Mailman 3 October 2005 - Edu-sig

Rich Data Structures (cont.)
by Kirby Urner 03 Nov '05

03 Nov '05

""" A rich data structure: lists of lat/long tuples in a city indexed dictionary. Distance function provided. Could be used to introduce data structures in Python. Although spherical trig gets used, lessons needn't focus on that. Typical exercise: write getkms(citya, cityb) to return distance in kilometers. Typical usage: >>> from uscan import cities, getmiles >>> pdx = cities['Portland, Ore.'] >>> miami = cities['Miami, Fla.'] >>> sea = cities['Seattle, Wash.'] >>> getmiles(pdx, sea) 146.20520973103621 >>> getmiles(pdx, miami) 2707.8603168909253 """ from math import acos, cos, sin, radians cities = { 'Albany, N.Y.': [(42, 40, 'W'), (73, 45, 'N')], 'Albuquerque, N.M.': [(35, 5, 'W'), (106, 39, 'N')], 'Amarillo, Tex.': [(35, 11, 'W'), (101, 50, 'N')], 'Anchorage, Alaska': [(61, 13, 'W'), (149, 54, 'N')], 'Atlanta, Ga.': [(33, 45, 'W'), (84, 23, 'N')], 'Austin, Tex.': [(30, 16, 'W'), (97, 44, 'N')], 'Baker, Ore.': [(44, 47, 'W'), (117, 50, 'N')], 'Baltimore, Md.': [(39, 18, 'W'), (76, 38, 'N')], 'Bangor, Maine': [(44, 48, 'W'), (68, 47, 'N')], 'Birmingham, Ala.': [(33, 30, 'W'), (86, 50, 'N')], 'Bismarck, N.D.': [(46, 48, 'W'), (100, 47, 'N')], 'Boise, Idaho': [(43, 36, 'W'), (116, 13, 'N')], 'Boston, Mass.': [(42, 21, 'W'), (71, 5, 'N')], 'Buffalo, N.Y.': [(42, 55, 'W'), (78, 50, 'N')], 'Calgary, Alba., Can.': [(51, 1, 'W'), (114, 1, 'N')], 'Carlsbad, N.M.': [(32, 26, 'W'), (104, 15, 'N')], 'Charleston, S.C.': [(32, 47, 'W'), (79, 56, 'N')], 'Charleston, W. Va.': [(38, 21, 'W'), (81, 38, 'N')], 'Charlotte, N.C.': [(35, 14, 'W'), (80, 50, 'N')], 'Cheyenne, Wyo.': [(41, 9, 'W'), (104, 52, 'N')], 'Chicago, Ill.': [(41, 50, 'W'), (87, 37, 'N')], 'Cincinnati, Ohio': [(39, 8, 'W'), (84, 30, 'N')], 'Cleveland, Ohio': [(41, 28, 'W'), (81, 37, 'N')], 'Columbia, S.C.': [(34, 0, 'W'), (81, 2, 'N')], 'Columbus, Ohio': [(40, 0, 'W'), (83, 1, 'N')], 'Dallas, Tex.': [(32, 46, 'W'), (96, 46, 'N')], 'Denver, Colo.': [(39, 45, 'W'), (105, 0, 'N')], 'Des Moines, Iowa': [(41, 35, 'W'), (93, 37, 'N')], 'Detroit, Mich.': [(42, 20, 'W'), (83, 3, 'N')], 'Dubuque, Iowa': [(42, 31, 'W'), (90, 40, 'N')], 'Duluth, Minn.': [(46, 49, 'W'), (92, 5, 'N')], 'Eastport, Maine': [(44, 54, 'W'), (67, 0, 'N')], 'Edmonton, Alb., Can.': [(53, 34, 'W'), (113, 28, 'N')], 'El Centro, Calif.': [(32, 38, 'W'), (115, 33, 'N')], 'El Paso, Tex.': [(31, 46, 'W'), (106, 29, 'N')], 'Eugene, Ore.': [(44, 3, 'W'), (123, 5, 'N')], 'Fargo, N.D.': [(46, 52, 'W'), (96, 48, 'N')], 'Flagstaff, Ariz.': [(35, 