Mailman 3 May 2005 - Edu-sig

Re: Networking in DOSEMU
by Lee Harr 24 Jul '05

24 Jul '05

>I want to ask something not concerning python. Here, you give yourself an excellent hint that this is the wrong place to ask this question. >actualy i want to know how can i connect to my novel server thru dosemu. Here, I am wondering if you mean Novell. Searching is facilitated by correct spelling of the thing you seek. Let's take a look... http://www.google.com/search?q=dosemu+mailing+list Strangely, not the first hit on google, but the 3rd hit looks pretty good: http://dosemu.sourceforge.net/mailinglist.html good luck! _________________________________________________________________ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.com/

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Re: [Edu-sig] Edu-sig Digest, Vol 22, Issue 26
by Toby Donaldson 26 Jun '05

26 Jun '05

On 5/26/05 7:32 PM, "edu-sig-request(a)python.org" <edu-sig-request(a)python.org> wrote: >> It is fine and good to learn a single language, but this is not >> computer science. A single language is just a tool. It is necessary to >> learn several languages in order to have an idea of what computer >> science actually means. > > I believe that introductory computer science should be taught with more > than one language. Certainly, teaching several languages poses its own > problems. I believe two languages are just right for CS1/2 courses. My > personal choice has been Python for CS1 and Java for CS2. In this way, > students get familiar with the two principal programming language > cultures: interpreted languages and compiled languages. My experience > shows that students learn Java easier after having been acquainted with > Python. Also, teaching CS1 with Python and then CS2 with Java allows one > to cover more concepts (than by using only Java for both CS1 and CS2) > namely because the two languages are so different. I've been involved with teaching CS1/CS2 style courses for the last couple of years where Python is used in the first course, and Java in the second. It's a good combination. Simple Python programs are usually much easier to read and simpler to write than simple Java programs, and so students new to programming really like it. Interestingly, some of the students who have programmed before sometimes complained that Python was just a toy scripting language, and why weren't we teaching them C++ (because that what video games are written in, don't you know). Python's clean syntax is also good as a pseudo-code; I use it all the time now in other courses that don't use Python as the implementation language. The Python interpreter is another big pedagogical plus. The interpreter makes it easy to play with Python and get immediate feedback. It also naturally encourages an incremental and modular programming style. (I don't think the compiled/interpreted distinction is that big a deal. Both Python and Java blur that distinction. The speed and ease of feedback seems to have a bigger impact on beginners.) Seeing all the basic ideas of programming in a friendlier and easier environment surely helps when it comes to learning Java. It makes dealing with Java's OO overhead and relative prolixity more palatable. On the down side, the Python IDEs I've seen are nowhere near as good as the Java IDEs such as Eclipse or IDEA. This is no problem for Catholic coders who dislike IDEs, and it is less of problem for Python because of its good syntax, but an IDE that supports refactoring and incremental compiling sure would be nice. Toby -- Dr. Toby Donaldson School of Computing Science Simon Fraser University

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Lisping
by Arthur 11 Jun '05

11 Jun '05

Got through the first few chapters of "Practical Common Lisp". Whether I end up liking Lisp remains to be seen, but I have seen enough already to begin to appreciate Lisp. And have more confidence that my instincts where sensible - taking this detour as a way of getting to the next stage as a Python programmer. And the experience, so far, also reinforces my instincts about Python - as a learning language. With little other than some Python under my belt, I can make my way through the Lisp presentation feeling prepared and competent. So in my case, Python has been foundation for exploring first Java - and getting far enough into it that I felt I understood its fundamentals, and that I could become competent in it should I choose (and chose not to) - and now Lisp. I would think that the fact that Python has provided a foundation that could take me in each of these directions says a lot its utility as a learning language. I just wish, as always, we could disassociate "learning language" from the notion of "easy". I wouldn't expect an effort that provides the foundation for learning of approaches to programming as diverse as Java and Lisp to be easy. My sense is that in some important senses learning Java is easier than learning Python. But at the end of it I also suspect that one is a Java programmer - and little else. Which is why it is not a particularly good learning language. Art

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Programming Exercises
by Chuck Allison 10 Jun '05

10 Jun '05

Hello edu-sig, Does anyone know of a good source of programming exercises/projects to use when teaching Python to people who already know another language? Solutions don't need to be available - I just need some good sample programming assignments. Thanks. -- Best regards, -- Chuck Allison

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UPDATE 2: High School Network Security
by Frank Noschese 09 Jun '05

