Mailman 3 October 2009 - Edu-sig

Re: [Edu-sig] Summarizing some threads (KIrby again)...
by Laura Creighton Oct. 24, 2009

Oct. 24, 2009

A problem arises when one has to learn new material. For many of us, actually writing the material down makes us retain it better. And for me, at any rate, writing it down in longhand works better for the memorisation of facts than typing things in. I wish I knews of studies of retention like that. I'd really like to know why it is that this is so, in order that we can make sure we do not cheat our students of the tools they need to learn things. It is complicated by the fact that people differ in this matter, from the people with eidic or near eidic memories, who don't understand why people need tricks to learn how to memorise things, to people who can remember things that they read easier than things that they wrote, to people who can remember neither of those well, but do remember the spoken voice well. Why are we like this? Has anybody figured this out yet? Laura

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Summarizing some threads (KIrby again)...
by kirby urner Oct. 24, 2009

Oct. 24, 2009

Those of you frequenting this list for some years will recognize most of these themes. From time to time I like to archive a summary. Principal themes: I. Math Objects (an approach to learning math) II. Objects First (an approach to learning programming) These two go hand-in-hand. Math Objects are traditional concepts such as polynomials, polyhedra, vectors, integers, treated as Types of Thing, i.e. we're making math concepts concrete by distilling the "things" or "types" people have invented over the centuries. One place to begin, familiar to computer science, is to differentiate alpha from numeric types. Objects First means taking the object-oriented philosophy seriously, meaning we're mining everyday (ordinary) human language semantics, wherein we already think in terms of named things (nouns) having behaviors (verbs) and attributes (adjectives). My curriculum anchors Objects (things) in the biological world of biota, animals, creatures, flora and fauna. Then we move to the more abstract types of object of interest in mathematics, polyhedra especially because these are also visible and tangible, forming a bridge to that biological world. Python is especially cool as an OO language because when building a biological creature as a template, one has these special names that look somewhat like __ribs__. The methods stack up providing a backbone or rack of ribs i.e. there's a visual analogy to a creature, a snake in particular, right in the language itself. The Objects First approach doesn't buy into the "ontogeny recapitulated phylogeny" ideology, by which I mean: just because programming languages evolved a certain way doesn't mean newcomers have to traverse the discipline in that same order. Regions new to telephony don't need to install land lines before they go with cell phones -- go straight to cell (straight to OO). Another theme: III. streamlining the teaching of spatial geometry I've separated this last theme out of the mix because it's what sets me apart more than the above and makes me a marginal figure, apparently off my rocker in some way. I passionately believe that we should be taking greater advantage of the streamlining done by the geodesic dome guy, Bucky Fuller, regarding how to compact a lot of geometric information into a compressed data structure he named the concentric hierarchy of polyhedra (meaning you include them inside each other, sort of like Russian dolls -- not a new idea, but the devil is in the details). I won't go into some verbose presentation of III in this post. However I do think when you move from calculators to full fledged computers, then it's time to get off the plane and start taking advantage of those much bigger and more colorful screens. So even if you're highly skeptical of the Bucky Fuller bit, you might stay with me on this notion the polyhedra and spatial geometry will naturally come into vogue as we move beyond calculators and start taking more advantage of computers. I've invested many years developing these ideas and presenting them in cogent form. The materials are open source and on the Internet. Again, it's III that makes me moves me into the "esoteric" category, where I start questioning only using a Euclidean set of axioms, start taking up a "geometry of lumps" and making all sorts of high level connections to Karl Menger (dimension theorist) and Ludwig Wittgenstein (philosopher). I also tend to get polemical, as a lot of positive futurism attaches here, and to the extent the world seems unnecessarily hellish, I get exercised about wasting already stockpiled assets that might make a big positive difference. I inherited this long-running campaign from an earlier generation and have a lot of loyalty to some of my mentors in this area, including but not limited to Bucky Fuller himself. Kirby

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Re: [Edu-sig] Fwd: Archives of messages?
by Laura Creighton Oct. 23, 2009

Oct. 23, 2009

A freind of mine put searching into his mailmain archives. see: http://infothecary.org/jordan/mailman.html If you click on the link to lbo-talk there you can see how it works. It looks as if it would only search one year at a time; this is a mistake, just play with it and see. I'd sort of like to get this kind of functionality into mailman, but i never have the time to get around to it. Laura

