On 30 March 2018 at 20:27, INADA Naoki wrote:

Hi,

Nowadays, joining to IRC is a hurdle for new contributors. There are some alternative, modern web applications:

* Slack -- Most used for tech communities. * Discord -- Similar to slack. It is focusing game, but support OSS too. [1] * Gitter -- Most integrated with Github. typing, mypy, pip use it already.

While pip does have a room on Gitter, I'm not sure how active it actually is. Another option well worth considering here is Zulip: https://zulipchat.com/for/open-source/ While the original startup got acquihired by Dropbox back in 2014, a new supporting startup was formed in mid-2016 (https://zulipchat.com/team/) after some successful community engagement efforts at the PyCon US sprints (https://zulipchat.com/history/) One challenge to be overcome is that these rooms are really only useful to newcomers if they can find existing contributors there, and for existing contributors, the newer services don't tend to offer any especially compelling advantages over IRC, which makes it hard to successfully convince folks to change how they make themselves available for real time discussions. IRC gateways tend not be an especially compelling feature from a commercial perspective (e.g. Slack are shutting their IRC bridge down [1]), but Zulip do offer scripts that support bidirectional mirroring of messages, and are interested in improving that capability: https://github.com/zulip/python-zulip-api/issues/106 Independently of the idea of a more modern real-time chat service, I'll note that IRC web gateways do provide some potential for near term mitigation, and we do link to https://webchat.freenode.net/ from https://devguide.python.org/communication/#irc. However, the link is pretty terse, and the login form presents an IRC-centric view of the world which is quite different from what most folks will have come to expect from a web service. The sign-up process for IRCCloud might be a bit more familiar to folks, and offers the advantage that we could link directly to the python-dev channel with an ordinary HTTPS URL: https://www.irccloud.com/irc/freenode/channel/python-dev (I haven't checked the full sign-up flow with the direct link, so that may still be a bit convoluted, but once you do have an account, the link takes you directly to the channel after you log in). Cheers, Nick. [1] https://pythondev.slack.com/account/gateways -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia

I would, at least initially, advise against Slack. I constantly hear people decry its growing use in open source communities for a mix of two reasons. The first seems to come from strong IRC proponents, with the general complaint of "it's not open," and getting into the whole "your data is not your data" idea, especially with recent changes to Slack with regards to privacy. The second seems to come from the inability to really get away from Slack. Their notification system is pretty rudimentary, in that there's not much fine tuning to be done and most people I've talked with are either overloaded with things to care about or mute everything and only manually check channels. There's an additional problem in that you can never fully be away from Slack. Their "Do Not Disturb" settings can't stretch for more than 24 hours (something they do not appear eager to change as they're asked about this quite often), so you need to go out of your way to do something about the weekend to get some time away from work. However, I'm not really familiar with the initial problem of people joining IRC. Rather, one I'm familiar with regards to IRC is the problem of replicating things like Slack—or at least the ability to receive messages while offline—such as using/buying/hosting an IRC bouncer. Can you speak more about what brought you to propose a change here? I wonder if this is something we can just solve while continuing to use IRC? On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 6:27 AM, INADA Naoki wrote:

Hi,

Nowadays, joining to IRC is a hurdle for new contributors. There are some alternative, modern web applications:

* Slack -- Most used for tech communities. * Discord -- Similar to slack. It is focusing game, but support OSS too. [1] * Gitter -- Most integrated with Github. typing, mypy, pip use it already.

[1] https://discordapp.com/open-source

I know adding communication channel is not good always. (We couldn't keep https://discuss.python.org/) But I think IRC is really high hurdle for young people.

How about trying one of them? (maybe, gitter?)

