Mailman 3 May 2004 - Edu-sig

Re: [Tutor] what? (late nite entertainment) (*)
by Gregor Lingl 25 Mar '05

25 Mar '05

Now: early morning corrections ... Alfred Milgrom wrote: > Hi Gregor: > > Hard to work out what is what :) as there seems to be a typo in one > line of your code: > > if x[z]: x[z*z:n:z]=y[z*z:n:z] > > (At least it doesn't work on my machine with Python 2.2) > Yeah, I had the idea when playing around with some new features of Python 2.3, as I do sometimes late at night - before shutting down my computer. This one I found at: http://www.python.org/doc/2.3.3/whatsnew/section-slices.html and I looked for an example for use of "assignment with extended slices" ... > Also the subroutine breaks for n = 1 or less. > Maybe you need a line at the start to say > if n <2 : return [0] > what() was intended to generate all primes less than n. (In fact it's an implementation of the sieve of Eratosthenes). The bugs came not only from not beeing interested in primes less than 2 ;-) but also from beeing a little tired already. Sorry. I think the following version repairs that - and hopefully uses less obfuscating variable names (which in fact originally was part of the "riddle"): def primes(n): sieve, zeros = range(n), [0]*n sieve[:2]= 0,0 i = 1 while i*i < n: if sieve[i]: sieve[i*i:n:i]=zeros[i*i:n:i] i += 1 return [p for p in sieve if p] Regards, Gregor >

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Re: Introductory high school programming
by Darren Payne 01 Aug '04

01 Aug '04

See topics & msgs below to put my comments in context. I have been a member of this group for quite a while and content myself with reading the interesting things people have to say. Now I would like to add some of my experiences for others to consider. I teach computing to high school students in Australia (Sydney, NSW actually). I currently work in a "selective" school - US readers would understand this better as magnet school. Entry is gained via a battery of tests & positions offered. A few years ago I completed post grad study in gifted ed - at the end was invited to write a 2 day unit to be used in the university's gifted program. I have taken up this offer and based it on work by Jeff Spence (Canadian guy on exchange in my hometown a few years back) Anyway - I have been using Java and have reasonably successfully taught an introduction to Java - as a first language - to 10 and 11 year old children. This year I decided I would introduce my year 7 classes to Java. Now, after one term (10 weeks), I fear it is just too difficult. In essence, the more Java I learn the less I like Java. The decision to go with Java was encouraged by my current yr12 class whom last year were determined to learn a "real" language AKA C++. I compromised and "taught" them Java. Only one of these students has put in enough effort to establish any level of skill with the language. I really wanted to show them Python. Last year (as well - in parallel to yr12) I started teaching Python as a first language to my yr9 (now yr10) class - they loved it and I enjoyed teaching it. Re Scheme; my yr12 class also do an option involving different paradigms - one of these is the functional paradigm. So I teach Haskell. I really like it, I like the way it makes me think. Because the students can be examined on either Hskell or Scheme (Lisp) I also show them some Scheme - but prefer Haskell becasue no reverse Polish notation and no brackets! In summary, I have found Python far and away to be the best language for high school students. It is powerful, easy to use, has clear simple syntax that doesn't "get in the way", is extendable with loads of other modules, has an active developer community, is open source so I can burn it CD and legally give it to kids to take home and so much more. Perhaps best of all it teaches the major, MODERN CONCEPTS in programming and these are easily transferred to other languages. I don't like Java (read this like "tiggers don't like Java" - I have a 3 yr old and 4 old!)- it is all just hype and we have all been suckered in. Compiler errors are a hassle for students - interpreted is much better during learning & development of programs. Being forced to use OO for even trivial programs puts too much overhead in the way of learning to program. Python overcomes this because OO is optional - you don't have to use it with trivial programs. Anyway - enough from me at this point. Hope this offers a semi empirical flavour to the discussion. regards P.S. - consider Python Programming for absolute beginner by Michael Dawson as a text. Darren Payne Hurlstone Agricultural High School > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Introductory high school programming class - > Python or > TeachScheme (Joseph Ehlers) > 2. Python for High School Students (Garret > McGraw) > 3. RE: Introductory high school programming class > - Python > orTeachScheme (Kirby Urner) > 4. RE: Introductory high school programming class > - Python > orTeachScheme (Liow, Dr. Yihsiang) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 20:48:25 -0500 > From: "Joseph Ehlers" <ehlersjp(a)msn.com> > Subject: [Edu-sig] Introductory high school > programming class - Python > or TeachScheme > To: <edu-sig(a)python.org> > Message-ID: > <BAY4-DAV64OgRGkQ6mB00001262(a)hotmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I'm trying to propose an introductory computer > programming class for high school students. I do > not have a programming background so I will be > learning the language just like the students. > Through my research I came across Python. It sounds > great - easy to learn, teaches thinking skills, and > is fun. I was set to go with Python then I came > across the TeachScheme project which also sounds > great - it too is easy to learn, teaches thinking > skills and comes with lots of curriculum. I have a > few questions and I'm hoping this group can shed > some light on this issue. > > 1. Is one better than the other (Python vs. > TeachScheme) to teach high school novices > programming skills, thinking skills, language, and > keeping their attention so I can then have an > audience for a second, more advanced programming > class? > > 2. I've looked at "How to Think Like a Computer > Scientist", it looks very doable for a novice and > "Python Programming for the Absolute Beginner" > (Premier Press) looks like a lot of fun. Is there > any other curriculum for high school students out > there? > > 3. Is it possible to teach a semester of > TeachScheme and a semester of Python or is that > overkill on the basics and not doing justice to > either program? > > I appreciate your assistance. >