09 Jun '05

Hello again, I was able to make a Movable Python CD that includes Idle and the VPython, Numerical, and numarray packages. It runs right off the CD, no installation necessary. Doesn't work well with the Citrix XP machines, but regular Novell XP and '98 machines are fine. The students can still save their work to their network H:/ drive, but Python can't run unless the CD is in the drive. Everything on the network stays intact! It was very easy to do...I can post instructions if anyone is interested. Thanks again so much for all your help! I replied to the tech coodinator with some of your responses...they will reconsider the installation at their next meeting (but I did unfortunately ruffle a few feathers). Frank Noschese John Jay High School Cross River, NY

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Re: [Edu-sig] Edu-sig Digest, Vol 22, Issue 26
by Lee Harr 28 May '05

28 May '05

>The fact that CS students might resist Python on the basis of an impression >that it is a "toy scripting language" surprises me not in the least. > >Of course that is a mis-impression. > >But one that has only been exasperated by an initiatives like CP4E. > >Perhaps Python would be better thought of more like Lisp had been - as >something that a CS student *should* know. Because of its depth, but its >ease. > When I say that "python is easy" I don't mean it like "falling down is easy". It is more like "a nail gun is easy". Compared to pounding nails in with a hammer, a nail gun is much faster and much better. That does not mean that you can use it everywhere, and it certainly does not mean you can use it without some training. _________________________________________________________________ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

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Re: [Edu-sig] Lisping
by Arthur 27 May '05

27 May '05

> -----Original Message----- > From: D. Hartley [mailto:denise.hartley@gmail.com] > Art, > > So Python was your foundation for exploring Java - Can I ask, by what > route? I began with Python, but lately have been exploring Jython as a > way to make use of Java libraries and so on while writing in Python > (with the option of eventually learning actual Java code--or not!), so > your post on the edu-sig list intrigued me. Well I also started into Java via Jython (it was JPython then - I always seem to be putting myself in the "old man" role but even if I were a younger man, I still feel like an "old man" of the Python community - I have been causing trouble in it for a decent number of years by now. But there are plenty of older men yet, within it - though most are younger than I.) I was particularly interested in getting at some of the 3d and GUI stuff available as Java libraries. One watershed for me was in exploring Java3d via Jython I ran into something that I couldn't get past, and by a fairly close analysis and boiling the issue down to its most basic manifestation I was able to conclude with some confidence that what I was running into was actually a bug in Jython, and was then able to report it to the Jython developers in a fairly concise manner. Probably the first time I was able to convince myself that I was at some level "getting it". Turns out that in the thousands of line of Jython code, somewhere a ">" should have been a ">=". *That* I would have never found. But was impressed that someone did, and the fact that that missing character manifested itself in the way that it did help teach me something else important about programming. But doing 3d stuff, I went further into Java so that I would be able to do directly in Java some of the more intensive stuff, and gain performance. One key learning project I undertook which taught me something of Java, more of Python, and a good deal about NumPy was a port I did of the Java3d javax matrix/vector library to Python and NumPy. I forgot why. Probably if I knew more I wouldn't have done it. But I certainly knew I was involved in a good learning experience, and was creating those kinds of experiences for myself as I could find them or think them up. Porting from and to Python and Java helped me better understand both, their similarities, and their differences. Good stuff. When VPython (a C++ library) came along a good deal of what I was doing with Jython and Java was mooted. What I was really looking for, or to create, in Jython and Java was in fact something amazingly like VPython. Though it never would have been as good as VPython. With VPython on the scene I have occasionally needed to try to get at least some idea of C++ so that I could understand that code to the extent I needed to. Which is the extent of my C++ expertise. I did accomplish something concrete. Found that "mag2" - the squared length of a VPython vector - was often being first calculated, and then the square root of mag2 was being exposed through the API to Python as "mag". And I often would be needing primarily its square - back to mag2, which was not exposed. So I did a patch that was accepted that exposed mag2 directly, and avoided taking its square root in C++ and squaring it in Python. But that's all a lot to try to fit on my tombstone. Art

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Python Workshop at Chapman University
by Shugarman, Arnold 27 May '05

