[issue77] fix tests for python > 2.5
New submission from Tarek Ziadé <ziade.tarek@gmail.com>: makes the tests work for python > 2.5 ---------- messages: 301 nosy: tarek priority: bug status: unread title: fix tests for python > 2.5 _______________________________________________ Setuptools tracker <setuptools@bugs.python.org> <http://bugs.python.org/setuptools/issue77> _______________________________________________
Hi All, After being given the following page...: http://docs.python.org/distutils/builtdist.html I have some comments... distutils looks really good... from the developer side.... Just some minor questions... 1) Debian+ubuntu .deb support? working? not-working? Status? 2) Mac Support? Working? same - how well? documentation is vague 3) windows installers for packages - can we kill them? or how do we move to something better... I'm wondering what people think about having a gui interface to drive all this technical wizardry.... When I finish my current workload... I'm wondering what could be done to make things even better than they currently are on this front. David
On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 2:38 PM, David Lyon <david.lyon@preisshare.net> wrote:
1) Debian+ubuntu .deb support? working? not-working? Status?
The stdeb project provides a layer on the top of distutils for example to achieve this.
2) Mac Support? Working? same - how well? documentation is vague
What kind of mac support you are reffering to ? If you build something, it will work fine under mac
3) windows installers for packages - can we kill them? or how do we move to something better...
What do you mean by "killing them" ?
I'm wondering what people think about having a gui interface to drive all this technical wizardry....
What would your GUI do precisely ? distutils can probably provide the basis for a third-party application that wants to provide some GUI to drive some process.
When I finish my current workload... I'm wondering what could be done to make things even better than they currently are on this front.
On the packaging side ? tons of things really , welcome aboard ! ;)
David
_______________________________________________ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig
-- Tarek Ziadé | http://ziade.org
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:50:35 +0200, Tarek Ziadé <ziade.tarek@gmail.com> wrote:
1) Debian+ubuntu .deb support? working? not-working? Status?
The stdeb project provides a layer on the top of distutils for example to achieve this.
Oh ok - well the documentation should really lead people there.. imho
2) Mac Support? Working? same - how well? documentation is vague
What kind of mac support you are reffering to ? If you build something, it will work fine under mac
Well... update the documentation.. the table near the top needs to reflect that. snip of ... http://docs.python.org/distutils/builtdist.html ----- The available formats for built distributions are: Format Description Notes gztar gzipped tar file (.tar.gz) (1),(3) ztar compressed tar file (.tar.Z) (3) tar tar file (.tar) (3) zip zip file (.zip) (4) rpm RPM (5) pkgtool Solaris pkgtool sdux HP-UX swinstall rpm RPM (5) wininst self-extracting ZIP file for Windows (2),(4) -----
3) windows installers for packages - can we kill them? or how do we move to something better...
What do you mean by "killing them" ?
Remove from circulation.
I'm wondering what people think about having a gui interface to drive all this technical wizardry....
What would your GUI do precisely ?
Allow a novice to take a python "application" or "module" and run it through all those tools and end up with the desired built targets.... The kinds of things that need to be managed are: - versioning - provision for documentation - compiling p2exe,py2app - windows installers I'm not having too many new ideas because it appears these things are already implemented... But in a simple example, a user has a (say) windows pc, wants to build for mac and linux... has no idea... clicks the appropriate check boxes... and it all "gets done"... Perphaps even uploading the lot to their website or pypi...
distutils can probably provide the basis for a third-party application that wants to provide some GUI to drive some process.
hmmm... it's an interesting thought...
On the packaging side ? tons of things really
Yes, well I am very close to releasing a Package Manager GUI so I'm kindof concentrating on that first before I go take on any new commitments... David
2009/6/2 David Lyon <david.lyon@preisshare.net>:
3) windows installers for packages - can we kill them? or how do we move to something better...
What do you mean by "killing them" ?
Remove from circulation.
Seems a bit drastic, given that very many people rely on them... What do you propose to replace them with? Paul.
