Mailman 3 August 2006 - Edu-sig

Re: [Edu-sig] An interactive version of "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist, Learning Python"
by Jeffrey Elkner Aug. 12, 2006

Aug. 12, 2006

Dear Johannes, I am *very* interested in a Crunchy Frog version of the book. I've been working on the 2nd edition this summer, and the latest version can be found here: http://ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCS/python.php I had asked a summer intern of ours, David Muffley (sunami.2600(a)gmail.com), to do just what you are offering, but it would be better if you could take the lead and he could provide you assistance if you need it. A few thoughts that may be of help: * the original source for the book is in lore, which is a subset of xhtml. If the VLAM required for Crunchy will pass through lore without complaint, and if it will do "the right thing" on a site that doesn't have Crunchy running, then we could include the VLAM in the main source of the book. * Nick Wheeler has been working on a debian package for Crunchy. I plan to have it running as a server process on our classroom LTSP server, and have it automagically work for students who access the book. I hope we can accomplish that. * In the long term, I was thinking that a Jython version of Crunchy would allow it to be used on-line. If you need any help with Lore, David Muffley said he would be available today. You could also contact me as a backup. Thanks! It is great to see all the progress being made getting tools together for using Python in education. The time since the last Pycon has been *very* active and successful. jeff On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:57:33 +0100, Johannes Woolard <johannes.wollard(a)gmail.com> wrote: >Dear Jeffrey, > >I am one of the Summer of Code students working with the Python >Software Foundation, specifically on educational software. I have been >working on Andre Roberge's Crunchy Frog >(http://www.crunchy.sourceforge.net/) and to finish off my summer's >work I would like to create an interactive version of How to Think >like a Computer Scientist. > >Creating interactive python tutorials with Crunchy is child's play - >it would involve giving all of the examples some form of interactive >element and inserting other interactive bits in the text where >appropriate. You can look at some examples of what I mean if you >download our current preview release from the sourceforge site. > >This would involve minimal changes to the text and content, but would >I believe make the book even more educational and helpful. > >What is your opinion on this? Would you be happy for me to take the >book and (I hope) develop it? > >yrs > >Johannes Woolard > >PS. I am CC'ing this to Andre Roberge, who is also working on crunchy frog. > >-- >Johannes Woolard, >Entz Rep, >Oriel College > >mobile: 07837880296 >

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Version 0.2.03 of PataPata released (adds Jython/Swing support)
by Paul D. Fernhout Aug. 12, 2006

