<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">OK, here's the first donkey -- please step up to the line & fire when ready.<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>The project is to build a new front page for pythonmac.org that will serve as a welcome and introduction for anyone who wants to write Python programs on the Mac. (An assumption behind this is that the site will come up quickly in any curious person's search for information on the topic, which in turn assumes a link from python.org, and also I hope a prominent one slapped onto the top of the MacPython site.)<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>For a page title that covers the ground broadly and accurately, I propose</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>Python on the Mac</DIV><DIV>Problems with that? Better suggestions?</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Four stages in the project are foreseeable:</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>1. Establish the basic organization of the page</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>2. Collect the essential technical data, and probably also less essential materials </DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>to be relegated to secondary pages</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>3. Produce some friendly prose</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>4. Build the html for the page</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>#4 is fun, and I wouldn't mind doing it in DreamWeaver if nobody else has better tools and skills. #3 is easy enough, though checking it for accuracy needs to be a community effort. I am not competent to do #2, but this list is full of people who are.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Here I'm proposing an approach to #1. <SPAN class="Apple-style-span">I suggest the page be organized by audience, and that it begin by addressing the needs of users most in danger of being scared off. (Obviously what follows is <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="text-decoration: underline;">not</SPAN> the friendly-prose stage -- just a stab at a logical organization.)</SPAN></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>===== the Python-on-the-Mac page =======================</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-style-span">[1] "If you're a Mac user who wants to learn to write Python programs":</SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-style-span"><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>note Apple distro, be politely disparaging toward it, provide links to</SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>Bob's framework, with notes (how extensive is this?) on other stuff required</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>ActiveState's framework, with similar notes</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>provide links to</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>how-to-program sites</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>how-to-program-in-Python sites</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>how-to-program-for-the-Mac sites</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>[2] "If you want an editor or full-fledged IDE (rather than using the Terminal)":</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>provide links, with brief descriptions, to</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>Wing IDE</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>BBEdit/TextWrangler</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>??</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>discuss briefly the non-terrors of working in the Terminal</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>[3] "If you want to write programs with windows and buttons":</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>discuss why libraries would be helpful</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>provide links, with brief descriptions, to</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>wxPython</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>TKinter</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>??</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>[4] "If your programs need other specialized tools":</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>provide links, with brief descriptions, to</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>PIL</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>Numeric</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>SciPy</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>[5] "If you want to write C (or other) extensions, or embed Python, or …":</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>Describe the current state of considerations about target Mac system (10.3, 10.4,</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>Intel)</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>Provide links to</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>PyObjC</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>??</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>=========================================</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>A couple of questions right off the bat:</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>1. I'm not at all clear whether it's necessary to address the question of platform (is the user running 10.3 or 10.4? does the sub-version matter?) before that last, extensions stage. How many packages under [3] or [4], for example, require a certain OS version? If we don't need to address this before [5] (whose audience won't have trouble with it), that's very very good: it saves a lot of combinatoric mess. If we do, then can it be a sidebar on the page? How much of a decision tree is there, or does there have to be?</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>2. Would it be legitimate to start the page off with a little list of things to do for those who get worried by too many choices? For me, the list would be (1) get Bob's framework (2) pick and install an IDE (3) go get one of the following books or read the following instructional sites. Beginning with a list seems too arbitrary. But it really mustn't take the reader long to deduce that last for herself/himself.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>3. Once this sketch is fleshed out fully enough to be not misleading, I fear that keeping it on a single page may get cumbersome. If that happens, do we prefer a couple of sequential pages ("Next…") or some kind of branch? A hard question before we get there -- but the kind of thing that it would be helpful to decide early, for reasons don't have to explain to programmers, though I have to explain them to my students frequently.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Charles</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>