replies the most common reaction is start another new thread stating that Python sucks, the newsgroup sucks, etc.
>
> Not saying that this is what would have happened in this case, but it is the most common sequence of events. Better to head it off before it happens. At least any upset replies tend to be restricted to the one thread ;)
>
> Unfortunately, posting a good response, whilst apparently helpful, tends to encourage further off-topic postings :(
>
> Tim Delaney

Tim,

I don't think it was entirely off topic, although I understand your
point.
It happens that I'm using Ironpython, and I wanted to improve the
performance of a script by writing a c# extension.
Writing extensions in other languages (c, c++ and now c#) is a common
practice amongst python programers, and that was the purpose of my
question.

I asked especifically the equivalence of a couple of python features in
this language.
And I did it here, because chances were that someone would understand
what I was asking, (which was how to translate those python features
into another language).

I could have asked this question in a c# related forum, but then I
should have had to explain how "range" and "extend" work in python...

Actualy, someone replied with a couple of lines, and this was just what
I wanted!
That person was very kind and I'm sure it didn't take more than a few
seconds to write his reply. I'm sure he was satisfied by helping me,
and I was satisfied too by his kind reply.

What about the others?
Are they worried about the storage limit of this forum perhaps?
Or it was the wasted bandwidth?
What was exactly the reason for being that annoyed? Am I forcing them
to read my question or to post a reply?

I grant that perhaps I should have explained why I needed this advice.
But I'm not using this forum to learn another thing. I am a (budding)
python programmer looking for a solution, and my question was very
especific and to the point.

Anyway, if someone still feels that the question is off topic, there
are better ways to point it out (as you're doing now).

If these people's life suck, I suggest they buy a punching bag to
discharge their frustation. I don't think this forum is the best place
for doing it.

Regards,
Neuruss



From neuruss at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 06:27:55 2006
From: neuruss at gmail.com (Neuruss)
Date: 4 Jun 2006 21:27:55 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> 	What most of us saw was a blunt request on how to implement a Python
> construct in some other language that may not be familiar to us.

I'm curious, who are "us"?



From max at alcyone.com  Mon Jun  5 08:26:05 2006
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 23:26:05 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>
	<1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CKWdnd1ZbM7jUx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>

Neuruss wrote:

> Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>> 	What most of us saw was a blunt request on how to implement a Python
>> construct in some other language that may not be familiar to us.
> 
> I'm curious, who are "us"?

The regular readers of comp.lang.python.  If you don't think we haven't 
seen this a zillion times before, you're kidding yourself.

If you want help on a language, ask in that language's newsgroup/mailing 
list/forum/whatever.

It surprises me how often people don't ask useful questions, or 
deliberately and knowingly ask questions in the wrong places, and then 
actually _defend_ their actions after they're politely but firmly 
informed how to fix the problem.  You're really not making yourself look 
any better by continuing this thread ...

-- 
Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
   Democritus may have come from Abdera, but he was no dummy.
   -- Carl Sagan


From neuruss at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 14:18:13 2006
From: neuruss at gmail.com (Neuruss)
Date: 5 Jun 2006 05:18:13 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <CKWdnd1ZbM7jUx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>
	<1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<CKWdnd1ZbM7jUx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Erik Max Francis wrote:
> > I'm curious, who are "us"?
>
> The regular readers of comp.lang.python.  If you don't think we haven't
> seen this a zillion times before, you're kidding yourself.
>
> If you want help on a language, ask in that language's newsgroup/mailing
> list/forum/whatever.
>
> It surprises me how often people don't ask useful questions, or
> deliberately and knowingly ask questions in the wrong places, and then
> actually _defend_ their actions after they're politely but firmly
> informed how to fix the problem.  You're really not making yourself look
> any better by continuing this thread ...

Just to finish this thread:
1) It wasn't a blunt question. I started the post apologizing for the
(not entirely) off opic question.
2) I wasn't politely informed. It was pretty harshly.
3) If you mean that "us" are the zillion registered users of this
mailing list, well buddy, you know a whole lot of people!
4) At least one of these people replied kindly and correctly to my
question within seconds. Three of four more spent several minutes
whining.
The other zilion persons who were not interested (other than the four I
mentioned above) silently and peacefully ignored the question on went
on with their happy lifes.

? bient?t,
Neuruss



From fredrik at pythonware.com  Mon Jun  5 22:24:48 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:24:48 +0200
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>	<1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>	<vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>	<1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<CKWdnd1ZbM7jUx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e623ug$ccf$1@sea.gmane.org>

Neuruss wrote:

> [more childish blah blah blah]

do you think the few of us who haven't already done so would miss 
anything if we plonked you now?

</F>



From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 00:05:40 2006
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Fuzzyman)
Date: 5 Jun 2006 15:05:40 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>
	<1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<CKWdnd1ZbM7jUx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149545140.011616.130610@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Neuruss wrote:
> Erik Max Francis wrote:
> > > I'm curious, who are "us"?
> >
> > The regular readers of comp.lang.python.  If you don't think we haven't
> > seen this a zillion times before, you're kidding yourself.
> >
> > If you want help on a language, ask in that language's newsgroup/mailing
> > list/forum/whatever.
> >
> > It surprises me how often people don't ask useful questions, or
> > deliberately and knowingly ask questions in the wrong places, and then
> > actually _defend_ their actions after they're politely but firmly
> > informed how to fix the problem.  You're really not making yourself look
> > any better by continuing this thread ...
>
> Just to finish this thread:
> 1) It wasn't a blunt question. I started the post apologizing for the
> (not entirely) off opic question.
> 2) I wasn't politely informed. It was pretty harshly.
> 3) If you mean that "us" are the zillion registered users of this
> mailing list, well buddy, you know a whole lot of people!
> 4) At least one of these people replied kindly and correctly to my
> question within seconds. Three of four more spent several minutes
> whining.
> The other zilion persons who were not interested (other than the four I
> mentioned above) silently and peacefully ignored the question on went
> on with their happy lifes.
>

FWIW I agree. If anyone didn't want to answer the question they didn't
need to.

Why be rude to someone asking a polite question. It's not as if there
isn't much more *worse* noise on this group.

Fuzzyman
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml

> ? bient?t,
> Neuruss



From max at alcyone.com  Tue Jun  6 00:27:08 2006
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:27:08 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <1149545140.011616.130610@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>
	<1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<CKWdnd1ZbM7jUx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149545140.011616.130610@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <sIednWPp2s8hMhnZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@speakeasy.net>

Fuzzyman wrote:

> FWIW I agree. If anyone didn't want to answer the question they didn't
> need to.
> 
> Why be rude to someone asking a polite question. It's not as if there
> isn't much more *worse* noise on this group.

Here were the "harsh" and "whining" responses to his question he's 
complaining about:

| Bad guess. Ask questions about language X on comp.lang.X

| Really, it isn't. Post in a C# discussion forum, describing the
| behaviour you want from your program.

| *Very* strong suggestion - read the following link:
|
| http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Sorry, if you think those are unacceptable tones for responses to 
off-topic questions, the real world is going to be something of an 
unpleasant shock.

He asked a question.  He was told how to get the answer.  No one was 
rude until _he_ started being rude.

-- 
Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
   Society attacks early when the individual is helpless.
   -- B.F. Skinner


From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 00:32:16 2006
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Fuzzyman)
Date: 5 Jun 2006 15:32:16 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <sIednWPp2s8hMhnZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>
	<1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<CKWdnd1ZbM7jUx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149545140.011616.130610@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<sIednWPp2s8hMhnZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <1149546736.728440.74700@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


Erik Max Francis wrote:
> Fuzzyman wrote:
>
> > FWIW I agree. If anyone didn't want to answer the question they didn't
> > need to.
> >
> > Why be rude to someone asking a polite question. It's not as if there
> > isn't much more *worse* noise on this group.
>
> Here were the "harsh" and "whining" responses to his question he's
> complaining about:
>

Fair enough. Maybe they weren't "harsh" and "whining", just patronising
and abrupt.

Fuzzyman
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml

> | Bad guess. Ask questions about language X on comp.lang.X
>
> | Really, it isn't. Post in a C# discussion forum, describing the
> | behaviour you want from your program.
>
> | *Very* strong suggestion - read the following link:
> |
> | http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>
> Sorry, if you think those are unacceptable tones for responses to
> off-topic questions, the real world is going to be something of an
> unpleasant shock.
>
> He asked a question.  He was told how to get the answer.  No one was
> rude until _he_ started being rude.
>
> --
> Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
> San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
>    Society attacks early when the individual is helpless.
>    -- B.F. Skinner



From robert.kern at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 00:38:08 2006
From: robert.kern at gmail.com (Robert Kern)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:38:08 -0500
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <1149546736.728440.74700@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>	<1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>	<vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>	<1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<CKWdnd1ZbM7jUx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>	<1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<1149545140.011616.130610@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<sIednWPp2s8hMhnZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<1149546736.728440.74700@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e62boe$5u6$1@sea.gmane.org>

Fuzzyman wrote:
> Erik Max Francis wrote:

>>Here were the "harsh" and "whining" responses to his question he's
>>complaining about:
> 
> Fair enough. Maybe they weren't "harsh" and "whining", just patronising
> and abrupt.

Welcome to USENET!

-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
 that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
 an underlying truth."
  -- Umberto Eco



From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 00:41:44 2006
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Fuzzyman)
Date: 5 Jun 2006 15:41:44 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6578.1149547113.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>
	<1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<CKWdnd1ZbM7jUx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149545140.011616.130610@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<sIednWPp2s8hMhnZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<1149546736.728440.74700@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6578.1149547113.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149547304.607625.101670@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


Robert Kern wrote:
> Fuzzyman wrote:
> > Erik Max Francis wrote:
>
> >>Here were the "harsh" and "whining" responses to his question he's
> >>complaining about:
> >
> > Fair enough. Maybe they weren't "harsh" and "whining", just patronising
> > and abrupt.
>
> Welcome to USENET!

Well, this is true. Doesn't make it a *good* thing of course... :-)

Fuzzyman
http://www.voidspace.org/python/shareware.shtml

>
> --
> Robert Kern
>
> "I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
>  that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
>  an underlying truth."
>   -- Umberto Eco



From fredrik at pythonware.com  Tue Jun  6 08:23:29 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 08:23:29 +0200
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <1149547304.607625.101670@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>	<1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>	<vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>	<1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<CKWdnd1ZbM7jUx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>	<1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<1149545140.011616.130610@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>	<sIednWPp2s8hMhnZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@speakeasy.net>	<1149546736.728440.74700@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>	<mailman.6578.1149547113.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149547304.607625.101670@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e63711$aqs$1@sea.gmane.org>

Fuzzyman wrote:

> Well, this is true. Doesn't make it a *good* thing of course... :-)

on the other hand, the rules for what works and doesn't on public
forums have been finely tuned for many years.

that's why "the rules don't apply to me" people like Lee, "Neuruss",
and others get the kind of pushback they're getting.  and frankly,
their approach doesn't work in real life, so what makes you think it 
would work on the internet?

</F>



From luismgz at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 00:34:09 2006
From: luismgz at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Luis_M._Gonz=E1lez?=)
Date: 5 Jun 2006 15:34:09 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <1149545140.011616.130610@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>
	<1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<CKWdnd1ZbM7jUx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149545140.011616.130610@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149546849.406638.83870@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


Fuzzyman wrote:
> FWIW I agree. If anyone didn't want to answer the question they didn't
> need to.
>
> Why be rude to someone asking a polite question. It's not as if there
> isn't much more *worse* noise on this group.

I also agree.
Although the question may have appeared out of place, it wasn't
totally.
The poster asked the question very politely, apologizing in advance for
what may be consider an off-topyc question. He also said he only knew
python, and he probably wasn't able to explain the intended behaviour
he wanted in C# without refering to Python.

He is also very right when he says that those who were not interested
in the question could have simply ignored it. In exchange, he got a
couple of slighty rude replies and an ironic comment. What reaction do
you expect from him?



From scott.daniels at acm.org  Tue Jun  6 01:36:34 2006
From: scott.daniels at acm.org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:36:34 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <1149546849.406638.83870@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>
	<1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<CKWdnd1ZbM7jUx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149545140.011616.130610@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149546849.406638.83870@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4484bb7d$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Luis M. Gonz?lez wrote:
> Fuzzyman wrote:
>> FWIW I agree. If anyone didn't want to answer the question they didn't
>> need to.
>>
>> Why be rude to someone asking a polite question. It's not as if there
>> isn't much more *worse* noise on this group.
> 
> The poster asked the question very politely, apologizing in advance for
> what may be consider an off-topyc question.

Beginning a post by demonstrating that you know you are violating the
conventions of the group is _in_and_of_itself_ rude, and hence even
the first post was not a polite question.  If this were not true, then
all manner of spam would be polite.

--Scott David Daniels
scott.daniels at acm.org


From max at alcyone.com  Tue Jun  6 00:27:59 2006
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:27:59 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>
	<1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<CKWdnd1ZbM7jUx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <sIednWLp2s9yMhnZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@speakeasy.net>

Neuruss wrote:

> The other zilion persons who were not interested (other than the four I
> mentioned above) silently and peacefully ignored the question on went
> on with their happy lifes.

That's because many of them have killfiled you.

-- 
Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
   Society attacks early when the individual is helpless.
   -- B.F. Skinner


From antroy at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 10:21:44 2006
From: antroy at gmail.com (Ant)
Date: 6 Jun 2006 01:21:44 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <sIednWLp2s9yMhnZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>
	<1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<CKWdnd1ZbM7jUx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<sIednWLp2s9yMhnZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <1149582104.349641.252000@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

> That's because many of them have killfiled you.

I actually wonder whether anyone does use killfiles. I just can''t
imagine the sort of person who writes "plonk" or "welcome to my
killfile" etc could bear to miss out on a reply to such a post in case
there's more to get angry about!

And people who are not riled enough by a post to comment on it probably
would'nt be fired up enough to bother killfiling either...



From sybrenUSE at YOURthirdtower.com.imagination  Tue Jun  6 10:37:22 2006
From: sybrenUSE at YOURthirdtower.com.imagination (Sybren Stuvel)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:37:22 +0200
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>
	<1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<CKWdnd1ZbM7jUx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<sIednWLp2s9yMhnZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <slrne8afm2.9da.sybrenUSE@schuimige.stuvel.eu>

Erik Max Francis enlightened us with:
>> The other zilion persons who were not interested (other than the four I
>> mentioned above) silently and peacefully ignored the question on went
>> on with their happy lifes.
>
> That's because many of them have killfiled you.

I can say that I didn't killfile him. I just peacefully ignored the
question and went on with my happy life - I simply don't know anything
about C#.

Sybren
-- 
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? 
                                             Frank Zappa


From neuruss at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 02:27:07 2006
From: neuruss at gmail.com (Neuruss)
Date: 5 Jun 2006 17:27:07 -0700
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6575.1149539127.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6524.1149460244.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149468919.951745.163700@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<vda782djppm3aggo7kncahgp4c74eov3o9@4ax.com>
	<1149481675.192638.275140@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<CKWdnd1ZbM7jUx7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
	<1149509893.031953.19310@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6575.1149539127.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149553627.015779.27460@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> do you think the few of us who haven't already done so would miss
> anything if we plonked you now?


Oh, no...
How am I supposed to live without you, Freddie?



From tdelaney at avaya.com  Mon Jun  5 23:31:40 2006
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy (Tim))
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:31:40 +1000
Subject: C# equivalent to range()
Message-ID: <2773CAC687FD5F4689F526998C7E4E5FF1E753@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

*Very* strong suggestion - read the following link:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Tim Delaney


From meng.yan at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 07:01:08 2006
From: meng.yan at gmail.com (Mike Meng)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 22:01:08 -0700
Subject: Are there something like "Effective Python"?
Message-ID: <1149224468.481470.74580@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Hi all,
     I just finished reading Learning Python 3rd ed, and am doing my
first Python application, which   retrieves and process text and XML
documents from Web. Python helped me to write the application in a few
hours, I'm very happy with its productivity. But the performance is not
satisfactory. I decide to optimized it in Python before trying C/C++
extensions. But I don't know Python much and have no clu to tune my
program. Also, I don't know what Pythonist's preferred styles. Are
there any books/documents which play the similar role for Python as
'Effective C++' does for C++?

    For example, one of my friends read my program and suggest me to
move the re.compile() out of a for-loop, since the regular pattern is
fixed, and re.compile() is slow. I want to find more such advice, where
can I find them?

    Thank you.

Mike



From luismgz at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 07:44:44 2006
From: luismgz at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Luis_M._Gonz=E1lez?=)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 22:44:44 -0700
Subject: Are there something like "Effective Python"?
References: <1149224468.481470.74580@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149227084.592329.262420@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Mike Meng wrote:
> Hi all,
>      I just finished reading Learning Python 3rd ed, and am doing my
> first Python application, which   retrieves and process text and XML
> documents from Web. Python helped me to write the application in a few
> hours, I'm very happy with its productivity. But the performance is not
> satisfactory. I decide to optimized it in Python before trying C/C++
> extensions. But I don't know Python much and have no clu to tune my
> program. Also, I don't know what Pythonist's preferred styles. Are
> there any books/documents which play the similar role for Python as
> 'Effective C++' does for C++?
>
>     For example, one of my friends read my program and suggest me to
> move the re.compile() out of a for-loop, since the regular pattern is
> fixed, and re.compile() is slow. I want to find more such advice, where
> can I find them?
>
>     Thank you.
>
> Mike

http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonSpeed/PerformanceTips

Also, I suggest checking Psyco ( http://psyco.sourceforge.net/ ), which
can easily improve your program's speed with no change in your code.

Hope this helps...
Luis



From ray_usenet at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  2 08:02:17 2006
From: ray_usenet at yahoo.com (Ray)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 23:02:17 -0700
Subject: Are there something like "Effective Python"?
In-Reply-To: <1149224468.481470.74580@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149224468.481470.74580@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149228137.540238.161060@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

I think Aahz stated somewhere that he was workign on Effective Python.
I'm not sure if it's an ongoing plan or it's been canned though?

Mike Meng wrote:
> Hi all,
>      I just finished reading Learning Python 3rd ed, and am doing my
> first Python application, which   retrieves and process text and XML
> documents from Web. Python helped me to write the application in a few
> hours, I'm very happy with its productivity. But the performance is not
> satisfactory. I decide to optimized it in Python before trying C/C++
> extensions. But I don't know Python much and have no clu to tune my
> program. Also, I don't know what Pythonist's preferred styles. Are
> there any books/documents which play the similar role for Python as
> 'Effective C++' does for C++?
>
>     For example, one of my friends read my program and suggest me to
> move the re.compile() out of a for-loop, since the regular pattern is
> fixed, and re.compile() is slow. I want to find more such advice, where
> can I find them?
> 
>     Thank you.
> 
> Mike



From rpdooling at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 08:17:35 2006
From: rpdooling at gmail.com (BartlebyScrivener)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 23:17:35 -0700
Subject: Are there something like "Effective Python"?
References: <1149224468.481470.74580@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149229055.088793.89010@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

>> I just finished reading Learning Python 3rd ed,

For real? I thought there was only a 2nd edition.

http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/lpython2/



From meng.yan at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 10:15:38 2006
From: meng.yan at gmail.com (Mike Meng)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 01:15:38 -0700
Subject: Are there something like "Effective Python"?
In-Reply-To: <1149229055.088793.89010@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149224468.481470.74580@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149229055.088793.89010@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149236138.364915.189890@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Bart,
     I'm sorry, it's 2nd edtion.

    Thanks.

mike


BartlebyScrivener ???

> >> I just finished reading Learning Python 3rd ed,
>
> For real? I thought there was only a 2nd edition.
> 
> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/lpython2/



From bnblazer at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 17:35:05 2006
From: bnblazer at gmail.com (Brian)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 08:35:05 -0700
Subject: Are there something like "Effective Python"?
In-Reply-To: <1149236138.364915.189890@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149224468.481470.74580@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149229055.088793.89010@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149236138.364915.189890@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149262505.634173.126610@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


You might want to give this site a look:

http://www.livewires.org.uk/python/



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Jun  2 19:11:42 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 10:11:42 -0700
Subject: Are there something like "Effective Python"?
References: <1149224468.481470.74580@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5prge$1da$1@panix3.panix.com>

In article <1149224468.481470.74580 at i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Mike Meng <meng.yan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>     I just finished reading Learning Python 3rd ed, and am doing my
>first Python application, which   retrieves and process text and XML
>documents from Web. Python helped me to write the application in a few
>hours, I'm very happy with its productivity. But the performance is not
>satisfactory. I decide to optimized it in Python before trying C/C++
>extensions. But I don't know Python much and have no clu to tune my
>program. Also, I don't know what Pythonist's preferred styles. Are
>there any books/documents which play the similar role for Python as
>'Effective C++' does for C++?

<red face>  That's my fault.  I'm technically still under contract to
write _Effective Python_, but it has proven much more difficult to write
than I expected.  (Not in the sense of difficulty finding material, but
in sitting down and *writing*.)  I actually brought in David Goodger as
co-author and we still haven't been able to make progress.  :-(

Right now, I'm finishing up _Python for Dummies_ (which is mostly being
written by Stef -- I provide the technical expertise and editing), and
after a suitable resting time, we'll see if we can get back on track
with _Effective Python_
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped
right there."  --Steve Gonedes


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Jun  2 19:29:29 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 10:29:29 -0700
Subject: Are there something like "Effective Python"?
References: <1149224468.481470.74580@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5pshp$pif$1@panix3.panix.com>

In article <1149224468.481470.74580 at i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Mike Meng <meng.yan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>    For example, one of my friends read my program and suggest me to
>move the re.compile() out of a for-loop, since the regular pattern is
>fixed, and re.compile() is slow. I want to find more such advice, where
>can I find them?

Actually, that's a good example of a false optimization, unless you're
using a lot of different regexes in the loop or it's an extremely tight
loop, because the re module already caches regexes.  Still, if it's a
constant string, a good programmer would probably hoist it out of the
loop because you should hoist ALL constant assignments out of a loop.
(It's not particularly related to re.compile() in this case.)
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped
right there."  --Steve Gonedes


From gene.tani at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 19:55:36 2006
From: gene.tani at gmail.com (gene tani)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 10:55:36 -0700
Subject: Are there something like "Effective Python"?
In-Reply-To: <1149224468.481470.74580@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149224468.481470.74580@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149270936.264741.39820@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Mike Meng wrote:
> Hi all,
>      I just finished reading Learning Python 3rd ed, and am doing my
> first Python application, which   retrieves and process text and XML
> documents from Web. Python helped me to write the application in a few
> hours, I'm very happy with its productivity. But the performance is not
> satisfactory. I decide to optimized it in Python before trying C/C++
> extensions. But I don't know Python much and have no clu to tune my
> program. Also, I don't know what Pythonist's preferred styles. Are
> there any books/documents which play the similar role for Python as
> 'Effective C++' does for C++?
>
>     For example, one of my friends read my program and suggest me to
> move the re.compile() out of a for-loop, since the regular pattern is
> fixed, and re.compile() is slow. I want to find more such advice, where
> can I find them?
>

Here's some links to profiling tools

http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/profile.html
http://www.onlamp.com/lpt/a/6376
http://www.vrplumber.com/programming/runsnakerun/
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2006-January/318295.html



From sreeram at tachyontech.net  Fri Jun  2 08:28:07 2006
From: sreeram at tachyontech.net (Sreeram Kandallu)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:58:07 +0530
Subject: tp_richcompare
Message-ID: <447FDA77.4060507@tachyontech.net>

I'm writing an extension type, for which i'd like to implement only ==
and !=, but not the other comparison operators like <,<=,>,>=.
What is the right way to do this?
I currently have a tp_richcompare function, which handles Py_EQ, and
Py_NE, but raises a TypeError for the other operations. Is this the
'right' way?

Sreeram

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From ziga.seilnacht at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 10:28:14 2006
From: ziga.seilnacht at gmail.com (Ziga Seilnacht)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 01:28:14 -0700
Subject: tp_richcompare
References: <mailman.6444.1149233314.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149236894.705238.224090@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Sreeram Kandallu wrote:
> I'm writing an extension type, for which i'd like to implement only ==
> and !=, but not the other comparison operators like <,<=,>,>=.
> What is the right way to do this?
> I currently have a tp_richcompare function, which handles Py_EQ, and
> Py_NE, but raises a TypeError for the other operations. Is this the
> 'right' way?

Yes. This is exactly what the builtin complex type does.
 
> Sreeram
> 

Ziga



From praveenkumar.117 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 08:42:16 2006
From: praveenkumar.117 at gmail.com (praveenkumar.117 at gmail.com)
Date: 1 Jun 2006 23:42:16 -0700
Subject: Import Issue
Message-ID: <1149230536.375190.12150@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Hi all,
           I am facing a problem while importing a file in python
script.
           After doing import file i am updating that file. Later i am
accessing a dictionary contained in that
           file. Eventhough changes are reflected in the file... When i
access a dictionary those changes are
           not there. I believe that it is accessing from the object
file that is created when i did import at
           the start of the script. I will be kind enough if somebody
suggest solution to this problem.
Regards-
praveen



From hat at se-126.se.wtb.tue.nl  Fri Jun  2 12:55:10 2006
From: hat at se-126.se.wtb.tue.nl (A.T.Hofkamp)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:55:10 +0200
Subject: Import Issue
References: <1149230536.375190.12150@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <slrne8068e.igk.hat@se-126.se.wtb.tue.nl>

On 2006-06-02, praveenkumar.117 at gmail.com <praveenkumar.117 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
> After doing import file i am updating that file. Later i am
> accessing a dictionary contained in that
> file. Eventhough changes are reflected in the file... When i
> access a dictionary those changes are
> not there. I believe that it is accessing from the object
> file that is created when i did import at
> the start of the script. I will be kind enough if somebody
> suggest solution to this problem.

The easiest suggestion I can make is "don't do that".
An import statement is intended for importing static Python code, not for
importing dynamic data such as dictionaries that you update while running.

Your application is much easier to understand if you keep Python code and data
in seperate files.
For this, there are several options:

A.
If you stick to Python syntax of your data, you can load such files with 'open'
and 'read', followed by 'eval'

fp = open('datafile','r')
datatext = fp.read()
fp.close()
print eval datatext

B.
If you don't care about accessing the data outside Python, you can use the
pickle module to load and save the data.
(please read http://docs.python.org/lib/module-pickle.html for details).

C.
Last but not least, you can define your own data format, and write custom load
and save routines for accessing the data file. This approach is highly
flexible, but it does cost effort to write the routines.


Hope this answer your question,
Albert



From maric at aristote.info  Fri Jun  2 13:22:14 2006
From: maric at aristote.info (Maric Michaud)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 13:22:14 +0200
Subject: Import Issue
In-Reply-To: <1149230536.375190.12150@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149230536.375190.12150@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <200606021322.15743.maric@aristote.info>

Le Vendredi 02 Juin 2006 08:42, praveenkumar.117 at gmail.com a ?crit?:
> Hi all,
>            After doing import file i am updating that file. Later i am
> accessing a dictionary contained in that
>            file. Eventhough changes are reflected in the file... When i
> access a dictionary those changes are
>            not there. I believe that it is accessing from the object
> file that is created when i did import at
>            the start of the script. I will be kind enough if somebody
> suggest solution to this problem.

Read in the doc the reload builtin description to understand what happens.
But as Albert said before, don't do that !

-- 
_____________

Maric Michaud
_____________

Aristote - www.aristote.info
3 place des tapis
69004 Lyon
Tel: +33 426 880 097


From dongdonglove8 at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  2 09:58:07 2006
From: dongdonglove8 at hotmail.com (python)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 00:58:07 -0700
Subject: after del list , when I use it again,
	prompt 'not defined'.how could i delete its element, but not itself?
Message-ID: <1149235087.256704.309360@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

after del list , when I use it again, prompt 'not defined'.how could i
delete its element,but not itself?
except list.remove(val) ,are there  other ways to delete list 's
elements?

and , I wrote:

list1=[]
def method1():
     global list1
     list1=['a','b','c','d']
def method2():
     list2=list1
     list2.remove['a']
main():
    global list1
     method1()
     method2()
     print list1[0]

it  prints 'b'.


How could I keep the list1 not to change when remove list2's elements?



From bearophileHUGS at lycos.com  Fri Jun  2 10:19:15 2006
From: bearophileHUGS at lycos.com (bearophileHUGS at lycos.com)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 01:19:15 -0700
Subject: after del list , when I use it again,
	prompt 'not defined'.how could i delete its element, but not itself?
In-Reply-To: <1149235087.256704.309360@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149235087.256704.309360@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149236355.221540.136120@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

python wrote:
> after del list , when I use it again, prompt 'not defined'.how could i
> delete its element,but not itself?

This is a way:
>>> a = range(10)
>>> del a[:]
>>> a
[]
>>> a.append(20)
>>> a
[20]

Bye,
bearophile



From junkytownMAKNI at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 15:32:19 2006
From: junkytownMAKNI at gmail.com (SuperHik)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:32:19 +0200
Subject: after del list , when I use it again, prompt 'not defined'.how
	could i delete its element,but not itself?
In-Reply-To: <1149236355.221540.136120@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149235087.256704.309360@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<1149236355.221540.136120@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5pel3$3sr$1@ss408.t-com.hr>

bearophileHUGS at lycos.com wrote:
> python wrote:
>> after del list , when I use it again, prompt 'not defined'.how could i
>> delete its element,but not itself?
> 
> This is a way:
>>>> a = range(10)
>>>> del a[:]
or simply
a = []
>>>> a
> []

>>>> a.append(20)
>>>> a
> [20]
> 
> Bye,
> bearophile
> 


From piet at cs.uu.nl  Sat Jun  3 00:53:14 2006
From: piet at cs.uu.nl (Piet van Oostrum)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 00:53:14 +0200
Subject: after del list , when I use it again,
	prompt 'not defined'.how could i delete its element, but not itself?
References: <1149235087.256704.309360@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<1149236355.221540.136120@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<e5pel3$3sr$1@ss408.t-com.hr>
Message-ID: <m2u073186d.fsf@ordesa.lan>

>>>>> SuperHik <junkytownMAKNI at gmail.com> (S) escribi?:

>S> bearophileHUGS at lycos.com wrote:
>>> python wrote:
>>>> after del list , when I use it again, prompt 'not defined'.how could i
>>>> delete its element,but not itself?
>>> 
>>> This is a way:
>>>>>> a = range(10)
>>>>>> del a[:]
>S> or simply
>S> a = []
>>>>>> a
>>> []

Then you *have* deleted the list and created a new one, which is different
from keeping the list and deleting the elements:

>>> a = range(10)
>>> b = a
>>> del a[:]
>>> a
[]
>>> b
[]
>>> a.append(100)
>>> a
[100]
>>> b
[100]
>>> a=[]
>>> b
[100]
>>> 
-- 
Piet van Oostrum <piet at cs.uu.nl>
URL: http://www.cs.uu.nl/~piet [PGP 8DAE142BE17999C4]
Private email: piet at vanoostrum.org


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Sat Jun  3 19:08:30 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 19:08:30 +0200
Subject: after del list , when I use it again, prompt 'not defined'.how
	could i delete its element,but not itself?
In-Reply-To: <m2u073186d.fsf@ordesa.lan>
References: <1149235087.256704.309360@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<1149236355.221540.136120@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<e5pel3$3sr$1@ss408.t-com.hr> <m2u073186d.fsf@ordesa.lan>
Message-ID: <4481927b$0$12362$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

Piet van Oostrum a ?crit :
>>>>>>SuperHik <junkytownMAKNI at gmail.com> (S) escribi?:
> 
> 
>>S> bearophileHUGS at lycos.com wrote:
>>
>>>>python wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>after del list , when I use it again, prompt 'not defined'.how could i
>>>>>delete its element,but not itself?
>>>>
>>>>This is a way:
>>>>
>>>>>>>a = range(10)
>>>>>>>del a[:]
>>
>>S> or simply
>>S> a = []
>>
>>>>>>>a
>>>>
>>>>[]
> 
> 
> Then you *have* deleted the list

Not necessarily:

 >>> a = range(10)
 >>> b = a
 >>> id(a)
1078034316
 >>> id(b)
1078034316
 >>> a is b
True
 >>> a = []
 >>> b
[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]
 >>> id(a)
1078043724
 >>> id(b)
1078034316
 >>>

What as been deleted is the association ('binding') between the name 'a' 
and the list object at 1078034316. This object won't be suppressed until 
there are no more names bound to it.

> and created a new one, which is different
> from keeping the list and deleting the elements:

indeed !-)



From buzzard at urubu.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Jun  2 15:11:28 2006
From: buzzard at urubu.freeserve.co.uk (Duncan Smith)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 14:11:28 +0100
Subject: after del list , when I use it again, prompt 'not defined'.how
	could i delete its element,but not itself?
In-Reply-To: <1149235087.256704.309360@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149235087.256704.309360@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <44803b20.0@entanet>

python wrote:

[snip]

> 
> How could I keep the list1 not to change when remove list2's elements?
> 

You can't when the names list1 and list2 refer to the same list.  Try
making list2 a copy of list1,

list2 = list(list1)

Duncan


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Sat Jun  3 02:21:37 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 02:21:37 +0200
Subject: after del list , when I use it again, prompt 'not defined'.how
	could i delete its element,but not itself?
In-Reply-To: <1149235087.256704.309360@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149235087.256704.309360@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4480a683$0$935$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

python a ?crit :
> after del list , when I use it again, prompt 'not defined'.how could i
> delete its element,but not itself?
> except list.remove(val) ,are there  other ways to delete list 's
> elements?
> 
> and , I wrote:
> 
> list1=[]
> def method1():

Why naming a function "method" ?

>      global list1

globals are evil.

>      list1=['a','b','c','d']
> def method2():
>      list2=list1

this makes list2 point to the same object as list1.

>      list2.remove['a']
> main():
>     global list1
>      method1()
>      method2()
>      print list1[0]
> 
> it  prints 'b'.

Of course. Python's "variable" are really just names referencing 
objects. Making two names pointing to the same object does'nt make two 
different objects, just two references to one object.

> 
> How could I keep the list1 not to change when remove list2's elements?

Copy the list.




From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Sat Jun  3 02:26:03 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 02:26:03 +0200
Subject: after del list , when I use it again, prompt 'not defined'.how
	could i delete its element,but not itself?
In-Reply-To: <1149235087.256704.309360@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149235087.256704.309360@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4480a78d$0$3767$636a55ce@news.free.fr>

python a ?crit :
> after del list , when I use it again, prompt 'not defined'.how could i
> delete its element,but not itself?

FWIW, del don't delete an object (not directly at least), it just delete 
the name<->object association. If (and only if) it was the only name 
referencing that object, then the object will be disposed too.

 >>> list1 = [1, 2]
 >>> list2 = list1
 >>> id(list1)
1078043852
 >>> id(list2)
1078043852
 >>> del list2
 >>> list1
[1, 2]
 >>> list2
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
NameError: name 'list2' is not defined
 >>>


From feel.energetic at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 11:07:01 2006
From: feel.energetic at gmail.com (feel_energetic)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 02:07:01 -0700
Subject: how to define a static field of a given class
Message-ID: <1149239221.045268.6170@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

Hi,

    I already knew how to define a static method of a class( using
staticmethod() ),but I find there isn't a built-in func to build a
static field ( something like staticfield() )
    can anyone help me on this?
    thanks very much for your help :)



From maric at aristote.info  Fri Jun  2 11:26:13 2006
From: maric at aristote.info (Maric Michaud)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:26:13 +0200
Subject: how to define a static field of a given class
In-Reply-To: <1149239221.045268.6170@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149239221.045268.6170@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <200606021126.14068.maric@aristote.info>

Le Vendredi 02 Juin 2006 11:07, feel_energetic a ?crit?:
> Hi,
>
>     I already knew how to define a static method of a class( using
> staticmethod() ),but I find there isn't a built-in func to build a
> static field ( something like staticfield() )
>     can anyone help me on this?
>     thanks very much for your help :)
I guess you come from a c++ background, and what you mean by static field is a 
variable shared by all instance of the class, right ?

then,

class toto :
	VAL=5

but, you can't assign directly via instances of the class as it will override 
VAL in the instance :

In [2]: t=toto()

In [3]: t.VAL=4

In [4]: toto.VAL
Out[4]: 5

In [5]: t.__dict__
Out[5]: {'VAL': 4}

You must explicitly modify t.__class__.VAL or toto.VAL :

In [8]: t1, t2 = toto(), toto()

In [9]: t1.__class__.VAL = 4

In [10]: t2.VAL
Out[10]: 4


-- 
_____________

Maric Michaud
_____________

Aristote - www.aristote.info
3 place des tapis
69004 Lyon
Tel: +33 426 880 097


From rtw at freenet.co.uk  Fri Jun  2 11:28:25 2006
From: rtw at freenet.co.uk (Rob Williscroft)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 04:28:25 -0500
Subject: how to define a static field of a given class
References: <1149239221.045268.6170@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <Xns97D66AA53FAEBrtwfreenetREMOVEcouk@216.196.109.145>

feel_energetic wrote in news:1149239221.045268.6170
@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com in comp.lang.python:

> Hi,
> 
>     I already knew how to define a static method of a class( using
> staticmethod() ),but I find there isn't a built-in func to build a
> static field ( something like staticfield() )
>     can anyone help me on this?
>     thanks very much for your help :)
> 

What you possibly want is just a class attribute:

class MyClass( object ):
  static_field = 10
  
myInstance = MyClass()

print MyClass.static_field, myInstance.static_field

Rob.
-- 
http://www.victim-prime.dsl.pipex.com/


From onurb at xiludom.gro  Fri Jun  2 11:47:47 2006
From: onurb at xiludom.gro (bruno at modulix)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:47:47 +0200
Subject: how to define a static field of a given class
In-Reply-To: <1149239221.045268.6170@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149239221.045268.6170@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <448009b7$0$12763$636a55ce@news.free.fr>

feel_energetic wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>     I already knew how to define a static method of a class( using
> staticmethod() ),

FWIW, it's probably one of the most useless construct in Python IMHO.
classmethod are really much more useful to me.