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VPython
by ajsiegel＠optonline.net 02 Jun '04

02 Jun '04

Kirby writes - >Yes. I'm meaning to pursue Scott's suggestion to look at Ruth Chabay's >code. FWIW, PyGeo's copy of Ruth's povexport module extends it a bit, allowing, for example, export of the VPython "faces" (triangle mesh) primitives. The export of the "faces" relies on some functionality not added to Pov-ray until version 3.5. Art

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Re: Fwd: [Fwd: Why we need "Fat Python"]
by Jeff Sandys 26 May '04

26 May '04

> The message below was bounced back to me from the mailing list > because it said I'm not a member ... The list owner changed the list properties 2 months ago to stop the spam, check your email address or resubscribe at: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > I really want to get discussion going around this topic. There > have been several opportunities recently to advance Python in > education, but distribution difficulties of the software are a > big impediment. What are the distribution difficulties that cause the impediment? > There are also threats. I just received from my supervisor a > sample competency list for a new National Occupational > Competency Testing Institute (NOCTI) exam in Computer > Programming. ... Who uses the NOCTI? Is it stodgy companies who are looking for VB programmers, or companies the NOCTI sells its services to? > Python is not on the list. Neither is Java, and that will > never stand, so there might be an opportunity here to do some > more education around the merits of Python. > > Thanks! I think that computers and programming are getting to a critical mass where the is division between computer science and CP4E. I think that computer programming should be a modern skill that every student learns, like reading, writing, arithmetic, art, music, and sports. Every student should have the ability to express themselves in all these media because these media will be a part of there lives. Not everyone will make a vocation of computer science or other expressive media but they will use all these media in whatever vocation they choose. To me if NOCTI has 'write a program in Python' or not, doesn't matter as much as getting more (every) student exposed to programming. So tell me more about the distribution problems. Thanks, Jeff Sandys

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Fwd: [Fwd: Why we need "Fat Python"]
by Michael McLay 26 May '04

