Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?
TL;DR: OK to archive this mailing list? Reply by Aug 30th. Below: Context, Proposal, Reasoning, and timeline. *Context*: For multiple years now, we've been advising users to use setuptools and to move away from using distutils. There has been a long standing plan [^1] to vendor distutils into setuptools to allow it to evolve independently of the Python standard library and to allow for removal of distutils from the Python standard library. Recently, setuptools adopted the distutils [^2] which, as far as I can tell, starts the long process of removing distutils from the Python standard library. PEP 517 [^3] also removed the special status of distutils/setuptools as the only pipeline that can be used for generating distributions for Python projects. For some time now, "distutils" has not been a "primary" tool in the broader Python Packaging ecosystem, with setuptools being an overall superior tool that also has a good interoperability story with the other Python packaging tooling. This is acknowledged in the description of this mailing list as:
Now, it's better described as the "packaging interoperability SIG", where issues that cut across different parts of the Python packaging ecosystem get discussed and resolved.
However, this mailing list is no longer serving this stated role either, with the Packaging category on discuss.python.org becoming the primary location for packaging tool interoperability discussions. Over the last year, the Packaging category on discuss.python.org had 841 active topics, with only 40 topics with 3 or fewer responses. [^5] In the last 100 days, the Packaging category on discuss.python.org has had 91 active topics. More than 10 PEPs have been discussed in the Packaging category on discuss.python.org in the last 100 days. Over the last year, distutils-sig had ~109 active threads, with (based on a quick skim) most having 3 or fewer responses/posters. [^4] In the last 100 days, distutils-sig has had 32 active threads (at least 7 of these have the same subject as another thread with Re:/Fwd: added). There has been only 1 PEP-related feedback discussion on distutils-sig in the last year. Most of the other threads are user support requests or announcements. *Proposal*: I suggest that, one month from now, we stop posting to this list (distutils-sig@python.org) and archive it. *Reasoning*: I think we do not use this mailing list for its dedicated purpose, and it does not serve any secondary function that isn't better served by a different communication channel already. (1) this mailing list is no longer the primary location for interoperability discussions (2) we have better channels for user support requests (such as issue trackers of various projects, packaging-problems etc.) (3) we have other channels for making announcements (such as the pypi-announce mailing list, the PyPA twitter account, discuss.python.org etc.) *Timeline*: Here's what I suggest, and what I will carry out if there is no objection. In one month, on August 30th, I would verify that no one has argued here for why this mailing list should not be closed/archived. Or, even if a few people have objected to closing the list, I would check for rough consensus, especially of people who are doing SOMETHING productive having to do with Python Packaging (such as maintainers of Python packages, maintainers of Python Packaging tooling, folks running key infrastructure, etc.). Then, I would request the list administrators to post a final message to this list (marking its close and suggesting that people use discuss.python.org instead) and, to archive this mailing list. This would leave archives available at their current URLs, so links, browsing and search would work. And finally, I would look through relevant documentation within PyPA repositories to see what needs updating (READMEs and so on pointing to the old list), and submit pull requests. I appreciate the work folks here have done to carry forward Python packaging over the past 21 years of this mailing list. I don't mean to diminish that or to insult anyone here. I want to help us out, and I think closing this list will help focus our energy better. But I am open to hearing that I am wrong. Realizing-that-distutils-sig-is-older-than-me-ly, Pradyun Gedam [^1]: https://www.pypa.io/en/latest/roadmap/#vendor-distutils-into-setuptools [^2]: https://github.com/pypa/setuptools/pull/2143 [^3]: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0517/ [^4]: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/latest?count=110&page=1 [^5]: https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging/14/l/top/yearly?order=posts
On 2020-07-30 07:17:03 +0530 (+0530), Pradyun Gedam wrote:
TL;DR: OK to archive this mailing list? Reply by Aug 30th. [...]
I find it disappointing that there will no longer be a mailing list for discussions of Python packaging. Web forums with some E-mail integration are hardly the same. But those of us who still use E-mail (and worse, Usenet) eventually need to get out of the way of the wheels of progress lest they run us over. Many thanks to those who have maintained, moderated, and collaborated through this list over the years. It has been much appreciated. -- Jeremy Stanley
On 7/29/20 10:14 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2020-07-30 07:17:03 +0530 (+0530), Pradyun Gedam wrote:
TL;DR: OK to archive this mailing list? Reply by Aug 30th. [...]
I find it disappointing that there will no longer be a mailing list for discussions of Python packaging. Web forums with some E-mail integration are hardly the same. But those of us who still use E-mail (and worse, Usenet) eventually need to get out of the way of the wheels of progress lest they run us over.
Many thanks to those who have maintained, moderated, and collaborated through this list over the years. It has been much appreciated.