> but I find there isn't a built-in func to build a
> static field ( something like staticfield() )

Please define "static field", I just don't understand what it could be.

Now if what you want is a class attribute (ie: an attribute that is
shared by all instances of a class), just declare it at the class level:

class MyClass(object):
  shared_attrib = 42

# can be accessed via the class
# or via an instance
MyClass.shared_attrib
m = MyClass()
m.shared_attrib

# but you don't want to rebind it via an instance
m.shared_attrib = 33
m.shared_attrib
MyClass.shared_attrib

# note that the problem is only with rebinding - mutating is ok
class MyOtherClass(object):
  shared_attrib = [42]
mo = MyOtherClass()
mo.shared_attrib

mo.shared_attrib.append(33)
mo.shared_attrib
MyOtherClass.shared_attrib

HTH
-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb at xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"


From maric at aristote.info  Fri Jun  2 12:19:09 2006
From: maric at aristote.info (Maric Michaud)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 12:19:09 +0200
Subject: how to define a static field of a given class
In-Reply-To: <448009b7$0$12763$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
References: <1149239221.045268.6170@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<448009b7$0$12763$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <200606021219.09548.maric@aristote.info>

Le Vendredi 02 Juin 2006 11:47, bruno at modulix a ?crit?:
> FWIW, it's probably one of the most useless construct in Python IMHO.
> classmethod are really much more useful to me.
+1

I do prefer classmethod, both for the name and behavior (everything should be 
intended for polymorphism, after all, classes are just instances of type).

-- 
_____________

Maric Michaud
_____________

Aristote - www.aristote.info
3 place des tapis
69004 Lyon
Tel: +33 426 880 097


From feel.energetic at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 12:21:07 2006
From: feel.energetic at gmail.com (feel_energetic)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 03:21:07 -0700
Subject: how to define a static field of a given class
In-Reply-To: <448009b7$0$12763$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
References: <1149239221.045268.6170@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<448009b7$0$12763$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <1149243667.724683.80090@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>


thanks for all of your replies

I did this before I posted the subject but got (NameError: global name
'startTime' is not defined)

the most important thing i didn't know is
"the static field should be referred with the qualifier ClassName"

it's a little different from C++ :)  (the static field can directly
referred without the ClassName)



From jonathan.wright at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 12:38:28 2006
From: jonathan.wright at gmail.com (Jon)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 03:38:28 -0700
Subject: import confused by contents of working directory
Message-ID: <1149244708.049852.153980@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

It appears that (windows) python searches in the current working
directory before looking in the local site-packages directory, or that
'.' comes first in sys.path? The problem arises when I made the mistake
of running a test program from the same directory where I built and
installed my package. Python uses the package from the current
directory, which misses the pyd files, instead of the site-packages
package which has them installed.

Would somebody please explain how to know what is going on when an
import statement is ambiguous? If the interpreter has several choices
about what to import then which one is chosen? I apologise if this is
FAQ, but it seems that if I say "import mymodule" and the interpreter
finds more than one option for mymodule it could raise an Exception
asking "which one do you want??" instead of silently picking up the
first thing it finds?

This would be perhaps a major change - but I expect "import" to go look
in the python installation and would look for a command like "load" to
go looking for specific filenames or find things that are hanging
around in the current working directory. Is there any plan for a
statement like:

"from future import PleaseDontJustGuessWhatToImport" ?

Thanks in advance for any useful advice, perhaps I am just missing the
out on the "right way to do it"? It is normal to remove '.' from
sys.path at the start of a script?

Jon

-------------------------------------
Some examples of my confusion are outlined below. I use Numeric only
because I assume they are doing a proper installation. I had thought
for a long time that I had this problem because I was screwing up with
distutils or .pth files etc etc.

c:\> mkdir import

c:\> cd import

c:\import> python -c "import Numeric; print 'OK!'"
OK!

c:\import> echo raise Exception("Not OK! Local py file") > Numeric.py

c:\import> python -c "import Numeric;print 'OK!'"
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<string>", line 1, in ?
  File "Numeric.py", line 1, in ?
    raise Exception("Not OK! Local py file")
Exception: Not OK! Local py file

c:\import> del Numeric.py

c:\import> mkdir Numeric

c:\import> python -c "import Numeric; print 'OK!'"
OK!

c:\import> echo raise Exception("Not OK! Local version") >
Numeric\__init__.py

c:\import> python -c "import Numeric;print 'OK!'"
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<string>", line 1, in ?
  File "Numeric\__init__.py", line 1, in ?
    raise Exception("Not OK! Local version")
Exception: Not OK! Local version

c:\import> del Numeric\__init__.py

c:\import>python -c "import Numeric;print 'OK!'"
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<string>", line 1, in ?
  File "c:\python24\lib\site-packages\PIL\__init__.py", line 1, in ?
    #
Exception: Not OK! Local version

[authors note] What??? This was imported from Numeric\__init__.pyc

c:\import> del Numeric\__init__.pyc

c:\import> python -c "import Numeric;print 'OK!'"
OK!

The the actual example is more like this:

c:\ImageD11> python setup.py build --compiler=mingw32 install
...
c:\ImageD11>c:\python24\scripts\ImageD11_gui.py
...
ImportError: can't import name closest

c:\ImageD11> cd ..

c:\> c:\python24\scripts\ImageD11_gui.py
...and the gui runs!! ...

Given that the script resides in $python\scripts I sort of expect it to
avoid tripping over some local and irrelevant file.



From fredrik at pythonware.com  Fri Jun  2 13:32:14 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 13:32:14 +0200
Subject: import confused by contents of working directory
References: <1149244708.049852.153980@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5p7ju$od6$1@sea.gmane.org>

"Jon" wrote:

> Would somebody please explain how to know what is going on when an
> import statement is ambiguous?

there is no ambiguity: python searches through a list of directories, in a given
order.

the list is stored in the sys.path list, which you can inspect and modify freely.

also see the section "The Module Search Path" in the Modules chapter in the
tutorial:

    http://pytut.infogami.com/node8.html

> If the interpreter has several choices about what to import then which one is
> chosen?

the first one on the path.

</F> 





From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Sat Jun  3 11:00:23 2006
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (greg)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 21:00:23 +1200
Subject: import confused by contents of working directory
In-Reply-To: <1149244708.049852.153980@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149244708.049852.153980@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4ed1cvF1e4gqbU1@individual.net>

Jon wrote:
> It appears that (windows) python searches in the current working
> directory before looking in the local site-packages directory, or that
> '.' comes first in sys.path?

Unless it behaves very differently on Windows from
everything else, this isn't quite true. The current
directory is only put in the path when using the
interpreter interactively. When you do

   python somefile.py

the directory containing somefile.py is put at the
beginning of sys.path, not the current directory.
So you'd still have the same problem even if you
weren't cd'ed to the directory containing the test
program.

The moral is not to put your test program in the
same directory as your package files. (Or if you
must, have it delete sys.path[0] before importing
anything.)

--
Greg


From stefan.behnel-n05pAM at web.de  Fri Jun  2 12:53:29 2006
From: stefan.behnel-n05pAM at web.de (Stefan Behnel)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:53:29 +0200
Subject: [ANN] lxml 1.0 released
Message-ID: <mailman.6461.1149258254.27775.python-announce-list@python.org>

Hallo everyone,

I have the honour to announce the availability of lxml 1.0.

http://codespeak.net/lxml/

It's downloadable from cheeseshop:
http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/lxml

"""
lxml is a Pythonic binding for the libxml2 and libxslt libraries. It provides
safe and convenient access to these libraries using the ElementTree API. It
extends the ElementTree API significantly to offer support for XPath, RelaxNG,
XML Schema, XSLT, C14N and much, much more.

Its goals are:

    * Pythonic API.
    * Documented.
      http://codespeak.net/lxml/#documentation
    * FAST!
      http://codespeak.net/lxml/performance.html
    * Use Python unicode strings in API.
    * Safe (no segfaults).
    * No manual memory management!
      (as opposed to the official libxml2 Python bindings)
"""

While the list of features added since the last beta version (1.0.beta) is
rather small, this version contains a large number of bug fixes found by
various users and testers. Thank you all for your help!

Stefan


Features added since 0.9.2:

    * Element.getiterator() and the findall() methods support finding
      arbitrary elements from a namespace (pattern {namespace}*)
    * Another speedup in tree iteration code
    * General speedup of Python Element object creation and deallocation
    * Writing C14N no longer serializes in memory (reduced memory footprint)
    * PyErrorLog for error logging through the Python logging module
    * element.getroottree() returns an ElementTree for the root node of the
      document that contains the element.
    * ElementTree.getpath(element) returns a simple, absolute XPath expression
      to find the element in the tree structure
    * Error logs have a last_error attribute for convenience
    * Comment texts can be changed through the API
    * Formatted output via pretty_print keyword to serialization functions
    * XSLT can block access to file system and network via XSLTAccessControl
    * ElementTree.write() no longer serializes in memory (reduced memory
      footprint)
    * Speedup of Element.findall(tag) and Element.getiterator(tag)
    * Support for writing the XML representation of Elements and ElementTrees
      to Python unicode strings via etree.tounicode()
    * Support for writing XSLT results to Python unicode strings via unicode()
    * Parsing a unicode string no longer copies the string (reduced memory
      footprint)
    * Parsing file-like objects now reads chunks rather than the whole file
      (reduced memory footprint)
    * Parsing StringIO objects from the start avoids copying the string
      (reduced memory footprint)
    * Read-only 'docinfo' attribute in ElementTree class holds DOCTYPE
      information, original encoding and XML version as seen by the parser
    * etree module can be compiled without libxslt by commenting out the line
      include "xslt.pxi" near the end of the etree.pyx source file
    * Better error messages in parser exceptions
    * Error reporting now also works in XSLT
    * Support for custom document loaders (URI resolvers) in parsers and XSLT,
      resolvers are registered at parser level
    * Implementation of exslt:regexp for XSLT based on the Python 're' module,
      enabled by default, can be switched off with 'regexp=False' keyword
      argument
    * Support for exslt extensions (libexslt) and libxslt extra functions
      (node-set, document, write, output)
    * Substantial speedup in XPath.evaluate()
    * HTMLParser for parsing (broken) HTML
    * XMLDTDID function parses XML into tuple (root node, ID dict) based on
      xml:id implementation of libxml2 (as opposed to ET compatible XMLID)


Bugs fixed since 0.9.2:

    * Memory leak in Element.__setitem__
    * Memory leak in Element.attrib.items() and Element.attrib.values()
    * Memory leak in XPath extension functions
    * Memory leak in unicode related setup code
    * Element now raises ValueError on empty tag names
    * Namespace fixing after moving elements between documents could fail if
      the source document was freed too early
    * Setting namespace-less tag names on namespaced elements ('{ns}t' -> 't')
      didn't reset the namespace
    * Unknown constants from newer libxml2 versions could raise exceptions in
      the error handlers
    * lxml.etree compiles much faster
    * On libxml2 <= 2.6.22, parsing strings with encoding declaration could
      fail in certain cases
    * Document reference in ElementTree objects was not updated when the root
      element was moved to a different document
    * Running absolute XPath expressions on an Element now evaluates against
      the root tree
    * Evaluating absolute XPath expressions (/*) on an ElementTree could fail
    * Crashes when calling XSLT, RelaxNG, etc. with uninitialized ElementTree
      objects
    * Memory leak when using iconv encoders in tostring/write
    * Deep copying Elements and ElementTrees maintains the document
      information
    * Serialization functions raise LookupError for unknown encodings
    * Memory deallocation crash resulting from deep copying elements
    * Some ElementTree methods could crash if the root node was not
      initialized (neither file nor element passed to the constructor)
    * Element/SubElement failed to set attribute namespaces from passed attrib
      dictionary
    * tostring() now adds an XML declaration for non-ASCII encodings
    * tostring() failed to serialize encodings that contain 0-bytes
    * ElementTree.xpath() and XPathDocumentEvaluator were not using the
      ElementTree root node as reference point
    * Calling document('') in XSLT failed to return the stylesheet


From kent at kentsjohnson.com  Sat Jun  3 03:54:38 2006
From: kent at kentsjohnson.com (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:54:38 -0400
Subject: [ANN] lxml 1.0 released
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6461.1149258254.27775.python-announce-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6461.1149258254.27775.python-announce-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4480eade$1_2@newspeer2.tds.net>

Stefan Behnel wrote:
> Hallo everyone,
> 
> I have the honour to announce the availability of lxml 1.0.
> 
> http://codespeak.net/lxml/
> 
> It's downloadable from cheeseshop:
> http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/lxml

Are there any plans to offer a Windows installer?

Thanks,
Kent


From stefan.behnel-n05pAM at web.de  Sat Jun  3 14:32:55 2006
From: stefan.behnel-n05pAM at web.de (Stefan Behnel)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:32:55 +0200
Subject: [ANN] lxml 1.0 released
In-Reply-To: <4480eade$1_2@newspeer2.tds.net>
References: <mailman.6461.1149258254.27775.python-announce-list@python.org>
	<4480eade$1_2@newspeer2.tds.net>
Message-ID: <4481817a$0$11078$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net>

Kent Johnson wrote:
> Stefan Behnel wrote:
>> Hallo everyone,
>>
>> I have the honour to announce the availability of lxml 1.0.
>>
>> http://codespeak.net/lxml/
>>
>> It's downloadable from cheeseshop:
>> http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/lxml
> 
> Are there any plans to offer a Windows installer?

Already there. :)

It just takes a minute longer sometimes, but Windows users are not forgotten.

Stefan


From antroy at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 13:08:03 2006
From: antroy at gmail.com (Ant)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 04:08:03 -0700
Subject: Selection in Tkinter Text widget.
Message-ID: <1149246483.809582.8310@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Hi all,

I have been trying to select text in a Text widget programmatically. I
have been trying the following minimal example:
#=================================
from Tkinter import *

def showgui():
    win = Tk()

    area = Text(win, width = 50, height = 20)
    area.pack()

    new = """Lots of text here
    and here
    and here..."""
    area.insert("1.0", new)

    area.tag_add(SEL, "1.0", END)

    win.mainloop()

if __name__ == "__main__":
    showgui()
#==================================

The area.tag_add(...) line should - from what I have read in Frederik's
Intro to Tkinter guide - select all of the text in the text area. It
doesn't however...

Does anyone have any idea how to get this to work? Or tell me what I am
doing wrong.

Cheers,

-- 
Ant...



From fredrik at pythonware.com  Fri Jun  2 14:17:48 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 14:17:48 +0200
Subject: Selection in Tkinter Text widget.
References: <1149246483.809582.8310@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5pa9c$376$1@sea.gmane.org>

"Ant" <antroy at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have been trying to select text in a Text widget programmatically. I
> have been trying the following minimal example:
> #=================================
> from Tkinter import *
>
> def showgui():
>    win = Tk()
>
>    area = Text(win, width = 50, height = 20)
>    area.pack()
>
>    new = """Lots of text here
>    and here
>    and here..."""
>    area.insert("1.0", new)
>
>    area.tag_add(SEL, "1.0", END)

    area.focus_set()

>    win.mainloop()
>
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>    showgui()
> #==================================
>
> The area.tag_add(...) line should - from what I have read in Frederik's
> Intro to Tkinter guide - select all of the text in the text area. It
> doesn't however...

it does, but by default, the selection is only shown for widgets that has the key-
board focus.  if you add an explicit focus_set() call, you'll see the selection.

</F> 





From antroy at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 14:37:39 2006
From: antroy at gmail.com (Ant)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 05:37:39 -0700
Subject: Selection in Tkinter Text widget.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6454.1149250687.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <1149246483.809582.8310@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6454.1149250687.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149251859.630518.248760@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Fredrik Lundh wrote:
...
> it does, but by default, the selection is only shown for widgets that has the key-
> board focus.  if you add an explicit focus_set() call, you'll see the selection.
>
> </F>

Perfect! Thanks Fredrik.

Strange behaviour though (IMHO), that the selection is only shown if
the widget has focus. I just tried adding another component to the
test, and switching from widget to widget does indeed stop the
selection showing!

Cheers,

-- 
Ant...



From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Sat Jun  3 11:05:31 2006
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (greg)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 21:05:31 +1200
Subject: Selection in Tkinter Text widget.
In-Reply-To: <1149251859.630518.248760@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149246483.809582.8310@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6454.1149250687.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149251859.630518.248760@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4ed1mjF1eao0mU1@individual.net>

Ant wrote:

> Strange behaviour though (IMHO), that the selection is only shown if
> the widget has focus.

It's only strange if you're used to certain platforms.
This is normal behaviour in the Macintosh world. One
of the original Apple UI Guidelines was that there
should only be one selection visible at a time, so
that it's always clear what you're operating on.

(They seem to be breaking that now in MacOSX, which
I think is a backward step...)

--
Greg


From florencio.cano at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 15:21:20 2006
From: florencio.cano at gmail.com (Florencio Cano)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:21:20 +0200
Subject: Which exceptions are recommended to me handled?
Message-ID: <c496e0a70606020621u56c2a2c5jd76fb0ba7d312e1c@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
Is it recommended as a good programming practice to catch all exceptions and
raise our own exceptions or let Python itself raise these kinds of
exceptions?
For example imagine a function that needs an integer and '34' is passed,
this is ok because inside the function it uses int(variable) but if a
'hello' is passed it will raise a ValueError exception.
Is it better to handle this exception or let Python raise directly
ValueError and stop execution or what is recommended?
Thanks
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From tdelaney at avaya.com  Mon Jun  5 00:35:39 2006
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy (Tim))
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 08:35:39 +1000
Subject: Which exceptions are recommended to me handled?
Message-ID: <2773CAC687FD5F4689F526998C7E4E5FF1E74B@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Florencio Cano wrote:

> Hello,
> Is it recommended as a good programming practice to catch all
> exceptions and raise our own exceptions or let Python itself raise
> these kinds of exceptions?  
> For example imagine a function that needs an integer and '34' is
> passed, this is ok because inside the function it uses int(variable)
> but if a 'hello' is passed it will raise a ValueError exception. Is
> it better to handle this exception or let Python raise directly
> ValueError and stop execution or what is recommended?   

If you can validly handle the exception, do so. Otherwise, let it
propagate. Valid handling could be (for example) logging the error and
using a default value.

Note that it's a particularly bad idea to just replace one exception
with another exception (not suggesting that that is what you intended -
just something I've seen a lot ;)

    try:
        int(val)
    except ValueError:
        raise MyValueError('Bad value: ' + val)

The most important problem here is that you've lost the stack trace from
the original exception. The next most important is that anything else
that believes it can handle a ValueError now won't be able to.

Tim Delaney


From fredrik at pythonware.com  Mon Jun  5 12:53:39 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:53:39 +0200
Subject: Which exceptions are recommended to me handled?
In-Reply-To: <2773CAC687FD5F4689F526998C7E4E5FF1E74B@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>
References: <2773CAC687FD5F4689F526998C7E4E5FF1E74B@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>
Message-ID: <e612fj$b00$1@sea.gmane.org>

Delaney, Timothy (Tim) wrote:

> Note that it's a particularly bad idea to just replace one exception
> with another exception (not suggesting that that is what you intended -
> just something I've seen a lot ;)
> 
>     try:
>         int(val)
>     except ValueError:
>         raise MyValueError('Bad value: ' + val)
> 
> The most important problem here is that you've lost the stack trace from
> the original exception.

which, in many cases, is a good thing, especially if you replace "int" 
with a call to some low-level support library.  if I call API "foo" to 
open a data file of some kind, I'm not necessarily interested in an 
"unsubscriptable error" exception on line 129 in barpath.py, nor is it 
helping me figure out what's wrong in my program.

or do you expose internal implementation details to your end users too, 
to make sure they don't lose any information?

</F>



From tdelaney at avaya.com  Mon Jun  5 23:29:28 2006
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy (Tim))
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:29:28 +1000
Subject: Which exceptions are recommended to me handled?
Message-ID: <2773CAC687FD5F4689F526998C7E4E5F074383@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Fredrik Lundh wrote:

> Delaney, Timothy (Tim) wrote:
> 
>> The most important problem here is that you've lost the stack trace
from
>> the original exception.
>
> which, in many cases, is a good thing, especially if you replace "int"
> with a call to some low-level support library.  if I call API "foo" to
> open a data file of some kind, I'm not necessarily interested in an
> "unsubscriptable error" exception on line 129 in barpath.py, nor is it
> helping me figure out what's wrong in my program.

I always prefer to have the stack trace, since it *is* useful to me to
figure out what is wrong with my program (or possibly, the library I'm
using).

> or do you expose internal implementation details to your end users
> too, to make sure they don't lose any information?

No - but I do log any errors, with stack traces, and as much useful data
as possible. That way it's more likely that I can get a useful bug
report (they send the log file).

Replacing an exception *may* not get in the way if you're wrapping a
single statement in the exception. I can't think of another case where
it would not get in the way. Chained exceptions change this somewhat,
because you don't lose the original information.

Tim Delaney


From brochu121 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 15:29:19 2006
From: brochu121 at gmail.com (david brochu jr)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:29:19 -0400
Subject: Tkinter
Message-ID: <9583ed900606020629n6b54b522j117b521ca7ac616e@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone know how to get the value of the file selected when using
tk_getOpenFile in Tkinter?
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From fredrik at pythonware.com  Fri Jun  2 15:54:07 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:54:07 +0200
Subject: Tkinter
References: <9583ed900606020629n6b54b522j117b521ca7ac616e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e5pftv$qj0$1@sea.gmane.org>

"david brochu jr" wrote:

> Does anyone know how to get the value of the file selected when using
> tk_getOpenFile in Tkinter?

why not use the tkFileDialog module:

    http://www.pythonware.com/library/tkinter/introduction/x1164-data-entry.htm

?

</F> 





From bussieremaillist at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 16:57:30 2006
From: bussieremaillist at gmail.com (bussiere maillist)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:57:30 +0200
Subject: gadfly error gadfly instance has no attribute 'execute'
Message-ID: <8a8f62c80606020757g328bb37dlbdbf3d63bf379e69@mail.gmail.com>

here is the error i've get :

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "D:\Programmation\pitney\pitney.py", line 13, in ?
    connection.execute('create table personne(nom varchar)')
AttributeError: gadfly instance has no attribute 'execute'

i'am under windows and i still haven't found the error

here is my code :

import csv,gadfly,fileinput,glob, string, sys, os,unicodedata

print "que voulez vous faire ?\n"


fichA=raw_input("Entrez le nom du fichier a importer : ")
cr = csv.reader(open(fichA),delimiter=";")
connection = gadfly.gadfly()
connection.startup('pitney','D:\Programmation\pitney\')
cursor = connection.cursor()
connection.execute('create table personne(nom varchar)')
cursor.execute("insert into personne(nom) values('bussiere')")
connection.commit()
cursor.execute('select * from personne')
print cursor.fetchall()
compteur = 0
for row in  cr:
    print row[0],row[1]
compteur += 1

print "Dead Parrot"



regards Bussiere
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From brian at sweetapp.com  Fri Jun  2 17:54:59 2006
From: brian at sweetapp.com (Brian Quinlan)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:54:59 +0200
Subject: Sampling a population
Message-ID: <44805F53.6090409@sweetapp.com>

This is less a Python question and more a optimization/probability 
question. Imaging that you have a list of objects and there frequency in 
a population e.g.

lst = [(a, 0.01), (b, 0.05), (c, 0.50), (d, 0.30), (e, 0.04), (f, 0.10)]

and you want to drawn n items from that list (duplicates allowed), with 
that probability distribution.

The fastest algorithm that I have been able to devise for doing so is: 
O(n * log(len(lst))). Can anyone think or a solution with a better time 
complexity? If not, is there an obviously better way to do this 
(assuming n is big and the list size is small).

Here is the code:

from random import random
from bisect import bisect

def draw(n, lst):
     ps = []
     last = 0
     for p in lst:
         ps.append(last + p)
         last += p

     # ps = [0.01, 0.06, 0.56, 0.86, 0.90, 1.00]

     chosen = [0] * len(lst) # track frequency
     for i in range(n):
         r = random()

         chosen[bisect(ps, r)] += 1 # binary search and increment

     result = [] # rescale probability based on frequency
     for c in chosen:
         result.append(float(c) / n)
     return result

lst = [0.01, 0.05, 0.50, 0.30, 0.04, 0.10]
print draw(10000, lst)



From buzzard at urubu.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Jun  2 19:19:32 2006
From: buzzard at urubu.freeserve.co.uk (Duncan Smith)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:19:32 +0100
Subject: Sampling a population
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6464.1149263698.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6464.1149263698.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <44807544.0@entanet>

Brian Quinlan wrote:
> This is less a Python question and more a optimization/probability
> question. Imaging that you have a list of objects and there frequency in
> a population e.g.
> 
> lst = [(a, 0.01), (b, 0.05), (c, 0.50), (d, 0.30), (e, 0.04), (f, 0.10)]
> 
> and you want to drawn n items from that list (duplicates allowed), with
> that probability distribution.
> 
> The fastest algorithm that I have been able to devise for doing so is:
> O(n * log(len(lst))). Can anyone think or a solution with a better time
> complexity? If not, is there an obviously better way to do this
> (assuming n is big and the list size is small).
> 
> Here is the code:
> 
> from random import random
> from bisect import bisect
> 
> def draw(n, lst):
>     ps = []
>     last = 0
>     for p in lst:
>         ps.append(last + p)
>         last += p
> 
>     # ps = [0.01, 0.06, 0.56, 0.86, 0.90, 1.00]
> 
>     chosen = [0] * len(lst) # track frequency
>     for i in range(n):
>         r = random()
> 
>         chosen[bisect(ps, r)] += 1 # binary search and increment
> 
>     result = [] # rescale probability based on frequency
>     for c in chosen:
>         result.append(float(c) / n)
>     return result
> 
> lst = [0.01, 0.05, 0.50, 0.30, 0.04, 0.10]
> print draw(10000, lst)
> 

I would do something like the following (maybe with an additional check
that the probabilities do not sum to less than 1),

>>> from random import random
>>> import operator
>>> def draw(n, lst):
	lst.sort(key=operator.itemgetter(1), reverse=True)
	cumprobs = []
	this_cp = 0
	for p in lst:
		this_cp += p[1]
		cumprobs.append(this_cp)
	for _ in xrange(n):
		rnd = random()
		for i, cumprob in enumerate(cumprobs):
			if rnd < cumprob:
				yield lst[i][0]
				break

			
>>> lst = [('a', 0.01), ('b', 0.05), ('c', 0.50), ('d', 0.30), ('e',
0.04), ('f', 0.10)]
>>> list(draw(8, lst))
['d', 'd', 'c', 'e', 'c', 'd', 'c', 'f']
>>>

The sorting of the list means that iterating over the cumulative
probabilities is minimised (for your density function the inner loop
will be broken out of after the first iteration 50% of the time).  (I've
assumed that it doesn't matter to you that the list is sorted.)  I'm not
sure that this is in any way optimal.

Duncan


From nun at example.com  Fri Jun  2 20:58:29 2006
From: nun at example.com (Mitja Trampus)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:58:29 +0200
Subject: Sampling a population
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6464.1149263698.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6464.1149263698.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rT%fg.3461$oj5.1116923@news.siol.net>

Brian Quinlan wrote:
> The fastest algorithm that I have been able to devise for doing so is: 
> O(n * log(len(lst))). Can anyone think or a solution with a better time 
> complexity? If not, is there an obviously better way to do this 
> (assuming n is big and the list size is small).


If list is indeed short, I'd say common sense speaks against complicating and optimizing 
further - you can only get log(len(lst))-fold speedup, which is in your case more or less 
a small constant. _IF_ this part of code later turns out to be a bottleneck, you might 
profit more by porting it to C than searching for an O(n) solution, if it even exists.


From paddy3118 at netscape.net  Fri Jun  2 21:09:54 2006
From: paddy3118 at netscape.net (Paddy)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 12:09:54 -0700
Subject: Sampling a population
References: <mailman.6464.1149263698.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149275394.499808.31460@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Brian Quinlan wrote:
> This is less a Python question and more a optimization/probability
> question. Imaging that you have a list of objects and there frequency in
> a population e.g.
>
> lst = [(a, 0.01), (b, 0.05), (c, 0.50), (d, 0.30), (e, 0.04), (f, 0.10)]
>
> and you want to drawn n items from that list (duplicates allowed), with
> that probability distribution.
>
> The fastest algorithm that I have been able to devise for doing so is:
> O(n * log(len(lst))). Can anyone think or a solution with a better time
> complexity? If not, is there an obviously better way to do this
> (assuming n is big and the list size is small).
>

Any way I tried to slice and dice it, I could not get any faster.
draw2 and draw 3 generate code on the fly. draw4 sneakily tries to
trade memory and accuracy for speed but is even slower!

First the times, then the code:

$ ./timeit.py 'from probDistribution import draw as draw; draw(10000,
[0.01, 0.05, 0.50, 0.30, 0.04, 0.10])'
100 loops, best of 3: 13.4 msec per loop

$ ./timeit.py 'from probDistribution import draw2 as draw; draw(10000,
[0.01, 0.05, 0.50, 0.30, 0.04, 0.10])'
100 loops, best of 3: 15.2 msec per loop

$ ./timeit.py 'from probDistribution import draw3 as draw; draw(10000,
[0.01, 0.05, 0.50, 0.30, 0.04, 0.10])'
100 loops, best of 3: 16.2 msec per loop

$ ./timeit.py 'from probDistribution import draw4 as draw; draw(10000,
[0.01, 0.05, 0.50, 0.30, 0.04, 0.10])'
10 loops, best of 3: 30.5 msec per loop


=== CODE probDistribution.py ===
from random import random, randrange
from bisect import bisect

def draw(n, lst):
     ps = []
     last = 0
     for p in lst:
         ps.append(last + p)
         last += p

     # ps = [0.01, 0.06, 0.56, 0.86, 0.90, 1.00]

     chosen = [0] * len(lst) # track frequency
     for i in range(n):
         r = random()

         chosen[bisect(ps, r)] += 1 # binary search and increment

     result = [] # rescale probability based on frequency
     for c in chosen:
         result.append(float(c) / n)
     return result


def draw2(n, lst):
    """ uses dynamicc code generation of this form:
chosen = [0] * 6
for i in xrange(10000):
    r = random()
    if r < 0.01: chosen[0]+=1
    elif r < 0.06: chosen[1] +=1
    ...
    elif r < 0.90: chosen[4] +=1
    else chosen[5]+=1
    """
    assert len(lst)>1, "Corner case NOT covered"

    codestr = 'chosen = [0] * %i\n' % (len(lst),)
    codestr += 'for i in xrange(%i):\n  r = random()\n' % (n,)

    last = 0.0
    lstmax = len(lst)-1
    for i,p in enumerate(lst):
        last += p
        if i==0:        codestr += '  if r < %g: chosen[%i] +=1\n' %
(last, i)
        elif i==lstmax: codestr += '  else: chosen[%i] +=1\n' % (i,)
        else:           codestr += '  elif r < %g: chosen[%i] +=1\n' %
(last, i)

    exec codestr

    result = [] # rescale probability based on frequency
    for c in chosen:
        result.append(float(c) / n)
    return result


def draw3(n, lst):
    """ uses dynamicc code generation of this form:
chosen = [0] * 6
for i in xrange(10000):
    r = random()
    chosen[-1+ (
      ((r<0.01) and 1)
      or ((r<0.06) and 2)
      ...
      or ((r<0.90) and 5)
      or 6
      )] +=1

    """
    assert len(lst)>1, "Corner case NOT covered"

    codestr = 'chosen = [0] * %i\n' % (len(lst),)
    codestr += 'for i in xrange(%i):\n  r = random()\n' % (n,)
    codestr += '  chosen[-1+ (\n'

    last = 0.0
    lstmax = len(lst)-1
    for i,p in enumerate(lst):
        last += p
        if i==0:        codestr += '    ((r<%g) and 1)\n' % (last)
        elif i==lstmax: codestr += '    or %i\n    )] +=1\n' % (i+1,)
        else:           codestr += '    or ((r<%g) and %i)\n' % (last,
i+1)
    #return codestr
    exec codestr

    result = [] # rescale probability based on frequency
    for c in chosen:
        result.append(float(c) / n)
    return result


def draw4(n, lst, precision = 0.01, maxbins=10000):
    """ Memory/speed tradeoff by coarse quantizing of frequency values.

    """
    assert len(lst)>1, "Corner case NOT covered"
    assert 0.0 < precision < 1.0 and (1.0/precision) < maxbins

    binmax = int(1.0/precision)
    chosenbin = [0] * binmax
    for i in xrange(n):
        chosenbin[randrange(binmax)] +=1

    left, right = 0, 0  # extract bin range for summation
    chosen = [0] * len(lst)
    last = 0.0
    for i,p in enumerate(lst):
        last += p
        right = int(last/precision)
        chosen[i] = sum( chosenbin[left:right] )
        left = right

    result = [] # rescale probability based on frequency
    for c in chosen:
        result.append(float(c) / n)
    return result

=== END CODE ===



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Jun  2 21:22:00 2006
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:22:00 -0400
Subject: Sampling a population
References: <mailman.6464.1149263698.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149275394.499808.31460@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5q34o$3t6$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Paddy" <paddy3118 at netscape.net> wrote in message 
news:1149275394.499808.31460 at i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Brian Quinlan wrote:
>> This is less a Python question and more a optimization/probability
>> question. Imaging that you have a list of objects and there frequency in
>> a population e.g.
>>
>> lst = [(a, 0.01), (b, 0.05), (c, 0.50), (d, 0.30), (e, 0.04), (f, 0.10)]
>>
>> and you want to drawn n items from that list (duplicates allowed), with
>> that probability distribution.

For a set of probabilities that uneven, you *might* do better to sort high 
to low and do a linear search.  Or check the two common cases and then do a 
binary search on the rest.

tjr





From roger.miller at nova-sol.com  Fri Jun  2 22:51:41 2006
From: roger.miller at nova-sol.com (Roger Miller)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 13:51:41 -0700
Subject: Sampling a population
References: <mailman.6464.1149263698.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149281501.117141.304060@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>

For your example, since the probabilities are all multiples of 0.01 you
could make a list of 100 elements.  Set one of them to a, 5 of them to
b, 50 of them to c, etc. Then just randomly sample from the table
(which is O(1)). Of course if the probabilities can be arbitrary
floating point values then this won't work. But if you can live with
rounding to 3 or 4 digits this is probably the fastest and easiest
approach.



From robert.kern at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 22:03:16 2006
From: robert.kern at gmail.com (Robert Kern)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:03:16 -0500
Subject: Sampling a population
In-Reply-To: <44805F53.6090409@sweetapp.com>
References: <44805F53.6090409@sweetapp.com>
Message-ID: <e5q5i3$c8p$1@sea.gmane.org>

Brian Quinlan wrote:
> The fastest algorithm that I have been able to devise for doing so is: 
> O(n * log(len(lst))). Can anyone think or a solution with a better time 
> complexity? If not, is there an obviously better way to do this 
> (assuming n is big and the list size is small).

numpy.searchsorted() can do all of the n lookups in C.

