Mailman 3 July 2003 - Edu-sig

Re: [Edu-sig] re: A small essay in my own defense
by Kirby Urner July 11, 2003

July 11, 2003

At 01:09 PM 7/9/2003 -0400, you wrote: >As sometimes happens, I can not follow why you are not following what >I think is a clear argument. I didn't know what you meant about the Scheme people showing restraint nor what you meant by "hating to 'go back to Russia'". >You can define "programming" anyway you want,I guess. And you can certainly >reasonably argue that something *about* programming sensibly belongs in a >curriculum. And 'about' isn't good enough -- should involve some hands-on experience. >Just be sensitive to the fact that others may be using that exact same >word to mean something quite else: a rigorous approach to a rigorous >discipline. Applied mathematics of an advanced nature. Naked, as such. Not mutually exclusive. My analogy was with slapping clay around in art class -- but with examples of great masterworks available. It's not like I'm saying we should forget about the hallmarks of quality work. But there's no point just being intimidating. The first step is to make it fun and accessible. Then we can start showing examples of how *not* to code (but give examples of the right way first). >We both teach "programming". But they just make it seem so hard. We >give easy A's over here. Who are "they"? The Scheme people? >That's one way to fill up a class. > >Art > > >Please understand I am not being critical of anything you are saying, >other than to suggest - lets talk about apples when we are talking >apples, and oranges when meaning oranges. I guess the differences needn't hinge on how we define programming. Let's talk instead about what the *goal* of writing a program might be, in specific cases. If it's to write something robust and maintainable, and to send it out into the world, that's one thing. If it's to quickly throw something together for private use, in order to gain understanding of a concept (perhaps not specific to programming), that's something else. Both are valid goals, and I can easily think of many others, just as I'm sure you can. >And bend, especially, over backward to do so, when it is to some >tactical advantage to do otherwise. > >I think the Open Source ethic holds us to high standards - or should - >in respect to these kinds of things. > >Art Yes, Open Source by its nature promotes better coding, because you know that others will be studying your source, not just the outward runtime interface (which might look pretty, but be junk underneath -- a fact not easily hidden if the source is in plain view). Open source ethics make it harder to BS. As someone was pointing out this evening at OSCON, it's a different kind of job interview when you can say "just look at my source code, if you want to know what I'm capable of". And the interviewer can ask if you have check-in privileges on CVS (if you claim to be deeply involved in some group coding effort). Kirby

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Lees book
by Conrad Koziol July 11, 2003

July 11, 2003

Hey thanks for the advice I'm currently going through his book. Seems like a fun way to learn. Also any advice on learning about the logic of python such as using passing a list through len to get the indexs. I understand basic logic, but since this is my first real language, I'm running into some problems

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Re: Lees book
by Lee Harr July 11, 2003

July 11, 2003

>Hey thanks for the advice I'm currently going through his book. Seems >like a fun way to learn. Also any advice on learning about the logic of >python such as using passing a list through len to get the indexs. I >understand basic logic, but since this is my first real language, I'm >running into some problems If you start getting in to it, and you enjoy it, you will definitely want to look at more documentation (like the official python docs at http://python.org/doc/) You will probably also want to join a more code-focused list like (usenet) comp.lang.python or tutor(a)python.org _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Re: Edu-sig digest, Vol 1 #722 - 7 msgs
by Conrad Koziol July 10, 2003

July 10, 2003

> > Took a quick look. > Introduction > Billy the Kid is a Python Extension Module providing you with all kinds of > more or less usefull stuff at the raw packet level. It allows you to create > raw UDP/TCP/ICMP packets and it also includes a nice interface to libpcap. > </quote> > > The author is 18 years old. > I apoligize Art but I seem to have pointed you in the wrong direction. That was the website provided in the package. I didn't bother to check it out since I though it was the link to download the package again. http://home.student.utwente.nl/g.v.berg/misc/tpf-0.2.tar.gz This is were it can be downloaded and there is a link to it off the Vaults of Parnassus Thanks

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Student teaching and tutorials
by Conrad Koziol July 10, 2003

July 10, 2003

Hello everyone,Im going into highschool next year and I've been following this thread for some time now. The biggest problem I have faced with learning python is the lack of showing the point of the lesson in a way you could use it in programming. For example, THE QUICK PYTHON BOOK, an excellent source teaches about lists, tuples, and dictionaries among other things, yet if fails to show them used in other ways than stand alone examples such as: a = [ 1, 2, "first"] print a They don't seem to develop it much further. I quickly understand lists and stuff and then they jump into class and control flow which is more complicated. What the greatest teaching tool ever for me would a python tutorial on how to build a message board/forum. This would include everything from lists to classes to htmlgen. It would also show me a practical use for everything, by using something I am highly interested in. Web development and game development are the two things held in regard by students. I would also love an easier tutorial for total beginners branching off pygame. The trick to teaching anything is to go over the same things over and over, but each way in a slightly different manner or point of view while holding the readers interest. As a last note, I find many tutorials helpful, but something they all lack is a test or review at the end. This would help me greatly, because that is how i am used to learning things in school. Thanks, Conrad

