Mailman 3 February 2007 - Edu-sig

Python for Halloween
by kirby urner 21 Oct '07

21 Oct '07

Something about using 'ghost' in place of 'self' in a Shell class (allusion to anime as well). Maybe I did something like this last year (having deja vu again). But I'm realizing edu-sig is no longer a preferred venue for my curriculum writing. I'd rather huddle with MIT, Bruce Sherwood, Alan Kay and play *against* Arthur's team. Arthur, you make too many enemies too quickly and too easily. Even more, I'm into my Portland Knowledge Lab (PKL) business (gotta pay that rent today) and want to make lots of Python and Synergetics teaching cartoons for HDTV (my Saturday Morning meme), with lots of brand name sponsors. But here is not the place to brainstorm in safety. Too many prying eyes and self-appointed kibbitzers. So I'm actually resigning this time. Don't expect me back any time soon. Probably won't be tracking either, at least not with any frequency. For me, it's a tilt towards private lists and closed source development (not exclusively -- I'm still a big supporter of a strong public sector). I'm learning why open source is a bad idea sometimes. I've talked to Stallman about this, though he probably doesn't remember -- I was in his audience in Portland and asked about situations when "they" simply *don't deserve* your best code. But I think more it's a matter of not wanting to show unfinished work (a big no no in Fuller's self discipline, according to 'Critical Path' I think it was). Kirby

2 3

More Pipeline News
by kirby urner 19 Mar '07

19 Mar '07

Appended: a cut 'n paste from Math Forum, fixing one typo. Posted here cuz of the reference to South Africa, home of kusasa.org and the Shuttleworth pipeline (Logo -> Squeak -> Python). On the Logo -> Squeak front, I'm seeing a lot of activity in robotics, making a Squeak front end for controlling robodogs, other kid friendly cuties, e.g.: http://www.bioloid.info/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=MicroRaptor That's good, cuz the Logo and GvR type IDEs, involving controlling an avatar, need to blend towards Immersion Phase (Squeak, Sims, ActiveWorlds...). In the meantime, the Kay Group is thinking to reinvent the wheel and implement the whole show in like just 20K lines of code, intended for pedagogical purposes (not just pie in the sky). http://irbseminars.intel-research.net/AlanKayNSF.pdf More power to 'em, though of course OLPC isn't waiting for that project to finish (I doubt Kay would want it to -- kids need Net access today -- tomorrow is not soon enough). And besides, we already have Python. Kirby Onward: ========== > Part two: how are they going to do it? Can you > you give us a hint as to how the choices will be > presented, under your scenario, and how the children > will choose? > > Haim > Je me souviens Just to butt in, but why not use the present tense? Why all this future tense nonsense? MPG was saying the Net is one promising way we're offering choice (remember choice?), and I'm agreeing, saying our students are choosing even now, even today, to read this and not that, to study this and not that (life is short and you've got to prioritize). Take, for example, the Freedom Toasters now spread across 16 cities in South Africa: brightly colored kiosks where you stick in your blank DVD or CD and then choose from a menu what to burn (LinuxUser & Developer #68, pg. 61). There's choice involved, especially if you just have the one blank CD (can't just grab everything). The canard I'm tired of hearing is that we have to wait for some big wheels to turn, in New York or Detroit or someplace, before choice becomes a reality. At least in *some* regions of the country, we *already* have choice and yes, kids are doing much of the choosing. http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=1534429&tstart=15 Kirby

2 2

Training or cert
by Eric Frost 14 Mar '07

14 Mar '07

I might be taking a job for which there is a need for some python programming, I'm decent at it but no export. I'm sure this question has been asked before but is there some on-line training course leading to a "certificate of completion" so I prove at least a minimal level of Python knowledge instead of just saying "yeah, I know Python". The only thing I've found is this BrainBench but it's 1.5 -- http://www.brainbench.com/xml/bb/common/testcenter/taketest.xml?testId=443 Any other recommendation? Thanks! Eric http://www.xmlelves.com/community

1 1

OLPC: first thoughts on the first keynote at Pycon
by Andre Roberge 12 Mar '07

12 Mar '07

I just attended a great talk on OLPC. I thought I should share my first reactions with folks not fortunate enough to be able to attend. BTW, if anyone feels this is a bit of an abuse of this list, feel free to let me know (I won't be offended). I recognize that these are not well polished notes and perhaps should rather find their way on my blog. The first part was about school and learning - great stuff. Goal: changing the way kids learn (no mention as this point about laptops). Art would have been pleasantly surprised. This was done in a "non-preachy" way, unlike the way some home-schooling advocates present their stuff. (no offense meant to anyone on this list). A big chunk of the talk dealt with technical/hardware issues - all done in a very relevant way, but not exactly relevant for edu-sig. Some excellent reasons were given as to why Python was chosen as *the* development language. There is actually a button on the keyboard which is meant to "display the source"; click on it and you're presented with the actual Python source code used to run the application being viewed/used. The user can then modify the source (like smalltalk I guess, like Paul F. [?] sometimes mentions on this list) and run the modified version. One open issue (as I understand it) is that of finding the "best practice" for plugins. The idea is that the core programs should be as small as possible but easy to extend via plugins. I thought that there already was a "well known and best way" to design plugins - and it was on my list of things to learn about (to eventually incorporate rurple within crunchy). There is a real need to have more people involved in the development. This project presents a real opportunity to "make a real difference" to a lot of kids out there. Overall, I was extremely impressed with the talk - it was a job well done and a fantastic start to the conference. André