# Untested.

import numpy as np

def draw(n, lst):
    ps = np.cumsum([0.0] + [x[1] for x in lst])
    # watch for floating point errors here. It's likely that the last
    # item won't be quite 1.0

    r = np.random.random(n)  # n psuedorandom numbers uniform on [0, 1)
    indices = np.searchsorted(ps, r)

    # now do what you like with indices, which is an array of indices into
    # lst.

Ed Schofield has an implementation of an algorithm by Marsaglia[1] which turns
sampling into a fast table lookup. If your probabilities have limited precision
(2**-30 or so rather than the full double precision 2**-52 or so), then this
might be an attractive option.

[1]  http://www.jstatsoft.org/v11/i03/v11i03.pdf

The implementation is in the scipy sandbox currently, but I don't think it
builds painlessly at the moment.

  http://svn.scipy.org/svn/scipy/trunk/Lib/sandbox/montecarlo/

Ask on one of the scipy mailing lists if you need help building it.

  http://www.scipy.org/Mailing_Lists

-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
 that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
 an underlying truth."
  -- Umberto Eco



From brian at sweetapp.com  Sat Jun  3 08:11:44 2006
From: brian at sweetapp.com (Brian Quinlan)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 08:11:44 +0200
Subject: Sampling a population
In-Reply-To: <e5q5i3$c8p$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <44805F53.6090409@sweetapp.com> <e5q5i3$c8p$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <44812820.8080205@sweetapp.com>

Robert Kern wrote:
 > [numpy implementation snipped]

> Ed Schofield has an implementation of an algorithm by Marsaglia[1] which turns
> sampling into a fast table lookup. If your probabilities have limited precision
> (2**-30 or so rather than the full double precision 2**-52 or so), then this
> might be an attractive option.
> 
> [1]  http://www.jstatsoft.org/v11/i03/v11i03.pdf
> 

Thanks a lot for the numpy implementation and for the literature 
reference! I'll try to figure out how little precision I need in my 
sampling.

Cheers,
Brian


From matth at gmx.net  Fri Jun  2 18:08:21 2006
From: matth at gmx.net (Matthieu Pichaud)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 18:08:21 +0200
Subject: Package 
Message-ID: <c4bc9611e4b19804f1228e98b61ce4c8@gmx.net>

I have a problem organizing my programs in packages and subpackages.

I use python.2.3.3
I built a test structure to try to understand how it worked:

/test
/test/__init__.py	(containing: __all__=['test1'])
/test/test1/
/test/test1/__init__.py	(containing: __all__=['test2'])
/test/test1/test2/
/test/test1/test2/__init__.py	(containing: __all__=['test3'])
/test/test1/test2/test3.py	(containing: print 'test3')

Then I run:
 >>> from test import *
 >>> test1
<module 'test.test1' from 'test/test1/__init__.py'>
 >>> test2
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
NameError: name 'test2' is not defined


So it seems that I am very limited in the number of subpackages I can 
create.
Is it normal? Am I silly organizing my programs like that?

Thanks for your help!

Matth







From onurb at xiludom.gro  Fri Jun  2 19:11:24 2006
From: onurb at xiludom.gro (bruno at modulix)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:11:24 +0200
Subject: Package 
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6465.1149264261.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6465.1149264261.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <448071b0$0$11225$636a55ce@news.free.fr>

Matthieu Pichaud wrote:
> I have a problem organizing my programs in packages and subpackages.
> 
> I use python.2.3.3
> I built a test structure to try to understand how it worked:
> 
> /test
> /test/__init__.py    (containing: __all__=['test1'])
> /test/test1/
> /test/test1/__init__.py    (containing: __all__=['test2'])
> /test/test1/test2/
> /test/test1/test2/__init__.py    (containing: __all__=['test3'])
> /test/test1/test2/test3.py    (containing: print 'test3')
> 
> Then I run:
>>>> from test import *
>>>> test1
> <module 'test.test1' from 'test/test1/__init__.py'>
>>>> test2
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
> NameError: name 'test2' is not defined


> So it seems that I am very limited in the number of subpackages I can
> create.

Not at all.

> Is it normal?

Yes : when you have nested namespaces, it won't magically become a flat
namespace. There's a mostly clear documention on this in the official
Python tutorial.

> Am I silly organizing my programs like that?

Dunno - it depends on the program. But still:
python -c "import this" | grep nested

HTH
-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb at xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"


From maxerickson at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 19:19:03 2006
From: maxerickson at gmail.com (Max Erickson)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:19:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Package
References: <c4bc9611e4b19804f1228e98b61ce4c8@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <Xns97D6876B231BAmaxericksongmailcom@80.91.229.5>

I'm no expert, but your post made me curious. It appears that __all__ 
has the effect of ensuring that 

from test import *

picks up test1, but doesn't go any further than that. 

from test.test1.test2 import * 

should cause test3 to be imported.

max



From dannycolligan at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 18:58:36 2006
From: dannycolligan at gmail.com (dannycolligan at gmail.com)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 09:58:36 -0700
Subject: os.chdir doesn't accept variables sometimes
Message-ID: <1149267516.348440.60290@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>

I have a strange problem with os.chdir... here is my script that I am
using to edit the filenames of my music library:

#!/usr/bin/python

from os import *

chdir("/home/chainlynx/Desktop/Music")
for artist in listdir(getcwd()):
        print "===ARTIST: "+artist
        chdir(artist)
        for album in listdir(getcwd()):
                print "---ALBUM: "+album
                print "CWD: " + getcwd()
                chdir(album)                       ######ERROR ON THIS
LINE
                for string in listdir(album):
                        print "-SONG "+ string
                        if string[-3:] == "mp3":
                            print "CONVERTING "+string+" to
"+string[:string.index(".")]+".mp3"
#                            string = string[:string.index(".")]+".mp3"

The dummy file structure that I set up to run this:

chainlynx at cronus:~/Desktop/Music$ find .
.
./AAAAA
./AAAAA/Album1
./AAAAA/Album2
./AAAAA/Album3
./AAAAA/Album3/song1.m4a.x.mp3
./BBBBB
./CCCCC
./CCCCC/Albummmmm
./CCCCC/Albummmmm/asdfasdf.ogg
./CCCCC/Albummmmm/blah.m4a.wav.mp3
./CCCCC/Albummmmm/good.mp3

The error I get:

chainlynx at cronus:~/workspace/PyTest/src/pypack$ python __init__.py
===ARTIST: AAAAA
---ALBUM: Album1
CWD: /home/chainlynx/Desktop/Music/AAAAA
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/home/chainlynx/workspace/PyTest/src/pypack/__init__.py", line
12, in ?
    for string in listdir(album):
OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'Album1'

Does anyone know why this is choking?  Clearly, because of the second
chdir(), chdir() can accept variables like this... what am I doing
wrong?

Thanks in advance,

Danny

P.S. Bonus points: is there any way to bash shell script this on the
command line instead (recursively)?



From rpdooling at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 19:47:43 2006
From: rpdooling at gmail.com (BartlebyScrivener)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 10:47:43 -0700
Subject: os.chdir doesn't accept variables sometimes
References: <1149267516.348440.60290@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149270463.305631.22070@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

>> for album in listdir(getcwd()):

doesn't listdir give you subdirectories AND files?

So, then if you try to:   chdir(album)

If album is a file, it chokes?

Just a guess. I'm on Windows, not Linux.

rd



From donn at u.washington.edu  Fri Jun  2 19:52:41 2006
From: donn at u.washington.edu (Donn Cave)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 10:52:41 -0700
Subject: os.chdir doesn't accept variables sometimes
References: <1149267516.348440.60290@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <donn-913F8D.10524102062006@gnus01.u.washington.edu>

In article <1149267516.348440.60290 at u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
 "dannycolligan at gmail.com" <dannycolligan at gmail.com> wrote:

> #!/usr/bin/python
> 
> from os import *
> 
> chdir("/home/chainlynx/Desktop/Music")
> for artist in listdir(getcwd()):
>         print "===ARTIST: "+artist
>         chdir(artist)
>         for album in listdir(getcwd()):
>                 print "---ALBUM: "+album
>                 print "CWD: " + getcwd()
>                 chdir(album)                       ######ERROR ON THIS
> LINE
>                 for string in listdir(album):
...

> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/home/chainlynx/workspace/PyTest/src/pypack/__init__.py", line
> 12, in ?
>     for string in listdir(album):
> OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'Album1'

To start with, note that your traceback implicates the listdir()
on line 12, not the chdir() before it.  This listdir() uses the
same parameter as that preceding chdir(), that appears to be your
problem.

One of your problems, anyway.  You're doing a lot of downwards
chdirs, but no upwards, which is going to limit the extent of
your directory traversal.

The "from os import *" is a terrible idea, where did you get that?
"os" has a lot of identifiers in it that tend to collide with other
namespaces.  "open" is a classic example.  Don't do that, with "os"
or generally any module.

As a more general direction, it would be a good idea to look
into standard library functions, e.g., os.path.walk

> P.S. Bonus points: is there any way to bash shell script this on the
> command line instead (recursively)?

Depends on what you want it to do, but maybe something like

 find . -name \*.mp3 -exec $HOME/bin/cvt .mp4 {} \;

where cvt would be something like
   #!/bin/sh
   case $1:$2 in
   .mp4:*.mp3)  mp3_to_mp4 $2 ${2%.mp3}.mp4 ;;
   ...

You'd have to think about it.

   Donn Cave, donn at u.washington.edu


From rdh at new.rr.com  Fri Jun  2 21:54:15 2006
From: rdh at new.rr.com (DataSmash)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 12:54:15 -0700
Subject: os.chdir doesn't accept variables sometimes
In-Reply-To: <donn-913F8D.10524102062006@gnus01.u.washington.edu>
References: <1149267516.348440.60290@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<donn-913F8D.10524102062006@gnus01.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <1149278055.629113.47350@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

A simple way to get all the files throughout the directory sturcture...
You may have to rewrite the "CONVERTING" part.

import os, glob

for root, dirs, files in os.walk(os.getcwd()):
    for file in files:
        if file.endswith(".mp3"):
            print "File: " + os.path.abspath(os.path.join(root, file))
            print "CONVERTING "+file+" to
"+file[:file.index(".")]+".mp3"
            file = file[:file.index(".")]+".mp3"


Donn Cave wrote:
> In article <1149267516.348440.60290 at u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
>  "dannycolligan at gmail.com" <dannycolligan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > #!/usr/bin/python
> >
> > from os import *
> >
> > chdir("/home/chainlynx/Desktop/Music")
> > for artist in listdir(getcwd()):
> >         print "===ARTIST: "+artist
> >         chdir(artist)
> >         for album in listdir(getcwd()):
> >                 print "---ALBUM: "+album
> >                 print "CWD: " + getcwd()
> >                 chdir(album)                       ######ERROR ON THIS
> > LINE
> >                 for string in listdir(album):
> ...
>
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> >   File "/home/chainlynx/workspace/PyTest/src/pypack/__init__.py", line
> > 12, in ?
> >     for string in listdir(album):
> > OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'Album1'
>
> To start with, note that your traceback implicates the listdir()
> on line 12, not the chdir() before it.  This listdir() uses the
> same parameter as that preceding chdir(), that appears to be your
> problem.
>
> One of your problems, anyway.  You're doing a lot of downwards
> chdirs, but no upwards, which is going to limit the extent of
> your directory traversal.
>
> The "from os import *" is a terrible idea, where did you get that?
> "os" has a lot of identifiers in it that tend to collide with other
> namespaces.  "open" is a classic example.  Don't do that, with "os"
> or generally any module.
>
> As a more general direction, it would be a good idea to look
> into standard library functions, e.g., os.path.walk
>
> > P.S. Bonus points: is there any way to bash shell script this on the
> > command line instead (recursively)?
>
> Depends on what you want it to do, but maybe something like
>
>  find . -name \*.mp3 -exec $HOME/bin/cvt .mp4 {} \;
>
> where cvt would be something like
>    #!/bin/sh
>    case $1:$2 in
>    .mp4:*.mp3)  mp3_to_mp4 $2 ${2%.mp3}.mp4 ;;
>    ...
>
> You'd have to think about it.
> 
>    Donn Cave, donn at u.washington.edu



From tkpmep at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  2 19:39:36 2006
From: tkpmep at hotmail.com (tkpmep at hotmail.com)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 10:39:36 -0700
Subject: PyExcelerator
Message-ID: <1149269975.981840.286750@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

I write data to Excel files using PyExcelerator 0.6.3.a and have done
so successfully for small files (10-15 cells). I'm experiencing an
error when writing a big chunk of data (10,000 cells) to Excel. By way
of comparison, the same data writes perfectly well to a csv file using
Python's built in csv module. I run the program in PyScripter, and the
traceback shows the following sequence of calls:

main                          (my routine)
writeData                    (my routine)
save                           Line 563
get_biff_data               Line 548
get_biff_data               Line 1357
__row_blocks_rec       Line 1276
get_cells_biff_data      Line 200
get_biff_data               Line 106

SystemError: frexp() result out of range

The line it stops at in get_biff_data is the line that starts with
packed =

def get_biff_data(self):
        rk_encoded = 0

        packed = struct.pack('<d', self.__number)

Any thoughts on what the problem could be?

Sincerely


Thomas Philips



From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Fri Jun  2 23:58:45 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 07:58:45 +1000
Subject: struct.pack('d',
	...) -> "frexp() result out of range" (was Re: PyExcelerator)
In-Reply-To: <1149269975.981840.286750@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149269975.981840.286750@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4480B495.6010207@lexicon.net>

On 3/06/2006 3:39 AM, tkpmep at hotmail.com wrote:
> I write data to Excel files using PyExcelerator 0.6.3.a and have done
> so successfully for small files (10-15 cells). I'm experiencing an
> error when writing a big chunk of data (10,000 cells) to Excel. By way
> of comparison, the same data writes perfectly well to a csv file using
> Python's built in csv module. I run the program in PyScripter, and the
> traceback shows the following sequence of calls:
> 
> main                          (my routine)
> writeData                    (my routine)
> save                           Line 563
> get_biff_data               Line 548
> get_biff_data               Line 1357
> __row_blocks_rec       Line 1276
> get_cells_biff_data      Line 200
> get_biff_data               Line 106

Grumble: When you need to post a traceback, please supply one that shows 
on each line which *file* the source line is in. In this case there are 
multiple files, and 9 classes spread over 4 files have a method called 
get_biff_data.

> 
> SystemError: frexp() result out of range
> 
> The line it stops at in get_biff_data is the line that starts with
> packed =
> 
> def get_biff_data(self):
>         rk_encoded = 0
> 
>         packed = struct.pack('<d', self.__number)
> 
> Any thoughts on what the problem could be?
> 

It is calling struct.pack (see structmodule.c in the Python source) to 
encode one of your cell values as an 8-byte little-endian IEEE 754 
floating-point number. This task is handed off to _PyFloat_Pack8() (see 
floatobject.c). Here's the relevant bit:

"""
	if (x < 0) {
		sign = 1;
		x = -x;
	}
	else
		sign = 0;

	f = frexp(x, &e);

	/* Normalize f to be in the range [1.0, 2.0) */
	if (0.5 <= f && f < 1.0) {
		f *= 2.0;
		e--;
	}
	else if (f == 0.0)
		e = 0;
	else {
		PyErr_SetString(PyExc_SystemError,
				"frexp() result out of range");
		return -1;
	}
"""
where x is your cell value as a C double.

frexp() is a standard C library routine. The above code is just checking 
that it has done its job correctly. AFAICT from reading K&R v2 p251, the 
code is correct.

Aside: isn't open source wonderful? Well it is for me. It could be 
wonderful for you too :-)

I'm not an IEEE 754 guru by any means, so I'm guessing your value could 
be an Inf (infinity) or a NaN (not a number) -- there's no explicit test 
for those in the code -- or you have stumbled on a value that's a corner 
case on your platform. Maybe it's -0.0 (zero with the sign bit set).

Grumble: When you have a problem like this, you should state what 
version of Python you are using, on what platform. The line you get when 
you run Python at the command line is a start e.g.
"""Python 2.4.2 (#67, Sep 28 2005, 12:41:11) [MSC v.1310 32 bit (Intel)] 
on win32"""

Please tell us this, plus explicitly what OS and what hardware you are 
running on.

OK, now what's this dodgy number?? Unfortunately, the error is happening 
  right at the end of your process, in the workbook save method. The 
only info about which row/column is buried deep in pyExcelerator. We 
don't (yet) want to start poking about there ...

Try these steps:
1. Search your alternative CSV output file for the text "Inf" or "NaN" 
(case insensitive).
2. Put some code in your cell write routine to filter the values you are 
writing:

absval = abs(value)
SMALL = 0.000001 # depends on what is reasonable for your app
LARGE = 10.0 ** 10 # depends ...
if not (value == 0.0 or (SMALL <= absval <= LARGE)):
     print "strange value %r in row=%d col=%d" % (value, rownum, colnum)

Then come back and tell us what if anything you've found.

HTH,
John


From writeson at charter.net  Fri Jun  2 20:07:06 2006
From: writeson at charter.net (writeson)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 11:07:06 -0700
Subject: wxPython problems with Fedora Core 5
Message-ID: <1149271626.481398.34440@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Hi all,

I'm trying to use wxPython from a fairly new installation of Fedora
Core 5. I installed wxPython using yum -y install wxPython and that all
seemed to work fine. However, when I run Python and do this:

import wx

I get this:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
  File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/wx/__init__.py", line 45, in ?
    from wxPython import wx
  File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/wxPython/__init__.py", line
20, in ?
    import wxc
ImportError: /usr/lib/libwx_gtk2-2.4.so.0: undefined symbol:
pango_x_get_context

Anyone have any ideas what's going on and what I can do to fix this?

Thanks in advance,
Doug



From jerry.levan at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 21:53:35 2006
From: jerry.levan at gmail.com (jerry.levan at gmail.com)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 12:53:35 -0700
Subject: wxPython problems with Fedora Core 5
In-Reply-To: <1149271626.481398.34440@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149271626.481398.34440@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149278015.617652.23350@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


writeson wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm trying to use wxPython from a fairly new installation of Fedora
> Core 5. I installed wxPython using yum -y install wxPython and that all
> seemed to work fine. However, when I run Python and do this:
>
> import wx
>
> I get this:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/wx/__init__.py", line 45, in ?
>     from wxPython import wx
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/wxPython/__init__.py", line
> 20, in ?
>     import wxc
> ImportError: /usr/lib/libwx_gtk2-2.4.so.0: undefined symbol:
> pango_x_get_context
>
> Anyone have any ideas what's going on and what I can do to fix this?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Doug

Check the FC5 Forums, I think the basic answer was to remove the python
"compat"
rpms.

Jerry



From frank at chagford.com  Sat Jun  3 08:58:53 2006
From: frank at chagford.com (Frank Millman)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 23:58:53 -0700
Subject: wxPython problems with Fedora Core 5
In-Reply-To: <1149271626.481398.34440@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149271626.481398.34440@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149317933.786386.304070@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


writeson wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm trying to use wxPython from a fairly new installation of Fedora
> Core 5. I installed wxPython using yum -y install wxPython and that all
> seemed to work fine. However, when I run Python and do this:
>
> import wx
>
> I get this:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/wx/__init__.py", line 45, in ?
>     from wxPython import wx
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/wxPython/__init__.py", line
> 20, in ?
>     import wxc
> ImportError: /usr/lib/libwx_gtk2-2.4.so.0: undefined symbol:
> pango_x_get_context
>
> Anyone have any ideas what's going on and what I can do to fix this?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Doug

Here is a link to a message in the wxpython-users mailing list archive,
which apparently gives the solution to your problem.

http://tinyurl.com/gf276

I cannot vouch for it. I installed wxPython on FC5 without any
problems, using the FC4 binary rpm's from wxPython.org.

Hope it works for you.

Frank Millman



From writeson at charter.net  Thu Jun 15 02:35:09 2006
From: writeson at charter.net (writeson)
Date: 14 Jun 2006 17:35:09 -0700
Subject: wxPython problems with Fedora Core 5
In-Reply-To: <1149317933.786386.304070@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149271626.481398.34440@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149317933.786386.304070@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1150331709.388852.50960@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>

Frank,

Thanks for the link, that solved the problem for me with FC5! That was
a great help to me!

Doug



From sreeram at tachyontech.net  Fri Jun  2 20:19:17 2006
From: sreeram at tachyontech.net (K.S.Sreeram)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 23:49:17 +0530
Subject: announce: DaVinci Rendering Engine
Message-ID: <44808125.9050607@tachyontech.net>

Hi All,

I've started working on a new open source graphics library called
DaVinci. DaVinci aims to provide a declarative vector graphics based
framework for building GUIs.

http://tachyon.in/davinci/

It is being built on top of Anti-Grain Geometry and PyQt4.

Currently, dvpaint, a python wrapper around AGG is available, along with
some demo code.

Any and all feedback is welcome!

Regards
Sreeram

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From invalidemail at aerojockey.com  Sat Jun  3 03:52:57 2006
From: invalidemail at aerojockey.com (Carl Banks)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 18:52:57 -0700
Subject: announce: DaVinci Rendering Engine
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6467.1149272398.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6467.1149272398.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149299576.937958.176450@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

K.S.Sreeram wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I've started working on a new open source graphics library called
> DaVinci. DaVinci aims to provide a declarative vector graphics based
> framework for building GUIs.
>
> http://tachyon.in/davinci/

I hope it'll get St. John's face right this time.


Carl Banks



From noreply at python.org  Fri Jun  2 21:12:12 2006
From: noreply at python.org (Returned mail)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:12:12 -0400
Subject: Returned mail: see transcript for details
Message-ID: <20060602194401.BEF181E400C@bag.python.org>

Your message was not delivered due to the following reason(s):

Your message could not be delivered because the destination computer was
not reachable within the allowed queue period. The amount of time
a message is queued before it is returned depends on local configura-
tion parameters.

Most likely there is a network problem that prevented delivery, but
it is also possible that the computer is turned off, or does not
have a mail system running right now.

Your message was not delivered within 7 days:
Server 136.96.117.189 is not responding.

The following recipients could not receive this message:
<python-list at python.org>

Please reply to postmaster at python.org
if you feel this message to be in error.


From johnjsal at NOSPAMgmail.com  Fri Jun  2 21:15:15 2006
From: johnjsal at NOSPAMgmail.com (John Salerno)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:15:15 GMT
Subject: can you iterate over a FieldStorage object?
Message-ID: <770gg.2223$No6.47403@news.tufts.edu>

I'm trying to use a for loop with a FieldStorage object and I get the 
following error. Can you not treat it like a dictionary, or am I writing 
the for loop incorrectly?

for item in form:
     print item
     # or print item.value



KeyError	Python 2.2.1: /usr/bin/python
Fri Jun 2 15:12:36 2006

A problem occurred in a Python script. Here is the sequence of function 
calls leading up to the error, in the order they occurred.

  /kunden/homepages/7/d159103796/htdocs/labinfo.py
     6 print 'content-type: text/html\n'
     7
     8 form = cgi.FieldStorage(keep_blank_values=True)
     9 for item in form:
    10         print item
item undefined, form = FieldStorage(None, None, 
[MiniFieldStorage('firs...02116'), MiniFieldStorage('foreignAddress', '')])

  /usr/lib/python2.2/cgi.py in __getitem__(self=FieldStorage(None, None, 
[MiniFieldStorage('firs...02116'), MiniFieldStorage('foreignAddress', 
'')]), key=0)
   548             if item.name == key: found.append(item)
   549         if not found:
   550             raise KeyError, key
   551         if len(found) == 1:
   552             return found[0]
KeyError undefined, key = 0

KeyError: 0
       __doc__ = 'Mapping key not found.'
       __getitem__ = <bound method KeyError.__getitem__ of 
<exceptions.KeyError instance at 0x81633e4>>
       __init__ = <bound method KeyError.__init__ of 
<exceptions.KeyError instance at 0x81633e4>>
       __module__ = 'exceptions'
       __str__ = <bound method KeyError.__str__ of <exceptions.KeyError 
instance at 0x81633e4>>
       args = (0,)


From heikki at osafoundation.org  Fri Jun  2 21:18:23 2006
From: heikki at osafoundation.org (Heikki Toivonen)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:18:23 -0700
Subject: ANN: M2Crypto 0.16beta1
Message-ID: <pqqdnTtILa2WEh3ZnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d@comcast.com>

I am happy to announce the first beta of the M2Crypto 0.16 release.

Please give these bits a spin and report any problems. I will be making
new betas once a week (or more often if needed) until regressions are
fixed. I expect the final 0.16 bits will be out by the end of June 2006.

Highlights:
- All known memory leaks fixed
- All known regressions fixed
- Added --openssl option to build command which can be used to specify
  where OpenSSL is installed, by Matt Rodriguez
- ECDSA signatures and ECDH key agreement, requires OpenSSL 0.9.8+,
  by Arno Bakker
- Added sha224, sha256, sha384 and sha512, by Larry Bugbee
- Added serialNumber, SN, surname, GN and givenName fields to X509_Name,
  by Martin Paljak
- And various other improvements and bugfixes, see CHANGES file

Requirements:
  * Python 2.3 or newer
  * OpenSSL 0.9.7 or newer
    o Some optional new features will require OpenSSL 0.9.8 or newer
  * SWIG 1.3.24 or newer

Get it while it's hot from M2Crypto homepage:
http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Projects/MeTooCrypto

-- 
  Heikki Toivonen


From lolmcbride at googlemail.com  Fri Jun  2 21:31:43 2006
From: lolmcbride at googlemail.com (lolmcbride at googlemail.com)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 12:31:43 -0700
Subject: Using pysqlite2
Message-ID: <1149276702.992801.247640@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Is it possible to use this for sending triggers to a sqlite db?Could
someone provide me with an example of how to do this please?
Thanks



From Dennis.Benzinger at gmx.net  Fri Jun  2 22:55:25 2006
From: Dennis.Benzinger at gmx.net (Dennis Benzinger)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 22:55:25 +0200
Subject: Using pysqlite2
In-Reply-To: <1149276702.992801.247640@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149276702.992801.247640@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4480a5c8$1@news.uni-ulm.de>

lolmcbride at googlemail.com wrote:
> Is it possible to use this for sending triggers to a sqlite db?Could
> someone provide me with an example of how to do this please?
> Thanks

Do you want to implement a trigger for a SQLite database in Python?

That won't work. Triggers in SQLite can only contain UPDATE, INSERT, 
DELETE and SELECT statements http://sqlite.org/lang_createtrigger.html>.

Bye,
Dennis


From gh at ghaering.de  Sat Jun  3 01:05:15 2006
From: gh at ghaering.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gerhard_H=E4ring?=)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 01:05:15 +0200
Subject: Using pysqlite2
In-Reply-To: <4480a5c8$1@news.uni-ulm.de>
References: <1149276702.992801.247640@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<4480a5c8$1@news.uni-ulm.de>
Message-ID: <4480C42B.2030106@ghaering.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dennis Benzinger wrote:
> lolmcbride at googlemail.com wrote:
>> Is it possible to use this for sending triggers to a sqlite db?Could
>> someone provide me with an example of how to do this please?
>> Thanks
> 
> Do you want to implement a trigger for a SQLite database in Python?
> 
> That won't work. Triggers in SQLite can only contain UPDATE, INSERT, 
> DELETE and SELECT statements http://sqlite.org/lang_createtrigger.html>.

Yes, but you can fake it.

You can create a new SQL function using pysqlite's create_function, and
then just call that function in the trigger. In that Python function from
the trigger, you can then even access SQLite again.

I've attached a quick-and-dirty example.

Note that exceptions in functions get ignored currently, so you better
implement a try-except with some kind of logging during development,
otherwise you will wonder why nothing happens.

Also, older pysqlite releases won't provide useful error messages if you
have errors in the SQL you send to executescript(). Using a recent pysqlite
release is recommended if you plan to use executescript().

- -- Gerhard
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From lolmcbride at googlemail.com  Wed Jun  7 08:54:19 2006
From: lolmcbride at googlemail.com (xera121)
Date: 6 Jun 2006 23:54:19 -0700
Subject: Using pysqlite2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6482.1149289519.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <1149276702.992801.247640@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<4480a5c8$1@news.uni-ulm.de>
	<mailman.6482.1149289519.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149663259.756749.99440@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Many thanks Gerhard - the solution you offer is workable in the scope
of my project.
Gracias muchacho
Xera121



From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Fri Jun  2 22:01:17 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:01:17 -0400
Subject: Open Source Charting Tool
Message-ID: <1L0gg.1841$Su3.159041@news20.bellglobal.com>

Hi,



I developed a HTML reporting tool that renders Oracle data to HTML and 
Oracle.



At this point I have to add charts (3d bars and pie charts) to this 
application. I don't think that I have to do it from scratch.



Is there any open source charting tool that help me create charts in JPG or 
gif format?



Thanks,

Alan




From larry.bates at websafe.com  Fri Jun  2 22:42:58 2006
From: larry.bates at websafe.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:42:58 -0500
Subject: Open Source Charting Tool
In-Reply-To: <1L0gg.1841$Su3.159041@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <1L0gg.1841$Su3.159041@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <Z9-dnSpDpb1TPx3ZRVn-iA@comcast.com>

ReportLab Graphics can do 2D and pie charts, but I don't think it does
3D charts yet.

www.reporlab.org


Larry Bates

A.M wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> I developed a HTML reporting tool that renders Oracle data to HTML and 
> Oracle.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point I have to add charts (3d bars and pie charts) to this 
> application. I don't think that I have to do it from scratch.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any open source charting tool that help me create charts in JPG or 
> gif format?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Alan
> 
> 


From alanalan at newsgroup.nospam  Fri Jun  2 22:56:55 2006
From: alanalan at newsgroup.nospam (A.M)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:56:55 -0400
Subject: Open Source Charting Tool
References: <1L0gg.1841$Su3.159041@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<Z9-dnSpDpb1TPx3ZRVn-iA@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <bz1gg.1855$Su3.159648@news20.bellglobal.com>

Hi Larry,



I can't browse to www.reporlab.org, but I found http://www.reportlab.com/ 
which has a  commercial charting product. Is that what you referring to?



Thanks,

Alan



"Larry Bates" <larry.bates at websafe.com> wrote in message 
news:Z9-dnSpDpb1TPx3ZRVn-iA at comcast.com...
> ReportLab Graphics can do 2D and pie charts, but I don't think it does
> 3D charts yet.
>
> www.reporlab.org
>
>
> Larry Bates
>
> A.M wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> I developed a HTML reporting tool that renders Oracle data to HTML and
>> Oracle.
>>
>>
>>
>> At this point I have to add charts (3d bars and pie charts) to this
>> application. I don't think that I have to do it from scratch.
>>
>>
>>
>> Is there any open source charting tool that help me create charts in JPG 
>> or
>> gif format?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Alan
>>
>> 




From felipe.lessa at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 23:13:56 2006
From: felipe.lessa at gmail.com (Felipe Almeida Lessa)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:13:56 -0300
Subject: Open Source Charting Tool
In-Reply-To: <bz1gg.1855$Su3.159648@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <1L0gg.1841$Su3.159041@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<Z9-dnSpDpb1TPx3ZRVn-iA@comcast.com>
	<bz1gg.1855$Su3.159648@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <1149282836.4189.5.camel@kenshin.CASA>

Em Sex, 2006-06-02 ?s 16:56 -0400, A.M escreveu:
> I can't browse to www.reporlab.org, but I found http://www.reportlab.com/ 
> which has a  commercial charting product. Is that what you referring to?

ReportLab (the commercial bussiness thing on .com) is where the main
developers of ReportLab (a library freely available on www.reporlab.org)
work.  So what you want really is .org, but apparently it's having
problems right now. 

-- 
Felipe.



From scott.daniels at acm.org  Fri Jun  2 23:51:23 2006
From: scott.daniels at acm.org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 14:51:23 -0700
Subject: Open Source Charting Tool
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6476.1149282850.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <1L0gg.1841$Su3.159041@news20.bellglobal.com>	<Z9-dnSpDpb1TPx3ZRVn-iA@comcast.com>	<bz1gg.1855$Su3.159648@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6476.1149282850.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4480ae6c$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Felipe Almeida Lessa wrote:
> Em Sex, 2006-06-02 ?s 16:56 -0400, A.M escreveu:
>> I can't browse to www.reporlab.org, but I found http://www.reportlab.com/ 
>> which has a  commercial charting product. Is that what you referring to?
> 
> ReportLab (the commercial bussiness thing on .com) is where the main
> developers of ReportLab (a library freely available on www.reporlab.org)
> work.  So what you want really is .org, but apparently it's having
> problems right now. 
> 
Or, you could look for:
         http://www.reportlab.org/
------------------------^

--Scott David Daniels
scott.daniels at acm.org


From larry.bates at websafe.com  Sat Jun  3 00:24:01 2006
From: larry.bates at websafe.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:24:01 -0500
Subject: Open Source Charting Tool
In-Reply-To: <4480ae6c$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
References: <1L0gg.1841$Su3.159041@news20.bellglobal.com>	<Z9-dnSpDpb1TPx3ZRVn-iA@comcast.com>	<bz1gg.1855$Su3.159648@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6476.1149282850.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<4480ae6c$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <3aCdnbRzDu3gJx3ZnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@comcast.com>

Ouch.  I had a typo.

-Larry

Scott David Daniels wrote:
> Felipe Almeida Lessa wrote:
>> Em Sex, 2006-06-02 ?s 16:56 -0400, A.M escreveu:
>>> I can't browse to www.reporlab.org, but I found
>>> http://www.reportlab.com/ which has a  commercial charting product.
>>> Is that what you referring to?
>>
>> ReportLab (the commercial bussiness thing on .com) is where the main
>> developers of ReportLab (a library freely available on www.reporlab.org)
>> work.  So what you want really is .org, but apparently it's having
>> problems right now.
> Or, you could look for:
>         http://www.reportlab.org/
> ------------------------^
> 
> --Scott David Daniels
> scott.daniels at acm.org


From piet at cs.uu.nl  Sat Jun  3 00:58:28 2006
From: piet at cs.uu.nl (Piet van Oostrum)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 00:58:28 +0200
Subject: Open Source Charting Tool
References: <1L0gg.1841$Su3.159041@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<Z9-dnSpDpb1TPx3ZRVn-iA@comcast.com>
	<bz1gg.1855$Su3.159648@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.6476.1149282850.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m2pshr17xn.fsf@ordesa.lan>

>>>>> Felipe Almeida Lessa <felipe.lessa at gmail.com> (FAL) wrote:

>FAL> Em Sex, 2006-06-02 ?s 16:56 -0400, A.M escreveu:
>>> I can't browse to www.reporlab.org, but I found http://www.reportlab.com/ 
>>> which has a  commercial charting product. Is that what you referring to?

>FAL> ReportLab (the commercial bussiness thing on .com) is where the main
>FAL> developers of ReportLab (a library freely available on www.reporlab.org)
>FAL> work.  So what you want really is .org, but apparently it's having
>FAL> problems right now. 

No, but it should really be www.reportlab.org (with the *t*).
-- 
Piet van Oostrum <piet at cs.uu.nl>
URL: http://www.cs.uu.nl/~piet [PGP 8DAE142BE17999C4]
Private email: piet at vanoostrum.org


From tchur at optushome.com.au  Fri Jun  2 23:59:18 2006
From: tchur at optushome.com.au (Tim Churches)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 07:59:18 +1000
Subject: Open Source Charting Tool
In-Reply-To: <bz1gg.1855$Su3.159648@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <1L0gg.1841$Su3.159041@news20.bellglobal.com>	<Z9-dnSpDpb1TPx3ZRVn-iA@comcast.com>
	<bz1gg.1855$Su3.159648@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <4480B4B6.4050905@optushome.com.au>

A.M wrote:
> I can't browse to www.reporlab.org, but I found http://www.reportlab.com/ 
> which has a  commercial charting product. Is that what you referring to?

Typo in the URL. Try http://www.reportlab.org

You should also have a look at http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/

Tim C


From felipe.lessa at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 23:04:59 2006
From: felipe.lessa at gmail.com (Felipe Almeida Lessa)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:04:59 -0300
Subject: Open Source Charting Tool
In-Reply-To: <Z9-dnSpDpb1TPx3ZRVn-iA@comcast.com>
References: <1L0gg.1841$Su3.159041@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<Z9-dnSpDpb1TPx3ZRVn-iA@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <1149282299.4189.2.camel@kenshin.CASA>

Em Sex, 2006-06-02 ?s 15:42 -0500, Larry Bates escreveu:
> ReportLab Graphics can do 2D and pie charts, but I don't think it does
> 3D charts yet.
> 
> www.reporlab.org

It does, but I'm not sure if the PNG backend is as good as the PDF one.