Aug. 12, 2006

Version 0.2.03 of PataPata (a live Python object environment of Prototypes and Morphs) has been released. The zip file is at: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=165910 The big thing in this new version is support for Jython (2.2 only) using the Swing interfaces ans supporting essentially the same prototype-based API and widget dragging GUI as the TK version uses. The Inspector and Dandelion example world also work under Swing in this release (and needed only minor changes from the TK version). Read on for more details. == testing wanted Any "Smoke Test" level (e.g. does it run at all for you?) feedback on trying PataPata under Jython 2.2 on various Mac/Win/GNULinux configurations would be appreciated. You need to use a Jython 2.2 (not 2.1) version (sorry, PataPata save file source format uses "object" for metaclass support for loading files). Jython 2.2 can be downloaded and installed from links here: http://www.jython.org/Project/installation.html To run PataPata for Jython under GNU/Linux (assuming jythonRelease_2_2alpha1 is installed in your home directory), use: java -jar ~/jythonRelease_2_2alpha1/jython.jar PataPata.py I'm getting this out early so people can play with it. As the first Swing verison it is bound to have some issues. Still lots of rough edges and some cut corners (e.g. some missing events like enter/leave). A future version needs to integrate the swing and TK versions better so that user World files that are now "almost" the same will really be the same. == unique benefits to a Jython version It might be possible to add quicker prototype method dispatch lookup more easily to a Jython version as a patch on top of regular Jython as opposed to doing that under C. I'm not sure I'm up for it at the moment, but in theory with a little big of effort and wading through Sun's documentation (and ignoring some other potential deployment issues, e.g. "why we dropped Java web start" http://www.dynamicobjects.com/d2r/archives/002859.html ) one could in theory make a one click Web Start application with PataPata and Jython that would give you a live Python environment with a GUI builder and Inspector with (essentially) one click from a browser on any computer with Java Web Start enabled. That might be nice in some educational settings. No doubt WebStart will continue to improve as a delivery vehicle, just like I hope Sun's Java will be "open source" someday. == grungy work to be done Right now there is a lot of duplication of files between Swing and TK (havign similar WorldInspectorTK.py and WorldInspectorSwing.py files, etc.) Ideally, I want to refactor the system to have common files, general platform files, and unique platform files such as: WorldInspector.py, WorldDandelionGarden.py, WorldConversions.py, WorldExample.py, WorldEmpty.py using WorldCommon.py, which woudl import UtilitiesCommon.py, which would import one of: CrossPlatformWrappingOfTK.py, CrossPlatformWrappingOfSwing.py, CrossPlatformWrappingOfGTK.py, CrossPlatformWrappingOfWX.py World files could then also import: WorldOnlyForTK.py, WorldOnlyForSwing.py, WorldOnlyForGTK.py, WorldOnlyForWX.py making them platform dependent. Doable, but that looks like some slogging. :-( == future directions and a pause for reflection Perhaps the best news about this all shows that I can make progress using PataPata and any specific widget set it wraps and then later use the (almost) identical code on another platform with some effort to write support code for that platform. Of course, Python's anygui and even wxPython has already done that, but in a different way. :-) Still, I know that the more I stray from the basic widgets (Buttons, Labels, Lists) the more work that would be -- but it is likely fairly doable. On the other hand, a truly 3D GUI if I had one is not going to be easily portable to a 2D platform. This version also started a GLUT 3D version of the interface, but that just opens a window as a proof of concept (I like the 3D approach, but it looks like a lot of work). Anyway, the good news is, PataPata now supports the default GUI for the Python and Jython releases. That means people could write some simple educational software that run on both platforms using (near) identical code. I don't think I'll venture into IronPython dot net support any time soon to cover all the major Python bases (I've never used IronPython and don't want to learn it right now). I'm not sure where to go from here on GUIs as I've gotten more interested in the "One Laptop per Child" project http://laptop.org/ and they are using Python and GTK. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/GTK From there: "GTK+ is the basic GUI toolkit used by Sugar and other OLPC applications. Any application that needs a GUI consisting of standard Windows, Icons, Menus and Pointers should use GTK+. The OLPC include the PyGTK Module to simplify the task of building Python applications. " Clearly WX or Swing or TK or GLUT have more general interest. Still, I'm tempted to move in a GTK direction for the reasons both of the OLPC project and also because GTK might be a nice solution for previous reasons mentioned on the edusig list (though at a cost of initial install issues on Mac and Windows). On the other hand, after doing even more coding in Python, I'm really missing even more all the Smalltalk development tools, a situation which PataPata hopes to improve a little, of course, at some continued effort which looks somewhat boring/daunting at this point. :-) Venting a little, there is also not much one can do about the fact that the Smalltalk syntax and message passing approach (to me) is clearer for prototype based systems than Python's parenthetical functional notation. This is because in Smalltalk or Self, "self x" to get and "self x:" to set are clearly messages and not possibly variable accesses, unlike Python's "self.x", "self.x = value", "self.x()", "self.x(value)" permutations adding possibility for confusion (i.e. should self.x to get a property value be used with equals or as a function call?). Still, when I contemplate other systems for a PataPata base which meet my licensing interests and have an underlying simplicity, like GNU Smalltalk http://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/ or the io language http://www.iolanguage.com/about/ or Parrot http://www.parrotcode.org/ or Prometheus on bigloo, PLT, or another Scheme: http://www.forcix.cx/software/prometheus/prometheus.html http://www-sop.inria.fr/mimosa/fp/Bigloo/ http://www.plt-scheme.org/ or others, I have to admit Python is more ubiquitous and so makes for an easier and more reliable PataPata install with a bigger community. Python has never let me down for a variety opf projects and refining those Python skills have also had commercial value (for me). I have written most of a Smalltalk grammar for ANTLR (some bugs), and there is already Bistro Smalltalk for Java, so that is another possible direction too (perhaps using some Jython technology). And, even Squeak is now in a position to fight its way back starting again from 1.1 with a new "open source" license too, so we will see how that goes (though, as Alan Kay, said almost ten years back, Squeak was just hopefully a stepping stone to something better). I'm still left wanting simple prototypes with a Self-like syntax on a modern well supported cross-platform runtime (but not Self itself, as I find that too complex in apporach :-). Continuing PataPata with Python can still realize something good but at a cost of (IMHO) a weaker and more complex syntax, some extra complexity, and a bit of a performance hit (but potentially more interest to users). Of course, if nobody really sees the value in it, then focusing with something more Smalltalk syntax (even on top of Python) may make more sense for me personally. Still, PataPata 0.2.02 is up to 47 downloads from SourceForge, so there is some interest there. Alex J. Champandard wrote to me (after seeing the ShowMeDo video by Francois) about a similar project he started a couple months ago (great minds think alike!) which focuses more on 3D issues, available here: http://alive.sourceforge.net/ so integrating PataPata somehow with his work is another possibility. So anyway, since my trip, I've been moving into a period of further reflection on what my goals are at this point, but I still wanted to get this Jython/Swing version finished enough to release in any case. Basically I'm one person working on this with very limited time, and I think I have successfully proved the concept that you can have Morphs and Prototypes under Python and in a somewhat Pythonic-way (if there was indeed any doubt). Now I have to think about where to go next, whether to continue on the pink plane Python/Squeak merger roadmap I outlined on edusig a while back, (*) http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2006-April/006226.html or whether to move into the blue plane (again) (**) with other approaches to software environments for learning. The biggest thing driving me right now is having several educational applications I want to port from Delphi, so I'll make some sort of decision one way or another, even if just deciding plain Jython or Python without prototypes is easier. :-) --Paul Fernhout (*) Separately I've also considered some of the network debugging issues I've outlined there as well, but decided to hold off on them as a priority for security issues, but that could also be a big next step for PataPata. (**) Definition of Alan Kay's pink and blue planes and comments on tensions from them for developers (an interesting read for anyone on a development oriented mailing list. :-): http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2003-February/052648…