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Re: Edu-sig digest, Vol 1 #721 - 8 msgs
by Arthur July 10, 2003

July 10, 2003

Jason writes - >But Art's comment along the lines of 'you don't need tutorials, just >experience and other people's source' - simply does not acknowledge the >overwhelming aspects at some stages in one's development. Python has an >abundance of riches. But sometimes gently learning a core technique or how >to a do a small simple task is obscured. Maybe I was being a little too poetic myself. The specific advice I gave and give was to work within the structure that Lee Harr's book provides, and to use it in exactly the way that Lee recommends. My point about the tutorial already being there was - a message board is a complex piece of software. And if one waits until someone should write the perfect tutorial for writing message board software, one will probably just be waiting. If you break down the task, or knowledgebase - and attack it bit by bit, by finding the right tutorial or source to explore for each bit, one can start to make progress. And keep moving forward. Attempting to swallow a piece of message board software whole - I think we are agreeing - is too big of a meal. And I am being serious in thinking about whether the skills involved in learning how to attack a problem like this - let's assume the message board tutorial, as a stand-alone piece of work does not exist - is something that can be tutorialized. Why do you find things on the web that I don't? I am sure we are using the same tools. You seem to have a more intuitive sense of how to search. Is that something you could teach? Probably, to some degree. I think I am a fairly skilled brain picker. Some learned skill, and some intuitive sense of how to break down a problem into its constituent parts, and go at them one at a time, finding resources that I have the prerequisites to understand, or taking a step back and at least understanding what prerequisite I am missing, and making the turn to fill that prerequisite. Is it something I can try to communicate as a tutorial? Not sure. Art

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re: Student teaching and tutorials
by Arthur July 10, 2003

July 10, 2003

>I have searched for a while and the only one I could find >is TPF http://gorny.cjb.net The problem is its note even >commented Took a quick look. Introduction Billy the Kid is a Python Extension Module providing you with all kinds of more or less usefull stuff at the raw packet level. It allows you to create raw UDP/TCP/ICMP packets and it also includes a nice interface to libpcap. </quote> The author is 18 years old. Conrad, If you understand what this (snotty kid ;) ) just said - you are way ahead of me. So I am certainly not the right guy to be advising you on networking stuff. But I do understand that this is an extension module for Python, written in C. Not in Python. So please don't be intimidated by what you are seeing. C is not for me. But Lee's working demo of pygame in multi-player mode using Twisted - part of pygear - is where I intend to start - when I get around to tackling networking with Python. (And Lee thinks he's writing for kids). So the advise I gave you, is the advise I am giving myself. Lee seems to be looking for feedback. Might be more meaningful from you, then from someone like me. Have you taken a look? Does it seem to suit your needs, as a way to get started in writing working code. I sometimes think about learning how the pieces move, but then learning how to *play chess*. You want to start playing some chess, so to speak. I think Lee's book understands that. If indeed you are already beyond what Lee is teaching you might dig into the Twisted demos directly, perhaps. http://twistedmatrix.com/ Twisted looks *extremely* well documented Art

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Re: Edu-sig digest, Vol 1 #721 - 8 msgs
by Conrad Koziol July 10, 2003

July 10, 2003

>What the greatest teaching tool ever for me would a >python tutorial on how to build a message board/forum. I strongly suspect that such a tutorials already exists. In the form of working programs, which you can take apart, and analyze, and break, and then fix, and change, and break again, and fix again. I have searched for a while and the only one I could find is TPF http://gorny.cjb.net The problem is its note even commented

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re: A small essay in my own defense
by Arthur July 9, 2003

July 9, 2003

Kirby writes - >Not sure I follow. snip >So from a "how things work" point of view (a "get to know your >world"point of view) it's necessary to have some idea of what >code does and how it comes into existence. As sometimes happens, I can not follow why you are not following what I think is a clear argument. You can define "programming" anyway you want,I guess. And you can certainly reasonably argue that something *about* programming sensibly belongs in a curriculum. Just be sensitive to the fact that others may be using that exact same word to mean something quite else: a rigorous approach to a rigorous discipline. Applied mathematics of an advanced nature. Naked, as such. We both teach "programming". But they just make it seem so hard. We give easy A's over here. That's one way to fill up a class. Art Please understand I am not being critical of anything you are saying, other than to suggest - lets talk about apples when we are talking apples, and oranges when meaning oranges. And bend, especially, over backward to do so, when it is to some tactical advantage to do otherwise. I think the Open Source ethic holds us to high standards - or should - in respect to these kinds of things. Art

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re: A small essay in my own defense
by Arthur July 9, 2003

July 9, 2003

Kirby writes - >CP4E is clever enough as a *direction*. I like to say that knowing >something about programming is like knowing something about internal >combustion engines. Yet we're not all mechanics. It's just helpful >to know "how things work". To me, the question than becomes one of semantics. How far down the road toward a redefinition of the word "programming" are we allowing ourselves to go. BIG ISSUE, in my book. BIG, BIG ISSUE. Did I metion I think the issue is significant? Art

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