-- 
Felipe.



From harry.g.george at boeing.com  Mon Jun  5 07:09:55 2006
From: harry.g.george at boeing.com (Harry George)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:09:55 GMT
Subject: Open Source Charting Tool
References: <1L0gg.1841$Su3.159041@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <xqxfyikmbmk.fsf@cola3.ca.boeing.com>

"A.M" <alanalan at newsgroup.nospam> writes:

> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> I developed a HTML reporting tool that renders Oracle data to HTML and 
> Oracle.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point I have to add charts (3d bars and pie charts) to this 
> application. I don't think that I have to do it from scratch.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any open source charting tool that help me create charts in JPG or 
> gif format?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Alan
> 
> 

See pygdchart
http://www.nullcube.com/software/pygdchart.html

-- 
Harry George
PLM Engineering Architecture


From belred at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 16:36:14 2006
From: belred at gmail.com (Bryan)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 07:36:14 -0700
Subject: Open Source Charting Tool
In-Reply-To: <xqxfyikmbmk.fsf@cola3.ca.boeing.com>
References: <1L0gg.1841$Su3.159041@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<xqxfyikmbmk.fsf@cola3.ca.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <4484415E.5060401@gmail.com>

Harry George wrote:
> See pygdchart
> http://www.nullcube.com/software/pygdchart.html
> 

this looks pretty nice.  i don't see in the docs if and how it can be integrated 
with other gui toolkits such wxpython. :(

bryan



From fanmail at micah-wedemeyer.net  Fri Jun  2 22:30:04 2006
From: fanmail at micah-wedemeyer.net (Micah)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 13:30:04 -0700
Subject: Reversible replacement of whitespace characters with visible
	characters
Message-ID: <1149280203.974237.209080@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Hi,

I'm looking for a tool to do the following 2 things:

1) Given a string (ie. file, std input, whatever), replace all
whitespace characters with visible characters (like their Unicode value
or something).  The end result will be one long unbroken line

2) Given a string altered as in step 1, "decode" it back to the
original string.

Note: The original string (it will usually be source files) might
already contain Unicode values, and these must remain and not be
altered in step 2.

Note 2: I'm working in a Windows XP environment, but I have access to
cygwin if that makes a difference.

Can anyone think of a tool that already does this?  I could probably
whip something up, but if there's already something that does it I'd
rather just use it.

Micah



From jstroud at ucla.edu  Fri Jun  2 22:43:19 2006
From: jstroud at ucla.edu (James Stroud)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 13:43:19 -0700
Subject: Reversible replacement of whitespace characters with visible
	characters
In-Reply-To: <1149280203.974237.209080@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149280203.974237.209080@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5q7t7$q2g$1@daisy.noc.ucla.edu>

Micah wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm looking for a tool to do the following 2 things:
> 
> 1) Given a string (ie. file, std input, whatever), replace all
> whitespace characters with visible characters (like their Unicode value
> or something).  The end result will be one long unbroken line
> 
> 2) Given a string altered as in step 1, "decode" it back to the
> original string.
> 
> Note: The original string (it will usually be source files) might
> already contain Unicode values, and these must remain and not be
> altered in step 2.
> 
> Note 2: I'm working in a Windows XP environment, but I have access to
> cygwin if that makes a difference.
> 
> Can anyone think of a tool that already does this?  I could probably
> whip something up, but if there's already something that does it I'd
> rather just use it.
> 
> Micah
> 

Try urllib.

py> import urllib
py> astr = 'faf\tfasf dsf\ndsfds dsf dsaf \t\r'
py> urllib.quote(astr)
'faf%09fasf%20dsf%0Adsfds%20dsf%20dsaf%20%09%0D'
py> print astr
faf     fasf dsf
dsfds dsf dsaf

James

-- 
James Stroud
UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics
Box 951570
Los Angeles, CA 90095

http://www.jamesstroud.com/


From fanmail at micah-wedemeyer.net  Fri Jun  2 23:55:38 2006
From: fanmail at micah-wedemeyer.net (Micah)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 14:55:38 -0700
Subject: Reversible replacement of whitespace characters with visible
	characters
References: <1149280203.974237.209080@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<e5q7t7$q2g$1@daisy.noc.ucla.edu>
Message-ID: <1149285338.168243.22040@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

James Stroud wrote:
> Micah wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm looking for a tool to do the following 2 things:
> >
> > 1) Given a string (ie. file, std input, whatever), replace all
> > whitespace characters with visible characters (like their Unicode value
> > or something).  The end result will be one long unbroken line
> >
> > 2) Given a string altered as in step 1, "decode" it back to the
> > original string.
> >
> > Note: The original string (it will usually be source files) might
> > already contain Unicode values, and these must remain and not be
> > altered in step 2.
> >
> > Note 2: I'm working in a Windows XP environment, but I have access to
> > cygwin if that makes a difference.
> >
> > Can anyone think of a tool that already does this?  I could probably
> > whip something up, but if there's already something that does it I'd
> > rather just use it.
> >
> > Micah
> >
>
> Try urllib.
>
> py> import urllib
> py> astr = 'faf\tfasf dsf\ndsfds dsf dsaf \t\r'
> py> urllib.quote(astr)
> 'faf%09fasf%20dsf%0Adsfds%20dsf%20dsaf%20%09%0D'
> py> print astr
> faf     fasf dsf
> dsfds dsf dsaf
>
> James
>
> --
> James Stroud
> UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics
> Box 951570
> Los Angeles, CA 90095
>
> http://www.jamesstroud.com/


Perfect!! Just what I was looking for!



From alikakakhel at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  2 23:03:04 2006
From: alikakakhel at yahoo.com (greenflame)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 14:03:04 -0700
Subject: Making a second window with Tkinter
Message-ID: <1149282184.587252.59160@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

I have a script that will make a window that shows the text I want
using Tkinter. What I need to do is to make another window popup above
the current window showing other text. I tryed:

-----------
from Tkinter imprt *

root = Tk()

L = Label(root, text="Blah")
L.grid(row=0, column=0)

# Other labels are also here but their inclusion is not so relavent.

root.mainloop()

sub = Tk()

subL = Label(root, text="Blah")
subL.grid(row=0, column=0)

sub.mainloop()
----------
However, when I ran the script it only showed the second window after I
closed the first one. After looking at the code I guess I can see why.
The problem is that I do not know how to fix the issue. Thank you for
you help.



From jstroud at ucla.edu  Fri Jun  2 23:31:23 2006
From: jstroud at ucla.edu (James Stroud)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 14:31:23 -0700
Subject: Making a second window with Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <1149282184.587252.59160@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149282184.587252.59160@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5qanb$scs$1@daisy.noc.ucla.edu>

greenflame wrote:
> I have a script that will make a window that shows the text I want
> using Tkinter. What I need to do is to make another window popup above
> the current window showing other text. I tryed:
> 
> -----------
> from Tkinter imprt *
> 
> root = Tk()
> 
> L = Label(root, text="Blah")
> L.grid(row=0, column=0)
> 
> # Other labels are also here but their inclusion is not so relavent.
> 
> root.mainloop()
> 
> sub = Tk()
> 
> subL = Label(root, text="Blah")
> subL.grid(row=0, column=0)
> 
> sub.mainloop()
> ----------
> However, when I ran the script it only showed the second window after I
> closed the first one. After looking at the code I guess I can see why.
> The problem is that I do not know how to fix the issue. Thank you for
> you help.
> 

Use Toplevel().

from Tkinter import *

root = Tk()

def callback(e=None):
   t = Toplevel()
   Label(t, text='blah').pack()

b = Button(root, text='new top', command=callback)
b.pack()
root.mainloop()

Also, do not do this twice in the same script: Tk().

James

-- 
James Stroud
UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics
Box 951570
Los Angeles, CA 90095

http://www.jamesstroud.com/


From alikakakhel at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  3 05:31:12 2006
From: alikakakhel at yahoo.com (greenflame)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 20:31:12 -0700
Subject: Making a second window with Tkinter
References: <1149282184.587252.59160@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<e5qanb$scs$1@daisy.noc.ucla.edu>
Message-ID: <1149305472.893535.67770@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Ok so I played with your script. Here is a script that more closely
mimics what I would like to do except that the way I make the variable
deckstr will be different. The only thing I am confused about is that
it opens the second window in the beginning and when I click on the
button, it does nothing even after I have closed the other window.

from Tkinter import *
from string import join

root = Tk()

def showdeck(deck):
   deckwin = Toplevel()
   deckstr = join(deck, "\n")
   Label(deckwin, text=deckstr, justify=LEFT, anchor=W,
font="Courier").pack(fill=X)

L = Button(root, text="Show Deck", font="Courier",
command=showdeck(list('zxcvbnm')))
L.pack()

root.mainloop()



From rtw at freenet.co.uk  Sat Jun  3 11:19:07 2006
From: rtw at freenet.co.uk (Rob Williscroft)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 04:19:07 -0500
Subject: Making a second window with Tkinter
References: <1149282184.587252.59160@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<e5qanb$scs$1@daisy.noc.ucla.edu>
	<1149305472.893535.67770@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <Xns97D76905C1395rtwfreenetREMOVEcouk@216.196.109.145>

greenflame wrote in news:1149305472.893535.67770
@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com in comp.lang.python:

> Ok so I played with your script. Here is a script that more closely
> mimics what I would like to do except that the way I make the variable
> deckstr will be different. The only thing I am confused about is that
> it opens the second window in the beginning and when I click on the
> button, it does nothing even after I have closed the other window.
> 
> from Tkinter import *
> from string import join
> 
> root = Tk()
> 
> def showdeck(deck):
>    deckwin = Toplevel()
>    deckstr = join(deck, "\n")
>    Label(deckwin, text=deckstr, justify=LEFT, anchor=W,
> font="Courier").pack(fill=X)
> 
> L = Button(root, text="Show Deck", font="Courier",
> command=showdeck(list('zxcvbnm')))

You made the buttons command option None (which is what 
showdeck() returns), you need to make command a function 
that calls showdeck(list('zxcvbnm')).
 
L = Button(root, text="Show Deck", font="Courier",
command= lambda : showdeck(list('zxcvbnm')))

> L.pack()
> 
> root.mainloop()
> 

lambda's docs online:
http://docs.python.org/ref/lambdas.html

Rob.
-- 
http://www.victim-prime.dsl.pipex.com/


From alikakakhel at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  3 23:17:59 2006
From: alikakakhel at yahoo.com (greenflame)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 14:17:59 -0700
Subject: Making a second window with Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <Xns97D76905C1395rtwfreenetREMOVEcouk@216.196.109.145>
References: <1149282184.587252.59160@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<e5qanb$scs$1@daisy.noc.ucla.edu>
	<1149305472.893535.67770@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<Xns97D76905C1395rtwfreenetREMOVEcouk@216.196.109.145>
Message-ID: <1149369479.699846.205410@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>

What you said about why my code is wrong is still a bit fuzzy but it
worked!



From fairwinds at eastlink.ca  Fri Jun  2 23:15:28 2006
From: fairwinds at eastlink.ca (David Pratt)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:15:28 -0300
Subject: Initializing an attribute that needs the object
Message-ID: <4480AA70.2020804@eastlink.ca>

Hi. I want to have different handlers to do perform logic. The problem 
is the Handler requires an instance of the factory since it will use its 
own methods in conjunction with methods of the factory.

Once I have got a Factory instance I can give it a new handler (see 
below). It would be more flexible if I could provide a handle in 
constructor - but how to do this when it requires the object itself. 
Would I use a super for this sort of thing? Many thanks

Regards,
David


class Factory:

	def __init__(self):
		self.some_handler = Handler(self)

f = Factory()
f.some_handler = AnotherHandler(f)



From marco.giusti at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 23:28:19 2006
From: marco.giusti at gmail.com (Marco Giusti)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 23:28:19 +0200
Subject: Initializing an attribute that needs the object
In-Reply-To: <4480AA70.2020804@eastlink.ca>
References: <4480AA70.2020804@eastlink.ca>
Message-ID: <20060602212819.GA2688@localdomain>

On Fri, Jun 02, 2006 at 06:15:28PM -0300, David Pratt wrote:
>Hi. I want to have different handlers to do perform logic. The problem 
>is the Handler requires an instance of the factory since it will use its 
>own methods in conjunction with methods of the factory.
>
>Once I have got a Factory instance I can give it a new handler (see 
>below). It would be more flexible if I could provide a handle in 
>constructor - but how to do this when it requires the object itself. 
>Would I use a super for this sort of thing? Many thanks

when __init__ is called the object already exists.

>class Factory:
>
>	def __init__(self):
>		self.some_handler = Handler(self)
>
>f = Factory()
>f.some_handler = AnotherHandler(f)

try this, should works:

class Factory:

    def __init__(self):
        self._some_handler = AnotherHandler(self)

maybe a class hierarchy is good for you

ciao
m.
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From fairwinds at eastlink.ca  Fri Jun  2 23:45:24 2006
From: fairwinds at eastlink.ca (David Pratt)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:45:24 -0300
Subject: Initializing an attribute that needs the object
In-Reply-To: <20060602212819.GA2688@localdomain>
References: <4480AA70.2020804@eastlink.ca> <20060602212819.GA2688@localdomain>
Message-ID: <4480B174.5090403@eastlink.ca>

Hi Marco. Thanks for your reply. I am providing the handler with the 
factory instance as I have shown. This is how my code currently works. 
What I am trying to figure out is how to possibly provide the handler in 
the constructor when it needs the factory instance. This would give me 
some better flexibility.

ie.

class Factory

	def __init__(self, factory):
  		
At this point I don't have self. Would super help me?

Regards,
David


Marco Giusti wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 02, 2006 at 06:15:28PM -0300, David Pratt wrote:
>> Hi. I want to have different handlers to do perform logic. The problem 
>> is the Handler requires an instance of the factory since it will use its 
>> own methods in conjunction with methods of the factory.
>>
>> Once I have got a Factory instance I can give it a new handler (see 
>> below). It would be more flexible if I could provide a handle in 
>> constructor - but how to do this when it requires the object itself. 
>> Would I use a super for this sort of thing? Many thanks
> 
> when __init__ is called the object already exists.
> 
>> class Factory:
>>
>> 	def __init__(self):
>> 		self.some_handler = Handler(self)
>>
>> f = Factory()
>> f.some_handler = AnotherHandler(f)
> 
> try this, should works:
> 
> class Factory:
> 
>     def __init__(self):
>         self._some_handler = AnotherHandler(self)
> 
> maybe a class hierarchy is good for you
> 
> ciao
> m.
> 


From fairwinds at eastlink.ca  Fri Jun  2 23:47:43 2006
From: fairwinds at eastlink.ca (David Pratt)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:47:43 -0300
Subject: Initializing an attribute that needs the object
In-Reply-To: <4480B174.5090403@eastlink.ca>
References: <4480AA70.2020804@eastlink.ca> <20060602212819.GA2688@localdomain>
	<4480B174.5090403@eastlink.ca>
Message-ID: <4480B1FF.5020009@eastlink.ca>

My apologies. What I meant to write was this

class Factory

  	def __init__(self, handler):



David Pratt wrote:
> Hi Marco. Thanks for your reply. I am providing the handler with the 
> factory instance as I have shown. This is how my code currently works. 
> What I am trying to figure out is how to possibly provide the handler in 
> the constructor when it needs the factory instance. This would give me 
> some better flexibility.
> 
> ie.
> 
> class Factory
> 
> 	def __init__(self, factory):
>   		
> At this point I don't have self. Would super help me?
> 
> Regards,
> David
> 
> 
> Marco Giusti wrote:
>> On Fri, Jun 02, 2006 at 06:15:28PM -0300, David Pratt wrote:
>>> Hi. I want to have different handlers to do perform logic. The problem 
>>> is the Handler requires an instance of the factory since it will use its 
>>> own methods in conjunction with methods of the factory.
>>>
>>> Once I have got a Factory instance I can give it a new handler (see 
>>> below). It would be more flexible if I could provide a handle in 
>>> constructor - but how to do this when it requires the object itself. 
>>> Would I use a super for this sort of thing? Many thanks
>> when __init__ is called the object already exists.
>>
>>> class Factory:
>>>
>>> 	def __init__(self):
>>> 		self.some_handler = Handler(self)
>>>
>>> f = Factory()
>>> f.some_handler = AnotherHandler(f)
>> try this, should works:
>>
>> class Factory:
>>
>>     def __init__(self):
>>         self._some_handler = AnotherHandler(self)
>>
>> maybe a class hierarchy is good for you
>>
>> ciao
>> m.
>>


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Sat Jun  3 04:03:21 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 04:03:21 +0200
Subject: Initializing an attribute that needs the object
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6477.1149282932.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6477.1149282932.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4480be5b$0$27367$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

David Pratt a ?crit :
> Hi. I want to have different handlers to do perform logic. The problem 
> is the Handler requires an instance of the factory since it will use its 
> own methods in conjunction with methods of the factory.
> 
> Once I have got a Factory instance I can give it a new handler (see 
> below). It would be more flexible if I could provide a handle in 
> constructor - but how to do this when it requires the object itself. 

Hint : Python classes are objects too.

> class Factory:

Do yourself a favour : use new-style classes.

class Factory(object):
   def __init__(self, handler_class):
     self.handler = handler_class(self)

class SomeHandler(object):
   def __init__(self, factory):
     self.factory = factory

f = Factory(SomeHandler)


From fairwinds at eastlink.ca  Sat Jun  3 01:17:02 2006
From: fairwinds at eastlink.ca (David Pratt)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:17:02 -0300
Subject: Initializing an attribute that needs the object
In-Reply-To: <4480be5b$0$27367$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
References: <mailman.6477.1149282932.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<4480be5b$0$27367$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <4480C6EE.1090909@eastlink.ca>

Hi Bruno. This is certainly what I was missing. Thank you. I am afraid I 
am behind the times with use of object. Will I only use object when I am 
not subclassing? Where will I find a document that provides info on the 
use of object in new style classes? Many thanks.

Regards,
David

Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
> David Pratt a ?crit :
>> Hi. I want to have different handlers to do perform logic. The problem 
>> is the Handler requires an instance of the factory since it will use its 
>> own methods in conjunction with methods of the factory.
>>
>> Once I have got a Factory instance I can give it a new handler (see 
>> below). It would be more flexible if I could provide a handle in 
>> constructor - but how to do this when it requires the object itself. 
> 
> Hint : Python classes are objects too.
> 
>> class Factory:
> 
> Do yourself a favour : use new-style classes.
> 
> class Factory(object):
>    def __init__(self, handler_class):
>      self.handler = handler_class(self)
> 
> class SomeHandler(object):
>    def __init__(self, factory):
>      self.factory = factory
> 
> f = Factory(SomeHandler)


From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Sat Jun  3 01:40:55 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 09:40:55 +1000
Subject: Initializing an attribute that needs the object
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6483.1149290231.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6477.1149282932.27775.python-list@python.org>	<4480be5b$0$27367$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
	<mailman.6483.1149290231.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4480CC87.8050006@lexicon.net>

On 3/06/2006 9:17 AM, David Pratt **TOPPOSTED**:
> Hi Bruno. This is certainly what I was missing. Thank you. I am afraid I 
> am behind the times with use of object. Will I only use object when I am 
> not subclassing? 

More precisely, don't use object when you are subclassing.

> Where will I find a document that provides info on the 
> use of object in new style classes?
> 

Other way up :-)
A new-style class is one which inherits ultimately from the type that is 
called "object".

class NewStyleClass(object):
     pass

class OldStyleClass():
     pass

Docs are a bit ummmm ...
See this: http://www.python.org/doc/newstyle/

HTH,
John



From fairwinds at eastlink.ca  Sat Jun  3 14:46:44 2006
From: fairwinds at eastlink.ca (David Pratt)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 09:46:44 -0300
Subject: Initializing an attribute that needs the object
In-Reply-To: <4480CC87.8050006@lexicon.net>
References: <mailman.6477.1149282932.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<4480be5b$0$27367$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
	<mailman.6483.1149290231.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<4480CC87.8050006@lexicon.net>
Message-ID: <448184B4.7090107@eastlink.ca>

Hi John. Thank you for the tips and the link. This is helpful. Many thanks.

Regards
David


> A new-style class is one which inherits ultimately from the type that is 
> called "object".
> 
> class NewStyleClass(object):
>      pass
> 
> class OldStyleClass():
>      pass
> 
> Docs are a bit ummmm ...
> See this: http://www.python.org/doc/newstyle/
> 
> HTH,
> John
> 


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Sat Jun  3 19:02:58 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 19:02:58 +0200
Subject: Initializing an attribute that needs the object
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6483.1149290231.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6477.1149282932.27775.python-list@python.org>	<4480be5b$0$27367$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
	<mailman.6483.1149290231.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4481912f$0$20730$636a55ce@news.free.fr>

David Pratt a ?crit :
<meta>
David, please, don't top-post (fixed)
</meta>
> 
> Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
> 
(snip)
>>
>> Hint : Python classes are objects too.
>>
>>
>> class Factory(object):
>>    def __init__(self, handler_class):
>>      self.handler = handler_class(self)
>>
>> class SomeHandler(object):
>>    def __init__(self, factory):
>>      self.factory = factory
>>
>> f = Factory(SomeHandler)

> Hi Bruno. This is certainly what I was missing. Thank you. I am afraid I 
> am behind the times with use of object. Will I only use object when I am 
> not subclassing? 

If you subclass from a new-style class (almost all classes in the 
standard lib are...), you don't need to anything more.Else, yes, inherit 
from 'object', or set 'type' as the metaclass. Both classes defined 
below are 'new-style' classes:

class Parrot:
   __metaclass__ = type

class CheeseChop(object):
   pass


And now:

class DeadParrot(Parrot):
   pass

is a new-style class too.


 > Where will I find a document that provides info on the
 > use of object in new style classes?

In the Fine Manual(tm), of course. Googling python.org for "type 
unification" or "new-style" should give relevant answers.


From alet at librelogiciel.com  Fri Jun  2 23:23:53 2006
From: alet at librelogiciel.com (Jerome Alet)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 23:23:53 +0200
Subject: [ANN] pkipplib v0.04 is out
Message-ID: <mailman.6495.1149339330.27775.python-announce-list@python.org>

Hi there,

I'm pleased to announce pkipplib v0.04

This GPLed Python library allows you to create, manage or parse IPP
(Internet Printing Protocol) requests.

In addition, it exposes a CUPS() class which allows one to interact with a
CUPS print server (or an IPP printer).

Written in pure Python, there's no need to link with the CUPS' libraries,
and it doesn't even require any CUPS related software to work.

The mid to long term goal is to support all of the CUPS' IPP API.

Summary of changes :

  - Support for HTTP Basic authentication when connecting to a CUPS
  server was added.

  - General reliability was improved.

To learn more about it, see examples of use, or download it :

	http://www.pykota.com/software/pkipplib/

Thank you for reading.

Jerome Alet



From alet at librelogiciel.com  Fri Jun  2 23:30:17 2006
From: alet at librelogiciel.com (Jerome Alet)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 23:30:17 +0200
Subject: [ANN] pkipplib v0.04 is out
Message-ID: <pan.2006.06.02.21.30.17.485962@librelogiciel.com>

Hi there,

I'm pleased to announce pkipplib v0.04

This GPLed Python library allows you to create, manage or parse IPP
(Internet Printing Protocol) requests.

In addition, it exposes a CUPS() class which allows one to interact with a
CUPS print server (or an IPP printer).

Written in pure Python, there's no need to link with the CUPS' libraries,
and it doesn't even require any CUPS related software to work.

The mid to long term goal is to support all of the CUPS' IPP API.

Summary of changes :

  - Support for HTTP Basic authentication when connecting to a CUPS server
  was added.

  - General reliability was improved.

To learn more about it, see examples of use, or download it :

	http://www.pykota.com/software/pkipplib/

Thank you for reading.

Jerome Alet


From victimorcrime at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  3 00:41:53 2006
From: victimorcrime at yahoo.com (RJ)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 18:41:53 -0400
Subject: beginner code problem
Message-ID: <2006060218415316807-victimorcrime@yahoocom>

  I'm trying to teach myself Python (probably running into the old dog 
new tricks issue) and I'm trying to start with the very basics to get a 
handle on them.

  I'm trying to write code to get the computer to flip a coin 100 times 
and give me the output of how many times heads and tails. After solving 
a few syntax errors I seem to be stuck in an endless loop and have to 
kill python. A few times I would get it to print 'heads 0 (or 1) times 
and tails 1 (or 0) times' 100 times.

Here's the code I wrote:

import random

flip = random.randrange(2)
heads = 0
tails = 0
count = 0

while count < 100:

	if flip == 0:
		heads += 1
	
	else:
		tails += 1
	

	count += 1
	
	

print "The coin landed on heads", heads, 'times ' \
         "and tails", tails, 'times'



From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Sat Jun  3 01:25:28 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 09:25:28 +1000
Subject: beginner code problem
In-Reply-To: <2006060218415316807-victimorcrime@yahoocom>
References: <2006060218415316807-victimorcrime@yahoocom>
Message-ID: <4480C8E8.50800@lexicon.net>

On 3/06/2006 8:41 AM, RJ wrote:
>  I'm trying to teach myself Python (probably running into the old dog 
> new tricks issue) and I'm trying to start with the very basics to get a 
> handle on them.
> 
>  I'm trying to write code to get the computer to flip a coin 100 times 
> and give me the output of how many times heads and tails. After solving 
> a few syntax errors I seem to be stuck in an endless loop and have to 
> kill python.

This can't happen with the code that you posted. It *could* happen if 
the statement count += 1 was not being executed once each time around 
the while loop -- like if it was *not* indented.

# Bad code #1
import random
flip = random.randrange(2)
heads = tails = count = 0
while count < 100:
     if flip == 0:
         heads += 1
     else:
         tails += 1
count += 1
print "The coin landed on heads", heads, 'times ' \
	"and tails", tails, 'times'

> A few times I would get it to print 'heads 0 (or 1) times 
> and tails 1 (or 0) times' 100 times.

Again, can't happen with the code you have posted. If it is printing 100 
times, that would be because you have indented the print statement so 
that it is being executed once each trip around the loop.

# Bad code #2
import random
flip = random.randrange(2)
heads = tails = count = 0
while count < 100:
     if flip == 0:
         heads += 1
     else:
         tails += 1
     count += 1
     print "The coin landed on heads", heads, 'times ' \
         "and tails", tails, 'times'

> 
> Here's the code I wrote:
> 
> import random
> 
> flip = random.randrange(2)
> heads = 0
> tails = 0
> count = 0
> 
> while count < 100:

To help you see what is happening, insert a print statement here; e.g.:
     print flip, count, heads, tails
> 
>     if flip == 0:
>         heads += 1
>     
>     else:
>         tails += 1
>     
> 
>     count += 1
>     
>     
> 
> print "The coin landed on heads", heads, 'times ' \
>         "and tails", tails, 'times'
> 

The code that you posted sets flip only once i.e. only 1 toss, not 100. 
If it is 0, you get 100 heads and 0 tails. Otherwise you get 0 heads and 
100 tails. You need to get a new value for flip each trip.

# Not quite so bad code
import random
heads = tails = count = 0
while count < 100:
     flip = random.randrange(2)
     # print flip, count, heads, tails # un-comment as/when required :-)
     if flip == 0:
         heads += 1
     else:
         tails += 1
     count += 1
print "The coin landed on heads", heads, 'times ' \
     "and tails", tails, 'times'

HTH,
John


From prophet621 at cox.net  Sat Jun  3 02:09:30 2006
From: prophet621 at cox.net (Rob Johnson)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 20:09:30 -0400
Subject: beginner code problem
References: <2006060218415316807-victimorcrime@yahoocom>
	<4480C8E8.50800@lexicon.net>
Message-ID: <2006060220093075249-prophet621@coxnet>

On 2006-06-02 19:25:28 -0400, John Machin <sjmachin at lexicon.net> said:

> Thanks for the reply John. I seem to be getting all the same problems 
> with your code that I had with mine so it may be an issue with Python 
> on this computer though I haven't had one prior to now. I'm running it 
> on OSX Tiger so I'll give it a shot on my Windows box. With pythons 
> portability I didn't think it would be an issue so didn't mention it in 
> the post.

   The different problems I was having was a result of moving some of 
the code around thinking I had messed up and trying to fix it. The code 
I posted was just running but never stopping to give the the output.

  Thanks for explaining about getting a new value for flip, I wasn't 
positive about that and you really helped clear up any confusion I was 
having.

 Rob

> 
> This can't happen with the code that you posted. It *could* happen if 
> the statement count += 1 was not being executed once each time around 
> the while loop -- like if it was *not* indented.
> 
> # Bad code #1
> import random
> flip = random.randrange(2)
> heads = tails = count = 0
> while count < 100:
>      if flip == 0:
>          heads += 1
>      else:
>          tails += 1
> count += 1
> print "The coin landed on heads", heads, 'times ' \
> 	"and tails", tails, 'times'
> 
>> A few times I would get it to print 'heads 0 (or 1) times and tails 1 
>> (or 0) times' 100 times.
> 
> Again, can't happen with the code you have posted. If it is printing 
> 100 times, that would be because you have indented the print statement 
> so that it is being executed once each trip around the loop.
> 
> # Bad code #2
> import random
> flip = random.randrange(2)
> heads = tails = count = 0
> while count < 100:
>      if flip == 0:
>          heads += 1
>      else:
>          tails += 1
>      count += 1
>      print "The coin landed on heads", heads, 'times ' \
>          "and tails", tails, 'times'
> 
>> 
>> Here's the code I wrote:
>> 
>> import random
>> 
>> flip = random.randrange(2)
>> heads = 0
>> tails = 0
>> count = 0
>> 
>> while count < 100:
> 
> To help you see what is happening, insert a print statement here; e.g.:
>      print flip, count, heads, tails
>> 
>>     if flip == 0:
>>         heads += 1
>>         else:
>>         tails += 1
>> 
>>     count += 1
>> 
>> print "The coin landed on heads", heads, 'times ' \
>>         "and tails", tails, 'times'
>> 
> 
> The code that you posted sets flip only once i.e. only 1 toss, not 100. 
> If it is 0, you get 100 heads and 0 tails. Otherwise you get 0 heads 
> and 100 tails. You need to get a new value for flip each trip.
> 
> # Not quite so bad code
> import random
> heads = tails = count = 0
> while count < 100:
>      flip = random.randrange(2)
>      # print flip, count, heads, tails # un-comment as/when required :-)
>      if flip == 0:
>          heads += 1
>      else:
>          tails += 1
>      count += 1
> print "The coin landed on heads", heads, 'times ' \
>      "and tails", tails, 'times'
> 
> HTH,
> John




From uval at rz.uni-karlsruhe.de  Sat Jun  3 01:35:09 2006
From: uval at rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sch=FCle_Daniel?=)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 01:35:09 +0200
Subject: beginner code problem
In-Reply-To: <2006060218415316807-victimorcrime@yahoocom>
References: <2006060218415316807-victimorcrime@yahoocom>
Message-ID: <e5qhvg$8hc$1@news2.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>

Hello

> Here's the code I wrote:
> 
> import random
> 
> flip = random.randrange(2)
> heads = 0
> tails = 0
> count = 0
> 
> while count < 100:
> 
>     if flip == 0:

flip never changes again
it's not reassigned in the while loop

>         heads += 1
>     
>     else:
>         tails += 1
>     
> 
>     count += 1
>     
>     
> 
> print "The coin landed on heads", heads, 'times ' \
>         "and tails", tails, 'times'
> 


in case you know how many times to iterate
it's better to use for loop (in python and eq C also)

from random import randrange as flip
result = [0,0]
for i in range(100):
	result[flip(2)] += 1

or

from random import randrange as flip
result = {"head":0,
	  "tail":0}
for i in range(100):
	result[["head","tail"]flip(2)] += 1

or

 >>> class Coin:
...     def flip(self):
...             import random
...             return ("head", "tail")[random.randrange(2)]
c = Coin()
result = {"head":0,"tail":0}
for i in range(100):
	result[c.flip()] += 1

or many many more
the important thing is .. to know what is the
most suitable data representation for you

is it throw-away-code or is this going to be read
by other people .. etc

hth, Daniel


From asma61 at dsl.pipex.com  Sat Jun  3 01:56:06 2006
From: asma61 at dsl.pipex.com (DaveM)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 00:56:06 +0100
Subject: beginner code problem
References: <2006060218415316807-victimorcrime@yahoocom>
Message-ID: <bli182hrm7f97fus6u4274eqghtun9tl4o@4ax.com>

On Fri, 2 Jun 2006 18:41:53 -0400, RJ <victimorcrime at yahoo.com> wrote:

>  I'm trying to teach myself Python (probably running into the old dog 
>new tricks issue) and I'm trying to start with the very basics to get a 
>handle on them.
>
>  I'm trying to write code to get the computer to flip a coin 100 times 
>and give me the output of how many times heads and tails. After solving 
>a few syntax errors I seem to be stuck in an endless loop and have to 
>kill python. A few times I would get it to print 'heads 0 (or 1) times 
>and tails 1 (or 0) times' 100 times.
>
>Here's the code I wrote:
>
>import random
>
>flip = random.randrange(2)
>heads = 0
>tails = 0
>count = 0
>
>while count < 100:
>
>	if flip == 0:
>		heads += 1
>	
>	else:
>		tails += 1
>	
>
>	count += 1
>	
>	
>
>print "The coin landed on heads", heads, 'times ' \
>         "and tails", tails, 'times'

Several problems here. "flip" is defined just once, so you'll either have
100 heads or tails and your whitespace is all wrong - that's important in
Python. Here's how it should look:

import random

def coinflip():
    heads = 0
    tails = 0
    for goes in range(100):
        if random.randrange(2) == 1:
            heads += 1
        else:
            tails += 1
    print "heads", heads
    print "tails", tails

if __name__ == "__main__":
    coinflip()



From reply.in.the.newsgroup at my.address.is.invalid  Sat Jun  3 03:03:02 2006
From: reply.in.the.newsgroup at my.address.is.invalid (Rene Pijlman)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:03:02 +0200
Subject: beginner code problem
References: <2006060218415316807-victimorcrime@yahoocom>
Message-ID: <8on182l21bp9fg8omqiq68vddhc42j87d5@4ax.com>

RJ:
>import random
>flip = random.randrange(2)
>heads = 0
>tails = 0
>count = 0
>while count < 100:
>	if flip == 0:
>		heads += 1
>	else:
>		tails += 1
>	count += 1

Since flip isn't changed in the loop, this is going to report 100 heads or
100 tails, depending on the zeroness of flip.

-- 
Ren? Pijlman


From victimorcrime at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  3 04:32:13 2006
From: victimorcrime at yahoo.com (RJ)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 22:32:13 -0400
Subject: beginner code problem
References: <2006060218415316807-victimorcrime@yahoocom>
Message-ID: <1js1821c2hlj77132f758pv371ttb0o3a4@4ax.com>

  Thanks for all the help and examples. As I mentioned, I'm trying to
teach myself and starting with the basics (if, elif, else, while, for,
raw_input, int are about all I know so far and don't know that well
yet) Some of the example posted are still beyond my understanding but
it's good to see other ways of acheiving the result and other things
to look up and read about. 

  I've read a bit about Python but only really started trying
yesterday. Right now I'm still strugling but with practice I hope for
it to come easier and I'll keep learning more syntax.

  I didn't even think about random.randrange being out of the loop but
it makes sence now. Chalk it up to a newbie mistake and a learning
experience.

  I really do appreciate the help and I'm sure this is only the first
of many questions I'll have. It's good to know that there are others
who can help me understand my mistakes.

  Rob


From dodgyville at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 01:51:02 2006
From: dodgyville at gmail.com (Luke Miller)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:51:02 +1000
Subject: Seg fault in python extension module
Message-ID: <e82307780606021651v3dabf941kfef56588e4dafbaf@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am working on my first python module based on a c program. The
module builds and installs OK using dist-utils, and imports fine into
python. However, when I try and use the one wrapper
("modgl.glVertex4f(1, 2, 3, 1)") in the module, it seg faults.

Can anyone spot why this isn't working, or recommend a way to debug
these things.

