Mailman 3 December 2004 - Edu-sig

Re: RE: RE: [Edu-sig] Acadmic gender gap (was Thoughts)
by ajsiegel＠optonline.net Dec. 8, 2004

Dec. 8, 2004

----- Original Message ----- From: Kirby Urner <urnerk(a)qwest.net> Date: Wednesday, December 8, 2004 11:42 am Subject: RE: RE: [Edu-sig] Acadmic gender gap (was Thoughts) > > > Which leaves the alternative, at least for those of us > unaffiliated, to > > rant at them. Or at least that is the only alternative I have > been able > > to see. > > > > But nobody likes a ranter. > > > > I should know ;) > > > > Art > > Those with money who don't like the science party line of the day, are > likely to create affiliations out of whole cloth, and fund counter- > science. The analogy you are making doesn't completely work for me. I don't see the issue here as competing science. I see bad science in the face of questions that cannot be answered by science. If my thesis is correct, if I stick with science, I can only counter with more bad science. But you describe the dynamics correctly. It becomes a funding game. *If* we were talking science, one can sleep with the confidence that in the end, the better science would prevail. If I am correct, and there is no scientific counter to be made, funding will decide the day. And one cannot sleep so well. And my darker visions arise again. Art > In the global warming department, you'll find the Hoover Institute > withfunding from Scaife, pushing back against the UCSD Scripps > Institution of > Oceanography and National Geographic, for example. > > At least that's my current birds eye view, which may be > inaccurate, since > global warming is only a peripheral vision thing for me at the > moment -- > right out there with OWL, DAML and RDF. > > In any case, that's an alternative to ranting as an unaffiliated > being.Either make some new friends, or, failing that, buy some. > > Kirby > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig(a)python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >

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RE: RE: [Edu-sig] Acadmic gender gap (was Thoughts)
by Arthur Dec. 8, 2004

Dec. 8, 2004

Robert writes - > > There is however something to be said however for keeping things > simple. If you can teach something, without artificially adding to the > list of requirements, then you are likely to save yourself some > headaches. Sure there is something to be said for this. But I think you might agree there is not a scientific measure to be made here, outside (perhaps) of contexts that are so narrow as to be meaningless for any practical application. What is more scientific, it seems to me, are identifiable phenomena like the law of diminishing returns, and the "law" of unintended consequences of activity within the realm of real world complexity which is beyond our ability to comprehend. At some point, within a particular context and where an educational process is the goal, easier becomes too easy. We seem to agree there. Based on feel. The legal term for studies (at least the ones I have heard discussed here) that on the surface purport to deal with these issues is "loophole". Since they are not in essence in any sense scientific, there is no coherent scientific argument to be made to refute them. They rely upon their institutional affiliate and their ability to get funded as their authority. And will stand with more authority than they merit. That is a real *social* phenomena. I believe more real and measurable then the study itself. Which leaves the alternative, at least for those of us unaffiliated, to rant at them. Or at least that is the only alternative I have been able to see. But nobody likes a ranter. I should know ;) Art

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RE: RE: [Edu-sig] Acadmic gender gap (was Thoughts)
by John M. Zelle Dec. 8, 2004

