Mailman 3 December 2006 - Edu-sig

Python for Halloween
by kirby urner 21 Oct '07

21 Oct '07

Something about using 'ghost' in place of 'self' in a Shell class (allusion to anime as well). Maybe I did something like this last year (having deja vu again). But I'm realizing edu-sig is no longer a preferred venue for my curriculum writing. I'd rather huddle with MIT, Bruce Sherwood, Alan Kay and play *against* Arthur's team. Arthur, you make too many enemies too quickly and too easily. Even more, I'm into my Portland Knowledge Lab (PKL) business (gotta pay that rent today) and want to make lots of Python and Synergetics teaching cartoons for HDTV (my Saturday Morning meme), with lots of brand name sponsors. But here is not the place to brainstorm in safety. Too many prying eyes and self-appointed kibbitzers. So I'm actually resigning this time. Don't expect me back any time soon. Probably won't be tracking either, at least not with any frequency. For me, it's a tilt towards private lists and closed source development (not exclusively -- I'm still a big supporter of a strong public sector). I'm learning why open source is a bad idea sometimes. I've talked to Stallman about this, though he probably doesn't remember -- I was in his audience in Portland and asked about situations when "they" simply *don't deserve* your best code. But I think more it's a matter of not wanting to show unfinished work (a big no no in Fuller's self discipline, according to 'Critical Path' I think it was). Kirby

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Learning (some more) programming
by Arthur 10 Jan '07

10 Jan '07

Have dug in quite a bit to VPython's code, which has become an intensive C++ course for me. And have accomplished a good deal in keeping the project moving forward, healthy and on-track. I happen to be proud of that. 90% of the battle for this kind of intensive learning process always seems to be motivation. And I don't quite know how learning something like C++ might be approached in other than an intensive manner. What I find is that even on the issue of motivation, the dynamics are nonlinear. Just the right mix of curiosity, practical benefit, desire to contribute, desire for status and recognition, and, of course, spite ;) is what I happen to need to get focused at this level. One theme that seems to run through discussions here is related to this issue. Is it the educators' mission to find just the right motivational buttons and push them just right ??? Or rather focus on responding appropriately to those who come to the learning process with some critical mass level of motivation??? It seems to be one of the fault lines, in some of the discussions here. If one rejects possibility of the first approach - despite possibilities of computer/human symbiosis, the issue becomes easier. So for me, its easier. Art

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Pre-PEP was: The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
by Andre Roberge 07 Jan '07

07 Jan '07

Hi-all, Having had a look at the discussion on the Python-3000 mailing list, I thought it was appropriate to write a draft PEP with the intent of eventually posting it on the Python 3000 list for "serious" discussion/future decision. This proposal could most certainly be strengthened, and the wording improved by a native English speaker with stronger CS background than I have. I have attempted to follow the standard recommended format (including providing both a motivation and rationale ... which seemed a bit redundant and an artificial split...) Feel free to make comments for improvement and even take over the "ownership" of this PEP. André ========================================= PEP: XXX Title: Simple input built-in in Python 3000 Version: $Revision: 0.1 $ Last-Modified: $Date: 2006/09/13 20:00:00 $ Author: André Roberge <andre.roberge(a)gmail.com> Status: Draft Type: Standards Track Content-Type: text/x-rst Created: 13-Sep-2006 Python-Version: 3.0 Post-History: Abstract ======== Input and output are core features of computer programs. Currently, Python provides a simple means of output through the print keyword and two simple means of input throught the input() and raw_input() built-in functions. Python 3.0 will introduces various incompatible changes with previous Python versions[1]. Among the proposed changes, print will become a built-in function, print(), while input() and raw_input() would be removed completely from the built-in namespace, requiring importing some module to provide even the most basic input capability. This PEP proposes that Python 3.0 retains some simple user input capability, equivalent to raw_input(), within the built-in namespace. Motivation ========== With its easy readability and its support for many programming styles (e.g. procedural, object-oriented, etc.) among others, Python is perhaps the best computer language to use in introductory programming classes. Simple programs most often need to contain a means to provide information to a user (output) as well as obtaining information from that user (input). Any computer language intended to be used in an educational setting should provide straightforward methods for both input and output. The current proposals for Python 3.0 [1] include a simple output pathway via a built-in function named print(), but a more complicated method for input [e.g. via sys.stdin.readline()], one that requires importing an external module. Current versions of Python (pre-3.0) include raw_input() as a built-in function. With the availability of such a function, programs that require simple input/output can be written from day one, without requiring discussions of importing modules, streams, etc. Rationale ========= Current built-in functions, like input() and raw_input(), are found to be extremely useful in traditional teaching settings. (For more details, see the discussion that followed [3].) While the BDFL has clearly stated [3] that input() was not to be kept in Python 3000, he has also stated that he was not against revising the decision of killing raw_input(). raw_input() provides a simple mean to ask a question and obtain information from a user. The proposed plans for Python 3.0 would require the replacement of the single statement speed = raw_input("What is the average airspeed velocity of an unladed swallow?") by the more complicated import sys print("What is the average airspeed velocity of an unladed swallow?") speed = sys.stdin.readline() The removal of raw_input (or equivalent) would not significantly reduce the built-in namespace while it would steepen significantly the learning curve for beginners. Specification ============= The built-in input function should be totally equivalent to the existing raw_input() function. Open issues =========== With input() effectively removed from the language, the name raw_input() makes much less sense and alternatives should be considered. The various possibilities mentioned in various forums include: ask() ask_user() get_string() input() # rejected by Guido prompt() read() user_input() References ========== .. [1] Miscellaneous Python 3.0 Plans (http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3100/) ..[2] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000 (http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2006-September/006967.html) .. [3] educational aspects of Python 3000 http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2006-September/003589.html Copyright ========= This document has been placed in the public domain.