Regards,

-- INADA Naoki _______________________________________________ core-workflow mailing list -- core-workflow@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to core-workflow-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/core-workflow.python.org/ This list is governed by the PSF Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct

Speaking to my own experience, I have never gotten involved in IRC because I don't want to have pay for a reflector to know who mentioned me, I don't want to maintain a server just to have a reflector for free, and I don't want or have a PC to leave on 24/7 to simply stay connected. I personally wouldn't want to switch to Slack because I don't think it handles large communities that well. The Dropbox-led projects are on gitter I think because they lack mailing lists -- on purpose -- and some things don't call for a GitHub issue (which is their preferred way to communicate). The last time I looked into this idea the conclusion I reached was Zulip or Discourse. I do worry about the accessibility of IRC for new people, but I also have the same worry about email as more of people's personal communication move away from it and thus people just aren't set up handle any sort of volume of email. Consider the fact that a standard answer to a lack of email threading on any of the major email providers is to use gmane's NNTP gateway. I don't think people realize that anyone who post-dates the '90s has no clue what that acronym represents and thus poses the same barriers as setting up IRC. And then asking folks to install a desktop app like Thunderbird just for their open source email is also an odd request to be making when there are web-based options. So for me, the first question is are we just considering alternatives to the "IRC problem" or are we trying to solve the "new contributors who were born in the 2000s problem" (for which the latter subsumes the former)? My guess is the former as tackling the latter is a major undertaking due to people who will only let go of email when they are dead. And in that instance my vote is for Zulip if we can get them to donate free hosting. On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 06:36 Brian Curtin, wrote:

I would, at least initially, advise against Slack.

I constantly hear people decry its growing use in open source communities for a mix of two reasons. The first seems to come from strong IRC proponents, with the general complaint of "it's not open," and getting into the whole "your data is not your data" idea, especially with recent changes to Slack with regards to privacy. The second seems to come from the inability to really get away from Slack. Their notification system is pretty rudimentary, in that there's not much fine tuning to be done and most people I've talked with are either overloaded with things to care about or mute everything and only manually check channels. There's an additional problem in that you can never fully be away from Slack. Their "Do Not Disturb" settings can't stretch for more than 24 hours (something they do not appear eager to change as they're asked about this quite often), so you need to go out of your way to do something about the weekend to get some time away from work.

However, I'm not really familiar with the initial problem of people joining IRC. Rather, one I'm familiar with regards to IRC is the problem of replicating things like Slack—or at least the ability to receive messages while offline—such as using/buying/hosting an IRC bouncer. Can you speak more about what brought you to propose a change here? I wonder if this is something we can just solve while continuing to use IRC?

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 6:27 AM, INADA Naoki wrote:

...

Hi,

Nowadays, joining to IRC is a hurdle for new contributors. There are some alternative, modern web applications:

* Slack -- Most used for tech communities. * Discord -- Similar to slack. It is focusing game, but support OSS too. [1] * Gitter -- Most integrated with Github. typing, mypy, pip use it already.

[1] https://discordapp.com/open-source

I know adding communication channel is not good always. (We couldn't keep https://discuss.python.org/) But I think IRC is really high hurdle for young people.

How about trying one of them? (maybe, gitter?)

Regards,

-- INADA Naoki _______________________________________________ core-workflow mailing list -- core-workflow@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to core-workflow-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/core-workflow.python.org/ This list is governed by the PSF Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct

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I've also got confirmation from Tim Abbott (ZulipChat cofounder) that they'd be happy to host us and would even prioritize features they want. Who's interested in making this happen?We should start with an experiment, and it would be good to create a plan for evaluating success. If you want to help out, please volunteer to write up such a plan -- implementation will be easy. On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 11:44 AM, Aaron Ang wrote:

...

So for me, the first question is are we just considering alternatives to

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 9:25 AM, Brett Cannon wrote: the

...

"IRC problem" or are we trying to solve the "new contributors who were born in the 2000s problem" (for which the latter subsumes the former)? My guess is the former as tackling the latter is a major undertaking due to people who will only let go of email when they are dead. And in that instance my vote is for Zulip if we can get them to donate free hosting.

It seems that Zulip offers free hosting:

"Do you have special plans for open source projects, non-profits, groups of friends, and other non-commercial entities?