Dec. 8, 2004

I hate to belabor this thread, as it seems a bit off topic, still I really feel that I've learned a lot. I just have to make one last response. See below. ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Kirby Urner" <urnerk(a)qwest.net> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 14:17:18 -0800 >Arthur: >> What that impact is, and whether is "good" or "bad", can only be a >> polticized conclusion - as there are no objective criteria for what is >> good and what is bad in this realm. >> >> We are on our own. >> >> Why is there such discomfort with that prospect? >> > >I can live with it. > I find this a dangerous attitude. You could just as easily say we agree that taking large amounts of LSD has effects on very young children. Whether that is "good" or "bad" can only be a politicized conclusion, as there is no objective criteria for what is good and bad. I'm sorry, but I can't accept that. If good scientific research does indeed establish that early exposure to video games and other electronic media causes loss of creativity, aggression, poor socialization, lack of concentration and contributes to academic failure, and if it is shown to be linked to a mental disorder (ADHD), then I cannot accept that as "good" in any stretch of the imagination. I'm not saying that the research at this point is definitive, but it's damn scary. Please don't misinterpret; I'm not saying that every kid who plays video games is headed for trouble, that's not the way complex causation works. But if it's even one in 10 or 1 in 50, that's a significant issue. Drinking alchohol during pregnancy has been linked to similar symptoms for the child. We try to discourage that. On the other hand, many parents are fighting tooth and nail to get more computers into early education. Why not wait? They can learn anything they need to learn about computers when they're in Junior High or later. It worked for most of us. >One aspect of today's video games that I think may be somewhat negative, is >they just blow us away with their breakthrough sophistication. Some kid >sitting in front of a Pygame console, manual open, just doesn't feel this is >the cockpit of the same airplane, or even the same species of vehicle. >"Tongue tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I" ('Learning to Fly', >Momentary Lapse of Reason, Pink Floyd). > >For example, over Thanksgiving, I spent a goodly amount of time watching >over the shoulder of my friend Les as he deftly maneuvered his way through a >totalitarian world run by weird creatures from another dimension, with some >human big brother quisling doing the propaganda -- cold, Eastern European >looking towns, humans queuing for trains that never arrive, shuffling, heads >down, guards with electric truncheons, ready to beat you back if you try to >cross one of their crowd control lines. > >The physics in this game has been finely tuned. Les took me to an abandoned >playground (no children, no sounds of fun). He picked up a cinder block and >put it on one end of a see-saw, climbed an adjacent porch, and jumped on the >other end of the see-saw. The cinder block flew up a little (it's heavy), >and landed with a muffled thunk, kind of like the dead bodies do, elsewhere >in this game. You can pick up just about any free object and throw it, >sometimes with the aim to kill (several at once if you're good). > >Of course this virtual world is not the creation of one lone wolf coder. >This is Valve, one of the strongest coding shops in the world right now. > >http://www.valvesoftware.com/ >http://www.half-life2.com/ > >I think the workaround is to remind students that what we're up to is making >"cave paintings" -- simplified homomorphisms (not isomorphisms) with several >dimensions removed, and yet with enough intact analogies, enough realism, to >impart the skills, heuristics, and habits of mind, that will serve the cave >dweller well in future, as dimensions are added back. > >So learn your PyGame and SDL, and you'll be that much closer to your career >objective. And who knows, along the way you might code some decent and fun >little open source freebies, like Frozen Bubble (a staple in Linux world). > >Kirby > > >_______________________________________________ >Edu-sig mailing list >Edu-sig(a)python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >

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Re: editor for children
by Darren Payne Dec. 8, 2004

Dec. 8, 2004

May I suggest gvim (vim) as an editor. I have been using it for about 3 years with mainly yr10 - 12 students. Hoiwever, I have also shown it to 2 groups of very bright ten year olds who picked it up really easily. I like it because it is a dedicated editor for programmers, allows you to select the syntax highlighting for the language you are using and you can compile nad run your code from within gvim if you wish. Oh ... and it is open source too, runs on both windows and linux (probly mac too). regards ===== ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- regards Darren Payne Hurlstone Agricultural High School Ph: 9829 9222 Fax: 98292026 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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Re: RE: [Edu-sig] Acadmic gender gap (was Thoughts)
by ajsiegel＠optonline.net Dec. 7, 2004

Dec. 7, 2004

Joseph writes - > So before I buy into blaming video games for gender gaps, I would > like to see a whole lot more study. Please no. Not more studies. Either the playing of video games has an impact, or it does not. You and John seem to agree that it does. What that impact is, and whether is "good" or "bad", can only be a polticized conclusion - as there are no objective criteria for what is good and what is bad in this realm. We are on our own. Why is there such discomfort with that prospect? >We as students of computing > should be among the investigators. I think that students and practitioners of computing are among the least objective observers possible. Is someone in the position of, say, Alan Kay, able to objectively contemplate fully the sanity of his devotion to the notion of the children learning through the technology that computers have made available? What one wishes, in all good faith (or bad) to be true, tends to be found to be in fact true, where no criteria for an objective study of what is true, in truth, exists. Art