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OLPC and Pygame / Childsplay
by francois schnell 30 Dec '06

30 Dec '06

Hello, FYI, concerning "Python and education" I saw this on the 'OLPC commmunity-news' mailing list : """ 7. Python: Mamading Ceesay, who has been a long-time advocate of teaching Python to children, has offered to curate a collection of generative Python games. He intends to get Pygames and Childsplay to run on the laptops, and to help others produce tutorials using the games to show children how and why to program. """ source: http://mailman.laptop.org/pipermail/community-news/2006-December/000038.html http://childsplay.sourceforge.net/ Also this Blog talks about the OLPC laptop and what can run on it: http://www.olpcnews.com/ francois

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Jon Frum day
by ajsiegel＠optonline.net 28 Dec '06

28 Dec '06

http://www.smithsonianmagazine.com/issues/2006/february/john.php

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Re: [Edu-sig] Python & Smalltalk (was Re: OLPC related: pyGTK)
by Laura Creighton 22 Dec '06

22 Dec '06

Have you read 'Fumbling the Future'? http://www.amazon.com/Fumbling-Future-Invented-Personal-Computer/dp/1583482… I wouldn't call the work done at PARC as 'failed research projects'. On the contrary, they were extremely successful research projects, which was a large part of the problem. A good many people at Xerox did not want to become a successful computer company, and as soon as it became clear that this was something that was not a pipe dream, but something very realisable they worked very hard at making sure that this did not happen. Laura

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OLPC related: pyGTK for cross-platform (Mac especially)?
by Paul D. Fernhout 21 Dec '06

21 Dec '06

I'm still in a state of flux about where to go next after PataPata Phase I (recently discussed here). Assuming I continue with Python (rather than moving more towards Smalltalk, either Squeak or one for the JVM), what interests me most is working on cross-platform applications (Mac, PC, GNU/Linux). Fro cross-platform work, I prefer Jython & Swing over a Python plus widget set solution. This is because Swing is cross platform, Sun has announced plans to put lots of Java under the GPL, the JVM lets me ship very portable Java code alongside the Jython code if needed for performance, and we have already used Jython in cross-platform Mac, PC, GNU/Linux commercial projects with some success (we've only used Python + wxWidgets on PC and GNU/Linux, not Mac). However, for the areas I am interested in, especially educational simulations, being able to run on the One Laptop Per Child (OLPC) platform would be a nice motivating plus. However OLPC does not currently run Java. And with its resource constraints, the best choice for the OLPC is the mainline supported system, which is Python 2.4 (maybe later) and GTK+. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Python_Environment (Some variant of Squeak Smalltalk is another possibility too, as there is work on that.) http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Etoys Now, I don't *need* to support OLPC, and the JVM might run there someday, but I would say that is my biggest sticking point going forward with Jython/Swing if I stick with Python over Smalltalk. Our garden simulator especially is a natural match for the OLPC goals (and we have previously had people in various developing nations interested in it). So, I know I brought up this topic of PyGTK etc. before only about six months ago, but the computing landscape continues to change rapidly. So, what do people have to say now about using GTK+ (which the OLPC supports) for cross platform educational work these days, especially on the Mac and PC (since GNU/Linux support will be excellent)? Previously when I asked this there was a big groan from the Macintosh side of the Python educational community (at least from Brad Miller, see below). However, since then there is a continuing move for Aqua support for GTK. See: http://developer.imendio.com/projects/gtk-macosx "This is the project site for the effort to port Gtk+ 2 to Mac OS X natively (so that you can run Gtk+ applications without X11 on Mac OS X)." And from:: http://www.pygtk.org/ "PyGTK 2.10.0 includes the following new features: ... MacOS X support" Brad Miller had written back in June: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2006-June/006571.html "There is some work in GTK+ 2.9.x to get a native port of GTK working on the mac. Maybe when this effort is finally successful then native versions of vpython and other packages will be easier. .. But I also think that the effort required to get everything working under X11 would be too difficult for many beginners." So, is this still true six months later for shipping pyGTK based applications? Or should GTK now be considered a reasonable choice for applications to run under Mac and GNU/Linux? Anyone out there having easy success with pyGTK applications on the Macintosh? And if it works, is it still too bleeding edge to count on? As for Windows, it's long been working OK there as an easy install, right? Still, the installations I see seem to be separate packages, so it is not as easy as with wxWidgets, where I bundle the wxPython & wxWidgets libraries with the Windows application, right? So, I guess my general question is, is pyGTK now an acceptable choice for applications that want to run on Mac, PC, GNU/Linux and the OLPC project? And if it is not, perhaps because of the Mac, is it likely within, say, six months of being an easy install on the Mac? (Software takes a long time to write and debug, so that time frame is reasonable for cross-platform support.) For reference, my most recent google search: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/search?q=mac+pygtk&start=0&… turns up this comment: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/2ceb94… "GTK is being ported to Aqua, but the port it is in its early stages." And also: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/2ceb94… "GTK 2.8 uses an abstraction layer for drawing widgets called "Cairo". Cairo can use OpenGL or Quartz as backends (still experimental). Thus, you can get a hardware-accelerated GUI from PyGTK if you are willing to use an experimental backend in Cairo." In any case, moving forward, for me, in Python, I think the choices are down to Jython + Swing vs. Python + pyGTK (assuming I don't try to write code at a level of abstraction that make the system mostly widget independent :-). --Paul Fernhout