Thanks,
Luke

#include <Python.h>

static PyObject *_wrap_glVertex4f(PyObject *self, PyObject *args) {
    PyObject *resultobj = NULL;
    float arg1 ;
    float arg2 ;
    float arg3 ;
    float arg4 ;
    PyObject * obj0 = 0 ;
    PyObject * obj1 = 0 ;
    PyObject * obj2 = 0 ;
    PyObject * obj3 = 0 ;

    if(!PyArg_ParseTuple(args,(char
*)"OOOO:glVertex4f",&obj0,&obj1,&obj2,&obj3)) goto fail;
    {
        arg1 = (float)(PyFloat_AsDouble(obj0));
    }
    {
        arg2 = (float)(PyFloat_AsDouble(obj1));
    }
    {
        arg3 = (float)(PyFloat_AsDouble(obj2));
    }
    {
        arg4 = (float)(PyFloat_AsDouble(obj3));
    }
    glVertex4f(arg1,arg2,arg3,arg4);

    Py_INCREF(Py_None); resultobj = Py_None;
    return resultobj;
    fail:
    return NULL;
};


static PyMethodDef modglMethods[] = {
	 { (char *)"glVertex4f", _wrap_glVertex4f, METH_VARARGS, NULL},
	 { NULL, NULL, 0, NULL }
};


PyMODINIT_FUNC modgl(void)
{
    (void) Py_InitModule("modgl", modglMethods);
};


int
main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
    /* Pass argv[0] to the Python interpreter */
    Py_SetProgramName(argv[0]);

    /* Initialize the Python interpreter.  Required. */
    Py_Initialize();

    /* Add a static module */
    initmodgl();
	return 0;
};


From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Sat Jun  3 04:12:20 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 12:12:20 +1000
Subject: Seg fault in python extension module
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6484.1149292266.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6484.1149292266.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4480F004.7000602@lexicon.net>

On 3/06/2006 9:51 AM, Luke Miller wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I am working on my first python module based on a c program. The
> module builds and installs OK using dist-utils, and imports fine into
> python. However, when I try and use the one wrapper
> ("modgl.glVertex4f(1, 2, 3, 1)") in the module, it seg faults.
> 
> Can anyone spot why this isn't working, or recommend a way to debug
> these things.
> 

> Thanks,
> Luke
> 
> #include <Python.h>
> 
> static PyObject *_wrap_glVertex4f(PyObject *self, PyObject *args) {
>    PyObject *resultobj = NULL;
>    float arg1 ;
>    float arg2 ;
>    float arg3 ;
>    float arg4 ;
>    PyObject * obj0 = 0 ;
>    PyObject * obj1 = 0 ;
>    PyObject * obj2 = 0 ;
>    PyObject * obj3 = 0 ;
> 
>    if(!PyArg_ParseTuple(args,(char
> *)"OOOO:glVertex4f",&obj0,&obj1,&obj2,&obj3)) goto fail;
>    {
>        arg1 = (float)(PyFloat_AsDouble(obj0));

Not testing for an error after an API call is just asking for trouble.


>    }
>    {
>        arg2 = (float)(PyFloat_AsDouble(obj1));
>    }
>    {
>        arg3 = (float)(PyFloat_AsDouble(obj2));
>    }
>    {
>        arg4 = (float)(PyFloat_AsDouble(obj3));
>    }


You are making it really hard for yourself. Try this:
  if(!PyArg_ParseTuple(args,"ffff:glVertex4f",&arg1,&arg2 etc etc

The batteries are already included. Using the code for the precise type 
that you want gives you checking for type mismatches, a with sensible 
error message.


>    glVertex4f(arg1,arg2,arg3,arg4);

You don't declare this function before calling it. That's dangerous.

> 
>    Py_INCREF(Py_None); resultobj = Py_None;
>    return resultobj;
>    fail:
>    return NULL;
> };
> 
> 
> static PyMethodDef modglMethods[] = {
>      { (char *)"glVertex4f", _wrap_glVertex4f, METH_VARARGS, NULL},
>      { NULL, NULL, 0, NULL }
> };
> 
> 
> PyMODINIT_FUNC modgl(void)

I can't see how you were able to import the module. For "import modgl" 
to work, your initialisation function should be called "initmodgl".

> {
>    (void) Py_InitModule("modgl", modglMethods);
> };
> 
> 

You are writing an extension, not embedding Python. You don't need a 
main(). Lose it.

> int
> main(int argc, char *argv[])
> {
>    /* Pass argv[0] to the Python interpreter */
>    Py_SetProgramName(argv[0]);
> 
>    /* Initialize the Python interpreter.  Required. */
>    Py_Initialize();
> 
>    /* Add a static module */
>    initmodgl();
>     return 0;
> };

Below is a cutdown version of your module, that returns a value so that 
you can see that it is working. You might like to use that as a base. 
Here it is working:

|>>> import modgl
|>>> modgl.glVertex4f(1, 2, 3, 4)
10.0
|>>> modgl.glVertex4f(1, 2, "three", 4)
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
TypeError: a float is required
|>>>

HTH,
John



8<---
#include <Python.h>

static PyObject *
_wrap_glVertex4f(PyObject *self, PyObject *args) {
     PyObject *resultobj = NULL;
     float arg1, arg2, arg3, arg4;

 
if(!PyArg_ParseTuple(args,"ffff:glVertex4f",&arg1,&arg2,&arg3,&arg4)) 
goto fail;
     /* glVertex4f(arg1,arg2,arg3,arg4); */

     /* Py_INCREF(Py_None); resultobj = Py_None; */

     resultobj = Py_BuildValue("d", (double)(arg1 + arg2 + arg3 + arg4));

     return resultobj;
     fail:
     return NULL;

};

static PyMethodDef modglMethods[] = {
          { (char *)"glVertex4f", _wrap_glVertex4f, METH_VARARGS, NULL},
          { NULL, NULL, 0, NULL }
};

PyMODINIT_FUNC
initmodgl(void)
{
     (void) Py_InitModule("modgl", modglMethods);
};
8<---


From samschul at pacbell.net  Sat Jun  3 05:38:41 2006
From: samschul at pacbell.net (sam)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 20:38:41 -0700
Subject: Seg fault in python extension module
References: <mailman.6484.1149292266.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<4480F004.7000602@lexicon.net>
Message-ID: <1149305921.145967.248740@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

I recommend that you also replace the NULL after the METH_VARARGS with
a valid documentations string such as:

static PyMethodDef modglMethods[] =
       {
         { (char *)"glVertex4f", _wrap_glVertex4f, METH_VARARGS, "My
Doc String"},
         { NULL, NULL, 0, NULL }

      };

Sam Schulenburg



From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Sat Jun  3 05:56:35 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 13:56:35 +1000
Subject: Seg fault in python extension module
In-Reply-To: <1149305921.145967.248740@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.6484.1149292266.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<4480F004.7000602@lexicon.net>
	<1149305921.145967.248740@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <44810873.3050200@lexicon.net>

On 3/06/2006 1:38 PM, sam wrote:
> I recommend that you also replace the NULL after the METH_VARARGS with
> a valid documentations string such as:
> 
> static PyMethodDef modglMethods[] =
>        {
>          { (char *)"glVertex4f", _wrap_glVertex4f, METH_VARARGS, "My
> Doc String"},
>          { NULL, NULL, 0, NULL }
> 
>       };
> 

Lack of one is unlikely to have anything to do with the OP's segfault.

|>>> repr(modgl.glVertex4f.__doc__)
'None'
|>>>

As to style, etiquette, and good citizenship in module extension 
writing, it might be better to give him some references, rather than 
mention just one point.

Cheers,
John


From samschul at pacbell.net  Sat Jun  3 06:40:55 2006
From: samschul at pacbell.net (sam)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 21:40:55 -0700
Subject: Seg fault in python extension module
In-Reply-To: <44810873.3050200@lexicon.net>
References: <mailman.6484.1149292266.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<4480F004.7000602@lexicon.net>
	<1149305921.145967.248740@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<44810873.3050200@lexicon.net>
Message-ID: <1149309655.287866.10380@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Sorry, From MethodObject.h the 4th parameter is usually documented as
having a NULL, but is intended to be used for a documentation string
that will be available to the user under the various GUI IDE's such as
IDLE or PyWin32. I just wanted to point that out..

struct PyMethodDef {
    const char	*ml_name;	/* The name of the built-in function/method */
    PyCFunction  ml_meth;	/* The C function that implements it */
    int		 ml_flags;	/* Combination of METH_xxx flags, which mostly
				   describe the args expected by the C func */
    const char	*ml_doc;	/* The __doc__ attribute, or NULL */
};

Sam Schulenburg

John Machin wrote:
> On 3/06/2006 1:38 PM, sam wrote:
> > I recommend that you also replace the NULL after the METH_VARARGS with
> > a valid documentations string such as:
> >
> > static PyMethodDef modglMethods[] =
> >        {
> >          { (char *)"glVertex4f", _wrap_glVertex4f, METH_VARARGS, "My
> > Doc String"},
> >          { NULL, NULL, 0, NULL }
> >
> >       };
> >
>
> Lack of one is unlikely to have anything to do with the OP's segfault.
>
> |>>> repr(modgl.glVertex4f.__doc__)
> 'None'
> |>>>
>
> As to style, etiquette, and good citizenship in module extension
> writing, it might be better to give him some references, rather than
> mention just one point.
> 
> Cheers,
> John



From faulkner612 at comcast.net  Sat Jun  3 02:09:24 2006
From: faulkner612 at comcast.net (faulkner)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 17:09:24 -0700
Subject: do you have a local copy of Lython?
Message-ID: <1149293364.597445.302600@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

# Lython = Miles Egan's Lisp->Python compiler.
The usual place
<URL:http://www.caddr.com/code/lython/>
throws a 404, and when I tried the email address in whois
<mailto:miles at caddr.com>
the server threw an error.
I've asked around on a few forums, and somebody on irc.efnet.org/python
suggested posting here.
If you have a saved copy, please email it to me or link me to a working
download.
Thanks for your time,
faulkner



From gh at ghaering.de  Sat Jun  3 02:34:31 2006
From: gh at ghaering.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gerhard_H=E4ring?=)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 02:34:31 +0200
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] pyPgSQL 2.5 released
Message-ID: <4480D917.7010405@ghaering.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello,

the last pyPgSQL release was in July 2003. Now, after a much too long time
I went through all items in the bugtracker and created a release.

pyPgSQL is a Python database adapter for PostgreSQL databases. Its homepage
is at http://pypgsql.sf.net/.

Downloads are available here:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=16528&package_id=20458&release_id=421992

There is a source package and Windows binaries for Python 2.4. The Windows
binaries are dynamically linked this time, so you will need a PostgreSQL
client library installation to make sure the DLLs are found. It's probably
easiest to just include the PostgreSQL bin and lib directory in your PATH.

Attached is a ChangeLog.

- -- Gerhard
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iD8DBQFEgNkXdIO4ozGCH14RAgqlAJ9nNNGM1cTzMK804tV3ItOlDBcuBQCfYvQR
GFaIhZnChH8ORdW7qMHKJMA=
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From micklee74 at hotmail.com  Sat Jun  3 03:30:30 2006
From: micklee74 at hotmail.com (micklee74 at hotmail.com)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 18:30:30 -0700
Subject: check for dictionary keys
Message-ID: <1149298230.864123.8320@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>

hi
in my code, i use dict(a) to make to "a" into a dictionary , "a" comes
from user input, so my program does not know in the first place. Then
say , it becomes

a = { '-A' : 'value1' , '-B' : "value2" , "-C" : "value3" , '-D' :
'value4' }

somewhere next in my code, i will check for these..:

1)  -A and -B cannot exist together
2) -A and -C cannot exist together
3) -A and -B and -D cannot exist together
4) and lots of other combinations to check for....

how can i efficiently check for the above? At first as i do simple
checks , i use if and else.
But as i began to check for more combinatoiuns, it gets messy....

thanks.



From faulkner612 at comcast.net  Sat Jun  3 03:43:03 2006
From: faulkner612 at comcast.net (faulkner)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 18:43:03 -0700
Subject: check for dictionary keys
In-Reply-To: <1149298230.864123.8320@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149298230.864123.8320@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149298983.720797.8460@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

def all(s):
    for x in s:
        if not x: return False
    return True


bad_combos = [['-A', '-B'], ['-A', '-C'], ...]
for bad_combo in bad_combos:
    assert not all([bad_elem in a for bad_elem in bad_combo])

micklee74 at hotmail.com wrote:
> hi
> in my code, i use dict(a) to make to "a" into a dictionary , "a" comes
> from user input, so my program does not know in the first place. Then
> say , it becomes
>
> a = { '-A' : 'value1' , '-B' : "value2" , "-C" : "value3" , '-D' :
> 'value4' }
>
> somewhere next in my code, i will check for these..:
>
> 1)  -A and -B cannot exist together
> 2) -A and -C cannot exist together
> 3) -A and -B and -D cannot exist together
> 4) and lots of other combinations to check for....
>
> how can i efficiently check for the above? At first as i do simple
> checks , i use if and else.
> But as i began to check for more combinatoiuns, it gets messy....
> 
> thanks.



From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Mon Jun  5 14:46:33 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:46:33 +0200
Subject: check for dictionary keys
In-Reply-To: <1149298230.864123.8320@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149298230.864123.8320@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4483f80a$0$27349$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

micklee74 at hotmail.com a ?crit :
> hi
> in my code, i use dict(a) to make to "a" into a dictionary , "a" comes
> from user input, so my program does not know in the first place. Then
> say , it becomes
> 
> a = { '-A' : 'value1' , '-B' : "value2" , "-C" : "value3" , '-D' :
> 'value4' }
> 
> somewhere next in my code, i will check for these..:
> 
> 1)  -A and -B cannot exist together
> 2) -A and -C cannot exist together
> 3) -A and -B and -D cannot exist together
> 4) and lots of other combinations to check for....

Looks like an option parser... If so, there's all you need in the 
standard lib (look for the optparse module).

> 
> how can i efficiently check for the above? At first as i do simple
> checks , i use if and else.
> But as i began to check for more combinatoiuns, it gets messy....

First : use boolean logic (truth table, Kernaugh diagram, etc) to 
simplify things. As an example, rule #3 is useless - it's a subset of 
rule #1 (-A and -B and -D implies -A and -B). This should greatly reduce 
the number of needed tests.

Then, write a simple rule system describing either valid inputs or 
invalid inputs (preferably the smallest set !-). FWIW, it can be as 
simple as a list of lambdas/error messages pairs, with lambdas being 
predicate taking dict keys as params:


_RULES = [
   (lambda keys : '-A' in keys and '-B' in keys,
    "can't have both options -A and -B"),
   (lambda keys : '-A' in keys and '-C' in keys,
    "can't have both options -A and -C"),
   # etc...
]

def validate(options, rules):
   keys = options.keys()
   for predicate, message in rules:
     if not predicate(keys):
       raise ValueError(message)


From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Tue Jun  6 03:10:06 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:10:06 +1000
Subject: check for dictionary keys
In-Reply-To: <4483f80a$0$27349$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
References: <1149298230.864123.8320@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<4483f80a$0$27349$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <4484d5ee$1@news.eftel.com>

On 5/06/2006 10:46 PM, Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
> micklee74 at hotmail.com a ?crit :
>> hi
>> in my code, i use dict(a) to make to "a" into a dictionary , "a" comes
>> from user input, so my program does not know in the first place. Then
>> say , it becomes
>>
>> a = { '-A' : 'value1' , '-B' : "value2" , "-C" : "value3" , '-D' :
>> 'value4' }
>>
>> somewhere next in my code, i will check for these..:
>>
>> 1)  -A and -B cannot exist together
>> 2) -A and -C cannot exist together
>> 3) -A and -B and -D cannot exist together
>> 4) and lots of other combinations to check for....
> 
> Looks like an option parser... If so, there's all you need in the 
> standard lib (look for the optparse module).
> 
>>
>> how can i efficiently check for the above? At first as i do simple
>> checks , i use if and else.
>> But as i began to check for more combinatoiuns, it gets messy....
> 
> First : use boolean logic (truth table, Kernaugh diagram, etc) to 
> simplify things. As an example, rule #3 is useless - it's a subset of 
> rule #1 (-A and -B and -D implies -A and -B). This should greatly reduce 
> the number of needed tests.

Good idea, but doesn't scale well. Simple code can weed out redundant 
rules, including any accidental duplicates that may creep into a long 
list. See code listing at end.

> 
> Then, write a simple rule system describing either valid inputs or 
> invalid inputs (preferably the smallest set !-). FWIW, it can be as 
> simple as a list of lambdas/error messages pairs, with lambdas being 
> predicate taking dict keys as params:
> 
> 
> _RULES = [
>   (lambda keys : '-A' in keys and '-B' in keys,
>    "can't have both options -A and -B"),
>   (lambda keys : '-A' in keys and '-C' in keys,
>    "can't have both options -A and -C"),
>   # etc...
> ]
> 

The evil HR director won't let the PHB pay me on a per LOC basis, so 
I've had to come up with a compact table-driven approach :-)

> def validate(options, rules):
>   keys = options.keys()
>   for predicate, message in rules:
>     if not predicate(keys):
>       raise ValueError(message)

Cheers,
John

C:\junk>type option_combos.py
bad_combos = ['ABD', 'AC', 'AB', 'CA']

def rule_compaction(bc_list, verbose=False):
     # The next few lines are admittedly oldfashioned :-)
     bc_sets = [set(x) for x in bc_list]
     deco = [(len(y), y) for y in bc_sets]
     deco.sort()
     bc_sets = [z[1] for z in deco]
     del deco
     if verbose:
         print "bc_sets #1:", bc_sets
     for k in xrange(len(bc_sets)-1, 0, -1):
         candidate = bc_sets[k]
         for ko in bc_sets[:k]:
             if ko <= candidate:
                 if verbose:
                     print candidate, "knocked out by", ko
                 del bc_sets[k]
                 break
     if verbose:
         print "bc_sets #2:", bc_sets
     return bc_sets

option_rules = rule_compaction(bad_combos, verbose=True)

def combo_disallowed_by(opt_set, rules):
     for rule in rules:
         if opt_set >= rule:
             return rule
     return None # redundantly, for emphasis

if __name__ == "__main__":
     import sys
     for opt_string in sys.argv[1:]:
         failer = combo_disallowed_by(set(opt_string), option_rules)
         if failer:
             print repr(opt_string), "disallowed by", failer
         else:
             print repr(opt_string), "is OK"

=== a test ===

C:\junk>option_combos.py A AB AC AD BC ABD ABX XBA BX
bc_sets #1: [set(['A', 'C']), set(['A', 'B']), set(['A', 'C']), 
set(['A', 'B', 'D'])]
set(['A', 'B', 'D']) knocked out by set(['A', 'B'])
set(['A', 'C']) knocked out by set(['A', 'C'])
bc_sets #2: [set(['A', 'C']), set(['A', 'B'])]
'A' is OK
'AB' disallowed by set(['A', 'B'])
'AC' disallowed by set(['A', 'C'])
'AD' is OK
'BC' is OK
'ABD' disallowed by set(['A', 'B'])
'ABX' disallowed by set(['A', 'B'])
'XBA' disallowed by set(['A', 'B'])
'BX' is OK

=== the end ===


From onurb at xiludom.gro  Tue Jun  6 12:38:36 2006
From: onurb at xiludom.gro (bruno at modulix)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:38:36 +0200
Subject: check for dictionary keys
In-Reply-To: <4484d5ee$1@news.eftel.com>
References: <1149298230.864123.8320@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<4483f80a$0$27349$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
	<4484d5ee$1@news.eftel.com>
Message-ID: <44855b2c$0$10988$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

John Machin wrote:
> On 5/06/2006 10:46 PM, Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
> 
>> micklee74 at hotmail.com a ?crit :
>>
>>> hi
>>> in my code, i use dict(a) to make to "a" into a dictionary , "a" comes
>>> from user input, so my program does not know in the first place. Then
>>> say , it becomes
>>>
>>> a = { '-A' : 'value1' , '-B' : "value2" , "-C" : "value3" , '-D' :
>>> 'value4' }
>>>
>>> somewhere next in my code, i will check for these..:
>>>
>>> 1)  -A and -B cannot exist together
>>> 2) -A and -C cannot exist together
>>> 3) -A and -B and -D cannot exist together
>>> 4) and lots of other combinations to check for....
>>
>>
>> Looks like an option parser... If so, there's all you need in the
>> standard lib (look for the optparse module).
>>
>>>
>>> how can i efficiently check for the above? At first as i do simple
>>> checks , i use if and else.
>>> But as i began to check for more combinatoiuns, it gets messy....
>>
>>
>> First : use boolean logic (truth table, Kernaugh diagram, etc) to
>> simplify things. As an example, rule #3 is useless - it's a subset of
>> rule #1 (-A and -B and -D implies -A and -B). This should greatly
>> reduce the number of needed tests.
> 
> 
> Good idea, but doesn't scale well.

Does it need to scale ? If there are lot of rules and frequently
changing, yes, automating the process will be a good idea - but if it's
about a program options, just using one's brain might be enough. At
least it forces one to think about what's going on...

> Simple code can weed out redundant
> rules,

Simple code can weed out redundant *simple* rules !-)

(snip)

>> Then, write a simple rule system describing either valid inputs or
>> invalid inputs (preferably the smallest set !-). FWIW, it can be as
>> simple as a list of lambdas/error messages pairs, with lambdas being
>> predicate taking dict keys as params:
>>
>>
>> _RULES = [
>>   (lambda keys : '-A' in keys and '-B' in keys,
>>    "can't have both options -A and -B"),
>>   (lambda keys : '-A' in keys and '-C' in keys,
>>    "can't have both options -A and -C"),
>>   # etc...
>> ]
>>
> 
> The evil HR director won't let the PHB pay me on a per LOC basis, so
> I've had to come up with a compact table-driven approach :-)

<ot>I'm my own evil HR director and PHB  !-)</ot>

Don't like table-driven programming, John ?

This solution takes very few lines, and while it's surely not a
full-blown rule engine, it's at least reasonably flexible.

(Not to say it's better than yours - it's of course a matter of
effective use case).

>> def validate(options, rules):
>>   keys = options.keys()
>>   for predicate, message in rules:
>>     if not predicate(keys):
>>       raise ValueError(message)
> 
> 
> 
> C:\junk>type option_combos.py
> bad_combos = ['ABD', 'AC', 'AB', 'CA']
> 
> def rule_compaction(bc_list, verbose=False):
>     # The next few lines are admittedly oldfashioned :-)
>     bc_sets = [set(x) for x in bc_list]
>     deco = [(len(y), y) for y in bc_sets]
>     deco.sort()
>     bc_sets = [z[1] for z in deco]
>     del deco
>     if verbose:
>         print "bc_sets #1:", bc_sets
>     for k in xrange(len(bc_sets)-1, 0, -1):
>         candidate = bc_sets[k]
>         for ko in bc_sets[:k]:
>             if ko <= candidate:
>                 if verbose:
>                     print candidate, "knocked out by", ko
>                 del bc_sets[k]
>                 break
>     if verbose:
>         print "bc_sets #2:", bc_sets
>     return bc_sets
> 

Nice code - but how does it handle more complex predicates ? Seems you
can only deal with 'and' rules here. <nitpick>"Doesn't scale well", you
said ?-)</nitpick>

(snip)
-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb at xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"


From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Tue Jun  6 13:27:53 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 21:27:53 +1000
Subject: check for dictionary keys
In-Reply-To: <44855b2c$0$10988$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
References: <1149298230.864123.8320@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<4483f80a$0$27349$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
	<4484d5ee$1@news.eftel.com>
	<44855b2c$0$10988$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <448566b9@news.eftel.com>

On 6/06/2006 8:38 PM, bruno at modulix wrote:
> John Machin wrote:
>> On 5/06/2006 10:46 PM, Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
>>
>>> micklee74 at hotmail.com a ?crit :
>>>
>>>> hi
>>>> in my code, i use dict(a) to make to "a" into a dictionary , "a" comes
>>>> from user input, so my program does not know in the first place. Then
>>>> say , it becomes
>>>>
>>>> a = { '-A' : 'value1' , '-B' : "value2" , "-C" : "value3" , '-D' :
>>>> 'value4' }
>>>>
>>>> somewhere next in my code, i will check for these..:
>>>>
>>>> 1)  -A and -B cannot exist together
>>>> 2) -A and -C cannot exist together
>>>> 3) -A and -B and -D cannot exist together
>>>> 4) and lots of other combinations to check for....
>>>
>>> Looks like an option parser... If so, there's all you need in the
>>> standard lib (look for the optparse module).
>>>
>>>> how can i efficiently check for the above? At first as i do simple
>>>> checks , i use if and else.
>>>> But as i began to check for more combinatoiuns, it gets messy....
>>>
>>> First : use boolean logic (truth table, Kernaugh diagram, etc) to
>>> simplify things. As an example, rule #3 is useless - it's a subset of
>>> rule #1 (-A and -B and -D implies -A and -B). This should greatly
>>> reduce the number of needed tests.
>>
>> Good idea, but doesn't scale well.
> 
> Does it need to scale ? If there are lot of rules and frequently
> changing, yes, automating the process will be a good idea - but if it's
> about a program options, just using one's brain might be enough. At
> least it forces one to think about what's going on...
> 
>> Simple code can weed out redundant
>> rules,
> 
> Simple code can weed out redundant *simple* rules !-)
> 
> (snip)
> 
>>> Then, write a simple rule system describing either valid inputs or
>>> invalid inputs (preferably the smallest set !-). FWIW, it can be as
>>> simple as a list of lambdas/error messages pairs, with lambdas being
>>> predicate taking dict keys as params:
>>>
>>>
>>> _RULES = [
>>>   (lambda keys : '-A' in keys and '-B' in keys,
>>>    "can't have both options -A and -B"),
>>>   (lambda keys : '-A' in keys and '-C' in keys,
>>>    "can't have both options -A and -C"),
>>>   # etc...
>>> ]
>>>
>> The evil HR director won't let the PHB pay me on a per LOC basis, so
>> I've had to come up with a compact table-driven approach :-)
> 
> <ot>I'm my own evil HR director and PHB  !-)</ot>

<ot> You must have some interesting conversations with yourself !-) </ot>

> 
> Don't like table-driven programming, John ?

I love table-driven programming. You seem to misunderstand; In this case 
the "bad combos" list *is* the table.

> 
> This solution takes very few lines, and while it's surely not a
> full-blown rule engine, it's at least reasonably flexible.
> 
> (Not to say it's better than yours - it's of course a matter of
> effective use case).
> 
[snip]
> 
> Nice code - but how does it handle more complex predicates ? Seems you
> can only deal with 'and' rules here.

More complex predicates are not in the OP's spec ... this is a defence I 
learned from somebody in this newsgroup recently :-)

> <nitpick>"Doesn't scale well", you
> said ?-)</nitpick>

I understand 'scale' to relate to size, not to complexity.

Cheers,
John


From alikakakhel at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  3 05:40:00 2006
From: alikakakhel at yahoo.com (greenflame)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 20:40:00 -0700
Subject: how to erase a variable
Message-ID: <1149306000.615590.30020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Is there a way to get rid of a variable as though it never existed? I
know this sounds very basic but I have not come across any such
methods. Also is the fact that I will have a bunch of extra variables
just haning around because my use for them is over a bad thing? I will
likely have on the order of 10 to 50 or so of these for the particular
program I an working on at the moment.



From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Sat Jun  3 05:44:11 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: 2 Jun 2006 20:44:11 -0700
Subject: how to erase a variable
In-Reply-To: <1149306000.615590.30020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149306000.615590.30020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149306251.073558.274980@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


greenflame wrote:
> Is there a way to get rid of a variable as though it never existed? I
> know this sounds very basic but I have not come across any such
> methods. Also is the fact that I will have a bunch of extra variables
> just haning around because my use for them is over a bad thing? I will
> likely have on the order of 10 to 50 or so of these for the particular
> program I an working on at the moment.

del rubbish, garbage, junk, unwanted_stuff



From bignose+hates-spam at benfinney.id.au  Sat Jun  3 06:59:15 2006
From: bignose+hates-spam at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:59:15 +1000
Subject: how to erase a variable
References: <1149306000.615590.30020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <87k67yygv0.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

"greenflame" <alikakakhel at yahoo.com> writes:

> Is there a way to get rid of a variable as though it never existed? I
> know this sounds very basic but I have not come across any such
> methods.

You can use the 'del' statement to delete a name.

> Also is the fact that I will have a bunch of extra variables just
> haning around because my use for them is over a bad thing? I will
> likely have on the order of 10 to 50 or so of these for the
> particular program I an working on at the moment.

It doesn't cause the computer any grief to have extra objects; they'll
eventually be cleaned up by garbage collection anyway.

That said, it sounds like your program is not modular enough, which is
a burden on the *programmer* to need to keep so many items in their
head at once. It's far better to divide your program into discrete
functional units, and write each conceptual step as a function.

By dividing your program into functional modules (whether they be
functions, classes with methods, or separate program modules) each
unit of functionality has a limited scope, and the variables are local
and get cleaned up after the function ends. This greatly aids the
person reading the program: they have fewer things to concentrate on
at any point in your program.

-- 
 \     "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, |
  `\                            neat, and wrong."  -- Henry L. Mencken |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From alikakakhel at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  3 23:14:36 2006
From: alikakakhel at yahoo.com (greenflame)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 14:14:36 -0700
Subject: how to erase a variable
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6487.1149310768.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <1149306000.615590.30020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6487.1149310768.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149369276.885120.230110@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Ok thanks all!



From klaus at seistrup.dk  Sat Jun  3 10:36:43 2006
From: klaus at seistrup.dk (Klaus Alexander Seistrup)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 08:36:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Missing unicode data?
Message-ID: <e5rhmr$8af$3@minji.szn.dk>

Hi group,

I just came across the following exception:

#v+

$ python
Python 2.4.2 (#2, Sep 30 2005, 21:19:01)
[GCC 4.0.2 20050808 (prerelease) (Ubuntu 4.0.1-4ubuntu8)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import unicodedata
>>> u'\N{LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL BARRED B}'
UnicodeDecodeError: 'unicodeescape' codec can't decode bytes in position 0-38: unknown Unicode character name
>>> unicodedata.name(u'\u1d03')
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
ValueError: no such name
>>> ^D
$ 

#v-

When checking unicodedata.name() against each uchar in the file 
/usr/share/unidata/UnicodeData-4.0.1d1b.txt that came with the 
console-data package on my Ubuntu Linux installation a total of 
1226 unicode characters seems to be missing from the unicodedata 
module (2477 missing characters when checking against the latest 
database from unicode.org?).  Is this a deliberate omission?

Cheers,
Klaus.

 ?) http://www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt
-- 
Klaus Alexander Seistrup
SubZeroNet, Copenhagen, Denmark
http://magnetic-ink.dk/


From fredrik at pythonware.com  Sat Jun  3 11:16:39 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 11:16:39 +0200
Subject: Missing unicode data?
In-Reply-To: <e5rhmr$8af$3@minji.szn.dk>
References: <e5rhmr$8af$3@minji.szn.dk>
Message-ID: <e5rk1k$tjk$1@sea.gmane.org>

Klaus Alexander Seistrup wrote:

> When checking unicodedata.name() against each uchar in the file 
> /usr/share/unidata/UnicodeData-4.0.1d1b.txt that came with the 
> console-data package on my Ubuntu Linux installation a total of 
> 1226 unicode characters seems to be missing from the unicodedata 
> module (2477 missing characters when checking against the latest 
> database from unicode.org?).  Is this a deliberate omission?

I'm pretty sure unicodename.name() doesn't look in the UnicodeData file 
on your machine, nor in the latest file from unicode.org.  in other 
words, you get whatever version that was used to create the Unicode data 
set in your Python distribution.

this is usually the version that was current when that Python version 
was originally released (i.e. in your case, when 2.4 was released).

iirc, 2.4 uses Unicode 3.2, and 2.5 uses Unicode 4.1.  to update, use 
the tools under Tools/unicode.

</F>



From klaus at seistrup.dk  Sat Jun  3 13:44:55 2006
From: klaus at seistrup.dk (Klaus Alexander Seistrup)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 11:44:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Missing unicode data?
References: <e5rhmr$8af$3@minji.szn.dk>
	<mailman.6490.1149326243.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <e5rsnn$om8$1@minji.szn.dk>

Fredrik Lundh skrev:

> I'm pretty sure unicodename.name() doesn't look in the Unicode-
> Data file on your machine, nor in the latest file from unicode.org.

I am pretty sure of that, too.  I was only using those files as a 
reference against the unicode data that comes with my python interpreter.

> in other words, you get whatever version that was used to create 
> the Unicode data set in your Python distribution.

I see.

> iirc, 2.4 uses Unicode 3.2, and 2.5 uses Unicode 4.1.  to update, 
> use the tools under Tools/unicode.

Thanks for the hint.

Mvh, 

-- 
Klaus Alexander Seistrup
SubZeroNet, Copenhagen, Denmark
http://magnetic-ink.dk/


From iamkey9 at 126.com  Sat Jun  3 11:30:08 2006
From: iamkey9 at 126.com (key9)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 17:30:08 +0800
Subject: can python be a "shell" of c++ program?
Message-ID: <e5rkr7$jqm$1@news.yaako.com>

Hi all

I have some data to process, whith complex mechanism,I put these process 
mechanism as plugins.
and design lots of classes to abstract data themselves.

but the question is how to drive them work together.

That cause too much jobs: I should write UI,parser......almost a completed 
system.

The problem is I don't know what these processed data will finally needed to 
display to user.
maybe this , may be that, these can not know on design time.

what I need is on outside of program,
I can use some interface to get these data what I want , or push back data, 
or told program to recalculate it.


can I have a way to drive c++ code use this script-like way ?


thank you very much



                                                                     key9










From spiralx at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 18:00:58 2006
From: spiralx at gmail.com (James)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 17:00:58 +0100
Subject: can python be a "shell" of c++ program?
In-Reply-To: <e5rkr7$jqm$1@news.yaako.com>
References: <e5rkr7$jqm$1@news.yaako.com>
Message-ID: <7ee3dcd80606030900p7ad62ad0i6e06f9ec1fba2f23@mail.gmail.com>

Yes you can, although it might be a fair bit of work depending on the
complexity of your codebase. Basically you would need to write Python
extensions to expose your C++ classes as Python modules, using SWIG or
the Python extension code in the Boost C++ libraries. You'd then embed
an interpreter in your program which would allow you to use Python
code within it - either from a script or individual commands.

It's a fairly common use of Python :)

James

On 03/06/06, key9 <iamkey9 at 126.com> wrote:
> Hi all
>
> I have some data to process, whith complex mechanism,I put these process
> mechanism as plugins.
> and design lots of classes to abstract data themselves.
>
> but the question is how to drive them work together.
>
> That cause too much jobs: I should write UI,parser......almost a completed
> system.
>
> The problem is I don't know what these processed data will finally needed to
> display to user.
> maybe this , may be that, these can not know on design time.
>
> what I need is on outside of program,
> I can use some interface to get these data what I want , or push back data,
> or told program to recalculate it.
>
>
> can I have a way to drive c++ code use this script-like way ?
>
>
> thank you very much


From tomerfiliba at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 16:10:23 2006
From: tomerfiliba at gmail.com (gangesmaster)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 07:10:23 -0700
Subject: carshing the interpreter in two lines
Message-ID: <1149343823.789918.210110@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

the following (random) code crashes my interpreter
(python 2.4.3/winxp):

from types import CodeType as code
exec code(0, 5, 8, 0, "hello moshe", (), (), (), "", "", 0, "")

i would expect the interpreter to do some verifying, at least for
sanity (valid opcodes, correct stack size, etc.) before executing
artbitrary code... after all, it was the BDFL who said """I'm not
saying it's uncrashable. I'm saying that if you crash it, it's a
bug unless proven harebrained."""


-tomer



From samschul at pacbell.net  Sat Jun  3 18:07:34 2006
From: samschul at pacbell.net (sam)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 09:07:34 -0700
Subject: carshing the interpreter in two lines
In-Reply-To: <1149343823.789918.210110@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149343823.789918.210110@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149350854.072412.263920@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

tomer:

It is my opinion that you would loose performance if the Python
interpreter had the additional task of verifying byte code. It might be
more appropriate to have a preprocessor that did the verifying as it
compiled the byte code.

