Mailman 3 July 2007 - Edu-sig

Bionic Snaketalk (proposed metaphorics)
by kirby urner July 20, 2007

July 20, 2007

So I'm thinking of using this analogy today: MOLECULES Data structures, starting from primitive number types, are like the molecules and macromolecules of life, the beginnings of organic chemistry. MICRO-ORGANISMS Functions, recently augmented with generators, are like the unicellular organisms on up to quite a few cells, but still quite simple. SKELETAL CREATURES Classes, though potentially very simple, provide the framework favored by the truly well endowed creatures, like Mammals (yes I'm applying a bias). Example application: In a language like Java, we're always extending the class framework, extending a tree rooted in the foundation object (Python has one too), and spreading overhead into the hugeness of the Java class library (complete with Applet and Swing branches). Someone coming from Java, looking at Python, might exclaim: wow, how prehistoric! The mitochondria still have an independent existence, their own street addresses." What this means of course, is that in Python we still have top level life forms of the pre-class variety, just as we suspect mitochondria used to have independent lives outside the confines of cells. http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/cells/mitochondria/images/mitochondriafigure1.j… [ image of a single mitochondrion, matrix exposed ] Kirby

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Politics and Python in Education (was Re: Python in Secondary Schools)
by Anna Ravenscroft July 19, 2007

July 19, 2007

On 7/17/07, Paul D. Fernhout <pdfernhout(a)kurtz-fernhout.com> wrote: > Essentially, what seems to me to be proposed here is making edusig a > discussion group for "How or why to use Python (as is) for use in the > standard K-12 classroom to meet narrowly defined instructional > objectives?". I'd expand that to: "how or why to use Python in standard k-12 and college classrooms" > The short answer to that implicit question is, as Kirby > implies, that there is essentially no role for Python in the standard > mainstream K-12 classroom (I'd frame it as it's simply too dangerous a > concept :-). Or, as someone else suggests, the other answer to that > implicit question is, learn "Java" if you want a strategic plan because > you can use it to get A.P. credit and save money in college. But those > are not good answers for people who want kids to be empowered, since the > mainstream classroom is mostly not about empowering kids, just like Java > (unlike Python or other dynamic languages like Smalltalk or Lisp or > Ruby) is mostly not about empowering programmers. Kirby has one answer to whether it's possible. Other people have other answers. This isn't the place to get long discussions about it over and over and over and over again. Some of us are tired of hearing about it in nearly every thread. (It's one of the reasons I've not bothered reading edu-sig in months - I don't have time for the extraneous stuph.) I loved the recent threads on scaffolding and on what are appropriate questions and expectations for students who've had a certain amount of python. I would have hated to see them hijacked into political threads. > Still, I could essentially see Guido's point, because some conventional > school staff who otherwise like Python may face issues posting to a list > talking about the future of education (which may appear to threaten > their job), so perhaps ultimately a solution would be to have one list > for "python in mainstream education" and another list for "python for > alternative or future education". Or how about one list on "educational politics" and one on python in education. Oh wait - there ARE already lists on educational politics... how about those who want to discuss that, go to those lists and discuss it there?! And use this list to specifically discuss python in education? At least could we agree to properly lable/relable any threads or tangents as [POLITICS] so those who want to discuss the nittygritty how-to can filter out the political stuph? And those interested in the political stuff can agree to NOT interpose it into threads that aren't about that? -- cordially, Anna -- It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!

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Re: [Edu-sig] Bionic Snaketalk (proposed metaphorics)
by Richard Guenther July 19, 2007

July 19, 2007

In the same way that Python programmers like to compare python to other languages in sheer line count of code (see the page bottom of this example from Peter Norvig), I like to compare the first three or four chapters of beginning programming books about Python to beginning books for other languages. I remember finding a big pile of C++ "introductory" books in our schools storage room. After asking around I found out the school actually had a programming class in the past that "just didn't catch on". Looking at those texts, I can see why.... Luckily, enough time has passes that no students now remember that C++ class anymore. I have more of a "blank slate" to introduce to Python and IDLE. Richard ----- Original Message ---- From: kirby urner <kirby.urner(a)gmail.com> ========snip snip===================== What's cool about IDLE is you're free to interact with the low level components without going to all the work of writing a structured program. The immediacy of the shell is what throws students for a loop sometimes -- they're not used to prodding and poking at this low a level, still think you "have to write programs" in order to explore string.... ========snip snip================== ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting

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Newbie question
by Antoine van Gelder July 19, 2007