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 15:58:33 +0100, Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
2009/6/2 David Lyon <david.lyon@preisshare.net>:
3) windows installers for packages - can we kill them? or how do we move to something better...
What do you mean by "killing them" ?
Remove from circulation.
Seems a bit drastic, given that very many people rely on them... What do you propose to replace them with?
Let me clarify it... Installers for Apllications imho are just fine.. because users expect that... but installers for what are essentially data files .. python packages is imho not right. It's best done through pypi.... and a Package Manager haha David
2009/6/2 David Lyon <david.lyon@preisshare.net>:
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 15:58:33 +0100, Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
2009/6/2 David Lyon <david.lyon@preisshare.net>:
3) windows installers for packages - can we kill them? or how do we move to something better...
What do you mean by "killing them" ?
Remove from circulation.
Seems a bit drastic, given that very many people rely on them... What do you propose to replace them with?
Let me clarify it...
Installers for Apllications imho are just fine.. because users expect that...
but installers for what are essentially data files .. python packages is imho not right.
OK, I accept that is your view. But without a concrete proposal for what I should use in place of (say) pywin32-213.win32-py2.6.exe to install the pywin32 package into my Python 2.6 installation on my PC, I don't see what you are suggesting to replace bdist_wininst installers. Eggs? If so, there are well-documented discussions over why some people (myself included) don't like eggs. There's no point in rehashing those discussions unless you have something new to add.
It's best done through pypi....
and a Package Manager haha
Again, that's been talked about a lot. Until someone develops such a thing, I can't comment (other than to say that I suspect it's harder than you'd think to please everyone who currently uses bdist_wininst installers - which you'd have to do if you want to get rid of them). Paul.
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 23:44:14 +0100, Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
OK, I accept that is your view. But without a concrete proposal for what I should use in place of (say) pywin32-213.win32-py2.6.exe to install the pywin32 package into my Python 2.6 installation on my PC, I don't see what you are suggesting to replace bdist_wininst installers.
I have no answer for that right now..
Eggs? If so, there are well-documented discussions over why some people (myself included) don't like eggs.
in a nutshell though.. whats wrong with eggs as far as pywin32 is concerned?
Again, that's been talked about a lot. Until someone develops such a thing, I can't comment (other than to say that I suspect it's harder than you'd think to please everyone who currently uses bdist_wininst installers - which you'd have to do if you want to get rid of them).
For a sys-admin though.. they are a pain in the a.. It's not about that anyway... what we need to slowly move to is having one consistant way of installing packages. I know that isn't easy... and can't be done in a day.... but for users at the moment... it's just plain too hard... David
On 3 Jun, 2009, at 0:55, David Lyon wrote:
Eggs? If so, there are well-documented discussions over why some people (myself included) don't like eggs.
in a nutshell though.. whats wrong with eggs as far as pywin32 is concerned?
The aren't shown in the Add/Remove programs menu. The same discussion can be had about eggs vs. rpms on Linux, and having a package that is recognized by the operating system package manager is very useful when managing a system. Having all software managed by the same package manager makes live a lot easier when you need to inventory what software is installed on a system, and during upgrades.
Again, that's been talked about a lot. Until someone develops such a thing, I can't comment (other than to say that I suspect it's harder than you'd think to please everyone who currently uses bdist_wininst installers - which you'd have to do if you want to get rid of them).
For a sys-admin though.. they are a pain in the a..
Why is that? Would bdist_msi help improve on that? Ronald
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 07:55:26 +0200, Ronald Oussoren <ronaldoussoren@mac.com> wrote:
in a nutshell though.. whats wrong with eggs as far as pywin32 is concerned?
The aren't shown in the Add/Remove programs menu.
Oh - you don't have a python package manager... that's all... :-( Technically though, they shouldn't be displayed in the operating system application list because they aren't technically "Programs". Rather, they are just packages of a programming language... therefore.. if you like subprograms. I agree - there should be a list where they can be added and removed. That's exactly what I'm working on now..