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Fwd: Archives of messages?
by Andre Roberge Oct. 22, 2009

Oct. 22, 2009

Sorry - I meant to send this to the list... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Andre Roberge <andre.roberge(a)gmail.com> Date: Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Archives of messages? To: Anna Roys <roys.anna(a)gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 8:10 PM, Anna Roys <roys.anna(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Just wondering about how to poke around in archived messages? Searchable? > Curiosity compels me to ask.... 8) > > One way is to use Google with the site specified as follows: search terms here site:mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig André > Anna > > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig(a)python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > >

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Archives of messages?
by Anna Roys Oct. 22, 2009

Oct. 22, 2009

Just wondering about how to poke around in archived messages? Searchable? Curiosity compels me to ask.... 8) Anna

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test pattern...
by kirby urner Oct. 22, 2009

Oct. 22, 2009

1-2-3 testing. Just testing the archives, seeing how it looks when it gets there. Some thought going into making another Python list with English not the official language (there's only one other meeting that description according to my sources). This might be a good test of anyone's email client. These are working in Gmail (Arabic, Russian, Korean respectively -- feel free to reverse translate using that Google utility -- they all say the same thing supposedly). عقد العزم على أن قوات الأمن الفلسطينية واعتماد التنوع في أعقاب البيان ، ونشرها مع وصلات إلى المواد الإضافية التي تحتفظ بها أعضاء قائمة التنوع : مؤسسة برمجيات بايثون والعالمية بيثون المجتمع الترحيب والتشجيع على المشاركة من قبل الجميع. مجتمعنا هي مبنية على الاحترام المتبادل ، والتسامح ، والتشجيع ، ونحن نعمل على مساعدة بعضهم البعض ترقى إلى هذه المبادئ. نحن نريد لمجتمعنا أن تكون أكثر تنوعا : كائنا من كنت ، ومهما كانت الخلفية الخاصة بك ، ونحن نرحب بكم. Постановил, что НПФ принять следующее заявление разнообразия, и опубликовать его со ссылками на вспомогательные материалы поддерживается членами разнообразие списка: Python Software Foundation и мировое сообщество Python приветствовать и поощрять участие каждого. Наше общество основано на взаимном уважении, терпимости и поощрение, и мы работаем, чтобы помочь друг другу жить до этих принципов. Мы хотим, чтобы наше сообщество быть более разнообразными: кто вы и какова ваша фона, мы приветствуем вас. PSF는 다음과 같은 다양성을 성명을 채택, 해결 및 보조 재료의 다양성을 목록의 구성원에 의해 유지 관리에 대한 링크와 함께 게시 : 파이썬 소프트웨어 재단의 글로벌 지역 사회에 오신 것을 환영 파이썬 모두 참여하시기 바랍니다. 우리 사회의 상호 존중, 관용을 기반으로하고 격려, 그리고 우리는 서로가 이러한 원칙에 사는 다른 도움을 위해 노력하고있습니다. 우리 사회의 더 많은 다양한되고 싶다 : 당신, 그리고 당신의 배경이 무엇이든지간에, 우리는 당신을 환영합니다. Kirby

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Re: [Edu-sig] [Diversity] diversity-sig
by kirby urner Oct. 19, 2009

Oct. 19, 2009

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Aahz <aahz(a)pythoncraft.com> wrote: > On Mon, Oct 19, 2009, Steve Holden wrote: >> >> A little discussion is indeed in order - including when we are going to >> start up the diversity-SIG list to run along the lines of other Python >> SIGs. > > Starting diversity-sig has stalled because of the demands of some people > for clearer rules about list policy. Writing good rules takes time, lots > of time (think about how long it took to create the diversity statement). > If I get a sense that except for the few complainers people are overall > happy with the operation of this list and simply want an open archive, we > can move forward with diversity-sig. I would like some background on what the other SIGs are like besides edu-sig with which I am personally familiar. I think if we already have a semi-closed, semi-private (?) moderated list, then diversity-sig should not just be the same thing all over again with a public archive. Steve's suggestion that we have both lists running in parallel makes a lot of sense. Lets keep this experiment alive. This list (diversity(a)python.org) can stay tightly moderated and clamped down according to some lengthy set of rules that might take a long time to hammer out. It'd be fun for the people here to play by those rules and develop their own little ingrown cocktail party, where they talk about spoons and stuff, develop their own terminology (hard to break into if you're not an insider sometimes). This list is very like a BOF. diveristy-sig, running in parallel, might have no such moderation or rule book. What other SIGs are tightly moderated? edu-sig never has been, since its inception, and is a highly successful list, one of the best. edu-sig does have a community page explaining what the list is about, topic-wise, and does give some background reading and links (so is similar to DiversityInPython in that way, though better organized). I certainly don't think we need the same admin team in charge of both lists! The people who choose one list and not the other are maybe precisely those people wanting to escape the perceived tyranny of the "cocktail party" subculture. If you want Diversity, don't insist on uniformity at the management level. I've posted more about using edu-sig as a role model on edu-sig itself. Kirby > -- > Aahz (aahz(a)pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > Member of the Groucho Marx Fan Club > _______________________________________________ > Diversity mailing list > Diversity(a)python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity >