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Teaching programming to physics students - reprise
by Peter Bowyer Aug. 10, 2006

Aug. 10, 2006

Hi, For all of you who were interested, I've put the final version of my Masters' project report online at http://peter.mapledesign.co.uk/writings/physics/teaching-introductory-progr…. The project has proved successful, as the school of Physics at the University of Southampton made the decision to use Python for all undergraduate physics courses using programming in the 2006/07 academic year (introductory programming course, equipment control in laboratories, and computational physics course). As yet it remains to be seen whether the approach used to teach programming will change, or just the language used. I will be returning on a voluntary basis in October to assist in the teaching laboratories and monitor the impact changing to Python has had on the understanding of the students. Any suggestions as to how to measure their understanding would be gratefully received, as the questionnaire I used last time didn't get very good responses! I'd like to thank this group for your input last year, and particularly to Bruce Sherin and Hans Fangohr for their extended emails over the year. Peter. -- Maple Design - quality web design and programming http://www.mapledesign.co.uk

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[Video-MIT] Mitchel Resnick on "creative education" with computers / technologies
by francois schnell Aug. 10, 2006

Aug. 10, 2006

The Video (30 mn presentation, 30 mn questions): http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/372/ There's also a short demo of Scratch in the video (a Lego-like visual programming language for kids): http://llk.media.mit.edu/projects.php?id=783 francois

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Version 0.2.03 of PataPata released (adds Jython/Swing support)
by Tony Theodore Aug. 8, 2006

Aug. 8, 2006

>== testing wanted > >Any "Smoke Test" level (e.g. does it run at all for you?) feedback on >trying PataPata under Jython 2.2 on various Mac/Win/GNULinux Just downloaded and installed Jython 2.2, it starts up (very slowly) and mostly seems to work, however the xturtle doesn't work and there's significant lag in most actions. As a matter of interest python 2.3.5 and 2.5b2 both work very well, but 2.4.3 raises the indentation error reported earlier. I'm running WinXP SP2. Regards, Tony

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Daniel Sayre is out of the office.
by DSayre＠wiley.com Aug. 7, 2006

Aug. 7, 2006

I will be out of the office starting 08/07/2006 and will not return until 08/10/2006. I will have limited access to email while I am away. If you require immediate assistance, please contact Lindsay Murdock (lmurdock(a)wiley.com).