Jeremy, I'm not sure whether you were serious? If your disappointment is only out of nostalgia, then yeah, accepting change makes sense. But if your disappointment is because the Discourse experience is/will be worse for your participation, then it's totally fine to speak up and tell us how. Pradyun, thanks for starting this conversation. I am definitely interested in consolidating our conversational channels and reducing fragmentation, but I have substantial reservations about taking this particular step: * The majority of information overwhelm in my PyPA-related life is because of GitHub repo and issue sprawl -- if we're going to put energy into pruning sprawling communications venues, I would prefer that we spend some time inventorying all the teams, shutting some down, and locking noisy issues/repositories. * I would like to know, of our ~700 list members, how many of them have serious problems using Discourse -- accessibility, user experience, sheer tech problems, etc. I suspect that we have several members in that category, some who contribute to packaging, some who lurk so they can stay apprised and bridge to other communities (distributions, major packages, etc.). On Discourse I've seen https://discuss.python.org/t/disappointed-and-overwhelmed-by-discourse/982 , https://discuss.python.org/t/if-mailing-list-mode-were-better/3951 , and https://discuss.python.org/t/e-mail-settings-are-not-respected/396 talking about problems people have had keeping up with/watching and participating in conversations on Discourse -- including Paul Moore and Paul Ganssle, whose opinions I really want to hear from here. I believe I've heard Dan Ryan say that he finds Discourse practically unusable, and I'd like to hear from him as well. * There are some things I don't like about how Discourse shapes our conversations. Some examples: I think people are chattier on Discourse, posting shorter replies more frequently, and that's not always good. In the email notifications, Discourse preserves threading so I can see better who's replying to whom, but the web view is flat which makes that harder to see. And -- as came up in https://discuss.python.org/t/pep-458-secure-pypi-downloads-with-package-sign... -- people use the heart/"like" button in different ways that have led to confusion. “Liking” a post on Discourse does not have clear semantics. It could mean “I like how you expressed this” or “I’m glad you spoke” or “welcome” or “yes, please do the things you have proposed, I approve" and there's no way of telling without explicit explanation. * Discourse is written in Ruby and I have rarely seen Discourse developers interact with us, and I don't believe I've ever seen (in the "Discourse feedback" threads above) any Python community member saying that they could try to fix a problem we were seeing with Discourse. The more we lock in to using Discourse and moving away from Mailman -- written in Python 3 and now with a web frontend that includes search, posting, and threaded archive views -- the more we give up control of our tools. What if we bridged them, instead? Barry Warsaw in https://discuss.python.org/t/disappointed-and-overwhelmed-by-discourse/982/1... suggested:
My ultimate dream would be to add an IMAP and/or NNTP interface directly to [Mailman 3/HyperKitty]. Then I could use my normal mail application to catch up and interact with Mailman lists in a very lightweight way, driven entirely by my own workflow. That plus a Discourse bridge would be a pretty powerful and flexible combination.
Is that something that other folks here who have trouble with Discourse would find fruitful? If so, we can start pushing to make it happen. -- Sumana Harihareswara Changeset Consulting https://changeset.nyc
On Thu, 30 Jul 2020 at 14:52, Sumana Harihareswara <sh@changeset.nyc> wrote:
On 7/29/20 10:14 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2020-07-30 07:17:03 +0530 (+0530), Pradyun Gedam wrote:
TL;DR: OK to archive this mailing list? Reply by Aug 30th. [...]
I find it disappointing that there will no longer be a mailing list for discussions of Python packaging. Web forums with some E-mail integration are hardly the same. But those of us who still use E-mail (and worse, Usenet) eventually need to get out of the way of the wheels of progress lest they run us over.
Many thanks to those who have maintained, moderated, and collaborated through this list over the years. It has been much appreciated.
Jeremy, I'm not sure whether you were serious? If your disappointment is only out of nostalgia, then yeah, accepting change makes sense. But if your disappointment is because the Discourse experience is/will be worse for your participation, then it's totally fine to speak up and tell us how.
Discourse requires about 10x the effort to participate in the community. It's "mailing list mode" sends garbled fragments of interwoved WYSIWYG documents that are unintelligible - I tried it for some months when the Pyython Discourse started up but had to turn it off after a while as I really couldn't effectively tell what was being said in a conversation that comes in via it. And its so siloed, I may as well not be in the conversation at all: I have to actively go and log into the website to look and see what new conversations are happening, which in my time poor situation just doesn't happen. So, for all intents and purposes, I'm not participating in any conversation in Discourse at all, except for a rare helicopter drop-in when someone pings me on email or Twitter or Slack or Discord to say 'hey, you should comment on <URL>'. I full well recognise the advantage that these properties have when dealing with a bulk of (largely) newcomers whose community use case is to sample discussion: to find one or two things that have been said previously via search, ask some questions to get a problem solved, and then move on. Relatively few of those users will be publishing packages though; even with the rise of docker : consuming Python in a local script or workbook is still the majority use case I think, so the bulk of the work we do affects a (large) fraction of users, and most of those users are experienced by the time they need our assistance. Pradyun, thanks for starting this conversation.
I am definitely interested in consolidating our conversational channels and reducing fragmentation, but I have substantial reservations about taking this particular step:
* The majority of information overwhelm in my PyPA-related life is because of GitHub repo and issue sprawl -- if we're going to put energy into pruning sprawling communications venues, I would prefer that we spend some time inventorying all the teams, shutting some down, and locking noisy issues/repositories.
Agreed with the above.
* I would like to know, of our ~700 list members, how many of them have serious problems using Discourse -- accessibility, user experience, sheer tech problems, etc. I suspect that we have several members in that category, some who contribute to packaging, some who lurk so they can stay apprised and bridge to other communities (distributions, major packages, etc.).
I have contributed a fair degree in the past; I'm largely if not entirely emeritus at this point - I get to code only from time to time in my day job, and then it is rarely Python. I like to stay in touch, both because I can provide some institutional continuity, but also I do enjoy helping from time to time, when I can. I hope these thoughts are useful. -Rob On Discourse I've seen
https://discuss.python.org/t/disappointed-and-overwhelmed-by-discourse/982 , https://discuss.python.org/t/if-mailing-list-mode-were-better/3951 , and https://discuss.python.org/t/e-mail-settings-are-not-respected/396 talking about problems people have had keeping up with/watching and participating in conversations on Discourse -- including Paul Moore and Paul Ganssle, whose opinions I really want to hear from here. I believe I've heard Dan Ryan say that he finds Discourse practically unusable, and I'd like to hear from him as well.