The same discussion can be had about eggs vs. rpms on Linux, and having a package that is recognized by the operating system package manager is very useful when managing a system. Having all software managed by the same package manager makes live a lot easier when you need to inventory what software is installed on a system, and during upgrades.
Totally agree.
... .. Why is that? Would bdist_msi help improve on that?
Nope. For all the above reasons... David
On 3 Jun, 2009, at 9:40, David Lyon wrote:
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 07:55:26 +0200, Ronald Oussoren <ronaldoussoren@mac.com> wrote:
in a nutshell though.. whats wrong with eggs as far as pywin32 is concerned?
The aren't shown in the Add/Remove programs menu.
Oh - you don't have a python package manager... that's all... :-(
I already know how to manage python packages, that's not the point.
The same discussion can be had about eggs vs. rpms on Linux, and having a package that is recognized by the operating system package manager is very useful when managing a system. Having all software managed by the same package manager makes live a lot easier when you need to inventory what software is installed on a system, and during upgrades.
Totally agree.
I don't think we actually agree. When I have my system administrator hat on I don't want a seperate Python Package Manager, Perl Package Manager, Ruby Package Manager, ...., I just want a single tool that manages all software. That said, as a python developer having a tool like easy_install or buildout that works the same on all operating systems is also very convenient. Ronald
2009/6/3 David Lyon <david.lyon@preisshare.net>:
Oh - you don't have a python package manager... that's all... :-(
And until someone produces one, there's no point in comparing what we have with vapourware.
Technically though, they shouldn't be displayed in the operating system application list because they aren't technically "Programs".
Your opinion. Mine is different. I doubt either of us know Microsoft's opinion on the matter. (But OS patches aren't "programs" either, and they are in there, albeit hidden by default) *If* there was an existing "python package manager", it is possible that it would provide compelling enough features to convince me to change my mind. Build it and I'll tell you. Hey, build even some of it and I'll comment on what you have (as long as I can use it alongside bdist_wininst installers - I won't change my existing setup just to test your alternative, sorry). Paul.
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 10:33:46 +0100, Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
*If* there was an existing "python package manager", it is possible that it would provide compelling enough features to convince me to change my mind. Build it and I'll tell you. Hey, build even some of it and I'll comment on what you have ....
ok - that's fair enough... done.... Just follow the download link... http://sourceforge.net/projects/pythonpkgmgr/ David
David Lyon wrote:
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 10:33:46 +0100, Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
*If* there was an existing "python package manager", it is possible that it would provide compelling enough features to convince me to change my mind. Build it and I'll tell you. Hey, build even some of it and I'll comment on what you have ....
ok - that's fair enough... done....
Just follow the download link...
""" Traceback (most recent call last): File "PythonPackageManager.py", line 22, in <module> File "PythonPackageManager.py", line 18, in main File "wx\_core.pyc", line 7938, in __init__ File "wx\_core.pyc", line 7512, in _BootstrapApp File "PythonPackageManager.py", line 12, in OnInit File "MainWindow.pyc", line 29, in create File "MainWindow.pyc", line 374, in __init__ File "Packaging.pyc", line 94, in __init__ File "Packaging.pyc", line 600, in setworkingversion File "Packaging.pyc", line 686, in pythonversonlist WindowsError: [Error 2] The system cannot find the file specified """
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 16:11:45 +0100, Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> wrote:
Traceback (most recent call last): File "PythonPackageManager.py", line 22, in <module> File "PythonPackageManager.py", line 18, in main File "wx\_core.pyc", line 7938, in __init__ File "wx\_core.pyc", line 7512, in _BootstrapApp File "PythonPackageManager.py", line 12, in OnInit File "MainWindow.pyc", line 29, in create File "MainWindow.pyc", line 374, in __init__ File "Packaging.pyc", line 94, in __init__ File "Packaging.pyc", line 600, in setworkingversion File "Packaging.pyc", line 686, in pythonversonlist WindowsError: [Error 2] The system cannot find the file specified
"""
Thanks for testing it so quickly.... and reporting... I'll post it as a bug report... and look into it as soon as I am able... David
David Lyon wrote:
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 16:11:45 +0100, Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> wrote:
Traceback (most recent call last): File "PythonPackageManager.py", line 22, in <module> File "PythonPackageManager.py", line 18, in main File "wx\_core.pyc", line 7938, in __init__ File "wx\_core.pyc", line 7512, in _BootstrapApp File "PythonPackageManager.py", line 12, in OnInit File "MainWindow.pyc", line 29, in create File "MainWindow.pyc", line 374, in __init__ File "Packaging.pyc", line 94, in __init__ File "Packaging.pyc", line 600, in setworkingversion File "Packaging.pyc", line 686, in pythonversonlist WindowsError: [Error 2] The system cannot find the file specified
"""
Thanks for testing it so quickly.... and reporting...
