Mailman 3 January 2003 - Edu-sig

Computer Programing for Everybody
by Brad 20 Jan '03

20 Jan '03

Hi All! I was reading on-line about 'Computer Programming for Everybody'. The home page says that the project has stalled. I read through the proposal and one of the goals is similar to a project that i am involved with (particularly the part about creating a curriculum for non-CS majors). Does anyone know about work at CMU or the work being done at the University of Chicago? For those how don't know here's the link to the home page http://www.python.org/cp4e/ Thanks, -b

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sorry
by Arthur 20 Jan '03

20 Jan '03

My last post here was meant for python-list, and misdirected here. Apologies. Art

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re: PyGeo distribution progress
by Arthur 20 Jan '03

20 Jan '03

>Whatever it takes... God I really hope this does get re-solved now. So that VP >plays well with IDLE, and distutils, and PyGeo, or whatever else edusigists >might cook up. Agreed. But there is essentially, within broad guidelines, what is recognized as a right way to distribute a Python 3rd party package. And what that standard is has evolved and become clearer and more broadly accepted over the past few years. I am purely a volunteer developer, working on my own. The VPython maintainers, have, or could have with a little effort, true resources. If there was the will to bring VPython into reasonable compliance - with distutils, for example - it could happen easily enough. I am somewhat paralyzed, because, for me it is a substantial effort - and it seems clear that VPython "official" will have to get there, and will eventually get there. When?. In the normal course, one would assume, if there not otherwise indications of unreasonableness. The simple fix of the overwrite of index.html - literarily involving 4 keystrokes - rejected based on reasoning that was convoluted in the extreme. Oh well. We'll see what we see. ART

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re: PyGeo distribution progress
by Arthur 20 Jan '03

20 Jan '03

Sorry for my ususal bad habit of multiple posts. But to complete the thought. >But the bad news is VPython is now out of sync, I would be the first to say that VPython is of more general usefulness for educational purposes than is PyGeo, and in that sense is more "important" than PyGeo. One can argue either way about PyGeo. I don't think it can be argued that VPython is *not* an important contribution to the Python and education effort. And one of the true beauties of VPython is its small footprint under a standard Python installation. This will be even more true when the IDLE situation is resolved. And is particularly true if someone - as many, many people do - have other reasons to have Numeric installed. But the current VPython distribution gives exactly the opposite impression. It is not exaggerated, IMO, to call it at least a little viral. But how can this help but be "politcal". David Scherer is alive and well. He wrote VPython. What are his thoughts? Not really fair to ask. So I guess unless someone stops me, I proceed on my own path. Art

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by CBC Systems 19 Jan '03

19 Jan '03

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re: PyGeo distribution progress.
by Arthur 19 Jan '03

19 Jan '03

>I'm proceedding to work on my own VPython distro - using distutils, and >handling it "as if" there were might be other uses for Python other than to >script Mr. Sherwood's students pictures. Actually, the Windows compiled version is a no-brainer. My problem is a distro suitable for other platforms, as VPython does need to be compiled. PyGeo is pure Python, so the issue did not arise doing PyGeo stand-alone. I consider Linux a probably more legitimate platform in an educational environment than Windows. So I would not be interested a distro that was not Linux friendly. And though I truly was an early Linux adapter/explorer (as a user - only blew up one video card trying to get XFree up when you still had to set video card and monitor info by hand) I've been away from it for a good while. Were time not an issue - I'd have a Linux box going, testing everything related to PyGeo on it. Well this issue might push me there. Probably for the best. Art

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re:PyGeo distribution progress.
by Arthur 19 Jan '03

19 Jan '03

>So if I understand correctly, Art, you've switched to distutils and that's the >GOOD news. Well done And thanks :-) Just cockily answered a disutils question of someone of python-list, as a matter of fact. And even might have given him the right answer. >But the bad news is VPython is now out of sync, Always has been, to an extreme degree. > and needs its installation to be updated for everyone's sanity. What's the status on that happening? I pointed out to Sherwood that the overwrite of Python index.html file was totally and easily avoidable. Since he is distributing his own IDLE, all he had to do is have that IDLE point to, let's say, a v_index.html. That way I (and the rest of the universe) get the Help screen we want and expect when we go to help when using the regular IDLE interactively. And his students get the help screen *he* wants them to get when they go to help from the VPython IDLE. It couldn't be simpler and more straight forward. He refused. I could say a lot more. Folks are uncomforatble with me speaking my mind to the extent I fell comfortable doing. I always think doing so is a good thing. Maybe I'm wrong. So I'll pass on saying more on the subject. >Can anyone fix VPython? Are the installation problems/violations now recognized by its authors? I'm proceedding to work on my own VPython distro - using distutils, and handling it "as if" there were might be other uses for Python other than to script Mr. Sherwood's students pictures. Art

