Mailman 3 December 2003 - Edu-sig

Re: Python Programming: An Introduction to ComputerScience
by Arthur Dec. 14, 2003

Dec. 14, 2003

>This would be a different design pattern from the one I've described. >In the implementation I'm describing, the geometric object will never know >anything about Povray or VRML or Vpython. It doesn't output itself, but >gets passed to a "writer" which knows how to interrogate it for the >necessary information That's sort of how the povexport.py that is available for Vpython works (though I use my own 'enhanced' version of the 'official' povexport.py, same principle, handles some neglected and newer Vpython primitives, I release it to the Vpython folks, might have needed a tweak here or there for their purposes, nothing happens, 2 years later, another story) Can you envision a way to make the pattern you are describing real time and interactive? Maybe so, and maybe I can apply it. Did he say interactive? That's right, mouse clicks - am I a hypocrite or what. Or else middle ground, middle ground. Art

2 1

re: Education Arcade
by Arthur Dec. 14, 2003

Dec. 14, 2003

>Well, this is the kind of thing I'm trying to get a feel for -- scientific >evidence is not of interest at the moment. I just want to get where you're >coming from. Can't respond. Gotta go. Prairie Home Companion is coming live out of New York tonight and I have tickets. Listen to it. I'll wave. Art

1 0

re: Python Programming: An Introduction to Computer Science
by Arthur Dec. 14, 2003

Dec. 14, 2003

Tony writes- >I also think that if Python became known as the "beginner's language", >then that would be a *much* bigger success than if it became the >language of choice for CS1. Far more people program than take CS1 >courses. I doubt whether the folks using it in connection with the Hubble project think of themselves as beginners in any sense. It is a tool of choice, very much so. With the world of possibilities open to them. It is important, to me, that it - and other projects like it (there are many) - be on Python's resume as such. And why the "beginners language" thing is a misnomer in some important ways. Though not untrue in itself. Art

1 0

Re: Python Programming: An Introduction to ComputerScience
by Arthur Dec. 14, 2003

Dec. 14, 2003

>In sum, when writing geometric objects to output media, there's a way to go >wherein anything specific to the medium is saved to the "writer" object, >while anything purely geometric, and common to all media, is saved in the >geometric object. The pure geometry is kept separate from the messy >details of I/O. If I am following you: In PyGeo the geometric "reality" is separated from the drawing, for a number of reasons. My Vpython objects, which draw, are related to my geometric objects which "are", but they are not those objects themselves. Partly because of the corner cases. If, say, my point defined as the intersection of 2 lines moves off to infinity, I have a drawing problem. I cheat and put it, well, very far away - but not so far away as would create havoc in the rendering. The point itself knows where it really is - at infinity. 'Til now, I have been using Vpython to output to Povray. But am moving toward each geometric object having its own method to output itself to Povray format. And if VPython goes away, I can always plug in a different rendering system without changing anything too near the core of what PyGeo is. Think it is sensible, and standard, design practice for this kind of thing. Art

2 1

re: Education Arcade
by Arthur Dec. 14, 2003

Dec. 14, 2003

>So far, I'm no further educated as to your specific objections. When you >come up with something (that's specifically yours), let me know. I don't >really want to read long essays. Just give the gist. What is the point of espousing further the gist of my Zen on this, unsupported by scientific evidence? Not even I have stomach to hear more of that from me. What is clear is that whoever gets more funding will garner more "scientific" evidence to supports their Zen. My side doesn't have a prayer in hell in keeping up. And I ask you to keep that in mind as the scientific evidence begins to emerge. I am voicing the anti-establishment view. Or what is likely to evolve as such. So therefore I expect your support ;) Art

1 0

re: Education Arcade
by Arthur Dec. 14, 2003

Dec. 14, 2003

>For now, my view is: more power to MIT's Education Arcade initiative. The Waldorf School movement, with which I have no affiliation or particular interest, has an aggressive perspective on this kind of thing. http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/waldorf/links2.htm See the links under: MASS MEDIA AND COMPUTERS, WITH SPECIAL REFERENCE TO CHILDHOOD AND EDUCATION Kirby - for what its worth - I believe your friend at Design Science Toys does have some affiliation. Which is consistent with the kind of hands on toys he markets. Toys can be educational, sure. Games can be educational, sure. Why isn't it fairly well common sense that toys and games will be less meaningful and therefore effective when we turn them from concrete to virtual. What does virtuality bring to the table? I am by no means endorsing all the views expressed in some of the above links. I am aware of the Waldorf Movement only because affiliated folks have done some interesting, and, in my view (I am not an authority), unimpeachable work in connection with projective geometry. So they happen to be on my radar, and their particular form of "resistance" is something I can quickly put my hands on. And I am not unwilling to find allies where I can, on this issue. The issues here are by all reasonable standards beyond scientific measurement, though the folks committed to this approach will, no doubt, claim scientific justification. And have considerable success, I'm afraid. What we are left with, really, is another front of cultural wars. There is a computer scientist down in Brazil vocal on these issues, whose stuff I appreciated - but I can't re-find the link right now. I'll bother the list with it when I do. Art