13, 'W'), (111, 41, 'N')], 'Fort Worth, Tex.': [(32, 43, 'W'), (97, 19, 'N')], 'Fresno, Calif.': [(36, 44, 'W'), (119, 48, 'N')], 'Grand Junction, Colo.': [(39, 5, 'W'), (108, 33, 'N')], 'Grand Rapids, Mich.': [(42, 58, 'W'), (85, 40, 'N')], 'Havre, Mont.': [(48, 33, 'W'), (109, 43, 'N')], 'Helena, Mont.': [(46, 35, 'W'), (112, 2, 'N')], 'Honolulu, Hawaii': [(21, 18, 'W'), (157, 50, 'N')], 'Hot Springs, Ark.': [(34, 31, 'W'), (93, 3, 'N')], 'Houston, Tex.': [(29, 45, 'W'), (95, 21, 'N')], 'Idaho Falls, Idaho': [(43, 30, 'W'), (112, 1, 'N')], 'Indianapolis, Ind.': [(39, 46, 'W'), (86, 10, 'N')], 'Jackson, Miss.': [(32, 20, 'W'), (90, 12, 'N')], 'Jacksonville, Fla.': [(30, 22, 'W'), (81, 40, 'N')], 'Juneau, Alaska': [(58, 18, 'W'), (134, 24, 'N')], 'Kansas City, Mo.': [(39, 6, 'W'), (94, 35, 'N')], 'Key West, Fla.': [(24, 33, 'W'), (81, 48, 'N')], 'Kingston, Ont., Can.': [(44, 15, 'W'), (76, 30, 'N')], 'Klamath Falls, Ore.': [(42, 10, 'W'), (121, 44, 'N')], 'Knoxville, Tenn.': [(35, 57, 'W'), (83, 56, 'N')], 'Las Vegas, Nev.': [(36, 10, 'W'), (115, 12, 'N')], 'Lewiston, Idaho': [(46, 24, 'W'), (117, 2, 'N')], 'Lincoln, Neb.': [(40, 50, 'W'), (96, 40, 'N')], 'London, Ont., Can.': [(43, 2, 'W'), (81, 34, 'N')], 'Long Beach, Calif.': [(33, 46, 'W'), (118, 11, 'N')], 'Los Angeles, Calif.': [(34, 3, 'W'), (118, 15, 'N')], 'Louisville, Ky.': [(38, 15, 'W'), (85, 46, 'N')], 'Manchester, N.H.': [(43, 0, 'W'), (71, 30, 'N')], 'Memphis, Tenn.': [(35, 9, 'W'), (90, 3, 'N')], 'Miami, Fla.': [(25, 46, 'W'), (80, 12, 'N')], 'Milwaukee, Wis.': [(43, 2, 'W'), (87, 55, 'N')], 'Minneapolis, Minn.': [(44, 59, 'W'), (93, 14, 'N')], 'Mobile, Ala.': [(30, 42, 'W'), (88, 3, 'N')], 'Montgomery, Ala.': [(32, 21, 'W'), (86, 18, 'N')], 'Montpelier, Vt.': [(44, 15, 'W'), (72, 32, 'N')], 'Montreal, Que., Can.': [(45, 30, 'W'), (73, 35, 'N')], 'Moose Jaw, Sask., Can.': [(50, 37, 'W'), (105, 31, 'N')], 'Nashville, Tenn.': [(36, 10, 'W'), (86, 47, 'N')], 'Nelson, B.C., Can.': [(49, 30, 'W'), (117, 17, 'N')], 'New Haven, Conn.': [(41, 19, 'W'), (72, 55, 'N')], 'New Orleans, La.': [(29, 57, 'W'), (90, 4, 'N')], 'New York, N.Y.': [(40, 47, 'W'), (73, 58, 'N')], 'Newark, N.J.': [(40, 44, 'W'), (74, 10, 'N')], 'Nome, Alaska': [(64, 25, 'W'), (165, 30, 'N')], 'Oakland, Calif.': [(37, 48, 'W'), (122, 16, 'N')], 'Oklahoma City, Okla.': [(35, 26, 'W'), (97, 28, 'N')], 'Omaha, Neb.': [(41, 15, 'W'), (95, 56, 'N')], 'Ottawa, Ont., Can.': [(45, 24, 'W'), (75, 43, 'N')], 'Philadelphia, Pa.': [(39, 57, 'W'), (75, 10, 'N')], 'Phoenix, Ariz.': [(33, 29, 'W'), (112, 4, 'N')], 'Pierre, S.D.': [(44, 