Mailman 3 September 2002 - Edu-sig

Fw: Python sequences by reference - how to make clear
by Arthur Sept. 22, 2002

Sept. 22, 2002

Michal writes - > >Yes, this is fully in accordance with how the Python language should > behave: > > Res += [rec] inserts references to list object rec, > > which are further modified... (he should use copy(rec) instead). > Yes, this issue in various guises bit me for some time after I began using Python (self.-taught, as a fist programming language). It had always seemed to me that if there were a copy operator, or (perferably, to me) that the functionality of the copy module were in the language core as a built_in, that I would have been on clearer notice that there was something fundamental in this area to which I needed to pay attention and become attuned. In looking into it I did find some discussion of the issue on python-list. Interestingly it was also math/Numeric folk who seemed to be rasing the question then and advocating something along the lines of a built_in operator for copying. I however think that the issue is quite real for anyone coming to Python without the benefit of either a programming background or a formal structure within which they are being taught the language. I have felt strongly that others have been too quick to advocate changes to the language to address "special needs" cases. And that the special needs cases of the novice have been *much* over-emphasized in discussions, in general. The "specialist" (as in most special) need of the the novice is to get themselves in a mindset of knowing that they are using a complicated tool, that they should expect the unexpected, and that there is a burden on them to get in step to the tool, the tool - in the case of Python (people who are not novices will assure them) , having done more than its share in meeting them at least half way. And I have confirmed to myself in the work I have been doing recently, which is specifcally addressed to the non-programmer, that at least some of those "special needs" can be quite adequately addressed by the right interface design, using Python's out of the box capabilities. That being said, and admitting to having little understanding of the full implications of a suggestion to make the copy function as built_in, I do believe, all things else being equal (which I suspect they are not), it would be quite helpful little amendment to the status quo. I use the word "little" - perhaps inappropriately, is the problem. Art OOPs. Sent this to python-list by mistake. Not sure what will be made of my starting a conversation in the middle. One advantage of having established a bad reputation, is that I have little reputation to protect. Have added a few thoughts, above, so the posts don't even match. Sloppy, as often I am. Oh well.

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BBC NEWS Technology Learn for free online
by Jason Cunliffe Sept. 22, 2002

Sept. 22, 2002

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/2270648.stm

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Top 5 All Time Novice Obstacles => #3 Where am I ?
by Arthur Sept. 22, 2002

Sept. 22, 2002

Guido writes - >It has a GUI for this feature. Assuming you have Python 2.1.x or >2.2.x on Windows, go to the Start -> Programs -> Python x.x menu, and >select "Module docs". Now type your search string in the text box and >hit return. Double-click any of the resulting lines, and stand by for >a webbrowser window to pop up. For a refreshing change of pace I would like to agree with Guidio. It seems to me that Jason you come to the table with too many expectations (maybe from your Rebol experience) of how a help system "should" work, rather than spending the energy focusing on learning how the Python help system does work.. And I would agree with Guido, once that (minor) effort is made, all your expectations and more, from that point on, look like they will be met. And I would generalize that further. Have more confidence in Python. But fewer expectations coming in. Art

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Re: Module docs module (Tk utility)
by Kirby Urner Sept. 22, 2002

Sept. 22, 2002

At 09:16 AM 9/22/2002 -0400, you wrote: >[Rebol help example omitted] > >Python's help is so much more modern than Rebol. :-) > >It has a GUI for this feature. Assuming you have Python 2.1.x or >2.2.x on Windows, go to the Start -> Programs -> Python x.x menu, and >select "Module docs". Now type your search string in the text box and >hit return. Double-click any of the resulting lines, and stand by for >a webbrowser window to pop up. Took awhile to get this working -- old pydoc.pyw in same directory was messing it up, maybe left over from a previous install. pydocgui.pyw needs to load the "real" pydoc.py, not this imposter (which in turn loaded the real one, but too late -- no gui() attribute in the first one). Once I got it working, I searched on dir() and got nothing. Same with listdir, listdir(), os.listdir() etc. Opening the browser from this Tk utility (button), and getting the pink, white and blue view of my own hard drive was a hoot. Getting the "browser's eye view" of my very own modules was *really* fun. I'd been entirely oblivious of this feature up until now. Thanks Guido. Kirby

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CNN.com - Kids use PlayStation for high-tech homework - Sep. 21, 2002
by Jason Cunliffe Sept. 21, 2002

Sept. 21, 2002

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/fun.games/09/21/playstationhomework/index.html

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lifaros_003
by Jason Cunliffe Sept. 21, 2002

Sept. 21, 2002

http://www.actionscript.cl/

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BIT-101 ActionScript Experiments and Tutorials
by Jason Cunliffe Sept. 21, 2002

Sept. 21, 2002

http://www.bit-101.com/

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levitated is back
by Jason Cunliffe Sept. 21, 2002

Sept. 21, 2002

http://www.levitated.net/ ./Jason

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Re: [Edu-sig] Fw: Python sequences by reference - how to make
by Jason Cunliffe Sept. 21, 2002

Sept. 21, 2002

What I'd like help with is understanding the implications of loading libraries vs. built_ins vs. smarter IDLE prompts. For developers and students worknig at the Python shell, it is tedious and often often frustrating to have to load functionality repeatedly from libraries, ones which we feel should already be available. >From a script pov perspective, the assumption is rely 'assume nothing' so scripts should all start with a healthy block of import statements. Python does this well. 'Import' behaves transparently when a module is already loaded. Nice feature and thank you Python! But also introduces a little Novice gotcha we ALL learn on Day One Lesson#1: reload() I assume reload() is used 99% of the time at the shell and not in scripts.[?] If so, then that confirms slightly my point there are two use contexts we need to be discussing: A. people working interactively B. script and system defaults My recent Top 5' rants have been trying to focus more on use context A. [people] and how Python meets Novice users. But we are all novices about something, with expectations about Python behaves. So what strategy can be applied when Python boots and in the IDLE shell to handle these expectation better: - loading modules - visible feedback and prompts about them - ?? hope I am making sense ./Jason

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Python sequences by reference - how to make clear
by Arthur Sept. 21, 2002

Sept. 21, 2002

Kirby writes - >I understand your side of it though: having them be there would >encourage earlier, deeper investigation of the whole >topic, and remind the user that a=b does *not* >necessarily get that job done. Actually my point is slightly, but importantly, different than that. The investigation will help the user understand what a=b means. By helping them undertand what a=b doesn't mean. One can argue whether facility with copy is or is not a core concept. I don't think one can argue the same as to a=b. >Guido's school of thought says 'these are power tools >that need to be on a higher shelf, so the casual tinkerer >won't abuse them if you're not ready to tackle importing, >you're not ready to start copying, let alone >deepcopying.' Guido's express it exactly as "copy() nor deepcopy() is a built-in, because it is a potentially expensive operation, and I feel that its presence as a built-in would cause beginning and intermediate programmers to overuse it." Premature optimization, perhaps? Art

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