On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:11 AM, David Lyon wrote:

Tarek,

I wouldn't take "feedback" as all bad....

Indirectly, it seems like you are telling people not to report their experience. Indirectly, it seems like you are discouraging thinking about what could be done to improve things.

I am encouraging people to work with the people that have started to work on various topics durong Pycon

Here, we have a popular saying "Nothing ever gets fixed if people don't complain."

A roadmap is a good idea...

I think distutils needs one...

The rough roadmap was expressed during pycon main page : http://wiki.python.org/moin/Distutils main topics: - have a standard version comparison API - http://wiki.python.org/moin/DistutilsVersionFight - standardize egg-info: http://wiki.python.org/moin/Distutils/StandardizeEggInfo - finalize the new PEP 345 - http://wiki.python.org/moin/Distutils/Metadata - work on the static metadata concept - http://wiki.python.org/moin/Distutils/StaticMetadata - work on extendding commands - http://wiki.python.org/moin/Distutils/ManifestPluginSystem/Draft

David

On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:34:06 +0200, Tarek Ziadé wrote:

...

Remainder about Distutils:

- we did a summit at Pycon about distutils - some people started to work on various tasks (PEPs, etc)

Can everyone here who says "distutils sucks" "setuptools sucks", "let's rewrite them from scratch" hear that:

Just join the work in progress, help on the PEP, uses cases, and stop whining about the situation !!!!

Thank you

_______________________________________________ Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

-- Tarek Ziadé | http://ziade.org

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Paul Moore wrote:

2009/4/21 Tarek Ziadé :

...

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:11 AM, David Lyon wrote:

...

Tarek,

I wouldn't take "feedback" as all bad....

Indirectly, it seems like you are telling people not to report their experience. Indirectly, it seems like you are discouraging thinking about what could be done to improve things.

I am encouraging people to work with the people that have started to work on various topics durong Pycon

Given that I have not got the time or experience with setuptools or distutils to contribute effort to fixing things, you seem to be saying that my experience as an end user of these tools, and my spending my time trying to understand the implications of the proposals so that I can offer useful feedback, is not of interest.

I have never said that. On the contrary, I encourage you to fill your use case as an end user in the wiki.

So be it. I'll stop commenting.

Please let me know when "the work" is complete, and end user feedback (or "whining", if you prefer) is welcome again.

I think you misunderstood my point. I am reacting to the people that are most of the time quite involved in this area and are discussing in the various threads about how Distutils is very bad code and should be replaced from a new tool from scratch. This is going on for over a year, and since Pycon we are trying to push forward and write things down to try to fix things. While discussing in this list is vital, having plans/use case written down in the wiki, everyone can look at, work on, is the way to go imho. At the summit, we discussed about the raw roadmap validated by Guido, and people have started to sprint. Currently, various people are working on various pre-PEP, use cases, etc. Some threads are going a little backward and I am scared to loose the momentum. So my point is : please don't be offended by my previous mail, and please don't stop to provide feedback. That was a bad reaction I admit, I am sorry. I'll try to make things clearer by updating the wiki page maybe, or the python.org page

Paul.

-- Tarek Ziadé | http://ziade.org

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Paul Moore wrote:

One concrete point - The categories on the wiki don't really give me much help in knowing where to put my use case. I'm a user of Python packages - all I care about is running the installer, or if I must typing python setup.py bdist_wininst. So these aren't relevant, as they are developer-oriented:

   DistutilsVersionFight    Distutils/StandardizeEggInfo    Distutils/Metadata    Distutils/StaticMetadata    Distutils/ManifestPluginSystem    Distutils/TestingInfrastructure

Right, I have started to work on its reorganization

FWIW, I did post my use case here some days ago, with a request that someone suggest/find a home for it on the wiki, as I wasn't sure where it went. To my knowledge, no-one ever did that. I'd still appreciate it if someone could copy it to the wiki. But trying to understand the various threads and arguments on the list has sapped most of my energy, so I'm not going to try to guess where it should go.

I'll push it into the wiki, thanks Tarek -- Tarek Ziadé | http://ziade.org

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Ben Finney wrote:

Tarek Ziadé writes:

...

Just join the work in progress, help on the PEP, uses cases, and stop whining about the situation !!!!

URLs please.

...

Thank you

And you.

See my answer to David, I'll work on the wiki to make things more clear in the coming days. (for instance adding the name of the "leader" in front of each task) Feel free to add some tasks, I'll eventually make sure they are not part of an existing task