22, 'W'), (100, 21, 'N')], 'Pittsburgh, Pa.': [(40, 27, 'W'), (79, 57, 'N')], 'Portland, Maine': [(43, 40, 'W'), (70, 15, 'N')], 'Portland, Ore.': [(45, 31, 'W'), (122, 41, 'N')], 'Providence, R.I.': [(41, 50, 'W'), (71, 24, 'N')], 'Quebec, Que., Can.': [(46, 49, 'W'), (71, 11, 'N')], 'Raleigh, N.C.': [(35, 46, 'W'), (78, 39, 'N')], 'Reno, Nev.': [(39, 30, 'W'), (119, 49, 'N')], 'Richfield, Utah': [(38, 46, 'W'), (112, 5, 'N')], 'Richmond, Va.': [(37, 33, 'W'), (77, 29, 'N')], 'Roanoke, Va.': [(37, 17, 'W'), (79, 57, 'N')], 'Sacramento, Calif.': [(38, 35, 'W'), (121, 30, 'N')], 'Salt Lake City, Utah': [(40, 46, 'W'), (111, 54, 'N')], 'San Antonio, Tex.': [(29, 23, 'W'), (98, 33, 'N')], 'San Diego, Calif.': [(32, 42, 'W'), (117, 10, 'N')], 'San Francisco, Calif.': [(37, 47, 'W'), (122, 26, 'N')], 'San Jose, Calif.': [(37, 20, 'W'), (121, 53, 'N')], 'San Juan, P.R.': [(18, 30, 'W'), (66, 10, 'N')], 'Santa Fe, N.M.': [(35, 41, 'W'), (105, 57, 'N')], 'Savannah, Ga.': [(32, 5, 'W'), (81, 5, 'N')], 'Seattle, Wash.': [(47, 37, 'W'), (122, 20, 'N')], 'Shreveport, La.': [(32, 28, 'W'), (93, 42, 'N')], 'Sioux Falls, S.D.': [(43, 33, 'W'), (96, 44, 'N')], 'Sitka, Alaska': [(57, 10, 'W'), (135, 15, 'N')], 'Spokane, Wash.': [(47, 40, 'W'), (117, 26, 'N')], 'Springfield, Ill.': [(39, 48, 'W'), (89, 38, 'N')], 'Springfield, Mass.': [(42, 6, 'W'), (72, 34, 'N')], 'Springfield, Mo.': [(37, 13, 'W'), (93, 17, 'N')], 'St. John, N.B., Can.': [(45, 18, 'W'), (66, 10, 'N')], 'St. Louis, Mo.': [(38, 35, 'W'), (90, 12, 'N')], 'Syracuse, N.Y.': [(43, 2, 'W'), (76, 8, 'N')], 'Tampa, Fla.': [(27, 57, 'W'), (82, 27, 'N')], 'Toledo, Ohio': [(41, 39, 'W'), (83, 33, 'N')], 'Toronto, Ont., Can.': [(43, 40, 'W'), (79, 24, 'N')], 'Tulsa, Okla.': [(36, 9, 'W'), (95, 59, 'N')], 'Vancouver, B.C., Can.': [(49, 13, 'W'), (123, 6, 'N')], 'Victoria, B.C., Can.': [(48, 25, 'W'), (123, 21, 'N')], 'Virginia Beach, Va.': [(36, 51, 'W'), (75, 58, 'N')], 'Washington, D.C.': [(38, 53, 'W'), (77, 2, 'N')], 'Wichita, Kan.': [(37, 43, 'W'), (97, 17, 'N')], 'Wilmington, N.C.': [(34, 14, 'W'), (77, 57, 'N')], 'Winnipeg, Man., Can.': [(49, 54, 'W'), (97, 7, 'N')]} def rads(degs, mins, compass): r = radians(degs + (mins/60.0)) if compass in ['S','W']: r = -r return r def distance(lat1, lon1, lat2, lon2, r): return acos( cos(lat1)*cos(lon1) * cos(lat2)*cos(lon2) + \ cos(lat1)*sin(lon1) * cos(lat2)*sin(lon2) + \ sin(lat1)*sin(lat2) ) * r def getmiles(citya, cityb): lat1, lon1 = rads(*citya[0]), rads(*citya[1]) lat2, lon2 = rads(*cityb[0]), rads(*cityb[1]) return distance(lat1, lon1, lat2, lon2, 3963.1)