8 22

chicago hackmeeting 003 : lateral education
by jake elliott 27 Feb '07

27 Feb '07

hello python edu siggers, apologies if you have seen this information on another channel i'm reaching out for interest in developing the third chicago hackmeeting - a collaboratively wiki-programmed conference slated for march 16,17,18 @ daisychain [dai5ychain.net] in pilsen.chicago.il.us. This hackmeeting is loosely themed around ( processes | projects | practices ) of ( punk | lo-fi | bbs | irc | scriptkiddy ) training+education+skill-sharing. education as a component of a radical social practice + mashing up (h)ac(k)ademics. in other words - would love to host conversations+presentations+workshops on unschooling/electronic_constructivist/etc tactics employed in the projects discussed on this listserv, and of course detailed examination of the projects themselves. the wiki we(|you)'re using to organize the weekend: http://hackmeetingwiki.dai5ychain.net/Hackmeeting003 if you are not in chicago but still have an idea for a discussion/workshop/presentation, propose it on the wiki + someone in chicago will try to pick it up and facilitate it! best, jake

2 1

Re: [Edu-sig] [Python-3000] Pre-PEP: Simple input built-in in Python 3000
by Guido van Rossum 27 Feb '07

27 Feb '07

We implemented this at today's sprint. Andre wrote the transformations for the 2to3 tools, I copied the raw_input() implementation from the trunk back into the p3yk branch. Thanks Andre for your efforts in writing the PEP, pushing for its implementation, and writing the transformations! --Guido On 2/20/07, Guido van Rossum <guido(a)python.org> wrote: > Consider the PEP accepted. > > Regarding the conversion, please do use the sandbox/2to3 framework. > Write me if you have trouble understanding the many examples already > in fixes/. > > On 2/20/07, Andre Roberge <andre.roberge(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 2/20/07, Guido van Rossum <guido(a)python.org> wrote: > > > Why do you want this *before* PyCon? It would be much easier to do > > > this as part of the Py3k sprint. > > > > > > > My main interest was to have, prior to Pycon, the PEP recorded as > > such; it had been close to 2 months since the last post on this issue > > on the list. > > > > As for the actual work, I'd be willing to volunteer to write the > > required code (with test cases) that could be use to do the conversion > > input(...) -> eval(input(...)) > > raw_input(...) -> input(...) > > > > Unfortunately, I will not be participating in any sprints. > > > > André > > > > > > > > > On 2/20/07, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Andre Roberge wrote: > > > > > Any possibility that (some of) the following can be done before Pycon? > > > > > Respectfully yours, > > > > > André Roberge > > > > > > > > I've added the PEP as 3111. I made a few small modifications (and > > > > committed it directly as Accepted) based on Guido's comments in this thread. > > > > > > > > The actual change still needs to be made, though. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Nick. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan(a)gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > http://www.boredomandlaziness.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Python-3000 mailing list > > > > Python-3000(a)python.org > > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-3000 > > > > Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-3000/guido%40python.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) > > > > > > > > -- > --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) > -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

3 2

Re: [Edu-sig] Reloading code (was Re: OLPC: first thoughts)
by Laura Creighton 26 Feb '07

26 Feb '07

In a message of Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:54:15 +0100, Laura Creighton writes: > >Speakingf as swho has maintained a smalltalk interpreter ... > >In a message of Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:25:01 EST, "Paul D. Fernhout" writes: ><skip damn near all of it> > >><guido> >>> Why do you care about avoidung VM changes? The VM changes >>> (incrementally) at each minor Python release. >> >>Just so everyone (especially *me* :-) can use start using it right now, >>including in older versions of Python (like 2.4 etc.). >> >>Of course, I would have to break that bad habit I've gotten into of >>restarting the program every time I make a change -- and it's hard to >>break that habit, even when I use a supplemental tool that lets me reloa >d >> >>Jython modules selectively -- I keep thinking -- I did not have to >>restart. :-) >> >>Still, even with all this, if you are making a GUI and modify the functi >o >>n >>that defines the window, you generally still need to close and open the >>window again. So there remain limits (unless you move to GUIs defined >>interactively like Morphic or PataPata). Just talking about getting most > >>of the benefit. >> > >Ah, because its we have tons of legacy Smalltalk code that was >really well and truly built with the idea that the VM would never >change and we could play tricks on its bytecode forever. Lots of >us did strage and wonderfukl things and now no change to the >byte code, no matter how reasonable on the surface, will break >many things. Stuff that just got stored that weay bwecause, >'why not' and now is stuck in the space that is between >'officially sanctioned' and 'used commonly' for various >vaÃlues of common. > >Its enough tomake smalltalk hackers want to make changes in the >language as never is to change the bytecode. Because everbody >as matters is making their own hacks with live-but-modified bytecode. > >Laura I forgot -- getting rid of this was one of the joys of squeak ....

