[Pythonmac-SIG] New Page, first proposal

[Chris Porter]

(snip)
> 
> Then we need Pointers to download pages for packages:
> 
> One page for the 10.3 build.

How does a build differ from a system?
 
> One page for the 10.4 build.
> 
> Maybe a link to a page with all the other packages that are no at
> pythonmac.org/packages
> 
> 
> > 2. Would it be legitimate to start the page off with a little list of
> >  things to do for those who get worried by too many choices?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > For me, the list would be (1) get Bob's framework (2) pick and
> > install an IDE
> 
> Given the state of IDEs and their installers, don't start there. Start
> with a the terminal and a text editor.
> 
> > (3) go  get one of the following books or read the following
> > instructional sites.
> 
> Or point them to:
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide
> 
> > 3. Once this sketch is fleshed out fully enough to be not misleading,
> > I fear that keeping it on a single page may get cumbersome. If that 
> > happens, do we prefer a couple of sequential pages ("Next…") or some
> >  kind of branch?
> 
> I think I answered that: One page and the rest in the Wiki, except the
> download pages.
> 
> > Somebody who comes idly to the idea of programming in Python, and 
> > finds the pythonmac page, will be happy if the result is an 
> > afternoon's work that ends in a "hello world," possibly in a window.
> >  Using my own arbitrary preferences, that would entail:
> > 
> > 1. downloading & installing Bob's framework 2. downloading &
> > installing TigerPython24Fix 3. adding /usr/local/bin to the PATH
> 
> We really should build an installer that does the three of these at once
> (with the PATH editing optional). I have no idea how to do that, though.
> 
> > 4. downloading & installing wxPython
> I don't think wxPython is that starting point. And I'm a big wxPython fan.
> 
> > 5. downloading & installing [fill in name of IDE]
> 
> Until there is one robust enough to really recommend, we're not there
> yet. How's SPE doing on the mac these days? Also, different IDEs are
> different, they each need their own tutorial, ideally one Mac-centered,
> but that's no our job.
> 
> I do think a little "getting started" tutorial with a editor and the
> command line is a good idea, however. enough that they can read one of
> the intro books and know what to do.
> 
> Bill Janssen wrote:
> 
> > Who wants to open windows?  Why is a GUI automatically necessary?
> 
> I agree, it's not. And if your goal is web programming, it never will be.
> 
> > And if it is, all you need is already there on 10.4
> 
> Here's where I'm not sure. I do like that it's this easy, and I know the
> fact that python comes with OS-X has been good marketing for me in my
> organization.
> 
> As for the Apple-supplied Python. Yes, it's fine. I used it for a good
> while. However, it really is getting pretty old. That isn't a problem in
> and of itself, but people are now making third-party packages that
> require 2.4, and most of the people building and distributing binaries
> are doing it for 2.4.1 also. While it's easier for a newbie to get
> started with the built-in python, they may well hit a brick wall soon.
> 
> I think that anyone doing any real work with Python is going to need use
> a third party package pretty soon in the game. As they can't use only
> pre-installed stuff, it's not that big a deal for them to install a new
> python as well, if we make it easy.
> 
> I'm a bit wary of saying to newbies: "Here you go, look how easy this
> is!", then when they start doing more, saying: "By the way, no that
> you're really doing something real, you need to go do this extra stuff"
> 
> I'm not convinced about this. I may vote for a link near the top of the
> main page labeled "The ultra-quick easy intro to Python", to a Wiki page
> with this:
> 
> , in three minutes:
> > 1)  Click on Applications/Utilities/Terminal.
> > 
> > 2)  In the terminal window, enter the following line:
> > 
> > % pythonw


I tried typing in python, and got the same response as typing in pythonw.
Then I tried "pythonx" "pythona" and "pythong", all of which got me 
something like this:

-bash: pythona: command not found

Be nice to know why only some letters after 'python' are allowed.



> > 3)  You will see a prompt ">>>".  At the prompt, enter the following
> > line:
> > 
> >>>> print "Hello, World!"
> > 
> > and you will see "Hello, World!" written back to you.

>>> print "Hellow Wordl"
Hellow Wordl

(pretty obvious why I'm not a programmer) 


> > 4)  To do this in a window, enter the following lines at the ">>>"
> > prompt:


What? What window? Any window? Is window some particular
application?

> >>>> import wx app = wx.PySimpleApp() frame = wx.Frame(None, -1,
> >>>> "Hello World").Show(1) app.MainLoop()


Tried this in a Terminal (window), this is what I got:

>>> import wx app = wx.PySimpleApp() frame = wx.Frame(None, -1,"Hello World").Show(1) app.MainLoop()
  File "<stdin>", line 1
    import wx app = wx.PySimpleApp() frame = wx.Frame(None, -1,"Hello World").Show(1) app.MainLoop()
                  ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax

(tried it in BBEdit, in an unsaved window, got an "This file doesn’t appear to contain a valid
‘shebang’ line (application error code: 26304)")
Saved it to disk as "Text.py" and tried reopening it and clicking "run" in BBEdit, got this:
"/Users/chris/Desktop/Text.py:1:  SyntaxError: invalid syntax"


> > That's it!

Hmmmm.

Perhaps there's some threshold of knowledge I've not obtained (yes, pretty obviously),
but what I'm getting at is perhaps there could be something on the page that says,

"For users of this page, we are going to assume you know:
That python is a programming language.
That window means...
That you are generally familiar with the Terminal app
That you know how to construct a program and save it to disk, and run it.
That ...."


> Then maybe a little discussion of why (and when) one might want to
> download a newer Python. Also a pointer back to the page that discusses
> what GUI toolkit tone might want to use.
> 
> > *Don't* deprecate the Apple pre-installed Python!  Rejoice in it!
> > And then hint that even better things are available in 2.4.x...
> 
> I think it needs to be a strong suggestion, rather than a hint. A big
> part of this is that having a large collection of pre-built packages is
> key, and I don't see that happening for Apple's Python.
> 
> 
> -Chris
>