July 19, 2007

Guido wrote: > Our plan has three components: > > * Develop a new computing curriculum suitable for high school and college students. > * Create better, easier to use tools for program development and analysis. > * Build a user community around all of the above, encouraging feedback and self-help. > > These components come together in the scientific exploration of the role of programming in > next generation computing environments. > > We intend to start with Python, a language designed for rapid development. We believe that > Python makes a great first language to learn: Unlike languages designed specifically for > beginners, Python is also the choice of many programming professionals. It has an active, > growing user community which has already expressed much interest in this proposal, and > we expect that this will be a fertile first deployment ground for the teaching materials > and tools we propose to create. During the course of the research we will evaluate Python > and propose improvements or alternatives. Please forgive me. I know very little about the history of this forum so I have a small question: Which mailing list should I be subscribed to in order to participate in discussion regarding the component of the plan: "Develop a new computing curriculum suitable for high school and college students." ? There are political considerations which interact with any goals that involve the development of high school and college curricula and if edu-sig(a)python.org is not the place to discuss them I fear I may be in the wrong place! Thank you! :-D - antoine -- "Any organization that designs a system (defined broadly) will produce a design whose structure is a copy of the organization's communication structure." - Melvin Conway

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Re: [Edu-sig] Donated computers, Linux, and IDLE problems.
by Richard Guenther July 19, 2007

July 19, 2007

Thanks to all the responses. I have played around with Ubuntu a little in the past, but will try it again. I'll report back on my progress after much tinkering around, etc. :-) IDLE is very important to me when it comes to teaching Python.... Richard ----- Original Message ---- From: Lloyd Hugh Allen <chandrakirti(a)gmail.com> To: Atul Varma <varmaa(a)gmail.com> Cc: Richard Guenther <heistooheavy(a)yahoo.com>; "edu-sig(a)python.org" <edu-sig(a)python.org> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 5:28:36 AM Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Donated computers, Linux, and IDLE problems. I agree (and this is the time of year that considering how to set up the lab is particularly relevant, for those people who are able to control how their lab is set up). I am using Ubuntu now, and am able to pull up an Idle session by going to the Applications menu, coming down to programming, and choosing IDLE. To install IDLE, go to System --> Administration --> Synaptic Package Manager, search for IDLE, and then go down the alphebetized list to find IDLE (current version). Check it, "apply", and then Ubuntu will grab anything that is missing and install IDLE. There are two drawbacks -- currently my Ubuntu only sees 2.4.3 (I don't know the process to allow the current version to automatically be recognized), and Ubuntu get angry at particular graphics cards. Be very, very careful about updating your video drivers, lest you end up having to reconfigure them and/or X from the console (doable, but not "I'm setting up a lab of 30 computers and need to be ready for class before I go home"able). The good news is that as soon as 2.5.1 has been blessed by the Ubuntu gods, an icon will appear on the menu bar suggesting that you automatically upgrade to it. You can manually update, but then you don't get automatic updates as they are blessed. Good luck, Lloyd Allen On 7/19/07, Atul Varma <varmaa(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Richard, > > Have you considered using Ubuntu? The latest version of the distro > comes with Python 2.5 installed, and IDLE can be easily installed > using the built-in package management system. I've also found that > installing Ubuntu is easier than installing Windows, and its base > configuration is reasonably minimalistic. > > - Atul > > On 7/18/07, Richard Guenther <heistooheavy(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > I'm not sure if this is the best place to post this question, but it > > certainly fits into the edu-sig realm ;-) > > > > I will be sponsoring a high school computer programming club again this > > year. I get older computers donated to me quite often, most in the Pentium3 > > range. Often they have a crippled version of Windows on them, but no > > restore disks, etc. Also, most of these computers will NOT be hooked up to > > the internet. > > > > What I'd like to do is put a simpler LINUX distro on them (MepisLite is my > > current favorite for these situations), and then get Python up and running > > with IDLE working. > > > > But it's not easy! I don't know of a distro yet that comes with a working > > IDLE installed. Whenever I've done the source file dance ("./configure, > > make, make install") with newer versions of Python, I get the common > > PYTHONHOME and PYTHONPATH problems and also can't get IDLE to work. > > > > Any suggestions or advice? > > > > Richard > > > > P.S. I know this sounds like a technical question for a n00b forum, but the > > context of this problem (I'm a teacher trying to set up some convenient > > Python boxes for my students to use) made me think it might be appropriate > > here. If not, I apologize in advance. I am, btw, getting our PCs in the > > computer lab set up with Python (and IDLE) running on Windows, I just wanted > > to put these donated comps to good use.... > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! > > _______________________________________________ > > Edu-sig mailing list > > Edu-sig(a)python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig(a)python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC

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Donated computers, Linux, and IDLE problems.
by Richard Guenther July 19, 2007