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Followup re Diversity
by kirby urner Oct. 19, 2009

Oct. 19, 2009

Here's another thread for an open archive. You'll notice this was censored in its original context (couldn't get past the admin group -- four individuals spread across time zones). Academic freedom ala liberal arts culture means edu-sig is actually more open to diverse points of view. Given Pycon Atlanta is swiftly approaching, the idea of a prayer room makes some sense. Kirby ======== ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: <diversity-owner(a)python.org> Date: Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 2:50 PM Subject: Request to mailing list Diversity rejected To: kirby.urner(a)gmail.com Your request to the Diversity mailing list Posting of your message titled "Re: [Diversity] Admin: Kirby Urner now moderated" has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the following reason for rejecting your request: "Your message was deemed inappropriate by the moderator. Aahz: I was going to approve this message -- borderline as it was -- until I got to "dweeb". Feel free to edit and resubmit." Any questions or comments should be directed to the list administrator at: diversity-owner(a)python.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: kirby urner <kirby.urner(a)gmail.com> Date: Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 8:51 AM Subject: Re: Prayer room LCD To: diversity(a)python.org Note: this message was at first rejected by Aahz because of the expletive in the last sentence, which I have removed. It should now be suitable for publication. Kirby ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: <diversity-owner(a)python.org> Date: Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:06 AM Subject: Request to mailing list Diversity rejected To: kirby.urner(a)gmail.com Your request to the Diversity mailing list Posting of your message titled "Re: Prayer room LCD" has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the following reason for rejecting your request: "Your message was deemed inappropriate by the moderator. Aahz: Sorry, if I have to reject what is otherwise a borderline message because you crossed the line, you need to rewrite it to be well within the borderline." Any questions or comments should be directed to the list administrator at: diversity-owner(a)python.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: kirby urner <kirby.urner(a)gmail.com> Date: Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [Diversity] Admin: Kirby Urner now moderated To: Rami Chowdhury <rami.chowdhury(a)gmail.com> Cc: diversity(a)python.org On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 2:47 AM, Rami Chowdhury <rami.chowdhury(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Saturday 17 October 2009 13:52:35 kirby urner wrote: > > If you get an LCD going, you could rotate through the religious icons > > depending on what's on the schedule, with time booked for Subgenius of > > course > What, you mean like a crescent popping up five times a day? I don't think that > would work, personally, although I am definitely pro a prayer room. Can anyone > suggest who I need to approach with the prayer room suggestion? > The point is to show off how geeks are able to share their spiritual side in a conference setting in a smooth multi-cultural way that accepts diversity i.e. if you end up with a separate room for each tradition, that'd probably represent a failure (wasteful, poor design, ineffective). It was already suggested on this list that people coordinate amongst themselves if wanting to visit a local religious establishment e.g. if there's a synagogue or mosque or even Christian church in Atlanta, maybe people could organize going together. Atheists might get together at the same time, along with Rastafarians or whatever. Conference management would have little to do with this, but could at least mention the possibility in the printed program, maybe simply list a few religious institutions nearby, much as many programs already list eateries (restaurants) and pubs -- again, showing some official acknowledgment that geeks have a spiritual side (I'm sorry if the word "geek" is an offense word to some here, however my plan is to keep using it as that's how I talk and I don't think diversity always means giving up one's own native language in exchange for some corporate sani-speak). Intelligent use of LCDs seems a hallmark of the future of geekdom i.e. these conferences are going to make more and better use of them no matter what. Whether this