Mailman 3 December 2004 - Edu-sig

Re: [Edu-sig] Learn to Program in Ten Years
by Laura Creighton Dec. 27, 2004

Dec. 27, 2004

In a message of Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:41:19 PST, "Kirby Urner" writes: >I think Gnome is ahead of KDE in some ways and vice versa. What USAers tend >to consider optimal is: competition. We *want* alternative desktops to >compete for hearts and minds, because as would-be users, we stand to gain >from the rivalry. That may sound primitive, but from experience we know >that monopolies breed laziness and lousy service, which in operating systems >translates to all kinds of problems, potentially serious ones (not just >cosmetic). > >Kirby > That doesn't sound primative at all. I'm on the front line of the 'keep software patents out of Europe' war. It is interesting that it sounds to me profoundly anti-American. But then I am spending a huge amount of time kicking holes in the US Patent Office's argument that unless you reward Americans with a monopoly they won't work, and that monopolies are the only effective way to ensure interoperability and the like. I am very glad to see that the USPO does not speak for all of you, and that sentiments expressed in the October 2003 Federal Trade Commission report "To Promote Innovation: The Proper Balance of Competition and Patent Law and Policy" see http://www.ffii.org.uk/swpat/ftc/ftc.html is more representative of your views. A steady diet of monopolist arguments can badly distort your perceptions ... Thanks Kirby, Laura

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RE: [Edu-sig] Learn to Program in Ten Years
by Arthur Dec. 27, 2004

Dec. 27, 2004

On Sun, 2004-12-26 at 16:24 -0800, Kirby Urner wrote: > > Whatever happened to the scenario in which VPython gets a big grant to > improve a great deal? Didn't that pan out? It'd seem that one broad > category that could use some work, in the VPython side, is "plays well with > others." Well, you're kind of setting me up here. Yes VPython has a substantial NSF grant. Substantial enough to fund Python 3.0, or at least a good ways towards it. But despite the best efforts of the guy actually doing the coding - Jonathan Brandenmeyer - it is still a Bruce project. And though Bruce thought nothing of pressing Guido to accommodate his needs as to Idle issues and division operators, I don't think he sees any need to accommodate anything or anyone else. On the immediate issue we are discussing, Sherwood makes no bones about the fact he sees the interactive prompt as a useless feature. His "data" supports the fact that no one gives a shit about it. Which is why he chooses to have his distribution overwrite a standard Python library file to get his way as to the default start-up of Idle. Asking Bruce to spend a nickel of his funding to try to get this problem solved is useless. In short, Bruce's interest in VPython is narrow. A good part of that interest, I am afraid, may have been satisfied when he *got* his funding. Not a nice thing to say, but the man has gotten to me, big time. Art > > I wonder what, if anything, could be done from the VPython side to make > > it friendlier, without it losing it's uniqueness. Understanding that > > part of that uniqueness is the fact that the display is just implicitly > > there. As you know, > > > > I have the same question. > > > >>import visual > > >>visual.sphere() > > > > is sufficient to create not only a sphere() but an entire rendering > > context and display for itself. I am guessing that is accomplished in > > ways other programs needing to cooperate with VPython tend not to like. > > > > I bet you're right. > > > I am at a loss to chip in to finding a solution. But a weekend spent > > trying to get deeper into boost::python and GTK indicates some real > > interest in the problem, and at least good intentions ;) > > > > Art > > Yeah, s'been an interesting and productive thread. Thanks for keeping it > turning. > > Kirby > > > F

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Re: [Edu-sig] Learn to Program in Ten Years
by Laura Creighton Dec. 27, 2004

Dec. 27, 2004

In a message of Sun, 26 Dec 2004 18:40:28 EST, Arthur writes: >Wonder what determines one's taste here. My preference for Gnome is a >strong one. Huge factor: we think Gnome is _really_ _really_ _ugly_. Now why either a) you don't or b) you don't care is one of those _really hard_ questions about cultural differences, that is very hard to answer. The other thing is, of course, that around here, if you want Gnome, you have to ask for it. KDE is what comes up, everywhere. Plenty of people are unaware there is a choice. This cuts two ways -- consulting in the USA, I kept being stopped by people who wanted to know 'what is that window system you are using?' They had never seen it before ... One place I consulted to, 2 days after I started, set out a new policy. 'All people must use Gnome'. I don't think that was in reaction to the amount of work lost in 2 days as it seemed everybody in the office wanted to see KDE, but I could be wrong. At any rate, I cared enough about it -- and things were wrong at that place in enough other ways, that I said 'This isn't going to work out. See you. ' Laura > >Art >

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RE: [Edu-sig] Learn to Program in Ten Years
by Arthur Dec. 27, 2004