26 May '04

Jeff's message to this list bounced for some reason. He asked that I forward it to the list. I agree with Jeff that we need to get Python made a requirement for the NOCTI exam. I'd also like to see the requirement for Visual Basic dropped. That is a proprietary technology that may not be available to someone who does not have access to a Windows computer. Anything that can be done in Visual Basic also can be done with Python (with the Glade tool if you need to demonstrate the development of a GUI application.) ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: [Fwd: Why we need "Fat Python"] Date: Wednesday 26 May 2004 6:40 am From: Jeffrey Elkner <jeff(a)elkner.net> To: Michael McLay <mclay(a)python.net> Hi Michael, The message below was bounced back to me from the mailing list because it said I'm not a member (I've been active on the list for years, so I don't know why that happened?) Any chance you could send it to the list for me? I really want to get discussion going around this topic. There have been several opportunities recently to advance Python in education, but distribution difficulties of the software are a big impediment. There are also threats. I just received from my supervisor a sample competency list for a new National Occupational Competency Testing Institute (NOCTI) exam in Computer Programming. Under the heading "Code Programs" was the following options: Write a BASIC program Write a COBOL program Write a C program Write a Visual Basic program Python is not on the list. Neither is Java, and that will never stand, so there might be an opportunity here to do some more education around the merits of Python. Thanks! -- Jeffrey Elkner <jeff(a)elkner.net> Open Book Project <http://ibiblio.org/obp> -------------------------------------------------------

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Re: [Edu-sig] Re: Teaching graphics with Python (was Introductoryhighschool programming)
by John Zelle 11 May '04

11 May '04

Kirby Urner wrote: >Re: www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/python/nks.py > > > >>individually. I should try it with rectangles. >> >> >> > >Definitely faster with rectangles. > >In Tk, getting down to the actual pixel level (pixelsize=1), even with Point >(tried in place of Rectangle), I get a fuzzy picture. > > > >Might be some problem with my algorithm I didn't catch. > > > Actually, Tk doesn't give you pixel level control. In my graphics package, I fake it with small rectangles. So yes, using rectangles would be much better. Another problem with rendering speed is that my graphics package automatically flushes the graphics window after every operation. This makes simple animations easier, but when you are doing lots of small updates, this is very inefficient. My latest version of the package (still in testing) adds an option to turn off the auto-flush. Using this option, you can do a bunch of draws before actually updating the view. I think the result would be a much faster draw, but it's still going to be slower than PIL If you're interested, I could post the latest version of graphics.py. >An advantage of the PIL method is you're building something savable. With >graphics.py, I don't see a way to save the canvas to a file. > > > > This is problem with graphics.py. Tk provides a method to dump canvases to postscript, but the last time I checked it only worked under Unix/Linux. I'm not sure if this has been brought into the Windows world as well, I haven't looked recently. --John >(for color coded view, in browser, use: >http://www.4dsolutions.net/cgi-bin/py2html.cgi?script=/ocn/python/nks.py > >Kirby > > > > > >

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VPython
by Joel Kahn 10 May '04

10 May '04

I'm glad to see that there is a strong interest in VPython among members of the edu-sig. Keep an eye on the "contributed programs" page at vpython.org: I've already got a couple of my recent humble efforts up there, and I'm planning more. . . . An idea for you folks to chew on: making posters &c of Python-graphical artworks and selling them to raise money for Python educational R&D. Think it over. Joel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover

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Introductory high school programming class - Python or TeachScheme
by Jeff Sandys 07 May '04

07 May '04

I guess it matters on what you want to do. If you want to prep for the AP, teach java. because the test uses java. If you want to teach Computer Science, teach Scheme, because Scheme is used in _Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs_, the seminal computer science book. If you want to teach programming, teach Python, because it has the best balance of power and ease of use. At our Seattle Python Interest Group we went around the room saying what we use Python for. My answer, to write programs! Because when I need a program to do something, I need it now, I want it fast, and it has to be easy to write. Lisp (Scheme is a dialect of Lisp) is a great porgramming language, but I find even after years of practice I have to think really hard when I write Lisp code, and with Python I hardly have to think to write code. The language I have used in a middle school programming club is Logo, which has an expression, "no threshold, no ceiling". And Logo has a low threshold and is very expressive, but without the libraries it has a low ceiling. Python has a higher threshold than Logo, IMHO, but with the libraries it has a high ceiling. Scheme's threshold is higher than Python and with limited libraries Scheme's ceiling is lower. Scheme's expresiveness is more powerful, sometimes when programming in Python I wish Python had a feature or syntax found in Lisp, but then I code around it and remember why I am using Python in the first place. Thanks, Jeff Sandys

