>> We want less lists, not more.

the basic math would be adding "packaging-user" and dropping "virtualenv", so no more lists on the whole.

if you're not a virtualenv subscriber, then yes, it's one more list, but honestly, this isn't about the active *-sig people, but the users.

see below.

>> it's actually mostly a support forum that has periodic surges of development discussion

the charter sounds like a dev list, and I think the surge is here to stay until the packaging house in order.

I think distutils-sig only kinda works now as both, because most of the user traffic doesn't end up here, but rather goes to virtualenv, SO, Python-list, etc...

But the problem with those lists, is the lack of certainty about answers across the whole space.

If we:

  - properly described distutils-sig list in it's charter as a user list too

  - *and* announced it as such, on "Python-announce"

  - *and* made it prominent in the new "Python Packaging User Guide" (which is in the works; another thread for that later)

Then:

  I think the reality of having distutils-sig serve both would sink in as not ideal.  possibly not?  

  The dev/user list distinction is pretty common, so my instinct is to follow that rut here too.

my motivation is to have a better "joe user" story.

**** currently (slightly exaggerated for fun) ****

- joe encounters confusing pip error (due to pip being built on shaky packaging ground)

- joe: "well, there's the pip user list called 'virtualenv'.".

- co-worker: "that error could actually be due to Setuptools, that pip uses I think; pip's support for Setuptools is best effort I hear."

- joe: "hmm, Setuptools hasn't been released for awhile.  it's website says to use 'distutils-sig', but that sounds like a dev list.  maybe that info is outdated."

- co-worker: "oh, you're on python3, so I think you're using Distribute.  there's some way to tell, but I'm not sure"

- joe: "Distribute lists distutils-sig for 'Feedback and getting involved', hmm."

- joe" "the distutils-sig archive sure looks like an active dev list.  I might be interfering with silly user questions."

- co-worker:  "maybe try the 'Fellowship of the Packaging' list; that sounds friendly. but wait, it looks dead."

- joe: "let me just post to Stack overflow"

- co-worker:  "hey, check it out, somebody just responded to your post"

- joe: "I guess I'll wait a few days, and see if the answer gets votes, so I can tell if it's right or not"

**** what I want ****

- joe encounters error...

- joe: "I'll just post to 'packaging-user'. everybody uses that now and gets answers they can usually trust."

- joe: "If I want to follow dev discussions, I can join 'distutils-sig', but that's more pain than I want to see"

Marcus