I guess my own view at this time is Alice is harmless so long as it doesn't motivate any major changes to Python itself (in the direction of dumbing it down, under which heading I'd file case insensitivity). I think being anti anything is an inherently weaker stance than being pro something of your own (not a dig at either Arthur or Guido, as both are fonts of creativity). So I think the best way to keep the bunny rabbits from running amok is to continue elaborating a curriculum through which Python interweaves, as a language, be that through music, math, GUI design, XML or whathaveyou. Lots not leave the stage to Alice alone. Computerworld is absolutely brimming with riches, is my experience. It's a similar experience to going into a Hollywood Video outlet: even if they stopped making new movies today, it'd take a lifetime to just see what we've already got. Of course matters of taste arise, and the subset of the total inventory you'd consider "gems" would only partially overlap mine. Like, what about ToonTalk? A gem! (say I). To be fair to Alice, I personally haven't used it enough to say anything strongly pro or con, nor studied the background literature as thoroughly as Arthur has. I've played with it some. I'm glad it's around. I hope people keep evolving and using it, or stealing good ideas from it. But I don't think it should be allowed to stereotype or typecast Python in education. Typecasting is always a danger (something which happened to Xbase, to its lasting detriment). Finally, I'm very glad many people are working on Python- related projects with an eye to education that are quite different from my own. My slant is useful and valuable, I would claim (most would agree), but it's not the one and only, or be all and end all. I'm especially interested in the music angle, as I think math and music, which used to be taught together, belong in closer association down the road. And of course Arthur's PyGeo is right in the same neck of the woods as my stuff in a lot of ways, an inspiration and source of encouragement. Kirby PS: unrelated question for which I've never gotten an answer: is it true that the Mac version of IDLE doesn't apply color coding to key words? That seemed to be the case when I installed from Mac binaries to an iMac recently, a 2.0 beta version. Answers welcome.