I'll post it as a bug report...
and look into it as soon as I am able...
David
FWIW, the "C:\Program Files\Python Package Manager" directory it installed into looks very empty: """ C:\Program Files\Python Package Manager>dir /b gdiplus.dll msvcp71.dll MSVCR71.dll pkgmgr PythonPackageManager.exe PythonPackageManager.exe.log uninstall.exe """ Maybe something's up with your installer setup? TJG
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 16:25:08 +0100, Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> wrote:
C:\Program Files\Python Package Manager>dir /b gdiplus.dll msvcp71.dll MSVCR71.dll pkgmgr PythonPackageManager.exe PythonPackageManager.exe.log uninstall.exe
FWIW, the "C:\Program Files\Python Package Manager" directory it installed into looks very empty: """
Maybe something's up with your installer setup?
That looks correct.... there aren't many files... Perphaps you are using vista... The code is breaking where it is looking in the registry to see what versions of python are installed on your machine. I do accept the code is somewhat fragile at this point in time. I'm only testing on 2.2, 2.5, 2.6 under windows 2000, xp, and ubuntu at the moment. The only other thing I could suggest is to download from source on svn... svn co https://pythonpkgmgr.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pythonpkgmgr pythonpkgmgr I'd welcome any comments.. but I would certainly understand if you have other more important things to do.... David
David Lyon wrote:
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 16:25:08 +0100, Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> wrote:
C:\Program Files\Python Package Manager>dir /b gdiplus.dll msvcp71.dll MSVCR71.dll pkgmgr PythonPackageManager.exe PythonPackageManager.exe.log uninstall.exe
FWIW, the "C:\Program Files\Python Package Manager" directory it installed into looks very empty: """
Maybe something's up with your installer setup?
That looks correct.... there aren't many files...
Perphaps you are using vista...
Nope. XP SP3
The code is breaking where it is looking in the registry to see what versions of python are installed on your machine.
(Which is several; I've got 2.3 to 2.7 in the registry)
I do accept the code is somewhat fragile at this point in time. I'm only testing on 2.2, 2.5, 2.6 under windows 2000, xp, and ubuntu at the moment.
svn co https://pythonpkgmgr.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pythonpkgmgr pythonpkgmgr
I'll give that a try. TJG
Tim Golden wrote:
svn co https://pythonpkgmgr.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pythonpkgmgr pythonpkgmgr
I'll give that a try.
Not that I think it's necessarily the issue, but you've got mixed tabs and spaces in there, which is never a good recipe. I tried translating using 4 but didn't seem to work. Probably worth sorting that out... TJG
2009/6/3 David Lyon <david.lyon@preisshare.net>:
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 10:33:46 +0100, Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
*If* there was an existing "python package manager", it is possible that it would provide compelling enough features to convince me to change my mind. Build it and I'll tell you. Hey, build even some of it and I'll comment on what you have ....
ok - that's fair enough... done....
Just follow the download link...