27 May '05

Chapman University is conducting a summer workshop, "Teaching Introductory Computer Science: The Python Way" for computer science teachers who want an alternative to either purely commercial languages, such as Java or C++, or purely educational languages, such as Scheme, for introductory computer science courses. The instructor, Professor Atanas Radenski has successfully used Python in the first semester introductory computer science course and Java in the second semester at Chapman University with increased student interest and comprehension of programming principles. Professor Radenski has developed comprehensive online study packs to support his courses. The online study packs substantially reduce the instructor's work load in two ways. First, the online study packs offer a variety of detailed self-guided labs that most students can do by themselves, without any, or with very little, help from the instructor. Second, the online study packs support a self-evaluation honor system based on online quizzes and lab reports which considerably reduces the amount of tedious grading. The program is designed for high school computer science instructors. College and university faculty will also benefit from learning about this dual language approach to teaching introductory computer science. Prior knowledge of the Python language is not required. The workshop consists of a three-day program on the Chapman campus, August 10 - 12, 2005, and an on-line program of web study-packs that can be completed any time between August 13 - December 15, 2005. The on-line portion of the workshop will require about 20 to 30 hours to complete. Please see http://www.chapman.edu/wcls/MathCS/sWorkshop/Python/default.asp for complete details on the Python workshop and an on-line registration form. Or contact Arnold Shugarman (Shugarman(a)chapman.edu ) for more information. Arnold Shugarman Arnold L. Shugarman, Ph.D. Administrator, Integrated Circuit & Embedded System Design Department of Mathematics and Computer Science Beckman 403 Chapman University One University Drive Orange, CA 92866 714-744-7862 714-628-7340 (fax) 714-206-6136 (cell) shugarman(a)chapman.edu

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An somewhat stale article about using Java for introductory programming; what can we as Python educators learn from them?
by Danny Yoo 27 May '05

27 May '05

Hi everyone, [Warning: I guess I ramble and rant here a bit. My apologies!] I picked up an interesting (if outdated) article on the "Use of Java as an Introductory Programming Language": http://www.acm.org/crossroads/xrds4-4/introjava.html It's written in the 1990's, so some of the comments are not relevant, but a surprising number of them are still quite pointed. Here's the jist of the article: Georgia Institute of technology switched to Java for their courses because: 1. They were concerned that Pascal wasn't up to date with current programming practice. 2. Java provided OOP, garbage collection, and exceptions. 3. Java was more marketable. They ran into the following problems: 1. Input and output routines in Java were hideous. They got around this by providing their own library. 2. Java error messages weren't helpful. They rewrote the error messages themselves to suit their students. 3. Students found it easier to plagerize, given the popularity of the language. 4. Introductory books were scarce at the time. 5. The division between primitive types and the other data types was difficult to explain to new users. 6. There was a high initial overhead due to Java's scaffolding code. (public static void main(String[] args) { ... }) The authors argue, finally, that the particular programming language chosen really isn't a factor, but that: 1. Teaching good design (modularity, coupling, abstraction, etc.) 2. Showing iterative program construction in the classroom were really more important. This I agree with, and thought the mention of Eductional Software Process (ESP), to use industry best practices, sounded very relevant, much like the introduction of unit testing as an educational technique. Yet... I know I shouldn't think this, but the tone felt a little half-hearted, considering that the author had just finished describing the factors that they said hampered their student's understanding of the system. I just found it sad that the majority of the article focused on all the problems Georgia Tech instructors ran into, but then again, it's easier to point out failures than successes. A lot of the cons in the problem section above are points in favor for Python, but there are some things that Python could benefit from. In particular, I thought Problem 2, on customizing error messages to make erroneous situations easier to understand, was a very interesting one. As I understand it, many of Python's error messages are hardcoded into modules and binaries. Would it be worth it to allow for easy error message customization through some external file resource? Last of all, I took a look at Georgia Tech's CS 1321 web page, just out of curiosity, and came with: http://www.cc.gatech.edu/classes/AY2005/cs1321_spring/ So perhaps language matters after all. *cough cough*

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Re: [Edu-sig] Lisping
by Radenski, Atanas 26 May '05

26 May '05

> It is fine and good to learn a single language, but this is not > computer science. A single language is just a tool. It is necessary to > learn several languages in order to have an idea of what computer > science actually means. I believe that introductory computer science should be taught with more than one language. Certainly, teaching several languages poses its own problems. I believe two languages are just right for CS1/2 courses. My personal choice has been Python for CS1 and Java for CS2. In this way, students get familiar with the two principal programming language cultures: interpreted languages and compiled languages. My experience shows that students learn Java easier after having been acquainted with Python. Also, teaching CS1 with Python and then CS2 with Java allows one to cover more concepts (than by using only Java for both CS1 and CS2) namely because the two languages are so different. > Different languages have different > orientations, different tools, and different fundamental assumptions. > I would want my students (indeed, myself) to be able to solve a > problem/write a program satisfying particular criteria in ANY > appropriate language, and also to recognize which languages are > inappropriate for a given task. Prerequisite to this is knowledge and > use of more than one language. Very well said, indeed. It can hardly be said better than this. Atanas Radenski mailto:radenski@chapman.edu http://www.chapman.edu/~radenski/ Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably why so few engage in it -- Henry Ford

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