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Re: [Edu-sig] Python as Application
by Arthur 01 Nov '05

01 Nov '05

> -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 12:07 PM > To: 'Arthur'; edu-sig(a)python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Python as Application > > "big issues". > > Scenario: > > Microsoft realizes IronPython has great potential for recruiting future > knowledge workers to the .NET development platform and launches an > advertising campaign to that effect, focusing on a few showcase high > schools > and colleges that have incorporated IronPython into their curricula, > thanks > to generous grants from Microsoft for teacher training at Microsoft > University. No. Absolutely not. Bad. Bad. Our schools are not "worker training" institutions. Never have been - overtly. They are educational institutions. Knowledge transfer of the kind that is appropriate to high school is by its nature more generic and general than then anything the .Net platform is about. We are in fundamental disagreement about what is and is not appropriate - and all we are doing is flushing out the fact that our disagreement is fundamental, rather than rhetorical. Except that you got $100 million to play with that "we" don't. "We" need to look for a way to disarm you - so as to be in a position to have a competition of ideas on the merits. And if that means going to find a way to get to the Feds, or the Teachers Union or the UN to kvetch about how the game is being played and why the game played in that way is not in anyone's interest - well I am expecting that is what things will come to in the next five years or so, unless enough people are successfully lulled into passivity by the "tsunami" argument - and reconcile themselves that tsunamis have become good. > Microsoft signs on as a major sponsor for Pycon2008. Google, I know, sponsored Alex Martelli's appearance at a Linux Users event this week in New York. Wonderful for Python, and wonderfully appropriate in any case. But I am a schoolmarm, when it comes to schools. The entire point of my relentless efforts to reach you is that what is appropriate in Industry and the Market Place is not what is appropriate in the context of education and schooling. And making great headway in my efforts to be convincing, I sense ;) Art

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Re: [Edu-sig] Python as Application
by Arthur 01 Nov '05

01 Nov '05

> -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 3:47 PM > To: 'Arthur'; edu-sig(a)python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Python as Application > I notice Google's share price is doing wonderfully of late. That company > has some serious capital. I can't say I understand the business model very well. But they seem to be spending their money wisely - on Python expertise ;). Alex's trip to NY - according to public information - was focused on recruiting for Google, as well as passing on some of his perspective on the Python object model. Worth mentioning here as it might help educators help their colleagues understand they are not leading the more practically minded astray in suggesting that Python has s real place in the curriculum. Google is clearly becoming a very major force, and, clearly, Python is part of their strategy. With these developments at Google, PyPy moving toward realization, Python being distributed with the Apple operating system, ubuntu becoming a major force as a Linux distribution - short Microsoft, go long on Python. Python on .Net I happen not to see as anything very significant - despite being a big fan of Jim Huginin's prior efforts (and suspecting that he is scary smart). Not surprised, for example, to find on a quick check that the IronPython mailing list is pretty quiet. I can see Python becoming an option on .Net, but would be surprised to see it become a real good option, except in limited circumstances. Which is more a reflection on .Net than on Python. Art

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Re: [Edu-sig] Python as Application
by Lee Harr 30 Oct '05