1 0

Re: [Edu-sig] Reloading code (was Re: OLPC: first thoughts)
by Laura Creighton 26 Feb '07

26 Feb '07

Speakingf as swho has maintained a smalltalk interpreter ... In a message of Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:25:01 EST, "Paul D. Fernhout" writes: <skip damn near all of it> ><guido> >> Why do you care about avoidung VM changes? The VM changes >> (incrementally) at each minor Python release. > >Just so everyone (especially *me* :-) can use start using it right now, >including in older versions of Python (like 2.4 etc.). > >Of course, I would have to break that bad habit I've gotten into of >restarting the program every time I make a change -- and it's hard to >break that habit, even when I use a supplemental tool that lets me reload > >Jython modules selectively -- I keep thinking -- I did not have to >restart. :-) > >Still, even with all this, if you are making a GUI and modify the functio >n >that defines the window, you generally still need to close and open the >window again. So there remain limits (unless you move to GUIs defined >interactively like Morphic or PataPata). Just talking about getting most >of the benefit. > Ah, because its we have tons of legacy Smalltalk code that was really well and truly built with the idea that the VM would never change and we could play tricks on its bytecode forever. Lots of us did strage and wonderfukl things and now no change to the byte code, no matter how reasonable on the surface, will break many things. Stuff that just got stored that weay bwecause, 'why not' and now is stuck in the space that is between 'officially sanctioned' and 'used commonly' for various vaÃlues of common. Its enough tomake smalltalk hackers want to make changes in the language as never is to change the bytecode. Because everbody as matters is making their own hacks with live-but-modified bytecode. Laura

1 0

Ren'Py and Visual Novels games
by francois schnell 25 Feb '07

25 Feb '07

Hello, What about visual novels ? according to a Wikipedia article [1]: """ A visual novel is an interactive fiction game featuring mostly static graphics, usually with anime-style art. As the name might suggest, they resemble mixed-media novels or tableau vivant stage plays. Visual novels are classified as a sub-genre of adventure games, referred to as AVGs in Japan. Visual novels are especially prevalent in Japan, where they make up nearly 70% of PC games released. """ This kind of game are still rare in the EU and US market but they are now coming with title like "Phoenix Wright" [2] and "Hotel Dusk" [3] for the Nintendo GBA and/or DS. I'm not myself a regular 'user' of these games but they could be interesting to consider : - they encourage reading (but in a colorful and multimedia context which helps comprehension) - the kid read at their own pace - it's also often possible to integrate minigames in the Visual Novel itself - user interaction is usually required with different endings Obviously for kids the best educational and fun part is to actual make their own Visual Novel (possibly in a collaborative way): - imagine a story to share if possible with different choices - learn to draw (characters ?) or take pictures of landscapes/scenes/characters or use existing contents - use/create some sound/music - share it with other kids Few hours ago while browsing pygame.org I stumble on Ren'Py framework that I didn't noticed before (they've released a new version - 0.6 - few days ago). See www.renpy.org. I've tested the Demo novel (which explain how it works in a Visual Novel itself) and looked at the website, I like: - very neat end result and nice UI to select, load or edit the script of a Visual Novel - Open Source and Multiplateforme and Python/Pygame based - possibility to include directly some Python code in the easy to learn Ren'Py scripts (a '$' prefix for a single line or 'python:' for a block of code) - possibility to integrate pygame minigames in the novel (there's a Pong game in the Demo novel) - good documentation, cookbook, etc - distribution tool of the visual novels - lively community on their forum I've also noticed someone in the forum 'remaking' a chapter of the original "Phoenix Wright" (with Ren'Py and some Python extras) : it looks to me very near to the quality of the original Nintendo version (with items and people management tool also nicely integrated).[4] So far I like what I've seen :) francois [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_novels [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Wright [3] http://www.wired.com/news/columns/0,72702-0.html?tw=wn_columns_6 [4] http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1767&postdays=0&postorder=…

1 0

Python in a paper on languages for introductory programming
by Atanas Radenski 25 Feb '07

25 Feb '07

A recent paper entitled "An objective comparison of languages for teaching introductory programming" - by Linda Manilla and Michael de Raadt - praises Python as a beginner's language: http://www.it.uu.se/research/group/upcerg/Publications/proceedingsKoliCalli… A comparison is outlined in Section 3, Table 2 in the above paper. The volume that contains the paper was just announced on the ACM-SIGSE list. It can be found here: http://www.it.uu.se/research/group/upcerg/Publications/proceedingsKoliCalli… Atanas -- Atanas Radenski mailto:radenski@studypack.com http://studypack.com mailto:radenski@chapman.edu http://www1.chapman.edu/~radenski

1 0