extends to a prayer room setting I have no idea, but it's worth talking about, that's what partly this list is for (right?). In my work with Vern Ceder on the posters (including submissions from user groups, even school children), we've talked about using LCDs more effectively. I brought up Subgenius as one of the traditions I'm involved with and which is already good at producing LCD content in some venues (e.g. the recent Devival I attended here in Portland with some of my friends). Some Python-related events I attend have LCD stuff going (not talking about a usa.pycon necessarily, more home grown, yet perhaps of interest to PSF anyway? Our PPUG meets at WebTrends and the LCDs there show company stuff, in between showing geek slides). Your idea of a crescent popping up five times a day sounds a tad dismissive and if I chose to feel offended, I could easily. I've been to a synagogue that doubles as a Christian church, and the appropriate religious icons come to the foreground just for that service, then go back into their compartments (this is easy because Jews meet on Saturdays and Christians on Sundays). We could have an LCD do somewhat the same thing (time share among traditions) -- really not such a bad idea, especially when it comes to opening one's mind to other traditions besides one's own (the whole point of some conferences) but yes, this idea may be beyond the imaginations of corporate dolts aka pointy haired bosses. I did request of the admin group that I be released from the penalty box (moderation) as many here thought that was a silly development and said so JFTR. Checking my personal email, I so far see no indication that my request has been honored. No one had the common decency to get back to me about my request except to complain that I'd bothered them, apparently during not working hours. I am a PSF member in good standing and know a lot of Pythonistas personally. I take offense at how shabbily I've been treated by this admin group and I must say I've rarely if ever encountered a more amateurishly managed list. If I get another bounce message when I press the send button, then this is further confirmation that diversity(a)python.org is and was a Bad Idea, though it may still have potential if we ever decide to it right and more seriously. diversity-sig anyone? In my view you can't have it both ways: if this is some kind of semi-private "cocktail party" as many claim, then it's not ipso facto and by the same token a policy-making body that should be sending guidelines to speakers, building up stress levels about whether material is "appropriate" or not. I give the PSF list credit for coming up with the Diversity Statement we actually used, with this group doing rather minor word-smithing. The contrast between the two lists is quite interesting, in terms of traffic and what gets done. I think the PSF is already way ahead of this list, in terms of thinking about Diversity (if you haven't been reading my blogs on this topic, then you probably don't know what I'm talking about -- and that's OK). Having "guidelines" show up out of nowhere, with the implication that your career could be damaged if you don't take them seriously, starts to sound Orwellian and many geeks don't take well to having nebulous behind-the-scenes others, just more geeks like themselves, trying to manage content, even in the form of guidelines. By what process were these developed? If it's not perfectly transparent, then maybe it's simply oppressive and should be resisted, not encouraged? The ApacheCon thing didn't look especially welcoming or well thought out. This sense of a lurking "we" that knows everything, is acting as Big Brother when it comes to what's offensive, may be an aspect of that subculture we *don't* want to imitate? We should debate this things, openly (with a public archive bloggers can link to directly), before we simply choose to imitate or copy. Original thinking on diversity issues is what we should be encouraged, not "hey, let's just do what everyone else is doing". We're proud Pythonistas, not dweebs, right? Kirby Urner PSF 09 > > ---- > Rami Chowdhury > "Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information > available." -- Benford's Law of Controversy > 408-597-7068 (US) / 07875-841-046 (UK) / 0189-245544 (BD) > _______________________________________________ > Diversity mailing list > Diversity(a)python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity

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Touting edu-sig as role model for diversity-sig
by kirby urner Oct. 19, 2009