30 Oct '05

Wups. Sorry to those also reading tutor@. I always mix up these 2 lists. >My son is learning something about using a spreadsheet - extremely >useful and I support it 100%. That he thinks what he is learning is >Excel is absolutely unforgivable, in terms of my understanding of >ethical norms that once prevailed in an institute of higher education. > I guess it depends on whether that is what he was taught or if he was ever taught about alternatives. If this is an advanced class and was billed as "learn all the details about Excel" that's fine. If this is an introductory course I believe it should really start off with ... Excel is a spreadsheet. There are many spreadsheet applications available. All spreadsheets share these common traits .... >We understand that all the functionality he will ever need from Excel is >available for free in other spreadsheet software. > Probably. Anything beyond the common spreadsheet functions is almost certainly better done another way. >Do I care that he is within an institution that has lost its bearings on >fundamental matters of academic ethics. > Of course. More frightening to me than the ubiquitous use of MS Office is the omnipresence of windows. Every time a student sits down in front of KDE in our lab and says "Where is the internet?" I can only cringe. Microsoft may not own the internet, but that is not what we are teaching. I seriously get about 10% of users who are unable to see any other browser as performing the same function as internet explorer. If "what is a spreadsheet?" is pretty scary. "What is a browser?" is downright terrifying. >Do I care that I am made to feel that this point of view is somehow >radical on a educational forum that is an offshoot of an open source >software community. > Hmm... more like "preaching to the choir" isn't it? _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

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Simple IDE for Mac
by Winston Wolff 28 Oct '05

28 Oct '05

I read a while back some people asking about a good IDE for teaching Python. Well, I've written one and I'm offering it up to the public. It runs only on the Macintosh (OSX 10.3 and 10.4). It's basically got one window to write code, and another window to see the output, and a Run button. Since it's running regular python, you can do anything you would in a normal program so I used it with PyGame and it made a very compelling way to learn. http://stratolab.com/misc/makebot -Winston ______________________________________________________ winston wolff - (646) 827-2242 - http://www.stratolab.com learning by creating - video game courses for kids in new york

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Python as Application
by Arthur 27 Oct '05

27 Oct '05

A Python quote I liked by, I think, Michael Hudson was, (loose quote, I can't dig it up): "Python blurs the line between programming a computer, and using a computer". Relevant, as I realize that my approach to learning Python has been closer to learning a software application than the traditional approach to learning to program and learning a programming language. For better and worse, I guess. Probably because I learned a number of software applications - some complex - before I ever sat down to learn "to program". And in thinking back, I think what worked for me about Python - and why I found myself comfortable with it quickly - was that it seemed to respond to that approach. Treat it as an application and I am not doing anything I haven't done before - just learning a different kind of application. And maybe that's were I fell off the "Python is easy" bus - it's a relatively hard application to learn. But for me - at least - a hard application is easier to learn than an easy programming language ;) I focus on having a dialog with Python's behavior. And that is conducted mostly by throwing code at it, and then registering the result - until I zone in more and more finely on controlling the result by controlling the code I throw at it. effbot once accused me of not understanding Python because I said something that indicated I didn't understand duck typing - at least in the way he understands it should be understood. And my feeling was that to the extent I understand how Python behaves, given code as input, and if Python is behaving in a manner that is called duck typing - then I understand duck typing. I felt this is worth posting/ thinking about - because as it is, most folks have learned some relatively complex applications before ever thinking about programming. My son has, my wife has - personal frame of reference-wise. And it seems to me that if the approach to teaching Python was more toward Python as an application, than as a "programming language", better results might be achievable for a wider range of people. FWIW. Art

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Fwd: Python as Application
by Lloyd Hugh Allen 27 Oct '05

