All my development is done on Linux. I use Windows very minimally (such as for tax preparation) and unless forced to do so for specific circumstances (such as submittal to grants.gov) do not expose Windows to the Internet. In the future there may possibly arise a need for us to port some Linux-developed Python code to Windows, but we will have to cross that bridge when we get there. I think you raise an interesting issue: What is a package manager? I have minimal experience installing packages on Windows over the last 5-10 years, but in my experience a Windows package comes as an executable that, when run, installs itself. Unless a third-party program monitors the installation, uninstalling is a nasty chore, as is finding out what files were installed or where they went. The rpm and deb package managers (and their yum and other higher level dependency managers) do a lot of things: 1. They install packages and maintain databases of what packages were installed 2. They manage dependencies 3. They support clean uninstalling of packages 4. They can query packages, both installed (via their databases) and not yet installed (e.g., as rpm or deb files), to determine attributes, such as files they install, dependencies, and other information defined at packaging time. 5. They build packages and (in some cases) can rebuild packages. 6. They can verify packages for integrity and security purposes. 7. They can download package files and maintain archives of installed package files for use as local repositories. There may be other functions, but the above is a top-of-the-head list. I can say that I'm not terribly happy with Python packaging that is only minimally compatible with rpm. I haven't used Ubuntu all that much. I do like Ubuntu's packaging and package management, and I do know that there are programs, such as alias, that can translate from rpm to deb formats. I don't think I ever said that Windows is broken in the area of package management. My own experience is that the files of Windows programs tend to be put in a directory devoted to the program, rather than put in directories with other files having similar purposes. At one time, the default location in Windows for word processing files was even in a sub-directory of the word processing program. That changed to having a form of user home directory, but it didn't change much for the program files themselves. Unix/Linux puts the files in specific areas of the file system having functional commonality. One could almost say that the Windows default approach to structuring its filesystem avoids or minimizes the need for package management. I repeat that this issue mainly arises because Windows doesn't have the same kind of filesystem structure (and therefore the need for package management) that other systems have. I don't know what Windows add/remove programs function does, but all it might do is to run the executable to install packages and record the installation (as was previously done by third party programs) to facilitate clean removal. Unless you can perform more of the other functions I listed above, I doubt I would call add/remove a package manager. Stan Klein On Wed, April 9, 2008 1:23 pm, Paul Moore wrote:
On 09/04/2008, Stanley A. Klein <sklein@cpcug.org> wrote:
IMHO, the main system without a package manager is Windows. A reasonable way to deal with Windows would be to create a package manager for it that could be used by Python and anyone else who wanted to use it. The package manager could establish a file hierarchy similar to the Unix FHS and install files appropriately, except for what is needed to satisfy the Windows OS. That would probably go a long way to addressing the issues being discussed here. This is primarily a Windows problem, not a Python problem.
Windows does have a package manager - the add/remove programs application. It's extremely limited, and doesn't make any attempt at doing dependency resolution, certainly - but that's a separate issue.
I don't know if you use Windows (as in, develop programs using Python on Windows). If you do, then I'd be interested in your views on bdist_wininst and bdist_msi installers, and how they fit into the setuptools/egg environment, particularly with regard to the package manager you are proposing. If you don't use Windows, then I don't see how you can usefully comment.
Personally, as I've said before, I don't have a problem with a Python-only package manager, as long as it replaces or integrates bdist_wininst and bdist_msi. Having two package managers is far worse than having none - and claiming that add/remove programs "isn't a package manager" is just ignoring reality (if it isn't, then why do bdist_wininst and bdist_msi exist?).
Are the Linux users happy with having a Python package manager that ignores RPM/apt? Why should Windows users be any happier?
Sorry - I'm feeling a little grumpy. I've read one too many "Windows is so broken that people who use it obviously don't care about doing things right" postings this week :-(
Paul.
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