Oct. 19, 2009

FYI, the appended belongs in an open archive as a snap shot of a work in progress (Diversity @ Python.org). I've fixed a couple typos (no wording changes). The list of list owners is public already, so I'm not divulging anything confidential. Given I'm proud of our work here on edu-sig, I think this is an appropriate filing for this group. Note: the current diversity(a)python.org list is closed archive and closely moderated. Anyone can subscribe though. Advance warning: you'll need to bone up on a lot of terminology if you want to sound inner circle (e.g. read up on "spoons"). See the 'Terminology' section on the DiversityInPython page below. There's also a cardinal sin, called "derailing" which will get you an undisclosed amount of time in the penalty box if admin finds you guilty as charged (no rules or due process, welcome to the Wild West!). I've recently been on PSF-members recruiting more people to join threads about developing international signing conventions (giving conference goers a heads up as to content so they don't stumble in to a presentation featuring R-rated cartoons about computer science topics if a minor, to give just one example). We've also been discussing how to accommodate diverse spiritual traditions in the context of Pycons. I've been working with Carl Trachte some on showing off Python's new Unicode abilities (not all text editors are created equal when it comes to exploiting these features). There's also this web page (which I've so far had nothing to do with): http://wiki.python.org/moin/DiversityInPython (pointers to a lot of the standard "diversity lit" -- very little about Python per se) And this one (which I have had something to do with): http://wiki.python.org/moin/CategoryUnicode (way more about Python here -- substantive and relevant) Kirby Urner PSF 09 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: kirby urner <kirby.urner(a)gmail.com> Date: Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 7:30 PM Subject: Re: Re: Your message to Diversity awaits moderator approval To: Catherine Devlin <catherine.devlin(a)gmail.com> Cc: Aahz <aahz(a)pythoncraft.com>, diversity-owner(a)python.org On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 5:56 PM, Catherine Devlin <catherine.devlin(a)gmail.com> wrote: << trim >> > > Because all groups are voluntary, nobody's trapped in a group when it doesn't run their way; the decision on whether to tolerate rules you don't like, or start up a similar group on a different operating basis, or wash your hands of the whole business is yours. > I've already come out in favor of diversity-sig, as have several others, including some of our core players. Have you been paying enough attention to catch those cues? They're subtle sometimes. I don't know what kind of moderation diversity-sig might need, if any. If there's going to be a moderator, we should maybe discuss how to rotate the role. We don't need some Benevolent Diversity Guru for Life certainly (clearly the board has voted on no such position). edu-sig(a)python.org, which I've voluntarily contributed to for many years, along with Guido, Tim Peters, David Scott-Daniels, Laura Creighton, Gregor Lingl and many others, has Timothy Wilson listed as listowner. Even though we've had many fierce debates and arguments, I can't recall anyone ever being placed on moderation or being banned on that list (even when Arthur started saying "fuck you" a few times). There's probably some outright spam that gets cleaned out (for Viagra or whatever). I designed much of the edu-sig page itself then we handed it off to Andre Roberge, the current manager, in the course of a BOF @ Pycon / Chicago this year. http://www.python.org/community/sigs/current/edu-sig/ The archive is open, leaving a valuable legacy. There's no concern about being behind closed doors as a semi-private cocktail party and its easy for bloggers, columnists, emailers, to simply link to any post, without necessitating some login/subscribe process. Various crawlers subscribe to edu-sig and our work has propagated all over the Internet by this means. John Miller's PhD dissertation focuses on edu-sig for its raw material (there's a link to the PDF from that page). Way cool. Successful! Because CP4E stands for "computer programming for *everybody*" you might imagine that diversity has been a theme from the beginning on some levels. > > If the group's goals are important to you, you have to decide whether to tolerate mechanisms you don't like for the sake of the goal. You can certainly ask for a change to the mechanisms, but the answer might be "no". Increasing diversity is definitely a worthy goal and I feel we pursue that on edu-sig and other venues. My impression is that now that we have an official diversity statement, this particular list is not taken seriously and has been marginalized to the point of irrelevance. People post here for entertainment only. No work is getting done. This won't be fixable as long as the current closed archive and capricious admin machinery is left to run in a vacuum without reality checks. That I was suddenly put on moderation over the objections of the very people I was conversing with is of course ridiculous and is further corroding this list's ability to gain traction. The only justification offered to date is the diversity statement itself, which was not yet crafted or voted on when admin started its program of targeted harassment against me. > > Kirby, do you think that having your posts go up immediately and without review is *the* key to having a worthwhile diversity list? If so, I don't think your goals and intents for the list align very well with, well, anybody else's. > I don't think you should be interrogating me in some back office accessible only to list owners. This is inappropriate harrassment of a PSF member. I am keeping this exchange as a souvenir, a fond memory of the ineffective early days when Diversity had no idea how to conduct itself appropriately. > > Some people think the list would work better with you occasionally restrained. I wouldn't really expect you to agree. The question is, do you want to continue cooperating with other people on the diversity topic, even people who think that your participation needs limits to remain positive? "Yes" or "No" are both legitimate answers to that question; the only answer we can't accept is, "No, and the group has to run my way." > > General awesomeness is not the question. We're all awesome people here and we all contribute to the community. (I really REALLY should have spent this time on PyCon publicity instead.) I'm going to stop here. Every minute of argument about list governance is a minute spent not learning, coding, teaching, encouraging, publicizing, or anything else. If "how the diversity list operates" becomes the main topic of the diversity list (and this is the Nth time we have approached that), I will be facing my own decision about whether to just quit... > diversity-sig might possibly undo some of the damage. I remain hopeful that our community will develop more maturity and do the right thing. Make this an open archive endeavor and start with light to no moderation. Use edu-sig as your model (a clearly successful list which I'm proud to have helped keep alive and kicking). > > (If I seem extra-grumpy tonight, sorry; had a laptop smash-and-grab stolen this week, GRRRRR) > Bummer! A friend of mine had his $5K Powerbook stolen when his back was turned from a coffee shop recently. Carrying around expensive equipment is like wearing expensive jewelry, an enticement to muggers. I'm carrying around an Ubuntu Netbook these days (Starling-1 from System76), which goes for under $400, so less heartbreak if it's stolen (or in my case, if I simply lose it or drop it -- the more likely scenario). Kirby > > -- > - Catherine > http://catherinedevlin.blogspot.com/ > *** PyCon * Feb 17-25, 2010 * Atlanta, GA * us.pycon.org ***