* There are some things I don't like about how Discourse shapes our conversations. Some examples: I think people are chattier on Discourse, posting shorter replies more frequently, and that's not always good. In the email notifications, Discourse preserves threading so I can see better who's replying to whom, but the web view is flat which makes that harder to see. And -- as came up in
https://discuss.python.org/t/pep-458-secure-pypi-downloads-with-package-sign... -- people use the heart/"like" button in different ways that have led to confusion. “Liking” a post on Discourse does not have clear semantics. It could mean “I like how you expressed this” or “I’m glad you spoke” or “welcome” or “yes, please do the things you have proposed, I approve" and there's no way of telling without explicit explanation.
* Discourse is written in Ruby and I have rarely seen Discourse developers interact with us, and I don't believe I've ever seen (in the "Discourse feedback" threads above) any Python community member saying that they could try to fix a problem we were seeing with Discourse. The more we lock in to using Discourse and moving away from Mailman -- written in Python 3 and now with a web frontend that includes search, posting, and threaded archive views -- the more we give up control of our tools.
What if we bridged them, instead? Barry Warsaw in
https://discuss.python.org/t/disappointed-and-overwhelmed-by-discourse/982/1... suggested:
My ultimate dream would be to add an IMAP and/or NNTP interface directly to [Mailman 3/HyperKitty]. Then I could use my normal mail application to catch up and interact with Mailman lists in a very lightweight way, driven entirely by my own workflow. That plus a Discourse bridge would be a pretty powerful and flexible combination.
Is that something that other folks here who have trouble with Discourse would find fruitful? If so, we can start pushing to make it happen.
-- Sumana Harihareswara Changeset Consulting https://changeset.nyc -- Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/BBB6R...
On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 5:39 AM Robert Collins <robertc@robertcollins.net> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jul 2020 at 14:52, Sumana Harihareswara <sh@changeset.nyc> wrote:
On 7/29/20 10:14 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2020-07-30 07:17:03 +0530 (+0530), Pradyun Gedam wrote:
TL;DR: OK to archive this mailing list? Reply by Aug 30th. [...]
I find it disappointing that there will no longer be a mailing list for discussions of Python packaging. Web forums with some E-mail integration are hardly the same. But those of us who still use E-mail (and worse, Usenet) eventually need to get out of the way of the wheels of progress lest they run us over.
Many thanks to those who have maintained, moderated, and collaborated through this list over the years. It has been much appreciated.
Jeremy, I'm not sure whether you were serious? If your disappointment is only out of nostalgia, then yeah, accepting change makes sense. But if your disappointment is because the Discourse experience is/will be worse for your participation, then it's totally fine to speak up and tell us how.
Discourse requires about 10x the effort to participate in the community. It's "mailing list mode" sends garbled fragments of interwoved WYSIWYG documents that are unintelligible - I tried it for some months when the Pyython Discourse started up but had to turn it off after a while as I really couldn't effectively tell what was being said in a conversation that comes in via it.
I definitely agree with this.
And its so siloed, I may as well not be in the conversation at all: I have to actively go and log into the website to look and see what new conversations are happening, which in my time poor situation just doesn't happen. So, for all intents and purposes, I'm not participating in any conversation in Discourse at all, except for a rare helicopter drop-in when someone pings me on email or Twitter or Slack or Discord to say 'hey, you should comment on <URL>'.
With email, I don't have to monitor heavily what topics I'm subscribed to and if someone starts a discussion I'm uninterested in, I can mute it. With Discourse it hasn't respected my desires to unsubscribe from a thread's notifications and I still get emails from a thread from Rust's Discourse from 2 years ago. I have generally the same sentiment as Jeremy and Rob though. I'm more or less an emeritus member of this community (although I still try to collaborate on Twine and keep up with general packaging discussions and direction). Things have already started moving to Discourse though and surprising me on twine because no one remembered me as part of the team. So, Discourse has already made me want to work on Twine less. I will say that my impression of the ability to moderate Discourse is lower friction/less difficult than to moderate a mailing list (although mailman 3 is pretty great). I don't think that's a point in Discourse's favor to be overlooked.
I full well recognise the advantage that these properties have when dealing with a bulk of (largely) newcomers whose community use case is to sample discussion: to find one or two things that have been said previously via search, ask some questions to get a problem solved, and then move on.
Relatively few of those users will be publishing packages though; even with the rise of docker : consuming Python in a local script or workbook is still the majority use case I think, so the bulk of the work we do affects a (large) fraction of users, and most of those users are experienced by the time they need our assistance.
Pradyun, thanks for starting this conversation.
I am definitely interested in consolidating our conversational channels and reducing fragmentation, but I have substantial reservations about taking this particular step:
* The majority of information overwhelm in my PyPA-related life is because of GitHub repo and issue sprawl -- if we're going to put energy into pruning sprawling communications venues, I would prefer that we spend some time inventorying all the teams, shutting some down, and locking noisy issues/repositories.
Agreed with the above.
* I would like to know, of our ~700 list members, how many of them have serious problems using Discourse -- accessibility, user experience, sheer tech problems, etc. I suspect that we have several members in that category, some who contribute to packaging, some who lurk so they can stay apprised and bridge to other communities (distributions, major packages, etc.).
I have contributed a fair degree in the past; I'm largely if not entirely emeritus at this point - I get to code only from time to time in my day job, and then it is rarely Python. I like to stay in touch, both because I can provide some institutional continuity, but also I do enjoy helping from time to time, when I can.
I hope these thoughts are useful.
-Rob
On Discourse I've seen https://discuss.python.org/t/disappointed-and-overwhelmed-by-discourse/982 , https://discuss.python.org/t/if-mailing-list-mode-were-better/3951 , and https://discuss.python.org/t/e-mail-settings-are-not-respected/396 talking about problems people have had keeping up with/watching and participating in conversations on Discourse -- including Paul Moore and Paul Ganssle, whose opinions I really want to hear from here. I believe I've heard Dan Ryan say that he finds Discourse practically unusable, and I'd like to hear from him as well.