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Fwd: from wwwanderers.org (membership Yahoo! group)
by kirby urner Aug. 7, 2006

Aug. 7, 2006

>From kirby.urner(a)gmail.com Thu Aug 03 10:09:09 2006 Received: by 10.78.131.5 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 10:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <f604188c0608031009l3715a995x82d7f99bd1996772(a)mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 10:09:08 -0700 From: "kirby urner" <kirby.urner(a)gmail.com> Subject: Re: [wwwanderers] Language question for Kirby > I know that Kirby is a dyed in the wool Python devotee. However there is a confusing > array of open source scripting languages out there. In addition to Python there are Perl, > PHP, and Ruby. There are probably others that I am not aware of. Can someone give > a quick rundown of the pros and cons of each? Are there niches where one is better > than the others? Is there one that is universally superior? Inquiring minds want to know. Hi Allen -- [I'm fumbling around to change my email address to Google's gmail... better than Princeton's Tigernet for spam filtering and web emailing] We (the hive mind, borg, royal we or whatever) prefer not to call 'em "scripting languages" anymore, as that connotes "only good for slap dash shell scripts like in bash" i.e. "doesn't scale" -- which is a misleading impression (Java marketing might still be pushing the "scripting" label for that reason)... We like "agile languages" or "dynamically typed", meaning they support late binding, introspection, the ability to write new code and execute it on the fly, at run time. None of this declaring types in advance and compiling BS, like in Java or C++ (the so-called system language -- oft used to implement more dynamic VHLLs (e.g. there's a version of Python written in Java, called Jython)). VHLL = very high level language. Yes all that agility comes at a price, slows it down some, but whose time is more valuable, the busy human's, trying to get work done, maintain and recycle code, or the CPU's, cheap cheap? Agile languages are blazingly fast for most workaday applications. If there's really a time-critical bottleneck, there're ways to write just that part in a "system language" (closer to the metal) and invoke that from within your agile bowels (eew). In a web context, if you have high volume traffic, you don't want Python or Perl loading and unloading from memory all the time, so Apache provides various modules for keeping that from happening. PHP's whole original reason for being was to code web sites on the server-side (Javascript and Java applets being client-side in contrast -- Java is server-side too of course, Tomcat etc...). The hallmark of an agile language is it "compiles" to byte codes, a small instruction set more like assembly language, but targeted to run on a Virtual Machine (VM). It's this VM that gets customized for different operating systems, so the byte codes don't have to change e.g. when moving from Linux to Windows to Unix to BeOS etc. Java is like this too, and you've likely heard of Microsoft's "dot net" (.NET): another VM, the Common Language Runtime (CLR) providing the byte codes. There's a new version of Python out there, written in C#, that compiles to .NET, or, on the Linux side of things, to Mono (the open source implementation of the .NET open standard). Perl is undergoing a big revamp these days (to versions 6.x), and plans to emerge more agile than ever. Perl is the huge big brother community at OSCON, with lots of geniuses and superstars, many of whom are right here in Portland (Randal Schwartz of Stonehenge, also the yaml.org guy, Brian, some of the Naked Ape people [1]...). Python is still evolving too, making the big leap to Python 3.x (which will break backward compatibility) in the next couple of years. But Guido emphasizes this leap is nowhere near as big as Perl's.[3] Ruby has gotten pretty big pretty fast, thanks largely to Ruby on Rails (see July issue of Linux Journal). PHP I know a lot less about. Now, to my own biases. As you say, I'm a snake charmer, a citizen of Python Nation, so those are the memes I most know to spread. In Python's favor: it was object oriented from the beginning and implements that paradigm very cleanly. Perl bolted that on later, with the "bless" key word. Ruby, on the other hand, is maybe *too* agile, what with mutable strings and classes you can keep messing with, anywhere in the code.[2] What's also going for Python is a critical mass bandwagon effect where companies are realizing the advantages of exposing "Python bindings" to their various engines. Some Nokia cell phones give users a Python API for writing cell phone applets. Games like Civilization IV and Unreal Tournament (? not so sure about UT). A generic library used by 2D gamers is called SDL, and Pygame gives snake charmers access to that library. 3D gamer coders tend to use OpenGL. That's harder to master, but here again, Python comes through with VPython, notable for its very simple API (3D coding for mere mortals). This is what I used for my HexaPent Studies with Glenn. For full OpenGL, there's PyOpenGL. In sum, I think all of these languages have a bright future, even as newcomers continue to crowd the scene. The world of computer languages is rather ruthlessly Darwinian; making it in the real world outside academia (home to many "toy languages") is a tough row to hoe, and you can be sure those that made it are pretty robust and reliable, good at what they do. All of these languages come with excellent free documentation, plus the languages themselves are free (and open source). Other exciting languages: Haskell, J, Ocaml, plus LISP and Scheme still attract large followings of nerdy theoreticians (I find these less practical for my needs, plus the Scheme people come across as too snobbish). Kirby [1] Naked Ape Consulting (member of POSSE, like my 4D Solutions): http://www.news4neighbors.net/orgs.pl?op=org_view&org_id=173 [2] Re: OSCON 2006, a journalist chatting with Guido: http://business.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/08/01/1234216&tid=18&tid=13… [3] Highly technical comparison of Python with Ruby: http://www.trug.ca/Alex_Martelli's_Python_vs_Ruby_newsgroup_posting