27 Oct '05

Oops --- forgot to reply-to-all ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Lloyd Hugh Allen <chandrakirti(a)gmail.com> Date: Oct 26, 2005 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Python as Application To: Arthur <ajsiegel(a)optonline.net> On 10/26/05, Arthur <ajsiegel(a)optonline.net> wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lloyd Hugh Allen [mailto:chandrakirti@gmail.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 6:15 AM > > To: Arthur > > Cc: Chuck Allison; edu-sig(a)python.org > > Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Python as Application > > > > > > I find Excel (or the TI-83, or other spreadsheet tool) to be a decent > > planning tool, and then once the project exceeds Excel's capabilities, > > I turn it into a relational database in Python. > > I appreciate Excel in one respect. You recognize when a project exceeds > Excel's capabilities, and have a "next step". Most folks - in the real > business world (at least in the world of midsize and small business), don't. > I am quite convinced I can go into 90% of the businesses out there, and > improve processes, efficiencies, and organizational dynamics by analyzing > how Excel is being used, and replace it with more appropriate technology. > That's in fact largely how I make my living. ... > I would be quite interested in hearing about your path from Excel to > relational database with Python. Can you describe your toolset more > completely. The guidance departments for the school district in which I teach use a proprietary, specially written database from the '80s or so in order to keep track of student records (names, addresses, schedules, etc.). The county's official policy is that all computers should be running WinXP, but ironically, this database runs on computers with a maximum of Win2k because too much DOS has fallen out of XP. This database program has lots of capabilities, but it is difficult to set up custom reports for it. It is easy, though, to get the database to toss out nine huge fixed-width text files with such things as the course name for each course number, the students' id and name, the students' id and each course number and section that they are enrolled in, etc. I set up an object-oriented database which links the students, the classes in which they are enrolled, the rooms in which the classes are held, and the teachers who teach the classes. This allows me to generate such custom reports as how many students each room and each teacher will have, say, when the seniors are gone; or on days when all of the students enrolled in biology will be taking the state biology assessment. The latter is important because if the biology test is going on, it's helpful to lump the classes that have three or four student NOT enrolled in biology together so that only one teacher has to babysit them for the duration of the test administration. As a side benefit, my program is able to export the students' schedules and contact information into Palmpilot format, so that the assistant principals can ensure that students in the halls are being truthful when they say that they are in the vicinity of their third-floor social studies class, and so that they can have the student's parent's name and phone number at hand when it turns out that the student was less truthful. To be fair, my work is derivative of another district employee's work in perl intended only to do that stuff from the last paragraph. I can't read perl, especially someone else's perl, so I looked at a few lines of sample output, at each of the input files, and then sat down and wrote 1500 lines of code (adding a feature here or there periodically). It's probably close to time to sit down, start from scratch, and write 900 lines of code to do the same thing. As a side note, I generally have to take the text file output from my program and import it into Excel before anyone else in the building can use it...I mean, csv is nice and all, but tabbed worksheets can be really handy for keeping related items together.

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python versus __python__
by Arthur 26 Oct '05

26 Oct '05

Kirby - >PS: since you've been studying subclassing primitive types using __new__, >maybe you could show us a user-defined floating point type that reports two >numbers equal if their absolute value difference is less than e. Anyone? My studies on the subject of subclassing the complex type have been quickly abandoned - it becoming clear that the fact the .real and .imag are read-only defeats the ideas I had for it. I guess I might have tried harder to see if one could override that behavior in a subclass, but my decision to move on is based on the fact that if what I like to think I am pursuing is simplicity, changing the fundamental behavior of a built-in, even if doable, would not seem to be a path to it. But as these dead-end explorations usually do, got me thinking about things not previously confronted. Like the simple question of what is "float" fundamentally, a function - as in float(1) - or a numeric type. And by subclassing "float", is one subclassing a function or a type. Is just some shadowing of a name going on in the netherworld, or are the function and type more intimately related in that realm? Us non C programmers look forward to PyPy for the view of the netherworld it will give us. In truth I expect PyPy to bring a new burst of creative energy to the Python world, just by opening up the possibility of lower level exploration to a wider group of folks. As the answer to most of the "why Python" questions that we all try to answer on some technical level, in the end - IMO - boil done to largely that, the creative energy surrounding it. Perhaps that understanding should provoke me into whining less about the moving target that Python seems sometimes to be. Perhaps Guido understands either consciously or intuitively that less openness to change - with all the downsides of such change - would subvert that essential energy aura in which Python persists. Art