* There are some things I don't like about how Discourse shapes our conversations. Some examples: I think people are chattier on Discourse, posting shorter replies more frequently, and that's not always good. In the email notifications, Discourse preserves threading so I can see better who's replying to whom, but the web view is flat which makes that harder to see. And -- as came up in https://discuss.python.org/t/pep-458-secure-pypi-downloads-with-package-sign... -- people use the heart/"like" button in different ways that have led to confusion. “Liking” a post on Discourse does not have clear semantics. It could mean “I like how you expressed this” or “I’m glad you spoke” or “welcome” or “yes, please do the things you have proposed, I approve" and there's no way of telling without explicit explanation.
* Discourse is written in Ruby and I have rarely seen Discourse developers interact with us, and I don't believe I've ever seen (in the "Discourse feedback" threads above) any Python community member saying that they could try to fix a problem we were seeing with Discourse. The more we lock in to using Discourse and moving away from Mailman -- written in Python 3 and now with a web frontend that includes search, posting, and threaded archive views -- the more we give up control of our tools.
What if we bridged them, instead? Barry Warsaw in https://discuss.python.org/t/disappointed-and-overwhelmed-by-discourse/982/1... suggested:
My ultimate dream would be to add an IMAP and/or NNTP interface directly to [Mailman 3/HyperKitty]. Then I could use my normal mail application to catch up and interact with Mailman lists in a very lightweight way, driven entirely by my own workflow. That plus a Discourse bridge would be a pretty powerful and flexible combination.
Is that something that other folks here who have trouble with Discourse would find fruitful? If so, we can start pushing to make it happen.
-- Sumana Harihareswara Changeset Consulting https://changeset.nyc -- Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/BBB6R...
-- Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/4ALXV...
I think it's natural that people on the mailing list will favour the mailing list over Discourse, just as when asked this question on Discourse voted for the forum over the mailing list. Taking a more practical look at the issue, I want to note that 99% of the discussion about packaging and its future/peps has happened on the Discourse forum for the last 6 months. The amount of chatter on this mailing list is almost zero, so having the mailing list can be confusing to new users, as it might give the wrongful impression that this is the platform to discuss things, while in practice it's the Discourse. This is why we were thinking to remove the mailing list, because active development and design discussion moved off from it. Bernat On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 12:39 PM Ian Stapleton Cordasco < graffatcolmingov@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 5:39 AM Robert Collins <robertc@robertcollins.net> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jul 2020 at 14:52, Sumana Harihareswara <sh@changeset.nyc>
wrote:
On 7/29/20 10:14 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
On 2020-07-30 07:17:03 +0530 (+0530), Pradyun Gedam wrote:
TL;DR: OK to archive this mailing list? Reply by Aug 30th. [...]
I find it disappointing that there will no longer be a mailing list for discussions of Python packaging. Web forums with some E-mail integration are hardly the same. But those of us who still use E-mail (and worse, Usenet) eventually need to get out of the way of the wheels of progress lest they run us over.
Many thanks to those who have maintained, moderated, and collaborated through this list over the years. It has been much appreciated.
Jeremy, I'm not sure whether you were serious? If your disappointment is only out of nostalgia, then yeah, accepting change makes sense. But if your disappointment is because the Discourse experience is/will be worse for your participation, then it's totally fine to speak up and tell us
how.
Discourse requires about 10x the effort to participate in the community. It's "mailing list mode" sends garbled fragments of interwoved WYSIWYG documents that are unintelligible - I tried it for some months when the Pyython Discourse started up but had to turn it off after a while as I really couldn't effectively tell what was being said in a conversation that comes in via it.
I definitely agree with this.
And its so siloed, I may as well not be in the conversation at all: I
have to actively go and log into the website to look and see what new conversations are happening, which in my time poor situation just doesn't happen. So, for all intents and purposes, I'm not participating in any conversation in Discourse at all, except for a rare helicopter drop-in when someone pings me on email or Twitter or Slack or Discord to say 'hey, you should comment on <URL>'.
With email, I don't have to monitor heavily what topics I'm subscribed to and if someone starts a discussion I'm uninterested in, I can mute it. With Discourse it hasn't respected my desires to unsubscribe from a thread's notifications and I still get emails from a thread from Rust's Discourse from 2 years ago.
I have generally the same sentiment as Jeremy and Rob though. I'm more or less an emeritus member of this community (although I still try to collaborate on Twine and keep up with general packaging discussions and direction). Things have already started moving to Discourse though and surprising me on twine because no one remembered me as part of the team. So, Discourse has already made me want to work on Twine less.
I will say that my impression of the ability to moderate Discourse is lower friction/less difficult than to moderate a mailing list (although mailman 3 is pretty great). I don't think that's a point in Discourse's favor to be overlooked.
I full well recognise the advantage that these properties have when
dealing with a bulk of (largely) newcomers whose community use case is to sample discussion: to find one or two things that have been said previously via search, ask some questions to get a problem solved, and then move on.
Relatively few of those users will be publishing packages though; even
with the rise of docker : consuming Python in a local script or workbook is still the majority use case I think, so the bulk of the work we do affects a (large) fraction of users, and most of those users are experienced by the time they need our assistance.
Pradyun, thanks for starting this conversation.
I am definitely interested in consolidating our conversational channels and reducing fragmentation, but I have substantial reservations about taking this particular step:
* The majority of information overwhelm in my PyPA-related life is because of GitHub repo and issue sprawl -- if we're going to put energy into pruning sprawling communications venues, I would prefer that we spend some time inventorying all the teams, shutting some down, and locking noisy issues/repositories.
Agreed with the above.