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Crunchy features!
by Johannes Woolard 18 Dec '06

18 Dec '06

Hi! I'm not sure how many of you remember me, I was that Summer of Code student working on Crunchy with André Roberge. Sadly I've been rather busy for the past few months and so haven't been able to participate much in Crunchy or the edu-sig. Anyways, I'm off to Germany in a couple of days to visit grandparents - and so will have far too much spare time to devote to Python coding and other such forms of enjoyment. I'll be there for 10 days and wanted to implement some worthwhile feature for Crunchy: The problem is, I can't decide what - so I though I would ask you guys what you want to see in there... I assume (from your responses on this list) that at least a few of you have tried Crunchy and have ideas for it's future development. A couple of people have suggested/endorsed the idea of having some way of centrally collating doctest results from a group of students and giving students a way to hand in work through crunchy. This would take the form of a seperate server that would simply receive doctest results from clients and spew out statistics. It would also enable markers to view code, created by studnts in crunchy, from a centralized repository - even after the students have logged off and gone home. That's one idea. Another idea is to create some kind of VLAM creator (VLAM is the markup used by Crunchy to embed interactive elements). This would simply find all the likely candidate elements in a given document and give the user a GUI method of converting them to VLAM. This would make the creation of new Crunchy tutorials even more trivial! Does anyone else have suggestions/votes on what I should implement? While I'm at it I might as well mention our new repository: Crunchy development is now hosted by Google Code Hosting at http://code.google.com/p/crunchy/ Someday I'll get round to adding some proper development docs to the wiki, but in the meantime if anyone would like to help develop Crunchy or create new material for it - then as always just ask André or myself what needs doing. Or just go ahead and write some cool feature and send it to us. yrs Johannes -- Johannes Woolard, Entz Rep, Oriel College, Oxford, 0X1 4EW mobile: +44 7847 679381

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automatically grading small programming assignments
by Brian Blais 14 Dec '06

14 Dec '06

Hello, I have a couple of classes where I teach introductory programming using Python. What I would love to have is for the students to go through a lot of very small programs, to learn the basic programming structure. Things like, return the maximum in a list, making lists with certain patterns, very simple string parsing, etc. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of time to grade such things by hand, so I would like to automate it as much as possible. I envision a number of possible solutions. In one solution, I provide a function template with a docstring, and they have to fill it in to past a doctest. Is there a good (and safe) way to do that online? Something like having a student post code, and the doctest returns. I'd love to allow them to submit until they get it, logging each attempt. Or perhaps there is a better way to do this sort of thing. How do others who teach Python handle this? thanks, Brian Blais -- ----------------- bblais(a)bryant.edu http://web.bryant.edu/~bblais

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A Call to Arms - Advocating Python in Education
by Jeff Rush 14 Dec '06

14 Dec '06

Greetings. I've just joined this list, to check out what is needed to support Python in the education community. I'm the Python Advocacy Coordinator that the PSF has hired to help out. My main jumping off point for advocacy topics is at: http://wiki.python.org/moin/Advocacy One of the items I'm hoping to get input about is the contents of three advocacy kits I'm getting together: - College Student's Python Advocacy Kit - University Educator's Python Advocacy Kit - K-12 Educator's Python Advocacy Kit Details at: http://wiki.python.org/moin/Advocacy#AdvocacyKits I'm drumming up a series of whitepapers, flyers, videos and podcasts to put into those kits. Not being an educator myself, I need ideas on what is needed. The actual individual items are being solicited at: http://wiki.python.org/moin/AdvocacyWritingTasks http://wiki.python.org/moin/ArticleIdeas. Next, we are seeking reusable/retargetable teaching materials, such as those under a Creative Commons license. We need slide presentations and class handouts. Now I know there are a great many slide presentations on the web about Python. I can google them all but we're not looking for just any presentation, we're looking for the best of field. We're collecting links and ideas at: http://wiki.python.org/moin/Advocacy#TeachingMaterials I know some of this already exists in the education community and I just need some nudges to come up to speed on what is available for me to make use of. Also permissions for reuse and reformatting, in some cases. Thanks for any assistance you have time to provide, Jeff Rush <advocate(a)python.org> Python Advocacy Coordinator

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