Runs OK for me. I got it from Subversion and I'm running from source, FWIW. It recognises 4 of the packages I have installed, but doesn't see wxPython. So how do I install something? There's an "Install egg" menu item, so I guess I have to go & download an egg :-( (I think I already mentioned I don't like setuptools/eggs...) No egg for download for pygame. So you'll need to persuade them to build eggs. Or for nose. Or cx_Oracle. Sigh, this isn't looking good at the moment. Fouund an egg for genshi, I'll give it a try. (But it's version-specific, I have to download the Python 2.6 version, when genshi appears to be pure-python. That's a particular annoyance of eggs coming up again. Never mind. Tried to install the egg - I got an error "Execution of command 'C:\Apps\Python26\scripts\easy_install.exe C:\Users\Gustav\Documents\Genshi-0.5.1-py2.6-win32.egg' failed (error 740: the requested operation requires elevation.)" Looks like you need to support Windows Vista elevation. That's an advantage of normal (bdist_wininst or bdist_msi) installers - the system seems to do the elevation prompt for you. OK, that's as far as I can go without Vista support. Plus points: * It doesn't look bad for what I assume is a relatively new project * It detected (some of) my existing packages Minus points: * It uses eggs, and so even pure-python packages have to be distributed in version-specific binaries. Looks like I'll end up spending even more time building my own packages with this system * It doesn't work on Vista - bdist_wininst work unchanged on Vista, and so does easy_install genshi (by hand) so it's your code that needs updating (and may well need doing so again for Win7, etc...) * I can't install so I can't test uninstall, etc. * I can't tell at this stage if it uses the .pth files that easy_install does (but I guess so). * I assume that if I used it to uninstall one of my bdist_wininst-installed packages, it would fail to uninstall properly (leave the Add/Remove programs stuff behind). It should either do it properly or not allow it. So it's inheriting all the (in my view) bad points of eggs (that I've documented previously). I misunderstood your intention, I thought you were proposing something new - rather than simply wrapping eggs/easy_install to make it more acceptable to people like me. That's a reasonable goal (and you're not doing badly at it) but it leaves all of the fundamental non-UI issues with eggs intact. And I see nothing in this which would persuade a package developer who wasn't already distributing eggs to switch to doing so. So there's still the availability issue. (Made worse as your package, unlike easy_install, doesn't seem to be willing to consume source packages or bdist_wininst exes). I hope this helps. Paul.
2009/6/3 Ronald Oussoren <ronaldoussoren@mac.com>:
On 3 Jun, 2009, at 0:55, David Lyon wrote:
Eggs? If so, there are well-documented discussions over why some people (myself included) don't like eggs.
in a nutshell though.. whats wrong with eggs as far as pywin32 is concerned?
The aren't shown in the Add/Remove programs menu. The same discussion can be had about eggs vs. rpms on Linux, and having a package that is recognized by the operating system package manager is very useful when managing a system. Having all software managed by the same package manager makes live a lot easier when you need to inventory what software is installed on a system, and during upgrades.
Plus, the simple fact that there isn't an egg available for pywin32. (Note: don't take that as a request for one - if one existed I wouldn't use it for the reason mentioned by Ronald above). You'd have to ask Mark Hammond why he doesn't produce one. It may be just because his users don't want one, or there may be other reasons as well. Paul.
On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:32 AM, David Lyon <david.lyon@preisshare.net> wrote:
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:50:35 +0200, Tarek Ziadé <ziade.tarek@gmail.com> wrote:
1) Debian+ubuntu .deb support? working? not-working? Status?
The stdeb project provides a layer on the top of distutils for example to achieve this.
Oh ok - well the documentation should really lead people there.. imho
2) Mac Support? Working? same - how well? documentation is vague
What kind of mac support you are reffering to ? If you build something, it will work fine under mac
Well...
update the documentation.. the table near the top needs to reflect that.
I think Tarek is just pointing out that you can build a dist and it'll work on Mac OS X; AFAIK there's no explicit target for it (ala wininst or RPM).
snip of ... http://docs.python.org/distutils/builtdist.html ----- The available formats for built distributions are: Format Description Notes gztar gzipped tar file (.tar.gz) (1),(3) ztar compressed tar file (.tar.Z) (3) tar tar file (.tar) (3) zip zip file (.zip) (4) rpm RPM (5) pkgtool Solaris pkgtool sdux HP-UX swinstall rpm RPM (5) wininst self-extracting ZIP file for Windows (2),(4) -----
3) windows installers for packages - can we kill them? or how do we move to something better...