* I would like to know, of our ~700 list members, how many of them have serious problems using Discourse -- accessibility, user experience, sheer tech problems, etc. I suspect that we have several members in that category, some who contribute to packaging, some who lurk so they can stay apprised and bridge to other communities (distributions, major packages, etc.).
I have contributed a fair degree in the past; I'm largely if not
entirely emeritus at this point - I get to code only from time to time in my day job, and then it is rarely Python. I like to stay in touch, both because I can provide some institutional continuity, but also I do enjoy helping from time to time, when I can.
I hope these thoughts are useful.
-Rob
On Discourse I've seen
, https://discuss.python.org/t/if-mailing-list-mode-were-better/3951 , and https://discuss.python.org/t/e-mail-settings-are-not-respected/396 talking about problems people have had keeping up with/watching and participating in conversations on Discourse -- including Paul Moore and Paul Ganssle, whose opinions I really want to hear from here. I believe I've heard Dan Ryan say that he finds Discourse practically unusable, and I'd like to hear from him as well.
* There are some things I don't like about how Discourse shapes our conversations. Some examples: I think people are chattier on Discourse, posting shorter replies more frequently, and that's not always good. In the email notifications, Discourse preserves threading so I can see better who's replying to whom, but the web view is flat which makes that harder to see. And -- as came up in
https://discuss.python.org/t/pep-458-secure-pypi-downloads-with-package-sign...
-- people use the heart/"like" button in different ways that have led to confusion. “Liking” a post on Discourse does not have clear semantics. It could mean “I like how you expressed this” or “I’m glad you spoke” or “welcome” or “yes, please do the things you have proposed, I approve" and there's no way of telling without explicit explanation.
* Discourse is written in Ruby and I have rarely seen Discourse developers interact with us, and I don't believe I've ever seen (in the "Discourse feedback" threads above) any Python community member saying that they could try to fix a problem we were seeing with Discourse. The more we lock in to using Discourse and moving away from Mailman -- written in Python 3 and now with a web frontend that includes search, posting, and threaded archive views -- the more we give up control of our tools.
What if we bridged them, instead? Barry Warsaw in
https://discuss.python.org/t/disappointed-and-overwhelmed-by-discourse/982/1...
suggested:
My ultimate dream would be to add an IMAP and/or NNTP interface
https://discuss.python.org/t/disappointed-and-overwhelmed-by-discourse/982 directly to [Mailman 3/HyperKitty]. Then I could use my normal mail application to catch up and interact with Mailman lists in a very lightweight way, driven entirely by my own workflow. That plus a Discourse bridge would be a pretty powerful and flexible combination.
Is that something that other folks here who have trouble with Discourse would find fruitful? If so, we can start pushing to make it happen.
-- Sumana Harihareswara Changeset Consulting https://changeset.nyc -- Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ Message archived at
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/BBB6R...
-- Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/4ALXV... -- Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/C2V4T...
On Thu, 30 Jul 2020 at 03:53, Sumana Harihareswara <sh@changeset.nyc> wrote:
On Discourse I've seen https://discuss.python.org/t/disappointed-and-overwhelmed-by-discourse/982 , https://discuss.python.org/t/if-mailing-list-mode-were-better/3951 , and https://discuss.python.org/t/e-mail-settings-are-not-respected/396 talking about problems people have had keeping up with/watching and participating in conversations on Discourse -- including Paul Moore and Paul Ganssle, whose opinions I really want to hear from here. I believe I've heard Dan Ryan say that he finds Discourse practically unusable, and I'd like to hear from him as well.
My view on Discourse is not entirely relevant here, as I will (of necessity) use the forum where the discussions are happening. So as long as Discourse is where the majority of discussion occurs, I'll follow it (regardless of my personal views of the platform). I don't think anyone is suggesting shutting down Discourse and forcing traffic back to distutils-sig, so my only real view here is "one less place to monitor". But distutils-sig is quiet enough these days that this isn't a huge benefit. The real questions for me are: 1. Will dropping distutils-sig mean that people who prefer interacting here lose their voice in packaging discussions? 2. Will having one fewer "recommended place" to start discussions make it easier for new participants to get involved? I don't have any insights into either of these questions, though. Paul
On 2020-07-30 11:51:24 +0100 (+0100), Paul Moore wrote: [...]
1. Will dropping distutils-sig mean that people who prefer interacting here lose their voice in packaging discussions?
Probably not. I think the fact that most of the list's prior conversation has already moved to Discourse means this is already the case, and so closing this ML is probably more a reflection of the reality that those voices are effectively absent in relevant conversations now.
2. Will having one fewer "recommended place" to start discussions make it easier for new participants to get involved? [...]
Maybe. But as I've seen in many other communities, discussions start organically in a variety of places and platforms, and are rarely constrained by community consensus "recommendations" of venue. -- Jeremy Stanley
I confess that I don't even know how to subscribe to all threads of a discourse. - [ ] How to subscribe to all threads of discourse So, I'd miss security or release announcements only posted to discourse and not distutils-sig (or pypa-dev, which IMHO has the more appropriate scope name in that packaging and PyPI are somewhat inseparable) Is there some convenient way to cryptographically-sign Discourse posts? Maybe with e.g. OpenPGP.js? Or is that unnecessary these days. Discourse in Python would be great to have. https://github.com/discourse/discourse (Rails) https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius (Django) Having mailing list discussions archived in one's searchable inbox is underrated, IMHO Being able to link to specific messages within a thread using permalinks is very useful; though most won't even read it On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:24 AM Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> wrote:
On 2020-07-30 11:51:24 +0100 (+0100), Paul Moore wrote: [...]
1. Will dropping distutils-sig mean that people who prefer interacting here lose their voice in packaging discussions?
Probably not. I think the fact that most of the list's prior conversation has already moved to Discourse means this is already the case, and so closing this ML is probably more a reflection of the reality that those voices are effectively absent in relevant conversations now.
