Mailman 3 July 2003 - Edu-sig

Re: PEPTALK: path sanity and newbie mental health
by Christian Mascher July 7, 2003

July 7, 2003

Jason Cunliffe wrote: > PROBLEM #1 > Where to install things on Python and how to access them? > It seems recommended default is to install modules and packages into > Lib/site-packages/some-sub-folder. > > PROBLEM#2 > But what about my personal work? > I can find precious little advice on that.. I can recall how important it was for me to find that very information. I think I learnt it first on Python-Tutor list. And the books don't write much about this, true. When I give my pupils a CD with the Python-installer on it, I also include instructions on setting up the PYTHONPATH after the install: 1. create directory "C:\mypython" to put your (and my) files in 2. edit C:\autoexec.bat with extra line "SET PYTHONPATH C:\mypython" 3. restart computer I'm not telling them anything about sys.path at this stage. So they just have to follow the extra steps, to get it working. They will notice something is wrong, when a supplied module can't be imported. > b) edit autoexec.bat and create a PYTHONPATH entry and then add 'jabber' to > that. > Yikes this seems also too far from python. It uses a syntax I am not certain > about. I look in books and google around, but honestly it's hard to find > just some simple example I can copy. The solution is not too bad if you've grown up with autoexec.bat settings (having started with DOS once, like me). For most computer users today, including my 16 year old pupils, this is something they have never done, never imagined one could do. I agree, batteries-included Python could have a friendlier approach, at least give detailed online help and instructions. > One of the first things all beginners are taught do is save a > "helloworld.py" file. > It is good practice for all software to keep user files separate from system > or application files. Better for sysadmin, maintenance and collaborative > workflow. But, in Python at present the first problem is that creating a > personal folder for scripts outside of the application installation which is > visible to import statements [... and is not in sys.path] I agree, this is one of those annoyances, which could stop people with not enough time on their hands to seriously give Python a try. What I would really appreciate is an optional last stage in the installer, in which you can customize your site, i.e. create your private directory to add to PYTHONPATH, get to know where your sitecustomize file is and what is in it, etc. Then I would just have to tell my pupils 1. check the sitecustomize-option 2. create mypython-directory for personal and local files (which would be added to default sys.path automatically) I still would have to tell them something more than just: "run the installer". But this is a place you wouldn't overlook if you were looking for some solution to your problem (which I think many Newbies encounter). > > sys.path.save() > sys.path.load() > > These would both default to use a clear single file called "PYTHONPATH.py" > created at installation. I think this is no bad idea. Write a PEP. Cheers, Christian

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Re: Least used builtins?
by Arthur July 7, 2003

July 7, 2003

I wrote - >> Kirby writes - > >The strikes me as unimaginative, plodding. > > pitooey., To elaborate. I agree that going down the list of built-ins as a teaching technique is unnecessary. My point is much different than that. As always, I am more than willing to have my point rejected - but prefer it happen *after* it is understood. I go on when I feel that it is only a trivialized version of my point that is being put on the dung heap. Deja-vu, again. Art

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RE: [Edu-sig] Re: Least used builtins?
by urnerk＠qwest.net July 7, 2003

July 7, 2003

>Have argued quite the contrary, in fact. And did so quite against the >grain. > >Where were you then? ;) Well, I didn't think the new division model needed to have anything to do with newbies either. Just so happens that sometimes these issues overlap. But there are layers to Python. IDLE and other such may well have features that make the language more accessible. Prompts, tips, etc. etc. There's a difference between the formal language, and the shell/editor combo. Question: is there a way to get IDLE or PyCrust or another shell to be both BIG FONT *and* BOLD? Thinking of projecting. I can make IDLE shell fonts as big as I like, but don't know how to bold 'em. > Let's not imagine we all have teachers. I understand, and said, that the > point I am making is only of real significance for the folks undertaking > self-teaching of Python. Which is probably, at this point, about 98% of > the people who know it. Most get at least a little guidance from books and the community, on-line tutorials and such. At least that was my own experience (I've certainly never had a formal class in it). >>The strikes me as unimaginative, plodding. > >pitooey., Not understanding what you're pitooeying. I'm just saying one needn't take a linear path as in "OK, today I'm going to master all the builtins". Look at some now, come back to others later. Kirby PS: since 2.1 or so, an alternative to: newlist = oldlist[:] is newlist = [i for i in oldlist] i.e. this is another idiom for copying a list (dunno about relative speed, often won't matter). -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .

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Re: PEPTALK: path sanity and newbie
by Arthur July 7, 2003

July 7, 2003

>Even if all authors developed perfect packages, and all users installed them >100% per instructions, that still would not address the core issues which >all users need to apply for their own files, folders and modules and setting >paths for them. Not getting it still. In Windows, once you install Python or ActivePython as a self-installing executable there should be no reason, under normal circumstances, to have to touch path issues again. What ever needs to be done with the environment variables, is done at set-up. There are a few things that should be understood, about either using .pth files to extend the search path, or the magic of __init__.py files in sub-directories of the search path. But those are usually developer, distributer issues, not user issues That magic is normally hidden from the user (in the sense they don't *need* to understand it) if the application or library chooses to play by the installation rules. I, for example, don't expect a PyGeo user to have a handle on any of that. It took me a while (we witnesses it here) to understand my "responsibilities" as a distributor of Python software. But it took me a few years to have anything to distribute. Once PyGeo is installed (I am assuming the README instructions are read and followed), one should be able to run a PyGeo script from any directory, using any editor capable of automating nothing more than a call of "python pathtoscript/pygeoscript.py". I find an editor near essential as an intermediary only because I do find navigating paths through Python's os module cumbersome, and since it can't be assumed the the callable script pygeoscript.py is on any path, than one must call it, if at a prompt, either by navigating to its directory, or calling it through its fully qualified pathname. I find it much easier to pull it up in a editor and run it from there (where the call to the fully qualified pathname is essentially automated). Textpad (for Windows), IDLE, SciTE (crossplatform) are the ones I happen to haved used. The Big Guys do emacs or vim. But since I am used to calling Python scripts through an editor, I can get flumaxed when a parameter is needed. Easy in Textpad, possible but a little clumsey (IMO) in SciTE, still don't see it, off hand, in IDLE. Truth is I use IDLE mostly for its interactive prompt, and don't know its editor features very well. That being said, I would say your frustration still sounds a little non-specific. Maybe the fact I had taken a shot at confronting Java classpath issues, when Java was young, helped me approach all these issues as they exist in Python with relative equanimity. The issues I have now are mostly on Linux, and these are usually related to the Linux distribution install of Python, (usually a version or sub-version behind what I might choose to be using), versus the installation of the version I choose to work with. From a brief converstaion with the Red Hat guys who attended the Python conference in DC, I began to understand how strictly their hands are tied by rules related to directory structures of a distribution. And therefore how unavoidable are some of these issues as they exist on Linux. The burden there of getting a handle on a potentially more complex lay of the land with a dual install of Python, ends up on the user, as is normally understood to be so in Linux world. But I would say that I remain convinced that something about your wish list - I don't, again think you are being clear - is related to some unavoidable realities of crossplatform distribution. The kinds of issues over which Python has little to no control. BTW, I have succesfully created full stand-alone, self-installing versions for Windows of both VPython and PyGeo,which include their own Python runtime environment and their own customized versions of SciTE. These installs assume no prior Python installation, nor would they disturb one that existed. Alice (boo!), for example, and many other apps have taken that tack. I may well deploy PyGeo in that form as one alternative. If I ever finish the damn docs. All that being said I can't say, all in all, I have my hands fully around the issue you are trying to express. Beyond some frustration. My suggestion is slow down. Fewer assumptions and preconceptions. Read the damn README - I don't mean to be insulting, but apparently, you didn't. The hardest part might be in being satisfied to start at the beginning. With deliberation. Without shortcuts But I had to come to terms with doing just that, when I was considerably older than you. Art

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Re: PEPTALK: path sanity and newbie mental
by Lee Harr July 7, 2003

July 7, 2003

>- What is the difference from double-clicking setup.py compared to running >"python setup.py install" ? > Well, if the person creating this intends for it to be used in windows, he should be making a windows installer also. It is very simple with distutils... when creating the package, use python setup.py bdist_wininst and the installer is created automatically. I can create a windows installer using distutils from my FreeBSD machine. I always do this, even though I never use any windows software myself. >And IF python were truly cross-platform it would strive for a consistent >solution which also makes good sense for Windows. >In practice, I have the impression that most Python docs and the official >ones are notably *nix oriented. I just find that windows is not a very good software development platform, because it hides too much from would be developers. That said, Python is clearly way ahead of the pack in the cross-platform race. However, I think if you want to be a developer, finding a good shell is a must. It's nice to be able to: 21:29 >cd 21:29 >mkdir dev_area 21:29 >cd dev_area/ 21:29 >setenv PYTHONPATH `pwd` 21:29 >mkdir a_new_package 21:30 >cd a_new_package/ 21:30 >touch __init__.py 21:30 >cat > a_module.py class Foo: pass 21:30 >python Python 2.2.3 (#1, Jun 9 2003, 18:01:50) [GCC 2.95.4 20020320 [FreeBSD]] on freebsd4 Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>>from a_new_package import a_module >>>foo = a_module.Foo() >>> _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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PEPTALK: path sanity and newbie mental
by Arthur July 7, 2003