Yes! Zulip Cloud Premium is free for open source projects and a wide variety of non-commercial entities. We also often offer steep discounts to educational institutions, and in other scenarios where users are not being paid a salary. Just contact sales@zulipchat.com and we'd be happy to discuss your situation! You may also be interested in Zulip for open source projects or Zulip for working groups and other part-time communities." [1]

[1] https://zulipchat.com/plans/ _______________________________________________ core-workflow mailing list -- core-workflow@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to core-workflow-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/core-workflow.python.org/ This list is governed by the PSF Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct

-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

Why don't you try to write a short document with a proposal -- hopefully it'll be pretty straightforward. You can email Tim Abbott ( tabbott@zulipchat.com) if you're stuck on details. On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Aaron Ang wrote:

...

I've also got confirmation from Tim Abbott (ZulipChat cofounder) that

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 1:23 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: they'd

...

be happy to host us and would even prioritize features they want.

Who's interested in making this happen?We should start with an experiment, and it would be good to create a plan for evaluating success. If you want to help out, please volunteer to write up such a plan -- implementation will be easy.

I would like to help out with this although I am really new to the Python development community.

-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 1:25 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:

Speaking to my own experience, I have never gotten involved in IRC because I don't want to have pay for a reflector to know who mentioned me, I don't want to maintain a server just to have a reflector for free, and I don't want or have a PC to leave on 24/7 to simply stay connected.

Me too. [snip]

The last time I looked into this idea the conclusion I reached was Zulip or Discourse. I do worry about the accessibility of IRC for new people, but I also have the same worry about email as more of people's personal communication move away from it and thus people just aren't set up handle any sort of volume of email.

Consider the fact that a standard answer to a lack of email threading on any of the major email providers is to use gmane's NNTP gateway. I don't think people realize that anyone who post-dates the '90s has no clue what that acronym represents and thus poses the same barriers as setting up IRC. And then asking folks to install a desktop app like Thunderbird just for their open source email is also an odd request to be making when there are web-based options.

Many young people have gmail accounts. So I don't think email is more problem than IRC for now.

So for me, the first question is are we just considering alternatives to the "IRC problem" or are we trying to solve the "new contributors who were born in the 2000s problem" (for which the latter subsumes the former)?

I feel later is important. [snip]

On Sat, Mar 31, 2018, 02:42 Antoine Pitrou, wrote:

On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 16:25:34 +0000 Brett Cannon wrote:

...

Consider the fact that a standard answer to a lack of email threading on any of the major email providers is to use gmane's NNTP gateway.

The main problem with gmane is that it isn't really maintained anymore. In particular you can't register new mailing-lists to the gateway :-(

...

I don't think people realize that anyone who post-dates the '90s has no clue what that acronym represents and thus poses the same barriers as setting up IRC.

I'm curious about "barriers". You just have to set up a piece of software... Python requires some kind of text editor or IDE to become productive. Is it a barrier to have to set up a text editor?

I don't want to dwell on this too much since I think we've collectively agreed to focus on the real-time collaboration case. But to answer the question, any piece of software we basically ask people to set up to be productive is a barrier. In North America there's is the phrase "death by a thousand paper cuts" and asking people to install yet more software and do more to get set up does have a cost where people have a personal limit how how many little things they are willing to put up with. As for this specific case, as a developer there is a much greater chance I will install an editor for all of my development needs while installing an email client has a higher chance tonne just for this specific case if people in school these days aren't heavy email users. -Brett

...

So for me, the first question is are we just considering alternatives to the "IRC problem" or are we trying to solve the "new contributors who were born in the 2000s problem" (for which the latter subsumes the former)?

Well... I think the main question is whether IRC is important at all. I'd be willing to guess that most of our contributors don't use IRC on a regular basis, and they're not missing on anything.

Missing out? No. Would like to occasionally have real-time collaboration? Yes, at least for me (I mean I could give every core dev my number toessage me on Signal or WhatsApp, but I don't think that scales 😉). Which isn't a

reason not to improve things, but makes it quite low-priority IMHO.