2. Will having one fewer "recommended place" to start discussions make it easier for new participants to get involved? [...]
Maybe. But as I've seen in many other communities, discussions start organically in a variety of places and platforms, and are rarely constrained by community consensus "recommendations" of venue. -- Jeremy Stanley -- Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/PCUVO...
On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 8:41 AM Wes Turner <wes.turner@gmail.com> wrote:
I confess that I don't even know how to subscribe to all threads of a discourse.
- [ ] How to subscribe to all threads of discourse
Go to the category you care about, e.g. https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging/14, and if you look in the right side next to "+ New Topic" you will see a bell. you can click that and choose to what level you want to follow new topics (only new threads, notification of all comments, direct notification of all comments, etc.). -Brett
So, I'd miss security or release announcements only posted to discourse and not distutils-sig (or pypa-dev, which IMHO has the more appropriate scope name in that packaging and PyPI are somewhat inseparable)
Is there some convenient way to cryptographically-sign Discourse posts? Maybe with e.g. OpenPGP.js? Or is that unnecessary these days.
Discourse in Python would be great to have.
https://github.com/discourse/discourse (Rails)
https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman
https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius (Django)
Having mailing list discussions archived in one's searchable inbox is underrated, IMHO
Being able to link to specific messages within a thread using permalinks is very useful; though most won't even read it
On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:24 AM Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> wrote:
On 2020-07-30 11:51:24 +0100 (+0100), Paul Moore wrote: [...]
1. Will dropping distutils-sig mean that people who prefer interacting here lose their voice in packaging discussions?
Probably not. I think the fact that most of the list's prior conversation has already moved to Discourse means this is already the case, and so closing this ML is probably more a reflection of the reality that those voices are effectively absent in relevant conversations now.
2. Will having one fewer "recommended place" to start discussions make it easier for new participants to get involved? [...]
Maybe. But as I've seen in many other communities, discussions start organically in a variety of places and platforms, and are rarely constrained by community consensus "recommendations" of venue. -- Jeremy Stanley -- Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/PCUVO...
-- Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/6ULNQ...
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 23:03, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 8:41 AM Wes Turner <wes.turner@gmail.com> wrote:
I confess that I don't even know how to subscribe to all threads of a discourse.
- [ ] How to subscribe to all threads of discourse
Go to the category you care about, e.g. https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging/14, and if you look in the right side next to "+ New Topic" you will see a bell. you can click that and choose to what level you want to follow new topics (only new threads, notification of all comments, direct notification of all comments, etc.).
What I haven't quite got my head around is: what exactly is the "workflow" with discourse if you are a regular follower/contributor on some forum? Do people who use it a lot begin by going to the forum website? Do they get the email notifications and interact via those? I've been working with discourse in the latter mode and from that perspective it seems inferior. If the expectation is that I have to begin by going to the website then that changes my fundamental approach. Right now I subscribe to many mailing lists and they all route to an IMAP folder. When I feel like browsing them I can go in and skim messages from a wide variety of mailing lists. The other process seems to be that I begin by choosing to go to the discourse forum website in order to look at messages in a particular forum that I actively choose to look at at that particular time. If that's the case then I would inevitably end up following fewer mailing lists/forums since each one requires a momentary active decision from me to read that particular list. I can imagine that that might reduce the wider participation that is a big part of the purpose of these lists. Maybe other people would be more likely to follow things that way but I certainly wouldn't. Oscar
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 4:11 PM Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 23:03, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 8:41 AM Wes Turner <wes.turner@gmail.com> wrote:
I confess that I don't even know how to subscribe to all threads of a
discourse.
- [ ] How to subscribe to all threads of discourse
Go to the category you care about, e.g. https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging/14, and if you look in the right side next to "+ New Topic" you will see a bell. you can click that and choose to what level you want to follow new topics (only new threads, notification of all comments, direct notification of all comments, etc.).
What I haven't quite got my head around is: what exactly is the "workflow" with discourse if you are a regular follower/contributor on some forum?
Do people who use it a lot begin by going to the forum website?
I go to the website (I have a folder of bookmarks that I go to every morning, right-click on, and select "Open in Tabs"; one of those tabs is discuss.python.org).
Do they get the email notifications and interact via those?
I personally don't. -Brett
I've been working with discourse in the latter mode and from that perspective it seems inferior. If the expectation is that I have to begin by going to the website then that changes my fundamental approach. Right now I subscribe to many mailing lists and they all route to an IMAP folder. When I feel like browsing them I can go in and skim messages from a wide variety of mailing lists.
The other process seems to be that I begin by choosing to go to the discourse forum website in order to look at messages in a particular forum that I actively choose to look at at that particular time. If that's the case then I would inevitably end up following fewer mailing lists/forums since each one requires a momentary active decision from me to read that particular list. I can imagine that that might reduce the wider participation that is a big part of the purpose of these lists. Maybe other people would be more likely to follow things that way but I certainly wouldn't.
Oscar
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 4:13 PM Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> wrote:
What I haven't quite got my head around is: what exactly is the "workflow" with discourse if you are a regular follower/contributor on some forum?
Do people who use it a lot begin by going to the forum website?
Do they get the email notifications and interact via those?
I think it varies. I get email notifications, and then usually go to the website when I want to reply, unless it's just 1-2 lines. IIRC Donald sticks to the website only. Another mode that discourse is good at is the "digest" approach where it sends you a weekly summary and then you can go to the website if you want to follow up on anything. -n -- Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 at 00:12, Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 23:03, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 8:41 AM Wes Turner <wes.turner@gmail.com> wrote:
I confess that I don't even know how to subscribe to all threads of a discourse.