Sam Schulenburg

gangesmaster wrote:
> the following (random) code crashes my interpreter
> (python 2.4.3/winxp):
>
> from types import CodeType as code
> exec code(0, 5, 8, 0, "hello moshe", (), (), (), "", "", 0, "")
>
> i would expect the interpreter to do some verifying, at least for
> sanity (valid opcodes, correct stack size, etc.) before executing
> artbitrary code... after all, it was the BDFL who said """I'm not
> saying it's uncrashable. I'm saying that if you crash it, it's a
> bug unless proven harebrained."""
> 
> 
> -tomer



From mwilson-to at sympatico.ca  Sat Jun  3 20:11:54 2006
From: mwilson-to at sympatico.ca (Mel Wilson)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:11:54 -0400
Subject: carshing the interpreter in two lines
In-Reply-To: <1149350854.072412.263920@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149343823.789918.210110@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149350854.072412.263920@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <Khkgg.4356$EF1.302590@news20.bellglobal.com>

sam wrote:
> tomer:
> 
> It is my opinion that you would loose performance if the Python
> interpreter had the additional task of verifying byte code. It might be
> more appropriate to have a preprocessor that did the verifying as it
> compiled the byte code.

Possibly.  A good book on the topic is Douglas Hofstadter's 
_Goedel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid_.

Particularly starting from the chapter "Contracrostipunctus".

         Cheers,        Mel.



> Sam Schulenburg
> 
> gangesmaster wrote:
>> the following (random) code crashes my interpreter
>> (python 2.4.3/winxp):
>>
>> from types import CodeType as code
>> exec code(0, 5, 8, 0, "hello moshe", (), (), (), "", "", 0, "")
>>
>> i would expect the interpreter to do some verifying, at least for
>> sanity (valid opcodes, correct stack size, etc.) before executing
>> artbitrary code... after all, it was the BDFL who said """I'm not
>> saying it's uncrashable. I'm saying that if you crash it, it's a
>> bug unless proven harebrained."""
>>
>>
>> -tomer
> 


From samschul at pacbell.net  Sat Jun  3 22:41:01 2006
From: samschul at pacbell.net (sam)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 13:41:01 -0700
Subject: carshing the interpreter in two lines
In-Reply-To: <Khkgg.4356$EF1.302590@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <1149343823.789918.210110@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149350854.072412.263920@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<Khkgg.4356$EF1.302590@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <1149367261.176919.134090@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Mel:
Wow that book brings back memories. I scanned my copy to review the
subject covered, and came to the conclusion that mind reading
algorithms are the answer.

Sam Schulenburg

Mel Wilson wrote:
> sam wrote:
> > tomer:
> >
> > It is my opinion that you would loose performance if the Python
> > interpreter had the additional task of verifying byte code. It might be
> > more appropriate to have a preprocessor that did the verifying as it
> > compiled the byte code.
>
> Possibly.  A good book on the topic is Douglas Hofstadter's
> _Goedel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid_.
>
> Particularly starting from the chapter "Contracrostipunctus".
>
>          Cheers,        Mel.
>
>
>
> > Sam Schulenburg
> >
> > gangesmaster wrote:
> >> the following (random) code crashes my interpreter
> >> (python 2.4.3/winxp):
> >>
> >> from types import CodeType as code
> >> exec code(0, 5, 8, 0, "hello moshe", (), (), (), "", "", 0, "")
> >>
> >> i would expect the interpreter to do some verifying, at least for
> >> sanity (valid opcodes, correct stack size, etc.) before executing
> >> artbitrary code... after all, it was the BDFL who said """I'm not
> >> saying it's uncrashable. I'm saying that if you crash it, it's a
> >> bug unless proven harebrained."""
> >>
> >>
> >> -tomer
> >



From mwilson-to at sympatico.ca  Sun Jun  4 17:27:06 2006
From: mwilson-to at sympatico.ca (Mel Wilson)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 11:27:06 -0400
Subject: carshing the interpreter in two lines
In-Reply-To: <1149367261.176919.134090@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149343823.789918.210110@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149350854.072412.263920@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<Khkgg.4356$EF1.302590@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<1149367261.176919.134090@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <fZCgg.73$LV.7554@news20.bellglobal.com>

sam wrote:
> Mel:
> Wow that book brings back memories. I scanned my copy to review the
> subject covered, and came to the conclusion that mind reading
> algorithms are the answer.
> 
I gathered from somewhere (but not the index to Andrew 
Hodges' biography) that Turing was toying with an idea for 
"oracles", where a computation would be allowed to call out 
sometimes to a non-computational process to obtain some 
required result.  Used maybe by  interactive debugging programs.

         Cheers,        Mel.

> Mel Wilson wrote:
[ ... ]
>>Douglas Hofstadter's _Goedel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid_.
[ ... ]
>> "Contracrostipunctus".


From aleax at mac.com  Sat Jun  3 20:12:19 2006
From: aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 11:12:19 -0700
Subject: carshing the interpreter in two lines
References: <1149343823.789918.210110@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<1149350854.072412.263920@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1hgcsal.x6phhi1i5nx0qN%aleax@mac.com>

sam <samschul at pacbell.net> wrote:

> tomer:
> 
> It is my opinion that you would loose performance if the Python
> interpreter had the additional task of verifying byte code. It might be
> more appropriate to have a preprocessor that did the verifying as it
> compiled the byte code.

But in this case, there is no "compiled" -- just the code type's
constructor:

> > from types import CodeType as code
> > exec code(0, 5, 8, 0, "hello moshe", (), (), (), "", "", 0, "")

Yes, code() itself could do some sanity checking.  But so could 'exec'
-- it's never a particularly fast operation anyway... and most
definitely NOT on the critical path of normal operations.   I'd rather
have "defense in depth", in this case.


Alex


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sun Jun  4 18:53:18 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 4 Jun 2006 09:53:18 -0700
Subject: carshing the interpreter in two lines
References: <1149343823.789918.210110@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5v35u$rgf$1@panix3.panix.com>

In article <1149343823.789918.210110 at h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
gangesmaster <tomerfiliba at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>the following (random) code crashes my interpreter
>(python 2.4.3/winxp):
>
>from types import CodeType as code
>exec code(0, 5, 8, 0, "hello moshe", (), (), (), "", "", 0, "")
>
>i would expect the interpreter to do some verifying, at least for
>sanity (valid opcodes, correct stack size, etc.) before executing
>artbitrary code... after all, it was the BDFL who said """I'm not
>saying it's uncrashable. I'm saying that if you crash it, it's a
>bug unless proven harebrained."""

IIRC, this has been discussed before and deemed harebrained.  Check SF to
see whether this specific case has been submitted previously and submit
it if not.  Then post to python-dev if it's a new bug and ask for a
ruling on whether it's harebrained.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped
right there."  --Steve Gonedes


From edreamleo at charter.net  Sat Jun  3 16:24:06 2006
From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:24:06 -0500
Subject: Leo 4.4.1 beta 1 released
Message-ID: <jYggg.2644$7T7.1772@fe06.lga>

Leo 4.4.1 beta 1 is now available at:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=3458&package_id=29106

Leo is a text editor, data organizer, project manager and much more. See:
http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/intro.html

The highlights of Leo 4.4.1:
----------------------------
- A new colorizer plugin controlled by jEdit language description files.
  At present this plugin only reliably colors @language python code.
- Multiple editors in Leo's body pane.
- Search commands now support regex replace patterns: \1, \2, etc.
- Support for external debuggers: see 
http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/debuggers.html
- The scripting plugin now creates a Debug Script button.
- Several new commands including run-unit-test, python-help and 
toggle-invisibles.
- The help-for-command commands now contains information for almost all 
commands.
- A new shortcut_button plugin.

Links:
------
Leo:      http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
Home:     http://sourceforge.net/projects/leo/
Download: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=3458
CVS:      http://leo.tigris.org/source/browse/leo/
Quotes:   http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/testimonials.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From laurent.pointal at wanadoo.fr  Sat Jun  3 18:29:51 2006
From: laurent.pointal at wanadoo.fr (Laurent Pointal)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 18:29:51 +0200
Subject: ANN: PQRC - Python Quick Reference Card - v 0.55
Message-ID: <4481b8ff$0$19687$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>

[for those who dont read clp.announce]

The Python Quick Reference Card (PQRC) aims to provide a printable quick
reference documentation for the Python language and some of its main
standard libraries (currently for Python 2.4).

PQRC tries to group informations about same/similar subject to avoid
searching in multiple places.

It is published under a Creative Common [by nc sa] license.

It is still a work in progress, but currently usable, you can get it at:

http://www.limsi.fr/Individu/pointal/python/pqrc/


And I'll maintain a fixed URL at

http://laurent.pointal.org/python/pqrc/




From kent at kentsjohnson.com  Sun Jun  4 14:14:19 2006
From: kent at kentsjohnson.com (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 08:14:19 -0400
Subject: ANN: PQRC - Python Quick Reference Card - v 0.55
In-Reply-To: <4481b8ff$0$19687$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>
References: <4481b8ff$0$19687$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>
Message-ID: <4482cd93$1_2@newspeer2.tds.net>

Laurent Pointal wrote:
> And I'll maintain a fixed URL at
> 
> http://laurent.pointal.org/python/pqrc/

Broken at the moment.

Kent


From laurent.pointal at wanadoo.fr  Sun Jun  4 20:33:07 2006
From: laurent.pointal at wanadoo.fr (Laurent Pointal)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:33:07 +0200
Subject: ANN: PQRC - Python Quick Reference Card - v 0.55
References: <4481b8ff$0$19687$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>
	<4482cd93$1_2@newspeer2.tds.net>
Message-ID: <44832763$0$20143$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>

Kent Johnson wrote:

> Laurent Pointal wrote:
>> And I'll maintain a fixed URL at
>> 
>> http://laurent.pointal.org/python/pqrc/
> 
> Broken at the moment.

Its back.

Its at my home ADSL, normally online, but my provider reset the connexion
each 24h and its home maintained... the page contains only a link to the
other URL which has the data and is beyond a larger bandwidth server.

A+

Laurent.

> 
> Kent



From gene.tani at gmail.com  Sun Jun  4 14:59:02 2006
From: gene.tani at gmail.com (gene tani)
Date: 4 Jun 2006 05:59:02 -0700
Subject: ANN: PQRC - Python Quick Reference Card - v 0.55
In-Reply-To: <4481b8ff$0$19687$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>
References: <4481b8ff$0$19687$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>
Message-ID: <1149425942.073680.234250@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>


Laurent Pointal wrote:
> [for those who dont read clp.announce]
>
> The Python Quick Reference Card (PQRC) aims to provide a printable quick
> reference documentation for the Python language and some of its main
> standard libraries (currently for Python 2.4).
>
> PQRC tries to group informations about same/similar subject to avoid
> searching in multiple places.
>

very nice.  There's a few others I've collected over the years.  I
havent found an OS X dashboard widget yet tho:

http://rgruet.free.fr/#QuickRef

http://infohost.nmt.edu/tcc/help/pubs/python22.pdf
http://www.onlamp.com/python/excerpt/PythonPocketRef/examples/python.pdf
http://diveintopython.org/appendix/abstracts.html

http://www.yukoncollege.yk.ca/~ttopper/COMP118/rCheatSheet.html
http://www.schacherer.de/frank/tech/tools/python.html

http://www.experimentierkasten.de/python_php.pdf
http://ferg.org/pyref/index.html

http://projects.edgewall.com/python-sidebar/
http://jotsite.com/blogArchives/2006_03.php#000383

http://www.drweb.de/weblog/weblog/?p=571
http://www.petefreitag.com/item/455.cfm



From artur_spruce at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  5 13:29:36 2006
From: artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR)
Date: 5 Jun 2006 04:29:36 -0700
Subject: ANN: PQRC - Python Quick Reference Card - v 0.55
References: <4481b8ff$0$19687$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>
Message-ID: <1149506976.002410.207870@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Laurent Pointal wrote:
> [for those who dont read clp.announce]
>
> The Python Quick Reference Card (PQRC) aims to provide a printable quick
> reference documentation for the Python language and some of its main
> standard libraries (currently for Python 2.4).
> [etc.]

Great job, Laurent! If this is version 0.55, I can't wait for 1.0. Keep
up the good work.

BTW, it would be great if something like this came with Python
installation. No more sifting through library TOC/index, "where did I
see this stuff" :)

AdSR



From andre.roberge at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 18:46:13 2006
From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?QW5kcuk=?=)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 09:46:13 -0700
Subject: elementtree and inclusion of special characters
Message-ID: <1149353173.530528.116170@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

I'm using elementtree to process some html files, by building a tree,
manipulating it, and writing it back.  One problem I encounter is that
elementtree converts some symbols in an unwanted way.  For example, the
symbol ">" is converted to "&gt;".  This is fine in html code, but not
if the page includes some script like the example below

<script type="text/javascript">
function init() {
var a = 1;
if (a > 0)
   {
   alert("Spam alert");
   }
}
</script>

The resulting code, with "a &gt; 0" is not understood by the browser...

Any suggestions as to how I can circumvent this problem in an easy way?

Andr?



From fredrik at pythonware.com  Sat Jun  3 19:29:00 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 19:29:00 +0200
Subject: elementtree and inclusion of special characters
In-Reply-To: <1149353173.530528.116170@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149353173.530528.116170@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5sgss$fu6$1@sea.gmane.org>

Andr? wrote:

> I'm using elementtree to process some html files, by building a tree,
> manipulating it, and writing it back.  One problem I encounter is that
> elementtree converts some symbols in an unwanted way.  For example, the
> symbol ">" is converted to "&gt;".  This is fine in html code, but not
> if the page includes some script like the example below
> 
> <script type="text/javascript">
> function init() {
> var a = 1;
> if (a > 0)
>    {
>    alert("Spam alert");
>    }
> }
> </script>
> 
> The resulting code, with "a &gt; 0" is not understood by the browser...

ET is an XML library, and an XHTML-aware browser has no problems dealing 
with that, but I assume you might want to support tag soup parsers like 
IE6 as well ;-)

to write true HTML 4.0, you need a HTML serializer.  there's a good one 
in Kid (though I don't know how hard it would be to use that one with a 
preexisting tree, rather than a Kid "event stream").

another alternative is the HTMLTree class in Ian Bicking's commentary
application:

http://svn.pythonpaste.org/Paste/apps/Commentary/trunk/commentary/dumbpath.py

(you may have to tweak that module somewhat to be able to use it without 
elementtidy).

</F>



From no-spam at no-spam-no-spam.com  Sat Jun  3 19:38:44 2006
From: no-spam at no-spam-no-spam.com (robert)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 19:38:44 +0200
Subject: __builtins__.loglog - logging more pythonic, decent & scalable ?
	- Re: "No handlers could be found for logger xxx"
Message-ID: <e5shf5$1g1g$1@ulysses.news.tiscali.de>

As more and more python packages are starting to use the bloomy 
(Java-ish) 'logging' module in a mood of responsibility and as I am not 
overly happy with the current "thickener" style of usage, I want to put 
this comment and a alternative most simple default framework for 
discussion.
Maybe there are more Python users which like to see that imported 
(managed) logging issue more down-to-earth and flexible ? ...

Vinay Sajip wrote:
 > robert wrote:
 >
 >>some packages like paramiko use the logging. I get this messages:
 >>"No handlers could be found for logger xxx" on stderr
 >>
 >>Why is un-initialized logging allowed to chatter at all?
 >
 > You could invoke logging.basicConfig with a level of CRITICAL. This
 > will generally filter out logging messages.

Meanwhile i looked on logging and its doc:

The doc of for example basicConfig (promising to be quite simple/silent):

"basicConfig( )

Does basic configuration for the logging system by creating a 
StreamHandler with a default Formatter and adding it to the root logger. 
The functions debug(), info(), warning(), error() and critical() will 
call basicConfig() automatically if no handlers are defined for the root 
logger. "

=> So far I don't get any idea what will happen after doing this. What 
is a StreamHandler? a "default Formatter"? CRITICAL? what is this 
default magic behavior? even if silent behavior is installed log(), 
debug() consume still a lot of execution time => I have to read the 
logging code anyway => for my needs i rendered dead the Logger() in 
app-init / dead the line in logging which chatters within my standard 
set of Python patches.

I looked around a little more and think, that logging it is really a 
_FRAMEWORK_ - non-pythonic . a declarative monster.

Meaning: too big the interface and too big its basic footprint. without 
a decent scaling. too loud. it takes lots of time until one understands 
the basics. even the simplest setup example has not less than 8 lines - 
strange "filehandlers" and "formatters" are going on - and it is a 
framework which does a lot of obscure things, its class collection reads 
more like an magic application only understandable by its immediate 
programmers - rather than a stdlib part.
Its almost a Java-ish ego class bunch.

Some wide spread packages like paramiko use it already - inside stdlib 
only cookielib so far. Yet, just for providing the option they are 
costly pre-importing almost the whole framework functionality (in 
memory, frozen apps etc.) and have considerable costs during execution 
(regarding my step-in debugging sessions: seems to do very very late 
dispatching).
Python is still not an OS on its own but a programming language/library 
which should fit into OS'es.
( though they meanwhile put the CJK codecs etc. into the python core !? 
:-) )

Yes, one could use such functionality - but one does only in rarest cases.
I did and do logging a lot, but always had quite simple paths. I'd 
usually still not go though that framework in almost all cases, because 
it would require many hours until I really know whats going magically in 
all kinds of cases.

99% of my app logging needs were and are fulfilled by a simple direct 
module function as simple as:

def doLog(text,level,**kwattrs):
     #  in case write to file or whatever ...

and so I simply know really what will happen. Collecting all logs is 
also so easy with Python, that it could be _enabled_ by a much much 
simpler and pythonic one-function-framework: a empty log-hook function 
in the python __builtins__:

=========================================================

def loglog(text, channel='default', level=0, **kwattrs):
     pass

=========================================================

yet there could go any complex hierarchical channel names through that 
like channel="mypackage.mymodule.subtheme" or even multi-hierarchical 
channel classes/objects similar to exception-class-catching in addition 
to string-catching. Example:

=========================================================
class MyLogChannelAA(MyLogChannelA, MyLogAspectXY)

loglog(text, MyLogChannelAA, __debug__,  lcls=locals() )
=========================================================

If that simple would be the recommended standard logging interface in 
Python, I think, really a significant fraction of Python programmers 
would first understand and than use ( call and consume ) it - and 
(decent) modules would not blow up the machine unconditionally just for 
a mere specialized option.

For massive usage apps could shortcut THEMSELVES with bloomy names and 
level-constants like logdebug() logerror() ....
(Recommendations at best - no more framework.)

Still this would be flexible enough and a super-hierarchical obscure 
logger and handler collection as exposed by "logging" or any other 
alternative could still be hooked in, while no module which does logging 
has to PRE-IMPORT SUCH A FAT SPECIAL LOGGING FRAMEWORK.

 > Un-initialized logging chatters because in development environments,
 > it's useful to be able to spot misconfigured loggers. For production
 > use, set logging.raiseExceptions to 0 and logging should then be quiet.

Think a potentially "misconfigured logger" is not a reason to chatter.

If there is an error in setup you'd 99.99% get an exception. If you 
really totally forget to setup - you simply have forgotten as you can 
forget many things. If you really want log's you'll have 1000 chances as 
developer to see that there are no logs - and add the setup.

My opinion: _By default_ logging should really

* be totally silent
* not import all the logging code and handler classes etc. (but only a 
minimal stub or do ** (see below))
* consume only minimum execution time:  <if-not-initialized: return>

Consider a typical complex program: Hundreds and thousands of things 
have to be be set up and configured which are much more important than a 
debug logger. Yet not every imported library and every class yells 
because it was not used or not basicConfig'ed :-). The logging is not 
the center of the world. In 99% only the developer of a module 
uses/wants the log output.

I see there were already other complaints about this chattering - and 
other people also wondered how to make it silent.

--

In cookielib recently the logging initialization has been **virtualized 
=> its not imported / necessary (in frozen apps) until the cookielib 
debugging was not really requested.
Think thats a better/acceptable style of use and such guidline should be 
put at the top of the logging docs to complete/alternate the above 3 issues.

That all maybe could be healed most easily by the proposed 
__builtin__.loglog in Python : not unconditional wiring to such a 
specific and fat package.


-robert


From mikeisgreat at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 20:05:23 2006
From: mikeisgreat at gmail.com (mikeisgreat at gmail.com)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 11:05:23 -0700
Subject: restarting multiple instances of apache - newbie Q
Message-ID: <1149357923.926548.96230@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

hi all,

i am new to python programming, so thanks for your patience in advance.

I have a small script that I am working on that i want to restart
multiple instances of apaches on our developers servers. We have about
25 developers each with their own apache.

<snip>
import sys, os

try:
   file = open("users.dat", "r")
except IOError, message:
   print >> sys.stderr, "File could not be opened:", message
   sys.exit( 1 )

fdata = file.xreadlines()

for data in fdata:
   fields = data.split("_")
#   print "USER: " + fields[0] + " ADDRESS: " + fields[1].strip("\n")
    print '/etc/init.d/httpd_' + fields[0] + ' restart

</snip>

each users apache is named 'httpd_{user}'

I am not sure how to do this cleanly other than in a shell script.

I want to restart the apache and wait until complete to restart the
next users apache.

Any advice is appreciated .. 

again, thanks for your time.
-mike



From pmartin at snakecard.com  Sat Jun  3 20:21:49 2006
From: pmartin at snakecard.com (pcm)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 13:21:49 -0500
Subject: Python + WinCE + serial port
Message-ID: <4481d342$0$21359$636a55ce@news.free.fr>

Hi,

Has anyone ever worked on a Python-WinCE-based program that involved serial
port management ?

Regards,

Philippe



From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 20:49:27 2006
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Fuzzyman)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 11:49:27 -0700
Subject: Python + WinCE + serial port
In-Reply-To: <4481d342$0$21359$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
References: <4481d342$0$21359$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <1149360567.824911.245750@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


pcm wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Has anyone ever worked on a Python-WinCE-based program that involved serial
> port management ?
>

Because of the size of the runtime and the fragility of the GUI
toolkits, there has been little serious development with PythonCE.
(Little not none - and it's great to have Python available.)

There is no built in support for the serial port in PythonCE (AFAIK).
Your best bet is using ctypes (for which a PythonCE port has been done)
and the microsoft API.

Fuzzyman
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml

> Regards,
> 
> Philippe



From pmartin at snakecard.com  Sun Jun  4 11:47:36 2006
From: pmartin at snakecard.com (pcm)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 04:47:36 -0500
Subject: Python + WinCE + serial port
References: <4481d342$0$21359$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
	<1149360567.824911.245750@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4482ac3c$0$12347$626a54ce@news.free.fr>

Fuzzyman wrote:

> 
> pcm wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Has anyone ever worked on a Python-WinCE-based program that involved
>> serial port management ?
>>
> 
> Because of the size of the runtime and the fragility of the GUI
> toolkits, there has been little serious development with PythonCE.
> (Little not none - and it's great to have Python available.)
> 
> There is no built in support for the serial port in PythonCE (AFAIK).
> Your best bet is using ctypes (for which a PythonCE port has been done)
> and the microsoft API.
> 
> Fuzzyman
> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml
> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Philippe




Thanks, does that mean that I need to write an extension to the WinCE API or
is that built-into the Python package ?

Regards,
Philippe





From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 00:11:55 2006
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Fuzzyman)
Date: 5 Jun 2006 15:11:55 -0700
Subject: Python + WinCE + serial port
In-Reply-To: <4482ac3c$0$12347$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
References: <4481d342$0$21359$636a55ce@news.free.fr>
	<1149360567.824911.245750@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<4482ac3c$0$12347$626a54ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <1149545515.102850.272920@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


pcm wrote:
> Fuzzyman wrote:
>
> >
> > pcm wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Has anyone ever worked on a Python-WinCE-based program that involved
> >> serial port management ?
> >>
> >
> > Because of the size of the runtime and the fragility of the GUI
> > toolkits, there has been little serious development with PythonCE.
> > (Little not none - and it's great to have Python available.)
> >
> > There is no built in support for the serial port in PythonCE (AFAIK).
> > Your best bet is using ctypes (for which a PythonCE port has been done)
> > and the microsoft API.
> >
> > Fuzzyman
> > http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml
> >
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Philippe
>
>
>
>
> Thanks, does that mean that I need to write an extension to the WinCE API or
> is that built-into the Python package ?
>

(Sorry for late reply.)

There is a version of ctypes *compiled* for PythonCE (from the PythonCE
sourceforge page).

Using ctypes you should be able to use the Microsoft Win32 API to
access the serial port from *pure Python* code.

You will need to use the Microsoft docs to see which calls to make.

Fuzzyman
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml
> Regards,
> Philippe



From jim.lewis at miclog.com  Sat Jun  3 20:56:23 2006
From: jim.lewis at miclog.com (Jim Lewis)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 11:56:23 -0700
Subject: Pyrex list/array
Message-ID: <1149360983.373137.200740@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

I'm trying to move a function into pyrex for speed. The python side
needs to pass a list to the pyrex function. Do I need to convert to
array or something so pyrex can generate tight code? I'm not clear how
to do this.



From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Sun Jun  4 03:39:55 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 11:39:55 +1000
Subject: Pyrex list/array
In-Reply-To: <1149360983.373137.200740@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149360983.373137.200740@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <448239EB.6010706@lexicon.net>

On 4/06/2006 4:56 AM, Jim Lewis wrote:
> I'm trying to move a function into pyrex for speed.

You probably didn't expect the Inquisition; nobody does. But here it is, 
nice red uniforms and all:

1. What is your speed requirement and how far short of that are you at 
the moment?
2. Are you sure there is no Python or third-party module that does what 
you want?
3. Is your algorithm the best possible?
4. Is your Python implementation of that algorithm the best possible? 
Have you exposed it to the critical gaze of the speed-freaks in this 
newsgroup?
5. Does your architecture support psyco? If so, have you tried that and 
what were the results?

> The python side
> needs to pass a list to the pyrex function. Do I need to convert to
> array or something so pyrex can generate tight code? I'm not clear how
> to do this.
> 

The question might be better asked on the Pyrex mailing list.

You don't need to convert a list to a C array, and it may not even be 
possible, depending on what type(s) of data you have in the list.

Almost any Python code is also valid Pyrex code. For a start, just 
compile your function with Pyrex and compare the speed. What you do next 
is going to depend very much on what operations you are performing on 
the list and the objects it contains. Watch out for Python built-ins 
like range, xrange, ord, chr, abs, bool, int(a_number), float(a_number), 
divmod, max/min (two_numeric_args). In almost all cases you get cheap 
wins by replacing use of these by simple C-like code -- provided of 
course you are absolutely sure you know what types you are dealing with.

HTH,
John


From jim.lewis at miclog.com  Sun Jun  4 11:59:00 2006
From: jim.lewis at miclog.com (Jim Lewis)
Date: 4 Jun 2006 02:59:00 -0700
Subject: Pyrex list/array
In-Reply-To: <448239EB.6010706@lexicon.net>
References: <1149360983.373137.200740@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<448239EB.6010706@lexicon.net>
Message-ID: <1149415140.458073.65310@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Thanks for your comments.

> You probably didn't expect the Inquisition...

Correct ;-)

> 1. What is your speed requirement and how far short of that are you at  the moment?

~10 times faster.

> 2. Are you sure there is no Python or third-party module that does what you want?

Yes.

> 3. Is your algorithm the best possible?

I think so although of course one can never be certain.

> 4. Is your Python implementation of that algorithm the best possible? Have you exposed it to the critical gaze of the speed-freaks in this  newsgroup?

Thanks for the good suggestion but I want to try pyrex first.

> 5. Does your architecture support psyco? If so, have you tried that and what were the results?

Already using psyco.

> The question might be better asked on the Pyrex mailing list.

I did not find it - where is it?

> Almost any Python code is also valid Pyrex code. For a start, just compile your function with Pyrex and compare the speed.

It's slower.

> What you do next is going to depend very much on what operations you are performing on  the list and the objects it contains.

Simple list of ints. Comparing sections of lists between each other.



From skip at pobox.com  Sun Jun  4 12:55:43 2006
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 05:55:43 -0500
Subject: Pyrex list/array
In-Reply-To: <1149415140.458073.65310@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149360983.373137.200740@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<448239EB.6010706@lexicon.net>
	<1149415140.458073.65310@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <17538.48175.243802.549777@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    >> 5. Does your architecture support psyco? If so, have you tried that
    >>    and what were the results?

    Jim> Already using psyco.

Is it substantially faster with psyco than without?  If psyco is performing
its magic on the critical section of code already, you are going to lose
that when switching to Pyrex.

Skip


From jim.lewis at miclog.com  Sun Jun  4 13:02:31 2006
From: jim.lewis at miclog.com (Jim Lewis)
Date: 4 Jun 2006 04:02:31 -0700
Subject: Pyrex list/array
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6516.1149418551.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <1149360983.373137.200740@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<448239EB.6010706@lexicon.net>
	<1149415140.458073.65310@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6516.1149418551.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1149418950.943306.262510@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

> Is it substantially faster with psyco than without?  If psyco is performing
> its magic on the critical section of code already, you are going to lose
> that when switching to Pyrex.

Yes but from what I read Pyrex can be a lot faster than psyco under the
right circumstances.



From skip at pobox.com  Sun Jun  4 13:22:19 2006
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 06:22:19 -0500
Subject: Pyrex list/array
In-Reply-To: <1149418950.943306.262510@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149360983.373137.200740@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<448239EB.6010706@lexicon.net>
	<1149415140.458073.65310@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<mailman.6516.1149418551.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<1149418950.943306.262510@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <17538.49771.991613.732043@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    >> Is it substantially faster with psyco than without?  If psyco is
    >> performing its magic on the critical section of code already, you are
    >> going to lose that when switching to Pyrex.

    Jim> Yes but from what I read Pyrex can be a lot faster than psyco under
    Jim> the right circumstances.

I'm sure that's true.  That also means under the wrong circumstances it
might not. ;-)  Can you post the code that's running too slowly?

Also, note that psyco learned some new tricks at the recent NeedForSpeed
sprint. You might want to check out the latest version from Subversion and
give it a whirl.

Skip


From sjmachin at lexicon.net  Sun Jun  4 14:17:41 2006
From: sjmachin at lexicon.net (John Machin)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 22:17:41 +1000
Subject: Pyrex list/array
In-Reply-To: <1149415140.458073.65310@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149360983.373137.200740@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<448239EB.6010706@lexicon.net>
	<1149415140.458073.65310@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4482CF65.1070506@lexicon.net>

On 4/06/2006 7:59 PM, Jim Lewis wrote:
> Thanks for your comments.
> 
>> You probably didn't expect the Inquisition...
> 
> Correct ;-)

Nobody does :-)

> 
>> The question might be better asked on the Pyrex mailing list.
> 
> I did not find it - where is it?

Evidently somewhere near the Hall of the Mountain King. A reference to 
it is cunningly concealed in the last place one would think of finding 
it: under the heading "Mailing List" on the Pyrex home page :-) Here: 
http://lists.copyleft.no/mailman/listinfo/pyrex ... get in quick before 
the pirate moves it again.

> 
>> Almost any Python code is also valid Pyrex code. For a start, just compile your function with Pyrex and compare the speed.
> 
> It's slower.
> 
>> What you do next is going to depend very much on what operations you are performing on  the list and the objects it contains.
> 
> Simple list of ints. Comparing sections of lists between each other.

Do you mean alist[x:x+n] == alist[y:y+n] ?
If so, that's creating two new lists each of size n, and then comparing 
those two lists. I doubt that psyco would recognize that it didn't need 
to copy the two slices. The first step might be to write functions to 
compare without copying, e.g.:

def py_slices_cmp_eq(py_list, start1, start2, size):
     """Return 1 if py_list[start1+size] == py_list[start2+size]
     else 0"""
     offset = start2 - start1
     for i in xrange(start1, start1+size):
         if py_list[i] != py_list[i+offset]:
             return 0
     return 1

See what psyco makes of that.
Then turn that into a cdef function for Pyrex.

If that's still not fast enough, then you might be in for some harder work:

Allocate memory for a C array, unpack your list into it, write 
comparison functions c_slices_cmp_* that operate on your array of ints.
There should be no Python stuff in there, only C constructs. You can 
even use memcmp() for the cmp_eq function.

Which brings us back to your original question "Do I need to convert to 
array or something so pyrex can generate tight code?" ...
1. Some of the above may help you to determine whether you need to.
2. Without any knowledge of the size of your list or what you are doing, 
we can't help you much more on whether you need to.
3. AFAICT, Pyrex doesn't do much in the way of optimisation, leaving 
that up to the C compiler. Generating tight code would depend more on 
you replacing appropriately-chosen Pythonisms with C-isms.

As for *how* to make your C array, something like this:

cdef extern from "Python.h":
    void   PyMem_Free(void *p)
    void*  PyMem_Malloc(int n) except NULL
# untested -- compiles OK :-)
cdef int * int_array_from_list(object ilist):
     cdef int n, i
     cdef int * arrayp
     n = len(ilist)
     arrayp = <int *>PyMem_Malloc(n * sizeof(int))
     for i from 0 <= i < n:
         arrayp[i] = ilist[i]
     return &arrayp[0]

Hoping some of this helps,
John


From jim.lewis at miclog.com  Sun Jun  4 15:07:01 2006
From: jim.lewis at miclog.com (Jim Lewis)
Date: 4 Jun 2006 06:07:01 -0700
Subject: Pyrex list/array
In-Reply-To: <4482CF65.1070506@lexicon.net>
References: <1149360983.373137.200740@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<448239EB.6010706@lexicon.net>
	<1149415140.458073.65310@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<4482CF65.1070506@lexicon.net>
Message-ID: <1149426421.864274.319290@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

> cunningly concealed in the last place one would think of finding it: under the heading "Mailing List" on the Pyrex home page :-)

Hmmm - maybe I should try the scroll bar occassionally ;-)

> Do you mean alist[x:x+n] == alist[y:y+n] ?

OK, probably you an Skip are right - let's see if I missed something at
the Python level.

There are essentially two differences from your snip above. I am trying
to compute n and there are multiple (under 10) lists. Size of lists are
typically under 100 ints.

> ...See what psyco makes of that.

I'm doing a similar straightforward loop approach but it's too slow.

Jim



From rbann11 at hotmail.com  Sat Jun  3 22:25:31 2006
From: rbann11 at hotmail.com (rbann11 at hotmail.com)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 13:25:31 -0700
Subject: wxpython wxgrid question
Message-ID: <1149366330.999234.299880@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>

Hi,

  I am looking for example code that consists of just a frame and a
grid(10x2).  The grid must fill the its parent even if the frame is
resized.

  Thanks in advance,

        Roger



From jes at nl.demon.net  Sun Jun  4 00:02:11 2006
From: jes at nl.demon.net (Jim Segrave)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 22:02:11 -0000
Subject: wxpython wxgrid question
References: <1149366330.999234.299880@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <12841n3lmt36v2a@corp.supernews.com>

In article <1149366330.999234.299880 at u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
 <rbann11 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>  I am looking for example code that consists of just a frame and a
>grid(10x2).  The grid must fill the its parent even if the frame is
>resized.

This simple program makes a two element window, the lower half of
which is a gridded set of labels which resize with the window. The
important part is the columnconfigure() and rowconfigure() method
calls on the container widget for the grid.
See 
<URL:http://infohost.nmt.edu/tcc/help/pubs/tkinter/grid-config.html>
http://infohost.nmt.edu/tcc/help/pubs/tkinter/grid-config.html

#!/usr/local/bin/python

from Tkinter import *

root = Tk()
# create a frame (unused, but shared with gridded frame)
f = Frame(height = 100)
f.pack(expand = YES, fill = BOTH)

# create a frame for a gridded display
gf = Frame()
gf.pack(expand = YES, fill = BOTH)

# create a 3 x 4 array of labels, each with a different background
# Make each row and column have equal weights, so they'll
# grow and shrink together
for row in range(3):
    gf.rowconfigure(row, weight = 1)
    for col in range(4):
        gf.columnconfigure(col, weight = 1)
        Label(gf, text = "Row: %d\nCol: %d" % (row, col),
              bg = "#%02x%02x%02x" % ((row * 4 + col) * 16,
                                      (row * 4 + col) * 16,
                                      (row * 4 + col) * 16),
              fg = "#ffffff"
              ).grid(row = row, column = col, sticky = NSEW)



root.mainloop()





-- 
Jim Segrave           (jes at jes-2.demon.nl)



From timr at probo.com  Sun Jun  4 01:09:13 2006
From: timr at probo.com (Tim Roberts)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 23:09:13 GMT
Subject: wxpython wxgrid question
References: <1149366330.999234.299880@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <tj5482lcf1if3qfhis7pukgenbk6rgnesq@4ax.com>

rbann11 at hotmail.com wrote:
>
>  I am looking for example code that consists of just a frame and a
>grid(10x2).  The grid must fill the its parent even if the frame is
>resized.

Have you gone through the wxPython demo application?  It contains examples
of every standard control and almost every behavior you might want.
-- 
- Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
  Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.