Yes, this isn't critical, hence why I don't think anyone has tried to do anything beyond discussing it so far. We will have to wait and see if anyone writes up a proposal as to why we should consider the overhead of asking people to sign up for Zulip and give it a try. -Brett

Regards

Antoine.

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On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 14:32:36 -0400 Ned Deily wrote:

On Mar 31, 2018, at 05:41, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

...

[...] The main problem with gmane is that it isn't really maintained anymore. In particular you can't register new mailing-lists to the gateway :-(

Although the old web interface is pining, you can ask for new groups or updates by posting to the gmane.discuss meta newsgroup or sending email to admin@gmane.org.

Wow, thank you! I didn't know about that. Regards Antoine.

Thanks for the writeup Craig! My comments:

- decide on the type of logins/auth that will be allowed for this service -> GitHub oauth? -> Google oauth?

I'll be happy as long as these two auths are supported. - should there be a DNS name for this for easy eaccess: chat.python.org

?

Maybe in the second phase (after the trial phase) -> identify points of contact for Zulip, i.e. who gets contacted if

something goes wrong?

I'd like at least several core devs to get involved as admins. -> should the existing Python Software Foundation infrastructure team be involved in the admin of this system? I think they should be involved, with setting up zulip and as admins. -> does Code of Conduct apply to users of chat system? Should this be

advertised somehow

The PSF's CoC will apply. If it's up to me, I'll have a bot set up that greets every new members with explicit reminder that the CoC applies there. -> what types of channels/rooms should be created? who is responsible

for creating these channels?

To start just a python-dev room? admins can create new channels. - identify systems that can be integrated with Zulip: -> GitHub (out of the box integration is available) That's perhaps the important one right now (IMO). The next I'll probably use myself is Zapier integration :) Future integrations can be proposed at later time. Related question: - can anyone add/enable their own integration between zulip and something else? or only the admins? - where on the Python.org website should information be made available

for logging into the chat system?

Start with the devguide. We might want to update https://www.python.org/community/irc/. It can be requested by opening an issue at https://github.com/python/pythondotorg. But let's not do that yet until after the trial phase. Mariatta ᐧ

On 31 March 2018 at 06:23, Guido van Rossum wrote:

I've also got confirmation from Tim Abbott (ZulipChat cofounder) that they'd be happy to host us and would even prioritize features they want.

Cool - I've mainly been exposed to the Zulip community via Sumana (who's handling project management for the Warehouse migration), and if she's any indication, I think they'd be a wonderful group for us to collaborate with :) If we were to set up a python-dev stream, then service integrations I think we'd be interested in: * GitHub (naturally) * Roundup (potentially based on the existing IRC bot) * BuildBot (potentially based on the existing IRC bot) (Something worth noting is that the way that chat.zulip.org has their own commit monitoring set up is to have a dedicated top level "commits" stream, and then separate topics within that stream for different repos. I suspect that approach could also work pretty well for python.org, rather than necessarily putting everything inline in the dev discussion stream the way we do on IRC) I expect we'd also want to eventually set up an IRC bridge with python-dev, as otherwise folks joining the Zulip python-dev stream might not find existing contributors to chat to. (While I no longer idle on IRC during the work day the way I used to when I was working for Red Hat, it's still the default real-time option I'd reach for if I was having an extended back-and-forth with someone on the issue tracker). Mentioning that also provides a chance to highlight Zulip's stream/topic links: https://chat.zulip.org/#narrow/stream/127-integrations/topic/IRC.20mirror :) Anyway, +1 for me for running an experiment - the UX issues with IRC are non-trivial (and some of them, like the now-unusual way it manages user identities, are inherent to the platform), and Zulip avoids all of the red flags that can make me nervous about introducing new tools: - there's a hosted service available, so it doesn't depend on volunteers managing infrastructure - the hosted service is bootstrapped rather than VC-funded, so the business model doesn't demand exponential growth - the underlying project is open source, so folks can pitch in and help out if they're so inclined - the data being managed isn't anything where we're concerned about long term preservation (the way we are for code commits, tracker issues, PEPs, and email design discussions) Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia

Hello! Speaking as another member of the Zulip core team, I can answer right here some questions from this thread. First off, I'll say that I'm very happy to see this discussion, and repeat that we would be very happy to provide hosting. :)

PREDEPLOYMENT QUESTIONS AND RESEARCH ==================================== 1. SETUP ======== - talk to Tim Abbot

The hosted service we'd offer out of the box is what we call Zulip Cloud Premium, as described here (except we'd provide it for free): https://zulipchat.com/plans/ For more about how Zulip works and why we like it, you can read these: https://zulipchat.com/why-zulip/ https://zulipchat.com/for/open-source/ To set up a Zulip community, someone can follow any of the "sign up" buttons to go to https://zulipchat.com/new/ and create a Zulip organization at a URL like python.zulipchat.com. Then let us know and we'll mark that organization to get Zulip Cloud Premium for free permanently. (We can also give it a custom domain like chat.python.org later.)

- decide on the type of logins/auth that will be allowed for this service -> GitHub oauth? -> Google oauth? -> chat service specific account? -> other?

Out of the box, we support all three of the ideas above on zulipchat.com: GitHub OAuth, Google OAuth, and users can sign up with an email and password.

- should there be a DNS name for this for easy eaccess: chat.python.org ?

We're happy to do this while hosting on the zulipchat.com cloud service; we've done it for others before. No rush; we can move it to such a name later.

2. ADMIN ======== -> identify points of contact for Zulip, i.e. who gets contacted if something goes wrong?

The usual point of contact is support@zulipchat.com; several of us monitor that and we're quite responsive there. For most things that's best. Folks can also contact me personally or, as mentioned upthread, Tim Abbott. We're in the Zulip organization for Zulip's own development community, at https://chat.zulip.org/ (which is of course open for anyone to join); once an open Zulip org for the Python project is set up, I'll certainly be present there too.

DEPLOYMENT PLAN ===============

0. EVALUATION ============= 1. Have key stakeholders test drive https://chat.zulip.org , and make sure they are OK with it, before proceeding to rollout.

1. PHASE 1 - initial rollout ============================ 1. Decide on the auth/login policy for the chat system 2. Get Zulip to set up the system and make it available

This part is easy :) -- whoever wants to do this can just go to https://zulipchat.com/new and create a new org. It's self-serve.

3. Have a few people in the core-workflow team test drive the system for 1 week

I'd suggest one addition to this: have at least one experienced Zulip user (probably me and/or Tim) participate in this step as well. Like many forms of online communication, there's a lot of habits and norms of usage for making everything smooth that you pick up naturally when you join an established community, but aren't as obvious when everyone is new to the system at the same time. Happy to answer other questions! Greg

On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 at 01:09 Greg Price wrote:

Hello! Speaking as another member of the Zulip core team, I can answer right here some questions from this thread.

First off, I'll say that I'm very happy to see this discussion, and repeat that we would be very happy to provide hosting. :)

...

PREDEPLOYMENT QUESTIONS AND RESEARCH ==================================== 1. SETUP ======== - talk to Tim Abbot

The hosted service we'd offer out of the box is what we call Zulip Cloud Premium, as described here (except we'd provide it for free): https://zulipchat.com/plans/

For more about how Zulip works and why we like it, you can read these: https://zulipchat.com/why-zulip/ https://zulipchat.com/for/open-source/

To set up a Zulip community, someone can follow any of the "sign up" buttons to go to https://zulipchat.com/new/ and create a Zulip organization at a URL like python.zulipchat.com. Then let us know and we'll mark that organization to get Zulip Cloud Premium for free permanently. (We can also give it a custom domain like chat.python.org later.)

To prevent anyone from squatting on the name I just tried to register for python.zulipchat.com but was told that subdomain is not available (although python.zulipchat.com says there's no organization). :( -Brett

...

- decide on the type of logins/auth that will be allowed for this service -> GitHub oauth? -> Google oauth? -> chat service specific account? -> other?

