Mailman 3 December 2004 - Edu-sig

re: Hello, I'm Tim...
by Arthur 16 Dec '04

16 Dec '04

>Kirby's reaction: >I found it very cool to have the outer frame be my Half Life 2 skin over >the Windows media player (not sure if 'nuxers have it yet). Kirby - So I complement you for publishing a curricula description that is substantive, and provides fair warning to anyone showing up to bring their thinking cap. And you follow it with a post about widget appearance and then one rhapsodizing over the skin on your Windows media player. Proving what? That you are still in touch with the folk? You're trying to make be craz(ier), right? Art

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Hello, I'm Tim...
by The Bauman Family 15 Dec '04

15 Dec '04

Kirby told you to ask me questions. You'd need my email address for that (or of course you could email the mailing list... darn I'm stupid). But anyway here I am. Tim

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Re: RE: [Edu-sig] re: Pygeo, platforms, wx and Tk
by ajsiegel＠optonline.net 14 Dec '04

14 Dec '04

> Do you see PyGeo as primarily aimed at teaching Python, or > geometry, or both > or neither? I think the surrounding curriculum, as well as the > architectureof the package itself, will hinge on this question in > some respects. All I can say is that, personally, I use it for both. And I am hoping that "both" is more than a hopeful answer. But I don't think I truly have the right to make that claim until there is something of a curriculum attached to/with PyGeo. However... It is true that my phantom curricula brilliantly synthesizes both ;). > > Here's another question: say two students have PyGeo installed. Can > student A send student B a text file in "pygeo scripting language" > that will > recreate some cool interactive exhibit, like those that come with > PyGeo? PyGeo files are only and nothing but Python files, with extension *.py. My new demos show examples of creating new derived classes on the fly that will behave as "native" PyGeo classes - be interactive and dynamic in a construction. It only requires conforming to some simple requirements of the - whateyoucallit? - abstract class (not the right word, but you get the idea). In some sense, its a good introduction to working with a simple existing API. And helps avoid the blank page syndrome. Which, IMO, is something crucial to avoid. And less prone, IMO, to the problems discussed in attempting to introduce folks to things via game writing. There are less expectations of standards that need to be met before one has something that is "real". IMO. Art

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re: Pygeo, platforms, wx and Tk
by ajsiegel＠optonline.net 14 Dec '04

14 Dec '04

>> TK's capabilities and Arthur's capabilities with TK being different >> issues ;) >Tk is a great cross-platform solution, rock solid and not too hard to use. >However, other cross-platform GUI frameworks exist, are free and open >source, and have their own virtues and vices. Reluctant to go down this road, but: What Arthur uses as a gui toolkit for PyGeo is largely a decision being made by Guido. As mentioned, one of my most primary concerns regarding PyGeo at this point is packaging/distribution. So in the absence of compelling reason to do otherwise, I will stick with the toolkit distributed standard with PyGeo. There are lots of great things being done with other toolkits. And it does seem to me that general concensus would more easily form around wxPython, as truer standard, than TK. Not my battle to fight. And the status of Idle then becomes an issue. But Guido should be made aware if he is not already - since his own writings on education contemplate utilizing 3d graphics - that OpenGL on Tk has become problematic And I guess this is partly an effort to make sure that he is aware of this. (though I am not swearing as to its status as broken/fixed as of today) And I *do* face a crucial functional issue with TK, and only on Linux, as it happens, regarding threading. I may try to present the issue later, to try to get some feedback, and help determine whether the issue is inherent, a limitation of the developer, or a limitation of the particular toolkit. Art.

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re: Pygeo, platforms, wx and Tk
by ajsiegel＠optonline.net 14 Dec '04

14 Dec '04

>As mentioned, one of my most primary concerns regarding PyGeo >at this point is packaging/distribution. So in the absence of compelling >reason to do otherwise, I will stick with the toolkit distributed standard with >PyGeo. Oops. Meant standard with Python. ^^^^^^^^^ While VPython does "include" Python ;) see: http://www.vpython.org PyGeo does not. Art

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RE: Pygeo, platforms, wx and Tk
by Arthur 14 Dec '04