From rbann11 at hotmail.com  Sun Jun  4 05:58:04 2006
From: rbann11 at hotmail.com (rbann11 at hotmail.com)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 20:58:04 -0700
Subject: wxpython wxgrid question
In-Reply-To: <tj5482lcf1if3qfhis7pukgenbk6rgnesq@4ax.com>
References: <1149366330.999234.299880@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<tj5482lcf1if3qfhis7pukgenbk6rgnesq@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1149393484.553463.286220@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


Tim Roberts wrote:
> rbann11 at hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> >  I am looking for example code that consists of just a frame and a
> >grid(10x2).  The grid must fill the its parent even if the frame is
> >resized.
>
> Have you gone through the wxPython demo application?  It contains examples
> of every standard control and almost every behavior you might want.
> --
> - Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
>   Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

Yes, and i have even checked out "wxpython in action".  All of the
examples tend to leave white space on the right of the frame.  I tried
basic a example with sizers and it didnt work.  That why I was
wondering if someone had got it to work.


   Roger



From jmbc at nospam.fr  Wed Jun  7 21:38:32 2006
From: jmbc at nospam.fr (jean-michel bain-cornu)
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 21:38:32 +0200
Subject: wxpython wxgrid question
In-Reply-To: <1149393484.553463.286220@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149366330.999234.299880@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<tj5482lcf1if3qfhis7pukgenbk6rgnesq@4ax.com>
	<1149393484.553463.286220@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <44872b73$0$7769$7a628cd7@news.club-internet.fr>

rbann11 at hotmail.com a ?crit :
> Tim Roberts wrote:
>> rbann11 at hotmail.com wrote:
>>>  I am looking for example code that consists of just a frame and a
>>> grid(10x2).  The grid must fill the its parent even if the frame is
>>> resized.
>> Have you gone through the wxPython demo application?  It contains examples
>> of every standard control and almost every behavior you might want.
>> --
>> - Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
>>   Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
> 
> Yes, and i have even checked out "wxpython in action".  All of the
> examples tend to leave white space on the right of the frame.  I tried
> basic a example with sizers and it didnt work.  That why I was
> wondering if someone had got it to work.
> 
> 
>    Roger
> 
Hi Roger,
A key point is that the Grid manages itself its available space 
according to the size it can have.
If you just tried to create a simple grid within a simple frame, you 
probably got a grid filling all the frame space, and it's what you want. 
Why that ?
If you do it (for instance with the script below), and you try to 
manually reduce/increase the size of the window, you should see 
scrollbars at the edge of the window ; these scrollbars come from the 
grid, because they take in account the labels row and col (wxGrid comes 
from wxScrolledWindow). You can see that no more space is available 
beyond the scrollbar, so the grid takes the whole space.
And why the white space on the right ? This space is not on the right of 
the grid, but on the right of the last col. We could think it's like 
that because it's not possible to compute an appropriate col size for 
the grid cols, but it's not displayed exactly the same in linux and in 
windows. In one case it's over the last col (not enough space) and in 
the other case it's beyond (too much space). I think that as the program 
must work on all the environments, the interface must stay enough 
global, and sometimes the display is not perfectly done.
The advantage is that if we let wx decide, we won't have to think how to 
set the widgets.
Regards,
jm

#----------------------------------------------------------------------
import wx,wx.grid
#----------------------------------------------------------------------
class MainWindow(wx.Frame):
     def __init__(self,parent,id,title):
         wx.Frame.__init__(self,parent,wx.ID_ANY,title)
         #--
         self.grid= wx.grid.Grid(id=wx.ID_ANY,parent=self)
         self.grid.CreateGrid(numRows=10,numCols=2)
         self.grid.Fit()
         self.Fit()
         #--
         self.Show(1)
#----------------------------------------------------------------------
app = wx.PySimpleApp()
frame=MainWindow(None,-1,'Grid sizer')
app.MainLoop()
del app
#----------------------------------------------------------------------


From rbann11 at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  9 23:43:59 2006
From: rbann11 at hotmail.com (rbann11 at hotmail.com)
Date: 9 Jun 2006 14:43:59 -0700
Subject: wxpython wxgrid question
In-Reply-To: <44872b73$0$7769$7a628cd7@news.club-internet.fr>
References: <1149366330.999234.299880@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<tj5482lcf1if3qfhis7pukgenbk6rgnesq@4ax.com>
	<1149393484.553463.286220@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<44872b73$0$7769$7a628cd7@news.club-internet.fr>
Message-ID: <1149889439.527285.69620@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


jean-michel bain-cornu wrote:
> rbann11 at hotmail.com a ?crit :
> > Tim Roberts wrote:
> >> rbann11 at hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>  I am looking for example code that consists of just a frame and a
> >>> grid(10x2).  The grid must fill the its parent even if the frame is
> >>> resized.
> >> Have you gone through the wxPython demo application?  It contains examples
> >> of every standard control and almost every behavior you might want.
> >> --
> >> - Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
> >>   Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
> >
> > Yes, and i have even checked out "wxpython in action".  All of the
> > examples tend to leave white space on the right of the frame.  I tried
> > basic a example with sizers and it didnt work.  That why I was
> > wondering if someone had got it to work.
> >
> >
> >    Roger
> >
> Hi Roger,
> A key point is that the Grid manages itself its available space
> according to the size it can have.
> If you just tried to create a simple grid within a simple frame, you
> probably got a grid filling all the frame space, and it's what you want.
> Why that ?
> If you do it (for instance with the script below), and you try to
> manually reduce/increase the size of the window, you should see
> scrollbars at the edge of the window ; these scrollbars come from the
> grid, because they take in account the labels row and col (wxGrid comes
> from wxScrolledWindow). You can see that no more space is available
> beyond the scrollbar, so the grid takes the whole space.
> And why the white space on the right ? This space is not on the right of
> the grid, but on the right of the last col. We could think it's like
> that because it's not possible to compute an appropriate col size for
> the grid cols, but it's not displayed exactly the same in linux and in
> windows. In one case it's over the last col (not enough space) and in
> the other case it's beyond (too much space). I think that as the program
> must work on all the environments, the interface must stay enough
> global, and sometimes the display is not perfectly done.
> The advantage is that if we let wx decide, we won't have to think how to
> set the widgets.
> Regards,
> jm
>
> #----------------------------------------------------------------------
> import wx,wx.grid
> #----------------------------------------------------------------------
> class MainWindow(wx.Frame):
>      def __init__(self,parent,id,title):
>          wx.Frame.__init__(self,parent,wx.ID_ANY,title)
>          #--
>          self.grid= wx.grid.Grid(id=wx.ID_ANY,parent=self)
>          self.grid.CreateGrid(numRows=10,numCols=2)
>          self.grid.Fit()
>          self.Fit()
>          #--
>          self.Show(1)
> #----------------------------------------------------------------------
> app = wx.PySimpleApp()
> frame=MainWindow(None,-1,'Grid sizer')
> app.MainLoop()
> del app
> #----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Tim,

  I knew it was something like that, but I had to ask the question. I
was hoping that there was a way around the problem.

  Roger



From rbann11 at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  9 23:43:59 2006
From: rbann11 at hotmail.com (rbann11 at hotmail.com)
Date: 9 Jun 2006 14:43:59 -0700
Subject: wxpython wxgrid question
In-Reply-To: <44872b73$0$7769$7a628cd7@news.club-internet.fr>
References: <1149366330.999234.299880@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<tj5482lcf1if3qfhis7pukgenbk6rgnesq@4ax.com>
	<1149393484.553463.286220@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<44872b73$0$7769$7a628cd7@news.club-internet.fr>
Message-ID: <1149889439.662650.154260@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>


jean-michel bain-cornu wrote:
> rbann11 at hotmail.com a ?crit :
> > Tim Roberts wrote:
> >> rbann11 at hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>  I am looking for example code that consists of just a frame and a
> >>> grid(10x2).  The grid must fill the its parent even if the frame is
> >>> resized.
> >> Have you gone through the wxPython demo application?  It contains examples
> >> of every standard control and almost every behavior you might want.
> >> --
> >> - Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
> >>   Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
> >
> > Yes, and i have even checked out "wxpython in action".  All of the
> > examples tend to leave white space on the right of the frame.  I tried
> > basic a example with sizers and it didnt work.  That why I was
> > wondering if someone had got it to work.
> >
> >
> >    Roger
> >
> Hi Roger,
> A key point is that the Grid manages itself its available space
> according to the size it can have.
> If you just tried to create a simple grid within a simple frame, you
> probably got a grid filling all the frame space, and it's what you want.
> Why that ?
> If you do it (for instance with the script below), and you try to
> manually reduce/increase the size of the window, you should see
> scrollbars at the edge of the window ; these scrollbars come from the
> grid, because they take in account the labels row and col (wxGrid comes
> from wxScrolledWindow). You can see that no more space is available
> beyond the scrollbar, so the grid takes the whole space.
> And why the white space on the right ? This space is not on the right of
> the grid, but on the right of the last col. We could think it's like
> that because it's not possible to compute an appropriate col size for
> the grid cols, but it's not displayed exactly the same in linux and in
> windows. In one case it's over the last col (not enough space) and in
> the other case it's beyond (too much space). I think that as the program
> must work on all the environments, the interface must stay enough
> global, and sometimes the display is not perfectly done.
> The advantage is that if we let wx decide, we won't have to think how to
> set the widgets.
> Regards,
> jm
>
> #----------------------------------------------------------------------
> import wx,wx.grid
> #----------------------------------------------------------------------
> class MainWindow(wx.Frame):
>      def __init__(self,parent,id,title):
>          wx.Frame.__init__(self,parent,wx.ID_ANY,title)
>          #--
>          self.grid= wx.grid.Grid(id=wx.ID_ANY,parent=self)
>          self.grid.CreateGrid(numRows=10,numCols=2)
>          self.grid.Fit()
>          self.Fit()
>          #--
>          self.Show(1)
> #----------------------------------------------------------------------
> app = wx.PySimpleApp()
> frame=MainWindow(None,-1,'Grid sizer')
> app.MainLoop()
> del app
> #----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Tim,

  I knew it was something like that, but I had to ask the question. I
was hoping that there was a way around the problem.

  Roger



From cito at online.de  Sat Jun  3 23:23:32 2006
From: cito at online.de (Christoph Zwerschke)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 23:23:32 +0200
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
Message-ID: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>

You will often hear that for reasons of fault minimization, you should 
use a programming language with strict typing:
http://turing.une.edu.au/~comp284/Lectures/Lecture_18/lecture/node1.html

I just came across a funny example in which the opposite is the case.

The following is a binary search algorithm in Java. It searches a value 
in an ordered array a of ints:

public static int binarySearch(int[] a, int key) {
     int low = 0;
     int high = a.length - 1;
     while (low <= high) {
         int mid = (low + high) / 2;
         int midVal = a[mid];
         if (midVal < key)
             low = mid + 1;
         else if (midVal > key)
             high = mid - 1;
         else
             return mid; // key found
     }
     return -(low + 1);  // key not found.
}

Now the same thing, directly converted to Python:

def binarySearch(a, key):
     low = 0
     high = len(a) - 1
     while low <= high:
         mid = (low + high) / 2
         midVal = a[mid]
         if midVal < key:
             low = mid + 1
         elif midVal > key:
             high = mid - 1;
         else:
             return mid # key found
     return -(low + 1) # key not found.

What's better about the Python version? First, it will operate on *any* 
sorted array, no matter which type the values have.

But second, there is a hidden error in the Java version that the Python 
version does not have.

See the following web page if you dont find it ;-)
http://googleresearch.blogspot.com/2006/06/extra-extra-read-all-about-it-nearly.html

-- Christoph


From claird at lairds.us  Sun Jun  4 01:48:20 2006
From: claird at lairds.us (Cameron Laird)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 23:48:20 +0000
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <4nj9l3-hgn.ln1@lairds.us>

In article <e5sukk$ei4$1 at online.de>,
Christoph Zwerschke  <cito at online.de> wrote:
>You will often hear that for reasons of fault minimization, you should 
>use a programming language with strict typing:
>http://turing.une.edu.au/~comp284/Lectures/Lecture_18/lecture/node1.html
>
>I just came across a funny example in which the opposite is the case.
			.
			.
			.
>What's better about the Python version? First, it will operate on *any* 
>sorted array, no matter which type the values have.
>
>But second, there is a hidden error in the Java version that the Python 
>version does not have.
>
>See the following web page if you dont find it ;-)
>http://googleresearch.blogspot.com/2006/06/extra-extra-read-all-about-it-nearly.html
			.
			.
			.
This is all worth saying, that is, I agree with the conclusions.

The premises are arguable, though.  For me, this example illustrates
the difficulty faced by people who hear, "strict typing", and think
of Java.

At another level, Python's superiority here is epiphenomenal.  Python
probably has a better model for arithmetic than Java, but BDFL knows
that Python is not without its own flaws, particulary in arithmetic.  

So, here's my summary:  Python's a nice language--a very nice one.
It's safer to use than Java in many ways.  Python's typing is 
STRICTER than Java's, but it's also dynamic, so people get to argue
for decades about which is a better model.  Anyone who thinks typing
is a first-order determinant of code quality is making a big mistake
though, anyway.


From cito at online.de  Sun Jun  4 03:49:23 2006
From: cito at online.de (Christoph Zwerschke)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 03:49:23 +0200
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
In-Reply-To: <4nj9l3-hgn.ln1@lairds.us>
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de> <4nj9l3-hgn.ln1@lairds.us>
Message-ID: <e5te72$4id$1@online.de>

Cameron Laird wrote:
> So, here's my summary:  Python's a nice language--a very nice one.
> It's safer to use than Java in many ways.  Python's typing is 
> STRICTER than Java's, but it's also dynamic, so people get to argue
> for decades about which is a better model.  Anyone who thinks typing
> is a first-order determinant of code quality is making a big mistake
> though, anyway.

Yes, sorry. It has nothing to do with strict, but with static typing. 
And I should not have chosen such a general subject line (I just meant 
to be funny, but sounded more like a troll). I had just noticed that the 
direct translation of that Java program to Python would not have that 
subtle bug and found that this was worth mentioning.

-- Christoph


From percivall at gmail.com  Sun Jun  4 01:52:19 2006
From: percivall at gmail.com (Simon Percivall)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 16:52:19 -0700
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <1149378739.429512.26310@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>

Actually, you're wrong on all levels.

First: It's perfectly simple in Java to create a binary sort that sorts
all arrays that contain objects; so wrong there.

Secondly: The bug has nothing to do with static typing (I'm guessing
that's what you meant. Both Python and Java are strongly typed). The
problem is that ints are bounded in Java. They could easily have been
ints and then automatically coerced to (equivalent to) longs when they
got bigger; that they aren't is more a design fault than anything to do
with static typing. The equivalent in Python would have been if an
overflow exception was raised when the int got too big. It might have
been that way, typing or no typing.

Christoph Zwerschke wrote:
> You will often hear that for reasons of fault minimization, you should
> use a programming language with strict typing:
> http://turing.une.edu.au/~comp284/Lectures/Lecture_18/lecture/node1.html
>
> I just came across a funny example in which the opposite is the case.
>
> The following is a binary search algorithm in Java. It searches a value
> in an ordered array a of ints:
>
> public static int binarySearch(int[] a, int key) {
>      int low = 0;
>      int high = a.length - 1;
>      while (low <= high) {
>          int mid = (low + high) / 2;
>          int midVal = a[mid];
>          if (midVal < key)
>              low = mid + 1;
>          else if (midVal > key)
>              high = mid - 1;
>          else
>              return mid; // key found
>      }
>      return -(low + 1);  // key not found.
> }
>
> Now the same thing, directly converted to Python:
>
> def binarySearch(a, key):
>      low = 0
>      high = len(a) - 1
>      while low <= high:
>          mid = (low + high) / 2
>          midVal = a[mid]
>          if midVal < key:
>              low = mid + 1
>          elif midVal > key:
>              high = mid - 1;
>          else:
>              return mid # key found
>      return -(low + 1) # key not found.
>
> What's better about the Python version? First, it will operate on *any*
> sorted array, no matter which type the values have.
>
> But second, there is a hidden error in the Java version that the Python
> version does not have.
>
> See the following web page if you dont find it ;-)
> http://googleresearch.blogspot.com/2006/06/extra-extra-read-all-about-it-nearly.html
> 
> -- Christoph



From aleax at mac.com  Sun Jun  4 02:07:48 2006
From: aleax at mac.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 17:07:48 -0700
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
	<1149378739.429512.26310@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1hgd8qo.8h0orqhpo6bcN%aleax@mac.com>

Simon Percivall <percivall at gmail.com> wrote:
   ...
> with static typing. The equivalent in Python would have been if an
> overflow exception was raised when the int got too big. It might have
> been that way, typing or no typing.

Indeed, it _used_ to be that way --
<http://docs.python.org/lib/module-exceptions.html> STILL says...:

exception OverflowError

Raised when the result of an arithmetic operation is too large to be
represented. This cannot occur for long integers (which would rather
raise MemoryError than give up). Because of the lack of standardization
of floating point exception handling in C, most floating point
operations also aren't checked. For plain integers, all operations that
can overflow are checked except left shift, where typical applications
prefer to drop bits than raise an exception.


Actually, the docs are obsolete on this point, and an int becomes a long
when that's necessary:

>>> sys.maxint+1
2147483648L

but, this operation _would_ have raised OverflowError in old-enough
versions of Python (not sure exactly when the switch happened...).


Alex


From cito at online.de  Sun Jun  4 03:36:50 2006
From: cito at online.de (Christoph Zwerschke)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 03:36:50 +0200
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
In-Reply-To: <1149378739.429512.26310@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
	<1149378739.429512.26310@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5tdfh$3s3$1@online.de>

Simon Percivall wrote:
 > First: It's perfectly simple in Java to create a binary sort that
 > sorts all arrays that contain objects; so wrong there.

My point was that the *same* Java source example, directly converted to 
Python would *automatically* accept all kinds of arrays. No need to make 
any extra efforts. By the way, how would you do it in Java? With 
function overloading? I would not call that perfectly simple.

 > Secondly: The bug has nothing to do with static typing (I'm guessing
 > that's what you meant. Both Python and Java are strongly typed). The
 > problem is that ints are bounded in Java. They could easily have been
 > ints and then automatically coerced to (equivalent to) longs when they
 > got bigger; that they aren't is more a design fault than anything to
 > do with static typing. The equivalent in Python would have been if an
 > overflow exception was raised when the int got too big. It might have
 > been that way, typing or no typing.

Yes, sorry, I meant static typing, not strict typing. But I still do 
think that the bug has to do with static typing. You're right, the 
direct cause is that ints are bounded in Java, and not bounded in 
Python, and that it could well be the other way round. However, doing it 
the other way round would not be so clever and appropriate for the 
respective language due to the difference in static typing.

Java could coerce the result to long, but then it would still crash when 
the result is stored back to the statically typed variable. So that 
would not be very clever.

And Python could produce an overflow error (and did in the past), but 
taking advantage of the possibilities of dynamic typing and 
automatically producing longs is a cleverer solution for Python, and 
that's why it was proposed and accepted in PEP237.

So the difference in static typing is actually the deeper reason why 
ints were made to behave differently in the two languages.

-- Christoph


From amorgan at xenon.Stanford.EDU  Sun Jun  4 04:52:13 2006
From: amorgan at xenon.Stanford.EDU (Alan Morgan)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 19:52:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
	<1149378739.429512.26310@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<e5tdfh$3s3$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <e5thst$jko$1@xenon.Stanford.EDU>

In article <e5tdfh$3s3$1 at online.de>,
Christoph Zwerschke  <cito at online.de> wrote:
>Simon Percivall wrote:
> > First: It's perfectly simple in Java to create a binary sort that
> > sorts all arrays that contain objects; so wrong there.
>
>My point was that the *same* Java source example, directly converted to 
>Python would *automatically* accept all kinds of arrays.

And the same code converted to SML would automatically work on all
kinds of arrays and SML is statically typed.  It's a language issue,
not a typing issue.

>No need to make any extra efforts.
>By the way, how would you do it in Java? With 
>function overloading? I would not call that perfectly simple.

Since Java doesn't allow function overloading that clearly can't be
the way.  J2SE 5.0 allows generic classes and functions that operate
on generic containers.  There are some gotchas, but it's not drastically
more complex than the original int-only java code.

Alan
-- 
Defendit numerus


From nyamatongwe+thunder at gmail.com  Sun Jun  4 07:08:15 2006
From: nyamatongwe+thunder at gmail.com (Neil Hodgson)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 05:08:15 GMT
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
In-Reply-To: <e5thst$jko$1@xenon.Stanford.EDU>
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
	<1149378739.429512.26310@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<e5tdfh$3s3$1@online.de> <e5thst$jko$1@xenon.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <3Vtgg.2967$ap3.12@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Alan Morgan wrote:

> Since Java doesn't allow function overloading that clearly can't be
> the way.  J2SE 5.0 allows generic classes and functions that operate
> on generic containers.  There are some gotchas, but it's not drastically
> more complex than the original int-only java code.

    Doesn't Java restrict generics to only operate on reference types so 
you can't produce a generic binary search that operates on arrays where 
the item type may be int?

    Neil


From amorgan at xenon.Stanford.EDU  Sun Jun  4 07:12:52 2006
From: amorgan at xenon.Stanford.EDU (Alan Morgan)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 22:12:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de> <e5tdfh$3s3$1@online.de>
	<e5thst$jko$1@xenon.Stanford.EDU>
	<3Vtgg.2967$ap3.12@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <e5tq4k$7j1$1@xenon.Stanford.EDU>

In article <3Vtgg.2967$ap3.12 at news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
Neil Hodgson  <nyamatongwe+thunder at gmail.com> wrote:
>Alan Morgan wrote:
>
>> Since Java doesn't allow function overloading that clearly can't be
>> the way.  J2SE 5.0 allows generic classes and functions that operate
>> on generic containers.  There are some gotchas, but it's not drastically
>> more complex than the original int-only java code.
>
>    Doesn't Java restrict generics to only operate on reference types so 
>you can't produce a generic binary search that operates on arrays where 
>the item type may be int?

Yup, you have to wrap int (and double and float and...).  Blame type
erasure.

Alan
-- 
Defendit numerus


From cito at online.de  Sun Jun  4 11:12:09 2006
From: cito at online.de (Christoph Zwerschke)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 11:12:09 +0200
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
In-Reply-To: <e5thst$jko$1@xenon.Stanford.EDU>
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
	<1149378739.429512.26310@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
	<e5tdfh$3s3$1@online.de> <e5thst$jko$1@xenon.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <e5u858$a1q$1@online.de>

>> Simon Percivall wrote:
>>> First: It's perfectly simple in Java to create a binary sort that
>>> sorts all arrays that contain objects; so wrong there.
>> My point was that the *same* Java source example, directly converted to 
>> Python would *automatically* accept all kinds of arrays.
> 
> And the same code converted to SML would automatically work on all
> kinds of arrays and SML is statically typed.  It's a language issue,
> not a typing issue.

Ok, here the point was that Java has *explicit* static typing. SML is 
not a procedural language and uses *implicit* static typing. Therefore 
it shares some of the benefits of dynamically typed languages such as 
Python. However, an SML version of the program would probably still have 
the same bug as the Java version, right?

>> No need to make any extra efforts.
>> By the way, how would you do it in Java? With 
>> function overloading? I would not call that perfectly simple.
> 
> Since Java doesn't allow function overloading that clearly can't be
> the way.  J2SE 5.0 allows generic classes and functions that operate
> on generic containers.  There are some gotchas, but it's not drastically
> more complex than the original int-only java code.

Java doesn't allow function overloading? That would be new to me. Or did 
  you just want to nitpick that it should be more properly called 
"method overloading" in Java? And as you already said, there are some 
gotchas and you would have to wrap int and long etc. I still would not 
call that perfectly simple, as it is in Python.

-- Christoph


From amorgan at xenon.Stanford.EDU  Sun Jun  4 23:03:09 2006
From: amorgan at xenon.Stanford.EDU (Alan Morgan)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:03:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de> <e5tdfh$3s3$1@online.de>
	<e5thst$jko$1@xenon.Stanford.EDU> <e5u858$a1q$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <e5vhqd$8b1$1@xenon.Stanford.EDU>

In article <e5u858$a1q$1 at online.de>,
Christoph Zwerschke  <cito at online.de> wrote:
>>> Simon Percivall wrote:
>>>> First: It's perfectly simple in Java to create a binary sort that
>>>> sorts all arrays that contain objects; so wrong there.
>>> My point was that the *same* Java source example, directly converted to 
>>> Python would *automatically* accept all kinds of arrays.
>> 
>> And the same code converted to SML would automatically work on all
>> kinds of arrays and SML is statically typed.  It's a language issue,
>> not a typing issue.
>
>Ok, here the point was that Java has *explicit* static typing. SML is 
>not a procedural language and uses *implicit* static typing. Therefore 
>it shares some of the benefits of dynamically typed languages such as 
>Python. However, an SML version of the program would probably still have 
>the same bug as the Java version, right?
>
>>> No need to make any extra efforts.
>>> By the way, how would you do it in Java? With 
>>> function overloading? I would not call that perfectly simple.
>> 
>> Since Java doesn't allow function overloading that clearly can't be
>> the way.  J2SE 5.0 allows generic classes and functions that operate
>> on generic containers.  There are some gotchas, but it's not drastically
>> more complex than the original int-only java code.
>
>Java doesn't allow function overloading?

Brain fart.  You said "function" and I read "operator".

Alan
-- 
Defendit numerus


From iny+news at iki.fi  Sun Jun  4 07:37:38 2006
From: iny+news at iki.fi (Ilpo =?iso-8859-1?Q?Nyyss=F6nen?=)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 08:37:38 +0300
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <m3ejy5wkf1.fsf@iny.iki.fi>

Christoph Zwerschke <cito at online.de> writes:

> What's better about the Python version? First, it will operate on
> *any* sorted array, no matter which type the values have.
>
> But second, there is a hidden error in the Java version that the
> Python version does not have.

While I can see your point, I'd say you are totally in the wrong level
here.

With Java generics you can sort a list and still keeping the type of
the contents defined. This is makes the code less error-prone. But why
would you implement binary search as the standard library already has
it for both arrays and lists? This is one big thing that makes code
less error-prone: using existing well made libraries. You can find
binary search from python standard library too (but actually the API
in Java is a bit better, see the return values).

Well, you can say that the binary search is a good example and in real
code you would use the stuff from the libraries. I'd say it is not
good example: How often will you write such algorithms? Very rarely.

Integer overflows generally are not those errors you run into in
programs. The errors happening most often are from my point of view:

1. null pointer errors
2. wrong type (class cast in Java, some weird missing attribute in python)
3. array/list index out of bounds

First and third ones are the same in about every language. The second
one is one where the typing can make a difference. If in the code
level you know the type all the way, there is much less changes of it
being wrong. (The sad thing in the Java generics is that it is a
compile time only thing and that causes some really weird stuff, but
that is too off topic to here.)

In python passing sequences for a function and also from a function is
very easy. You can very easily pass a sequence as argument list. You
can also very easily return a sequence from the function and even
split it to variables directly. This is very powerful tool, but it has
a problem too: How can you change what you return without breaking the
callers? There are many cases where passing an object instead of a
sequence makes the code much easier to develop further.

What's the point? The point is that neither with Java or Python you
want to be doing things in the low level. You really want to be doing
stuff with objects and using existing libraries as much as possible. 
And in that level Java might be less error-prone as it does restrict
the ways you can shoot yourself more.

-- 
Ilpo Nyyss?nen # biny # /* :-) */


From kkylheku at gmail.com  Sun Jun  4 10:13:44 2006
From: kkylheku at gmail.com (Kaz Kylheku)
Date: 4 Jun 2006 01:13:44 -0700
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
In-Reply-To: <m3ejy5wkf1.fsf@iny.iki.fi>
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de><m3ejy5wkf1.fsf@iny.iki.fi>
Message-ID: <1149408824.174844.178010@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>

Ilpo Nyyss?nen wrote:
> This is one big thing that makes code
> less error-prone: using existing well made libraries.
> You can find binary search from python standard library too (but actually the API
> in Java is a bit better, see the return values).
> Well, you can say that the binary search is a good example and in real
> code you would use the stuff from the libraries.

The trouble with your point is that Christoph's original posting refers
to an article, which, in turn, at the bottom, refers to a bug database
which shows that the very same defect had been found in Sun's Java
library!

Buggy library code is what prompted that article.

> I'd say it is not
> good example: How often will you write such algorithms? Very rarely.
>
> Integer overflows generally are not those errors you run into in
> programs.

Except when you feed those programs inputs which are converted to
integers which are then fed as domain values into some operation that
doesn't fit into the range type.

Other than that, you are okay!

Like when would that happen, right?

> The errors happening most often are from my point of view:
>
> 1. null pointer errors
> 2. wrong type (class cast in Java, some weird missing attribute in python)
> 3. array/list index out of bounds
>
> First and third ones are the same in about every language.

... other than C and C++, where their equivalents just crash or stomp
over memory, but never mind; who uses those? ;)

> The second
> one is one where the typing can make a difference.

Actually, the first one is also where typing can make a difference.
Instead of this stupid idea of pointers or references having a null
value, you can make a null value which has its own type, and banish
null pointers.

So null pointer errors are transformed into type errors: the special
value NIL was fed into an operation where some other type was expected.
And by means of type polymorphism, an operation can be extended to
handle the case of NIL.



From fredrik at pythonware.com  Sun Jun  4 11:22:42 2006
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 11:22:42 +0200
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
In-Reply-To: <1149408824.174844.178010@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de><m3ejy5wkf1.fsf@iny.iki.fi>
	<1149408824.174844.178010@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5u8p2$l38$1@sea.gmane.org>

Kaz Kylheku wrote:

> The trouble with your point is that Christoph's original posting refers
> to an article, which, in turn, at the bottom, refers to a bug database
> which shows that the very same defect had been found in Sun's Java
> library!

and as he points out at the top, it was the article author himself who 
wrote that library code:

     /.../ let me tell you how I discovered the bug: The version
    of binary search that I wrote for the JDK contained the same
    bug. It was reported to Sun recently when it broke someone's
    program, after lying in wait for nine years or so.

</F>



From iny+news at iki.fi  Mon Jun  5 06:49:52 2006
From: iny+news at iki.fi (Ilpo =?iso-8859-1?Q?Nyyss=F6nen?=)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 07:49:52 +0300
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de> <m3ejy5wkf1.fsf@iny.iki.fi>
	<1149408824.174844.178010@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <m3ac8sw6j3.fsf@iny.iki.fi>

"Kaz Kylheku" <kkylheku at gmail.com> writes:

> Buggy library code is what prompted that article.

Yes, but it is an error type that happens very rarely still. And so it
seems that very few programs even notice that bug in that library. 

> Except when you feed those programs inputs which are converted to
> integers which are then fed as domain values into some operation that
> doesn't fit into the range type.

If the input value range is limited, you want to get an error, if out
of range value is given. If you want to handle unlimited values, you
really need to take a look that you can do it. Think for example
storing such value to a database.

>> 1. null pointer errors
>> 2. wrong type (class cast in Java, some weird missing attribute in python)
>> 3. array/list index out of bounds
>>
>> First and third ones are the same in about every language.
>
> ... other than C and C++, where their equivalents just crash or stomp
> over memory, but never mind; who uses those? ;)

It is not different. Your crash can tell you that it was a null
pointer. Your crash can tell you that you stomped over memory. You
just get the information about the error in different way.

> Instead of this stupid idea of pointers or references having a null
> value, you can make a null value which has its own type, and banish
> null pointers.

Yes and I actually think that as bad thing. It is nice to be able to
tell the difference between null pointer and wrong type. Of course if
the error message tells you that you had null there, it is not a
problem, but what if you somehow lose the error message and get only
the exception class name? (Yes, you should always keep the message
too, but it does happen.)

-- 
Ilpo Nyyss?nen # biny # /* :-) */


From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Jun  5 10:11:50 2006
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:11:50 +0200
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
In-Reply-To: <m3ac8sw6j3.fsf@iny.iki.fi>
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
	<m3ejy5wkf1.fsf@iny.iki.fi>	<1149408824.174844.178010@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<m3ac8sw6j3.fsf@iny.iki.fi>
Message-ID: <4483E746.8010801@v.loewis.de>

Ilpo Nyyss?nen wrote:
>> Buggy library code is what prompted that article.
> 
> Yes, but it is an error type that happens very rarely still. And so it
> seems that very few programs even notice that bug in that library. 

That's certainly the case. The bug went unnoticed in the Java library
for nearly a decade, despite Java being used fairly widely.

The OP's point is not that the bug might be "minor": the point is that
an algorithm who was studied hundreds of times in computer science
courses, repeated many times in the literature, and proven "correct"
many times, still is wrong, and that the error primarily arises from
using a type declaration.

> If the input value range is limited, you want to get an error, if out
> of range value is given. If you want to handle unlimited values, you
> really need to take a look that you can do it. Think for example
> storing such value to a database.

So the real design flaw in Java is that int addition doesn't raise
exceptions on overflow? That wouldn't have helped - the algorithm
still would have been wrong, and people still would have noticed
only when it happens (just as they get an exception now: array index
out of bounds)

Regards,
Martin


From cito at online.de  Mon Jun  5 12:07:55 2006
From: cito at online.de (Christoph Zwerschke)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:07:55 +0200
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
In-Reply-To: <m3ac8sw6j3.fsf@iny.iki.fi>
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
	<m3ejy5wkf1.fsf@iny.iki.fi>	<1149408824.174844.178010@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
	<m3ac8sw6j3.fsf@iny.iki.fi>
Message-ID: <e60vpq$aad$1@online.de>

Ilpo Nyyss?nen wrote:
> It is not different. Your crash can tell you that it was a null
> pointer. Your crash can tell you that you stomped over memory. You
> just get the information about the error in different way.

Not all stomping over memory must result in a crash. You might just get 
wrong results, and you don't notice it. Also, if you get such a crash 
it's much harder to find out the reason. It may show off only later in a 
different part of the program.

-- Chris



From kkylheku at gmail.com  Sun Jun  4 09:26:38 2006
From: kkylheku at gmail.com (Kaz Kylheku)
Date: 4 Jun 2006 00:26:38 -0700
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
In-Reply-To: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <1149405998.784652.68510@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Christoph Zwerschke wrote:
> You will often hear that for reasons of fault minimization, you should
> use a programming language with strict typing:
> http://turing.une.edu.au/~comp284/Lectures/Lecture_18/lecture/node1.html

Quoting from that web page:

"A programming language with strict typing and run-time checking should
be used."

This doesn't prescribe latent or manifest typing, only that there be
type checking.

There is no question that for reliability, it is necessary to have type
checking, whether at run time or earlier.

You can have statically typed languages with inadequate type safety,
and you can have dynamically typed languages with inadequate type
safety.

> Now the same thing, directly converted to Python:
>
> def binarySearch(a, key):
>      low = 0
>      high = len(a) - 1
>      while low <= high:
>          mid = (low + high) / 2
>          midVal = a[mid]
>          if midVal < key:
>              low = mid + 1
>          elif midVal > key:
>              high = mid - 1;
>          else:
>              return mid # key found
>      return -(low + 1) # key not found.
>
> What's better about the Python version? First, it will operate on *any*
> sorted array, no matter which type the values have.

Uh huh! With hard-coded < and = operators, how stupid. What if you want
to use it on strings?

Would that be a case-insensitive lexicographic comparison, or
case-insensitive? How do you specify what kind of less-than and equal
you want to do?

-1 to indicate not found? Why copy Java braindamage induced by an
antiquated form of static typing? The Java version has to do that
because the return value is necessarily declared to be of type integer.


;; Common Lisp
;; Binary search any sorted sequence SEQ for ITEM, returning
;; the position (starting from zero) if the item is found,
;; otherwise returns NIL.
;;
;; :REF specifies positional accessing function, default is ELT
;; :LEN specifies function for retrieving sequence length
;; :LESS specifies function for less-than item comparison
;; :SAME specifies function for equality comparison

(defun binary-search (seq item
                          &key (ref #'elt) (len #'length)
                               (less #'<) (same #'=))
  (loop with low = 0
        and high = (funcall len seq)
        while (<= low high)
        do
          (let* ((mid (truncate (+ low high) 2))
                 (mid-val (funcall ref seq mid)))
            (cond
              ((funcall less mid-val item)
               (setf low (1+ mid)))
              ((funcall same mid-val item)
               (return mid))
              (t (setf high (1- mid)))))))

Common Lisp integers are "mathematical", so the overflow problem
described in your referenced article doesn't exist here.