Out of the box, we support all three of the ideas above on zulipchat.com: GitHub OAuth, Google OAuth, and users can sign up with an email and password.

...

- should there be a DNS name for this for easy eaccess: chat.python.org ?

We're happy to do this while hosting on the zulipchat.com cloud service; we've done it for others before. No rush; we can move it to such a name later.

...

2. ADMIN ======== -> identify points of contact for Zulip, i.e. who gets contacted if something goes wrong?

The usual point of contact is support@zulipchat.com; several of us monitor that and we're quite responsive there. For most things that's best.

Folks can also contact me personally or, as mentioned upthread, Tim Abbott. We're in the Zulip organization for Zulip's own development community, at https://chat.zulip.org/ (which is of course open for anyone to join); once an open Zulip org for the Python project is set up, I'll certainly be present there too.

...

DEPLOYMENT PLAN ===============

0. EVALUATION ============= 1. Have key stakeholders test drive https://chat.zulip.org , and make sure they are OK with it, before proceeding to rollout.

1. PHASE 1 - initial rollout ============================ 1. Decide on the auth/login policy for the chat system 2. Get Zulip to set up the system and make it available

This part is easy :) -- whoever wants to do this can just go to https://zulipchat.com/new and create a new org. It's self-serve.

...

3. Have a few people in the core-workflow team test drive the system for 1 week

I'd suggest one addition to this: have at least one experienced Zulip user (probably me and/or Tim) participate in this step as well. Like many forms of online communication, there's a lot of habits and norms of usage for making everything smooth that you pick up naturally when you join an established community, but aren't as obvious when everyone is new to the system at the same time.

Happy to answer other questions!

Greg _______________________________________________ core-workflow mailing list -- core-workflow@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to core-workflow-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/core-workflow.python.org/ This list is governed by the PSF Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct

Let's please switch to python.zulipchat.com -- I'm sure Greg can help with this. On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:

On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 at 10:28 Brett Cannon wrote:

...

On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 at 01:09 Greg Price wrote:

...

[SNIP] https://zulipchat.com/for/open-source/

To set up a Zulip community, someone can follow any of the "sign up" buttons to go to https://zulipchat.com/new/ and create a Zulip organization at a URL like python.zulipchat.com. Then let us know and we'll mark that organization to get Zulip Cloud Premium for free permanently. (We can also give it a custom domain like chat.python.org later.)

To prevent anyone from squatting on the name I just tried to register for python.zulipchat.com but was told that subdomain is not available (although python.zulipchat.com says there's no organization). :(

I have gone ahead and registered python-lang.zulipchat.com (although nothing is set up yet since April Fools is my annual "stay off the internet" day plus I try to do no open source on Sundays and I would like to try and adhere to that :) . I will start configuring things probably tomorrow and will open things up to the community once I have gone through and tweaked all the settings (although it sounds like Greg is promoting leaving everything very open and going with the defaults, from stream creation to bot integration? Is that right, Greg?). IOW don't bother trying to use this yet as it's not publicly accessible ATM.

Now if someone here actually registered python.zulipchat.com and simply didn't mention that then I'm happy to switch to that name and delete the organization I just created (although if we eventually put this behind a *. python.org subdomain I guess it doesn't really matter too much).

Those that want to be admins can email me privately and I will add you to the organization (I will be restricting this to folks I know I can personally trust since admins can delete and ban people, so apologies in advance if I don't know you but you wanted to get involved at the admin-level).

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-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

On 2 April 2018 at 18:55, francismb wrote:

Hi,

...

I don't want to dwell on this too much since I think we've collectively agreed to focus on the real-time collaboration case. But to answer the question, any piece of software we basically ask people to set up to be productive is a barrier. In North America there's is the phrase "death by a thousand paper cuts" and asking people to install yet more software and do more to get set up does have a cost where people have a personal limit how how many little things they are willing to put up with.