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python versus __python__
by Kirby Urner 24 Oct '05

24 Oct '05

Going into my new presentation manager materials (perhaps using the same Pygame engine I used at OSCON, but as a general purpose module, i.e. not tied up in that specific content) is the distinction between two kinds of Python: Python and __Python__. You really get to a new level with Python when you start using its underunder. And that occurs, for many, right when they define a first class (or user type): in the form of __init__. __new__ comes even later (a paradox). Another fissure defining beginner and advanced: operator overloading. That's how it was in C++ books: we'll get to that later. Considered an advanced feature, not even featured in the original Java from Sun. So a logical course progression might involve doing a lot of non-underunder stuff at first, exploring but without much introspecting. Because as soon as you introspect, ala dir(1), you're into underunder land, and that takes advanced thinking to negotiate.[1] Now, just saying there're these two levels isn't to say we can't be up front about their being there. I'll tell a class we're tackling Python in two goes, saving __python__ for Part 2. I look at Wittgenstein's PI the same way. Part 2 is more subtle, and you get more power. You get to redefine what you mean by + and *. Wow. Snake charmers enter here. Now there's another way Python gets advanced, which is less about getting more deeply into Python, and more about getting more deeply into something else, *using* Python. That's like when we import a module giving us a wrap of some external game engine, wherein to construct simulations and so on ala that project to teach Arabic to soldiers at West Point -- a demo at Pycon 2005 in DC. So you have different ways of advancing in Python: into the language more deeply, to mastery of underunder, metaclasses and beyond; and into foreign territory, but with Python as your guidebook and phrase book, giving you confidence amidst all these alien-seeming APIs. I suppose poking around under the hood, looking at the C or whatever's puppeting the Python interpreter, is yet a third direction in which to advance. You'll see how underunder is implemented under the hood. But it won't be in Python per se, but in Python byte code on a VM (Python-the-agile skins many a system language -- including in cell phones). Kirby [1] IDLE 1.1 >>> dir(1) ['__abs__', '__add__', '__and__', '__class__', '__cmp__', '__coerce__', '__delattr__', '__div__', '__divmod__', '__doc__', '__float__', '__floordiv__', '__getattribute__', '__getnewargs__', '__hash__', '__hex__', '__init__', '__int__', '__invert__', '__long__', '__lshift__', '__mod__', '__mul__', '__neg__', '__new__', '__nonzero__', '__oct__', '__or__', '__pos__', '__pow__', '__radd__', '__rand__', '__rdiv__', '__rdivmod__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__rfloordiv__', '__rlshift__', '__rmod__', '__rmul__', '__ror__', '__rpow__', '__rrshift__', '__rshift__', '__rsub__', '__rtruediv__', '__rxor__', '__setattr__', '__str__', '__sub__', '__truediv__', '__xor__']

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Re: [Edu-sig] Why choose Python (subtitled: the lure of the tool)
by David Boddie 21 Oct '05

21 Oct '05

On Thu Oct 20 18:23:28, Peter Bowyer wrote: [IDE features] > I really appreciate having an inspector window to show me the values > of variables, either all of them or ones I've asked it specifically > to watch. This saves me from having to put in print statements or > (at the interactive shell) to keep typing the variable names to see > what happened after the last equation was executed. > > I'll think about the rest, there have been other things. I like an > integrated searchable manual for a number of reasons. It would be good to have a decent general IDE to use as a platform on which to add more specialized features. I imagine that most IDEs have some kind of plugin architecture to allow this. > > http://rlabplus.sourceforge.net/ > > There seem to be a lot of these around, Scilab and Octave just to > mention two others. This always annoyed us, as one professor would > make us use Scilab while another used a very old version of Matlab > (not teaching the syntax for either). It's one reason I support a > one tool fits all situation. Yes, it may be difficult to justify choosing any given Matlab-like environment over the others. > >In an ideal world, I'd have used an ODE solver from Python. > > How about scipy.integrate.odeint :) That would probably have done the trick, but I can't remember if that was available at the time. David

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