From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Jun  4 10:00:43 2006
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 10:00:43 +0200
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
	<1149405998.784652.68510@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5u3qj$88k$00$1@news.t-online.com>

Kaz Kylheku wrote:

> Would that be a case-insensitive lexicographic comparison, or
> case-insensitive? How do you specify what kind of less-than and equal
> you want to do?

class Key(object):
    def __init__(self, value, key):
        self.keyval = key(value)
        self.key = key
    def __lt__(self, other):
        return self.keyval < self.key(other)
    def __gt__(self, other):
        return self.keyval > self.key(other)

items = ["Alpha", "Beta", "Delta", "Gamma"]
print binarySearch(items, Key("DELTA", str.lower)) # 2

You /can/ teach an old duck new tricks :-)

Peter
 



From cito at online.de  Sun Jun  4 11:43:06 2006
From: cito at online.de (Christoph Zwerschke)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 11:43:06 +0200
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
In-Reply-To: <1149405998.784652.68510@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
	<1149405998.784652.68510@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5u9va$d94$1@online.de>

Kaz Kylheku wrote:
 > You can have statically typed languages with inadequate type safety,
 > and you can have dynamically typed languages with inadequate type
 > safety.

But the point in this example was that the Java program ironically had 
the bug *because* Java handles ints in a type-safe way, while Python 
does not.

 >> What's better about the Python version? First, it will operate on
 >> *any* sorted array, no matter which type the values have.
 >
 > Uh huh! With hard-coded < and = operators, how stupid. What if you
 > want to use it on strings?
 > Would that be a case-insensitive lexicographic comparison, or
 > case-insensitive? How do you specify what kind of less-than and equal
 > you want to do?

Where's the problem? The function uses the standard ordering of the 
values you feed to it, i.e. case-insensitive lexicographical order if 
you feed a lis of ordinary tuples of strings. You can also feed objects 
with a different ordering, like case-insensitive.

Anyway, that was completely not the point. The point was that you could 
take that Java program, convert it directly to Python, and have 
automatically eliminated a bug. I did not claim that the resulting 
Python program was automatically a real good and Pythonic one.

 > -1 to indicate not found? Why copy Java braindamage induced by an
 > antiquated form of static typing? The Java version has to do that

So you would call Python's str.find() method braindamaged as well?

But as I said, that was not the point here anyway.

-- Christoph


From n.estner at gmx.de  Sun Jun  4 14:41:23 2006
From: n.estner at gmx.de (nikie)
Date: 4 Jun 2006 05:41:23 -0700
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <1149424883.529756.13700@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Let's look at two different examples: Consider the following C# code:

static decimal test() {
   decimal x = 10001;
   x /= 100;
   x -= 100;
   return x;
}

It returns "0.01", as you would expect it. Now, consider the python
equivalent:

def test():
    x = 10001
    x /= 100
    x -= 100
    return x

It returns "0". Clearly an error!
Even if you used "from __future__ import division", it would actually
return "0.010000000000005116", which, depending on the context, may
still be an intolerable error.

Morale: the problem isn't whether the the types are chosen at
compile-time or at runtime, it's simply _what_ type is chosen, and
whether it's appropriate or not.

I can even think of an example where C's (and Java's) bounded ints are
the right choice, while Python's arbitraty-precision math isn't: Assume
you get two 32-bit integers containing two time values (or values from
an incremental encoder, or counter values). How do you find out how
many timer ticks (or increments, or counts) have occured between those
two values, and which one was earlier? In C, you can just write:

   long Distance(long t1, long t0) { return t1-t0; }

And all the wraparound cases will be handled correctly (assuming there
have been less than 2^31 timer ticks between these two time values).
"Distance" will return a positive value if t1 was measured after t0, a
negative value otherwise, even if there's been a wraparound in between.
Try the same in Python and tell me which version is simpler!



From cito at online.de  Sun Jun  4 20:25:31 2006
From: cito at online.de (Christoph Zwerschke)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:25:31 +0200
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
In-Reply-To: <1149424883.529756.13700@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
	<1149424883.529756.13700@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5v8ir$j4j$1@online.de>

nikie wrote:
 > Let's look at two different examples: Consider the following C# code:
 >
 > static decimal test() {
 >    decimal x = 10001;
 >    x /= 100;
 >    x -= 100;
 >    return x;
 >
 > It returns "0.01", as you would expect it.

Yes, I would expect that because I have defined x as decimal, not int.

 > Now, consider the python equivalent:
 >
 > def test():
 >     x = 10001
 >     x /= 100
 >     x -= 100
 >     return x

No, that's not the Python equivalent. The equivalent of the line

decimal x = 10001

in Python would be

x = 10001.0

or even:

from decimal import Decimal
x = Decimal(10001)

Setting x = 10001 would be equivalent to the C# code

int x = 10001

 > It returns "0". Clearly an error!

That's not clearly an error. If you set int x = 10001 in C#, then you 
also get a "0". By setting x to be an integer, you are implicitely 
telling Python that you are not interested in fractions, and Python does 
what you want. Granted, this is arguable and will be changed in the 
__future__, but I would not call that an error.

By the way, the equivalent Python code to your C# program gives on my 
machine the very same result:
 >>> x = 10001.0; x /= 100; x -= 100; print x
0.01

 > Even if you used "from __future__ import division", it would actually
 > return "0.010000000000005116", which, depending on the context, may
 > still be an intolerable error.

With from __future__ import division, I also get 0.01 printed. Anyway, 
if there are small discrepancies then these have nothing to do with 
Python but rather with the underlying floating-point hardware and C 
library, the way how you print the value and the fact that 0.01 can 
principally not be stored exactly as a float (nor as a C# decimal), only 
as a Python Decimal.

 > I can even think of an example where C's (and Java's) bounded ints are
 > the right choice, while Python's arbitraty-precision math isn't:
 > Assume you get two 32-bit integers containing two time values (or
 > values from an incremental encoder, or counter values). How do you
 > find out how many timer ticks (or increments, or counts) have occured
 > between those two values, and which one was earlier? In C, you can
 > just write:
 >
 >    long Distance(long t1, long t0) { return t1-t0; }
 >
 > And all the wraparound cases will be handled correctly (assuming there
 > have been less than 2^31 timer ticks between these two time values).
 > "Distance" will return a positive value if t1 was measured after t0, a
 > negative value otherwise, even if there's been a wraparound in
 > between. Try the same in Python and tell me which version is simpler!

First of all, the whole problem only arises because you are using a 
statically typed counter ;-) And it only is easy in C when your counter 
has 32 bits. But what about a 24 bit counter?

Anyway, in Python, you would first define:

def wrap(x, at=1<<31):
     if x < -at:
         x += at*2
     elif x >= at:
         x -= at*2
     return x

Then, the Python program would be as simple:

Distance = lambda t1,t0: wrap(t1-t0)

-- Christoph


From n.estner at gmx.de  Sun Jun  4 22:30:00 2006
From: n.estner at gmx.de (nikie)
Date: 4 Jun 2006 13:30:00 -0700
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
	<1149424883.529756.13700@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<e5v8ir$j4j$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <1149453000.162259.105090@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Christoph Zwerschke wrote:

> nikie wrote:
>  > Let's look at two different examples: Consider the following C# code:
>  >
>  > static decimal test() {
>  >    decimal x = 10001;
>  >    x /= 100;
>  >    x -= 100;
>  >    return x;
>  >
>  > It returns "0.01", as you would expect it.
>
> Yes, I would expect that because I have defined x as decimal, not int.
>
>  > Now, consider the python equivalent:
>  >
>  > def test():
>  >     x = 10001
>  >     x /= 100
>  >     x -= 100
>  >     return x
>
> No, that's not the Python equivalent. The equivalent of the line
>
> decimal x = 10001
>
> in Python would be
>
> x = 10001.0
>
> or even:
>
> from decimal import Decimal
> x = Decimal(10001)

Hm, then I probably didn't get your original point: I thought your
argument was that a dynamically typed language was "safer" because it
would choose the "right" type (in your example, an arbitrary-pecision
integer) automatically. As you can see from the above sample, it
sometimes picks the "wrong" type, too. Now you tell me that this
doesn't count, because I should have told Python what type to use. But
shouldn't that apply to the Java binary-search example, too? I mean,
you could have told Java to used a 64-bit or arbitrary-length integer
type instead of a 32-bit integer (which would actually be equivalent to
the Python code), so it would do the same thing as the Python binary
search implementation.

> ...
> By the way, the equivalent Python code to your C# program gives on my
> machine the very same result:
>  >>> x = 10001.0; x /= 100; x -= 100; print x
> 0.01

Try entering "x" in the interpreter, and read up about the difference
between str() and repr().

>
>  > Even if you used "from __future__ import division", it would actually
>  > return "0.010000000000005116", which, depending on the context, may
>  > still be an intolerable error.
>
> With from __future__ import division, I also get 0.01 printed. Anyway,
> if there are small discrepancies then these have nothing to do with
> Python but rather with the underlying floating-point hardware and C
> library, the way how you print the value and the fact that 0.01 can
> principally not be stored exactly as a float (nor as a C# decimal), only
> as a Python Decimal.

The is OT, but what makes you think a C# decimal can't store 0.01?

>  > I can even think of an example where C's (and Java's) bounded ints are
>  > the right choice, while Python's arbitraty-precision math isn't:
>  > Assume you get two 32-bit integers containing two time values (or
>  > values from an incremental encoder, or counter values). How do you
>  > find out how many timer ticks (or increments, or counts) have occured
>  > between those two values, and which one was earlier? In C, you can
>  > just write:
>  >
>  >    long Distance(long t1, long t0) { return t1-t0; }
>  >
>  > And all the wraparound cases will be handled correctly (assuming there
>  > have been less than 2^31 timer ticks between these two time values).
>  > "Distance" will return a positive value if t1 was measured after t0, a
>  > negative value otherwise, even if there's been a wraparound in
>  > between. Try the same in Python and tell me which version is simpler!
>
> First of all, the whole problem only arises because you are using a
> statically typed counter ;-) And it only is easy in C when your counter
> has 32 bits. But what about a 24 bit counter?

Easy, multiply it with 256 and it's a 32-bit counter ;-)
Fortunately, 24-bit-counters are quite rare. 16-bit or 32-bit counters
on the other hand are quite common, especially when you're working
close to the hardware (where C is at home). All I wanted to point out
is that bounded integers do have their advantages, because some people
in this thread apparently have never stumbled over them.



From cito at online.de  Sun Jun  4 23:14:22 2006
From: cito at online.de (Christoph Zwerschke)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 23:14:22 +0200
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
In-Reply-To: <1149453000.162259.105090@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
	<1149424883.529756.13700@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<e5v8ir$j4j$1@online.de>
	<1149453000.162259.105090@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5vife$53t$1@online.de>

nikie wrote:
 > Hm, then I probably didn't get your original point: I thought your
 > argument was that a dynamically typed language was "safer" because it
 > would choose the "right" type (in your example, an arbitrary-pecision
 > integer) automatically.

No, my point was not to make a general statement. It just stumbled over 
that example and said to myself "that wouldn't have happend with 
Python." And I thought it might be interesting for people on c.l.p as 
well. That was all.

 > As you can see from the above sample, it
 > sometimes picks the "wrong" type, too. Now you tell me that this
 > doesn't count, because I should have told Python what type to use.

Yes. Python did not "pick" that type - you explicitely said that x 
should an int by setting x = 10001.

 > I mean, you could have told Java to used a 64-bit or arbitrary-length
 > integer type instead of a 32-bit integer (which would actually be
 > equivalent to the Python code), so it would do the same thing
 > as the Python binary search implementation.

Right, but then Java would do all index operations in that type, even 
for very small arrays when it's not necessary. That's why people 
probably don't do it.

 > The is OT, but what makes you think a C# decimal can't store 0.01?

A C# data type summary gave me the impression that it was just a more 
accurate but still binary floating point type. But you're right, the 
name "decimal" should have given me a clue that it uses base 10 ;-)

So sorry for the confusion. Forget what I wrote about float. I should 
have corretly written that the equivalent to the C# statement

decimal x = 10001;

is the following Python statement

x = Decimal(10001)

If you do the equivalent thing, Python will give the same result as C#.

 > All I wanted to point out is that bounded integers do have their
 > advantages, because some people in this thread apparently have
 > never stumbled over them.

Sure, I did not want to deny that. The main advantages are speed, and 
dealing with hardware related issues. Your Distance function in C is of 
course much faster than my Python implementation. Surely I wouldn't want 
to write a device driver in Python.

-- Christoph


From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Jun  5 10:22:27 2006
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:22:27 +0200
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
In-Reply-To: <e5v8ir$j4j$1@online.de>
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
	<1149424883.529756.13700@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<e5v8ir$j4j$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <4483E9C3.6090207@v.loewis.de>

Christoph Zwerschke wrote:
> Anyway, in Python, you would first define:
> 
> def wrap(x, at=1<<31):
>     if x < -at:
>         x += at*2
>     elif x >= at:
>         x -= at*2
>     return x
> 
> Then, the Python program would be as simple:
> 
> Distance = lambda t1,t0: wrap(t1-t0)

In Python 2.4 and later, you could write

def Distance(t1, t0, maxint=(1<<32)-1):
  return (t1-t0) & maxint

Like your code, this also extends to 24-bit integers or 64-bit
integers.

Regards,
Martin


From cito at online.de  Mon Jun  5 11:59:36 2006
From: cito at online.de (Christoph Zwerschke)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 11:59:36 +0200
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
In-Reply-To: <4483E9C3.6090207@v.loewis.de>
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
	<1149424883.529756.13700@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
	<e5v8ir$j4j$1@online.de> <4483E9C3.6090207@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <e60va7$9do$1@online.de>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:
> In Python 2.4 and later, you could write
> 
> def Distance(t1, t0, maxint=(1<<32)-1):
>   return (t1-t0) & maxint

No, this function behaves differently. It never returns a negative 
value. The only difference in Python 2.4 is that 1<<32 was 0 before.

-- Christoph


From no at spam.please  Sun Jun  4 16:07:34 2006
From: no at spam.please (D H)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 09:07:34 -0500
Subject: Python less error-prone than Java
In-Reply-To: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
References: <e5sukk$ei4$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <PvydnfcD2be8dB_ZnZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@comcast.com>

Christoph Zwerschke wrote:
> 
> See the following web page if you dont find it ;-)
> http://googleresearch.blogspot.com/2006/06/extra-extra-read-all-about-it-nearly.html 

The point of that is that it did fail.  It threw an 
ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException exception.  But it was just luck that 
happened.  Unfortunately I don't think java and C# have integer overflow 
checking turned on by default.

Take this longArithmetic benchmark here:
http://www.cowell-shah.com/research/benchmark/code
and a story about it here:
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5602&page=3

The java and C# versions are fast (15 seconds for me), BUT, they
give the incorrect result because of an overflow error.
The python version gives the correct result because it transparently
changes the underlying types to handle the larger numbers, BUT this
causes it to run over 20X slower than Java or C#.  It takes 10 minutes
to complete in python, not 15 seconds.  With psyco, it takes 5 minutes.

So to say the story you pointed out shows that python is superior
is a matter of perspective.  Yes, python gave the correct result
by silently changing the underlying types to longs, and that is
what I would expect of a scripting language.  But the price is
speed.  In both these cases, I would rather be made aware of the
error in the code and fix it so I didn't have to suffer slowdowns.

That is why in boo ( http://boo.codehaus.org/ ) luckily overflow 
checking is enabled by default, and it throws a overflow exception at
runtime to tell you something is wrong with your code.  When you
then fix for that, you get the same 15 second time just like java
and C#.


From cga2000 at optonline.net  Sun Jun  4 00:00:32 2006
From: cga2000 at optonline.net (cga2000)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 18:00:32 -0400
Subject: Python & ncurses
Message-ID: <20060603220032.GA18469@turki.gavron.org>

Can anyone recommend a nice sample application that demonstrates the
capabilities of python+ncurses and a clean/elegant UI?

Thanks,

cga


From ldo at geek-central.gen.new_zealand  Sun Jun  4 01:19:37 2006
From: ldo at geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 11:19:37 +1200
Subject: So what would Python be?
Message-ID: <e5t5db$nh2$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>

<http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030225&mode=classic>

Just wondering...


From aisaac0 at verizon.net  Sun Jun  4 02:02:25 2006
From: aisaac0 at verizon.net (David Isaac)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 00:02:25 GMT
Subject: FreeImagePy and PIL
Message-ID: <lqpgg.1909$9c7.1709@trnddc06>

I am just starting to think about image processing.
What are the overlaps and differences in intended
functionality between FreeImagePy and PIL?

Thanks,
Alan Isaac




From michele.petrazzo at TOGLIunipex.it  Mon Jun  5 09:42:09 2006
From: michele.petrazzo at TOGLIunipex.it (Michele Petrazzo)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 07:42:09 GMT
Subject: FreeImagePy and PIL
In-Reply-To: <lqpgg.1909$9c7.1709@trnddc06>
References: <lqpgg.1909$9c7.1709@trnddc06>
Message-ID: <lfRgg.24511$cX1.385904@twister2.libero.it>

David Isaac wrote:
> I am just starting to think about image processing. What are the 
> overlaps and differences in intended functionality between 
> FreeImagePy and PIL?
> 
> Thanks, Alan Isaac
> 
> 

http://tinyurl.com/m5kal

For any other questions, I'm here :)


Bye,
Michele


From alikakakhel at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  4 02:46:49 2006
From: alikakakhel at yahoo.com (greenflame)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 17:46:49 -0700
Subject: reordering elements of a list
Message-ID: <1149382009.640607.217470@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

I am trying to reorder elements of a list and I am stuck as to what
might be the best way to approach this. I have a (main) list of
elements and another (ordering) list (which is may shorter,  but not
longer than the main list) which contains the order in which I want the
elements of the main list but only as far along as the length of the
ordering list. This may be confusing so I will try to give an example.

Suppose the main list is: mainlist = list('qwertyuiop')

Suppose the ordering list is: orderinglist = [3, 4, 2, 1]

Then I am looking for a function that will take mainlist and
orderinglist as arguments and return the following list:

['e', 'r', 'w', 'q', 't', 'y', 'u', 'i', 'o', 'p']

Also by the way the main list is always going to be a list of strings
and the ordering list will be a list of numbers. Also the largest
number in orderinglist will always be equal to the length of
orderinglist. I hope this makes any sense. Thanks for your help.



From oliphant.travis at ieee.org  Sun Jun  4 03:03:52 2006
From: oliphant.travis at ieee.org (Travis E. Oliphant)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 19:03:52 -0600
Subject: reordering elements of a list
In-Reply-To: <1149382009.640607.217470@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149382009.640607.217470@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5tbhq$o9r$1@sea.gmane.org>

greenflame wrote:
> I am trying to reorder elements of a list and I am stuck as to what
> might be the best way to approach this. I have a (main) list of
> elements and another (ordering) list (which is may shorter,  but not
> longer than the main list) which contains the order in which I want the
> elements of the main list but only as far along as the length of the
> ordering list. This may be confusing so I will try to give an example.
> 
> Suppose the main list is: mainlist = list('qwertyuiop')
> 
> Suppose the ordering list is: orderinglist = [3, 4, 2, 1]
> 
> Then I am looking for a function that will take mainlist and
> orderinglist as arguments and return the following list:
> 
> ['e', 'r', 'w', 'q', 't', 'y', 'u', 'i', 'o', 'p']
> 
> Also by the way the main list is always going to be a list of strings
> and the ordering list will be a list of numbers. Also the largest
> number in orderinglist will always be equal to the length of
> orderinglist. I hope this makes any sense. Thanks for your help.
> 

NumPy ( http://numeric.scipy.org )  can do this using element-based 
indexing on an array of strings.

Your example:

import numpy
a = numpy.array('qwertyuiop','c')
newlist = a[[2,3,1,0]+range(4,10)].tolist()
print newlist

Returns:

['e', 'r', 'w', 'q', 't', 'y', 'u', 'i', 'o', 'p']


But you can also do it with list comprehension pretty easily, so this is 
probably just a shameless plug for NumPy :-)


-Travis



From rbonvall at gmail.com  Sun Jun  4 03:06:12 2006
From: rbonvall at gmail.com (Roberto Bonvallet)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 21:06:12 -0400
Subject: reordering elements of a list
In-Reply-To: <1149382009.640607.217470@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149382009.640607.217470@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1908cb6b0606031806g5a98cbdax6c73c2ce1915bc3d@mail.gmail.com>

3 Jun 2006 17:46:49 -0700, greenflame <alikakakhel at yahoo.com>:
> Suppose the main list is: mainlist = list('qwertyuiop')
>
> Suppose the ordering list is: orderinglist = [3, 4, 2, 1]
>
> Then I am looking for a function that will take mainlist and
> orderinglist as arguments and return the following list:
>
> ['e', 'r', 'w', 'q', 't', 'y', 'u', 'i', 'o', 'p']

>>> mainlist = list('qwertyuiop')
>>> orderinglist = [3, 4, 2, 1]
>>> [mainlist[i - 1] for i in orderinglist] + mainlist[len(orderinglist):]
['e', 'r', 'w', 'q', 't', 'y', 'u', 'i', 'o', 'p']

Best regards.
-- 
Roberto Bonvallet


From cito at online.de  Sun Jun  4 04:06:30 2006
From: cito at online.de (Christoph Zwerschke)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 04:06:30 +0200
Subject: reordering elements of a list
In-Reply-To: <1149382009.640607.217470@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149382009.640607.217470@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5tf76$5id$1@online.de>

greenflame wrote:
> Suppose the main list is: mainlist = list('qwertyuiop')
> Suppose the ordering list is: orderinglist = [3, 4, 2, 1]
> 
> Then I am looking for a function that will take mainlist and
> orderinglist as arguments and return the following list:
> 
> ['e', 'r', 'w', 'q', 't', 'y', 'u', 'i', 'o', 'p']
> 
> Also by the way the main list is always going to be a list of strings
> and the ordering list will be a list of numbers. Also the largest
> number in orderinglist will always be equal to the length of
> orderinglist. I hope this makes any sense. Thanks for your help.

The following will do:

map(lambda c, i: i and mainlist[i-1] or c, mainlist, orderinglist)

-- Christoph


From alikakakhel at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  4 05:01:15 2006
From: alikakakhel at yahoo.com (greenflame)
Date: 3 Jun 2006 20:01:15 -0700
Subject: reordering elements of a list
In-Reply-To: <1149382009.640607.217470@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149382009.640607.217470@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149390075.653265.193370@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Thank you all for your replies. The only thing is I do not understand
how the code is working. The following are more particular questions.

Travis: Iam sorry, but I do not know what list comprehension is.
Roberto: I do not understand the first half of the last line of your
code. Also thank you for also teaching me to use '+' to append one list
to another. This will be very useful for me.
Christoph: I do not undertand the map method.

Thanks again for all the help. :)



From robert.kern at gmail.com  Sun Jun  4 05:16:30 2006
From: robert.kern at gmail.com (Robert Kern)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 22:16:30 -0500
Subject: reordering elements of a list
In-Reply-To: <1149390075.653265.193370@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149382009.640607.217470@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149390075.653265.193370@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5tjae$7i4$1@sea.gmane.org>

greenflame wrote:
> Thank you all for your replies. The only thing is I do not understand
> how the code is working. The following are more particular questions.

Actually, these are statements, not questions. But anyways:

> Travis: Iam sorry, but I do not know what list comprehension is.
> Roberto: I do not understand the first half of the last line of your
> code.

That's what a list comprehension is.

> Also thank you for also teaching me to use '+' to append one list
> to another. This will be very useful for me.
> Christoph: I do not undertand the map method.

There is documentation on map() about halfway down this page:

  http://docs.python.org/lib/built-in-funcs.html

Here's a tutorial which you should read:

  http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html

-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
 that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
 an underlying truth."
  -- Umberto Eco



From rbonvall at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 02:05:01 2006
From: rbonvall at gmail.com (Roberto Bonvallet)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 20:05:01 -0400
Subject: reordering elements of a list
In-Reply-To: <1149390075.653265.193370@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149382009.640607.217470@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
	<1149390075.653265.193370@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1908cb6b0606041705r308fea60rae2e0fb6adee3115@mail.gmail.com>

greenflame <alikakakhel at yahoo.com>:
> Roberto: I do not understand the first half of the last line of your
> code.

[mainlist[i - 1] for i in orderinglist] is a list made with the
elements of orderinglist, but instead of taking the actual value i
from the list, the value that is taken is mainlist[i - 1].

If orderinglist is [3, 4, 2, 1], then [mainlist[i - 1] for i in
orderinglist] is:

    [mainlist[3 - 1], mainlist[4 - 1], mainlist[2 - 1], mainlist[1 - 1]]

Remember that indexing starts from 0.
-- 
Roberto Bonvallet


From alikakakhel at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  5 18:53:20 2006
From: alikakakhel at yahoo.com (greenflame)
Date: 5 Jun 2006 09:53:20 -0700
Subject: reordering elements of a list
In-Reply-To: <1149382009.640607.217470@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
References: <1149382009.640607.217470@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1149526400.739601.178280@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>

Thanks all for your help!



From jb at cascade-sys.com  Sun Jun  4 03:36:14 2006
From: jb at cascade-sys.com (James J. Besemer)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 18:36:14 -0700
Subject: Proposed new PEP: print to expand generators
Message-ID: <4482390E.7060809@cascade-sys.com>


I would like to champion a proposed enhancement to Python.  I describe the 
basic idea below, in order to gage community interest.  Right now, it's only 
an idea, and I'm sure there's room for improvement.  And of course it's 
possible there's some serious "gotcha" I've overlooked.  Thus I welcome any 
and all comments.

If there's some agreement that this proposal is worth further consideration 
then I'll re-submit a formal document in official PEP format.

Regards

--jb

PEP -- EXTEND PRINT TO EXPAND GENERATORS

NUTSHELL

I propose that we extend the semantics of "print" such that if the object to 
be printed is a generator then print would iterate over the resulting 
sequence of sub-objects and recursively print each of the items in order.

E.g.,

	print obj

under the proposal would behave something like

	import types

	if type( obj ) == types.GeneratorType:
		for item in obj:
			print item,	# recursive call
		print			# trailing newline
	else:
		print obj		# existing  print behavior

I know this isn't precisely how print would work, but I intentionally 
simplified the illustration to emphasize the intended change.  Nevertheless, 
several points above expressly are part of this proposal (subject to 
discussion and possible revision):

	Print behavior does not change EXCEPT in the case
	that the object being printed is a generator.

	Enumerated items are printed with intervening spaces
	[alternatively: "" or "\n"].

	An enumerated sequence ends with a newline
	[alternatively: "" or " "].

Iterators themselves could return iterators as elements, and the proposed 
change to print would recursively serialize any arbitrary "tree" of iterators.

__str__() for complex user-defined objects then could return iterators, and 
arbitrarily complex structures could be printed out without glomming 
everything into a huge string -- only to throw it away in the end.

I expect we likely also would want to modify str() itself to embody this 
serialization behavior.  This additional change would support those cases 
where one actually does want the single large string in the end, say, to 
store into a UI widget.  Still, the string would be constructed once at the 
end, much more efficiently than by building a bunch of smaller, intermediate 
strings.

Then, in an abstract sense, we would not  be changing print at all -- the new 
semantics would be embodied in the change to str().  However, in practice, 
we'd also want to modify print, as an important optimization for a more 
common use case.

The present behavior (displaying, e.g., "<generator object at 0x016BA288>") 
would still be available via

	print repr( generator )

Note that this behavior presently results from all three of:

	print generator
	print str( generator )
	print repr( generator )

So, this proposal merely ascribes useful new semantics to the first two of 
three redundant language constructs.

MOTIVATION

With increasingly complex objects, the print representation naturally becomes 
more complex.  In particular, when an object consists of a collection of 
sub-objects, it's natural for it's string representation to be defined 
recursively in terms of the sub-components' string representations, with some 
further indication of how they're held together.

This is possible to do with the __str__ overload and the existing print 
semantics.  However, existing semantics require constructing many otherwise 
unnecessary intermediate strings, and, as such, is grossly inefficient. 
Worse, each intermediate string is generally the catenation of several 
previous intermediaries, so the volume of intermediate results steadily 
increases throughout the conversion.  Finally, the cost of string operations 
is proportional to the length of the strings in question, so I expect the 
overall cost increases significantly faster than in direct proportion to the 
size of the output (i.e. it's non-linear).

E.g., instances of the following classes can become arbitrarily expensive to 
print out:

	def HtmlTable( object ):
		# ...
	def __str__( self ):
		return ( "<table"
			+ str( self.attr )
			+ ">\n"
			+ "".join([ str( row ) for row in self.head ])
			+ "".join([ str( row ) for row in self.rows ])
			+ "</table>\n" )

	def HtmlRow( object ):
		# ...
	def __str__( self ):
		return ( "<tr"
			+ str( self.attr )
			+ ">\n"
			+ "".join([ str( cell ) for cell in self.cells ])
			+ "</tr>\n" )

	def HtmlCell( object ):
		# ...
	def __str__( self ):
		return ( "<td"
			+ str( self.attr )
			+ ">\n"
			+ "".join([ str( datum ) for datum in self.data ])
			+ "</td>\n" )

Clearly, printing an arbitrary HtmlTable might require a LOT of unnecessary 
string manipulation.

Using the proposed extension, the above example could be implemented instead 
as something like:

	def HtmlTable( object ):
		# ...
	def __str__( self ):
		yield "<table"
		yield str( self.attr )
		yield ">\n"
		for row in self.head:
			yield str( row )
		for row in self.rows:
			yield str( row )
		yield "</table>\n"

	def HtmlRow( object ):
		# ...
	def __str__( self ):
		yield "<tr"
		yield str( self.attr )
		yield ">\n"
		for cell in self.cells:
			yield str( cell )
		yield "</tr>\n"


	def HtmlCell( object ):
		# ...
	def __str__( self ):
		yield "<td"
		yield str( self.attr )
		yield ">\n"
		for datum in self.data:
			yield str( datum )
		yield "</td>\n"

With the new extension, the individual bits of data are simply output in the 
proper order, virtually eliminating unnecessary string operations, resulting 
in a huge performance improvement.  In fact, in the common case where all of 
the leaf nodes are literal strings, then the entire HTML table (or page!) 
could be written out without any string manipulation -- the existing strings 
are simply written out from their present locations in memory!

Furthermore, there's greater clarity and economy of expression in the 
proposed new method.

The primary motivation behind this proposal is to eliminate unnecessary 
overhead, while retaining all the convenience of the existing semantics of 
string representations of custom objects.

While it's not 100% backwards compatible, it assigns a new meaning to one of 
several redundant and little-used, existing language constructs.


ALTERNATIVES

In lieu of the proposed change, users can define their own auxiliary function 
to generate the output.  E.g.:

	def HtmlTable( object ):
		# ...
	def pr( self, stream=sys.stdout ):
		"<table"
		print >>stream, str( self.attr )
		print >>stream, ">\n"
		for row in self.head:
			print >>stream, row
		row in self.rows:
			print >>stream, row
		print >>stream, "</table>"

I myself have successfully used this technique in a variety of applications.

Pro:
	Requires no changes to Python

Con:
	The solution has to be "hand crafted" in each case,
	subject to user errors.

	The solution only works if user expressly maintains the
	convention throughout his class hierarchy.

	The solution is not interchangeable with objects
	from other authors.

///





From roy at panix.com  Sun Jun  4 04:02:29 2006
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 22:02:29 -0400
Subject: Proposed new PEP: print to expand generators
References: <mailman.6510.1149386134.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-6D3F98.22022903062006@reader1.panix.com>

In article <mailman.6510.1149386134.27775.python-list at python.org>,
 "James J. Besemer" <jb at cascade-sys.com> wrote:

> I propose that we extend the semantics of "print" such that if the object to 
> be printed is a generator then print would iterate over the resulting 
> sequence of sub-objects and recursively print each of the items in order.

I believe the functionality you desire already exists, or something very 
close to it, in the pprint (pretty printer) module.


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Sun Jun  4 04:42:25 2006
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 20:42:25 -0600
Subject: Proposed new PEP: print to expand generators
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6510.1149386134.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6510.1149386134.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <FpKdnX5nA-QJ1R_ZnZ2dnUVZ_tednZ2d@comcast.com>

James J. Besemer wrote:
> I propose that we extend the semantics of "print" such that if the 
> object to be printed is a generator then print would iterate over the 
> resulting sequence of sub-objects and recursively print each of the 
> items in order.

I don't feel like searching for the specific python-dev threads right 
now, but something like this has been suggested before (I think with a 
"%i" formatting code), and Guido felt strongly that the addition or 
removal of a simple print statement shouldn't change the behavior of the 
surrounding code.

Consider code like::

     items = get_generator_or_None()
     for item in items:
         do_something(item)

Now let's say I insert a debugging line like::

     items = get_generator_or_None()
     print "make sure this isn't None:", items
     for item in items:
         do_something(item)

My debugging line now just broke the rest of my code.  That's not good.


The other reason I don't think this PEP should go forward (at least as 
it is) is that Python 3000 is already going to turn the print statement 
into a function (though the exact details of that function have not been 
hashed out yet).  So adding extra cruft to the print statement is kind 
of wasted effort.

STeVe


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Mon Jun  5 04:33:48 2006
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 04:33:48 +0200
Subject: Proposed new PEP: print to expand generators
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6510.1149386134.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.6510.1149386134.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <44836870$0$10284$636a55ce@news.free.fr>

James J. Besemer a ?crit :
> 
(snip)
> 
> PEP -- EXTEND PRINT TO EXPAND GENERATORS
> 
> NUTSHELL
> 
> I propose that we extend the semantics of "print" such that if the 
> object to be printed is a generator then print would iterate over the 
> resulting sequence of sub-objects and recursively print each of the 
> items in order.
> 

Please, don't:

from itertools import cycle
def mygen():
     return cycle('this is a very bad idea'.split())




From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Jun  4 04:02:55 2006
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 22:02:55 -0400
Subject: Proposed new PEP: print to expand generators
References: <4482390E.7060809@cascade-sys.com>
Message-ID: <e5tf0f$uro$1@sea.gmane.org>


"James J. Besemer" <jb at cascade-sys.com> wrote in message 
news:4482390E.7060809 at cascade-sys.com...
> I propose that we extend the semantics of "print" such that if the object 
> to
> be printed is a generator then print would iterate over the resulting
> sequence of sub-objects and recursively print each of the items in order.

A generator is an iterator produced by a generator function rather than a 
class.  What treat them differently?

Iterating over an iterator is usually destructive.  So you would be 
printing what it was but no longer is.  This is why iterators are printed 
differently from sequences.

Terry Jan Reedy





From mwilson-to at sympatico.ca  Sun Jun  4 17:42:04 2006
From: mwilson-to at sympatico.ca (Mel Wilson)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 11:42:04 -0400
Subject: Proposed new PEP: print to expand generators
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6511.1149386599.27775.python-list@python.org>
References: <4482390E.7060809@cascade-sys.com>
	<mailman.6511.1149386599.27775.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ibDgg.74$LV.7874@news20.bellglobal.com>

Terry Reedy wrote:
> "James J. Besemer" <jb at cascade-sys.com> wrote in message 
> news:4482390E.7060809 at cascade-sys.com...
>> I propose that we extend the semantics of "print" such that if the object 
>> to
>> be printed is a generator then print would iterate over the resulting
>> sequence of sub-objects and recursively print each of the items in order.
> Iterating over an iterator is usually destructive.  So you would be 
> printing what it was but no longer is.  This is why iterators are printed 
> differently from sequences.

I guess the motivation is the case of people who would set 
up an iterator specifically to print from it.

print-as-debug-aid would get badly broken by the proposal, 
and I'd find that painful.

         Mel.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Jun  4 21:09:32 2006
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 15:09:32 -0400
Subject: Proposed new PEP: print to expand generators
References: <4482390E.7060809@cascade-sys.com><mailman.6511.1149386599.27775.python-list@python.org>
	<ibDgg.74$LV.7874@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <e5vb5c$mhv$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Mel Wilson" <mwilson-to at sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
news:ibDgg.74$LV.7874 at news20.bellglobal.com...
> I guess the motivation is the case of people who would set
> up an iterator specifically to print from it.

for i in gen: print i,
print

is rather trivial and gives one the option to control formatting however.

tjr





From nexu.jin at gmail.com  Sun Jun  4 05:57:13 2006
From: nexu.jin at gmail.com (Nexu)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 05:57:13 +0200
Subject: Hostmask matching
Message-ID: <1149393433.5979.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>

I'm trying to write a def to match a string tha