Doesn't that mean that the solution with the least "paper cuts" would be to put *all* on a integrated python(-dev) web platform ? motto: just log in and start contributing :-)

That's certainly the way corporate development environments are heading with projects like Eclipse Che (the tech behind codenvy.com), and AWS Cloud9. This post from Zapier engineering covers those two, as well as one I hadn't heard of before, CodeAnywhere: https://zapier.com/engineering/best-cloud-ides/ The main challenge with covering an approach like that in the dev guide is that none of the current core developers work that way, so we'd have a hard time providing good support to any newcomers that decided to take it up. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia

Taking a look, it turns out we've had "python" in a list of subdomains that are reserved so nobody can register them through the signup form. The comment in the source suggests the idea was that we might put a blog at that URL someday. This seems like a still better use of the name, though. :-) I've just gone and renamed the org that was at python-lang.zulipchat.com to be at python.zulipchat.com. Brett, would you confirm you can log in there now and everything seems in order? Greg On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 9:51 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:

OK, then I'll hold off until we here from Greg about whether we can get the python.zulipchat.com subdomain somehow.

On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 at 13:05 Guido van Rossum wrote:

...

Let's please switch to python.zulipchat.com -- I'm sure Greg can help with this.

On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:

...

On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 at 10:28 Brett Cannon wrote:

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On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 at 01:09 Greg Price wrote:

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[SNIP] https://zulipchat.com/for/open-source/

To set up a Zulip community, someone can follow any of the "sign up" buttons to go to https://zulipchat.com/new/ and create a Zulip organization at a URL like python.zulipchat.com. Then let us know and we'll mark that organization to get Zulip Cloud Premium for free permanently. (We can also give it a custom domain like chat.python.org later.)

To prevent anyone from squatting on the name I just tried to register for python.zulipchat.com but was told that subdomain is not available (although python.zulipchat.com says there's no organization). :(

I have gone ahead and registered python-lang.zulipchat.com (although nothing is set up yet since April Fools is my annual "stay off the internet" day plus I try to do no open source on Sundays and I would like to try and adhere to that :) . I will start configuring things probably tomorrow and will open things up to the community once I have gone through and tweaked all the settings (although it sounds like Greg is promoting leaving everything very open and going with the defaults, from stream creation to bot integration? Is that right, Greg?). IOW don't bother trying to use this yet as it's not publicly accessible ATM.

Now if someone here actually registered python.zulipchat.com and simply didn't mention that then I'm happy to switch to that name and delete the organization I just created (although if we eventually put this behind a *. python.org subdomain I guess it doesn't really matter too much).

Those that want to be admins can email me privately and I will add you to the organization (I will be restricting this to folks I know I can personally trust since admins can delete and ban people, so apologies in advance if I don't know you but you wanted to get involved at the admin-level).

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-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 at 10:16 Greg Price wrote:

Taking a look, it turns out we've had "python" in a list of subdomains that are reserved so nobody can register them through the signup form. The comment in the source suggests the idea was that we might put a blog at that URL someday. This seems like a still better use of the name, though. :-)

I've just gone and renamed the org that was at python-lang.zulipchat.com to be at python.zulipchat.com. Brett, would you confirm you can log in there now and everything seems in order?

Yep, I logged in without issue! I will start setting things up this week. -Brett

Greg

On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 9:51 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:

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OK, then I'll hold off until we here from Greg about whether we can get the python.zulipchat.com subdomain somehow.

On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 at 13:05 Guido van Rossum wrote:

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Let's please switch to python.zulipchat.com -- I'm sure Greg can help with this.

On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:

...

On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 at 10:28 Brett Cannon wrote:

...

On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 at 01:09 Greg Price wrote:

...

[SNIP] https://zulipchat.com/for/open-source/

To set up a Zulip community, someone can follow any of the "sign up" buttons to go to https://zulipchat.com/new/ and create a Zulip organization at a URL like python.zulipchat.com. Then let us know and we'll mark that organization to get Zulip Cloud Premium for free permanently. (We can also give it a custom domain like chat.python.org later.)