- [ ] How to subscribe to all threads of discourse
Go to the category you care about, e.g. https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging/14, and if you look in the right side next to "+ New Topic" you will see a bell. you can click that and choose to what level you want to follow new topics (only new threads, notification of all comments, direct notification of all comments, etc.).
What I haven't quite got my head around is: what exactly is the "workflow" with discourse if you are a regular follower/contributor on some forum?
Do people who use it a lot begin by going to the forum website?
This is what I do, personally. For me, the email integration sucks, so I turned it off completely. I set the "Latest" view as my default view, visit the site regularly (I have it as a second tab alongside my gmail tab) and click on any topics showing as having new content. I suppress any categories that I don't want to see (like "Users"). It's not very sophisticated, but my usage of email isn't that sophisticated either :-)
Do they get the email notifications and interact via those?
No, as I say I find the emails pretty bad, so I don't use them at all.
I've been working with discourse in the latter mode and from that perspective it seems inferior. If the expectation is that I have to begin by going to the website then that changes my fundamental approach. Right now I subscribe to many mailing lists and they all route to an IMAP folder. When I feel like browsing them I can go in and skim messages from a wide variety of mailing lists.
I initially found having to use 2 sites (gmail and Discourse) a nuisance. Now, it's a minor inconvenience.
The other process seems to be that I begin by choosing to go to the discourse forum website in order to look at messages in a particular forum that I actively choose to look at at that particular time. If that's the case then I would inevitably end up following fewer mailing lists/forums since each one requires a momentary active decision from me to read that particular list. I can imagine that that might reduce the wider participation that is a big part of the purpose of these lists. Maybe other people would be more likely to follow things that way but I certainly wouldn't.
That's certainly a valid concern. I only really use Discourse for the one "list", the packaging list (I see others, but they are low traffic - as I said, I hide "Users", which may be high-traffic, I don't know). I've expressed my concern that I think Discourse could scale badly if it became high traffic in multiple categories, but at the moment it feels to me like mostly Packaging-related with a bit of other content, and I can cope with that. Paul
How to subscribe to all threads of discourse On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 6:02 PM Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 8:41 AM Wes Turner <wes.turner@gmail.com> wrote:
I confess that I don't even know how to subscribe to all threads of a discourse.
- [ ] How to subscribe to all threads of discourse
Go to the category you care about, e.g. https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging/14, and if you look in the right side next to "+ New Topic" you will see a bell. you can click that and choose to what level you want to follow new topics (only new threads, notification of all comments, direct notification of all comments, etc.).
-Brett
1. Go to the category page: e.g. https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging/14 2. Click the bell at the top right 3. Select "Watching" Does this send a new email whenever someone edits a post that's already been emailed out? (edit) If you change your notification settings for a particular thread by clicking on the bell, that setting is independent of your category-level setting. So, you can "Watching" all on the category and "Mute" a particular thread or vice-versa.
So, I'd miss security or release announcements only posted to discourse and not distutils-sig (or pypa-dev, which IMHO has the more appropriate scope name in that packaging and PyPI are somewhat inseparable)
Is there some convenient way to cryptographically-sign Discourse posts? Maybe with e.g. OpenPGP.js? Or is that unnecessary these days.
Discourse in Python would be great to have.
https://github.com/discourse/discourse (Rails)
https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman
https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius (Django)
Having mailing list discussions archived in one's searchable inbox is underrated, IMHO
Being able to link to specific messages within a thread using permalinks is very useful; though most won't even read it
On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:24 AM Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> wrote:
On 2020-07-30 11:51:24 +0100 (+0100), Paul Moore wrote: [...]
1. Will dropping distutils-sig mean that people who prefer interacting here lose their voice in packaging discussions?
Probably not. I think the fact that most of the list's prior conversation has already moved to Discourse means this is already the case, and so closing this ML is probably more a reflection of the reality that those voices are effectively absent in relevant conversations now.
2. Will having one fewer "recommended place" to start discussions make it easier for new participants to get involved? [...]
Maybe. But as I've seen in many other communities, discussions start organically in a variety of places and platforms, and are rarely constrained by community consensus "recommendations" of venue. -- Jeremy Stanley -- Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/PCUVO...
-- Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/6ULNQ...
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 4:46 PM Wes Turner <wes.turner@gmail.com> wrote:
How to subscribe to all threads of discourse
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 6:02 PM Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 8:41 AM Wes Turner <wes.turner@gmail.com> wrote:
I confess that I don't even know how to subscribe to all threads of a discourse.
- [ ] How to subscribe to all threads of discourse
Go to the category you care about, e.g. https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging/14, and if you look in the right side next to "+ New Topic" you will see a bell. you can click that and choose to what level you want to follow new topics (only new threads, notification of all comments, direct notification of all comments, etc.).
-Brett
1. Go to the category page: e.g. https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging/14 2. Click the bell at the top right 3. Select "Watching"
Does this send a new email whenever someone edits a post that's already been emailed out?
No idea. I use the website exclusively. -Brett
(edit) If you change your notification settings for a particular thread by clicking on the bell, that setting is independent of your category-level setting. So, you can "Watching" all on the category and "Mute" a particular thread or vice-versa.
So, I'd miss security or release announcements only posted to discourse and not distutils-sig (or pypa-dev, which IMHO has the more appropriate scope name in that packaging and PyPI are somewhat inseparable)
Is there some convenient way to cryptographically-sign Discourse posts? Maybe with e.g. OpenPGP.js? Or is that unnecessary these days.
Discourse in Python would be great to have.
https://github.com/discourse/discourse (Rails)
https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman
https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius (Django)
Having mailing list discussions archived in one's searchable inbox is underrated, IMHO
Being able to link to specific messages within a thread using permalinks is very useful; though most won't even read it
On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:24 AM Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> wrote:
On 2020-07-30 11:51:24 +0100 (+0100), Paul Moore wrote: [...]