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PyGeo distribution progress.
by Arthur 19 Jan '03

19 Jan '03

Let me start my saying that I know Guido is giving the following issue keen attention, and my understanding is that the issue will go away in 2.3. Will be a tremendous help to PyGeo. But its worth noting, that in the real world, as to PyGeo, the IDLE situation has *considerably* complicated life . Particularly since PyGeo *needs* the forked version, rather than the version distributed with Python2.2. That is if a user chooses to use IDLE. And that would be the most natural and sensible choice for a true newbie. A look into the IDLE fork mailing list about a week ago seemed to indicate that the forked version is now encountering some problems running VPython scripts, and will therefore the same would be true as to PyGeo. I am sure this is being attended to. I guess I will be more proactive and download the current IDLE fork version (or first see if it is part of 2.3a) and do some testing of PyGeo scripts with it. Results to be reported on the IDLE fork list, not here. Art

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PyGeo distribution progress.
by Arthur 19 Jan '03

19 Jan '03

I'm going to take the shot that some might consider this on topic to edu-sig. Anyone not interested in the real life story of new (and happy) distutils user, and my PyGeo distribution configuration progress, have no need to read further. Jason writes - >YES please switch to distutils >For the longterm health of PyGeo >It's one of the most important changes to Python to make it friendly for both >newbies and pros. And that's no mean feat.. >Everyone will thankyou. Guido writes - >No, distutils is *not* overkill. Please consider using distutils; it >will make others' lives so much easier! If you get stuck, I'll try to >help. Where this has led - Considerable rethinking not only of the form of distribution of PyGeo, but its organization, etc. Where I am at. For ceating any PyGeo script: from pygeo import * does it all. A *considerable* improvement from where things were a week ago. Thanks Kirby for the help. As to disutils: got it down, and have a distro of standalone PyGeo that puts everything nicely where it belongs by: "python setup.py install" The nice thing about distutils is that the setup.py script that is used to "package" the distro is the exact script that is used by the enduser to install. But there's more. >From this setup script I can create a self-installing Windows executable. Who knew? Distutils implicitly recognizing that the Windows and Linux communities represent, in many ways, have different users and therefore different needs. And it accomodates both well, easing the developers life. Good stuff. Thanks again, Guido, for getting me started down this road. But this is still Art speaking, so of course there is a problem. And with some "political" content. The VPython distribution on which PyGeo depends chooses to be off in its own world. In my view, to an extreme. Among the bizarre things it does is overwrite the *Python's* root documentation file, "index.html". Which means, among other strange effects, that even after you might uninstall VPython, you will forever get VPython's root help file, rather than Python's. *Which no longer exists*. Obviosuly absurd, IMO. And ill-mannered. IMO. And believe me I've raised this with Mr. Sherwood - to no avail. But even solving that, there are other issues. Not only does VPython install in non-standard places, it includes Numeric, but installs Numeric differently than Numeric installs itself on a standalone basis. So my plan is to go the step further. Probaly just ask my users to install the "official" Numeric. There is a Windows self installing executable. And I just tested the from source shebang under Windows, the setup.py install, that calls my VC++ and compiles and then installs in site-packages, and it worked quickly and flawlessly, and I ended up with something I would consider "standard" placement of files under the Python root. And then include my own VPython installation with PyGeo. Don't know a lot about these licensing things, but if VPython can offer a Numeric distribution that "mangles" its distribution, I can only assume that I am within my rights to do something similar as to VPython. The best choice, as far as I am confirmed, is to have VPython comply to with some reasonable standards. Apparently not in the cards. ALL FWIW, I guess. Art

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Pferdemarkt.ws informiert! Newsletter 01/2003
by webmaster＠pferdemarkt.ws 15 Jan '03

15 Jan '03

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