Inada Naoki songofacandy@gmail.com added the comment:

Please note that tutorial is a tutorial. It is document to help new user who are learning Python. Do you believe special attributes like __cause__ and __contexts__ are really worth to teach for tutorial readers?

Generally speaking, I think we should *reduce* some details from tutorial.

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Inada Naoki songofacandy@gmail.com added the comment:

1. Such understanding of a tutorial is debatable. Tutorial is just a material for learning written with some system in mind, which is more interesting to read than dry reference material. A tutorial, generally dpeaking, may be both for beginners and for professionals.

OK, I will send this topic to python-dev first.

2. The question about exception chaining is popular on Stackoverflow in people who came to Python with Java or C# background (see “python inner exception”).
3. Whatever material is given, it should not cause confusion, but now it does.

I searched it but I can not find confusion caused by this tutorial section. Please write a concrete URL caused by current tutorial?

Since this section has been added recently, it is better to fix it rather than remove entirely, aren’t you agree?

I prefer removing mention to __cause__, instead of adding mention to __context__.

No need to remove entire section. We can introduce high level overview of context chaining. Describing the default behavior and "from None" is enough for new users.

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Vladimir Ryabtsev greatvovan@gmail.com added the comment:

I can not find confusion caused by this tutorial section

Inada, have you read the very first message in this ticket? It explains why this wording may cause confusion (and it did in me), and describes the problem part. A link for your convenience: https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/errors.html#exception-chaining

Describing the default behavior and "from None" is enough for new users

Strange that you think that "from None" is more useful for beginners than these special attributes.

Without understanding of __cause__ and __context__, stack traceback message looks like magic. Say you want to handle an exception and retrieve its cause (context) in runtime (this is what exception chaining for) – this section makes no clues about how to do that.

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Vladimir Ryabtsev greatvovan@gmail.com added the comment:

We have automatic chaining, so you don't need to use "from X" unless you want to have some control on the traceback message. Even without knowing of this syntax (and without using "from exc"), a user will get a traceback message similar to what is shown in the example. What is the purpose of the entire section then?

As I see it, the purpose might be providing some details about how exactly chaining works, so a user: a) could make an informed decision whether they need "from X" or not, b) would know how to retrieve the linked exception programmatically.

I generally feel that we don't want to deprive a user from special attributes, in Python they are everywhere, you cannot even construct a class instance without __init__().

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Carol Willing willingc@gmail.com added the comment:

Thanks Vladimir for raising the issue, and Inada-san and Eric for following up on it.

I recommend the following: - merge PR-23162 including its reference to builtin exceptions - after merge of PR-23162, reworking PR-23160 to provide a brief note about __cause__ and __contex__ before the reference link to builtin exceptions

This would provide a clear tutorial example for the majority of users. For the fraction of users, like Vladimir, a sentence as part of the reference link could address a bit more about __cause__ and __context__ without confusing folks.

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Change by Zachary Ware zachary.ware@gmail.com:

Removed file: https://bugs.python.org/file49575/Cellular-Z 20200909 14:25:47 SLOT1.CSV

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Change by miss-islington mariatta.wijaya+miss-islington@gmail.com:

---------- nosy: +miss-islington nosy_count: 7.0 -> 8.0 pull_requests: +22086 pull_request: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/23173

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Inada Naoki songofacandy@gmail.com added the comment:

...

1. Such understanding of a tutorial is debatable. Tutorial is just a material for learning written with some system in mind, which is more interesting to read than dry reference material. A tutorial, generally dpeaking, may be both for beginners and for professionals.

OK, I will send this topic to python-dev first.

For the record, there is a long thread in python-dev about this issue:

* main thread: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/MXMEFFYB6... * another thread: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/WNHVZLEO3...

## High level discussion: focus on new user vs write more and more details.

More detail: * Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer

Focus on new user: * Paul Moore * Brett Cannon * Guido van Rossum * Kyle Stanley * Carol Willing * Serhiy Storchaka

## About this specific case. (Adding __context__ and __suppress_context vs removing __cause__)

Add __context__: (no one)

Remove __cause__: * Kyle Stanley * Éric Araujo (in GH-23160)

Riccardo Polignieri asked that to be very careful about removing something, but he did not vote for adding __context__ and __supress_context__.

--

I merged PR-23162 for keep focus on new users and consistent for now.

But I have not closed this issue yet because documentation WG may revisit the issue. (see https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/IWW2YBLJ... ).

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Carol Willing willingc@gmail.com added the comment:

New changeset 3f9fe23c05280dc5736c07bb0e968cdaf8c503d0 by Vladimir in branch 'master': bpo-42179: Clarify exception chaining (GH-23160) https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/3f9fe23c05280dc5736c07bb0e968cdaf8c...

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