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more fun with cards
by kirby urner Oct. 17, 2009

Oct. 17, 2009

The code below isn't stellar, but has some pedagogical value nevertheless. In general, I'm looking at constituting a deck of 52 cards, or 54 with two jokers, this time with each card an object. In a C struct, you could imagine the suit (e.g. Diamond), rank (e.g. Jack) and value (e.g. 11) all having their own slots, which is pretty much what we're doing here. A Deck object is a list of cards, not a dictionary, as sequence matters. Shuffling is automatic upon deck creation, which somewhat deviates from brick and mortar cards, but oh well. Other features: use of break keyword to escape from a loop in a loop, difference twixt __str__ and __repr__ ribs. I'd call this intermediate Python in that we're assuming fluency with modules like random and native functions like zip, also show off a privacy feature (using _ and/or __ as a method prefix). Use of decorators might be a next topic, starting with @property. As I've been discussing off list, I'm vested in going with cards, dice, games of chance often associated with gambling. I am well aware that a home schooling minority don't want their kids exposed to a shady underworld associated with Prohibition and Chicago gangsters. I suggest Ruby might be better for those households. When I mailed PSF snake back to Virginia yesterday, the UPS clerk shuddered in horror, didn't want to look in the satchel even when I told her what was in it, a quite harmless stuffed totem (she was in Portland for DjangoCon, to meet Django Pony). The baby Adonis (by now a lanky lad given how snake years fly by) is staying behind in Portland to learn more from our team. He's currently studying the J language, having semi-mastered his native tongue. http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315@N00/3951018867/in/photostream (One Laptop per Snake -- OLPS). Kirby ================== from random import shuffle thesuits = ['Hearts','Diamonds','Clubs','Spades'] theranks = ['Ace'] + [str(v) for v in range(2,11)] + ['Jack','Queen','King'] thevalues = zip(theranks, range(1,14)) class Card: def __init__(self, suit, (rank, value)): self.suit = suit self.rank = rank self.value = value def __repr__(self): return "Card(%s, %s)" % (self.suit, (self.rank, self.value)) def __str__(self): return "%s of %s" % (self.rank, self.suit) class Deck: def __init__(self, numcards = 52): self.numcards = numcards self.cards = [] self._populate() shuffle(self.cards) def _populate(self): have = 0 self.cards = [] for suit in thesuits: for value in thevalues: self.cards.append( Card(suit, value)) have += 1 if have == self.numcards: break if have == self.numcards: break def __repr__(self): return "Deck(%s)" % self.numcards def __str__(self): return str([str(card) for card in self.cards]) def test(): thedeck = Deck() print str(thedeck) if __name__ == '__main__': test()

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