setuptools controversy (was Re: Prototype setuptools-specific PyPI index.)
At 12:56 AM 7/23/2007 -0400, Fred Drake wrote:
On 7/22/07, Phillip J. Eby <pje@telecommunity.com> wrote:
Setuptools has lots of features that are targeted at different audiences. There are plenty of features targeted at the group you're in, don't begrudge the other groups their features. :)
Actually, I suspect this is a substantial contributor to setuptools being considered controversial: it encompasses to many different features.
That's precisely my point, though: "too many" always means "has features I don't use", even though the features one person uses are considered superfluous by other parties, who consider the first person's "superfluous" features essential. However, I'm entirely reconciled to it being controversial. It is in fact impossible to have a significant impact on *anything* without creating controversy, as anyone involved with the history of Zope should be well aware. ;-) Usually, people think they can get away with making "simpler" versions of Zope because they don't understand the full range of requirements which it is intended to meet. The situation with setuptools is much the same, except that sometimes now it's the Zope folks making the accusations of too many features, excess complexity, evil, etc. :)
On 7/23/07, Phillip J. Eby <pje@telecommunity.com> wrote:
However, I'm entirely reconciled to it being controversial. It is in fact impossible to have a significant impact on *anything* without creating controversy, as anyone involved with the history of Zope should be well aware. ;-)
Our level of expertise in that is certainly substantial. :-)
Usually, people think they can get away with making "simpler" versions of Zope because they don't understand the full range of requirements which it is intended to meet. The situation with setuptools is much the same, except that sometimes now it's the Zope folks making the accusations of too many features, excess complexity, evil, etc. :)
I don't think I made an accusation myself. My concern is fed by my belief that setuptools tries to improve on distutils in many different ways, some of which seem better suited to separate tools. I've no problem with you disagreeing with me on this. :-) -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fdrake at gmail.com> "Chaos is the score upon which reality is written." --Henry Miller
On Jul 23, 2007, at 5:08 PM, Fred Drake wrote:
On 7/23/07, Phillip J. Eby <pje@telecommunity.com> wrote: ...
Usually, people think they can get away with making "simpler" versions of Zope because they don't understand the full range of requirements which it is intended to meet. The situation with setuptools is much the same, except that sometimes now it's the Zope folks making the accusations of too many features, excess complexity, evil, etc. :)
I can't find your message, so I'm responding via Fred's. I hope none of the "Zope folks" have said setuptools is evil. We're big fans and are adopting it whole heartedly. We want it to succeed. Speaking for myself, I think it would benefit from being simpler. It is a lot more complex that I suspect you realize. Of course, there are things I might do differently. But it is a great accomplishment. You should be very proud of it and we are very grateful. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org
Jim Fulton wrote:
On Jul 23, 2007, at 5:08 PM, Fred Drake wrote: [snip...] But it is a great accomplishment. You should be very proud of it and we are very grateful.
+1 Michael Foord http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/articles.shtml
At 05:56 PM 7/23/2007 -0400, Jim Fulton wrote:
On Jul 23, 2007, at 5:08 PM, Fred Drake wrote:
On 7/23/07, Phillip J. Eby <pje@telecommunity.com> wrote: ...
Usually, people think they can get away with making "simpler" versions of Zope because they don't understand the full range of requirements which it is intended to meet. The situation with setuptools is much the same, except that sometimes now it's the Zope folks making the accusations of too many features, excess complexity, evil, etc. :)
I can't find your message, so I'm responding via Fred's.
I hope none of the "Zope folks" have said setuptools is evil.
I was referring to your comments regarding case-insensitivity being considered harmful.
Speaking for myself, I think it would benefit from being simpler.
Good lord yes, and *I* of course would have benefited more than most, had that been possible. (Since I would've needed to do a lot less work.)
It is a lot more complex that I suspect you realize.
Right back at you. :) Except that in my case, the complexity I'm aware of is in the complexity of the requirements that had to be met to reach the goal of Total World Domination. If those requirements hadn't been met at the start, it would never have gotten so far as to allow for the luxury of discussing whether perhaps some of those requirements could have been overlooked or handled differently. (E.g., the recent progress on setuptools-specific indexing.)
Of course, there are things I might do differently.
Again, right back at you. :) If I had the luxury of being able to build up some kind of community consensus to use whatever was "pure" (as opposed to practical), I most likely would've done a lot of things differently. I certainly don't mind disagreement, in any case. It's just that somebody's got to weigh the cost and benefits of a decision, viewed over the entire scope of setuptools' many audiences, which sometimes means I'm going to Pronounce against something even when I agree with your view (within the scope of your perspective). Other times, simple backward-compatibility or other practical issues will rule out changing things that even I might myself consider to be a mistake in retrospect.
On Jul 23, 2007, at 3:56 PM, Jim Fulton wrote:
I hope none of the "Zope folks" have said setuptools is evil. We're big fans and are adopting it whole heartedly. We want it to succeed.
Speaking for myself, I think it would benefit from being simpler. It is a lot more complex that I suspect you realize. Of course, there are things I might do differently. But it is a great accomplishment. You should be very proud of it and we are very grateful.
Yes, hooray for setuptools! I hope that it continues to garner use and support so that it becomes a nexus of cooperation among programmers and users. Regards, Zooko
participants (5)
-
Fred Drake -
Jim Fulton -
Michael Foord -
Phillip J. Eby -
zooko