14 Dec '04

Kirby writes - > > > Remember that the gui intensive Leo found no reason to go beyond TK. > > > > I haven't tried Leo on a Mac, but if it doesn't look like Aqua, I'd > probably > not be satisfied with it on a Mac (I might still use it in Windows or > Linux). Ditto for Pygeo. I'm surprised. Hoping we might get through, in an educational context, that looks are only looks. And that functionality is functionality. And that real developers of real world applications might focus on functionality, and short-change looks. I don't think this is a purest, academic lesson. In my real world development work, that is the tact I take, and the tact I am expected to take. Because $ is $. I think we have touched before on the problem that folks tend to get their idea of what software is, from the world of shrink wrapped stuff. Which, as I think we know, represents only a fraction of real world development work. So better help to my Pygeo (and other educational related efforts) would be to educate about the difference between books and covers. No? Art

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Re: [Edu-sig] editor for children
by gen2n 14 Dec '04

14 Dec '04

>This looks to be a very capable, general purpose editor, and it's a great >thing that it's a free download (but is the source available? -- I don't >think so). > > > its a freeware, without possibility of getting the source I think. >There's a Python plug-in for Eclipse that provides some call tips, i.e. a >kind of intellisense providing cues. > >For example, if I type > >import sys >sys. > ^ > > > Thats very nice feature which is promised to us, users, for a quite long time. For now, there works CTRL+Pause where you are offered commands for the type of dokument you are edited currently. ie.. if you have HTML you get list of commands to HTML... > >For a long list of Python-compatible editors, check: >http://www.python.org/moin/PythonEditors -- PSPad is not mentioned, and >could be added (this is a Wiki, so if you register, you can do it). > > > Thanks for this tip Pavel Kosina

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Re: RE: [Edu-sig] editor for children
by ajsiegel＠optonline.net 14 Dec '04

14 Dec '04

> > If there's ever a way to integrate VPython inside of wxWidgets (I > don'tthink there is right now), then I dare say PyGeo would > benefit by moving to > wxWidgets. Arthur's Tk menus and controls could be re-rendered in > a more > capable framework. Remember that the gui intensive Leo found no reason to go beyond TK. TK's capabilities and Arthur's capabilities with TK being different issues ;) Current VPython uses GTK1 on Linux (where an addtional component for creating a GTK OpenGL canvas is necessary) and a native OpenGL canvas for Windows. VPython is working toward some integration with PyOpenGL. Which will be very cool. I am hoping this will also mean that it will eventually render onto any OpenGL capable widget - which would include wxPython and PyGame, among others. Last I looked, the _tkinter OpenGL widget, which has always been a bit of a pain, was out of commission. At the point that VPython offers more flexibility, I will need to reassess my options. And look forward to it. All evidence still pointing to the fact that I have gotten on the right horses, for the kinds the things I have been exploring, and hoping to encourage others to explore. Art

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Re: RE: [Edu-sig] editor for children
by ajsiegel＠optonline.net 13 Dec '04

13 Dec '04

> If there's ever a way to integrate VPython inside of wxWidgets (I > don'tthink there is right now), then I dare say PyGeo would > benefit by moving to > wxWidgets. Arthur's Tk menus and controls could be re-rendered in > a more > capable framework. Plus he'd get the benefit of a more consistent > look on > the different platforms (this would be especially noticeable on > Mac OSX). Remember that the gui intensive Leo found no reason to go beyond TK. TK's capabilities and Arthur's capabilities with TK being different issues ;) Current VPython uses GTK1 on Linux (where an addtional component for creating a GTK OpenGL canvas is necessary) and a native OpenGL canvas for Windows. VPython is working toward some integration with PyOpenGL. Which will be very cool. I am hoping this will also mean that it will eventually render onto any OpenGL capable widget - which would include wxPython and PyGame, among others. Last I looked, the _tkinter OpenGL widget, which has always been a bit of a pain, was out of commission. At the point that VPython offers more flexibility, I will need to reassess my options. And look forward to it. All evidence still pointing to the fact that I have gotten on the right horses, for the kinds the things I have been exploring, and hoping to encourage others to explore. Art

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Re: [Edu-sig] editor for children
by gen2n 13 Dec '04