July 19, 2007

I'm not sure if this is the best place to post this question, but it certainly fits into the edu-sig realm ;-) I will be sponsoring a high school computer programming club again this year. I get older computers donated to me quite often, most in the Pentium3 range. Often they have a crippled version of Windows on them, but no restore disks, etc. Also, most of these computers will NOT be hooked up to the internet. What I'd like to do is put a simpler LINUX distro on them (MepisLite is my current favorite for these situations), and then get Python up and running with IDLE working. But it's not easy! I don't know of a distro yet that comes with a working IDLE installed. Whenever I've done the source file dance ("./configure, make, make install") with newer versions of Python, I get the common PYTHONHOME and PYTHONPATH problems and also can't get IDLE to work. Any suggestions or advice? Richard P.S. I know this sounds like a technical question for a n00b forum, but the context of this problem (I'm a teacher trying to set up some convenient Python boxes for my students to use) made me think it might be appropriate here. If not, I apologize in advance. I am, btw, getting our PCs in the computer lab set up with Python (and IDLE) running on Windows, I just wanted to put these donated comps to good use.... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/

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sa: 8144: Day Two
by kirby urner July 19, 2007

July 19, 2007

[ Pursuant to: http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2007/07/sa-8144-day-one.html ] I thought I'd do this one in a more premeditated style, outlining my lesson plan for the day, then following up later with a brief report on how I'd deviated from the script, how it all went. That won't be right after class, as I need to report for duty at another job in the early PM, where I've been nominated within a new grant proposal that just *might* involve MySQL and Python. We'll know more in November. Aside (recalling EuroPython 2007): I learned a lot about Pylons from that guy from the Ukraine (the one who uses Mako, hosts a blog site). Now they're saying TurboGears is moving to it, along with SQLAlchemy out the back end (lots of peak interest in the session on Canonical's Storm, just why SQLAlchemy wasn't "mature enough" for Canonical -- I protest "innocent bystander" on that one, not having used either yet (the MySQL keynoter seemed somewhat amused we're so in to our object-relational mappers these days)). My aim is to dive into Python as a language, less context and history, by means of 2-level scaffolding: stickworks.py, introduced in the Showmedo series, and polyhedra.py on top of that. Both get imported to menu-driven demo mods, so you *could* say 3-level, but I'm going to start in the IDLE shell importing stuff just from the first two levels (giving you a capable Vector and Edge, plus some canned data organizing these into familiar enough wireframes (we already talked Icosahedra on the first day)). Get used to low level vector arithmetic & graphics against an XYZ backdrop, in the opening hours. Pythonic Math features a one pass approach, straight to vectors per http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/numeracy1.html By the time we get to viztoyz, povtoyz and x3dtoyz, they'll already be fluent readers of basic Python grammar, complete with classes, functions & generators, and data structures. And this is only Day Two. But these aren't your usual students: a self selecting bunch willing to do something hard in the summer, in a college context, with some Silicon Forest weirdo named Kirby Urner, just back from Vilnius ("where's that again?"). Kirby PS: up early, with a living room full of kids sleeping, so off to the local breakfast nook, but it's closed, because we only *pretend* to be working class in this neighborhood (Richmonders might straggle in from b'fast around 7 AM earliest -- about now in fact, so time to return).

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Proposal: CP4E-sig
by kirby urner July 19, 2007

July 19, 2007

Note: I think it'll be confusing for newcomers to read the following, and then encounter a strict "no politics" ban, only recently instituted and not spelled out on any python.org web page to date: === About Edu-sig English (USA) This list is the starting point for a community around the Computer Programming for Everybody (CP4E) project, and a general meeting place for educators interested in teaching Python. Currently the best description of CP4E is in the DARPA proposal that generated the initial funding. See also the edu-sig homepage. To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the Edu-sig Archives. === edu-sig has always been political (check the archives) and as the text above makes clear, has indeed been focussed on CP4E (I think very productively). This move to suppress political content and refocus the list is a departure from the status quo. I'd like to see this list renamed to cp4e-sig so it might keep its integrity and focus, while those with no stomach for politics start their own (possibly heavily moderated) group. They could even call it edu-sig. But we keep the archives and go forward as cp4e-sig, in alignment with the original mission statement and focus. Until such time as we've expunged all mention of CP4E from the current list's description, I think we should leave it to the list owner, Timothy Wilson, to perform any moderating duties, which might included quietly warning newcomers about the new rules. That's his job. Guido is just another subscriber here and shouldn't be forced into performing duties he's not signed up for. That'll just be confusing to everyone. Kirby

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Re: [Edu-sig] a non-rhetorical question
by Laura Creighton July 18, 2007