1. Will dropping distutils-sig mean that people who prefer interacting here lose their voice in packaging discussions?
Probably not. I think the fact that most of the list's prior conversation has already moved to Discourse means this is already the case, and so closing this ML is probably more a reflection of the reality that those voices are effectively absent in relevant conversations now.
2. Will having one fewer "recommended place" to start discussions make it easier for new participants to get involved? [...]
Maybe. But as I've seen in many other communities, discussions start organically in a variety of places and platforms, and are rarely constrained by community consensus "recommendations" of venue. -- Jeremy Stanley -- Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/PCUVO...
-- Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/6ULNQ...
On 2020-07-29 22:51:37 -0400 (-0400), Sumana Harihareswara wrote: [...]
Jeremy, I'm not sure whether you were serious? If your disappointment is only out of nostalgia, then yeah, accepting change makes sense. But if your disappointment is because the Discourse experience is/will be worse for your participation, then it's totally fine to speak up and tell us how. [...]
Robert also pretty accurately described my challenges with Discourse, so I won't bother reiterating his points. I skim a good 1k mailing list messages daily across dozens of other communities and reply with the press of a key; mailing lists make that workflow easy compared conversation scattered between lots of different Web forum sites with mediocre SMTP notification and response, poor context quoting, et cetera. And I'm the sort of luddite who still laments that many of these communities didn't stick with Usenet, but remembering how the spam problem there got so out of control at a time before we had reasonable technologies to deal with it, I don't begrudge anyone the decision to abandon it. Basically I've come to accept that most of the Python packaging discussions lately have occurred entirely in a place where I've been unable to follow them and reply easily, and that seems to be the consensus choice of the Python community so I won't ask others to cater to my outmoded workflows nor to necessarily value the fluid sorts of cross-community participation they used to enable. It means that my voice won't be included often, if ever, and that I'll be less likely to find out tidbits like Setuptools 20.3 in October turning on the new dep solver (and that the many projects I'm involved in ought to test it and follow up with bug reports before they begin to impact our users). Still, there are plenty of other places I can spend my time and effort more effectively, so I'm not particularly bitter about it.
What if we bridged them, instead? Barry Warsaw in https://discuss.python.org/t/disappointed-and-overwhelmed-by-discourse/982/1... suggested:
My ultimate dream would be to add an IMAP and/or NNTP interface directly to [Mailman 3/HyperKitty]. Then I could use my normal mail application to catch up and interact with Mailman lists in a very lightweight way, driven entirely by my own workflow. That plus a Discourse bridge would be a pretty powerful and flexible combination.
Is that something that other folks here who have trouble with Discourse would find fruitful? If so, we can start pushing to make it happen.
The idea there wasn't particularly fleshed-out so it's hard to say. I'm assuming he meant a mechanism for mirroring/proxying conversations between Discourse and MM3; if so then, yes, that might help but there's really no way to know without a working prototype. It also sounds like rather a lot of work and I'm certainly not going to ask anyone else to expend effort just to cater to my personal workflows. Discourse is not to my taste, but de gustibus non est disputandum. -- Jeremy Stanley
On 2020-07-30 12:16:17 +0000 (+0000), Jeremy Stanley wrote: [...]
I'll be less likely to find out tidbits like Setuptools 20.3 in October turning on the new dep solver [...]
Er, clearly I meant pip. ;) Also thanks for sending an update about it to the pypi-announce ML just now! -- Jeremy Stanley
Over the last year, the Packaging category on discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> had 841 active topics, with only 40 topics with 3 or fewer responses. [^5] In the last 100 days, the Packaging category on discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> has had 91 active topics. More than 10 PEPs have been discussed in the Packaging category on discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> in the last 100 days.
Over the last year, distutils-sig had ~109 active threads, with (based on a quick skim) most having 3 or fewer responses/posters. [^4] In the last 100 days, distutils-sig has had 32 active threads (at least 7 of these have the same subject as another thread with Re:/Fwd: added). There has been only 1 PEP-related feedback discussion on distutils-sig in the last year. Most of the other threads are user support requests or announcements. May I ask for you (or someone) to please re-run these stats for the past year? If the traffic decline on distutils-sig has continued then I would
I figure now's a good time to revive this question, so that the new packaging community/project manager https://pyfound.blogspot.com/2021/04/the-psf-is-hiring-python-packaging.html can have a cleaner slate and potentially have fewer things to subscribe to when they come in! On 7/29/20 9:47 PM, Pradyun Gedam wrote: like to re-start the discussion period Pradyun suggested. -- Sumana Harihareswara Changeset Consulting https://changeset.nyc
On 2021-05-07 15:21:36 -0400 (-0400), Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
I figure now's a good time to revive this question, so that the new packaging community/project manager https://pyfound.blogspot.com/2021/04/the-psf-is-hiring-python-packaging.html can have a cleaner slate and potentially have fewer things to subscribe to when they come in! [...]
On a whim I created an account on discuss.python.org and set my preferences to enable mailing list mode. I'm assuming the "packaging" category is the intended modern analog of the distutils-sig mailing list, is that correct? Is there a guide for former mailing list users moving to Discuss, which covers things like limiting the subscription to a particular category or list of categories, or how to construct your messages so that they end up in the correct category when posting via E-mail? More generally, is E-mail-only interaction with Discuss working well for others? -- Jeremy Stanley
participants (11)
-
Bernat Gabor -
Brett Cannon -
Ian Stapleton Cordasco -
Jeremy Stanley -
Nathaniel Smith -
Oscar Benjamin -
Paul Moore -
Pradyun Gedam -
Robert Collins -
Sumana Harihareswara -
Wes Turner