To prevent anyone from squatting on the name I just tried to register for python.zulipchat.com but was told that subdomain is not available (although python.zulipchat.com says there's no organization). :(

I have gone ahead and registered python-lang.zulipchat.com (although nothing is set up yet since April Fools is my annual "stay off the internet" day plus I try to do no open source on Sundays and I would like to try and adhere to that :) . I will start configuring things probably tomorrow and will open things up to the community once I have gone through and tweaked all the settings (although it sounds like Greg is promoting leaving everything very open and going with the defaults, from stream creation to bot integration? Is that right, Greg?). IOW don't bother trying to use this yet as it's not publicly accessible ATM.

Now if someone here actually registered python.zulipchat.com and simply didn't mention that then I'm happy to switch to that name and delete the organization I just created (although if we eventually put this behind a *.python.org subdomain I guess it doesn't really matter too much).

Those that want to be admins can email me privately and I will add you to the organization (I will be restricting this to folks I know I can personally trust since admins can delete and ban people, so apologies in advance if I don't know you but you wanted to get involved at the admin-level).

_______________________________________________ core-workflow mailing list -- core-workflow@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to core-workflow-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/core-workflow.python.org/ This list is governed by the PSF Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct

-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

Just a quick update: I have https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/6379 to add a webhook for Travis failures, but after that I think all of the key things for an initial opening of this for Python development is ready (I am currently not scoping this for the whole Python community, so no general help stream). My hope is to announce the opening up of the instance here on Friday. If this experiment goes well we can then discuss announcing this on python-dev and making this a permanent thing. I'm also still looking for more volunteer admins (there are currently only two of us). On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 at 11:20 Greg Price wrote:

On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 10:49 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:

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Yep, I logged in without issue! I will start setting things up this week.

Great! Naturally don't hesitate to let me know when I can be of further help.

Greg

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018, 17:28 Barry Warsaw, wrote:

Guido van Rossum wrote:

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I would love to see this, and I would love it if I didn't have to do anything about it myself except joining the service when it's ready (preferably without having to create a new account :-). I've been a fan of and participant on IRC for decades, but tbh, it's been more of a burden lately to stay connected that way, so I haven't been around much.

Zulip really does seem like a great option, so I'm all for giving it a go. I just downloaded the macOS client and tried to connect, but apparently the Python channel requires approval to join. Maybe I'm just jumping the gun, but please let python-dev and/or -committers know when it's read for play!

Yes, you're jumping the gun. 😋 As I mentioned yesterday, the plan is to open it up tomorrow and announce that here. If things look good after that then we can take it to python-dev. -Brett

-Barry _______________________________________________ core-workflow mailing list -- core-workflow@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to core-workflow-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/core-workflow.python.org/ This list is governed by the PSF Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct

On Fri, 6 Apr 2018 at 20:59 Craig Rodrigues wrote:

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:

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Yes, you're jumping the gun. 😋 As I mentioned yesterday, the plan is to open it up tomorrow and announce that here. If things look good after that then we can take it to python-dev.

Brett,

Thanks for setting up python.zulipchat.com. While signing up for Zulipchat, I read through the terms of service at: https://zulipchat.com/terms/

I just wanted to confirm, are those terms of service compatible with PSF policies in terms of:

- privacy of data, https://zulipchat.com/privacy/ , vs. Python.org's policy at: https://www.python.org/privacy/ - age restriction (zulipchat can only be used by age >= 13) - export compliance with respect to residents of Cuba, Iran, North Korea, or Syria - anything else

Personally, I am not affected by these policies, since I am a U.S. citizen, resident in the U.S., and over 13 years old.

I am not an expert in these topics, but just wanted to confirm that this is compatible with Python.org's policy, since Python is an open project with contributors who live in different countries around the world, and have different backgrounds, ages, etc.

Since this is an experiment I'm fine with the current situation (the admins are also not planning on actively policing users over any of that either), but if someone feels strongly about this and wants to start a dialogue with the PSF board right now they can. And if it does become a problem and we want to keep using Zulip we can then stand up our own instance without those restrictions (assuming we even can; IANAL so I don't know how many of those requirements are required for any and all services hosted in the US or by a US organization).