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RE: [Edu-sig] Acadmic gender gap (was Thoughts)
by Joseph D. Oldham Dec. 7, 2004

Dec. 7, 2004

I like using John's book, and I have not been following this thread, but I want to respond to what John has said about video games. I have not read the studies showing detrimental effects. I have looked at Gee's "What Video Games have to Teach us about Literacy and Learning" and find some good ideas there. Others have similar points to make. Anecdotal evidence in our house points to some real power in, and some positives from, video games. I've had plenty of (good) students, some women, in the last 5 years who were gamers. Nor is it just video games that separate boys from girls. For instance, in the past years there have been monumental, well justified efforts to support girls in schools. The school-centered opportunities for girls now versus when I grew up are phenomenal. I have a daughter and I applaud the changes. (In fact those changes could still go further.) I have a son too. I see very little effort having been put toward lifting boys up. His experience is moch more like mine 35 years earlier. (The perception has been they've been on top -- yet they're weaker academically. Check out, for instance, "The Wonder of Boys", Michael Gurian.) One further difference I see in what my son (the older child) is getting in school versus what I got is the pace of the curriculum. He's doing great. But he's learning more sooner, and started preschool at a younger age. Maybe that isn't all good. Maybe boys, who mature slowly, respond poorly. (Which does not explain why girls don't compute...) So before I buy into blaming video games for gender gaps, I would like to see a whole lot more study. We as students of computing should be among the investigators. The technology we study has enabled video games. We should be looking at gaming far beyond simple judgement, and beyond issues of how to code, looking at levels of design and impact as well. Who knows, maybe it would even be a good idea if we played a few games... %^) -----Original Message----- From: edu-sig-bounces+oldham=centre.edu(a)python.org on behalf of John Zelle Sent: Mon 12/6/2004 2:12 PM To: edu-sig(a)python.org Subject: [Edu-sig] Acadmic gender gap (was Thoughts) OK, I lost one message, and then this one was bounced as Spam. I'm trying to post this one last time with a clean subject heading. Hello, I had a long, detailed reply to this post that got "eaten" by the dog that is our email system. This is a shorter note, as Douglas has already posted some ideas that touched on mine regarding women in computer science. The dominance of girls/women in academics now is well-attested. At the undergraduate level we struggle to get high-quality male students, and our Dean's list is about 2/3 women. However, I personally doubt that this has very much to do with any pro-girl agenda in our schools. As far as I can tell (my first child is in first grade now), public education has not changed a whole lot since I went through. And the article points out that what changes have been made are a reflection of new economic realities, not any political agenda. What I think has changed significantly is what our children are doing outside of school. They are watching television, surfing the Internet, and playing video games. There is a growing list of credible scientific research showing that computers and video games for young children are actually detrimental to developing creativity, problem solving skills, concentration (on non-computer tasks) and social skills. There are also some preliminary studies showing a link between electronic media exposure and the epidemic of ADHD diagnoses with its concommitant drugging of our children to "improve their concentration." The time spent huddled with a video game is time not spent out experiencing the real world in all it's richness. It's time not spent in meaningful social interation with peers. Although I love computers, I am in no hurry to expose my youngsters to the virtual world. What has this got to do with an academic gender gap? Well, it's primarily boys that are playing video games and messing around on computers. I just saw an article in Newsweek or Time (can't remember which) that documented how traditional toy manufacturers are getting crushed by the gameboy, xbox, Playstation, and computer-game competition. Boys are starting down this road already in the 3-6 age group. Girls are increasingly affected, but still play with more traditional toys up until age 10 or so. It could just be that the reason boys are not succeeding at the same rate has nothing to do with education per se, but with the increasing number who are simply ill-equipped for school. My hunch is that a well-behaved, non-video-gaming boy does just as well in the supposed "new curriculum" as his female counterpart. Some study needs to be done on this. Given that fewer boys are succeeding, we darn well better figure out ways to attract talented girls/women to the IT field, or we will be in sorry shape. And heaven help us when the marketers finally find the killer electronic game for young girls; that will equalize the playing field in the worst possible way. Those are a few of my thoughts... --John _______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig(a)python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig

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Re: [Edu-sig] Acadmic gender gap (was Thoughts)
by ajsiegel＠optonline.net Dec. 7, 2004

Dec. 7, 2004

This also a repost of a bounce. What's with this Spam sensitivity all of a sudden? > The dominance of girls/women in academics now is well-attested. At > the > undergraduate level we struggle to get high-quality male students, > and > our Dean's list is about 2/3 women. However, I personally doubt > that > this has very much to do with any pro-girl agenda in our schools. > As far > as I can tell (my first child is in first grade now), public > education > has not changed a whole lot since I went through. And the article > points > out that what changes have been made are a reflection of new > economic > realities, not any political agenda. I have to disagree, but only to an extent. My son ended up at a "progressive" public high school, where students were judged by their portfolios, the more elaborate the better - rather than by test. Nothing like that existed in my time. He barely got by. I was told at one point that his graduation was in doubt. He made his way to a large somewhat institutional college - where he is judged by performance on exams. And he is excelling. The best I can figure out - and I can't help trying to put him in the best light (I'm kind of fond of the young man) - is that he has a lot more patience for learning than he has for proving to someone else what it is that he has learned. The bother of sitting for an exam is tolerable. The implied - what? - subservience, of the going out of one's way to the extent of elaborate "portfolios" of one kind or another. to demonstrate to someone else one's understanding of a subject is more than he is willing to undertake with any degree of commitment or devotion. We can argue about whether the method of judgement of academic performance has, in general and in fact, changed and the degree to which any such change is a result of gender or other politics. And probably only argue. I say yes - it has changed and at least partly as a result of gender politics - recognizing there are other factors at work as well, including the self-indulgent whining of folks like myself in the 60's. But as it turns out, sadly (in some sense) , perhaps, women are brought up more anxious to please and more willing to go out of their way to do so, and for the wrong reasons more prepared to thrive in this kind of environment. Be that as it may, it seems to me we are measuring more the student's commitment to the environment and willingness to work to please (and in that sense their successful socialization), than we are their acquisition of knowledge. While this is *not* the whole of the story, I think it is a decent part of it. Art ----- Original Message ----- From: John Zelle <john.zelle(a)wartburg.edu> Date: Monday, December 6, 2004 7:12 pm Subject: [Edu-sig] Acadmic gender gap (was Thoughts) > OK, I lost one message, and then this one was bounced as Spam. I'm > trying to post this one last time with a clean subject heading. > > Hello, > > I had a long, detailed reply to this post that got "eaten" by the > dog > that is our email system. This is a shorter note, as Douglas has > already > posted some ideas that touched on mine regarding women in computer > science. > The dominance of girls/women in academics now is well-attested. At > the > undergraduate level we struggle to get high-quality male students, > and > our Dean's list is about 2/3 women. However, I personally doubt > that > this has very much to do with any pro-girl agenda in our schools. > As far > as I can tell (my first child is in first grade now), public > education > has not changed a whole lot since I went through. And the article > points > out that what changes have been made are a reflection of new > economic > realities, not any political agenda. > > What I think has changed significantly is what our children are > doing > outside of school. They are watching television, surfing the > Internet, > and playing video games. There is a growing list of credible > scientific > research showing that computers and video games for young children > are > actually detrimental to developing creativity, problem solving > skills, > concentration (on non-computer tasks) and social skills. There are > also > some preliminary studies showing a link between electronic media > exposure and the epidemic of ADHD diagnoses with its concommitant > drugging of our children to "improve their concentration." The > time > spent huddled with a video game is time not spent out experiencing > the > real world in all it's richness. It's time not spent in meaningful > social interation with peers. Although I love computers, I am in > no > hurry to expose my youngsters to the virtual world. > > What has this got to do with an academic gender gap? Well, it's > primarily boys that are playing video games and messing around on > computers. I just saw an article in Newsweek or Time (can't > remember > which) that documented how traditional toy manufacturers are > getting > crushed by the gameboy, xbox, Playstation, and computer-game > competition. Boys are starting down this road already in the 3-6 > age > group. Girls are increasingly affected, but still play with more > traditional toys up until age 10 or so. > > It could just be that the reason boys are not succeeding at the > same > rate has nothing to do with education per se, but with the > increasing > number who are simply ill-equipped for school. My hunch is that a > well-behaved, non-video-gaming boy does just as well in the > supposed > "new curriculum" as his female counterpart. Some study needs to be > done > on this. > > Given that fewer boys are succeeding, we darn well better figure > out > ways to attract talented girls/women to the IT field, or we will > be in > sorry shape. And heaven help us when the marketers finally find > the > killer electronic game for young girls; that will equalize the > playing > field in the worst possible way. > > Those are a few of my thoughts... > > --John > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig(a)python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >

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Re: [Edu-sig] Acadmic gender gap (was Thoughts)
by Laura Creighton Dec. 7, 2004

Dec. 7, 2004

In a message of Mon, 06 Dec 2004 22:10:42 PST, Marilyn Davis writes: >One more thing. The fact that women aren't in computing as much as >men totally escapes me. I don't get it at all. Coding seems very >much like sewing to me, requiring artful careful well-planned and >often tedious work. I remember that, when typewriters first came out, >it was men's work. And then it changed. So I wouldn't count it as >decided yet. > >What do you think? > >Marilyn Davis Right now, at Chalmers University (in Sweden) the women outnumber the men in the Chemistry undergraduate department, while men still outnumber women in the other fields. The current belief is that until you get something like 30% of your class female, women will not show up in sufficient numbers to produce a 50/50 split. Women apparantly do not evaluate their university courses only based on 'how much they like the subject' or 'even how well they expect to do in the subject' but instead 'how much would I enjoy majoring / taking courses in the subject' -- or perhaps they think that they are unlikely to do well in a subject that does not already have a lot of other women. The men tend to read the syllabus, think 'I should do well in this' and sign up. The women look for other women to ask about the Major, and end up doing what some other woman explained to them worked out wonderfully for her. Not all, of course, but enough that this is statistically signigicant. At any rate, getting successful women graduates to come back and tell gymnasium (US: high school) students how terrific being a Chalmers Physics major was is now believed to be even more influential than they thought. The girls aren't learning how to sew, either. Mithlond, the Tolkien Society holds classes in sewing, so people can learn how to make period costumes. Heavily attended. Nobody is learning this stuff in school or at home any more. Laura

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Re: RE: [Edu-sig] Acadmic gender gap (was Thoughts)
by ajsiegel＠optonline.net Dec. 7, 2004

Dec. 7, 2004

Marilyn writes - > One more thing. The fact that women aren't in computing as much as > men totally escapes me. I don't get it at all. Coding seems very > much like sewing to me, requiring artful careful well-planned and > often tedious work. Coding seems more like rebuilding carborateurs to me ;) But the cultural bias of the moment is that you are encouraged to make your analogy publically, in writing, in decent company, and I am not allowed to make mine - unless I am careless of my career. think about it. Art

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editor for children (was Re: explaining functions [Possibly OT])
by Lee Harr Dec. 7, 2004

Dec. 7, 2004

>Does anybody have any recommendations for an editor for children? In the >days I was speaking, I used an editor called 'brief' but I don't think they >are in business any more. What attributes are needed in a "for children" editor? (or is a list of attributes what you are looking for?) _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

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