2 1

re: Education Arcade
by Arthur Dec. 13, 2003

Dec. 13, 2003

>EDUCATION ARCADE SEEKS TO MERGE LEARNING, GAMING >The Massachusetts Institute of Technology has launched the Education >Arcade initiative, aimed at exploiting the educational benefits of >videogames. Funded by.... I'll be the Catholic church here, thank you. An avowed enemy of this kind of progress. Avowed. Art

2 1

Education Arcade
by John Miller Dec. 13, 2003

Dec. 13, 2003

On Thursday, December 11, 2003, at 12:03 PM, Arthur <ajsiegel(a)optonline.net> wrote: > One thing I got from a quick look at the presentation was quite > positive. > Clearly distinguishing between entertainment and educational software. > Probably the biggest reason I react negatively to the general subject > of > software for kids is that there seems to be a reluctance to make clear > distinctions here. Particularly in the case of non-commercial > software. > Somehow if its directed at kids, and comes out of the opensource > community, > its educational - in some overly vague way. Obviously there is > nothing > wrong with opensource efforts to entertain kids. But there seems to be > a > habit of misclassification, or certainly vagueness, here. The following came from NewsScan Daily, 11 December 2003. (I happened to read it immediately after reading Arthur's message above.) Instead of thinking of this as an unfortunate blurring of boundaries, these researchers appear to be identifying this as a means of engaging students' attention. (If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!) Perhaps we can think of it as simply a new or different genre. I think the real value of this sort of effort (below) lies in the direction of *students* developing such software for their peers (perhaps their younger peers). Hence the value of PyGame; hence the value of Soya 3D (and others like it): --------------------- EDUCATION ARCADE SEEKS TO MERGE LEARNING, GAMING The Massachusetts Institute of Technology has launched the Education Arcade initiative, aimed at exploiting the educational benefits of videogames. The project plans to harness the talents of scholars, international game designers, publishers, educators and policy makers to develop videogames that would be fully incorporated into existing curricula. "We want to lead the change in the way the world learns through computer and video games," says MIT professor Henry Jenkins. "Our mission is to demonstrate the social, cultural and educational potential of games by initiating game development projects. We will also be informing public conversations about the broader and sometimes unexpected uses of this emerging art form in education." (Herald Sun 10 Dec 2003) http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/ 0,5478,8101066%255E11869,00.html ---------------------- John Miller

1 0

re: Numarray, Python and the Universe
by Arthur Dec. 13, 2003

Dec. 13, 2003

Terry - >I'm confused by what you meant there. Are you saying you're >not aware of python as a scientific programming language? It's >pretty popular, actually. Really nothing more than that this and other projects for which numeric/numarray is an important component are, to me, exciting beyond most other real world applications of Python of which I am aware. The relevance to edu-sig, is that I think Python can by all rights consider itself to be a important educational tool in connection with scientific related curricula, beyond computer science itself. And that, of its own accord, things are likely to be moving in this direction. And that more general awareness of the projects you list would be a good thing. For example, Michael McLay - in trying to put together a major funding proposal related to Python and education - admits to being largely unaware of this entire aspect of Python in the real world. Whereas, to me, it is the lead article. Art

1 0

Numarray, Python and the Universe
by Arthur Dec. 13, 2003

Dec. 13, 2003

The release of numarray-0.8 was announced today. Numarray is being developed as a replacement to/improvement on Numeric. The announcement brought me to its website: http://www.stsci.edu/resources/software_hardware/numarray >..., numarray is sufficiently developed to be useful for a number of >applications, and is being used in the Hubble Space Telescope data >processing pipeline (for the Advanced Camera for Surveys) and to develop >the Cosmic Origins Spectrograph pipeline. PyFITS is also based on it. Most >of STScI's future astronomical data processing applications will be built >using its capabilities. Why does this kind of thing knock my socks off? Even beyond the fact that it is not a web page templating mechanism. Art

2 1