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Python Pedagogy ( re __ribs__ )
by kirby urner Aug. 4, 2006

Aug. 4, 2006

I don't know if I'm the first to think of this, but there's some obvious imagery to employ when teaching about the built-in overloadable Python methods, as a bridge to classes in general: they look like ribs. Think of a Snake: class Snake: __rib__ __rib__ __rib__ __rib__ __rib__ __rib__ But the connotations run deeper. The ribs join to a backbone, which is where a lot of low level reflexes get wired, which is what built-in methods do (react as callables). So we're really building up this class/creature metaphor at the "ascii art" level, as well as conceptually: a strong mnemonic, a cornucopia of relevant associations. Finally, there's a move characteristic of the Bucky-informed brands: we associate ribs with eaves (pun), the idea of a ceiling: on a boat flipped over. Boats are the original hulls (of sea peoples anyway), but brought up on land, and flipped over, they become houses.[1] You may recall "the home" (as a paradigm class) is a another core feature of my emerging Pythonic pedagogy -- except we'll branching out into DwellingMachines (maybe as a subclass of a common ancestor).[2] Kirby [1] R. Buckminster Fuller, Tetrascroll: A Cosmic Fairy Tale [2] """ I think using the home as a paradigm class is propitious, as there's lots of implied complexity, especially once HVAC and AC/DC become a focus (lots of APIs). You have the media room, the pantry, the scullery -- the whole pattern language of places. The Sims gives us visuals. OO gives us implementations. """ http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2006-May/006543.html [Edu-sig] More OO chatter from the Edubuntu box kirby urner kirby.urner at gmail.com Mon May 29 22:32:00 CEST 2006

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Excited about Crunchy Frog
by kirby urner Aug. 3, 2006

Aug. 3, 2006

I'm excited about Crunchy Frog (or whatever Andre chooses to call it), because it signals a growing trend to switch away from dead tree text books, and move to dynamic content, i.e. the web. Kay's big objection, that children have unequal rights as publishers, is still a concern. But more and more, young adults are coming to feel their own power, to make their documents world-readable (some squander this freedom, but that's their privilege). In contrast, the way the public schools were historically imprisoned is becoming more and more evident: a few big states, like California, would use their standards-making powers to serve the interests of big publishing, and steamroll the rest of us into docile compliance. I used to work for McGraw-Hill, which does many good works, but it was just too easy to fall into this "winner take all" mentality. Having California (or Texas) choose your textbook was like winning the lottery. All the smaller states would have to go along, as custom editions would be too unaffordable. A lot of us geeks don't think twice about firing up a projector, downloading Google Earth, or jumping through websites. But your average dark ages poor slob has to slave through chapter after chapter of antediluvean poopka, all in the name of serving some miserable state standards committee. Since when did politicians know better? This business of promulgating standards should be left to the *schools*. As it is, a few quisling academics see fit to collude with the big publishers, because it feeds their egos to dictate a "one size fits all" solution. But as soon as we're done winning the Math Wars (I'd say we've won already, but I'm probably in the minority), we'll be able to bring teachers new freedom: to roll their own, to make a name for themselves, to serve as creative people again, not just as brain-dead apparatchiks in some "hive mind" nomenclatura. Kirby

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Multiple sites ping program
by Fransiska M Argasetya Aug. 3, 2006

Aug. 3, 2006

Hi everyone I am sorry for being such a newbie. I am looking for Python code for a program that pings multiples sites; by either typing their IP or the actual address. Was thinking of maybe having another file with a list of the websites so the program can just get the inputs from this file. I have a ping program that can only ping one site at a time, and therefore have to wait till that one finished before pinging the next one. So I don't really want to enter each manually. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.. =) Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

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