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Re: Introductory high school programming class - Python or TeachScheme
by Bruce Cohen 06 May '04

06 May '04

Having taught a high school programming class using each language, I want to throw in my two cents. I am a math teacher who (having both academic training and experience in CS) was willing to teach a programming class when I arrived at my current school in 2000. To prepare students for the AP CS class, students were required to take a one semester class in programming. My colleague was using C++ (then the AP language) as the vehicle for introducing programming. Although I was comfortable with C, I did not think that C++ would work well, so I too went off to the net and found Python. I really liked Python, but was somewhat concerned about having to develop my own curriculum. In 2000, there was not as many Python resources available as there are now. Through this very list, I discovered TeachScheme and attended a workshop during the summer of 2001. I really liked the TeachScheme philosophy and the availablility of the text _How to Design Programs_, online. (I teach in a public high school where resources are very limited.) In scheme, the focus is really on design ideas and not on syntax -- not that Python syntax is that difficult. I don't have a clear preference for either language. I think both are good places for students to begin. The advantage of TeachScheme (for me) was the well designed curriculum. My sense is that students have more fun with Python. At any rate, I am now very happy to limit my CS involvement to monitoring this list, while all of my teaching is limited to geometry and calculus. -Bruce Bruce Cohen | e-mail: bic(a)cgl.ucsf.edu Lowell High School | http://www.cgl.ucsf.edu/home/bic

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RE: [Edu-sig] Introductory high school programming class - Python orTeachScheme
by Liow, Dr. Yihsiang 06 May '04

06 May '04

To make programming fun, you have to go beyond the language and do interesting things with it. That means using libraries or tools/frameworks. Two semesters of Python will get you much further and you'll retain more students too. "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist" will not get your students into interesting applications yet. So I strongly suggest you cover "How to Think ..." in 1 semester and spend the next doing some fun projects such as web applications using Zope or game using PyGame, etc. You can also put some of the more advance stuff in "How to Think ..." in the second semester and start a project during the first semester. Scheme is a great language but it is more "academic" than Python and does not seem to have as strong a pull as Python in the industry. So Python will definitely catch more attention. For instance compare the two: CS101. Do you want to learn a programming language, Scheme, taught at MIT? ... CS101. Do you want to learn a programming language, Python, used by Google and Yahoo! and Industrial Light & Magic and NASA? ... There are success stories in Scheme. If you want to use Scheme, you might want to check out http://www.schemers.org/Documents/FAQ/, but I think most of your potential students will not identify with the software listed there. For Python's success stories, go to http://pythonology.org/success. Hope this helps. - yihsiang -----Original Message----- From: edu-sig-bounces(a)python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Ehlers Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 8:48 PM To: edu-sig(a)python.org Subject: [Edu-sig] Introductory high school programming class - Python orTeachScheme I'm trying to propose an introductory computer programming class for high school students. I do not have a programming background so I will be learning the language just like the students. Through my research I came across Python. It sounds great - easy to learn, teaches thinking skills, and is fun. I was set to go with Python then I came across the TeachScheme project which also sounds great - it too is easy to learn, teaches thinking skills and comes with lots of curriculum. I have a few questions and I'm hoping this group can shed some light on this issue. 1. Is one better than the other (Python vs. TeachScheme) to teach high school novices programming skills, thinking skills, language, and keeping their attention so I can then have an audience for a second, more advanced programming class? 2. I've looked at "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist", it looks very doable for a novice and "Python Programming for the Absolute Beginner" (Premier Press) looks like a lot of fun. Is there any other curriculum for high school students out there? 3. Is it possible to teach a semester of TeachScheme and a semester of Python or is that overkill on the basics and not doing justice to either program? I appreciate your assistance.

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