Mailman 3 July 2003 - Edu-sig

Fwd: Please create an object model of a chicken
by Jason Cunliffe 20 Jul '03

20 Jul '03

panel discussion -- How to Interview a Programmer Bruce Eckel: I ask candidates to create an object model of a chicken. This eliminates any problems with uncertainties about the problem domain, because everyone knows what a chicken is. I think it also jars people away from the technical details of a computer. It tests to see if they are capable of thinking about the big picture. http://www.artima.com/wbc/interprog.html -- Jason

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re: TeachScheme
by Arthur 19 Jul '03

19 Jul '03

>How do we go about being less subject to this kind of >criticism, to the extent it is righteous criticism? My question. And my answer. I would like to be able to say to Shriram: There is no such thing as a "Python-in-education movement". You are raging at vapor. There are numbers of individuals, and teams of individuals, who happen to have found the Python programming language useful in achieving goals related to education Some of us think that happens to be no coincidence. The language is well designed, with intent, to lend itself well to such goals. Beyond that, there is - as well proven here - no consensus among those individuals about much of anything. And no particular concern among them, as to whether others decide to use Python for their own education projects. What movement? I think the new edu-sig page better reflects *just the facts mam*. Who happens to be doing what. Though, honestly I wish it went a step or two further, in being *just* that. Dammit - I don't know what was "pioneering" about the Computer Programming for Everybody in concept or results - and if folks chose to see my saying that as a gratuitous swipe at Guido, rather how I intend it, as a plea for *just the facts mam* as the most Pythonic approach to the involvement of its practitioners in the area of education - so be it. Guido gets the credit he well deserves, and the gratitude of myself, among others, as the designer of the programming language which many of us - each in our own way - have found to be useful (in my case, actually, *important*) in our lives. Can we leave it at that, perhaps? Art

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Re: [Edu-sig] edu-sig page revamped
by Kirby Urner 18 Jul '03

18 Jul '03

At 02:56 PM 7/18/2003 -0400, Beth Platt wrote: >Once again, an excellent resource from Kirby. However, I'm curious as to why >macpython wasn't included? Tell me more. When I test installed macpython at my daughters school, on an iMac running OS9 (I think it was), it installed Tcl and used a version of IDLE as the shell GUI. It didn't seem to color-code the syntax though. Is there a different GUI shell for OS9, not based on Tcl? Pardon my ignorance of Macworld. Kirby PS: seemed like the Apple PowerBook (or is it called an iBook) was about the most popular choice of laptop with the Open Source geeks at OSCON.

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re: TeachScheme
by Arthur 18 Jul '03

18 Jul '03

>I don't find the PLT Scheme "full programming >environment" to be all that super advanced over >whatever he means by "low-level interaction". >Maybe he hasn't seen Patrick's namespace aware >PyAlaMode. I agree that is the weakest link in his argument. As I have said here before - and therfore to Mathias's - it is that environment that stopped in my tracks when I took at a shot at TeachScheme. But also as I've said here, it was the focus on "environment" itself, rather than that *particular* environement that happened to be my problem. I am not alone in feeling that beginning programming is best approached in an as "environmentless" environment as possible. When I didn't see an easy way to get at Scheme, outside of the imposed environment, I moved on. But in fairness, I was learning on my own. Which is not the audience of TeachScheme. In the context of their integrated curricula, it might make perfect sense. And certainly you/we cannot get off the hook that easily - by pointing to the weakest link in his argument. And labeling him as "anti-Python", is a diversion. I wish this was only a *language* war. It is, IMO, something deeper and more significant than that. And I am not quite sure that God is fully on our side. Art

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os.fork() in python for windows.
by Earl 18 Jul '03

18 Jul '03

I recently installed python2_2_3 on Windows 2000. When I call os.fork() I get the error messaage "'module' object has no attribute 'fork'". How do I spawn a new process? Earl Eiland

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re: OSCON presentations available
by Arthur 17 Jul '03

17 Jul '03

>Let me know if anyone out there has high performance computer >modeling >applications that could be interesting to high schoolers. >We have a networked lab of Debian Linux workstations and the >Cray. >Also we have a Mosix cluster of 16 computers, several years old. Renderfarm? Blender, using Python http://www.linuxartist.org/article.php?sid=224 Maybe? Art

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Old News
by Arthur 17 Jul '03

17 Jul '03

Apparently this is widely circulated. I just came across it. http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msp98/news/mco990930.html <QUOTE> Sept. 30, 1999 MARS CLIMATE ORBITER TEAM FINDS LIKELY CAUSE OF LOSS <SNIP> The peer review preliminary findings indicate that one team used English units (e.g., inches, feet and pounds) while the other used metric units for a key spacecraft operation. This information was critical to the maneuvers required to place the spacecraft in the proper Mars orbit </QUOTE> Ouch. In law school (IANAL, btw) the cautionary tale is of the misplaced comma subverting the intended meaning of a contract. Good tales to be told, IMO. Art

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OSCON presentations available
by Arthur 17 Jul '03

17 Jul '03

> http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/python/oscon2003/ wow. Good stuff. Nice to see your work and thought process brought together as a whole, in presentation form. Art

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re: A small essay in my own defense
by ajsiegel＠optonline.net 11 Jul '03

11 Jul '03

>(of which Google says: "Did you mean: *pigeon*" :-). The Pigeon of course being the Python's favorite delicacy. (Another baseless fact, brought to you by Art :) ) Art

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re: A small essay in my own defense
by Arthur 11 Jul '03

11 Jul '03

>I didn't know what you meant about the Scheme people >showing restraint nor what you meant by "hating to 'go >back to Russia'". Yeah. I guess I do talk in riddles, sometimes. But I *am* saying something rather harsh, and it is difficult to say - in so many words. From the edu-sig page - >TeachScheme! >A similar project using Scheme instead of Python; they >have 5 years of experience doing similar things. Really don't want to beat this horse, though. But I am, who I am, so I shall. And suggest that under your definition/concept of CP4E, which is about as good a concept/definition as I might imagine, the statement that it is a "similar project" to TeachScheme, is a mischaracter·i·zation of TeachScheme. CP4E is a slogan and some concepts. What actual resources does it include? I get to that. TeachScheme is a comprehensive set of organized resources developed methodically over a number of years - representing a developed approach to the introduction of programming, and a comprehensive set of organized resources for doing so. How effective it is or isn't - not being the point. I don't know. Not having gone through the program. And it is free and Open Source, and the advocacy of the use of Python as an introductory programming language is in direct competition with it. Saying that CP4E is a "similar project" cannot be supported. Sloppiness of this sort is bad, when it is self-serving. If we put together the best available resources for using Python in education - and there are many good resources - it may be possible to say there are resources out there that can rival TeachScheme. But those resources are individual efforts. And most could not be classified to exist under the CP4E banner, because they are outside of the CP4E concept of being accessible to "everybody" - and certainly their creators may not have not signed off on having their effort as considered within the CP4E "framework". Is everything of an educational nature written in or about Python part of CP4E? Who said? How does one get off that bus? If it is that which grew out of the original CP4E proposal than it is IDLE, perhaps, and only IDLE. Do you want to defend the notion that IDLE is "similar" to TeachScheme? I don't. I'll rather go back to Russia. (I guess that's from my childhood. My family and many of the families around us had Eastern European roots. In the heat of political battle you might tell someone to your Left - and therefore less of a patriot then oneself - to go back to Russia. But you were probably saying it to some Aunt that you loved (and would hate to see go back to Russia), or some Nephew, who had nver been there. Not to be taken too seriously, in other words. Art

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