July 7, 2003

Jason writes - >I am humiliated and feel like moron. I am getting stuck >[again] on my most basic eternal Python newbie issue: >paths and module import. I tried to duplicate your nightmare without much success. Download Jabber, unzip, untar to C:\jabberpy0.4-0. run cmd cd c:\jabberpy0.4-0 python setup.py install python >>Python 2.2.2 (#37, Nov 26 2002, 10:24:37) [MSC 32 bit (Intel)] on win32 Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> import jabber >>> dir(jabber) ['Client', 'Component', 'Connection', 'False', 'Iq', 'JID', 'Log', 'Message', 'NS_AGENT', 'NS_AGENTS', 'NS_AUTH', 'NS_BROWSE', 'NS_CLIENT', 'NS_COMP_ACCEPT', 'NS_COMP_CONNECT', 'NS_DELAY', 'NS_LAST', 'NS_OOB', 'NS_PASS', 'NS_PRIVACY', 'NS_P_COMMANDS', 'NS_P_DISC_INFO', 'NS_P_DISC_ITEMS', 'NS_P_MUC', 'NS_REGISTER', 'NS_ROSTER', 'NS_RPC', 'NS_SERVER', 'NS_TIME', 'NS_VCARD', 'NS_VERSION', 'NS_XDATA', 'NS_XENCRYPTED', 'NS_XEVENT', 'NS_XEXPIRE', 'NS_XROSTER', 'NS_XSIGNED', 'Presence', 'Protocol', 'RS_ASK_SUBSCRIBE', 'RS_ASK_UNSUBSCRIBE', 'RS_EXT_OFFLINE', 'RS_EXT_ONLINE', 'RS_EXT_PENDING', 'RS_SUB_BOTH', 'RS_SUB_FROM', 'RS_SUB_TO', 'Roster', 'Server', 'True', 'USTR_ENCODING', 'VERSION', 'XDB', '_NS_PROTOCOL', '_NS_P_DISCO', '__builtins__', '__doc__', '__file__', '__name__', 'find', 'replace', 'sha', 'split', 'str', 'time', 'ustr', 'xmlstream'] >>> Now I do see that jabber setup.py places the jabber.py and xmlstream.py files directly in site-packages, and yours end up a level down in a sub-directory called jabber. You didn't read the instructions on the box, i.e running setup.py - did you? We have to assume the reading of README, no? """Installation ------------- >From the untared distrubution directory; As root run; python setup.py install """ Did you manually place the jabber files in the sub-directory under site-packages? If your did, the fault is not entirely yours, IMO. That's where you would expect it to be, and where it should be IMO. OK its there, somehow. Instead of futzing with your paths. Create a file with one word "jabber", and save it in site-packages as jabber.pth. Problem solved. I think the sin is part yours, part Jabber's. I hold Python pretty harmless, except: One big issue I do see. I did not run setup.py from IDLE because you need to run it with a parameter "install". I can't see an obvious way to do that in IDLE. If IDLE is to be one's tool, it *has* to be able to run another Python tool as fundmental as setup.py, IMO. Maybe I'm a moron, too - in missing something obvious here. Or maybe the new IDLE (2.3) will better cater to this issue, or us morons. As to where to save files, etc and etc. - you are asking for more structure than Python chooses to impose on you. Where you will, is fine. Especially as Python is truly cross-platofrm, and what would make sense for Windows probably does not make sense for other platforms. Art

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Re: Least used builtins?
by Arthur July 7, 2003

July 7, 2003

>But then, I post a lot about a lot of the same things that concern me >too, so perhaps I'm also feeling defensive ("first they came for >Arthur, and I did nothing, because I wasn't Arthur, then :-) I appreciate the sentiment. But I am not sure there is anything to be done. since I believe what I am up against here is of Cosmic proportion. 1962, Camp Timberlake, Phoenica, New York Bunk 6. He who hit the ball the farthest and ran the fastest knew all. I knew all. Morris Getzels was extremely smart. But he couldn't hit, worth a lick. And therefore knew nothing. So we made his life miserable. I believe my relationship to the Python community is tainted by Karma. I believe, its Morris Getzels' revenge. Art

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Re: [Edu-sig] Re: Least used builtins?
by urnerk＠qwest.net July 6, 2003

July 6, 2003

> Do you agree, or am I overreacting (I know I have my buttons for > Arthur's style)? I disagree. He brings strong views and a perspective, but not at the expense of anyone else. There's plenty of unused bandwidth on edu-sig IMO. But then, I post a lot about a lot of the same things that concern me too, so perhaps I'm also feeling defensive ("first they came for Arthur, and I did nothing, because I wasn't Arthur, then... etc.) :-). Kirby -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .

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PEPTALK - errata
by Jason Cunliffe July 6, 2003

July 6, 2003

oops -- "I believe those two goals cannot be satisfied in one simple consistent solution." Please read that as "CAN satisfied in one simple consistent solution." sorry, Jason

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Re: Least used builtins?
by Arthur July 6, 2003

July 6, 2003

> Kirby writes - > > >What does or doesn't make sense to the newbie is irrelevant. I would, BTW, have very little to say if, for example Guido took that position. Please understand that he has taken the position, here, that the decision about "copy" was made with the newbie in mind. at least in good part. That having it as a built-in would result in its overuse by the newbie. Its the cultural norm to go there in Pythonland. In a recent rehash about case sensitivity, I begged Alex Martelli *not* to go there. And there he went. My comments on "copy" were in response to a point about built-ins and *newbies* being made by Dr. Mertz - one of the more prolific Python authors. I could accuse you of being bullying and politic, for choosing to go after *me* on this issue (rather than Guido or Martelli or Mertz), and in somewhat haughty and nasty terms. But of course I don't want to . Art

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