On 08.10.2014 15:05, Donald Stufft wrote:
On Oct 8, 2014, at 8:55 AM, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> wrote:
On 08.10.2014 14:30, Nick Coghlan wrote:
On 8 October 2014 22:22, Donald Stufft <donald@stufft.io> wrote:
On Oct 8, 2014, at 8:17 AM, holger krekel <holger@merlinux.eu> wrote:
Also, i am worried on principle grounds if pip maintainers are putting themselves outside PEP reach, yet pip is distributed along with Python.
We’re not “putting ourselves outside of PEP reach”. We are an external project and we are not bound by the PEP process. Devpi, py.test, Django, requests, etc are also not bound by the PEP process.
Note also that even for CPython itself, it is *up to us as core developers* to decide when something needs to be escalated through the PEP process. The vast majority of CPython changes are handled directly through the issue tracker, and there's still the occasional change that doesn't even make it that far (e.g. if we notice a problem while working on something else, we have the option of just committing the fix directly).
PEPs are primarily for changes which have broad ecosystem implications where the additional overhead is justified. We don't write PEPs for every change to the CPython command line interface (e.g. there's no PEP for isolated mode), and the same kind of assessment of external impact applies to pip and the PyPA in general when decided whether a change can be handled within the scope of an individual project, or if it needs to be escalated for broader discussion.
I don't follow Donald's reasoning and I'm not sure I understand whether your comments are meant as clarification of pip being subject to the PEP process or support for Donald's reasoning :-)
Changes to pip and PyPI *do* have a global effect on the Python ecosystem and thus need to be covered by the PEP process.
If pip decides to go with a strategy that ignores this, I think we have a problem. The core developers put trust into pip when allowing it to (effectively) get distributed with Python and making it the default Python packaging manager. Please use that trust with the appropriate care and respect.
I don’t think we’ve *ever* not used that trust with care and respect and we’ve been trusted by the Python community for far longer than PEP 453 has existed. We attempt to follow PEPs where we can and where they make good sense. Nobody on the pip team is saying we’re going to flat out ignore PEPs or whatever.
We (or at least I am) are saying that dictating UX via PEP process has been shown to us *not* to work and that we are not obligated to implement or listen to a PEP. This was explicitly spelled out in PEP 453 that we remain an external project even with the fact we’re now bundled with Python. This does not mean we won’t generally try to use the PEP process where our changes have cross cutting concerns between different projects but it does mean that we implement or follow PEPs at our discretion. This isn’t up for debate, it was an explicit inclusion in PEP 453 and if there was a problem with pip maintaining it’s own project the time to bring that up was a year ago.
The intention of PEP 435 was to enable pip to evolve independent of the Python release process, which is a good thing. However, your comment that "We are an external project and we are not bound by the PEP process." doesn't really pan out in the light of the PEP's requirement that "The maintainers of the bootstrapped software and the CPython core team will work together in order to address the needs of both." If pip maintainers don't feel they are bound by PEPs, you could argue that you are also not bound by PEP 435, which would result in a rather pointless cooperation setup :-) Note that I'm not trying to say that you are actually not respecting the PEP process. I'm just concerned about comments like the above causing unnecessary heat in discussions. I'd also like to request that you take Holger's concerns more seriously, perhaps add him as PEP author and let him participate in clarifying it (if he still feels like investing time in this). PEPs are never perfect and there's always room for improvement. Thanks, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Services directly from the Source
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