What do you mean by "killing them" ?
Remove from circulation.
I'm wondering what people think about having a gui interface to drive all this technical wizardry....
What would your GUI do precisely ?
Allow a novice to take a python "application" or "module" and run it through all those tools and end up with the desired built targets....
The kinds of things that need to be managed are:
- versioning - provision for documentation - compiling p2exe,py2app - windows installers
I'm not having too many new ideas because it appears these things are already implemented...
But in a simple example, a user has a (say) windows pc, wants to build for mac and linux... has no idea... clicks the appropriate check boxes... and it all "gets done"...
Perphaps even uploading the lot to their website or pypi...
distutils can probably provide the basis for a third-party application that wants to provide some GUI to drive some process.
hmmm... it's an interesting thought...
On the packaging side ? tons of things really
Yes, well I am very close to releasing a Package Manager GUI so I'm kindof concentrating on that first before I go take on any new commitments...
David
_______________________________________________ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig
On Jun 2, 2009, at 12:51 PM, Nathan Yergler wrote:
On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:32 AM, David Lyon <david.lyon@preisshare.net> wrote:
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:50:35 +0200, Tarek Ziadé <ziade.tarek@gmail.com> wrote:
1) Debian+ubuntu .deb support? working? not-working? Status?
The stdeb project provides a layer on the top of distutils for example to achieve this.
Oh ok - well the documentation should really lead people there.. imho
2) Mac Support? Working? same - how well? documentation is vague
What kind of mac support you are reffering to ? If you build something, it will work fine under mac
Well...
update the documentation.. the table near the top needs to reflect that.
I think Tarek is just pointing out that you can build a dist and it'll work on Mac OS X; AFAIK there's no explicit target for it (ala wininst or RPM).
There is makepkg or something, it is just a third party module like stdeb no? -- Leonardo Santagada santagada at gmail.com
On 2 Jun, 2009, at 20:11, Leonardo Santagada wrote:
On Jun 2, 2009, at 12:51 PM, Nathan Yergler wrote:
On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:32 AM, David Lyon <david.lyon@preisshare.net> wrote:
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:50:35 +0200, Tarek Ziadé <ziade.tarek@gmail.com
wrote:
1) Debian+ubuntu .deb support? working? not-working? Status?
The stdeb project provides a layer on the top of distutils for example to achieve this.
Oh ok - well the documentation should really lead people there.. imho
2) Mac Support? Working? same - how well? documentation is vague
What kind of mac support you are reffering to ? If you build something, it will work fine under mac
Well...
update the documentation.. the table near the top needs to reflect that.
I think Tarek is just pointing out that you can build a dist and it'll work on Mac OS X; AFAIK there's no explicit target for it (ala wininst or RPM).
There is makepkg or something, it is just a third party module like stdeb no?
bdist_mpkg, and it's on pypi. Ronald
-- Leonardo Santagada santagada at gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig
are you familiar with gui2exe: http://code.google.com/p/gui2exe/ cheers, Stef David Lyon wrote:
Hi All,
After being given the following page...:
http://docs.python.org/distutils/builtdist.html
I have some comments... distutils looks really good...
from the developer side....
Just some minor questions...
1) Debian+ubuntu .deb support? working? not-working? Status?
2) Mac Support? Working? same - how well? documentation is vague
3) windows installers for packages - can we kill them? or how do we move to something better...
I'm wondering what people think about having a gui interface to drive all this technical wizardry....
When I finish my current workload... I'm wondering what could be done to make things even better than they currently are on this front.
David
_______________________________________________ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig
participants (9)
-
David Lyon -
Leonardo Santagada -
Nathan Yergler -
Paul Moore -
Ronald Oussoren -
Stef Mientki -
Tarek Ziadé -
Tarek Ziadé -
Tim Golden