July 18, 2007

Late: I have been busy with Europthon In a message of Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:35:17 EDT, Jay Bloodworth writes: >On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 21:46 +0200, Laura Creighton wrote: >> >> Do you have many students who are good at geometry and still rotten >> at algebra? Also what do they say when you ask them 'what don't >> you understand here?' > > >I wouldn't say rotten, but it's not unusual to have students who do >significantly better in geometry than algebra. Again, it could just be >a year of brain maturity that makes that so. I'm curious about this. I don't think I have ever heard about 'brain maturity' -- except in terms of 'reading readiness'. So I have always assumed that if a student was having a really dreadful time learning something, and if it wasn't as a result of having an eidic memory, or a learning disability or some other unique way of experiencing the world, then it was most likely due to lack of relevant pre-requisite experience. And in my case, I built up a model where experience in Geometry is a prerequisite for learning Algebra, which I why I think that one ought to teach Geometry first. Of course, other people may have different ways of teaching Algebra which doesn't depend on a background in Geometry. I'd be really interested in seeing such lesson plans. One hard thing, of course, is to tell whether your students really have no relevant experience in Geometry -- or whether that is the sort of stuff that they have picked up, on their own, simply as part of being in the world. >"What don't you understand?" Usually if a kid can answer that they >don't have a problem: > >Ex: 2x + 3y + 5x = 7x + 3y > >Kid 1: >"Why don't you understand?" >"Where did the 7x come from?" >"From combining like terms. I added 2x and 5x." >"What are like terms?" >"Terms with the same variables to the same powers. 2x and 5x both have >x to the first power and no other variables." Aha. I go after this differently. I give you 2 oranges + 3 apples + 7 oranges. How many oranges do you have? If that doesn't work, try MONEY. It is amazing how many children I know who have problems keeping track of apples and oranges but have no problem with 20, 50, and 100 Kronor notes. Long before we start talking about 'variables' and 'powers' and the like -- which is all part of the 'notationally true' world, we need to nail down the absolute truths about addition that the order in which you add terms does not matter. Which we can then formulate as LAWS about addition. And we have to show that this is different from subtraction, where the order matters, very, very much. To get _more_ notational truths across, I just have them set the variables to things that take a lot of writing. Pretty soon they are sick of writing: 3 refrigerators full of gorrilla food + 12 refrigerators full of penguin chow + 6 refrigerators full of gorrilla food = 9 refrigerators full of gorilla food + 12 refrigerators full of penguin chow and understand perfectly why mathematicians decided they would rather write 3g + 12p + 6g = 9g + 12p Sometimes python is useful here. For the die-hards who don't want to believe that addition is associative: It works for letters. >>> 3 * 'g' + 12 * 'p' + 6 * 'g' 'gggppppppppppppgggggg' >>> They can go count them. And then write a program that counts the number of each letter in a string. Try it with words: >>> 3 * 'orange' + 5 * 'apple' + 2 * 'orange' 'orangeorangeorangeappleappleappleappleappleorangeorange' >>> Writing that program is more interesting. >versus > >Kid 2: >"Why don't you understand?" >"I just don't get it." > >Not a great example, because most students can do a little better with >like terms than Kid 2. But the point is that the "don't get it" kids >I'm talking about can't really tell you what they don't get. They see a >string of symbols on line one and another on line two and claim to see >no connection between them. And though I can often ask a series of >questions to determine what they don't get and to explain it - "Do you >see where the 3y comes from? Good. How about the 7x? Okay, do you see >the 2x and 5x? etc." - they'll still say they don't get it. Yes. I know lots of Kid2s. And they are quite correct. They don't get it. They cannot draw you a picture about it, either. (But if you can get them to draw silly pictures, it may help them get it.) They cannot spot the problem for the notation. It is an abstract way of representing .. what? Nothing they can see as a problem. Most of the Kid2s I have met have a real problem with understanding: Let X be 'refrigerators full of badger steaks'. They need the lesson above. But before I want to do very much more algebra, I want to teach the kid2s how to get out graph paper and draw y = 2x + 17 y = 2x + 4 + 3x and the like: As part of a geometry course, where you construct things. Because then, in addition to other things, they will know that the above are abstract representations of lines. Will your students already know this before you get to teach them? >That was probably a longer yet less complete answer than you were >looking for. Nonetheless, I hope it helps. It helps. Thank you. Sorry that this is so late. Laura > >Jay

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Simple example involving threads and infinite loops.
by Andre Roberge July 18, 2007

July 18, 2007

For those that happen to have downloaded Crunchy (version 0.9x), I have posted a very simple example[1] that illustrate some properties of threads, and possible interactions between them. http://crunchypython.blogspot.com/2007/07/unending-loops-and-magic-of-threa… The idea of threads is something that should be accessible to anyone familiar with using a computer. However, I can not think of a simpler example in any Python environment to demonstrate 1. How threads can allow different parts of a program to work independently - in this case, two different Python interpreters. 2. How interactions between threads make certain things (like breaking of an infinite loop) possible which would not be using a single thread. Of course, the user has to take the teacher's word (or mine) for it when it is stated that the two Python interpreters are running in separate threads. André [1]... and, as is often the case, this example has uncovered a "small" bug with Crunchy which you might get to see...

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