Dec. 27, 2004

On Sun, 2004-12-26 at 15:43 -0800, Kirby Urner wrote: > > As to wxPython, I'm afraid it just failed a test of some importance to > > me. VPython does not run interactively from PyShell or PyCrust. It > > just hangs. It does run interactively from the native prompt and from > > the Idle prompt. > > > > Hence my cc to the wxpython dev list, mentioning VPython, and the "would be > nice" prospect of integrating it more effectively. But I think you are talking about something more ambitious than the issue that is my immediate concern. Simply running VPython as one would anything else from the prompt does not imply any real level of integration. On the contrary, it seems that the shell and VPython need to successfully get out of each others' way. And the problem is they don't. Subprocesses, threads, or something. Anything that moves toward real integration would I suspect need to have most of its work done from the VPython side. Apparently VPython is quirky, greedy as it is - since it gives a lot of things that don't normally have trouble, trouble. PythonWin I think is another example. Closing a VPython window closes the IDE with it. Idle went to some lengths to accommodate VPython and prevent this. But it complicated the Idle architecture considerably. As a response to John's concerns I tried to look at the code that runs a script from Idle - and you have threads talking to subprocesses talking to sockets. Totally out of my league to try to truly follow, which is a kind of a shame. I wonder what, if anything, could be done from the VPython side to make it friendlier, without it losing it's uniqueness. Understanding that part of that uniqueness is the fact that the display is just implicitly there. As you know, >>import visual >>visual.sphere() is sufficient to create not only a sphere() but an entire rendering context and display for itself. I am guessing that is accomplished in ways other programs needing to cooperate with VPython tend not to like. I am at a loss to chip in to finding a solution. But a weekend spent trying to get deeper into boost::python and GTK indicates some real interest in the problem, and at least good intentions ;) Art

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Re: [Edu-sig] Learn to Program in Ten Years
by Laura Creighton Dec. 26, 2004

Dec. 26, 2004

In a message of Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:24:47 PST, "Kirby Urner" writes: >At the OSCONs I've managed to attend (2003, 2004), wxPython attracted a high >degree of interest and attendance. We've seen some exciting completed works >making use of it. I've not seen similar enthusiasm for pyGTK. This might >be the big-fish-in-a-small-pond syndrome, but, as I mentioned, I'm not ready >to form a judgment along those lines. While you are preparing judgements -- both wxPython and The Gnome Desktop, hence the GIMP, GTK and PyGTK are more popular in North America than they are in Europe. We are vastly more likely to use KDE than Gnome. wxWindows is not all that popular here: I am trying to think of a single site that uses is, and coming up empty. But I can think of 10 QT sites off the top of my head. Anecdotal for sure, but I don't think I am useless as a barometer of local popular sentiment. Which reminds me. Nearly everbody I know wants a Mac for Christmas. So perhaps we are only numerating the dinosaurs here. Laura

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RE: [Edu-sig] Learn to Program in Ten Years
by Arthur Dec. 26, 2004

Dec. 26, 2004

> I just took a look at the PyGTK 2.0 Tutorial > http://www.pygtk.org/pygtk2tutorial/index.html > > Very encouraging to see that much documentation spelled out in a usable > format. > > However, I'm still curious: do you see PyGTK as a better way to spend your > time than with wxPython? Wx has OpenGL bindings as well, has for quite some > time. Also, wxPython has that very useful front end: when you download it, > you get a huge pile of working code in the form of demos, all wrapped up in > a well-organized wx GUI interface. I find dat extremely cool. Well I guess I thinking that the investment in learning GTK/Gnome has more potential far-reaching benefit. wxPython - and I am not being denigrating in the slightest - is more the big fish in the littlish Python pond. I did choose to take wxPython-dev list off my "reply all" since I'm not looking to raise hackles, or even defend my choices. The PyGTK thing just happens to be where things are leading me personally. Its partly because VPython on Linux uses GTK and I would like to know it better for that reason. And its partly because ubuntu has helped re-ignite a long dormant interest in Linux as a desktop working environment, and I see GTK/Gnome as the Big Pond in that respect. And you in particular will be happy to know that GTK2 *does* have a skins feature ;) Art

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RE: [Edu-sig] Learn to Program in Ten Years
by Arthur Dec. 26, 2004

Dec. 26, 2004

On Sun, 2004-12-26 at 09:43 -0800, Kirby Urner wrote: > > Anybody see the Seinfeld episode where Kramer gets an intern? > > > > Art > > > Relation to Python? Well, it's probably thanks to my being a programmer for > well over 10 years now, that I've had so little time for television (true > rumor: he loved Sesame Street).r Well then you may be proud to know that you are conversing with someone whose brother-in-law was the hind-half of Snuffleupagus for a number of years in its early days. I would go to the set to watch the proceedings occasionally. OK. *Now* I am OT. More On T. An open question to me in making a commitment toward learning PyGTK was its status with OpenGL and PyOpenGL. Turns out the situation looks quite good - in that the developer of gtkglext which is the most active, I think, gtk Opengl extension is also himself the developer of its Python binding PyGtkGLExt. I have it installed and working and it looks quite nice. http://gtkglext.sourceforge.net/ Art

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Cute link for the Willamette CS Department
by Scott David Daniels Dec. 26, 2004

Dec. 26, 2004

You'll enjoy this: http://norvig.com/21-days.html --Scott David Daniels Scott.Daniels(a)Acm.Org

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Firefox ad
by The Bauman Family Dec. 19, 2004

Dec. 19, 2004

You know the Firefox ad in the New York Times on the 17th? My dad bought me a spot (actually 2 spots) in that (I didn't even know til the day of the ad)! Look at my blog and/or the paper to see it; it's Tim Bauman and Kimaster George (no space; it's sort of spelled wrong). Tim -- Visit my website: (and please be a supporter of ... free software, ... free dom, ... by giving others the url) http://kmg.is-a-geek.org Garunteed to be down at least 5% of the time. stff rmed4ur bndwdth "Do you want to reconsider your answer?" "No, I'll remain disconnected."

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Re: [Edu-sig] Re: Firefox ad
by Laura Creighton Dec. 19, 2004

Dec. 19, 2004

Thank you all very much. This is most interesting. What a cool present. Laura

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