13 Dec '04

My believed editor for children is Czech PSPad, that is also located to English. That is why I write about. There are many features in it and seems to be very stable even on our W98. Just pickung up from www.pspad.com some functions: Why PSPad ? * do you work with various programming environments ? * do you like highlighted syntax in code ? * do you need a small tool with simple controls and the capabilities of a mighty code editor ? * are you looking for a tool to work with plain text ? * do you want to save money and still have the functionality of professional products ? * then PSPad is for you. PSPad features: * work with projects * work on several documents at the same time (MDI) * Save desktop session to later reopen all open files * FTP client - you can edit files directly from the web * macro recorder to record, save and load macros * search and replace in files * text difference with color-coded differences highlighted * templates (HTML tags, scripts, code templates...) * installation contains templates for HTML, PHP, Pascal, JScript, VBScript, MySQL, MS-Dos, Perl,... * syntax highlighting auto set by file type * user-defined highlighters for exotic environments * auto correction * inteligent internal HTML preview using IE and Mozilla * full HEX editor * call external programs, different for each environment * external compiler with catch command output, log window, log parser for each environment for "IDE" effect * color syntax highlight printing and print preview * integrated TiDy library for formatting and checking HTML code, conversion to CSS, XML, XHTML * integrated free version of top CSS editor TopStyle Lite * export with highlight to RTF, HTML, TeX format into file or clipboard * column block select, bookmarks, line numbers, ... * reformat and compress HTML code, tags char case change * line sorting with ability to sort on defined column, with option to drop duplicates * ASCII chart with HTML entities * Code explorer for Pascal, INI, HTML, XML, PHP, and more in future * spell checker * internal web browser with APACHE support * matching bracket highlighting * ... So thats all. Pavel Kosina gen2n ICQ 176015287 Reuben Grinberg napsal(a): > Vi/ vim and emacs are great editors for programmers that have the time > to learn all their functionality. However, the learning curve for both > of these editors is steep. They are extremely different from anything > most students are familiar with (namely Microsoft Word, Notepad, Text > Areas in web apps, etc...) It's especially disturbing when you open > one of these for the first time and can't seem to quit! I mean, ESC-:q > and C-x C-c – pretty intuitive, huh? > > Nedit is a pretty good editor (http://www.nedit.org/) in several > respects. It has syntax hilighting for many programming languages, > uses the mouse and arrow keys, has menus, and uses familiar keyboard > shortcuts such as Control-C (copy) Control-V (paste), Control-X (cut), > ^S (save), ^O (open), ^W (close), ^Q (quit), ^P (print), etc... > There's basically no learning curve at all, but there are lots of > advanced features that are easy to get to. > > The downside is that it's not straight-forward to install on non-linux > machines (on most linux machines, just type nedit into a terminal and > it should launch. On Windows, it can be installed using Cygwin. Nedit > has a native binary for OS X and it can also be installed using Fink. > > My 2 cents, > Reuben Grinberg > > P.S. I'm a 4th year CS major at Yale. For the record, I use emacs, > pico, nedit, and xcode to do most of my coding. Every once in a while > I'll use Eclipse for a project, but I find it really annoying to set up. > > > > On Dec 7, 2004, at 4:39 AM, Laura Creighton wrote: > >> In a message of Tue, 07 Dec 2004 06:02:47 +0430, "Lee Harr" writes: >> >>>> Does anybody have any recommendations for an editor for children? >>>> In th >>> >>> e >>> >>>> days I was speaking, I used an editor called 'brief' but I don't >>>> think t >>> >>> hey >>> >>>> are in business any more. >>> >>> >>> What attributes are needed in a "for children" editor? >>> (or is a list of attributes what you are looking for?) >>> >> >> Not really. I taught the after school club emacs, which meant we >> spent a lot >> of time 'learnng how to use the editor'. They were bright, heavily >> motivated, >> and what was best, _only 5 of them_. And they got there by being very >> curious >> what I was doing to present stuff to them. But the next proposed >> summer lot >> will be a group of 30, and I don't think I will have enough individual >> instruction time. So I wonder if there is an editor they are likely to >> know -- perhaps unsurprisingly, most kids I know use Microsoft Word to >> edit things, and that's a _rotten_ editor for programming -- of if there >> is one that is known for the speed at which it is learnt. >> >> Laura >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Edu-sig mailing list >> Edu-sig(a)python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >> > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig(a)python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > -- gen2n ICQ 176015287

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